North Korean Nuclear Test

[preppyak]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061009/ap_on_re_as/koreas_nuclear

This is pretty big, if it indeed did occur, as it verifies North Korea's nuclear program

[concernedparent]

Scary.

[preppyak]

Scary.

I remember saying this in the General Forum thread...it's not so much scary now as it will be if they continue to refuse to join talks.

I had always thought that this test, and their program in general, was a way of making the US joing one-on-one talks with them...with the inherent goal of recieving economic benefits from the US in return for stopping their nuclear production. Now that they have gone through with the test, they have shifted that reality...

The US policy is this, we are no longer in a deterrence mind frame, we are working to abolish nuclear warheads in general, but, we are also developing our own arsenal with smaller, more exacting tactical weapons, in essence, under the theory we could win a Nuclear war. This is pretty much the worst thing that could happen to us...but, it's understandable from a military aspect.

Now that another country gets added to that mix...one that jeopardizes several things (Most importantly Japan and their willingness to not build their army)...the US is pushed ever further away from Deterrence, and the possibility of nuclear war increases.

With countries that we consider terrorist nations building Nuclear Weapons, or trying too...we are forced to consider the possibility of actually engaging in nuclear war. Our old theory of deterrence only works when you assume a rational enemy, one that feels threatened by it's complete destruction upon launching an attack, and terrorism assumes irrationality. So, in turn, the minute we begin to believe that a nuclear war is a viable, winnable alternative...the possibility of nuclear war increases ten-fold.

In that sense...it's really fucking scary. My Nuclear Theory professor deemed our class "A Semester In Hell", since he said that nobody knows what hell is like, but, he assumes that a Nuclear War is the closest thing possible.

[selftitled85]

why would we be afraid? kim jong il would dare not attack the us unless he signed his will. he wants it to ensure no one will try to invade which now no one probably will.

the only thing that really is threatening is if he decides to become feisty and try to sell nukes to terrorists...if he does this then there could definitely be large problems.

but seriously...lets look at the history of nukes

us blows up japan.
russia (a country with a bigger army and maybe even a bigger war machine tests nukes)
world enters cold war
threat of nuke war reaches pinnacle at cuban missile crisis
india and pakistan fight war over borders.
india tests nuke
pakistan tests nuke
tension lowers in areas beside kashmir
soviet union collapses
north korea gets nukes
number of nukes used to attack people: 2 by us...0 everywhere else

it is a last resort and will only be used if instigated. north korea doesnt have first or a second strike capability at this point in time. people love to overreact.

[concernedparent]

The way I see it, UN are fucking pussys who don't follow through. If I remember correctly, based on my watching and reading of the news, they claimed they weren't going to take harsh action if north korea launched a test nuclear missile, and they did, and the UN isn't planning to do anything harsh. The UN isnt viewed as a threat.

[notoaststereo]

very scary

[basementsong]

The way I see it, UN are fucking pussys who don't follow through. If I remember correctly, based on my watching and reading of the news, they claimed they weren't going to take harsh action if north korea launched a test nuclear missile, and they did, and the UN isn't planning to do anything harsh. The UN isnt viewed as a threat.
It seems they say they'll take action on just about everything you see in the news, yet nothing ever seems to get done.

[MotionIsntMeaning]

why would we be afraid? kim jong il would dare not attack the us unless he signed his will. he wants it to ensure no one will try to invade which now no one probably will.

the only thing that really is threatening is if he decides to become feisty and try to sell nukes to terrorists...if he does this then there could definitely be large problems.

but seriously...lets look at the history of nukes

us blows up japan.
russia (a country with a bigger army and maybe even a bigger war machine tests nukes)
world enters cold war
threat of nuke war reaches pinnacle at cuban missile crisis
india and pakistan fight war over borders.
india tests nuke
pakistan tests nuke
tension lowers in areas beside kashmir
soviet union collapses
north korea gets nukes
number of nukes used to attack people: 2 by us...0 everywhere else

it is a last resort and will only be used if instigated. north korea doesnt have first or a second strike capability at this point in time. people love to overreact.

