brand new would love this [Archive]

Justin_stacy

06/15/03, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by Ronin
Socialism as an ideal is devoid of oppression. Yes, its structure does indicate the need for a central authority, but according to its tenets, that authority is temporary and will be dissolved once true communism is reached. What Stalin instituted ((and Mao emulated) was not true Socialism, they became corrupted by power.

Oh yes, and our planet has never actually seen Communism.

whether or not the system has been put forth for its totally intend objective.....does not change the fact that its ideas have been used to oppress millions of people over the years (not to mention, the set up of both will ALLOWS lead to corruption of power, at least in the real world).........

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
2 to 3 generations.........wow...........s ee socialism works!!!

...........also the original statement was done in a joking manner, i personally thought it was pretty obvious.......

Ronin

06/16/03, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
whether or not the system has been put forth for its totally intend objective.....does not change the fact that its ideas have been used to oppress millions of people over the years (not to mention, the set up of both will ALLOWS lead to corruption of power, at least in the real world).........

...........also the original statement was done in a joking manner, i personally thought it was pretty obvious.......

I'm not arguing that it hasn't been used to justify some heinous acts, but so has Christianity.

I know you were joking dude, just sticking up for the red menace.

Justin_stacy

06/16/03, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Ronin
I'm not arguing that it hasn't been used to justify some heinous acts, but so has Christianity.

I know you were joking dude, just sticking up for the red menace.

.........yes but the difference is that some (most) of what christianity preaches has been put to good use.....unlike communism whos ideas have done nothing but lead to death and distruction (ie nothing positive)..........also Christianity in 2,000 years has caused far less deaths then commumism has done in a little more then a hundred years............

papathomas

06/16/03, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by Ronin
I'm not arguing that it hasn't been used to justify some heinous acts, but so has Christianity.

I know you were joking dude, just sticking up for the red menace. don't point the finger at christianity. there is many other religions that have been used to justify war for political and econmic purposes. although, christianity is probally at the top of the list.

Ronin

06/17/03, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
.........yes but the difference is that some (most) of what christianity preaches has been put to good use.....unlike communism whos ideas have done nothing but lead to death and distruction (ie nothing positive)..........also Christianity in 2,000 years has caused far less deaths then commumism has done in a little more then a hundred years............

I think you're probably pulling that stat out of your ass.

I'm thinking inquisitions, slavery, the conquering of other nations, the crusades, witch hunts, etc.

Far less deaths? MAYBE less, but not FAR less

And most of the deaths under communism can be traced back to a single man, Stalin. Approximately 10 million people (though that may be a conservative estimate) died as a direct result of his dictatorship. It was Stalin's methods that resulted in so many bodies, not the ideology of communism and socialism. Nowhere in these doctrines does it say that the loss of life is necessary. Later Soviet leaders drastically pulled back from Stalin's Draconian measures.

Justin_stacy

06/17/03, 05:02 AM

Originally posted by Ronin
I think you're probably pulling that stat out of your ass.

i didn't give you any stats, its called an opinion, based on rational knowledge of both..........but i will find some stat if possible if you want one.......also if they are close like you say, i think it should be again noted that ones been around for 2000 yrs and one for only 100+ yrs..............

heres communism......... http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.TAB1.GIF

heres the types............. http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.FIG2.GIF

why dont you find one on christianity.......i dont think it will be to hard.........

Justin_stacy

06/17/03, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by Ronin

And most of the deaths under communism can be traced back to a single man, Stalin. Approximately 10 million people (though that may be a conservative estimate) died as a direct result of his dictatorship. It was Stalin's methods that resulted in so many bodies, not the ideology of communism and socialism. Nowhere in these doctrines does it say that the loss of life is necessary. Later Soviet leaders drastically pulled back from Stalin's Draconian measures.

one man can not cause 10million deaths (although stalin/communism caused 50+ million deaths during his reign....), there are always helpers, much like in nazis germany (i think hitler has been a proven killer of only 3 people), and it was the corruptablitly of communism and power it gives to an elite few, that allowed for these people to turn in to the monsters they became.......

evil zach

06/17/03, 07:20 AM

You can't blame any deaths on communism, has it has never been put into practice. The following people are or wer not communists:Vladamir Lennin, Joseph Stalin, Moa Tse-tung, Fidel Castro, NIkita Krustchev, Lenoid Brezhnev, Pol Pot, Mikial Gorbacheve, Jim Jong Il.

The following people are
Karl Marx, Fredrick Engels

I don't know enough about Ho Chi Mihn, so I wont comment.

But my point is, Communism has never been put into practice on any sort of notable scale ever. All of these self proclaimed communist leaders were (and are) just infact opourtunists who were (are) very capitalistic in nature. Stalin even went so far as to sign treaties with Nazi Germany. I don't know about you, but I have yet to meet any TRUE communist who is willing to buisness with facists.

Ronin

06/17/03, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by evil zach
You can't blame any deaths on communism, has it has never been put into practice. The following people are or wer not communists:Vladamir Lennin, Joseph Stalin, Moa Tse-tung, Fidel Castro, NIkita Krustchev, Lenoid Brezhnev, Pol Pot, Mikial Gorbacheve, Jim Jong Il.

