Traditional Animation

[Dan Hollister]

I picked my The Little Mermaid DVD this past week. It was my absolute favorite movie as a little kid. (Let the insults fly.) But I hadn't watched it in 15 years until this week, and upon watching it, it occurred to me how good a lot of these 2D animated films are, and that 3D is definitely cool, but isn't really filling the gap left by the lack of 2D films.

This is for a lot of reasons, but I was wondering what you guys think about it. I personally think that you would have to make a really fricken' good 2D film to make people go, but I think that if someone did just that, then it could still be successful. But that's just me.

Also, please, let's not turn this thread into a pissing contest about how 3D totally sucks or totally rules or whatever. There is absolutely no denying that 3D is extremely effective for certain ways of storytelling, as is 2D. So let's not go the way of the insults.

[gilatron5000]

I would love to see 2D make a comeback. I even think the hybrid animation is pretty good. Whatever tells the story more effectively, in my opinion.

[matt_rawlings]

It's sad that I had to click option one, but its kind of true.

I really miss good ole 2D though

[FrostedFlames]

I prefer older disney animation to the new stuff. The Fox and the Hound, Robin Hood, stuff like that. I dig that style. With that said, I still like the new stuff though.

[mcustom]

there was a lot of talk a couple years back about the death of 2d animation when disney shut down their traditional feature animation department in favor for going 100% 3d a la pixar. recently though, john lasseter (toy story, a bugs life, mr. pixar, really) is now on disney's payroll not only through a renewed distribution deal with pixar, but also as one of the heads of the imagineering department and disney's animation department. so now, not only is he the main man over at pixar, but also has a lot of weight when it comes to the disney theme parks and feature development. to lasseter, although he is one of the people responsible for ushering in the 3d era of animation, he's more concerned with story than visualfx for the sake of visualfx. he's encouraging his staff at both pixar and disney to be open to traditional 2d animation if it fits the story or style of any given project. since this announcement, disney feature animation has put 'the frog princess' into development which is, in fact, a 2d hand drawn feature being helmed by ron clements and john musker (the directors and writers of thelittlemermaid and aladdin). if it's a return to classic form and if alan menken signs off to compose songs for the film, than this is all very good news.

[Dan Hollister]

It's sad that I had to click option one, but its kind of true.

I really miss good ole 2D though

Do you think so, though?

Obviously 3D is more popular right now, but then again, nothing 2D is coming out. The real question is, if Disney were to make a sweet 2D fantasy film, do you honestly feel it would not do well at the box office?

At first glance, I think it's easy to say that 3D is the winner, but I think we really don't know. We only know because no good 2D film has come out in many years. Something just tells me that if a truly good 2D film were made, that it might have a fighting chance.

[matt_rawlings]

The reason I think 2D is dead is because distributers and film studios are all jumping on the 3D bandwagon, and leaving and old way behind to die.

If Disney or Dreamworks got back in the game with some really good material, then it would be excellent.

Of all the CGI animation that is always churned out now, I can still say that Pixar are the only ones who can still do it really well

[mcustom]

The reason I think 2D is dead is because distributers and film studios are all jumping on the 3D bandwagon, and leaving and old way behind to die.

If Disney or Dreamworks got back in the game with some really good material, then it would be excellent.

Of all the CGI animation that is always churned out now, I can still say that Pixar are the only ones who can still do it really well

with the exception of maybe don bluth's an american tale and land before time, no studio has ever, EVER approached disney when it comes to hand drawn animation. the same thing is happening right now with pixar, where dreamworks' and even disney's cg films just can't even begin to approach the quality of films pixar is making.

it's sad to see these studios churning out cg movies, capitilizing on pixar's 3d bandwagon. what they fail to realize is that pixar doesn't do as well as they do because of the fact that their movies are cg; pixar does well because they make quality films.

still, i wouldn't be surprised if by 2010 we see a rebirth of classic animation if what's happening over at disney right now is any indication.

[ThatGuy]

i also bought little mermaid. however i found it to not be able to hold up animation wise. overall it was good, but the computer effects just make it so much better.

but i agree that it has to be a really good story to attract people

[Groogz]

I voted that 2D is dead as a result of 3D's huge emergence into the animation scene. However, I am still a big fan of all the classic 2D Disney films. I own a few of em and could possibly consider picking up some more (the ones that aren't in the vault already, obviously).

[preppyak]

It's sad that I had to click option one, but its kind of true.

I really miss good ole 2D though

Do you think so, though?

Obviously 3D is more popular right now, but then again, nothing 2D is coming out. The real question is, if Disney were to make a sweet 2D fantasy film, do you honestly feel it would not do well at the box office?

