Overrated MLB Players

[Broken Parachute]

I was reading The 100 Greatest Sports Arguements of All Time by Chris 'Mad Dog' Russo. He takes some basic questions about every sport and discusses his views on them. One of them was Overrated Baseball players. He thinks a lot of players are just good players, not great as many make them out to be. His list looked like this:

Past:
Eddie Murray
Dwight Evans
Lou Whitaker
Carlton Fisk
Harold Baines
Bo Jackson
Lee Smith
Bert Blyleven
Terry Pendleton

Current:
Jason Kendell
Raul Mondesi
Manny Ramirez
Bernie Williams

Do you agree with this? Disagree? And who are you're overrated players?

Oh and if you disagree with some of his choices and wanna know why he thinks that, ask me..I'll type up his reason. The book is right next to me.

[thejetstolehome]

I was reading The 100 Greatest Sports Arguements of All Time by Chris 'Mad Dog' Russo. He takes some basic questions about every sport and discusses his views on them. One of them was Overrated Baseball players. He thinks a lot of players are just good players, not great as many make them out to be. His list looked like this:

Past:
Eddie Murray
Dwight Evans
Lou Whitaker
Carlton Fisk
Harold Baines
Bo Jackson
Lee Smith
Bert Blyleven
Terry Pendleton

Current:
Jason Kendell
Raul Mondesi
Manny Ramirez
Bernie Williams

Do you agree with this? Disagree? And who are you're overrated players?

Oh and if you disagree with some of his choices and wanna know why he thinks that, ask me..I'll type up his reason. The book is right next to me.

i disagree with blyleven. and i don't think mondesi is even rated anymore, much less overrated.

[Yankees' #1 Fan]

manny overrated?

russo needs to find christ brah

[hockey0001]

no way is Manny overrated

[Doug]

I was reading The 100 Greatest Sports Arguements of All Time by Chris 'Mad Dog' Russo. He takes some basic questions about every sport and discusses his views on them. One of them was Overrated Baseball players. He thinks a lot of players are just good players, not great as many make them out to be. His list looked like this:

Past:
Eddie Murray
Dwight Evans
Lou Whitaker
Carlton Fisk
Harold Baines
Bo Jackson
Lee Smith
Bert Blyleven
Terry Pendleton

Current:
Jason Kendell
Raul Mondesi
Manny Ramirez
Bernie Williams

Do you agree with this? Disagree? And who are you're overrated players?

Oh and if you disagree with some of his choices and wanna know why he thinks that, ask me..I'll type up his reason. The book is right next to me.

wow, where to start?
jason kendall is overrated? when was the last time jason kendall was praised?
manny ramirez is the best right handed hitter in the league right now.
i would say dewey and pendleton were underrated to some extent.

[Chriz2z]

Too young to know most of the past people. But Manny has 100+ RBIs every year, and he knows how to play the wall.

I never thought Kendall was rated that high, much less overrated. I thought he played pretty well in the Detroit series, considering everyone did terrible for the A's.

Mondesi, as thejet mentioned above, really isn't rated any more.

And I don't think Bernie was counted on this year, but he delivered in a big way for the Yanks when people were hurt.

So, I don't agree with any of that stuff.

[StandMyBrothers]

russo needs to find christ brah
haha that episode was epic

[Dirty Ernie]

AROD!!!!!!!!!


but seriously i always thought billy wagner was overrated, he is just proving my case now...edmonds and tori hunter may be a bit overrated

[Broken Parachute]

I should have mentioned this.

THE BOOK WAS WRITTEN IN 2004

hahaha That's kind of important to note

[thejetstolehome]

i don't think manny is overrated at all, for the record.

[thejetstolehome]

I should have mentioned this.

THE BOOK WAS WRITTEN IN 2004

hahaha That's kind of important to note


haha i think i read this at some point...

[Broken Parachute]

i disagree with blyleven. and i don't think mondesi is even rated anymore, much less overrated.

manny overrated?

russo needs to find christ brah

no way is Manny overrated
Manny Ramirez: Sure, he's an RBI monster, but I don't want him anywhere near my team. He's moody, he never plays hurt. He's a terrible base runner. You've basically got to coerce him to play left field. He's a manager killer. And he makes a billion dollars. You can keep him.

AROD!!!!!!!!!

but seriously i always thought billy wagner was overrated, he is just proving my case now...edmonds and tori hunter may be a bit overrated
Your case for Billy Wagner is valid when you read his case for Lee Smith.

Lee Smith: He leads the universe in career saves but would never get my Hall of Fame vote. I always thought he was so hittable. He was never an overpowering presence, despite his size. He never had the Mariano Rivera quotient, the Bruce Sutter quotient, the Rollie Fingers quotient. It was never lights out when Lee Smith was in the game. Still think he should be in the Hall? 1984, Game four, Cubs-Padres, Jack Murphy, Chicago on the verge of going to its first World Series in three millions years. Lee Smith facing Steve Garvey. It's high, it's far, it's...gone.

[selftitled85]

bernie williams? he was never great. he had some great years but he has been nothing more than good. now he is avg (at best)

[Split2nd]

Yeah, I think I'll take the moodiness if he's putting up OPSs over 1.000.

as far as RH hitters go, it's

1. Pujols
2. Manny
3. ARod
4. Vlad

to me

[bigmike]

Manny Ramirez: Sure, he's an RBI monster, but I don't want him anywhere near my team. He's moody, he never plays hurt. He's a terrible base runner. You've basically got to coerce him to play left field. He's a manager killer. And he makes a billion dollars. You can keep him.


Your case for Billy Wagner is valid when you read his case for Lee Smith.

