Ground Zero Mosque Debacle

[TcicatrizMespV]

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world/mosque-near-ground-zero-stirs-up-controversy_100395814.html

The article's a brief description of what the main issue is, although there's more to be found if you search around. Basically, an Islamic group wants to open a mosque near ground zero of the 9/11 attacks, however many people see it as an insult to the memory of those lost. Sam Nunberg of the Center for Law and Justice described the mosque as equivalent to "removing the sunken ships from Pearl Harbor to erect a memorial for the Japanese kamikazes killed in the attack."

Personally, I find it a little insulting to instantly lump every person that prays in a mosque as a radical Islamic, which it appears some people are trying to do. They aren't attempting to build on the site of ground zero, rather in the area near it; I don't particularly see it as an insult, but I'd love to hear what other people have to say about it. Maybe I'm missing a bigger picture here.

[Machu505]

Build a mosque wherever you please. Those Muslims haven't killed anybody, so they shouldn't take the heat.

[Love As Arson]

They see it as an insult to the memory of 9-11 because they're ignorant and racist.

[Theseventhson]

They see it as an insult to the memory of 9-11 because they're ignorant and racist.

This pretty much sums it up.

[caveBEAR]

Well, everyone knows there were no Islamic people in the towers at all.

:rolleyes:

[bridgeofeldin]

I honestly believe that the mosque would be a great symbol of understanding and acceptance, not an "insult."

[caveBEAR]

I honestly believe that the mosque would be a great symbol of understanding and acceptance, not an "insult."

That's because you're a fascist communist.

[LostAllways]

I honestly believe that the mosque would be a great symbol of understanding and acceptance, not an "insult."

It would be a very false indication of understanding and acceptance, as the vast majority of Americans lack those qualities. That being said, people need to understand that there is a huge difference between a Muslim and an extremist/'terrorist'. The fact that the proposal to build this mosque is taken an insult is a testament to their ignorance.

[bridgeofeldin]

That's because you're a fascist communist.

Well what can I say? Everyone knows Osama and Hitler fought along side the Soviets back in the day.

[bridgeofeldin]

It would be a very false indication of understanding and acceptance, as the vast majority of Americans lack those qualities. That being said, people need to understand that there is a huge difference between a Muslim and an extremist/'terrorist'. The fact that the proposal to build this mosque is taken an insult is a testament to their ignorance.

Well if it gets built, i think it would at least be a step towards healing

[yayitsjoe]

i can understand why people are angry, but i don't think they should be angry. i have no problem with a mosque being there.

[greenteaallday]

Everyone saying that the people who don't want this are fascists, have to look at it from their position. Most of them have a lost loved one in the attacks.

That being said I don't think it's a big deal, however if I lost a parent in the attacks, I might think differently.

[Machu505]

Everyone saying that the people who don't want this are fascists, have to look at it from their position. Most of them have a lost loved one in the attacks.

That being said I don't think it's a big deal, however if I lost a parent in the attacks, I might think differently.

I guess we all can't be Amish (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2523941&page=1).

[Love As Arson]

Everyone saying that the people who don't want this are fascists, have to look at it from their position. Most of them have a lost loved one in the attacks.
Tragedy doesn't justify racism.

did anyone read that article? no one's calling them radicals, they want to know where the funding for the mosque is coming from, and since its near ground zero why not? why do they even have to build the mosque near ground zero? revealing where they got the money from shouldnt be a big deal
Why should we hold them to higher standards?

[mymusicismylife]

My God this is dumb. People need to get their heads out of their asses and realize that most religions have been used to commit atrocities, but it doesn't mean practicing that religion is inherantly bad.

[zachff]

At Great Clips yesterday (my girl Lorena is da bomb yo!) some older woman was getting all riled up about how she thought it was a travesty they were building a mosque there and being all ridiculous and racist, and the guy in the chair next to her basically told her to STFU.

[<*)))><]

Why would you want to build a Mosque a place were you have to pay such high property tax?

[zion the lion]

We're all going to basically agree on this (let them build a mosque), so why is there a thread?

[shit stroll]

Why would you want to build a Mosque a place were you have to pay such high property tax?
wouldn't a mosque be tax exempt?

[Mitch]

We're all going to basically agree on this (let them build a mosque), so why is there a thread?

Just because most may agree on a topic doesn't mean it's not worth discussing--so either talk about it or shut up.

[Mitch]

wouldn't a mosque be tax exempt?

I believe so, yes.

[Love As Arson]

Why is it such a big damn deal? Why is it that everyone has to play the racist card?
Because we are holding them to a higher standard than we would any other institution. The reason people want them to reveal their funding is the automatic assumption that all Muslims have a connection to terrorism. I would probably be laughed out of the room if I requested that no churches be built near the site of the Oklahoma City bombing, since McVeigh was a Christian.

Why do they have to build it near ground zero?
Because they want to? Maybe they feel like it will be a step in understanding, so that we do not see one another as Others who are less-human.


. But if you're gonna build a mosque near ground zero, you gotta understand that people are gonna be a little bit unhappy about it.l
I expect it, not because it is logical, but because the United States made great efforts to demonize Muslims.

[GeeBee]

Well, everyone knows there were no Islamic people in the towers at all.

:rolleyes:
Pshsh. The hijackers don't count, dummy.
(zing)

[caveBEAR]

Pshsh. The hijackers don't count, dummy.
(zing)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Fuck, I'll sacrifice whatever part of my soul is the cost for laughing at this, that cracked me up.

[caveBEAR]

But if you're gonna build a mosque near ground zero, you gotta understand that people are gonna be a little bit unhappy about it.l

You'd almost think that's not the Muslim's problem, but instead the bigots who are unhappy about it's problem.

[nicwtor]

I remember reading that it was going to open on September 11. I didn't have much problem with it but all the coincidences with the mosque and the attacks seemed kind of odd. I don't remember all the details from the article I read but I do know the coincidences itself was what I found insulting. Not the actual mosque at Ground Zero.

[GeeBee]

If for no other reason than property rights, they're fully justified in building whatever the hell they want.

[caveBEAR]

I remember reading that it was going to open on September 11. I didn't have much problem with it but all the coincidences with the mosque and the attacks seemed kind of odd. I don't remember all the details from the article I read but I do know the coincidences itself was what I found insulting. Not the actual mosque at Ground Zero.

Not going to believe that until I see it in a credible source.

[Nick Hull]

Because we are holding them to a higher standard than we would any other institution. The reason people want them to reveal their funding is the automatic assumption that all Muslims have a connection to terrorism. I would probably be laughed out of the room if I requested that no churches be built near the site of the Oklahoma City bombing, since McVeigh was a Christian.


Because they want to? Maybe they feel like it will be a step in understanding, so that we do not see one another as Others who are less-human.



I expect it, not because it is logical, but because the United States made great efforts to demonize Muslims.
lol..

[open mind]

conservative line:9/11 happened because they hate us for our freedoms!!!.........let's limit freedom!!!

[caveBEAR]

Just curious, how do you think they've demonized Muslims? I've never really felt like that, but if I did, I wouldn't blindly follow the government either. It's up to everyone themselves to decide what they truly believe. Why would I take the government's word on anything?

Really? You've been around since 2001, right? I think the fact that FoxNEWS and the like are harping on this mosque somehow being something that shouldn't be allowed or should be subject to investigation is pretty telling of the atmosphere in America in regards to Muslims right now.

[caveBEAR]

conservative line:9/11 happened because they hate us for our freedoms!!!.........let's limit freedom!!!

:lol:

Well put.

[x togepi x]

Just curious, how do you think they've demonized Muslims? I've never really felt like that, but if I did, I wouldn't blindly follow the government either. It's up to everyone themselves to decide what they truly believe. Why would I take the government's word on anything?


Oops i messed that up a little bit, and not really sure how to fix it, but my responses are in the quote box

dude, even since the 90s the go to ethnicity and religion for terrorist in films has been middle eastern muslims. if you don't think there's a double standard here, you really need to analyze your concept of what is and is not racism.

the people who want to build the place know a whole hell of a lot more about sensitivity regarding 9/11 than anyone else considering they instantly became targets on 9/12.

[nicwtor]

Not going to believe that until I see it in a credible source.

I wish I could remember where I saw it. I'll search around though but it's been a while.

[nicwtor]

Not going to believe that until I see it in a credible source.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/mosque_madness_at_ground_zero_OQ34E B0MWS0lXuAnQau5uL

New York Post was the most reliable source I could find.

[caveBEAR]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/mosque_madness_at_ground_zero_OQ34E B0MWS0lXuAnQau5uL

New York Post was the most reliable source I could find.

Yeah, that article didn't exactly come across as too professionally written, nor did it cite where that opening date came from. Still not convinced. (Not a jab at you, just don't believe that nugget of information yet)

[caveBEAR]

I don't watch tv

:ok:

[nicwtor]

Yeah, that article didn't exactly come across as too professionally written, nor did it cite where that opening date came from. Still not convinced. (Not a jab at you, just don't believe that nugget of information yet)

Understandable opinion. Hopefully the city of New York or whoever has the authority won't allow the date to be then. However if it's for a Muslim holiday or special event, then I may be more open to the idea of it being there. If it's just a random date though that also happens to be the day of the worst terrorist attack on US soil ever, then I'm not cool with that.

I'm all for people being able to worship how they please and religious tolerance but the coincidences make me critical.

[ABoyUnderOath90]

I don't have a problem with it, but why don't we all just keep religion to ourselves and try not to create trouble. Some ignorant person would be bound to do something stupid to a mosque if it was put there. Lets just move forward and accept each other for what we're worth.

[Love As Arson]

Just curious, how do you think they've demonized Muslims? I've never really felt like that, but if I did, I wouldn't blindly follow the government either. It's up to everyone themselves to decide what they truly believe.
How about the automatic assumption that their culture is inferior, thus requiring western intervention? The development of the terms "Islamic terrorism" and Islamo-Fascism"; distinguishing acts perpetrated by Muslims as terrorism, but supporting or ignoring equivalent actions and the list can go on.
Why would I take the government's word on anything?
It isn't just the government, its a pervasive ideological orientation.

Did McVeigh carry out the Oklahoma City Bombings because he was an extremist Christian? I'm asking cause i'm not very familiar with the exact story. Or was he provoked by other beliefs and he just so happened to be a Christian? If his religious beliefs inspired him to do it I wouldn't be laughing you out of the room. I know a very small percentage of muslims are extremists, and probably none who want the mosque built are, but the extremists were provoked because of their personal religious beliefs. It's two different things.
Well, okay, this is exactly the simplistic analysis put forth by western governments. It also demonstrates the differing standards we using when speaking about Americans and Muslims. You are willing to take into consideration that there are other beliefs to take into consideration with regard to McVeigh. A similar standard can be used with regard to Middle-Eastern terrorism in that most of the reasons they attacked us were secular, but had religious overtones.
If that is truly their goal, then what's the big deal? If they want a step in understanding, perhaps they should understand that the families of victims might be a little ticked off.
Why should they be understanding of feelings which actually have little to do with anything they've done?

[open mind]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/mosque_madness_at_ground_zero_OQ34E B0MWS0lXuAnQau5uL

New York Post was the most reliable source I could find.

if you start a sentence with "i'm not a bigot/racist" odds are high that you are and that you're about to say something pretty bigoted/racist.

[caveBEAR]

Understandable opinion. Hopefully the city of New York or whoever has the authority won't allow the date to be then. However if it's for a Muslim holiday or special event, then I may be more open to the idea of it being there. If it's just a random date though that also happens to be the day of the worst terrorist attack on US soil ever, then I'm not cool with that.

