France and The Burka

[Love As Arson]

There were 335 votes for the bill and only one against in the 557-seat National Assembly.

It must now be ratified by the Senate in September to become law.

The ban has strong public support but critics point out that only a tiny minority of French Muslims wear the full veil.

Many of the opposition Socialists, who originally wanted the ban limited only to public buildings, abstained from voting after coming under pressure from feminist supporters of the bill.

President Nicolas Sarkozy has backed the ban as part of a wider debate on French identity but critics say the government is pandering to far-right voters.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10611398.stm

[Machu505]

Stupid. The European islamophobes are the bane of their continent.

[open mind]

i don't see anything wrong with banning husbands from forcing their wives to wear something, but an across the board ban is to extreme.

[caveBEAR]

Well, at least America isn't the only nation with ass-backwards racist views this time around.

[Manicapathy]

http://img2.moonbuggy.org/imgstore/wwrjd.jpg

Vote against the ban, free the women, continue killing the men.

[yves.]

Well, at least America isn't the only nation with ass-backwards racist views this time around.

good joke to a shitty situation.

[jwicklun]

Wow, this is dumb.

[Zeran]

i'm not sure exactly how to feel about the burka or the ban on it.

[LostAllways]

This is really, really sad. Almost disgusting that it passed without the slightest dispute.

[ayerock]

Sadly this will probably result in France becoming the new target of extremist attacks

[deFobbed14yrs]

well that's not racist

[Machu505]

I'd expect this from France more than any other western European nation. The French are very strict about their culture.

[x togepi x]

i don't see anything wrong with banning husbands from forcing their wives to wear something, but an across the board ban is to extreme.

not all of the women who wear them are forced to?

i've read some islamic feminist critiques of the bill claiming that some islamic feminists like this part of islam because it sort of makes it so that they aren't constantly judged by their physical appearance.

[Mitch]

Depresses the shit out of me to see minorities be blatantly oppressed like this.

[GeeBee]

Don't like the burqa, probably like the ban even less.

[amii_G]

Well, this is fucked up. Too many right-wing parties in control of European superpowers.

[oldwirehands]

Zizek talks about this in his new books. He talks about how the burka goes against the French idea, that women should WANT to be open. The idea of a burka scares them for more than just racist reasons. I will be back to explain more on a later date. I just wanted to subscribe.

[secretsociety92]

Only 2000 women wear this veil, so what is the point in wasting the time and money on something that only a few wear especially when there are more important things to be worrying about right now.

[Simulcast]

Stupid. The European islamophobes are the bane of their continent.

The secularists in Europe are frightened by Islam. Up until recently they've done fine by ignoring the movement of Islamic peoples into their countries and domains, as France did for the most part until October of 2005.

[open mind]

not all of the women who wear them are forced to?

i've read some islamic feminist critiques of the bill claiming that some islamic feminists like this part of islam because it sort of makes it so that they aren't constantly judged by their physical appearance.

X-) reread what i said.

[Zeran]

Zizek talks about this in his new books. He talks about how the burka goes against the French idea, that women should WANT to be open. The idea of a burka scares them for more than just racist reasons. I will be back to explain more on a later date. I just wanted to subscribe.

i'd like to hear more about this.

[x togepi x]

X-) reread what i said.

oops

[fightinirish217]

Just to play devil's advocate here in order to better understand people's reasoning in here:

I've seen people saying that in order to give more freedom they're taking away freedom, which I can understand. However, I guess I need to see more about the idea that many muslim women want to wear these in order not to be judged for their physical appearance?

Isn't women wearing burkas extremely oppressive? Is the reasoning against banning them purely just the restriction on religious freedom?

I also get France's fear/racism of the Muslim community that has become a larger part of their society in recent times.

Just want to gain further understanding here.

[zion the lion]

Does anybody remember that 7th Heaven episode where the mom kept imagining the girls in Burkas (because she was afraid of something or another) but they made it all creepy and they played creepy music and made the girls look like ghosts or something when they were in them?
That episode made me afraid of burkas.