Overreact? I think the threat of a nuclear arms race in east Asia is a pretty serious thing.

[selftitled85]

Overreact? I think the threat of a nuclear arms race in east Asia is a pretty serious thing.

who else would get involved in a nuclear arms race? only south korea. south korea has pretty much no military...there is no threat of one.

[swirlofhues]

kim jong il is a psycho that needs to be shot because he's one of the worst dictators in the world. he wouldn't care about the wellbeing of his people, he's a hothead that would go to any means to get what he wants. what a child. i would never trust him with nulcear weapons and this news just makes it all the more unsettling that he's testing.

[FScott]

well I tend to think that Iraq is a bigger threat:-|

[MotionIsntMeaning]

who else would get involved in a nuclear arms race? only south korea. south korea has pretty much no military...there is no threat of one.

Japan would most likely be one of the first targets if North Korea decided to strike. Japanese take this threat very seriously and have the capabilities to quickly develope nuclear arms if threatened. China and Russia are also affected by the threat and they currently have nuclear arms. As for South Korea, dont underestimate them. Their totally military size (including reserves) is twice the size of the American military.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

Kim Jong Il = extra-strength crazy

[selftitled85]

Japan would most likely be one of the first targets if North Korea decided to strike. Japanese take this threat very seriously and have the capabilities to quickly develope nuclear arms if threatened. China and Russia are also affected by the threat and they currently have nuclear arms. As for South Korea, dont underestimate them. Their totally military size (including reserves) is twice the size of the American military.

JAPAN?

japan is a country that has an army smaller than 100,000 because of constraints put into the constitution. hence why japan has beceome the industrial power...they pretty much put no money into the military.

japans military IS the us military pretty much. so if north korea ever attacked japan we would destroy them.

[catscradle]

JAPAN?

japan is a country that has an army smaller than 100,000 because of constraints put into the constitution. hence why japan has beceome the industrial power...they pretty much put no money into the military.

japans military IS the us military pretty much. so if north korea ever attacked japan we would destroy them.

you honestly believe that Japan wouldn't form/develop an army when threatened with hostility? A culture like theirs, that values pride so much, wouldn't subject themselves to be dependent upon another power if they are being threatened in such a way.

If Japan feels directly threatened by this, i think you'd be pretty surprised at how quick they would change their constitution to form a substantial military presence in their country.

[a speedo model]

shit...

[youcomebeforeyo]

NK is going to become the worst country to live in in the world after this if it wasn't already. I'm imagining the sanctions applied due to this test will cut it off almost entirely from the world economy.

[FScott]

isn't there already many sanctions against North Korea, wouldn't surprise me if they started buying nuclear materials and such from Iran or perhaps use Iran as a middle man

[FScott]

Hard to say what is going to happen but I'm starting to believe that the world is just going to have to live with nuclear north korea

[petey536]

this is going to just get worse and worse

[selftitled85]

NK is going to become the worst country to live in in the world after this if it wasn't already. I'm imagining the sanctions applied due to this test will cut it off almost entirely from the world economy.

sanctions wont do anything. nk is so terrible off BECAUSE it doesnt interract with the outside world. putting sanctions can only hurt when there is something that is important. there is nothing we, nor the eu, nor africa or russia...the only country that may...and i dont think they do much anymore is china.

[FScott]

pretty much. the international community feeds the people of NK which is sad.

[youcomebeforeyo]

sanctions wont do anything. nk is so terrible off BECAUSE it doesnt interract with the outside world. putting sanctions can only hurt when there is something that is important. there is nothing we, nor the eu, nor africa or russia...the only country that may...and i dont think they do much anymore is china.

There is interaction, it's limited but i'm pretty sure all of it will be cut off. I think the global response will be along the lines of deprive the population to such an extreme that eventually they topple the government themselves. NK isn't stable on the inside, there is massive famine and a lack of a middle class. These are two essential factors in which are needed to create an uprising but I don't know if it will come soon.