I'm all for people being able to worship how they please and religious tolerance but the coincidences make me critical.

I just don't agree with you. They should be allowed to open on September 11th if they wanted to. It would obviously be pushing buttons, but people should be able to dis-associate a mosque from radical Muslim groups.

[Sloth7]

Here's the thing. I live pretty close to NYC and in this area, you can't go too far without seeing a dedication, or plaque or some kind of remembrance honoring those who died on 9/11. It's impossible to avoid because when you look at the NY skyline from where we live, there's a gaping hole where the towers were that instantly reminds you. I honestly admit, I have no idea how things are in the rest of the country, but in this area, (and I can imagine in Downtown NYC), it's still kinda fresh in people's minds. It's pretty hard to not know someone who was effected or knew someone who was killed.

I agree that we shouldn't hold all Muslims responsible for what happened, and I don't think that's the case here. Everyone's gotta understand, for every person who is looking at this that way, there's a firefighter who lost their co-worker or a family who lost someone that finds this mosque's location to be not the best idea. It's not a matter of blatantly stereotyping, it's really people just hurting from losing someone they loved and having their home attacked.

[<*)))><]

Just wondering why do they want to put a Mosque next to something that is associated with so many negative feeling towards Muslims?

[Mitch]

I can understand why a mosque by Ground Zero may offend some, but that doesn't make them right nor are they thinking perfectly reasonably. There is no legitimate reason the mosque should not be built; these people are presumably connected no more to the Islamic terrorists than, say, I--a Jewish male--am to any Jewish murderer or terrorist I've never associated with.

With that said, I do find myself thinking that the idea for a mosque in that area probably isn't the best because it is sure to offend a lot of people even if it is only because of their ignorance. But once again, I don't think that's reason enough for its construction to be refused.

This whole thing should certainly elicit some interesting Facebook arguments.

[Mitch]

I agree that we shouldn't hold all Muslims responsible for what happened, and I don't think that's the case here. Everyone's gotta understand, for every person who is looking at this that way, there's a firefighter who lost their co-worker or a family who lost someone that finds this mosque's location to be not the best idea. It's not a matter of blatantly stereotyping, it's really people just hurting from losing someone they loved and having their home attacked.

How do you figure?

[caveBEAR]

Here's the thing. I live pretty close to NYC and in this area, you can't go too far without seeing a dedication, or plaque or some kind of remembrance honoring those who died on 9/11. It's impossible to avoid because when you look at the NY skyline from where we live, there's a gaping hole where the towers were that instantly reminds you. I honestly admit, I have no idea how things are in the rest of the country, but in this area, (and I can imagine in Downtown NYC), it's still kinda fresh in people's minds. It's pretty hard to not know someone who was effected or knew someone who was killed.

I agree that we shouldn't hold all Muslims responsible for what happened, and I don't think that's the case here. Everyone's gotta understand, for every person who is looking at this that way, there's a firefighter who lost their co-worker or a family who lost someone that finds this mosque's location to be not the best idea. It's not a matter of blatantly stereotyping, it's really people just hurting from losing someone they loved and having their home attacked.

I have family & friends who died in the attacks. This little plea to emotion doesn't do shit for me. Racist bullshit is still racist bullshit.

[Love As Arson]

Just wondering why do they want to put a Mosque next to something that is associated with so many negative feeling towards Muslims?

If you're a Muslim and view the attacks of 9-11 as a an action which misconstrues your faith, then why wouldn't you want to open a mosque near the site to demonstrate its positive characteristics?

[nicwtor]

I just don't agree with you. They should be allowed to open on September 11th if they wanted to. It would obviously be pushing buttons, but people should be able to dis-associate a mosque from radical Muslim groups.

I can understand where you're coming from. Another thing that just hit me though is that no one will care after it's opened. It'll be publicized for a while just like anything that could create interest in the media but after it's had its run, it'll just die down. I guess now that I think of it, it doesn't bother me that much. Two weeks after it's opened, people (aside from those who will see it and/or take it very offensively) will forget about it.

[caveBEAR]

I can understand where you're coming from. Another thing that just hit me though is that no one will care after it's opened. It'll be publicized for a while just like anything that could create interest in the media but after it's had its run, it'll just die down. I guess now that I think of it, it doesn't bother me that much. Two weeks after it's opened, people (aside from those who will see it and/or take it very offensively) will forget about it.

Pretty much. It's a non-issue in reality, the end of the world for 24 hour news networks/morons/bigots.

[<*)))><]

If you're a Muslim and view the attacks of 9-11 as a an action which misconstrues your faith, then why wouldn't you want to open a mosque near the site to demonstrate its positive characteristics?
To me it kind of seems like rubbing salt in the wound, even though it the Mosque was just intended to be a place to pray.

[Manicapathy]

I have a feeling that opening day there is gonna suck for the attendees.

[Love As Arson]

I don't understand the whole "How about the automatic assumption that their culture is inferior, thus requiring western intervention?" part. To my knowledge, we're at war in Afghanistan as a direct result to the attacks on 9/11 and the War in Iraq is supposed to stop other organizations like the Taliban from attacking us again.

You say you don't believe the government, but all you spout is their talking points.


I don't see how we're saying their culture is inferior to ours, even if that's what the government believes.
The talk about "spreading western liberal-democratic" policies; the talk in both Iraq and Afghanistan is building a government, leaving out most of the populace. Imperialists typically use the white-man's burden argument.



I agree that most of the reasons they attacked us were secular but had religious overtones. It just so happens that religion is Islam. I almost feel like its spiteful to put a mosque near ground zero. Like they're trying to stir up controversy. Even if that's not their intent, and it probably isn't, then what is the big deal of showing where they got the money to build it. I just don't understand why this becomes a topic of racism, it's just not that big of a deal.
It is a big deal because you are applying higher standards to them than you would any other group. You are saying that, because they are Muslim and so are those who perpetrated 9-11, the people that are building the mosque must prove they're the "good ones".
Obviously they had little to do with the attacks, probably nothing to do with the attacks, that's where the understanding part comes in.
Did you just implicate them in the attacks?

[Sloth7]

How do you figure?

Because I don't believe these are people who inherently have a problem with Muslims. Maybe some do, but in general, I don't think these are people who are grouping all Muslims together. This is a reaction to a tragedy.

I'm not saying they're right or wrong, but unless we can be in their shoes, then it's hard to assume how they're feeling in this kind of situation. There's a right time and a right place for things, and for the people who suggested this mosque had to realize they were going to run into this reaction. This really shouldn't surprise anyone.

I have family & friends who died in the attacks. This little plea to emotion doesn't do shit for me. Racist bullshit is still racist bullshit.

Your opinion is your opinion, I'm not here to argue you and I'm not here to change your mind. I'm just trying to give a practical reason of why these people are reacting this way instead of just saying it's a blanket racism. Sometimes things aren't so black and white. No pun intended.

[open mind]

i'm tempted to dissect the last 2 posts but i'm confident the people quoted in them can handle it.

[caveBEAR]

Your opinion is your opinion, I'm not here to argue you and I'm not here to change your mind. I'm just trying to give a practical reason of why these people are reacting this way instead of just saying it's a blanket racism. Sometimes things aren't so black and white. No pun intended.

No one is saying that it's 'blanket racism'. What we are saying is that anyone who sees this as some kind of 'problem' or 'situation' falls somewhere between 'unfortunately misinformed' to 'bigoted jackass'. A 'practical reason' doesn't excuse the fact that they fall somewhere between those two.

[Mitch]

Because I don't believe these are people who inherently have a problem with Muslims. Maybe some do, but in general, I don't think these are people who are grouping all Muslims together. This is a reaction to a tragedy.

I'm not saying they're right or wrong, but unless we can be in their shoes, then it's hard to assume how they're feeling in this kind of situation. There's a right time and a right place for things, and for the people who suggested this mosque had to realize they were going to run into this reaction. This really shouldn't surprise anyone.


I can certainly imagine how they feel. Like I said, I don't necessarily think that the mosque is a good idea in terms of sensitivity. But then even that right there even calls prejudice into question--why should people feel anxious? Because terrorists of the same religion happened to strike? They're not connected. Short-term sensitivity entrenched in ignorance is not a good excuse for the mosque to not be built.

It may be a "reaction" but the target of which is, when it comes down to it, a non-issue. This is not the equivalent of, hmm, a noose in a tree by a predominantly black school.

Not sure if this post is good at conveying my point, I'm pretty tired. Ha. I'm sure whoever thought up the idea knew the controversy that would ensue and while I can understand people's discomfort (which rational thought invalidates) that doesn't mean it shouldn't be built.

[Sloth7]

I can certainly imagine how they feel. Like I said, I don't necessarily think that the mosque is a good idea in terms of sensitivity. But then even that right there even calls prejudice into question--why should people feel anxious? Because terrorists of the same religion happened to strike? They're not connected. Short-term sensitivity entrenched in ignorance is not a good excuse for the mosque to not be built.

It may be a "reaction" but the target of which is, when it comes down to it, a non-issue. This is not the equivalent of, hmm, a noose in a tree by a predominantly black school.

Not sure if this post is good at conveying my point, I'm pretty tired. Ha. I'm sure whoever thought up the idea knew the controversy that would ensue and while I can understand people's discomfort that doesn't mean it shouldn't be built.


Haha, nah, it was definitely a good point. Like I said, I don't necessarily agree or disagree with what these people are feeling. Actually, I wasn't even thinking of an anxious reasoning. I actually agree with you on that, I don't feel there's a reason to feel nervous or anxious of a future attack because of a mosque being there. I really just thought the reaction was based on sensitivity of the situation.

I think the Muslims have a right to build it there, but when this kind of reaction was unavoidable, it may not have been the best choice, at least right now.

[caveBEAR]

Yeah, what's the big deal in that? I don't know if you ever played sports, but you know when somebody on the team does something stupid during practice, and everyone gets punished for it and has to do sprints. Yeah you didn't do it, but instead of crying about it, you suck it up and prove to your coach that you aren't the idiot, and you accept the responsibility that you're a team. I know it's a bad analogy, laugh at me all you want, but it's all I could think of. Unfortunately, a few bad apples gave the Muslim people a bad reputation, it's something they have to live with now. Is it unfair, yes. But knowing that, what is the big deal of showing where you got the money from. What if it turns they actually are doing it out of spite, and are being funded by extremists? It's just not that big of a deal.

Wow. Just wow. This isn't even laugh worthy, this is just...wow.

[Sloth7]

No one is saying that it's 'blanket racism'. What we are saying is that anyone who sees this as some kind of 'problem' or 'situation' falls somewhere between 'unfortunately misinformed' to 'bigoted jackass'. A 'practical reason' doesn't excuse the fact that they fall somewhere between those two.

Fair enough. Like I said, I have no wishes of arguing a point with you. Plus, I'm not saying what you're thinking is wrong. In fact, I'm sure there's lots of bigoted people in that group who are against this, and obviously that's a stupid way to look at this. But I also know there's a lot of people who are either confused, angry or are still licking their wounds, and to pin them as racists might not be totally fair either.

[Mitch]

Wow. Just wow. This isn't even laugh worthy, this is just...wow.

Are you also in awe of its genius?

[caveBEAR]

Fair enough. Like I said, I have no wishes of arguing a point with you. Plus, I'm not saying what you're thinking is wrong. In fact, I'm sure there's lots of bigoted people in that group who are against this, and obviously that's a stupid way to look at this. But I also know there's a lot of people who are either confused, angry or are still licking their wounds, and to pin them as racists might not be totally fair either.