Lee Smith: He leads the universe in career saves but would never get my Hall of Fame vote. I always thought he was so hittable. He was never an overpowering presence, despite his size. He never had the Mariano Rivera quotient, the Bruce Sutter quotient, the Rollie Fingers quotient. It was never lights out when Lee Smith was in the game. Still think he should be in the Hall? 1984, Game four, Cubs-Padres, Jack Murphy, Chicago on the verge of going to its first World Series in three millions years. Lee Smith facing Steve Garvey. It's high, it's far, it's...gone.
Yeah. Manny's so overrated because there's just tons of guys walking around that continually put up 40 HRs and 140 RBIs year in year out.

[Broken Parachute]

I don't agree with manny, that's about it. Bernie really isn't overrated, or rated at all. So not really valid.

[Split2nd]

Yeah. Manny's so overrated because there's just tons of guys walking around that continually put up 40 HRs and 140 RBIs year in year out.
but he's so moody.

[rcrook]

Lee Smith: He leads the universe in career saves but would never get my Hall of Fame vote. I always thought he was so hittable. He was never an overpowering presence, despite his size. He never had the Mariano Rivera quotient, the Bruce Sutter quotient, the Rollie Fingers quotient. It was never lights out when Lee Smith was in the game. Still think he should be in the Hall? 1984, Game four, Cubs-Padres, Jack Murphy, Chicago on the verge of going to its first World Series in three millions years. Lee Smith facing Steve Garvey. It's high, it's far, it's...gone.


mariano rivera has given up some big hits in some big games and we never question whether or not he is hall of fame material

[DaveFeelsRight]

Carlton Fisk
Harold Baines
Bo Jackson?


no....well maybe bo.

[thejetstolehome]

mariano rivera has given up some big hits in some big games and we never question whether or not he is hall of fame material

but his post season success and overall dominance far outweighs those.

[fcknazisympathy]

Lol Mike and the Mad Dog are such retards.

[rcrook]

but his post season success and overall dominance far outweighs those.

yeah but we still remember that he gave up the winning run against the diamondbacks in game 7...LUIS GONZALEZ

[thejetstolehome]

yeah but we still remember that he gave up the winning run against the diamondbacks in game 7...LUIS GONZALEZ

i wish he never attempted that pick off....:-/

every pitcher is going to make mistakes but rivera is head and shoulders above smith.

[rcrook]

i wish he never attempted that pick off....:-/

every pitcher is going to make mistakes but rivera is head and shoulders above smith.

rivera is better than smith but smith still deserves hall of fame...rivera is the best closer ever

[thejetstolehome]

rivera is better than smith but smith still deserves hall of fame...rivera is the best closer ever

right--if it were up to me, smith'd prbly be in. but i don't have a HOF vote.

[xearlynovemberx]

Lol Mike and the Mad Dog are such retards.

Please tell me you didnt just figure this out dude

[odelay]

Manny Ramirez: Sure, he's an RBI monster, but I don't want him anywhere near my team. He's moody, he never plays hurt. He's a terrible base runner. You've basically got to coerce him to play left field. He's a manager killer. And he makes a billion dollars. You can keep him.




Don't forget his stellar defense.

[thejetstolehome]

Don't forget his stellar defense.

he actually gets a lot of assists.

but then again, so would i with that short of a left field.

[Doug]

he actually gets a lot of assists.

but then again, so would i with that short of a left field.

no you wouldn't

[mikeford]

JIM RICE



x

[bigmike]

Don't forget his stellar defense.
Yeah his stellar defense that is far outweighed by the fact that he puts up 40HRs and 140 RBIs EVERY year, basically.

[catchmealone]

Yeah, I think I'll take the moodiness if he's putting up OPSs over 1.000.

as far as RH hitters go, it's

1. Pujols
2. Manny
3. ARod
4. Vlad

to me

Only because Bellhorn is a switch hitter....

[ThatGuy]

anyone who says bo jackson is overrated never saw him play before his hip injury. the guy was legendary and i will be telling my grandkids about him.

[Scott Weber]

Jason Bay. Not so much now that the Pittsburgh people finally shut the fuck up about him once he cooled down. Decent player with talent, but not the superstar/rising star that people make him out to be.

[bduke13]

Harold Baines is not overrated - at least i dont remember him to be. When i was younger and the O's were good he was always a very good hitter, not like an legendary epic best of all time hitter - but always a solid hitter.

[justinevans]

Scott Rolen
Billy Wagner

[histrionics22]

Scott Rolen
Billy Wagner

Rolen hasn't been healthy the last 2 years.

[justinevans]

Rolen hasn't been healthy the last 2 years.

cool.

[histrionics22]

Jason Bay. Not so much now that the Pittsburgh people finally shut the fuck up about him once he cooled down. Decent player with talent, but not the superstar/rising star that people make him out to be.
Without him, we lose over 100 games this year.

[mikeford]

Without him, we lose over 100 games this year.

that doesnt make him a superstar, that just makes the pirates pathetic and shitty

[Scott Weber]

that doesnt make him a superstar, that just makes the pirates pathetic and shitty
Thank you.

[histrionics22]

that doesnt make him a superstar, that just makes the pirates pathetic and shitty
Well maybe it would help Scott understand why he is so loved in Pittsburgh.

[mikeford]

love him all you want but be objective

i love bellhorn but he aint a superstar.

[Scott Weber]

Well maybe it would help Scott understand why he is so loved in Pittsburgh.
I don't give a shit why he's so loved, the fact that he IS so loved and praised only contributes MORE to the fact that he's overrated. jesus. you just don't get it.

[histrionics22]

I don't give a shit why he's so loved, the fact that he IS so loved and praised only contributes MORE to the fact that he's overrated. jesus. you just don't get it.
Maybe you need to calm down. The city of Pittsburgh has a way of latching onto their stars. Anyone who hits over 30 Hrs and has over 100 RBIs deserves to be praised.