[ThatGuy]

china will lay the smack down to north korea if they try anything.

sometimes i wonder if this information is reported just so they can raise the terror level and sneak more policy under the public's noses

[FScott]

Call me crazy but I really don't think that NK will do anything ridiculous (so long as they are not attacked), after the fall of Communist Russia I think NK felt defensless and isolated (especially after being labeled one of the three members of the "axis of evil") since they relied heavily on the Soviet Union. So they build the bomb which gives them leverage and power. Now Iran on the other hand is who I'm most concerned with perhaps because there is still time to streer them away from nuclear proliferation and most important because they openly support terrorism and if they do have the bomb this could lead to nuclear terrorism which is even scarier.

I also do not forsee any kind of arms race in Asia, Japan even stated today that building the bomb was not on their agenda.

[justinevans]

china will lay the smack down to north korea if they try anything.

sometimes i wonder if this information is reported just so they can raise the terror level and sneak more policy under the public's noses

3 simultaneous nukes will lay the smackdown on China.

Lil' Kim is a crazy mother fucker.

[rocktometal]

why would we be afraid? kim jong il would dare not attack the us unless he signed his will. he wants it to ensure no one will try to invade which now no one probably will.

the only thing that really is threatening is if he decides to become feisty and try to sell nukes to terrorists...if he does this then there could definitely be large problems.

but seriously...lets look at the history of nukes

us blows up japan.
russia (a country with a bigger army and maybe even a bigger war machine tests nukes)
world enters cold war
threat of nuke war reaches pinnacle at cuban missile crisis
india and pakistan fight war over borders.
india tests nuke
pakistan tests nuke
tension lowers in areas beside kashmir
soviet union collapses
north korea gets nukes
number of nukes used to attack people: 2 by us...0 everywhere else

it is a last resort and will only be used if instigated. north korea doesnt have first or a second strike capability at this point in time. people love to overreact.

great responce, and of course your right. no one wants to use a nuke because it would set off a chain reaction that might lead to them getting nuked.

[ThatGuy]

3 simultaneous nukes will lay the smackdown on China.

Lil' Kim is a crazy mother fucker.

yeah, maybe. I doubt NK has the balls to do that though

[preppyak]

The way I see it, UN are fucking pussys who don't follow through. If I remember correctly, based on my watching and reading of the news, they claimed they weren't going to take harsh action if north korea launched a test nuclear missile, and they did, and the UN isn't planning to do anything harsh. The UN isnt viewed as a threat.
The UN has no ability to be a threat, they employ no military power. The reality is that unless all the nations unify behind a cause and agree to act on it, the UN has very minimal ability to anything.

Overreact? I think the threat of a nuclear arms race in east Asia is a pretty serious thing.
Especially in India and Pakistan, where it is so volatile and close by.

China is largely dormant as a threat there, they have just equipped themselves with enough nukes to provide a threat to any nation attacking them, and no further than that.
well I tend to think that Iraq is a bigger threat:-|
haha

[preppyak]

china will lay the smack down to north korea if they try anything.

sometimes i wonder if this information is reported just so they can raise the terror level and sneak more policy under the public's noses
It is important news, for reasons someone said above, if they would sell those nuclear arms to the wrong people...

isn't there already many sanctions against North Korea, wouldn't surprise me if they started buying nuclear materials and such from Iran or perhaps use Iran as a middle man
Hard to say what is going to happen but I'm starting to believe that the world is just going to have to live with nuclear north korea
Yeah...they actually don't have the economic ability to build a massive arsenal.

In fact, the US has frozen most of NK's out of country accounts, so they are in even more dire straights in terms of money, so the chance they accomplish anything more than a few useless, and probably poorly accurate nukes, is slim

[selftitled85]

china will lay the smack down to north korea if they try anything.

sometimes i wonder if this information is reported just so they can raise the terror level and sneak more policy under the public's noses

what new policy would they implement now?