Agreed, that's why I started the scale at 'misinformed'. I am not numb to the feelings/motivations that non-racist people have about this situation, but I don't excuse them due to it. There is no situation here. I understand them, but I don't excuse them.

[caveBEAR]

I know, i'm sorry

Not trying to come across as a dick, but if you have a world-view that requires you to apologize, you may want rethink your world-view.

[open mind]

Yeah, what's the big deal in that? I don't know if you ever played sports, but you know when somebody on the team does something stupid during practice, and everyone gets punished for it and has to do sprints. Yeah you didn't do it, but instead of crying about it, you suck it up and prove to your coach that you aren't the idiot, and you accept the responsibility that you're a team. I know it's a bad analogy, laugh at me all you want, but it's all I could think of. Unfortunately, a few bad apples gave the Muslim people a bad reputation, it's something they have to live with now. Is it unfair, yes. But knowing that, what is the big deal of showing where you got the money from. What if it turns they actually are doing it out of spite, and are being funded by extremists? It's just not that big of a deal.

this is like saying white people nearly wiped out the native americans and owned slaves therefore all white people are racist, slave owning, genocidal maniacs until proven otherwise.

[Mitch]

All I was trying to say is that even though you aren't the guilty one, you have to accept that you may have to go above and beyond to prove that. I know it's a bad analogy and laugh at me all you want, but I'm also not the one with 20,000 posts on an internet forum.


What's wrong with having 20,000 posts on an internet forum? It's like in sports, you run laps and laps and laps until you've run so many miles.

[caveBEAR]

All I was trying to say is that even though you aren't the guilty one, you have to accept that you may have to go above and beyond to prove that. I know it's a bad analogy.

That's not how it works. People don't have to work harder to overcome other people's prejudices, people with prejudices have to work harder to overcome their prejudices.

and laugh at me all you want, but I'm also not the one with 20,000 posts on an internet forum.

'Prick' isn't a flattering color, try not to wear it.

[caveBEAR]

I was apologizing for the terrible analogy, not the world view

Oh, my bad. I thought maybe you were just admitting that you were uneducated on the subject, turns out you just have a shitty world view.

I'll state again;

People don't have to work harder to overcome other people's prejudices, people with prejudices have to work harder to overcome their prejudices.

[caveBEAR]

That is a very strong point. I don't believe Muslims are terrorists. I just don't see the huge deal about doing a little bit extra.

People don't have to work harder to overcome other people's prejudices, people with prejudices have to work harder to overcome their prejudices.

[Mitch]

:lol:

[rawesome]

All I was trying to say is that even though you aren't the guilty one, you have to accept that you may have to go above and beyond to prove that. I know it's a bad analogy and laugh at me all you want, but I'm also not the one with 20,000 posts on an internet forum.
I think the bigger issue they take with your analogy is that you genuinely believe that they should have to go "above and beyond" to prove that they are good people, even though they have given no one any reason to think otherwise.

That and the weak analogy.

[caveBEAR]

There's nothing wrong with it, all I'm saying is we could laugh at each other all day long for different things, you laugh at me for the bad analogy, I laugh at you because you post a lot on an internet forum, in the end it doesn't really make a difference

No one is mocking you for your shitty analogy, they're mocking you for your shitty reasoning behind it.

[open mind]

That is a very strong point. I don't believe Muslims are terrorists. I just don't see the huge deal about doing a little bit extra.

then prove to me that you aren't a racist, slave owning, genocidal maniac.

[Scrandon]

I know they haven't given anybody reasons to think otherwise, the ones who attacked us on 9/11 did.

The point is that you need to stop grouping them all together with suspicion because there is nothing inherently 'terrorist' in the Islamic religion.

[open mind]

I just believe differently than you, that's really all it comes down to, if you think I'm prejudiced or racist, then that's fine. Why is it fair to call people who do not want the mosque up ignorant, and not call you ignorant because you deem my own opinion as automatically wrong. Don't make me do another shitty analogy about how people have differing opinions on music :)

because they're (or at least you're) using flawed logic and reasoning?

[caveBEAR]

I just believe differently than you, that's really all it comes down to, if you think I'm prejudiced or racist, then that's fine. Why is it fair to call people who do not want the mosque up ignorant, and not call you ignorant because you deem my own opinion as automatically wrong. Don't make me do another shitty analogy about how people have differing opinions on music :)

:ahem:

People don't have to work harder to overcome other people's prejudices, people with prejudices have to work harder to overcome their prejudices.


As well, I'm not prejudiced for saying you have a shitty world-view. I didn't think that at all, until you posted replies that made me believe this. You. Not people who look like you, sound like you, act like you, etc., you.

Reminds me of the saying, 'better to let people think you're a moron than to open your mouth and prove it'.

[Mitch]

But it's your opinion that I have a shitty world view! Maybe someone thinks I have a great world view! IT'S ALL OPINION!!!!!

Opinions can be factually incorrect.

[caveBEAR]

But it's your opinion that I have a shitty world view! Maybe someone thinks I have a great world view! IT'S ALL OPINION!!!!!

http://api.ning.com/files/wU9Vc0wWUf2xtI4wwTHtIhUIRkn0HImx3ed BaUwpLIovoqQGrOmU0At-8XHfzNzIzFWyXBRnpDKiVzemSnZG4DUc8Dl l9Eyt/facepalm.jpg

[Mitch]

Is mine?

It's like in sports...The baseball player may THINK hitting the ball with a golf club is suitable but that's just not how the sport is played.

[open mind]

Hmmm maybe we have different logic and reasoning, much like we have different opinions, shoot me.

we do. yours is flawed.

[open mind]

Is this God?

no, just a moderately intelligent human being.

i think you need to read up a little on logic......i guess wiki will do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

[open mind]

Sorry man, you're awesome. Basically if i was building this mosque, i wouldn't mind showing them where the funds were coming from, although I wouldn't be building it there in the first place. Maybe you wouldn't though, and that's fine man. We're all different.

you still have to prove that you aren't a racist, slave owning, genocidal maniac.

[open mind]

I have a bunch of black friends.

prove it.

are you getting my point yet?

[loveisdead]

There's the proof, folks. A picture with someone of a different color.

[open mind]

The thing is I didn't put a confederate flag next to a memorial for black soldiers who died in the civil war, in which case i would prove it, but here's proof anyway:

http://i25.tinypic.com/2hi8lro.jpg

me and my friend justine :)

i can't confirm that that's really you, and if it is you that she isn't a slave being forced to stand next to you.
supposing you do have black friends that still doesn't prove that you aren't a racist with genocidal tendencies.

[open mind]

Yes I've gotten your point all along. I just wanna know why my point is automatically wrong and stupid.

if you're still asking that you obviously don't get my point.

If I really cared that much I'd still go on, but I don't, so congratulations, you win

oh, i get it. you'd rather not have to prove it.....not unlike muslims who you believe should have to prove themselves innocent despite a lack of evidence that they've done something wrong.

[zion the lion]

Just because most may agree on a topic doesn't mean it's not worth discussing--so either talk about it or shut up.

I dont think you're allowed to bitch at me on my birthday.

[Mitch]

I dont think you're allowed to bitch at me on my birthday.

Hmm, perhaps. Happy birthday.

Edit: Actually, it's July 15 now. Liar.

[zion the lion]

Hmm, perhaps. Happy birthday.

Edit: Actually, it's July 15 now. Liar.

We're not going by east coast time...its 9:47pm here...alaska time.

And my mom is watching me like a hawk and forcing me to say thank you for saying happy birthday (perhaps)...so my mom says thanks.

[Machu505]

Happy birthday, Zion. These others are just bitches.

[Alou]

www.sioaonline.com (http://www.sioaonline.com)

Lovely group.

[zion the lion]

Happy birthday, Zion. These others are just bitches.

Yay thank you...and thats from me, not my mom haha.

[kwsqd]

wow. this thread was ridiculous.

[Zeran]

i can understand why people are angry, but i don't think they should be angry. i have no problem with a mosque being there.

i agree. i totally understand why someone would be upset about this. i think it's probably too soon in people's memories to get something like this built so near the site without causing consternation.

[Zeran]

I expect it, not because it is logical, but because the people running the government of the United States made great efforts to demonize Muslims.
fixed your post.

[Midget Pirates]

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-ground-zero-mosque-developer-muslim-brotherhood-roots-radical-dreams/?singlepage=true

This is sparking some of the controversy.

[Zeran]

this is like saying white people nearly wiped out the native americans and owned slaves therefore all white people are racist, slave owning, genocidal maniacs until proven otherwise.

you mean they're not?

[hello299]

Did not appreciate the person lumping all conservaties as ignorant or prejudice.

[twelve2395]

i don't know why everyone is labeling this as racism? it's a religion not a race.

i agree they should be allowed to build it.
as far as where the money came from... i don't know how it usually works
if a temple, or catholic church was being built there, would they have to disclose where their money?

[twelve2395]

They see it as an insult to the memory of 9-11 because they're ignorant and racist.

why racist? this has nothing to do with race.
i agree with the ignorant part.

[paper halo]

i don't know why everyone is labeling this as racism? it's a religion not a race.

Discrimination by creed is often defined under racism, at least in terms of the law in many countries. In this instance, the lines are blurred, as it is generally assumed that people from a certain ethnic background will be part of a certain religion, and so discrimination occurs because of their observable racial characteristics.

i agree they should be allowed to build it.
as far as where the money came from... i don't know how it usually works
if a temple, or catholic church was being built there, would they have to disclose where their money?

Being built where? I'm assuming you're going down the classic road of "well we can't build churches in Iran, so why can they build mosques here?". If this is the case, i suggest you stop there, as such an argument is deeply flawed, and I would rather not have to waste time telling you why.

[Simulcast]

Did not appreciate the person lumping all conservaties as ignorant or prejudice.


Get used to it. It's the one prejudice that goes unnoticed around these parts.

[caveBEAR]

http://api.ning.com/files/wU9Vc0wWUf2xtI4wwTHtIhUIRkn0HImx3ed BaUwpLIovoqQGrOmU0At-8XHfzNzIzFWyXBRnpDKiVzemSnZG4DUc8Dl l9Eyt/facepalm.jpg

[Simulcast]

I'm with you on that one. This entire thread makes my head hurt.

[caveBEAR]

why racist? this has nothing to do with race.
i agree with the ignorant part.

Yeah, people who freak out about 'radical Muslims!' in no way generalize Islamics as mostly (if not entirely) made up of Middle Eastern people...:rolleyes:

[hello299]

Get used to it. It's the one prejudice that goes unnoticed around these parts.

Exactly my point. People on here will point out someone for stereotyping or being prejudice against certain groups of people, but will turn a blind eye when someone stereotypese all conservatives in a negative light.

[open mind]

Exactly my point. People on here will point out someone for stereotyping or being prejudice against certain groups of people, but will turn a blind eye when someone stereotypese all conservatives in a negative light.

i must have missed it, who said all conservatives are ignorant racists again?

[caveBEAR]

i must have missed it, who said all conservatives are ignorant racists again?

We said people flipping out about the 'mosque debacle' were racist and/or ignorant, which they in turn inferred as 'all conservatives'. Classic move, do the prejudiced action yourself, then blame it on the other party.

[SomethingClever]

mjGJPPRD3u0

[Zeran]

goptrust.com

[J.C.]

Pretending the controversy is rooted in the funding and not the fact it's a mosque is a hilarious and poorly conceived diversion from the actual argument.