[Scott Weber]

Maybe you need to calm down. The city of Pittsburgh has a way of latching onto their stars. Anyone who hits over 30 Hrs and has over 100 RBIs deserves to be praised.
guess we better start praising tim salmon, tino martinez, and vernon wells like superstars instead of the solid players they were/are. or the approximately 1,000 other players who have gotten 30 and 100.

[ThatGuy]

guess we better start praising tim salmon, tino martinez, and vernon wells like superstars instead of the solid players they were/are. or the approximately 1,000 other players who have gotten 30 and 100.

yeah but those teams didn't suck nearly bad as the pirates did this year.

i'm not saying jason bay is anything special...i just don't think you can compare him to those three guys who were surrounded with decent talent

[histrionics22]

yeah but those teams didn't suck nearly bad as the pirates did this year.

i'm not saying jason bay is anything special...i just don't think you can compare him to those three guys who were surrounded with decent talent
Seriously. I wasn't trying to get into this argument again but Soctt keeps pushing it like he's going to convince me otherwise. The guy was hitting behind Freddy Sanchez all year. Who was hitting behind Bay? Burnitz? Joe Randa? Ryan Doumit? He was by himself with no protection and still put up great numbers. He deserves credit.

[mikeford]

hes got ronnie paulino you fuckin noob.

[Doug]

guess we better start praising tim salmon, tino martinez, and vernon wells like superstars instead of the solid players they were/are. or the approximately 1,000 other players who have gotten 30 and 100.

if jason bay can keep putting up 30 100 i'd call him a superstar. same with vernon wells. 30 100 for many years in a row is real impressive. look at manny.

[Scott Weber]

yeah but those teams didn't suck nearly bad as the pirates did this year.

i'm not saying jason bay is anything special...i just don't think you can compare him to those three guys who were surrounded with decent talent
Fine.



How about Richie Sexson doing it on a 68-94 Brewers team?

Aubrey Huff on a 63-99 Devil Rays team?

tim salmon did it when the angels were 72-90.

Vinny Castilla did it when he Rockies were 73-91 and 72-90.

Aramis Ramirez on that awful 62-100 Pirates team...

Jeremy Burnitz on a 68-94 brewers team...

Jeff King did it, for God's sake.

There's plenty more where that came from.


Jason Bay is nothing special and just because he had a decent year on a shitty team doesn't mean jack.

[justinevans]

Without him, we lose over 100 games this year.

oh because losing 95 with him is MUCH BETTER?

[youkwalks]

Yeah his stellar defense that is far outweighed by the fact that he puts up 40HRs and 140 RBIs EVERY year, basically.
That may not be true. I've already posted an article a while back that claims after offensive/defensive/salary is taken in to account, Manny is about +2 wins. This is coming from the same guy (who works for the Cardinals) that said the Red Sox would win 86 games this year.

Ken Griffey Jr. has a great bat, but his defensive is so bad it outweighs his offensive contributions sometimes. It doesn't help him that he is a CF.

I read some study a guy did on SoSH where Manny actually played better defense in Fenway than away ballparks.

[mikeford]

of course he did. he gets all his assists at fenway.

[histrionics22]

Fine.



How about Richie Sexson doing it on a 68-94 Brewers team?

Aubrey Huff on a 63-99 Devil Rays team?

tim salmon did it when the angels were 72-90.

Vinny Castilla did it when he Rockies were 73-91 and 72-90.

Aramis Ramirez on that awful 62-100 Pirates team...

Jeremy Burnitz on a 68-94 brewers team...

Jeff King did it, for God's sake.

There's plenty more where that came from.


Jason Bay is nothing special and just because he had a decent year on a shitty team doesn't mean jack.
A lot of these players have has a few good years, one or two great ones. Jay Bay's last two have been great and his rookie season was very good. It's not like he's on the tail end of his career. There's nothing to suggest we won't be able to keep doing this for years.

[histrionics22]

oh because losing 95 with him is MUCH BETTER?

Winning record in the 2nd half of the season. If we weren't 30-60 at the All-Star break we could have been in the wild card hunt.

[youkwalks]

of course he did. he gets all his assists at fenway.
better range

[Scott Weber]

A lot of these players have has a few good years, one or two great ones. Jay Bay's last two have been great and his rookie season was very good. It's not like he's on the tail end of his career. There's nothing to suggest we won't be able to keep doing this for years.

Jason Bay is 28, people seem to forget that he's not a super young star at ALL.

If you think batting .289 with 35 hrs and 109 RBIs is great, then you're just...wow. Let's not forget his 156 strikeouts either...5th in the NL. Somebody call Vinny Castilla and tell him he's a future hall of famer with like 7 "great" seasons. Somebody call Manny and tell him he's a GOD. ...Take the blinders off. That's certainly good, but it's people that you that make Jbay overrated. That is NOT great. Period. Throw the shitty team argument out the window, because that doesn't really affect average and HRs. GREAT seasons are .330, 40HR years. Batting under or near .300 and hitting 30 HRs doesn't mean great, it means good.

[mikeford]

Manny is a God.

[histrionics22]

Jason Bay is 28, people seem to forget that he's not a super young star at ALL.

If you think batting .289 with 35 hrs and 109 RBIs is great, then you're just...wow. Let's not forget his 156 strikeouts either...5th in the NL. Somebody call Vinny Castilla and tell him he's a future hall of famer with like 7 "great" seasons. Somebody call Manny and tell him he's a GOD. ...Take the blinders off. That's certainly good, but it's people that you that make Jbay overrated. That is NOT great. Period. Throw the shitty team argument out the window, because that doesn't really affect average and HRs. GREAT seasons are .330, 40HR years. Batting under or near .300 and hitting 30 HRs doesn't mean great, it means good.

How many had a great season this year then? 4 or 5? How does the shitty team not effect his average or home runs? No one hitting behind him means he sees bad pitches? Do you not understand this concept? I'm well aware to the fact that Bay is 28. Ryan Howard is almost the same age. That doesn't mean they won't be able to keep up the pace they are at for many years. His obp was .396 this year. It also appears that you also dont understand Manny will go down as one of the best right handed hitters in the history of MLB.