But seriously, how would a small minority of people wearing these things be a threat to "the secular nature" of France.

[Republicanman]

Just to play devil's advocate here in order to better understand people's reasoning in here:

I've seen people saying that in order to give more freedom they're taking away freedom, which I can understand. However, I guess I need to see more about the idea that many muslim women want to wear these in order not to be judged for their physical appearance?

Isn't women wearing burkas extremely oppressive? Is the reasoning against banning them purely just the restriction on religious freedom?

I also get France's fear/racism of the Muslim community that has become a larger part of their society in recent times.

Just want to gain further understanding here.

Whether or not a burka is oppressive is irrelevant to the larger discussion. France, and much of Europe, have had very lax immigration policies for Muslims. It seems quite the 180 to say, "Thanks for coming into the country, but we're scared shitless of you!" Perhaps if Western Europe and the United States had stayed out of the Middle East's business, radical Islam would not be what it is today.

[Zeran]

yeah, that's probably true. most of the reasons why there is such a thing as "islamic terrorism" is due to us being in their territory, not with religion. actually, almost all of terrorism has to do with territorial issues, but i digress.

i'm kind of torn on the issue, because on the one hand, it's pretty hypocritcal to say your country has liberty when you then take away someone else's liberty for choosing what they want to wear. but i also feel like the burka is, whether women choose to wear it or not, repressive and offensive to women everywhere. so...yeah.

[x togepi x]

Ju

I've seen people saying that in order to give more freedom they're taking away freedom, which I can understand. However, I guess I need to see more about the idea that many muslim women want to wear these in order not to be judged for their physical appearance?

Isn't women wearing burkas extremely oppressive? Is the reasoning against banning them purely just the restriction on religious freedom?

I also get France's fear/racism of the Muslim community that has become a larger part of their society in recent times.

Just want to gain further understanding here.

There's this stereotype in people who aren't Muslim that says that Muslim men force women to wear veils. While this might be true in certain parts of the world, it is largely untrue in Western Muslim communities. While I haven't read the Koran in Arabic so I could be off here, the portions of the text talking about veils are not telling women they have to wear veils to be submissive to men, but rather they ought to wear veils to show their submission to Allah. Given that submission to Allah is such an important part of Islam, choosing to wear a veil is a powerful symbol of one's religious devotion.

In western society we have this idea that there's some correlation between how free women are and how much skin they show. This is why when we talk about women's liberation, we talk about it in the same breath as the invention of the mini skirt and bra burning. The idea is that Western women are free because they can show off more of their bodies, while in the past, they would have to dress "more modestly". The problem is that this position is pretty misogynist because we're defining women's freedom through the lens of how much of their bodies they show for men's pleasure. In all reality, the ability to choose whether or not to cover one's face or what they wear is not a good indicator of women's rights.

Some feminists (obviously not all since there are some who are for this bill) claim that taking away the right to wear a veil for religious reasons is just as bad as forcing a woman to wear one, because it deprives those women the ability to express their religious devotion. While we can point out problems without Islam historically has treated women, it is important to note that stereotype and realize that there are a great many feminist Muslims, some of which probably choose to wear veils themselves.

The matter of wearing the veil to disguise one's appearance so that they aren't judged for physical appearance goes much deeper than one would originally think. It's not just a shallow issue. There was a famous feminist, who's name unfortunately escapes me, who theorized that men gaze, while women are the objects of that stare. To oversimplify a bit, women, as sex objects, do a ton of work on themselves and their physical appearance in order to attract the gaze of a man. One could see that by wearing a veil, a woman is sort of getting around this situation. How can she be the object of a man's gaze if the man can't even see what he's looking at?

These two ideas go together. The veil becomes a strong religious and political statement. It can be read to mean that the wearer refuses to submit herself to a man because she is strongly loyal to her god.

sorry. i'm sure that's a lot longer explanation than you want.

[<*)))><]

not all of the women who wear them are forced to?

i've read some islamic feminist critiques of the bill claiming that some islamic feminists like this part of islam because it sort of makes it so that they aren't constantly judged by their physical appearance.
So they are ugly

[x togepi x]

So they are ugly

you're terrible at trolling.