[Simulcast]

i must have missed it, who said all conservatives are ignorant racists again?

We said people flipping out about the 'mosque debacle' were racist and/or ignorant, which they in turn inferred as 'all conservatives'. Classic move, do the prejudiced action yourself, then blame it on the other party.


...


conservative line:9/11 happened because they hate us for our freedoms!!!.........let's limit freedom!!!

Really? You've been around since 2001, right? I think the fact that FoxNEWS and the like are harping on this mosque somehow being something that shouldn't be allowed or should be subject to investigation is pretty telling of the atmosphere in America in regards to Muslims right now.

[paper halo]

I don't think attacking FoxNEWS is automatically a generalisation of Conservatives. More a generalisation of people who take Fox seriously.

[open mind]

...

work on reading comprehension.
saying an argument is presented by conservatives is not the same as saying all conservatives argue it......and i didn't even mention racism or ignorance in what you're quoting.

[rhinitus]

i must have missed it, who said all conservatives are ignorant racists again?

after 14K posts, one would think you would have noticed a trend by now.

[Simulcast]

work on reading comprehension.
saying an argument is presented by conservatives is not the same as saying all conservatives argue it......and i didn't even mention racism or ignorance in what you're quoting.

No, but you branded them with an ignorant statement.

Look, BeerforBear was right in the other thread. I spoke out of turn and was being dramatic. I apologize for my little quip.

[twelve2395]

Discrimination by creed is often defined under racism, at least in terms of the law in many countries. In this instance, the lines are blurred, as it is generally assumed that people from a certain ethnic background will be part of a certain religion, and so discrimination occurs because of their observable racial characteristics.



Being built where? I'm assuming you're going down the classic road of "well we can't build churches in Iran, so why can they build mosques here?". If this is the case, i suggest you stop there, as such an argument is deeply flawed, and I would rather not have to waste time telling you why.

ummm... being built in the same place the mosque is being built?
i was simply trying to say that if a temple was being built there and they don't have to disclose where the money is coming from, then why should the mosque.

[DrStrong]

Why should anything get built on ground zero? Why not just make some sort of monument?

[twelve2395]

Yeah, people who freak out about 'radical Muslims!' in no way generalize Islamics as mostly (if not entirely) made up of Middle Eastern people...:rolleyes:

by calling them racists, you are making the same generalizations about people who don't agree with your point of view

[xemilylovespopx]

The way I see it, radical Muslims are to Muslims as the KKK is to Christianity. They should be able to build a mosque where they want. People complaining about Muslims invading their neighborhoods are completely racist.. If they are building a mosque there, guess what.. they most likely have a decent Muslim/Islam population surrounding you already.

[paper halo]

ummm... being built in the same place the mosque is being built?
i was simply trying to say that if a temple was being built there and they don't have to disclose where the money is coming from, then why should the mosque.

My apologies for the assumption.

I actually agree with this point.

[Love As Arson]

why racist? this has nothing to do with race.
i agree with the ignorant part.
Because if Islam, instead of Christianity, had ties to the Western European identity, then it would be a non-issue.

I said don't blindly follow everything the government says. I then said, whether or not you believe they are actually doing what they say they are doing, it doesn't matter because no one really knows what they truly believe. Obviously you seem to think that they hate the Muslim culture and need to change it because were superior to them. Maybe I don't believe that. Oh no, difference of opinion, fucking shoot me.
You say that, then go on to spout the rhetoric put forth by the government which was my point. As to the rest, I judge by their actions and the ideological bases for them.


Woahhhh first of all you were the one that said "Why should they be understanding of something they had little to do with" or something along those lines, so I was responding to you. Don't try and play that card buddy.
The way you phrased it implied they had something to do with it. If that isn't the case, then fine.




I get it, I'm just a big Muslim hating racist. It's funny how you believe everyone should be treated fairly but yet you're insinuating that i'm a racist and ignorant because I believe differently than you do.
No, I treat them as ignorant and racist when they display those characteristics. Togepi and I disagree on a few issues, but I would never level those criticisms against him.


Yeah, what's the big deal in that? I don't know if you ever played sports, but you know when somebody on the team does something stupid during practice, and everyone gets punished for it and has to do sprints. Yeah you didn't do it, but instead of crying about it, you suck it up and prove to your coach that you aren't the idiot, and you accept the responsibility that you're a team. I know it's a bad analogy, laugh at me all you want, but it's all I could think of. Unfortunately, a few bad apples gave the Muslim people a bad reputation, it's something they have to live with now. Is it unfair, yes. But knowing that, what is the big deal of showing where you got the money from. What if it turns they actually are doing it out of spite, and are being funded by extremists? It's just not that big of a deal.
I do not think you understand that placing them "on the same team" is part of the problem I am referring to.

Fair enough. Like I said, I have no wishes of arguing a point with you. Plus, I'm not saying what you're thinking is wrong. In fact, I'm sure there's lots of bigoted people in that group who are against this, and obviously that's a stupid way to look at this. But I also know there's a lot of people who are either confused, angry or are still licking their wounds, and to pin them as racists might not be totally fair either.
There are a lot of reasons that people hold racist views. I do not think it is a viable excuse. Also, part of the problem, and this annoys me greatly, is people think of racism as the KKK, neo-Nazis, use of a racial epithets openly, etc. That is the most open expression of racism, but there are various subtle forms of the ideology and it is those forms which worry me the most, as they allow people to perpetuate and justify dehumanizing views.

[open mind]

by calling them racists, you are making the same generalizations about people who don't agree with your point of view

calling someone who is arguing a bigoted point of view a racist is not making a generalization.

[Alou]

by calling them racists, you are making the same generalizations about people who don't agree with your point of view

The problem with your argument is that they ARE being racist and completely stupid.

[zion the lion]

i can't confirm that that's really you, and if it is you that she isn't a slave being forced to stand next to you.
supposing you do have black friends that still doesn't prove that you aren't a racist with genocidal tendencies.

On another note, I think she's pretty, or the dress is...or her and the dress. And the smile on her face doesnt look like she's a slave, although he looks uncomfortable next to her.

[Mitch]

Pls refudiate (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/07/sarah-palin-calls-on-peaceful-muslims-to-refudiate-ground-zero-mosque.php).

[macabre]

Pls refudiate (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/07/sarah-palin-calls-on-peaceful-muslims-to-refudiate-ground-zero-mosque.php).

She was obviously creating a neologism combining refute and repudiate, duh.

[Manicapathy]

Pls refudiate (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/07/sarah-palin-calls-on-peaceful-muslims-to-refudiate-ground-zero-mosque.php).

BNsrK6P9QvI

[J.C.]

I'm sure if we were talking about building a church instead of a mosque, Sarah wouldn't be so concerned about it's provocativeness.

[fightinirish217]

As a not racist conservative, I just wish Sarah Palin would shut up and go away.

[LostAllways]

Pls refudiate (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/07/sarah-palin-calls-on-peaceful-muslims-to-refudiate-ground-zero-mosque.php).

LOLOLOL

[caveBEAR]

Pls refudiate (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/07/sarah-palin-calls-on-peaceful-muslims-to-refudiate-ground-zero-mosque.php).

I swear to God, if she even ends up 7th in line to take the Presidency, then I'll just tap out. Lunatics win, I'll move somewhere else. Cuba, maybe.

[Machu505]

Channeling Dubya, I like it.

[Zeran]

Pls refudiate (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/07/sarah-palin-calls-on-peaceful-muslims-to-refudiate-ground-zero-mosque.php).

why are more conservatives not embarrassed by how insanely idiotic the right has become?

[zion the lion]

When I traveled out of the country, I used to say that I was from Alaska before I said I was from America, it sounds more interesting and it kept people from talking politics (especially our countries politics) to me, because instead they'd ask questions like "I heard it snows there every day" (like two guys in Israel insisted to me once).

That woman ruined that...now I cant even say I'm from Alaska.

[open mind]

why are more conservatives not embarrassed by how insanely idiotic the right has become?

there's no rational reason that i can think of but i'm bored and willing to take a stab at explaining it.

i think politics is viewed by many as a adversarial, team, type thing (and that the political machine currently encourages this outlook) so any mockery of their leaders is taken as a personal insult that further cements their ideas of snobby liberals/insensitive conservatives.

[Mitch]

I love it when O'Reilly interviews Palin. He clearly isn't too impressed with her, haha.

[caveBEAR]

there's no rational reason that i can think of but i'm bored and willing to take a stab at explaining it.

i think politics is viewed by many as a adversarial, team, type thing (and that the political machine currently encourages this outlook) so any mockery of their leaders is taken as a personal insult that further cements their ideas of snobby liberals/insensitive conservatives.

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. (<-- I think that could have been taken as a slight against homosexuals if you'd said it in the Constitution thread...X-))

[open mind]

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. (<-- I think that could have been taken as a slight against homosexuals if you'd said it in the Constitution thread...X-))

oh god, don't mention that thread.

i feel dirty for having taken part in it, haha.

[Zeran]

I love it when O'Reilly interviews Palin. He clearly isn't too impressed with her, haha.

the thing is, in every speech that i've seen her give, or even when she's just answering a simple question in an interview, she stumbles and mumbles and fumbles and just comes across as having no fucking idea what she's talking about, even when it's something she really should know about.

how did a woman like this become governor of a state?

[caveBEAR]

how did a woman like this become governor of a state?

I think there are certain states, like Alaska, Nebraska, Idaho, etc., who's gubernatorial elections are more like running for Treasurer in Middle School than an actual political position.

[open mind]

the thing is, in every speech that i've seen her give, or even when she's just answering a simple question in an interview, she stumbles and mumbles and fumbles and just comes across as having no fucking idea what she's talking about, even when it's something she really should know about.

how did a woman like this become governor of a state?

she was the republican ticket following the least popular governor in the country in a state that almost always votes republican.

she really wasn't that bad of a governor (as far as governors in alaska go) until she joined the mccain campaign and realized she could make a pile of money pandering to conservatives.

[zion the lion]

I think there are certain states, like Alaska, Nebraska, Idaho, etc., who's gubernatorial elections are more like running for Treasurer in Middle School than an actual political position.

Thank you for that.

[open mind]

Thank you for that.

aside from big money coming from oil companies and defense he's really not that far off is he?

[caveBEAR]

Thank you for that.

aside from big money coming from oil companies and defense he's really not that far off is he?

Ha ha ha, that's fucked, I make a complete generalization on a 3rd grade intelligence level about anyone being able to govern Alaska, and the two Alaskans basically say, 'Yeah, that's about right'.

Aaaaaah, Palin.

[LostAllways]

What's wrong with having 20,000 posts on an internet forum? It's like in sports, you run laps and laps and laps until you've run so many miles.

LMAO

[open mind]

Ha ha ha, that's fucked, I make a complete generalization on a 3rd grade intelligence level about anyone being able to govern Alaska, and the two Alaskans basically say, 'Yeah, that's about right'.

Aaaaaah, Palin.

it'd be funnier if it wasn't true.
this state is basically owned by big oil, and the military, so a governor can almost run on auto pilot.

[zion the lion]

aside from big money coming from oil companies and defense he's really not that far off is he?

We have like 600,000 people and not one road connecting all of us...of course it devolves into a popularity contest of "pick me I'm a lifelong alaskan, the other guy lived in another state while he went to college, do you really want that as your governor?" its way too easy.