Also, it's annoying that you use the phrase "people like me". You're the one calling him out not giving him the credit he deserves. I never claimed him to be the savior.

[Scott Weber]

How many had a great season this year then? 4 or 5? How does the shitty team not effect his average or home runs? No one hitting behind him means he sees bad pitches? Do you not understand this concept? I'm well aware to the fact that Bay is 28. Ryan Howard is almost the same age. That doesn't mean they won't be able to keep up the pace they are at for many years. His obp was .396 this year. It also appears that you also dont understand Manny will go down as one of the best right handed hitters in the history of MLB.

Also, it's annoying that you use the phrase "people like me". You're the one calling him out not giving him the credit he deserves. I never claimed him to be the savior.
I said Manny was a God because if you're going to call a good player like Jason Bay great, then a great player like Manny must be a God because he's so much better than Bay. Are you so thick that you didn't get that? And yes, the word "great" means that not every player who gets 30/100 deserves that tag. Great should be reserved for the cream of the crop, and Bay's not there...yet. Bay may have a great, bright future. But Pittsburgh fans think he's there already, which is asinine.

And yes, Manny is a God.

[justinevans]

Winning record in the 2nd half of the season. If we weren't 30-60 at the All-Star break we could have been in the wild card hunt.

still lost 95 games with him...i don't care when you won or lost them.

See there is this thing called a full season...and generally you have to do well the entire year to make the playoffs....generally.

[Split2nd]

If Wells continues to play like he played this year, once he leaves Toronto, he should become a "star."

Strikeouts are such a retarded thing to be evaluating a player... they've never proven at all to be more detrimental than any other out, I don't know why you'd include that in rating his season.

btw

NL OPS Leaders

Puljolls (just for you mikeford) 1.102
Howard 1.084
Berkman 1.041
Cabrera .998
Beltran .982
Holliday .973
Atkins .965
Johnson .948
Bay .928

Other notables
Soriano .911
Delgado .909
Utley .906

Bay didn't do as well as he could've this year, but he still had an excellent year.

p.s. protection is a myth.

[justinevans]

If Wells continues to play like he played this year, once he leaves Toronto, he should become a "star."

Strikeouts are such a retarded thing to be evaluating a player... they've never proven at all to be more detrimental than any other out, I don't know why you'd include that in rating his season.

btw

NL OPS Leaders

Puljolls (just for you mikeford) 1.102
Howard 1.084
Berkman 1.041
Cabrera .998
Beltran .982
Holliday .973
Atkins .965
Johnson .948
Bay .928

Other notables
Soriano .911
Delgado .909
Utley .906

Bay didn't do as well as he could've this year, but he still had an excellent year.

how are strikeouts not detrimental? if you don't put the ball in play alot of the time it is pathetic...If men are on base.

[Split2nd]

how are strikeouts not detrimental? if you don't put the ball in play alot of the time it is pathetic...If men are on base.
Right, the actual effects of strikeouts vs. groundouts (hellloo double play!), or moving the runner over are minimal to non-existent. there's never been any proof whatsoever that ks are any worse.

[justinevans]

Right, the actual effects of strikeouts vs. groundouts (hellloo double play!), or moving the runner over are minimal to non-existent. there's never been any proof whatsoever that ks are any worse.

But when you put the ball in play you have a better chance of getting on...

Striking out is worse than putting the ball in play...however an out is an out (your point of view)

[Scott Weber]

Right, the actual effects of strikeouts vs. groundouts (hellloo double play!), or moving the runner over are minimal to non-existent. there's never been any proof whatsoever that ks are any worse.
um, yeah...spilt2nd, are you kidding me? that's complete bullshit. and being 8th in ops or whatever in a LEAGUE does not make you a great player...it makes you a good one.

[Talib Scottie]

Moving the runner over is waaaaaay better than a strikeout.

0 outs, player grounds out, the person on second moves over to third base.

Sacrifice fly, sacrifice bunt, pass ball, a soft ground out...

all of these things would then result in an RBI. With a strikeout, the runner is still on second base.

[Scott Weber]

i can't believe somebody is actually arguing that striking out is no worse than putting the ball in play.

[histrionics22]

I said Manny was a God because if you're going to call a good player like Jason Bay great, then a great player like Manny must be a God because he's so much better than Bay. Are you so thick that you didn't get that? And yes, the word "great" means that not every player who gets 30/100 deserves that tag. Great should be reserved for the cream of the crop, and Bay's not there...yet. Bay may have a great, bright future. But Pittsburgh fans think he's there already, which is asinine.

And yes, Manny is a God.
If Bay continues doing what he's been doing the last few years he will be a superstar. It's the same reason Atkins isn't a superstar yet. If they continue with how they've been doing, then they will be superstars.

[Talib Scottie]

i can't believe somebody is actually arguing that striking out is no worse than putting the ball in play.

The only way the argument is actually close to being right is if there are two outs, and I still say it's better to work the defense.

[Scott Weber]

If Bay continues doing what he's been doing the last few years he will be a superstar. It's the same reason Atkins isn't a superstar yet. If they continue with how they've been doing, then they will be superstars.
But he's not a star yet and he hasn't proved shit, so everyone needs to shut the fuck up about him.

[justinevans]

But he's not a star yet and he hasn't proved shit, so everyone needs to shut the fuck up about him.

is Ryan Howard a star? =)

[histrionics22]

But he's not a star yet and he hasn't proved shit, so everyone needs to shut the fuck up about him.
No one outside of Pittsburgh talks about him so I really dont understand all of this overrated stuff.