[Zeran]

is it safe to say then, that at the very least, women who wear a veil or burka or head scarve or anything, they don't all do it for the same reason?

[fightinirish217]

There's this stereotype in people who aren't Muslim that says that Muslim men force women to wear veils. While this might be true in certain parts of the world, it is largely untrue in Western Muslim communities. While I haven't read the Koran in Arabic so I could be off here, the portions of the text talking about veils are not telling women they have to wear veils to be submissive to men, but rather they ought to wear veils to show their submission to Allah. Given that submission to Allah is such an important part of Islam, choosing to wear a veil is a powerful symbol of one's religious devotion.

In western society we have this idea that there's some correlation between how free women are and how much skin they show. This is why when we talk about women's liberation, we talk about it in the same breath as the invention of the mini skirt and bra burning. The idea is that Western women are free because they can show off more of their bodies, while in the past, they would have to dress "more modestly". The problem is that this position is pretty misogynist because we're defining women's freedom through the lens of how much of their bodies they show for men's pleasure. In all reality, the ability to choose whether or not to cover one's face or what they wear is not a good indicator of women's rights.

Some feminists (obviously not all since there are some who are for this bill) claim that taking away the right to wear a veil for religious reasons is just as bad as forcing a woman to wear one, because it deprives those women the ability to express their religious devotion. While we can point out problems without Islam historically has treated women, it is important to note that stereotype and realize that there are a great many feminist Muslims, some of which probably choose to wear veils themselves.

The matter of wearing the veil to disguise one's appearance so that they aren't judged for physical appearance goes much deeper than one would originally think. It's not just a shallow issue. There was a famous feminist, who's name unfortunately escapes me, who theorized that men gaze, while women are the objects of that stare. To oversimplify a bit, women, as sex objects, do a ton of work on themselves and their physical appearance in order to attract the gaze of a man. One could see that by wearing a veil, a woman is sort of getting around this situation. How can she be the object of a man's gaze if the man can't even see what he's looking at?

These two ideas go together. The veil becomes a strong religious and political statement. It can be read to mean that the wearer refuses to submit herself to a man because she is strongly loyal to her god.

sorry. i'm sure that's a lot longer explanation than you want.

Are you kidding? That was awesome, thanks for putting so much effort into that. Much appreciated.

[Machu505]

Syria is banning (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100719/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_syria_islamic_veils) the niqab from its universities, more interestingly.

[Laotzu]

Blech, this is the opposite of what we're trying to achieve. *shakes head*

[Laotzu]

Why Muslim women wear the veil: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5411320.stm

That article admittedly slants anti-Naqib.


I can honestly say that in my experiences observing Iraq for two years now that I've only seen real-deal-full-Naqib only twice...and it's kinda spooky.

If there's only like...1% of the women in Iraq wearing it (from my personal estimation) how many people can this law really be effecting? WTF is the point of the law?? To piss off all of 10 people in france wearing the damn thing, or to piss off the Muslim community as a whole? Well done France, way to be French and F*** everything up. Par for the course.....



I saw we all wear "freedom niqabs" in a show of solidarity.

[GuitarR0cker1]

Interesting to see the differences between American and Europe on Immigration/Ethnic issues.

[caveBEAR]

Why Muslim women wear the veil: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5411320.stm

That article admittedly slants anti-Naqib.


I can honestly say that in my experiences observing Iraq for two years now that I've only seen real-deal-full-Naqib only twice...and it's kinda spooky.

If there's only like...1% of the women in Iraq wearing it (from my personal estimation) how many people can this law really be effecting? WTF is the point of the law?? To piss off all of 10 people in france wearing the damn thing, or to piss off the Muslim community as a whole? Well done France, way to be French and F*** everything up. Par for the course.....



I saw we all wear "freedom niqabs" in a show of solidarity.

Did you just get pissed about a generalization and then post a generalization in retaliation?

What a nice little rhyme scheme I produced there.

[Laotzu]

hmh, I suppose I did X-)