At first glance, I think it's easy to say that 3D is the winner, but I think we really don't know. We only know because no good 2D film has come out in many years. Something just tells me that if a truly good 2D film were made, that it might have a fighting chance.
My optimism allowed me to click the second option...but even the Triplets of Belleville didn't allow 2-d to even become popular again, only a select few even noticed it.

The problem is that we grew up with 2-d films, this new generation of kids hasn't, they grew up with Pixar, and I think they would find 2-d to be rather boring and lack the dynamiscism of a 3-d film. Think about how toys have changed in that 10 year span, GI Joe became Tickle Me Elmo and Furbies, it needs to be more realistic and more interactive to hold attention, which sucks...

[buysoap]

i said the one about foreign and indie films because it seems most americans today really want 3D animation. granted there are a lot of television shows that imploy 2D, but i figure you are more talking about movies than TV so i looked at it that way.

though, to be fair, even foreign/indie are doing odd forms of "3D" animation. look at Renaissance.

[Evolution Kid]

I loved the 3-D movies when they were few and far between, because they were unique and had great stories. And generally, I love the older 2-D movies for their stories, but generally prefer the newer ones for their visuals rather than the 3-D ones, because with the 3-D movies that seem to be coming out every month now, you seem to loose a sense of it being a genuine cartoon. None of the characters look truly genuine or as if they will have lasting power like Toy Story, Nemo or Shrek.

[fluke182]

I clicked option 1, simply because all studios have firmly went the route of 3D, which is sad. In all honesty, Disney was putting out some gold with their last few in theaters 2D movies, with Lilo and Stitch and the Emperor's New Groove both being amongst my favorite animated movies ever. With that said, only Studio Ghibli is really putting out 2D anymore, but that is just because Miyazaki is a god amongst men. I think it COULD make a come back if a big studio actively pursued it because the 3D market is oversaturated, but it would really need to be backed by a great story or a big character. I miss 2D though, the animation in Lilo and Stitch was so wonderful with the drawn foregrounds and the watercolor backgrounds, that was such an underrated achievement in animated film. Bring it back Disney!

[Spooky]

I think the 3D is better. That being said, The Lion King and Aladdin are probably my two favorite animated movies. I think it's due to when they came out.... in 15 years, people will be raving on how great Shrek, Finding Nemo, and The Incredibles were I think. Childhood animated movies hold a special place.

[Adeniz19]

i love the new 3D pixar movies and i love the 2D disney movies. to me it doesnt matter how it's drawn up as long as there is a good story behind it

[Adeniz19]

with the exception of maybe don bluth's an american tale and land before time, no studio has ever, EVER approached disney when it comes to hand drawn animation. the same thing is happening right now with pixar, where dreamworks' and even disney's cg films just can't even begin to approach the quality of films pixar is making.

it's sad to see these studios churning out cg movies, capitilizing on pixar's 3d bandwagon. what they fail to realize is that pixar doesn't do as well as they do because of the fact that their movies are cg; pixar does well because they make quality films.

still, i wouldn't be surprised if by 2010 we see a rebirth of classic animation if what's happening over at disney right now is any indication.

there was a lot of talk a couple years back about the death of 2d animation when disney shut down their traditional feature animation department in favor for going 100% 3d a la pixar. recently though, john lasseter (toy story, a bugs life, mr. pixar, really) is now on disney's payroll not only through a renewed distribution deal with pixar, but also as one of the heads of the imagineering department and disney's animation department. so now, not only is he the main man over at pixar, but also has a lot of weight when it comes to the disney theme parks and feature development. to lasseter, although he is one of the people responsible for ushering in the 3d era of animation, he's more concerned with story than visualfx for the sake of visualfx. he's encouraging his staff at both pixar and disney to be open to traditional 2d animation if it fits the story or style of any given project. since this announcement, disney feature animation has put 'the frog princess' into development which is, in fact, a 2d hand drawn feature being helmed by ron clements and john musker (the directors and writers of thelittlemermaid and aladdin). if it's a return to classic form and if alan menken signs off to compose songs for the film, than this is all very good news.you really should post more. both are good post and i can't wait to see what disney does with the frog princess

[Dan Hollister]

I think the 3D is better. That being said, The Lion King and Aladdin are probably my two favorite animated movies. I think it's due to when they came out.... in 15 years, people will be raving on how great Shrek, Finding Nemo, and The Incredibles were I think. Childhood animated movies hold a special place.

But is The Incredibles really as touching or memorable a film as some of the Disney classics? Entertaining and flashy, yes. But is that really a classic? Was that storyline memorable? Or was it just fun and flashy?

I feel that 3D films - even the good ones - have lacked a few things that kids pick up in animated films. One is music. No matter how much filmmaking evolves, the basic fact that kids like music will never change. Wheare are the musical animated 3D films? They don't exist yet. I'm not sure they'll really exist anytime soon, either, because it's so difficult to make one in that style. They either look too real, or too comedic. And I think that "fairy tale" fantasy storyline still resonates well with young people.

[Chemical Love]

I'll give 2D the benefit of the doubt and say that if the movie was good it could make a comeback.

[mcustom]

But is The Incredibles really as touching or memorable a film as some of the Disney classics? Entertaining and flashy, yes. But is that really a classic? Was that storyline memorable? Or was it just fun and flashy?

I feel that 3D films - even the good ones - have lacked a few things that kids pick up in animated films. One is music. No matter how much filmmaking evolves, the basic fact that kids like music will never change. Wheare are the musical animated 3D films? They don't exist yet. I'm not sure they'll really exist anytime soon, either, because it's so difficult to make one in that style. They either look too real, or too comedic. And I think that "fairy tale" fantasy storyline still resonates well with young people.

i think, dan, people our age should be willing to acknowledge that we were fortunate enough to be children during this renaissance of animation. likewise, children today are fortunate to be growing up with a studio like pixar making the films that they are. to me and you, they might not hold that 'classic' status that 'beauty and the beast' has, but 15 years down the line, of course there will be a large population of people venerating 'finding nemo' to a similar status (and rightfully so). i'm an avid supporter of hand drawn animation, but i'm also aware that computer animation isn't going anywhere and i'm not willing to write it off or villanize the medium even if it's not what i would prefer.

as for the lack of musical numbers...i dont think it's a product of 3d filmmaking so much as indicitive of the state of animation in general. even disney's 2d movies post-mulan have very purposefully steered away from singing characters. would a cg musical work? of course. but it's also a completely different form of storytelling that i don't think animated filmmakers are too keen on right now. having 5-7 3 minute songs takes up large chunks of screentime and so the songs need to justify their existence. do they push the story along? do they ring true to the character? if the filmmakers don't want to deal with that added element of conveying their story via song, then they won't.

i think with this huge push from the studios at making cg a legitimate artform, they're writing scripts and stories that are so tight and deliberate, that they don't really leave room for songs since they've worked so hard to mask exposition in subtler ways tied down to script. that being said, i think it's format that needs to be reworked to accomodate the musical aspect. especially since 'moulin rouge' and 'chicago' have sort of brought musicals back into mainstreem cinema, not to mention the popularity of 'highschoolmusical' and the slew of broadway to film adaptations being made/put in development, there's an entire audience of people ready to see that form back in their cartoons. it should be mentioned though, that with the exception of elton john, alan menken is the only composer who's really done anything worthwhile for animated musicals in the last decade and a half. if i had to pin down the success of disney's resurgance of animation to any one person, he would be near the top of the list.

[Dan Hollister]

Oh for sure, I do not intend to villainize it. I love the Pixar films, and Finding Nemo is one of my favorite films. Of course 3D is here to stay and that will only get more prevalent. I just mean to say that I personally feel there is still a market for both. At least for the short-term, I believe that if someone were to create a genuinely good 2D film in the classic Disney style, that it still would have a good chance of doing well. That's all I'm really getting at.

I am willing to accept that Pixar will be to kids now what the Disney renaissance was to us. But while we're alive, and while Pixar still has to mature a little bit, why not have some genuinely good 2D films every once in a while?

[mcustom]

sorry. i didn't mean for that last post to come off as an attack against you. i can tell you have nothing but respect for the genre/medium. i doubt any studio outside of disney will be returning to 2d anytime soon, seeing as 3d is doing so well. shallow minds that run mainstream hollywood don't see any sense in returning to traditional animation if cg is making them so much cash.

but there's hope, like ive been saying...
the following quote is from a write up on a screening gary rydstrom did of his soon-to-be-released pixar short, 'lifted.' original credit goes to bluelily and aintitcoolnews.

He also answered a question about 2-d (aka. hand drawn animation) saying that John Lasseter and everyone at Pixar are very big fans of traditional animation. Pixar and Disney are going to be bringing it back as the Disney and Pixar people don't want to see 2d die. So Disney will be bringing back the traditional animated faire, and Pixar's going to be doing the 3d stuff. They believe that some projects fit 2d animation (brought up Hayao Miyazaki at this point) while other stories are better for 3d. Disney and Pixar, though now owned under the same company, are operating as if Pixar is a seperate studio that does 3d while they work in their own studios on what sounds like it will be again be focused on 2d animation.

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/30396

[a speedo model]

Disney killed it with the shitty 2D movies they've put out recently...come on Home on the Range? what the fuck were they thinking?