[loveisdead]

We have like 600,000 people and not one road connecting all of us...of course it devolves into a popularity contest of "pick me I'm a lifelong alaskan, the other guy lived in another state while he went to college, do you really want that as your governor?" its way too easy.

Didn't Palin live in another state while she went to college?

[zion the lion]

Didn't Palin live in another state while she went to college?

Yeah, and no I dont think that argument was used. But people like to make a point of proving how alaskan they are.

[circasuicide]

Build a mosque wherever you please. Those Muslims haven't killed anybody, so they shouldn't take the heat.

/thread

[open mind]

Yeah, and no I dont think that argument was used. But people like to make a point of proving how alaskan they are.

maybe it's just me but when it comes to the political ads "alaskan" seems to generally mean white, a pile of inherited money, and/or a good dose of nepotism.

[Laotzu]

Regardless of the pro/con racism arguments, there is a very real, very simple fact.

A large mosque built close to Ground Zero will directly correlate to an increase in the number of Jihadists in the world.

Why? Because this is a propaganda gold mine. We are fighting a battle for hearts and minds every day where the every-day citizens of the Muslim World either chose "us", "them", or some shade of grey in-between.

There are always fence-sitters and there will always be degrees of Jihadists. The propaganda spin that will be applied to the building of this mosque will directly increase the amount of Jihadists in the world. Which will directly increase not only the amount of Jihadists that Americans in uniform will ultimately have to kill or capture, but also increase the number of attacks that would otherwise be committed against the American Military in the Muslim World.


Yes. I am saying that a Mosque built close to ground zero will likely increase the amount of Americans brought home in coffins. I AM not saying that this necessarily means that such a Moque not ought be built otherwise, that's for ya'all to decide, I'm a little pre-occupied... Maybe its worth handing Jihadists this propaganda victory in order to maintain the moral character of America. Certainly the arguments that dis-allowing the Mosque is implicitly racist has merrit.

However we live in the real world (well some of us) and moral decisions often come in shades, this is one of them. Building that damn Mosque will uphold American ideals, but it will also lead to an increase in the Jihadist ranks, which increase the potientiality that either someone will have to kill that Jihadist, or that Jihadist will have to kill an American.

If this is the price of the moral virtue you are willing to pay, then so be it..

Don't believe me? Get out your googletranslators kids, and cruise on over to your nearest Al'Qa-ida accredited website. I'll let you do the legwork.

[J.C.]

lol

If you're concerned about propaganda, the idea that you couldn't build a mosque here because it would offend Americans is infinitely more useful in trying to rally people to their cause.

I'm completely taken aback by all the blatant bigotry I see on a daily basis. Maybe I grew up in too much of a bubble.

[Laotzu]

[post edited to correct my numerous typos, the content wasn't changed]

In what sense:

An al'Qa-ida statement about how we didn't build the mosque would go something like this:
"this proves that the enemies of the monotheists hold a false view of their so-called freedom of religion"

maybe an additional sentence or two, and it would generate maybe 5 responses of mild agreement from the jihadi internet crowd.


An article on the importance of such a mosque near ground zero has already been posted, and has already generated a crapload of Jihadi responses...watch it grow if this thing gets built.

like I said, open up google translator and do some research. there's only three sites to look at, and the posts ought not be hard to find. or talk to ANY OSINT guy.

That American's deciding not to allow the Mosque being built would be an "infinitely" more useful propaganda victory is flatly and completely wrong. I apologize and I see from your post count that you are a senior member to the forum. However, I do this stuff for a living, 12 hours a day, seven days a week. And if you don't take my word for it, go google OSINT analysts, or go straight to the source with a translator.


Now whether America decides to build the Mosque or not it not my topic of concern. I see the value in going either way with an opinion on the topic.

The propaganda value of such a mosque is. And your statement of its "infinitely" greater propaganda value is simply and flatly incorrect.

-Jon

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

You should think of the positive aspects of this... the mosque will bring in 150 full time jobs, 500 part time jobs, and an investment in more than $100 million in infrastructure in the city's financial district.

[J.C.]

You've gone two posts without explaining exactly how building a mosque would be more beneficial as propaganda than not building it would be.

You don't have to apologize to me, my post count doesn't mean anything and it certainly doesn't add validity to the things I say.

[Zeran]

as the length of time we spend as foreign invaders in islamic countries increases, so too does the probability of terrorism expanding increase. that's how more americans will come home in coffins, and not the building of a mosque in new york city.

[Laotzu]

I don't believe this is the appropriate place for a treatise on the "Jihadist Mind" as it relates to this discussion, but I'll try my best.

Lets take two facts related to this circumstance for this micro-explanation:

AL-Qa'ida has successfully targeted propaganda at "homegrown" Jihadists, generally using Al-Alwaki (the NM born sheikh in Jordan presently). To date, Al-Alwaki has been directly tied to every terrorist action in America in recent months that you can think about (Underwear bomber, Fort Hood, Time Square). He and Al-Qa'ida of the Arab Peninsula have stated and actively engage in propaganda efforts targeting disenfranchised military aged males in America both Muslim and non-Muslim alike. These have led to significant actions both in the recruitment numbers in Americans who come to the mid-east and in the number of "spectacular attacks" that we've seen take place in America of late.... Long story short, Al'Qa'ida has had a recent track record of successful recruitment and retention within the states (I'd advice looking into reports on Al'Qa-ida's "Inspire" magazine if you want some more info on this, and their current efforts) as a direct result of its propagnda efforts. These efforts have both cost the American taxpayers a CRAPLOAD of money in detection and prevention, and thankfully haven't resulted in any civilian KIAs to date

Now we can take the general Jihadist opinion of America's "Freedom of Religion" which they already believe we don't ACTUALLY have as it relates to Muslim (and as several prior posts point out, may actually be true to one degree or another). What actions have resulted as a result of perceived slights against Muslim and Jihadist expressions of religious freedoms in the west? Well, I doubt you can name a terrorist attack that has happened as a result of it, I can't. I can inform you that of course there is some anger out there in the Muslim world as a result (see ABC reporting where the crowds were chanting "Death to England" in Arabic behind an oblivious reporter). I can also give you a specific example of a very pertinent recent slight against Muslim, and possibly Jihadist, freedom of religion. check out http://www.iraqsolidaridad.org/ (http://www.iraqsolidaridad.org/) get out your Google translators for that page (Spanish) or dig through to find the parts that are in English, and do some research as to what happened as a result of this slight.


It IS a propaganda victory for the Jihadist elements in the Muslim world. There is a microcosm example of how propaganda targeting the west has directly resulted in the increase in American expenditures, the increase in jihadist "spectacular" attacks on the west, and the recruitment and retention of Jihadists. and an example of extremely recent retardation of Muslim freedom of speech which produced little to no visible effect on the Jihadist community.


The sanctity of the freedom of religion and speech may be such that this is actually important to allow, or it may not...Again, whether America chooses to allow the Mosque to be built or not is NOT my fight. I understand the moral argument to be made. However, the propaganda value is undeniable from where I sit.

Again, it's easy enough to simply go look and see what the jihadists themselves have to say on the manner.


And Zeran, you are almost certainly correct. Though, the "forien invaders in Islamic countries" is probably a seperate conversation than one that revolves around the Mosque at ground zero.

[J.C.]

AL-Qa'ida has successfully targeted propaganda at "homegrown" Jihadists, generally using Al-Alwaki (the NM born sheikh in Jordan presently). To date, Al-Alwaki has been directly tied to every terrorist action in America in recent months that you can think about (Underwear bomber, Fort Hood, Time Square). He and Al-Qa'ida of the Arab Peninsula have stated and actively engage in propaganda efforts targeting disenfranchised military aged males in America both Muslim and non-Muslim alike. These have led to significant actions both in the recruitment numbers in Americans who come to the mid-east and in the number of "spectacular attacks" that we've seen take place in America of late.... Long story short, Al'Qa'ida has had a recent track record of successful recruitment and retention within the states (I'd advice looking into reports on Al'Qa-ida's "Inspire" magazine if you want some more info on this, and their current efforts) as a direct result of its propagnda efforts. These efforts have both cost the American taxpayers a CRAPLOAD of money in detection and prevention, and thankfully haven't resulted in any civilian KIAs to date

You're suggesting I read Al Qaeda propaganda in order to understand the results their propaganda is having?

Now we can take the general Jihadist opinion of America's "Freedom of Religion" which they already believe we don't ACTUALLY have as it relates to Muslim (and as several prior posts point out, may actually be true to one degree or another). What actions have resulted as a result of perceived slights against Muslim and Jihadist expressions of religious freedoms in the west? Well, I doubt you can name a terrorist attack that has happened as a result of it, I can't. I can inform you that of course there is some anger out there in the Muslim world as a result (see ABC reporting where the crowds were chanting "Death to England" in Arabic behind an oblivious reporter).

We aren't talking about whether that would be the basis for an attack, we're talking about its usefulness as propaganda/a recruiting tool. You spoke earlier of fence-sitters and I don't see how it's more likely they'd be more sympathetic to the Jihadist cause if we embraced their religion than if we shunned it. If you're speaking exclusively about sympathizers here at home who they're targeting, they've already begun doing that and some mosque in New York City is not going to somehow enhance the probability we get attacked, particularly with the amount of scrutiny it would be under.

[Laotzu]

You're suggesting I read Al Qaeda propaganda in order to understand the results their propaganda is having?

Hell, or read articles describing the success that such propaganda has had in recent months in recruitment and retention if you’d like. I was providing you with additional resources to backup the points made. That was not an attempt to provide you with an additional line of text for you to take out of context while completely failing to comment on the rest of the paragraph. It remains true that "Al'Qa'ida has had a recent track record of successful recruitment and retention within the states as a direct result of its propagnda efforts." regardless of what YOU decide to read or not. I only added additional sources for those who would wish to observe the open source information out there. Don't read it if you don't wish to, though dissecting that whole paragraph in order to parse out only the brackets I included in one sentence feel disingenuous.

As to the rest...

What I was attempting to present was a case of comparison. This was in result to your specific request

"how building a mosque would be more beneficial as propaganda than not building it would be."

While I attempted to do this in my second post by identifying the volume of comments such propaganda generally receives within Jihadist communities, I must have been unclear, as you requested specifics.

Providing specific examples of "how building a mosque would be more beneficial as propaganda than not building it would be" is impossible without a time machine, so I attempted to provide two examples for comparison based on the end-result of either action (allowing the mosque or not).

In the case where we allow the mosque to be built, I presented evidence showing how recent propaganda targeted individuals within America and produced tangible effects.

In the case where we don't allow the mosque to be built, I presented evidence of a case where Muslim freedom of speech was curtailed and produced no tangible effects.

This evidence shows a correlation between the degree of propaganda value and its tangible effects (which are the desired result of propaganda) on its target audience in two cases that can “stand in” as representations for the current debate in absence of an available time machine.

Now, if we are going to entertain the "line by line" dissection of posts, I can do that as well...

We aren't talking about whether that would be the basis for an attack, we're talking about its usefulness as propaganda/a recruiting tool.

As stated, the tangible effects of a given set of propaganda are measurements for the effect that a propaganda article or action had on a given target audience. Thus, the quantity and quality of attacks that can be tied to a given propaganda series are EXACTLY what we were talking about. I attempted to qualify the effectiveness of either case in my second post to by using the number of Jihadist responses likely. You disapproved. So now I used other tangibles (like quantity of attacks directly related to known propaganda) as a method of measurement for propaganda effectiveness.