[FScott]

The leaders of NK are known to be crazy but they know what they are doing. They know the US is pinned down and that obviously all we can do is make bluffs and empty threats because if the US does launch on nuclear labs and sites a million north koreans and scud missiles would cross the dmz killing millions of americans and south koreans. I guess the same could almost be said with Iran. We do not have much support in dealing with the iranians, if we did launch dozens of military factions would cross the iranian and Iraqi border. Its almost like the 2 states are playing off eachother when attention is directed to either. Iran uses oil as leverage while NK uses nuclear weapons. They're both quite clever.

While this is going on it also puts pressure on the US to give up on Iraq to focus attention elsewhere.

[youcomebeforeyo]

I don't think Kim Jong Il is crazy. He's at a point where he has almost nothing to lose. The country doesn't have enough food to feed itself, fuel to run it's economy and survives entirely on a fear state basis.

By provoking the world he's taking his last actions into hoping the world will make consessions to him. He will only ever launch a nuke if he wants to sign his will, not even China will stand for a nuclear war with North Korea.

Troops on both of NK's borders are now doing exercises based on nuclear and chemical weapons scenarios.

[ThatGuy]

what new policy would they implement now?

whatever tickle's team bush's dick i suppose

[justinevans]

whatever tickle's team bush's dick i suppose

I want to be on Team Bush, I need my dick to be tickled.

[clace]

try this one on for size


http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2006/10/11/afx3082407.html

everyone is fucked

[justinevans]

try this one on for size


http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2006/10/11/afx3082407.html

everyone is fucked

well I guess it is a good thing their nuclear weapons don't work.

We don't care that North Korea has them. We care more about the possibility of them selling them.

[xglassjawx]

NK are idiots.

[aminorthreat55]

great responce, and of course your right. no one wants to use a nuke because it would set off a chain reaction that might lead to them getting nuked.
Might? If North Korea were to ever attack us, they'd better have a few hundred nukes, because otherwise they will be blown off the globe by us within two hours.

Personally, I'm not worried at all.

[justinevans]

Might? If North Korea were to ever attack us, they'd better have a few hundred nukes, because otherwise they will be blown off the globe by us within two hours.

Personally, I'm not worried at all.

North Korea doesn't have the power to send a nuke this far, and if they did, they'd just blow up the west coast...no biggie, just kidding lol.

[Harold Wood]

china will lay the smack down to north korea if they try anything.

sometimes i wonder if this information is reported just so they can raise the terror level and sneak more policy under the public's noses


wise wise words

[aminorthreat55]

North Korea doesn't have the power to send a nuke this far, and if they did, they'd just blow up the west coast...no biggie, just kidding lol.
Oh I know, just like the fact that they don't have a few hundred nukes, I was merely making a point regardless of their present capabilities.

[justinevans]

china will lay the smack down to north korea if they try anything.

sometimes i wonder if this information is reported just so they can raise the terror level and sneak more policy under the public's noses

btw, we didn't report it. China news did. And our media reported...

[unwantedmelody]

My step mom is from China, she just moved to the states, I'm anxious to hear what she thinks.

[selftitled85]

good thing the world isnt run by poltical scientists.

in my senior sem class we were talking about terrorist having nukes. and the scary thing isnt terrorists getting a nuke or even long range missiles. what scares the piss out of poly scientists is that since americas power runs through a network of powerplants...that are linked more or less through satellites...if you fired a nuke and had it blow up in the atmosphere a couple hundred miles from the us it would have the same effect as an emp throughout the whole west coast and maybe as far in as states like michigan.

it would pretty much resemble the huge blackout in nyc and the rest of the east coast a couple years ago.

since we run everything pretty much electronically, no one would be able to take out money, get gas, use cell phones, watch tv, no lights,etc.

aka destroy our economy.

[catscradle]

try this one on for size


http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2006/10/11/afx3082407.html

everyone is fucked

bluff.