[bigmike]

guess we better start praising tim salmon, tino martinez, and vernon wells like superstars instead of the solid players they were/are. or the approximately 1,000 other players who have gotten 30 and 100.
Well, I wouldn't put Vernon Wells in this group because, to me, he's a top 3 CF in the major leagues right now.

[Scott Weber]

is Ryan Howard a star? =)
when you hit 58 homers, you've proved yourself period.

[justinevans]

when you hit 58 homers, you've proved yourself period.

=) and over .300 with 149 rbis =)

[rcrook]

when you hit 58 homers, you've proved yourself period.

yeah but if he continues this home run tear within the next years he'll be a guaranteed star...remember brady anderson hit 50 hrs 110 rbis and .297 batting average one year

[justinevans]

yeah but if he continues this home run tear within the next years he'll be a guaranteed star...remember brady anderson hit 50 hrs 110 rbis and .297 batting average one year

well ryan howard hit 22 in in half a season his rookie year.

The guy can flat out hit. Don't compare him to Brady Anderson.

[Scott Weber]

Well, I wouldn't put Vernon Wells in this group because, to me, he's a top 3 CF in the major leagues right now.
we're WAY past that. those were just off the top of my head anyways. i posted a ton of other ones after that.

[Scott Weber]

yeah but if he continues this home run tear within the next years he'll be a guaranteed star...remember brady anderson hit 50 hrs 110 rbis and .297 batting average one year
and Brady's season came out of nowhere in the middle of a mediocre career...it was pretty clear that it was a fluke and he was juiced.

[justinevans]

ryan howard holds the record for the most homeruns in his first 1,000 at bats.

82 in 932.

[bigmike]

we're WAY past that. those were just off the top of my head anyways. i posted a ton of other ones after that.
I know we're passed that. I was stating my opinion.

[Split2nd]

um, yeah...spilt2nd, are you kidding me? that's complete bullshit. and being 8th in ops or whatever in a LEAGUE does not make you a great player...it makes you a good one.

I'm not arguing for Bay being great or a star or anything, but he had a pretty damn good year. I was just throwing those stats out for reference.

And I'd love to see some evidence as to how a strikeout is worse than a groundout, or a pop up to the infield. Yeah, that's great, it's so horrible when that runner doesn't move over to 3rd base, but for everytime a K ends that, there's 50 times where either a) that groundout turns into a double play which is THE WORST possible thing that can happen--taking baserunners away and producing outs is, obviously, the absolute worst thing when calculating potential runs OR b) that potential groundout doesn't even move the runner over anyways.

basically, the few times that a K is harmful by not moving the runner over, the potential loss of getting that runner over to 3rd is MUCH less than the numerous times that groundout turns into a double play.

Not getting a runner over to 3rd/sac fly <<<<< double play in terms of being detrimental to scoring. If a guy strikes out and doesn't get a runner over to 3rd, the guy is still on base for the next hitter to potentially knock him in. If a guy grounds into a double play, no one is on base.

again, there's no proof whatsoever of strikeouts being more detrimental to scoring than any other out, and "that's complete bullshit" doesn't count.

[histrionics22]

still lost 95 games with him...i don't care when you won or lost them.

See there is this thing called a full season...and generally you have to do well the entire year to make the playoffs....generally.
Hey no shit. If your Phillies didn't suck in the first half they would have been in the playoffs. You dont need to tell me whats wrong with my team, I'm well aware.

[justinevans]

I'm not arguing for Bay being great or a star or anything, but he had a pretty damn good year. I was just throwing those stats out for reference.

And I'd love to see some evidence as to how a strikeout is worse than a groundout, or a pop up to the infield. Yeah, that's great, it's so horrible when that runner doesn't move over to 3rd base, but for everytime a K ends that, there's 50 times where either a) that groundout turns into a double play which is THE WORST possible thing that can happen--taking baserunners away and producing outs is, obviously, the absolute worst thing when calculating potential runs OR b) that potential groundout doesn't even move the runner over anyways.

basically, the few times that a K is harmful by not moving the runner over, the potential loss of getting that runner over to 3rd is MUCH less than the numerous times that groundout turns into a double play.

Not getting a runner over to 3rd/sac fly <<<<< double play in terms of being detrimental to scoring. If a guy strikes out and doesn't get a runner over to 3rd, the guy is still on base for the next hitter to potentially knock him in. If a guy grounds into a double play, no one is on base.

again, there's no proof whatsoever of strikeouts being more detrimental to scoring than any other out, and "that's complete bullshit" doesn't count.

okay that is in possible double play situations...man on first....what about when it is 2nd and 3rd, man on 3rd, no one on? Or just let alone 2 outs. Putting the ball in play is better because there is a chance for human error in the infield than the catcher dropping the ball and having to throw to first.

[justinevans]

Hey no shit. If your Phillies didn't suck in the first half they would have been in the playoffs. You dont need to tell me whats wrong with my team, I'm well aware.

The Phillies had the 4th best record in the NL, they missed out because of the playoff format.

[histrionics22]

The Phillies had the 4th best record in the NL, they missed out because of the playoff format.
That's great. I still don't see the point in posting that the Pirates sucked. Everyone knows that.

And once again, if your Phillies played better in the first half, they would have been in a better position to make a move later in the season rather than trying to overcome a 10 game deficit. Divisions aren't won in April-June, but they are lost.

[justinevans]

That's great. I still don't see the point in posting that the Pirates sucked. Everyone knows that.

And once again, if your Phillies played better in the first half, they would have been in a better position to make a move later in the season rather than trying to overcome a 10 game deficit. Divisions aren't won in April-June, but they are lost.

The Phillies had one bad month June. One really bad month. They never had a 10 game defecit in the wildcard.

[Talib Scottie]

I'm not arguing for Bay being great or a star or anything, but he had a pretty damn good year. I was just throwing those stats out for reference.

And I'd love to see some evidence as to how a strikeout is worse than a groundout, or a pop up to the infield. Yeah, that's great, it's so horrible when that runner doesn't move over to 3rd base, but for everytime a K ends that, there's 50 times where either a) that groundout turns into a double play which is THE WORST possible thing that can happen--taking baserunners away and producing outs is, obviously, the absolute worst thing when calculating potential runs OR b) that potential groundout doesn't even move the runner over anyways.

basically, the few times that a K is harmful by not moving the runner over, the potential loss of getting that runner over to 3rd is MUCH less than the numerous times that groundout turns into a double play.

Not getting a runner over to 3rd/sac fly <<<<< double play in terms of being detrimental to scoring. If a guy strikes out and doesn't get a runner over to 3rd, the guy is still on base for the next hitter to potentially knock him in. If a guy grounds into a double play, no one is on base.

again, there's no proof whatsoever of strikeouts being more detrimental to scoring than any other out, and "that's complete bullshit" doesn't count.
By your logic, your team is safer when a horrible hitting pitcher is up at bat than a traditional leadoff man.

[Split2nd]

okay that is in possible double play situations...man on first....what about when it is 2nd and 3rd, man on 3rd, no one on? Or just let alone 2 outs. Putting the ball in play is better because there is a chance for human error in the infield than the catcher dropping the ball and having to throw to first.

i'm assuming you meant no one out, and in that situation, if the guy were to strikeout, there would still only be one out, two more opportunities for guys behind him to knock those two runners in. With two outs, what difference would it make how he got out?

Again, like I said, the potential benefits of just putting the ball in play all the time doesn't overcome the potential losses from all the double plays and eliminating of baserunners which is HUGE

[Scott Weber]

okay that is in possible double play situations...man on first....what about when it is 2nd and 3rd, man on 3rd, no one on? Or just let alone 2 outs. Putting the ball in play is better because there is a chance for human error in the infield than the catcher dropping the ball and having to throw to first.
yeah. in mere double play situations a strikeout could be "better", but the bottom line is that putting the ball into play has a chance of a hit, while not hitting the ball at all is a 100% guaranteed out. You play to win.

[Scott Weber]

this is honestly the worst argument i've ever heard. good points are being made, but the premise is still ridiculous.

[justinevans]

yeah. in mere double play situations a strikeout could be "better", but the bottom line is that putting the ball into play has a chance of a hit, while not hitting the ball at all is a 100% guaranteed out. You play to win.

like everytime David Bell came up with a runner on first...I prayed for just a strike out.

[justinevans]

i'm assuming you meant no one out, and in that situation, if the guy were to strikeout, there would still only be one out, two more opportunities for guys behind him to knock those two runners in. With two outs, what difference would it make how he got out?

Again, like I said, the potential benefits of just putting the ball in play all the time doesn't overcome the potential losses from all the double plays and eliminating of baserunners which is HUGE

We're not talking about when the out is made...Putting the ball in play has a better chance for defensive failure than a strike out.

The only time a coach ever told me it was okay to strike is the games where I pitched. Little League to College.

[Scott Weber]

like everytime David Bell came up with a runner on first...I prayed for just a strike out.
hahahaha I can relate to that, we had him in Seattle.

[mikeford]

the beauty of bellhorn.

you were either getting a basehit, a walk or a K.

no doubleplays.

[justinevans]

the beauty of bellhorn.

you were either getting a basehit, a walk or a K.

no doubleplays.

The beauty of david bell.

you were either getting a double play or a k.

[mikeford]

trashcan full of rocks with a glove tapped to it > david bell

[justinevans]

trashcan full of rocks with a glove tapped to it > david bell

defensively, david bell wasn't that bad...though he'd somehow fuck up the easy play and make a ridiculous play in the same game.

[Scott Weber]

trashcan full of rocks with a glove tapped to it > david bell
I lol'd

[Split2nd]

yeah. in mere double play situations a strikeout could be "better", but the bottom line is that putting the ball into play has a chance of a hit, while not hitting the ball at all is a 100% guaranteed out. You play to win.

"Mere" double play situations? The situation of a guy on first is much more likely than a guy on 2nd, or 3rd with no or one out, simply based on the number of BB, Singles as opposed to doubles, triples, and SB.

When there's no one on base, putting the ball in play isn't all that much better than striking out. There's a chance--but it's a very small chance that the person has a chance of getting on base. Then enters the fact that by maybe taking the pitch, the person has a better chance of drawing a walk instead of swinging at a crappy pitch that he grounds weakly, MAYBE getting the 3rd baseman to bobble it.

Again, like I said, show me some kind of evidence that shows the harm of a strikeout outweighs that of a groundout or pop up. A study, a report, or anything; there's never been any evidence to show that a K is worse.


this is honestly the worst argument i've ever heard. good points are being made, but the premise is still ridiculous.

what the fuck is this supposed to mean? I fail to see how "you play to win" is a good argument. thanks for the lesson, but I'm not Pete Rose.

We're not talking about when the out is made...Putting the ball in play has a better chance for defensive failure than a strike out.

man, arguing with you is so frustrating. you're not even responding to the points I made, you're making points that aren't relevant to what we were just discussing.

Obviously putting the ball in play has a better chance for defensive failure, but double plays happen more than a defensive failure, and even when that defensive failure does happen, it's very rare, meaning the chances that it does happen would barely raise that player's worth by putting it in play. The fact that those groundballs could turn into a double play when a guy is on first far outweighs the rare chance that an error occurs on a weak groundball.

[justinevans]

"Mere" double play situations? The situation of a guy on first is much more likely than a guy on 2nd, or 3rd with no or one out, simply based on the number of BB, Singles as opposed to doubles, triples, and SB.

When there's no one on base, putting the ball in play isn't all that much better than striking out. There's a chance--but it's a very small chance that the person has a chance of getting on base. Then enters the fact that by maybe taking the pitch, the person has a better chance of drawing a walk instead of swinging at a crappy pitch that he grounds weakly, MAYBE getting the 3rd baseman to bobble it.

Again, like I said, show me some kind of evidence that shows the harm of a strikeout outweighs that of a groundout or pop up. A study, a report, or anything; there's never been any evidence to show that a K is worse.




what the fuck is this supposed to mean? I fail to see how "you play to win" is a good argument. thanks for the lesson, but I'm not Pete Rose.



man, arguing with you is so frustrating. you're not even responding to the points I made, you're making points that aren't relevant to what we were just discussing.

Obviously putting the ball in play has a better chance for defensive failure, but double plays happen more than a defensive failure, and even when that defensive failure does happen, it's very rare, meaning the chances that it does happen would barely raise that player's worth by putting it in play. The fact that those groundballs could turn into a double play when a guy is on first far outweighs the rare chance that an error occurs on a weak groundball.

No, strikeouts are only good in certain circumstances if the player is going to make an out.
But a man on 2nd with no outs... a bunt, a groundball to the opposite field, a fly ball to right can move the guy over to 3rd. A strike out can't.

It all comes down to situations.

[Split2nd]

No, strikeouts are only good in certain circumstances if the player is going to make an out.
But a man on 2nd with no outs... a bunt, a groundball to the opposite field, a fly ball to right can move the guy over to 3rd. A strike out can't.

It all comes down to situations.
Well, we're not judging a player by situations, we're judging him as a whole. And how do you judge what he's sacrificing by trying to do that, instead of simply swinging away? A single, XBH, without making an out?

And why can't I say "well putting the ball in play is only good in certain situations, if the player is going to make an out."

[justinevans]

Much like geologic time tables, baseball history is separated into eras, each with its own defining characteristics.

We are 10 years into the current baseball era, which started in 1994 as MLB expanded to six divisions and baseballs began flying out of the park at about the same rate that the Paris Hilton video has been downloaded recently.

Along with that explosion of power hitting came a lot of strikeouts. Lots and lots of strikeouts. Whiffs became as fashionable as hip-huggers and intentionally sloppy hair. So now we have an annual race to see who can break Bobby Bonds' single-season strikeout record first, led by such carefree sluggers as Jose Hernandez and Preston Wilson.

And the downside is ... what, exactly? Has anybody put a finger on why striking out was seen as such an ignoble act for all those eras of baseball history? Why was Joe DiMaggio so admired for compiling nearly as many home runs (361) as whiffs (369) during his career?

If you take a look at it from a team-wide perspective, then it becomes clear that the strikeout is still worthy of the shame it once held. The current playoff format began in 1994, but the strike wiped out the postseason so we have to start with 1995. Since that season, no pennant-winning team has ranked higher than fifth in its league in strikeouts. But that is actually an aberration, since most pennant winners rank much lower than that.

Here are the past nine champions in each league, along with their league rank in strikeouts that season:

Pennant Winners, 1995-2003
Year Team NL Rank Team AL Rank
2003 Marlins 14 Yankees 5
2002 Giants 14 Angels 14
2001 Diamondbacks 12 Yankees 7
2000 Mets 10 Yankees 9
1999 Braves 14 Yankees 9
1998 Padres 8 Yankees 10
1997 Marlins 10 Indians 10
1996 Braves 12 Yankees 13
1995 Braves 9 Indians 14




Of the 36 AL playoff teams since 1995, only eight ranked in the top 5 in strikeouts. Fourteen ranked in the bottom five.

In the NL, 23 of the 36 playoff teams ranked in the lower half of the league in K's. The league champion with the highest ranking in K's was San Diego in 1998 (eighth out of 16 teams). The 1995 Braves ranked ninth out of 14 teams.

In a way, it's not that surprising, really. After all, good teams have good hitters, and good hitters don't strike out that much. But it is worth bringing up since so much of the hubbub in baseball recently has been about the importance of on-base percentage. On-base percentage is a critical stat because it shows how often a player does not make an out. If you have a lineup of players who don't make outs very often, you are going to score a ton of runs. There is no arguing with that.

But how a team makes its outs can be an important statistic, too. If a club is striking out a high rate, then it is not getting anything productive from those outs. Think back to this postseason, when a handful of games -- Game 5 of Red Sox-A's and Game 4 of Yankees-Marlins come to mind right off the bat -- came down to somebody having to put a ball in play. They didn't have to get a hit or a home run or even a walk. They just had to put the bat on the ball and hope it went to the right place.

This isn't to say you have to play smallball and lay down meek little bunts all over the place. But it is to say that putting the ball in play, whether its a fly out or a grounder to first, in most cases is better than a whiff. (Unless you hit into a double play, of course. That is the one positive thing about a strikeout.) And this isn't to say that low strikeout rates are the only reasons these teams won pennants. Pitching usually has a lot to do with that. But it is a common factor among these championship ballclubs.

Filling your team with strikeout artists -- like the Brewers and Reds have been doing the past few years -- is like deciding to eat fast food every day. You're gonna load up on empty calories.

With the massive amounts of activity set to happen in the Hot Stove League, many general managers will have a chance to change the basic composition of their lineups. Recent history shows it would behoove them to try to minimize strikeouts wherever they can.

[bigmike]

2006:
Detroit Tigers: 1133 Ks, 2nd most in the AL.
2005:
Chicago White Sox: 1002, 6th most in the AL.
2004:
Boston Red Sox: 1189, #1, the most, in the AL.
St. Louis Cardinals: 1085, 8th most in the NL.

So that 5th most by the Yankees in 2003, isn't much of an "aberration" like the author of this says.

[Split2nd]

That didn't state any new information, all it stated was the author's opinion, and listed some teams, which bigmike just pointed out wasn't even accurate really, and a few situations in which it would've helped not to K.

plus most crappy hitters tend to strike out a lot because of poor contact rates, so offenses filled with crappy hitters will likely be near the bottom in offensive categories and near the top in strikeouts.

but we're not talking about contact rates and strike zone judgment; we're saying given that x player has x hr, obp, slg, etc., why would his strikeouts be detrimental when evaluating him?

[thejetstolehome]

strikeouts are bad. but given certain circumstances, they can be "acceptable."

/argument.

[ThatGuy]

what jet said. now let's get back to talking about who's overrated

and how bo jackson isn't

[histrionics22]

The Phillies had one bad month June. One really bad month. They never had a 10 game defecit in the wildcard.

Hence why I said divisions. Its so frustrating responding to you. You just read what you want to read.

[Scott Weber]

what jet said. now let's get back to talking about who's overrated

and how bo jackson isn't
yeah, a career .250 hitter isn't overrated at all

/sarcasm.

[ThatGuy]

yeah, a career .250 hitter isn't overrated at all

/sarcasm.

i'd venture a guess you never saw bo jackson play..prior to the hip injury that is

[Scott Weber]

i'd venture a guess you never saw bo jackson play..prior to the hip injury that is
Of course I saw him play, one of my favorite baseball memories is when he won the All-star game MVP award...but the guy still never lived up to the hype over his entire career.

[ThatGuy]

yeah, cause his hip got broken. to me bo jackson will be one of those guys who could have gone down as one of the top 5 most popular athletes of all time had he not suffered that hip injury. the guy was insanely talented.

that might be what makes him overrated, is that he had so much talent and it didn't get used.

but if you younger guys want to see something amazing...check you tube fore videos of bo jackson.

[justinevans]

2006:
Detroit Tigers: 1133 Ks, 2nd most in the AL.
2005:
Chicago White Sox: 1002, 6th most in the AL.
2004:
Boston Red Sox: 1189, #1, the most, in the AL.
St. Louis Cardinals: 1085, 8th most in the NL.

So that 5th most by the Yankees in 2003, isn't much of an "aberration" like the author of this says.

the article was written in 2003.

[Split2nd]

the article was written in 2003.
his point was that those stats weren't abberations. he wasn't saying that the author was wrong in not pointing out the past few years.

[justinevans]

Hence why I said divisions. Its so frustrating responding to you. You just read what you want to read.

Me? your point was that w/o Jason Bay the team would have lost 100+ games. I said with him they lost 95...no matter when they lost them.

[Scott Weber]

yeah, cause his hip got broken. to me bo jackson will be one of those guys who could have gone down as one of the top 5 most popular athletes of all time had he not suffered that hip injury. the guy was insanely talented.

that might be what makes him overrated, is that he had so much talent and it didn't get used.

but if you younger guys want to see something amazing...check you tube fore videos of bo jackson.
i hate to break it to you, but before he broke his hip, his averages were:

.207
.235
.246
.256
.272
.225


pretty mediocre, borderline subpar at times... he was popular because he was a charismatic 2-sport star. but totally overrated as a baseball player.

[justinevans]

2006:
Detroit Tigers: 1133 Ks, 2nd most in the AL.
2005:
Chicago White Sox: 1002, 6th most in the AL.
2004:
Boston Red Sox: 1189, #1, the most, in the AL.
St. Louis Cardinals: 1085, 8th most in the NL.

So that 5th most by the Yankees in 2003, isn't much of an "aberration" like the author of this says.

st. louis is 15th this year and last year houston was 13?

Either way...I understand split's point that an out is and out once the out is made. But when you put the ball in play, things can happen. And it is situtational...

But no you can't say some guy sucks because he strikes out alot...Look at Ryan Howard. They're going to happen. But when it comes to and individual team and situations in games...strike outs are sometimes worse than any other out. Putting the ball in play can do alot of things...Ask the Cubs about the Marlins and Red Sox fans.

[histrionics22]

Me? your point was that w/o Jason Bay the team would have lost 100+ games. I said with him they lost 95...no matter when they lost them.
6 games is a huge difference for one player. Plus, not everything said is supposed to be taken so literally.

[justinevans]

6 games is a huge difference for one player. Plus, not everything said is supposed to be taken so literally.

Alright well Pirates completely suck and the Phillies pitching sucks.

Those are just thing I have gotten used to.

[Split2nd]

st. louis is 15th this year and last year houston was 13?

Either way...I understand split's point that an out is and out once the out is made. But when you put the ball in play, things can happen. And it is situtational...

But no you can't say some guy sucks because he strikes out alot...Look at Ryan Howard. They're going to happen. But when it comes to and individual team and situations in games...strike outs are sometimes worse than any other out. Putting the ball in play can do alot of things...Ask the Cubs about the Marlins and Red Sox fans.
I think that sums it up quite nicely...

[bigmike]

st. louis is 15th this year and last year houston was 13?

Either way...I understand split's point that an out is and out once the out is made. But when you put the ball in play, things can happen. And it is situtational...

But no you can't say some guy sucks because he strikes out alot...Look at Ryan Howard. They're going to happen. But when it comes to and individual team and situations in games...strike outs are sometimes worse than any other out. Putting the ball in play can do alot of things...Ask the Cubs about the Marlins and Red Sox fans.
Oh, I know. I was just pointing out that since the article was written, the yankees being 5th in the AL in K's and winning the pennant is much of an aberration anymore.

[histrionics22]

Alright well Pirates completely suck and the Phillies pitching sucks.

Those are just thing I have gotten used to.
Haha. Ok deal.

[Boring Pop Song]

Rollie Fingers is overrated

[youkwalks]

i can't believe somebody is actually arguing that striking out is no worse than putting the ball in play.
well it depends who is striking out. The big power hitters will strikeout more, but the doubles and homeruns they hit will contribute to the team more. The light singles hitters are not going to strikeout as much, but they're also not going to hit you a homerun.

Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz strike out over a 100 times a year, but their the "best hitting duo in baseball."