If this method also doesn’t meet your approval, I’m welcome to some other measurement. Unfortunately, in order to discuss the degree of effectiveness in an article, as you have requested I do, I MUST have some mechanism for measurement. IF neither of the measurements I’ve provided are of the caliber your desire, then please identify some other mechanism so I may speak intelligibly on the matter.

You spoke earlier of fence-sitters and I don't see how it's more likely they'd be more sympathetic to the Jihadist cause if we embraced their religion than if we shunned it.

I reiterate the second instance I presented, where the shunning of freedom of speech produced no tangible effects. (again, check out the links) Where as the opposite produced dynamic tangible results.

If you're speaking exclusively about sympathizers here at home who they're targeting, they've already begun doing that

It is certainly true that they have begun doing that, and the Fort Hood Massacre, Time Square, and Christmas Day bombers are tangible results of it. These are things I'd rather not see happen.

some mosque in New York City is not going to somehow enhance the probability we get attacked,

This is just a restatement of the principle point we are discussing.

particularly with the amount of scrutiny it would be under.

Second and third order effects matter when we're discussing the quality of propaganda. The mosque's existence will directly correlate with the degree of propaganda generated within the muslim world. I don't think this has to be explained...The pictures of 9/11 led to marches and demonstrations all over the mulsim world in support of the attackers. Those marchers weren't direct participants in the attack, yet the actions of 9/11 had a direct result in increasing the popularity of Jihadists in the muslim world. The second and third order effects of a propaganda item or action are generally accepted common sense, and I won't degrade your intelligence if you won't degrade mine. No one actually believes that the mosque is going to be exuding hate-speech at their "calls to prayer." Please don't make such silly statements as to lead me, or anyone else, to believe that YOU or I actually believe that the mosque ITSELF will be the source for the propaganda we are discussing.


The point of argument, unless I am mistaken, is that you disagree with my statement that the Propaganda value resulting from a Mosque being built near Ground Zero is greater than it would be if we didn't allow it. Which, unless I'm not seeing some applicable point, has nothing to do with the degree of scrutiny such a Mosque would be under.[/font]

[zion the lion]

maybe it's just me but when it comes to the political ads "alaskan" seems to generally mean white, a pile of inherited money, and/or a good dose of nepotism.

Throw in a picture of them fishing with their family and I think you've got it.

[samsara]

I think the whole giving it time argument is weak. Its been 9 years which isn't a whole lot of time, but if people actually had their way 30 years probably wouldn't be enough.

And the whole 'who is the funding from' is just a big excuse for trying to delay things. It could be from private donors or fundraising so there wouldn't be any information to give out in the first place.

[Anesthetic]

Nothing wrong with Muslims, but next to Ground Zero? Really? I normally don't give a shit about much but I just find that conflicting, can't they take their mosque 3 miles up the road or something?

[Love As Arson]

All Al-Qaeda needs for its propaganda is footage of Palestinians being slaughtered by American weapons, US troops killing civilians on Middle Eastern ground and bases being built which are larger than the Vatican.

[caveBEAR]

Nothing wrong with Muslims, but next to Ground Zero? Really? I normally don't give a shit about much but I just find that conflicting, can't they take their mosque 3 miles up the road or something?

Why can't they put it right where they want it? If it's so easy for you to kick them 3 miles away, why can't they go where they want? You know, since it's nothing against Muslims, apparently.

[perceptrons]

Nothing wrong with Muslims, but next to Ground Zero? Really? I normally don't give a shit about much but I just find that conflicting, can't they take their mosque 3 miles up the road or something?
"Nothing against Muslims, but here's a bigoted statement towards Muslims"

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

While they are not the be-all, end-all authority, the Manhattan Community Board approved this by a vote of 29-1.

[caveBEAR]

While they are not the be-all, end-all authority, the Manhattan Community Board approved this by a vote of 29-1.

Where does the Manhattan Community Board's funding come from? How many Muslims are on the Board? Why doesn't the Manhattan Community Board just go to Trenton? They're just re-opening old wounds...

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Michael Bloomberg has no objection towards it (http://www.myfoxny.com/dpps/news/bloomberg-defends-ground-zero-mosque-dpgonc-km-20100530_7820866).

[GuitarR0cker1]

The people building the Mosque are idiots imo.

[loveisdead]

The people building the Mosque are idiots imo.

Wanna expand on that a bit?

[GuitarR0cker1]

Wanna expand on that a bit?
This does nothing to relieve tensions between Muslims and the average American, it only inflames them. Personally I do not care about this issue and think they are in their rights to build a Mosque there but for them to think that this would boost the average person's view of Islam is idiotic. Overall: I don't care. Still it is obvious that this move to build the Mosque would be unpopular and controversial. They shouldn't have pressed the issue.

[loveisdead]

This does nothing to relieve tensions between Muslims and the average American, it only inflames them. Personally I do not care about this issue and think they are in their rights to build a Mosque there but for them to think that this would boost the average person's view of Islam is idiotic. Overall: I don't care. Still it is obvious that this move to build the Mosque would be unpopular and controversial. They shouldn't have pressed the issue.

It goes back to what was said a few times in this thread. They can build it wherever they want. If people have a problem with it, they are being inherently racist whether they know it or not. It isn't their job to change, it's the people trying to stop them who should.

[GuitarR0cker1]

It goes back to what was said a few times in this thread. They can build it wherever they want. If people have a problem with it, they are being inherently racist whether they know it or not. It isn't their job to change, it's the people trying to stop them who should.
I agree in principle. I'm saying that if Muslims wanted to do things more practically they wouldn't force this issue. Americans have actually been surprisingly lenient to them considering the circumstances. I just really fear that the Xenophobia we've been experiencing lately will make things tougher for Muslims.

[loveisdead]

I agree in principle. I'm saying that if Muslims wanted to do things more practically they wouldn't force this issue. Americans have actually been surprisingly lenient to them considering the circumstances. I just really fear that the Xenophobia we've been experiencing lately will make things tougher for Muslims.

How can you blame them? They live in a country founded on a principle of freedom of religion. I would fight back too if I were told "no" to building an establishment. What are they supposed to say?

[GuitarR0cker1]

How can you blame them? They live in a country founded on a principle of freedom of religion. I would fight back too if I were told "no" to building an establishment. What are they supposed to say?
If they were being told "no" to build an establishment anywhere else by anyone, I would be angry. This is Ground Zero. They know what they are doing. They knew that they were opening a can of worms when they were decided to try and build it there. They didn't need to build it there. They did it anyways. Conservatives with no grasp of the issues were going to have one more thing to attack the Islamic community with.

Anyways people are told "no" when they want to build an establishment somewhere all the time. It's called zoning.

[caveBEAR]

This does nothing to relieve tensions between Muslims and the average American, it only inflames them. Personally I do not care about this issue and think they are in their rights to build a Mosque there but for them to think that this would boost the average person's view of Islam is idiotic. Overall: I don't care. Still it is obvious that this move to build the Mosque would be unpopular and controversial. They shouldn't have pressed the issue.

I've said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again;

People don't have to work harder to overcome other people's prejudices, people with prejudices have to work harder to overcome their own prejudices.

[loveisdead]

If they were being told "no" to build an establishment anywhere else by anyone, I would be angry. This is Ground Zero. They know what they are doing. They knew that they were opening a can of worms when they were decided to try and build it there. They didn't need to build it there. They did it anyways. Conservatives with no grasp of the issues were going to have one more thing to attack the Islamic community with.

Anyways people are told "no" when they want to build an establishment somewhere all the time. It's called zoning.

So you're comparing people not being able to build something to do a zoning issue to people being told they can't build something cause it's too close to a sensitive area? I don't think that's a very apt comparison.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I've said it before in this thread, and I'll say it again;

People don't have to work harder to overcome other people's prejudices, people with prejudices have to work harder to overcome their own prejudices.

Americans aren't people when it comes to Islam. They are goons and fucking idiots. They think that Muslims are evil and the cause of destruction.

[loveisdead]

Americans aren't people when it comes to Islam. They are goons and fucking idiots. They think that Muslims are evil and the cause of destruction.

It's frustrating that you're smart enough to realize this, but backwards enough to defend those goons and fucking idiots.

[GuitarR0cker1]

So you're comparing people not being able to build something to do a zoning issue to people being told they can't build something cause it's too close to a sensitive area? I don't think that's a very apt comparison.
I think it is a very apt comparison. Public opinion often determines zoning when it shouldn't.

I hate arguing this because I agree with you almost 100%. I actually got angry when I saw the media's depiction of this issue and how the conservative talking heads essentially compared Islam to Nazism. It made me sad. But at the same time this didn't have to happen.

[GuitarR0cker1]

It's frustrating that you're smart enough to realize this, but backwards enough to defend those goons and fucking idiots.
Public opinion determines policy. People need to see this and try to change the public opinion, instead of only trying to change the policy. That's the nature of politics.

[loveisdead]

Public opinion determines policy. People need to see this and try to change the public opinion, instead of only trying to change the policy. That's the nature of politics.

How is this in any way true? Health care wouldn't have passed if this was true.

[GuitarR0cker1]

How is this in any way true? Health care wouldn't have passed if this was true.
Notice how many concessions the Democrats made and how Obama made the deal with the Insurance companies and Pharma. Notice how it barely passed when it was an extremely conservative plan and the Democrats had an almost supermajority. This happened because they didn't sell it well. We could have had a strong bill if the Democrats decided to fight for this bill and do it with a populist attitude like Truman or FDR would have and like Obama did in March.

Plus HCR really isn't that unpopular. It's about a 40-50-10(Support/Against/Undecided) issue and this is with a bill with a bunch of unpopular provisions.

Edit: Shit I need to go over this in a really long post. Will come later.

[Skadrist]

Notice how many concessions the Democrats made and how Obama made the deal with the Insurance companies and Pharma. Notice how it barely passed when it was an extremely conservative plan and the Democrats had an almost supermajority. This happened because they didn't sell it well. We could have had a strong bill if the Democrats decided to fight for this bill and do it with a populist attitude like Truman or FDR would have and like Obama did in March.

Plus HCR really isn't that unpopular. It's about a 40-50-10(Support/Against/Undecided) issue and this is with a bill with a bunch of unpopular provisions.

Edit: Shit I need to go over this in a really long post. Will come later.


Democrats could use their fair share of jingoism at times. If they would have sold the plan as "The whole of the developed world has a public option and actually have better health care than us." Instead of pussyfooting around with the original bill.

[GuitarR0cker1]

Democrats could use their fair share of jingoism at times. If they would have sold the plan as "The whole of the developed world has a public option and actually have better health care than us." Instead of pussyfooting around with the original bill.
Exactly. Obama should have gone into this with a set of specific guidelines for a bill immediately and try to sell that specific plan using angry populist rhetoric. When the insurance companies and pharma attack, he should have attacked them head on as the ones who created this problem along with Nixon's Administration(always a good one to attack haha). He also could have explained how the bill would be good for the economy and used more pathos about dying grandmothers.

Too bad Obama is terrible at being a populist and can't connect well with the working class.

We need more of this:
kOdIqKsv624

Less of this:
_fMNIofUw2I

[caveBEAR]

Americans aren't people when it comes to Islam. They are goons and fucking idiots. They think that Muslims are evil and the cause of destruction.

So? Fuck those people. Muslims don't need to change their ways or do things the majority wouldn't have to (I think we can all agree Palin would be completely alright with a church at Ground Zero) to earn acceptance or smooth out the situation.

For the people that are freaking out; tough titties.

[GuitarR0cker1]

So? Fuck those people. Muslims don't need to change their ways or do things the majority wouldn't have to (I think we can all agree Palin would be completely alright with a church at Ground Zero) to earn acceptance or smooth out the situation.