[rocktometal]

good thing the world isnt run by poltical scientists.

in my senior sem class we were talking about terrorist having nukes. and the scary thing isnt terrorists getting a nuke or even long range missiles. what scares the piss out of poly scientists is that since americas power runs through a network of powerplants...that are linked more or less through satellites...if you fired a nuke and had it blow up in the atmosphere a couple hundred miles from the us it would have the same effect as an emp throughout the whole west coast and maybe as far in as states like michigan.

it would pretty much resemble the huge blackout in nyc and the rest of the east coast a couple years ago.

since we run everything pretty much electronically, no one would be able to take out money, get gas, use cell phones, watch tv, no lights,etc.

aka destroy our economy.

that is interesting, but i dont get into "the sky is falling" theorists. an old geography teacher of mine, once said how when he was in college one of his profesors said that in 50 years their woud be a massive war centered around water. since then science has discovered a way to take large quantities of salt out of salt water, and this technique is now being used in both saudi arabia and the us. this technique doesn't eliminate water needs but if it starts to be used in more and more countries the likelyhood of war over water will become more and more unlikely.
so as far as nk's atomic capability-very interesting, and such discussions are definately worthwhile, but i wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

[selftitled85]

that is interesting, but i dont get into "the sky is falling" theorists. an old geography teacher of mine, once said how when he was in college one of his profesors said that in 50 years their woud be a massive war centered around water. since then science has discovered a way to take large quantities of salt out of salt water, and this technique is now being used in both saudi arabia and the us. this technique doesn't eliminate water needs but if it starts to be used in more and more countries the likelyhood of war over water will become more and more unlikely.
so as far as nk's atomic capability-very interesting, and such discussions are definately worthwhile, but i wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

oh no im not worried about nk. im stating that i feel that something like the theory i stated and terrorists getting nukes are much more plausible than nk being an actual threat.

[preppyak]

good thing the world isnt run by poltical scientists.

in my senior sem class we were talking about terrorist having nukes. and the scary thing isnt terrorists getting a nuke or even long range missiles. what scares the piss out of poly scientists is that since americas power runs through a network of powerplants...that are linked more or less through satellites...if you fired a nuke and had it blow up in the atmosphere a couple hundred miles from the us it would have the same effect as an emp throughout the whole west coast and maybe as far in as states like michigan.

it would pretty much resemble the huge blackout in nyc and the rest of the east coast a couple years ago.

since we run everything pretty much electronically, no one would be able to take out money, get gas, use cell phones, watch tv, no lights,etc.

aka destroy our economy.

Yeah...EMP is one of the devestating effects of that nuclear attack...in my class we've gone through the Prompt Effects of a Nuclear Attack, and let me tell you, they are terrible.

This is something my teacher keeps mentioning, and I think it's appropriate. When a leader of a country sees a nuclear explosion, it changes their mind as to if they want them/how they would use them, and all the time, it's in a way that makes them not want to have/use nuclear arms. He's proposed that for each generation, you invite all the world leaders, and you set off a small nuclear explosion (in the kilo-ton range) so that they can witness what it looks like and waht it does, and in turn, maybe that alone would be the most effective deterrence policy we have.

[preppyak]

try this one on for size


http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2006/10/11/afx3082407.html

everyone is fucked
bluff.

Combine the fact North Korea doesn't have the allies or the money to fund a war, with the fact that they can't even effectively launch a missile that travels a dangerous distance to any country other than perhaps China (even that is doubtful), and you have a recipe for a war we actually want...

If North Korea would declare war, it allows us to rid their country (in a unified effort I would hope, though that may be pipe-dreaming) of a leader who has devestated them, and, to get rid of another country developing nuclear war...all in the name of "defense"

So, if it's not a bluff, than North Korea is far dumber than I had thought possible...

[youcomebeforeyo]

If NK went to war I don't think it could last more than two months, if China stopped supplying them with oil they would run out of reserves so quickly.

[rocktometal]

oh no im not worried about nk. im stating that i feel that something like the theory i stated and terrorists getting nukes are much more plausible than nk being an actual threat.

alright, yeah i agree that is more plausible.