The following people are
Karl Marx, Fredrick Engels

I don't know enough about Ho Chi Mihn, so I wont comment.

But my point is, Communism has never been put into practice on any sort of notable scale ever. All of these self proclaimed communist leaders were (and are) just infact opourtunists who were (are) very capitalistic in nature. Stalin even went so far as to sign treaties with Nazi Germany. I don't know about you, but I have yet to meet any TRUE communist who is willing to buisness with facists.

Lenin and Trotsky were closer to being true communists than all the others, who followed the Stalinist version (i.e. forced collectivisation, rapid industrialisation, etc).

But Zach's dead on. Communism, as intended by Marx, has never really been seen. The deaths atrributable to Stalin's policies and iron-fisted rule are from a peverse ideology several times removed from that of communism, which was technically Stalin's personal version of socialism. That system was copied by most other nations in which the communist party came to power, so it is essentially no longer communism.

From what I've read in the past (and this is something I've actually read a fair amount about), those numbers you posted are a little off.

Justin_stacy

06/17/03, 08:47 AM

but you also forgot to ment that NAZISM is not true facism......nazis were far more socialst then any thing..............but also me and Roinn (i hope i got that right) weren't talking about "true" communism as the evil (although it is), but how the ideas it teach have been used to oppress and murder........

bossydacow

06/17/03, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
but also me and Roinn (i hope i got that right) weren't talking about "true" communism as the evil (although it is), but how the ideas it teach have been used to oppress and murder........

as much as I disagree with the ideals of communism, I have to point out that it hasn't always been used as a way of oppression or murder. Dorothy Day was a communist, or rather, an "economic communist" as she would call herself, and then used communist ideas mixed with Catholicism to start the Catholic Worker movement. She dedicated her life to helping the needy.

evil zach

06/17/03, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
but you also forgot to ment that NAZISM is not true facism......nazis were far more socialst then any thing..............but also me and Roinn (i hope i got that right) weren't talking about "true" communism as the evil (although it is), but how the ideas it teach have been used to oppress and murder........
oh yeah, those socialist are definetly known for privatizing buisnesses, persecuting other socialsits, etc.

BrandNewDream

06/17/03, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
not only is it an insult, but its probably the WORST one............i personally cant imagine a person favoring such an oppressive form of control, not to mention that its one step away from the worst thing that this planet has ever seen...communism......

are you an idiot? first off, why be so provincial in your views? have you ever even considered living under a different form of government? or are you one of those "america is the best, and that's all there is to it" types? and secondly, if you're going to state your views, present them as such: YOUR VIEWS . people like you piss me off.

BrandNewRock05

06/17/03, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by BrandNewDream
are you an idiot? first off, why be so provincial in your views? have you ever even considered living under a different form of government? or are you one of those "america is the best, and that's all there is to it" types? and secondly, if you're going to state your views, present them as such: YOUR VIEWS . people like you piss me off.
I have lived under several different types of goverments. All of them representative democracies or republics, but the truth of the matter is, capitalism and democracy is the fairest way possible, explain how it is not fair.

evil zach

06/17/03, 01:08 PM

Divides people according to wallet size...It allows a few to prosper off the labour of many...puts the bosses profit ahead of the workers wellbeing...

WithStamin

06/17/03, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by evil zach
Divides people according to wallet size...It allows a few to prosper off the labour of many...puts the bosses profit ahead of the workers wellbeing... Capitalism is "You decide your fate". You're not told what to do or how to do it; you're on your own.

.&$

06/17/03, 03:53 PM

Communism basically says "Everyone is Equal". Bullshit. Some people are just born smarter, wittier, more cunning than others. Why should these talanted people (assuming they all have some sort of work ethic) have to be resigned to a life of mediocrity? True, communism can eliminate poverty, but at the same time it stagnates people so they cant prosper beyond a certin point. No big houses, no cool cars. Just the same ol' shit as everyone else on the block, and in the entire country. Fuck that, man. Basically all I'm trying to say is the gods shouldnt be held down by the clods.

Ronin

06/17/03, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by WithStamin
Capitalism is "You decide your fate". You're not told what to do or how to do it; you're on your own.

You're born into certain class structure that's hard to break free from. Yes, with hard work you can probably rise above it, but is it fair that some kids are born wealthy and others born into stagnant poverty?

Don't pretend that these kids all get an equal chance until our system.

I'm not saying that communism is the answer, I'm just saying that capitalism has its flaws, it's not perfect, and we need to examine the infrastructure and work out the bugs.

Ronin

06/17/03, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by .&$
Communism basically says "Everyone is Equal". Bullshit. Some people are just born smarter, wittier, more cunning than others. Why should these talanted people (assuming they all have some sort of work ethic) have to be resigned to a life of mediocrity? True, communism can eliminate poverty, but at the same time it stagnates people so they cant prosper beyond a certin point. No big houses, no cool cars. Just the same ol' shit as everyone else on the block, and in the entire country. Fuck that, man. Basically all I'm trying to say is the gods shouldnt be held down by the clods.

People with skill aren't held back

Yes, under Stalin's system people were often relegated to jobs simply because the state needed them there, and their skills were wasted.

But the basic tenet of true communism is "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" (paraphrased). If you've got the intelligence to beceome an aerospace engineer, then you'll be an aerospace engineer. If you're good at digging ditches, then you're digging ditches.

Justin_stacy

06/17/03, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by BrandNewDream
are you an idiot? first off, why be so provincial in your views? have you ever even considered living under a different form of government? or are you one of those "america is the best, and that's all there is to it" types? and secondly, if you're going to state your views, present them as such: YOUR VIEWS . people like you piss me off.

well i be soooooo sorry i pissed you off mista.........little old me doesn't know how to be as smrt as you be, please excuse my ignorance...................and to answer your question, NO, theres is not a day that goes by that i would wish to live under another form of government, my own government now is to "left" for me......

Justin_stacy

06/17/03, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by Ronin

I'm not saying that communism is the answer, I'm just saying that capitalism has its flaws, it's not perfect, and we need to examine the infrastructure and work out the bugs.

i dont think any one would disagree with you on that, things can allows be improved.......but i think capitalism is still the only justifiable and fair form of governing/economics man has thought up..........

Ronin

06/17/03, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by BrandNewDream
if you're going to state your views, present them as such: YOUR VIEWS . people like you piss me off.

This is a politics forum, it's all about presenting your views you fucking ass ninja.

What are your views? Do you think abortions RAWK, or are they like OMG WTF?!?!??!?!?!

People like YOU piss me off, ignorant prick.

BrandNewRock05

06/18/03, 04:26 AM

Originally posted by Ronin
You're born into certain class structure that's hard to break free from. Yes, with hard work you can probably rise above it, but is it fair that some kids are born wealthy and others born into stagnant poverty?

Don't pretend that these kids all get an equal chance until our system.

I'm not saying that communism is the answer, I'm just saying that capitalism has its flaws, it's not perfect, and we need to examine the infrastructure and work out the bugs.
Those kids have the same chances as pretty much everyone. Public schools dont care if you make 15 cents a year or 80 million dollars. The majority of kids go to public schools. I would consider myself to be wealthy, but I live comfortably. My dad has enough money to pay for my college if he wanted to, but he wont, he wants me to do it the way he did. And its not like I jack off in school and barely pull a C average, no I have a 3.8. So I have to take out student loans and pay my way through college. Now how could my financial status help me there. If you come from a poor house, that doesnt mean you cannot get good grades in high school. Getting good grades is solely based on effort, will, and smarts, and occasionaly some ass kissing. But my point is, anybody can succed in public schools. From there they can get scholarships, or take out student loans, like I will. My college will be paid entirely by scholarships and student loans, which I MYSELF will pay off. So how is it any different for me than someone else. Its not.

And as for Captitalism is the fairest way things will ever work. If you work hard, you get results. Its just like excercizing. If you excersize every day and lift and run and do all that, you will have a health body and be in shape. If you sit on your ass every day, watch Jenny Jones, eat cheese curls, drink beer and jack off, you will turn into a lard ass eventually. Capitalism is just like that. Communism on the other hand is just fucking retarded. You would have those people who work hard to achive their rock hard abs and their toned tricepts and what not and then you would have your mastubating Jenny Jones watcher. Both get the same results. Lazy people corrupt the system, just like they do in capitalism with welfare and all, but i kind of think that welfare is Communism-Lite. Lazy people would make any communistic nation, or anarchy, go down in flames. Its human nature, so dont give me that bullshit that everybody would try.

BrandNewRock05

06/18/03, 04:28 AM

Ronin

06/18/03, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
Those kids have the same chances as pretty much everyone. Public schools dont care if you make 15 cents a year or 80 million dollars. The majority of kids go to public schools. I would consider myself to be wealthy, but I live comfortably. My dad has enough money to pay for my college if he wanted to, but he wont, he wants me to do it the way he did. And its not like I jack off in school and barely pull a C average, no I have a 3.8. So I have to take out student loans and pay my way through college. Now how could my financial status help me there. If you come from a poor house, that doesnt mean you cannot get good grades in high school. Getting good grades is solely based on effort, will, and smarts, and occasionaly some ass kissing. But my point is, anybody can succed in public schools. From there they can get scholarships, or take out student loans, like I will. My college will be paid entirely by scholarships and student loans, which I MYSELF will pay off. So how is it any different for me than someone else. Its not.

And as for Captitalism is the fairest way things will ever work. If you work hard, you get results. Its just like excercizing. If you excersize every day and lift and run and do all that, you will have a health body and be in shape. If you sit on your ass every day, watch Jenny Jones, eat cheese curls, drink beer and jack off, you will turn into a lard ass eventually. Capitalism is just like that. Communism on the other hand is just fucking retarded. You would have those people who work hard to achive their rock hard abs and their toned tricepts and what not and then you would have your mastubating Jenny Jones watcher. Both get the same results. Lazy people corrupt the system, just like they do in capitalism with welfare and all, but i kind of think that welfare is Communism-Lite. Lazy people would make any communistic nation, or anarchy, go down in flames. Its human nature, so dont give me that bullshit that everybody would try.

Holy fucking long post batman. You're gonna make me work for this aren't you?

1) public schools dont care how much you make, but private schools do (and people who go to private schools are obviously getting more privileges down the line, unless they fuck up bad) and so do employers (sometimes). say a kid whos family is scraping by on welfare goes into a job interview. He's probably shabbily dressed, and the employer will often be dissuaded from hiring them because of it (discriminatory, yes, but also the reality of the situation).

2) Not everyone is like your family. Many kids blow all of their parents money and end up with a 1.0 in college, coasting through. I think that's despicable, but again, it's the reality of the situation.

3) Your family's financial status influences your status in university. you'll have to take my word on this one. I go to the most expensive university in canada (still cheaper than most US universities of course) and the place is full of rich kids. Profs fast-track these kids.

4) Scholarships don't flow like water. If a poor kid works his ass off, but just falls short of a scholarship, he has no recourse. There is financial aid for disadvantaged kids, but i dont think it's nearly enough to cover tuition (at least it isn't in Canada)

And capitalism...
A man works hard, gets into a law firm, makes big bucks
A woman works hard, get into a law firm, makes big bucks, but significantly less than her male counterpart

This is a statistical fact shown again and again. Women (and minorities) are paid less for equal work. Capitalism is fair?

And I think you have a skewed view on the real tenets of communism. By real, I mean the works of Marx and Engels. I don;t know if an internet search will turn up anything of real substance, but give it a shot.

BrandNewRock05

06/18/03, 06:14 AM

Originally posted by Ronin
Holy fucking long post batman. You're gonna make me work for this aren't you?

1) public schools dont care how much you make, but private schools do (and people who go to private schools are obviously getting more privileges down the line, unless they fuck up bad) and so do employers (sometimes). say a kid whos family is scraping by on welfare goes into a job interview. He's probably shabbily dressed, and the employer will often be dissuaded from hiring them because of it (discriminatory, yes, but also the reality of the situation).

2) Not everyone is like your family. Many kids blow all of their parents money and end up with a 1.0 in college, coasting through. I think that's despicable, but again, it's the reality of the situation.

3) Your family's financial status influences your status in university. you'll have to take my word on this one. I go to the most expensive university in canada (still cheaper than most US universities of course) and the place is full of rich kids. Profs fast-track these kids.

4) Scholarships don't flow like water. If a poor kid works his ass off, but just falls short of a scholarship, he has no recourse. There is financial aid for disadvantaged kids, but i dont think it's nearly enough to cover tuition (at least it isn't in Canada)

And capitalism...
A man works hard, gets into a law firm, makes big bucks
A woman works hard, get into a law firm, makes big bucks, but significantly less than her male counterpart

This is a statistical fact shown again and again. Women (and minorities) are paid less for equal work. Capitalism is fair?

And I think you have a skewed view on the real tenets of communism. By real, I mean the works of Marx and Engels. I don;t know if an internet search will turn up anything of real substance, but give it a shot.

1) I am talking public schools, the majority of kids. Everybody is equal in the eyes of public school. Just because Joe's dad pays more taxes to the school than Jack's dad, Joe doesnt get a better education. And for god's sake you can buy a decent looking shirt anywhere for 8 bucks. Not a fortune, and how do you get that money? Go get a job at McDonald's first. I could walk into McDonalds in my underwear and get a job, they dont care.

I'll get to the rest later, but i have to go.

bossydacow

06/18/03, 07:05 AM

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
My college will be paid entirely by scholarships and student loans, which I MYSELF will pay off.

which college is this?

BrandNewRock05

06/18/03, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by bossydacow
which college is this?
University of Oregon

BrandNewRock05

06/18/03, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by Ronin
Holy fucking long post batman. You're gonna make me work for this aren't you?

1) public schools dont care how much you make, but private schools do (and people who go to private schools are obviously getting more privileges down the line, unless they fuck up bad) and so do employers (sometimes). say a kid whos family is scraping by on welfare goes into a job interview. He's probably shabbily dressed, and the employer will often be dissuaded from hiring them because of it (discriminatory, yes, but also the reality of the situation).

2) Not everyone is like your family. Many kids blow all of their parents money and end up with a 1.0 in college, coasting through. I think that's despicable, but again, it's the reality of the situation.

3) Your family's financial status influences your status in university. you'll have to take my word on this one. I go to the most expensive university in canada (still cheaper than most US universities of course) and the place is full of rich kids. Profs fast-track these kids.

4) Scholarships don't flow like water. If a poor kid works his ass off, but just falls short of a scholarship, he has no recourse. There is financial aid for disadvantaged kids, but i dont think it's nearly enough to cover tuition (at least it isn't in Canada)

And capitalism...
A man works hard, gets into a law firm, makes big bucks
A woman works hard, get into a law firm, makes big bucks, but significantly less than her male counterpart

This is a statistical fact shown again and again. Women (and minorities) are paid less for equal work. Capitalism is fair?

And I think you have a skewed view on the real tenets of communism. By real, I mean the works of Marx and Engels. I don;t know if an internet search will turn up anything of real substance, but give it a shot.

1) See the other post

2) Strings can be pulled to get in, but that is usually by an elite few at elite colleges. Plus you can get into college through connections, but not graduate solely with a wallet.

3)My family's financial background has nothing to do with my admission, I am paying in full the entirety of college unless I recieve some sort of scholarship. My parents say they will not hold any financial responsibility for me after high school, so why would that fast-track me.

4)Scholarships are fairly abundant. Not the full ride scholarship, but you may pick up 2 grand, its a start. There are also things called student loans, people need to stop bitching and just take out a damn loan and pay it off later, it has an extremely low interest rate. Plus if you do something with the military, they will pay for the entirety of you college for only 4 years of service, pluce there are ROTC and stuff like that.

And there may be instances were men get paid more than women, but also the opposite as well. Guys dont have tits. Therefore if they are a waiter, they dont make as many tips, proven fact, tits=tips. But it is much more fair than a communistic system. Is it fair to pay the lawn worker the same amount as a lawyer, I think not.

BrandNewDream

06/18/03, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by Ronin
This is a politics forum, it's all about presenting your views you fucking ass ninja.

What are your views? Do you think abortions RAWK, or are they like OMG WTF?!?!??!?!?!

People like YOU piss me off, ignorant prick.

What I meant, dickweed, was not to present your opinions as if they were facts...obviously, in a politics forum views will be presented...thanks for pointing that out, i wasn't sure of it...and as for my views...

I believe abortions should be legal, however only extreme cases (rape, incest)...I know that you should be "clearly on one side or the other", but in this case, I am not. I favor the death penalty. Our national defense is fine where it is. The war in Iraq was necessary, without or without the WMD. Our welfare system needs to help people find jobs and keep them. I favor personal privacy over national security. Our borders need to be under stricter regulations. That's about it for now...if there's anything else you'd like to know, just post.

Ronin

06/18/03, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
1) See the other post

2) Strings can be pulled to get in, but that is usually by an elite few at elite colleges. Plus you can get into college through connections, but not graduate solely with a wallet.

3)My family's financial background has nothing to do with my admission, I am paying in full the entirety of college unless I recieve some sort of scholarship. My parents say they will not hold any financial responsibility for me after high school, so why would that fast-track me.

4)Scholarships are fairly abundant. Not the full ride scholarship, but you may pick up 2 grand, its a start. There are also things called student loans, people need to stop bitching and just take out a damn loan and pay it off later, it has an extremely low interest rate. Plus if you do something with the military, they will pay for the entirety of you college for only 4 years of service, pluce there are ROTC and stuff like that.

And there may be instances were men get paid more than women, but also the opposite as well. Guys dont have tits. Therefore if they are a waiter, they dont make as many tips, proven fact, tits=tips. But it is much more fair than a communistic system. Is it fair to pay the lawn worker the same amount as a lawyer, I think not.

1) Some kids dont have access to good school. And I do mean public schools. Schools in the inner city don't have the same educational standards as others. And these kids often have no viable means of attending a different school

2) Can't graduate solely on influence? George W. Bush is not a smart man. I can't remember where he went...Yale? I have one prof that got his Ph.D from the same school as Bush (albeit years earlier), and he rants all the time about how Bush could never have gotten through on his own.

3) You might not be using your family's financial status as a stepping stone, and that's a good thing, but other people do. And it works.

4) Student loans are an option, this is true. I can't really comment much on the American system, because I'm not really familiar with it. But here, student loans won't cover all of your necessary expenses.

Women, on average, get paid less than men for the same jobs. That's a statistic that's been proven many many times. Yes, there are jobs where women will get more (i.e. stripping), but overall, men get more, and that's where we see the inequality.

Oh yeah, BrandNewWetDream, or whatever your name is. You've got views, good for you, I bet you watch lots of CNN and maybe you even saw Bowling for Columbine. You're a newbie, so instead of coming on here and bitching out the intelligent people who post, why don't you add your infinite wisdom to some of the conversations. Nobody here is presenting their opinion as absolute fact, we're debating. Take your pre-pubescent rage out somewhere else unless you're going to be contributing. And take that dildo out of your ass.

BrandNewRock05

06/18/03, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Ronin
1) Some kids dont have access to good school. And I do mean public schools. Schools in the inner city don't have the same educational standards as others. And these kids often have no viable means of attending a different school

2) Can't graduate solely on influence? George W. Bush is not a smart man. I can't remember where he went...Yale? I have one prof that got his Ph.D from the same school as Bush (albeit years earlier), and he rants all the time about how Bush could never have gotten through on his own.

3) You might not be using your family's financial status as a stepping stone, and that's a good thing, but other people do. And it works.

4) Student loans are an option, this is true. I can't really comment much on the American system, because I'm not really familiar with it. But here, student loans won't cover all of your necessary expenses.

Women, on average, get paid less than men for the same jobs. That's a statistic that's been proven many many times. Yes, there are jobs where women will get more (i.e. stripping), but overall, men get more, and that's where we see the inequality.

Oh yeah, BrandNewWetDream, or whatever your name is. You've got views, good for you, I bet you watch lots of CNN and maybe you even saw Bowling for Columbine. You're a newbie, so instead of coming on here and bitching out the intelligent people who post, why don't you add your infinite wisdom to some of the conversations. Nobody here is presenting their opinion as absolute fact, we're debating. Take your pre-pubescent rage out somewhere else unless you're going to be contributing. And take that dildo out of your ass.

1) If a kid goes to school in east compton, and he gets a 4.0, thats just as good as a 4.0 from any other school in the nation. Its all based on how hard a kid wants to work, and also, unforunentaly, this kid also has affirmitive action working in his favor as well, I do not support it, but its there, might as well put it to use.

2) George Bush is not a dumb man. He graduated from Harvard Business School. Nobody can graduate from Harvard Business School and be dumb. You can get into Harvard by pulling strings, but to get out with a diploma you have to be pretty damn smart. Senator Edward Kennedy was expelled from Harvard. And as for the professor claiming Bush was retarded, he is just an angry liberal man who will say anything for attention and a chance to knock on conservatives. And even if that was the case I did say an elite few have enough money to do such a thing, your average student, even upper-class richer kids do no have that kind of money or influence.

3) As I just mentioned, a fraction of a percent of students are rich enough to have that sort of influence.

4)Student loans are for everything from tuition to books to room and board. And all at a low interest rate, nothing stopping you from getting a college education except yourself.

And props on that BrandNewWetDream, thats great. That kid gets on my nerves too.

Justin_stacy

06/18/03, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Ronin
1) Some kids dont have access to good school. And I do mean public schools. Schools in the inner city don't have the same educational standards as others. And these kids often have no viable means of attending a different school

but inner city (in the usa at least) schools get more money per student then suburban schools, so couldn't it be said that its there parents fault for electing incompotent people to run the schools? And just for shits and giggles what party controls most inner cities? i'll help ya it starts with a D... :)

Originally posted by Ronin 2) Can't graduate solely on influence? George W. Bush is not a smart man. I can't remember where he went...Yale? I have one prof that got his Ph.D from the same school as Bush (albeit years earlier), and he rants all the time about how Bush could never have gotten through on his own.[/B]

no offense to your teacher but that was purely an opinion, based most likely on political views rather the truthful knowledge.........and no offense to you but he is smart and probably smart then both you or me.............

BrandNewRock05

06/18/03, 05:40 PM

bump this so ronin can read my response, its a couple up there

Justin_stacy

06/18/03, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
bump this so ronin can read my response, its a couple up there

bump.........so that brandnewrock05 name isn't on top.........haha

Ronin

06/18/03, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
bump this so ronin can read my response, its a couple up there

Oh man, too much politics for one night, I'll respond tomorrow.

But that prof I mentioned, he's an internationally reknowned academic, and he's actually a conservative. But yeah, obviously since he doesn't know Bush, it's all opinion so it doesn't hold much (if any) weight

BrandNewRock05

06/18/03, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Ronin
Oh man, too much politics for one night, I'll respond tomorrow.

But that prof I mentioned, he's an internationally reknowned academic, and he's actually a conservative. But yeah, obviously since he doesn't know Bush, it's all opinion so it doesn't hold much (if any) weight
We will finish tommorow. And there is no such thing as a conservative professor, maybe he's a liberal who believes in the death penalty, and he is considered the Hitler of the campus, but there is no such thing as a conservative professor. And I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic in that last point, but his opinion doesnt hold any water, maybe Bush wasnt the Einstein of the class, but I guarentee you he would whoop yours, mine or anyone on here's ass in any sort of debate. He's a smart guy, not really cunning like Clinton, but smart. Cunning is just a nice way to say decieving by the way.

Ronin

06/18/03, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
And there is no such thing as a conservative professor, maybe he's a liberal who believes in the death penalty, and he is considered the Hitler of the campus, but there is no such thing as a conservative professor.

No offense man, but that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard anyone say.

devin

06/18/03, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
We will finish tommorow. And there is no such thing as a conservative professor, maybe he's a liberal who believes in the death penalty, and he is considered the Hitler of the campus, but there is no such thing as a conservative professor.

Talking out of your ass is lovely and all, but that is absurdly stupid. At Princeton, my school, we have a faculty member who is an arch-conservative. Robert George even writes for the National Review. Oh yeah, and he's on the board of the campus conservative magazine. But I guess he's just masquerading huh?

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-george110802.asp

edited to add a link.

Justin_stacy

06/18/03, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Ronin
No offense man, but that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard anyone say.

:)

BrandNewRock05

06/19/03, 04:48 AM

Originally posted by Ronin
No offense man, but that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard anyone say.
OK, so there are conservative professors. But you have to admit that the VAST majority of professors are liberals. I made a generalization, god forgive me. But we are getting off track, you said you would respond to my four points that I made, so lets go, I wanna hear what you have to say to them.

Ronin

06/19/03, 05:44 AM

1) Kids in inner city schools dont have the same type of access to learning materials. Less computers, lower quality books, and a much less safe/conducive learning environment.

2 & 3) You can't really judge this, you're not in university yourself dude. When you get there, you'll see that money talks. If it does in Canada, then I'm sure it does in the US. It makes a difference

4) Yes, scholarships are a good thing, and if you're bright enough to get one, good job. But consider two kids, one from a poor family, one from a rich. Both have good grades, good enough to get into college, but nothing stellar. Neither gets a scholarship, but who goes to university? It's been proven (and it's obvious) that university graduates are more likely to get a job(albeit not by much these days, at least not just a bachelors degree) and a better paying job than their uneducated counterparts. This ends up propagating the vicious cycle of poverty.

Justin_stacy

06/19/03, 06:04 AM

Ronin

06/19/03, 06:07 AM

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
OK, so there are conservative professors. But you have to admit that the VAST majority of professors are liberals. I made a generalization, god forgive me. But we are getting off track, you said you would respond to my four points that I made, so lets go, I wanna hear what you have to say to them.

Yes, the vast majority of well educated people are liberal, I won't argue with that
:D
Kidding

Justin_stacy

06/19/03, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by Ronin
Yes, the vast majority of well educated people are liberal, I won't argue with that
:D
Kidding

thats just because the more book smarts you get, the less ability you have to think for your self, and thats what liberals love.......:D

BrandNewRock05

06/19/03, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Ronin
1) Kids in inner city schools dont have the same type of access to learning materials. Less computers, lower quality books, and a much less safe/conducive learning environment.

2 & 3) You can't really judge this, you're not in university yourself dude. When you get there, you'll see that money talks. If it does in Canada, then I'm sure it does in the US. It makes a difference

4) Yes, scholarships are a good thing, and if you're bright enough to get one, good job. But consider two kids, one from a poor family, one from a rich. Both have good grades, good enough to get into college, but nothing stellar. Neither gets a scholarship, but who goes to university? It's been proven (and it's obvious) that university graduates are more likely to get a job(albeit not by much these days, at least not just a bachelors degree) and a better paying job than their uneducated counterparts. This ends up propagating the vicious cycle of poverty.
1)Kids in the inner city get more money per student than suburbian kids. They have the same opportunity. And if they lack computers and whatnot, teachers do not expect kids to have computers, meaning it cancels out, meaning the ability for good grades is still possible. 30 years ago schools didnt have computers, yet kids managed to get A's back then too, whats wrong with doing it today? And I'll give you the safe enviroment thing, but thats no reason not to get good grades.
2,3)Money talks, yes. But not only money gets the job done. Most kids in universities do not have super rich parents, meaning money hold no real advantage to most kids.
4)Both can go to a university. Again I stress student loans. Student loans will cover all college expenses. Also the military is an option for college. You know my pot head 7-11 uncle that I bring up all the time? His daughter is just the opposite of him, smart and determined, but she has the burden of being brought up in a shit house. She still wants to go to college and her grades are a fairly good 3.5. She is letting the Navy pay for four years of school in exchange for four years of service, and you still get paid for your service during those four years. Its a steal basically. Plus you can make a career out of the military. And the military is an option for EVERYONE. The military doesnt care if you are black or white, man or woman, rich or poor. Just dont tell them you are gay.

And as for that liberals=intelligence thing. Education=money usually, correct? Why is it that conservatives are thought of ass rich pricks? Just a thought, ha ha.

Ronin

06/19/03, 08:43 AM

1) You do well in school, but I would imagine you don't go to an inner-city public school. Neither of is is really capable of judging this, but as I seem to recall, inner city schools score lower on standardized tests. This can't be due to lack of intelligence in the school, because the capacity for intellect is a trait that you're born with.

2) Again, compare 2 cases. Kid in university with good grades, poor family, and another kid with equally good grade, rich family. Often the rich kid is presented with more opportunities.

4) I don't know anything about student loans in the states, but here they can often be difficult to get. Beaureucratic red tape and whatnot.

i wish education meant money. it gets you more money than if you just had a high school diploma, but most people with their ph.d still aren't paid so well. If they did, I'd take the easy route and go to grad school.

devin

06/19/03, 09:38 AM

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that I am the only person on the boards going to an Ivy-league school. Well, over half of the students at Princeton came from private schools. Sure, that doesn't mean that they are all rich. My best friend at Princeton went to Collegiate, the oldest school in the country. His class had about 60 kids, and 9 of them are at Princeton. Most of the others are strewn about the remaining ivies. We have lots of politician's family members, Lauren Bush and Harrison Frist coming to mind. Even the public school students tend to come from upperclass districts. Princeton is typical of top-tier schools. The vast majority of students come from money.

WithStamin

06/19/03, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by Ronin
1) You do well in school, but I would imagine you don't go to an inner-city public school. Neither of is is really capable of judging this, but as I seem to recall, inner city schools score lower on standardized tests. This can't be due to lack of intelligence in the school, because the capacity for intellect is a trait that you're born with.

2) Again, compare 2 cases. Kid in university with good grades, poor family, and another kid with equally good grade, rich family. Often the rich kid is presented with more opportunities.

4) I don't know anything about student loans in the states, but here they can often be difficult to get. Beaureucratic red tape and whatnot.

i wish education meant money. it gets you more money than if you just had a high school diploma, but most people with their ph.d still aren't paid so well. If they did, I'd take the easy route and go to grad school.
1. You have the exact same chance to suceed in a inner city school as you do in a better school. However, people with poorer backgrounds and poorer parents tend to go to these schools. There's nothing that can be done about bad parenting.

2. And that's the way it should be. Hard work has rewards; one of those rewards is greater opportunity for your children.

Education is necessary in nearly every well-paid job. However, if you get a good education but don't do the right things after college, you still won't make a ton of money. On average, though, an education will make you a lot more money than no education.

BrandNewDream

06/19/03, 10:57 AM

[i]
Oh yeah, BrandNewWetDream, or whatever your name is. You've got views, good for you, I bet you watch lots of CNN and maybe you even saw Bowling for Columbine. You're a newbie, so instead of coming on here and bitching out the intelligent people who post, why don't you add your infinite wisdom to some of the conversations. Nobody here is presenting their opinion as absolute fact, we're debating. Take your pre-pubescent rage out somewhere else unless you're going to be contributing. And take that dildo out of your ass. [/B]

Good point, I've realized that I forgot about getting my feet wet and dove in head first. My mistake. And by the way, don't take this as ass kissing. Just a respect for the rules of the board. No one enjoys pointless posts, and this is the last one I'll be making.

Ronin

06/19/03, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by BrandNewDream
Good point, I've realized that I forgot about getting my feet wet and dove in head first. My mistake. And by the way, don't take this as ass kissing. Just a respect for the rules of the board. No one enjoys pointless posts, and this is the last one I'll be making.

Good stuff dude

And WithStamin

Just because your parents worked hard and did well for themselves, doesn't mean you should be given opportunities that other kids aren't. You have to work hard as well, that's only fair. Two people who work equally hard should get the same rewards.

And people with the most education (scientists, professors, etc) earn less money than the average accountant, who only has a CPA (not THAT hard to get). Contrast the difficulty between a business course and a chemistry course. If knowledge made you money, you'd see alot of physicists driving Mercedes, but you don't. I think the amount of money you earn has more to do with your desire to make money, your ambition. But there's nothing wrong with that.

BrandNewDream

06/20/03, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by WithStamin
1. You have the exact same chance to suceed in a inner city school as you do in a better school. However, people with poorer backgrounds and poorer parents tend to go to these schools. There's nothing that can be done about bad parenting.

2. And that's the way it should be. Hard work has rewards; one of those rewards is greater opportunity for your children.

Education is necessary in nearly every well-paid job. However, if you get a good education but don't do the right things after college, you still won't make a ton of money. On average, though, an education will make you a lot more money than no education.

1. I used to think like you. I was looking at things in a "tunnel vision" way, leaving everything up to the person. But, over time, I did indeed realize that there are things that are out of the student's control. If I'm living in the ghetto of say, Chicago, getting my welfare check every 1st of the month, I'm not going to afford to go to private school. I'm going to go to the inner-city school that i'm assigned to. And at these schools, you see over-crowded classrooms, out-dated textbooks, and sub-par supplies. I see it in my area, I live about 5 miles from New York City. Luckily, I live in a city with a good school district, and was educated fairly well. And just a question...how can you categorize poor backgrounds and poor parents as bad parenting? As I said above, there are some things that are out of a person's control.

2. I agree with Ronin, a better opportunity is a great thing to give to your child, however, it should not equal a born laziness within your child. A good parent teaches their kids the value of and rewards spurred as a result of hard work.

And lastly, an education is indeed required. However, an education is not always one recieved inside the walls of a high school or university. I know a few people who have only a high school education or might have even dropped out of high school and they are doing quite well for themselves. One of the problems with education today is that it needs to stop being looked at in the most traditional sense of the word.

bossydacow

06/21/03, 04:20 AM

I think that, even if some inner city kids have positive role models despite poor schooling, there is some invisible factor that holds them back from succeeding. Its very difficult to escape the inner city life - its an entire different world than what any of us suburban kids can comprehend. I read this article a couple of months ago in school - it gives hope, yet at the same time angers me. Its a good read though:
http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/sp2002/callahan.html

.&$

06/21/03, 04:54 AM

Originally posted by Ronin
Good stuff dude

And WithStamin

Just because your parents worked hard and did well for themselves, doesn't mean you should be given opportunities that other kids aren't. You have to work hard as well, that's only fair. Two people who work equally hard should get the same rewards.

And people with the most education (scientists, professors, etc) earn less money than the average accountant, who only has a CPA (not THAT hard to get). Contrast the difficulty between a business course and a chemistry course. If knowledge made you money, you'd see alot of physicists driving Mercedes, but you don't. I think the amount of money you earn has more to do with your desire to make money, your ambition. But there's nothing wrong with that.

true. but communism isnt exactly fair related to what you do vs. what you earn either. in Cuba, a bellhop working one of the beach resorts makes more than a doctor in a poor part of Havana. i dont care how speedy you get peoples bags checked and into their rooms, no bellhop deserves to make more than a doctor!

BrandNewDream

06/21/03, 05:51 AM

Originally posted by bossydacow
I think that, even if some inner city kids have positive role models despite poor schooling, there is some invisible factor that holds them back from succeeding. Its very difficult to escape the inner city life - its an entire different world than what any of us suburban kids can comprehend. I read this article a couple of months ago in school - it gives hope, yet at the same time angers me. Its a good read though:
http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/sp2002/callahan.html

I read that article, and while you feel for these kids, and as much as they want to try and get out of their current life, who knows if they ever will? It's all they know...One can speak volumes about determination and hard work...but, as i've said a few times now, there are just things that are uncontrollable to a person. Reaching 18 or 21 is an actual accomplishment for these kids...Me, I'd be mad if i died before hitting 75. As bossy said, it is an entire different world than anyone from the suburs can comprehend. Even the kids in my town...we have projects, and a ton of people who consider themselves "ghetto"...but all of them survive, and 18 is a normalcy here...most of them have no idea what it's like to live in the inner city.