For the people that are freaking out; tough titties.
All I was I saying is that it would be practical and smart for Muslims to do some things to change public opinion. They've already done plenty, but I still can't help but think building the mosque at Ground Zero was a mistake for them.

[open mind]

Exactly. Obama should have gone into this with a set of specific guidelines for a bill immediately and try to sell that specific plan using angry populist rhetoric. When the insurance companies and pharma attack, he should have attacked them head on as the ones who created this problem along with Nixon's Administration(always a good one to attack haha). He also could have explained how the bill would be good for the economy and used more pathos about dying grandmothers.

Too bad Obama is terrible at being a populist and can't connect well with the working class.

We need more of this:
kOdIqKsv624

Less of this:
_fMNIofUw2I



we do need much more forceful leaders. it seems to me that the left has given up on taming the rabid beast (of big business/money) and resorted to hoping that a little petting will someday change it.

[Zeran]

yeah, and it's pathetic.

[Machu505]

I first heard about this project a month or two ago, and the thing that struck me the most about it was the overwhelming support it had from the local community board in Lower Manhattan. As you are probably familiar it is nearly impossible to have a community board agree on even the most mundane issues, so to have a community board agree 29-1 on ANY this particular issue is quite an accomplishment.

Furthermore, why is land use in New York City the business of anyone else but the citizens of New York? If so, I would really like to know Sarah Palin's opinion of the Atlantic Yards (or Hudson Yards or the expansion of Columbia University) project, an issue that is 1,000,000x more controversial than this project. That's all this is: a land use issue.

Following her logic (no small feat, I might add), do I now have the right to protest the construction of a new office building in Anchorage because it may house the offices of an oil company and might insult the people who suffered from the BP oil spill?

Or can I have a say the next time some city in the "heartland" (because apparently that is the place that has veto power over land use in New York) decides to build more sprawl at the expense of more livable communities with mixed-use development, walkable streets, and public transportation? I think I should because it really "stabs me in the heart" when places do that.

This is a local issue, plain and simple. The people of New York, the ones actually attacked on 9/11 and who had to live through the aftermath, are the only ones who are effected by this and don't seem to have a problem with it, so no one else should. It is no one else's business. Sarah Palin and the "heartland" do not have permanent veto power over what gets built in Lower Manhattan. If they want a say over what happens there, my advice would be to move to New York. They might even learn something about the values of living in a multi-ethnic, multicultural community.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/07/enough_already_3.php?ref=fpi

[caveBEAR]

Government should never — never — be in the business of telling people how they should pray, or where they can pray.

- Michael Bloomberg

[sdbrown]

I don't have a problem with it, but why don't we all just keep religion to ourselves and try not to create trouble. Some ignorant person would be bound to do something stupid to a mosque if it was put there. Lets just move forward and accept each other for what we're worth.
If something happens to the Mosque, it's going to suck but you shouldn't let fear of vandalism or whatnot prevent you from doing what you have the freedom to do.

mjGJPPRD3u0
Is this real? If so, sickening.

If they were being told "no" to build an establishment anywhere else by anyone, I would be angry. This is Ground Zero. They know what they are doing. They knew that they were opening a can of worms when they were decided to try and build it there. They didn't need to build it there. They did it anyways. Conservatives with no grasp of the issues were going to have one more thing to attack the Islamic community with.

Anyways people are told "no" when they want to build an establishment somewhere all the time. It's called zoning.
But as long as it's within the zoning area there shouldn't be a problem. They probably didn't target a location a few blocks from ground zero, they were probably scouting a site in the area and this is the one that became available. And they want a mosque there for the same reason a big company wants space in a building in that area: location. I don't know the demographics of who lives/works in that area but I'm guessing if they couldn't attract members they wouldn't build.

[J.C.]

If something happens to the Mosque, it's going to suck but you shouldn't let fear of vandalism or whatnot prevent you from doing what you have the freedom to do.

Otherwise the terrorists win.

[sdbrown]

Otherwise the terrorists win.
haha, this went through my mind as I was typing that.

[GuitarR0cker1]

But as long as it's within the zoning area there shouldn't be a problem. They probably didn't target a location a few blocks from ground zero, they were probably scouting a site in the area and this is the one that became available. And they want a mosque there for the same reason a big company wants space in a building in that area: location. I don't know the demographics of who lives/works in that area but I'm guessing if they couldn't attract members they wouldn't build.
It's a cultural center, not a house of worship. It doesn't really need a base demographic.

But yeah the building plan was approved unanimously by the Community Board for the neighborhood and in the neighborhood itself nobody cares. It's not an desicion that far-right xenophobes in Utah should be able to have any say in.

[Mitch]

Wrote a shitty little blog post (http://icanalmostsee.wordpress.com/2010/07/22/oh-newt/) about this today.

[caveBEAR]

The 'Ground Zero Mosque' is over two blocks away from Ground Zero, can't be seen from Ground Zero, and requires someone to walk out of their way (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-sledge/just-how-far-is-the-groun_b_660585.html) to end up near it on the way from any major transportation to Ground Zero.

[Mitch]

Looks like it's set to be built. (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/mosque-near-ground-zero-clears-key-hurdle/?hp)

[crackedthesky]

I'm getting really sick of the whole "it's insensitive" debate. Other religions exist. That isn't insensitivity on the part of anyone but whomever chooses to be offended by it.

Why the family of a victim of 9/11 would be offended that Muslims are allowed to exist within two blocks of Ground Zero should be offended is beyond me. What's offensive about it? It's not like the people praying in the mosque are the ones who flew those planes.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Isn't the site 2 or 3 blocks away and if you cannot even see ground zero from the location of the mosque?

[crackedthesky]

Isn't the site 2 or 3 blocks away and if you cannot even see ground zero from the location of the mosque?

Yeah, it's like down the street and around the corner, and is being backed by an organization dedicated to repair Western and Muslim relations. The mosque will include services for teaching people of all religions to tolerate each other.

[Machu505]

The mosque will include services for teaching people of all religions to tolerate each other.
HERESY!

[crackedthesky]

HERESY!

Basically :shrug:

[Scrandon]

Looks like it's set to be built. (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/mosque-near-ground-zero-clears-key-hurdle/?hp)Good thing our judges aren't as irrational/emotional as a significant portion of the public.

[ghsNICK!]

Edited

[Mitch]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-sledge/just-how-far-is-the-groun_b_660585.html

[Mitch]

Anyone that condones this is a moron and needs to experience real loss than judge the situation.

No Japanese shrine or place of worship or architecture would EVER be built anywhere NEAR Pearl Harbor.
But you get some Islamic idiots who say they "just" want to build a mosque near Ground Zero where many innocent Americans were killed by people in "their" religion on a huge terrorist attack on our country. It's absolutely ridiculous and shouldn't be allowed out of respect for all the innocent Americans killed.

Why build it right there if it isn't a big deal? Maybe 10-15 blocks away?

Anyone here knows if it was someone in their family, maybe their mom or dad killed in those attacks...they would be against this happening.
But instead we have a bunch of ignorant people where 9/11 really never meant anything to them and think..."Oh yeah it's fine...they just want to build this mosque...no harm done."

Complete bullshit. And deep down you know these people smile at the thought that their people committed the greatest attack on America.

I would take the time to respond but it's so much easier to tell you to fuck off than it is to explain how wrong and offensive this post is.

[Scrandon]

Anyone that condones this is a moron and needs to experience real loss than judge the situation.

No Japanese shrine or place of worship or architecture would EVER be built anywhere NEAR Pearl Harbor.
But you get some Islamic idiots who say they "just" want to build a mosque near Ground Zero where many innocent Americans were killed by people in "their" religion on a huge terrorist attack on our country. It's absolutely ridiculous and shouldn't be allowed out of respect for all the innocent Americans killed.

Why build it right there if it isn't a big deal? Maybe 10-15 blocks away?

Anyone here knows if it was someone in their family, maybe their mom or dad killed in those attacks...they would be against this happening.
But instead we have a bunch of ignorant people where 9/11 really never meant anything to them and think..."Oh yeah it's fine...they just want to build this mosque...no harm done."
Your a fucking racist idiot, and calling other people ignorant doesn't help your argument.
Let me guess... we should also kick out all illegal immigrants because one ran over a nun today.

Complete bullshit. And deep down you know these people smile at the thought that their people committed the greatest attack on America.
What the fuck is this? You serious? My dear Lord...

Edit: Fuck off

[eriatarka24]

so quick to say "racist"

this part of AP is scary, everyone gets so angry. :-d

[loveisdead]

Anyone that condones this is a moron and needs to experience real loss than judge the situation.
Then*. What is real loss? I lost my father when I was 17. I walked in on him having a heart attack, gave him cpr and watched him die on my arms right downstairs from where I am now. Did I not experience enough loss to judge the situation? More importantly, why does experiencing loss have to make one intolerant and ignorant?

No Japanese shrine or place of worship or architecture would EVER be built anywhere NEAR Pearl Harbor.
Japan is a country. Islam is a religion. This is a stupid comparison.
But you get some Islamic idiots who say they "just" want to build a mosque near Ground Zero where many innocent Americans were killed by people in "their" religion on a huge terrorist attack on our country. It's absolutely ridiculous and shouldn't be allowed out of respect for all the innocent Americans killed.
Why is just in quotes? Why is their in quotes? Regardless, these people did nothing wrong. Nobody has any right to tell them where they can and cannot worship. Should we not allow churches to be built near Oklahoma out of respect for those who lost loved ones when McVeigh blew up shit?
Why build it right there if it isn't a big deal?
You and the opponents of it being built there are the ones making it a big deal about it, not them.
Anyone here knows if it was someone in their family, maybe their mom or dad killed in those attacks...they would be against this happening.
Thankfully, no one in my family died that day. However, a few friends of mine lost their fathers that day. I was pulled out of classes so that I could sit and talk with them when shit got rough for them during the day. The attacks of that day are really close to my heart, but I am not against this.
But instead we have a bunch of ignorant people where 9/11 really never meant anything to them and think..."Oh yeah it's fine...they just want to build this mosque...no harm done."
Rather than flip out at the assumption that 9/11 meant nothing to me or the rest of the people who don't have a problem with this, I'll just ask you a question. What harm could possibly be done?
Complete bullshit. And deep down you know these people smile at the thought that their people committed the greatest attack on America.
You are a racist piece of shit.

Edit: Make your response to this good, cause you're getting banned after it.

[loveisdead]

so quick to say "racist"

this part of AP is scary, everyone gets so angry. :-d

What he said was incredibly racist.

[Scrandon]

so quick to say "racist"

this part of AP is scary, everyone gets so angry. :-d

It is racist, it's disappointing that people actually think that way. Calling him out on it is the only thing we can do to try to get him to re-examine his view.

[loveisdead]

so quick to say "racist"

this part of AP is scary, everyone gets so angry. :-d

I'd encourage you to read through the general politics thread. Everyone gets along in there.

[ghsNICK!]

Edited

[GeeBee]

Give this racist fuck the ban-hammer. It's not even worth the time to argue with someone this daft.

[jwicklun]

Anyone that condones this is a moron and needs to experience real loss than judge the situation.

No Japanese shrine or place of worship or architecture would EVER be built anywhere NEAR Pearl Harbor.
But you get some Islamic idiots who say they "just" want to build a mosque near Ground Zero where many innocent Americans were killed by people in "their" religion on a huge terrorist attack on our country. It's absolutely ridiculous and shouldn't be allowed out of respect for all the innocent Americans killed.

Why build it right there if it isn't a big deal? Maybe 10-15 blocks away?

Anyone here knows if it was someone in their family, maybe their mom or dad killed in those attacks...they would be against this happening.
But instead we have a bunch of ignorant people where 9/11 really never meant anything to them and think..."Oh yeah it's fine...they just want to build this mosque...no harm done."

Complete bullshit. And deep down you know these people smile at the thought that their people committed the greatest attack on America.
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[loveisdead]

The point being he wasn't murdered in a terrorist attack.
Natural cause is WAY different...and I'm sorry for your loss.
You said to experience loss. You never specified which kind. And thank you.
So racism is race...not religion. So don't call me a RACIST...contradicting much?
Call it what you will, you're blanketing an entire group of people into one category for what a dozen or so people did 9 years ago.
He didn't blow up shit "for" the Christian religion...unlike the terrorist who DID do it for their religion.
You're retarded if you think the entire reason they did it was for their religion. In fact, find me the part of the Quaran where it says to blow up buildings of the people you don't agree with....oh, that's right.
Uh duh. Why wouldn't we. Someone takes a shit on your porch and wants to camp in your backyard doesn't make much sense...or maybe it does to you
You said that we were making the stink. Now you've completely changed your argument (or whatever you call what you're doing).
Same here. But on that note I have a buddy who is Muslim...and he's not against it (obviously) but he thinks there could be a MILLION other places to build one and it is a little strange they want one built where followers of his religion...in their religions name...made the biggest attack against America...ever.
Cool. You hang out with people as intolerant as you are. That fine. Where this place is built should not matter at all.
Are you serious? You know how many crazy MF's are out there...that place will be attacked an more innocent people will be killed. (Which IS a shame.)
I hope that people will realize their hypocrisy before thinking of doing that.
Religion is an ideology and has nothing to do with ones skin color or race. So it's is the height of stupidity for people to claim that being against a set of ideas is some how racist.
It seems like you're against them, as a people. I haven't seen you once attack the ideals of Islam.
Get more power hungry why don't ya?
I'm not power hungry at all. Don't post offensive things and you won't get banned. Take this month off and come back smarter.

[Scrandon]

Uh duh. Why wouldn't we. Someone takes a shit on your porch and wants to camp in your backyard doesn't make much sense...or maybe it does to you?

It's not the same people, see, this is where the racism comes in. Grouping together all people of a certain race/religion with the actions of a few is where you fucking lose it.

[jwicklun]

The ban hammer strikes again. Thank you for silencing that dumbass.

[GeeBee]

Take this month off and come back smarter.

:appl:

[eriatarka24]

They claimed it was in the name of Islam, it doesn't mean the Quaran has to say it. Same with Christianity. Just because a Christian says it's for God or because God says so, doesn't mean it is. Both are wrong. :shrug:

[Fozzie]

so does anybody think the mosque is a good idea?

[GeeBee]

so does anybody think the mosque is a good idea?

I think it's a lousy idea because I think religions are all bullshit. But I support it 100% because it's their fucking property and they have the right to do with it as they please.

[eriatarka24]

so does anybody think the mosque is a good idea?
eh. they don't "have" to build it near ground zero. is it NECESSARY they build it near there? no. CAN THEY? yes.

is there a reason they want to build it THERE and not somewhere ELSE? :shrug: I dunno.

[GeeBee]

They claimed it was in the name of Islam, it doesn't mean the Quaran has to say it. Same with Christianity. Just because a Christian says it's for God or because God says so, doesn't mean it is. Both are wrong. :shrug:

Wrong. 9/11 wasn't committed out of adherence to Islam. Do more reading.

[Scrandon]

They claimed it was in the name of Islam, it doesn't mean the Quaran has to say it. Same with Christianity. Just because a Christian says it's for God or because God says so, doesn't mean it is. Both are wrong. :shrug:
Bingo.
so does anybody think the mosque is a good idea?
It's a good idea to let them do as they please.

[Scrandon]

Wrong. 9/11 wasn't committed out of adherence to Islam. Do more reading.
They claimed it to be though, doesn't mean they were correct in doing so.

[Fozzie]

Wrong. 9/11 wasn't committed out of adherence to Islam. Do more reading.

But man, that's the issue. Most people don't do more reading, and most people think that 9/11 was directly influenced by Islamic principles. They're not right, and yes, they're stupid and intolerant and they should read more, and yes, most of "them" are the Christian Right, but any way you look at it, building a mosque on ground zero is just going to spell "s-h-i-t-s-t-o-r-m" for anyone involved. It's a stupid idea for many reasons and the proposal really should be dropped and forgotten about.

[Scrandon]

But man, that's the issue. Most people don't do more reading, and most people think that 9/11 was directly influenced by Islamic principles. They're not right, and yes, they're stupid and intolerant and they should read more, and yes, most of "them" are the Christian Right, but any way you look at it, building a mosque on ground zero is just going to spell "s-h-i-t-s-t-o-r-m" for anyone involved. It's a stupid idea for many reasons and the proposal really should be dropped and forgotten about.
Maybe allowing it will create the opportunity for progress, and, as was mentioned in the posted article, most of the people actually surrounding the issue (New Yorkers) don't have a problem.

[samsara]

Wow that dude was stupid. Let people build it where ever they want. Its not like its directly there next to ground zero, its a few blocks away.

[eriatarka24]

Wrong. 9/11 wasn't committed out of adherence to Islam. Do more reading.
lol. riiiight. i'm actually in a religion class right now which is discussing this exact thing, so i wouldn't say something like that if i wasn't confident enough about it being accurate. "do more reading"

[GeeBee]

They claimed it to be though, doesn't mean they were correct in doing so.

lol. riiiight. i'm actually in a religion class right now which is discussing this exact thing, so i wouldn't say something like that if i wasn't confident enough about it being accurate. "do more reading"

9/11 was a political statement, not a religious one. Anyone telling you otherwise has an agenda.

[eriatarka24]

But man, that's the issue. Most people don't do more reading, and most people think that 9/11 was directly influenced by Islamic principles. They're not right, and yes, they're stupid and intolerant and they should read more, and yes,
I am specifically studying an interview with an American muslim scholar right now that is discussing the terrorist issue. She admits they did it for religious reasons but because she KNOWS it is not CORRECT to do so, she does not honor it as "religious actions" because she knows they were wrong. they were political actions, but they used their religion for reasoning.


BILL MOYERS: When you heard about the terrorists did you feel betrayed? Did you — when you heard that they had done this in the name of Allah, did you feel betrayed?
AZIZAH AL-HIBRI: How do you feel about the Inquisition?
BILL MOYERS: Well, I would have felt betrayed, I think, if — I had been there. Then yes, I mean, I do. I think that somebody — hijacked God.
AZIZAH AL-HIBRI: My reaction was — to, to dismiss the hyperbole, you know, the religious hyperbole and look at their actions naked as they are as political actions.
BILL MOYERS: Political actions.
AZIZAH AL-HIBRI: I will not — I will not honor them.
AZIZAH AL-HIBRI: I will not honor them as religious actions.
BILL MOYERS: But they claimed it was religious.
AZIZAH AL-HIBRI: Yes. Yes, but more importantly there is politics that needs to be dealt with, and here is Islam which if we could explain it to — to a lot of people, not just the non-Muslims — see, I'm more concerned about explaining it to Muslims, that Islam is about harmony and conflict resolution and loving your neighbor. Is — Islam actually — has very clear injunctions about your neighbor and not just your immediate neighbor, many doors down your neighbor.
they claimed it was religious. but they were political actions.

[Scrandon]

9/11 was a political statement, not a religious one. Anyone telling you otherwise has an agenda.
Is it possible to separate politics and religion in this case?

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

But man, that's the issue. Most people don't do more reading, and most people think that 9/11 was directly influenced by Islamic principles. They're not right, and yes, they're stupid and intolerant and they should read more, and yes, most of "them" are the Christian Right, but any way you look at it, building a mosque on ground zero is just going to spell "s-h-i-t-s-t-o-r-m" for anyone involved. It's a stupid idea for many reasons and the proposal really should be dropped and forgotten about.

As I posed the questioned earlier today (by which it was answered), the mosque is not going to be built on ground zero, but blocks away. Have you been to NYC? Manhattan alone is defined by distinct neighborhoods. Yes, the mosque is being built within walking distance, but don't think it's within the World Trade Center Plaza. Also, keep in mind that its construction is years away, with fund raising for the building is the next step. I don't know about you, but I support the freedom of religion, as defined by the Constitution (this coming from an agnostic). Those who committed the atrocities on 9/11 were an isolated group who were brainwashed into believing violence is the answer. I understand your opinions are spurred from emotions, but understand that we can isolate certain individuals (known as extremists) from the general populace of any world religion.

[GeeBee]

Is it possible to separate politics and religion in this case?

9/11 was carried out as a direct response to U.S. policies and actions in the Middle East. Islam was simply the vehicle al-qaeda uses to engender action as a response.

[Zeran]

Looks like it's set to be built. (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/mosque-near-ground-zero-clears-key-hurdle/?hp)

score one for actual american values.

[eriatarka24]

They claimed it to be though, doesn't mean they were correct in doing so.
that's what I meant really :shrug: anyway. :-d

[GeeBee]

score one for actual american values.

Pshsh. You mean, score one for the terrrists.

[caveBEAR]

Well this thread got interesting...

[GeeBee]

Well this thread got interesting...

Fear with an ignorance chaser usually brings the noize in these parts...

[caveBEAR]

Fear with an ignorance chaser usually brings the noize in these parts...

I'd love to sit down and read through it all, but I'll be going out with co-workers in a moment. I'll ask them what they think of the Ground Zero Mosque, that'll probably be pretty close to what just happened in here.

[loveisdead]

Well this thread got interesting...

You missed the fun.

[Scrandon]

9/11 was carried out as a direct response to U.S. policies and actions in the Middle East. Islam was simply the vehicle al-qaeda uses to engender action as a response.

I'm not sure it's possible to separate the two in even the minds of their top leaders, much less the majority of people.

Also, why do you give them so much credit for being so rational when you harp on the Mormons who hate other religions simply for being different? Are they not one in the same?

[GeeBee]

I'm not sure it's possible to separate the two in even the minds of their top leaders, much less the majority of people.

Also, why do you give them so much credit for being so rational when you harp on the Mormons who hate other religions simply for being different? Are they not one in the same?

I'm not saying they're rational at all. All I'm saying is that 9/11 was just as much (if not more) a political statement as it was a religious one.

[loveisdead]

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[Lueda Alia]

Some people make me wish it was possible to reach through my screen, instead of just dropping the banhammer.

Technology needs to get better.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

9/11 was carried out as a direct response to U.S. policies and actions in the Middle East. Islam was simply the vehicle al-qaeda uses to engender action as a response.

Don't forget that Islamic martyrs carry out violent acts because they truly believe that heaven is filled with 73 virgins (an existence that certainly sounds better than living in a cave).

[caveBEAR]

I'm not saying they're rational at all. All I'm saying is that 9/11 was just as much (if not more) a political statement as it was a religious one.

I think people believe you're then leading to the conclusion --> any religious implications surrounding the terrorists is then moot, but I believe you mean more to say that they were using religion as their 'guise', and therefore to coat the entire religion as 'proud' of the attacks (or whatever that racist douche said in that post) is missing the true motives and background on the attacks.

Or I could be wrong, I'm not Geebee. :shrug: