No Logo

[heyRomanticA__x]

No Logo/Discord Records attitude? Does anyone here have this type of mindset?

[x togepi x]

i really want to start a diy label when i get out of school

and i'm going to have a bomb the music industry-esque project going when I get my new computer.

no logo was a really good book. i used some of its philosophy in my short stories for a class i took.

[heyRomanticA__x]

I haven't picked the book up yet. Your post made me remember why I started this thread.

I read something ( here, in the news forums ) about a "post-no label/discord" mindset. That most people are ok with major labels and how they operate, either that or they just don't care, they just want "good music". On the other hand,things like this go on (http://nomatterwhatyouheard.blogspot.com/mapofevilinvert.jpg). Considering this is truthful, how can people turn a blind eye and have a "post-no label/discord" mindset.

That, and I've been researching the american publishing Industry. It seems like a majority of the mainstream news/magazines/publications are coming from a few sources. That's not good. That means that the actual scope of "informative" information being published is in the hands of a few people.

I really believe that people should control more of what comes to their ears and minds; I believe that the only wait to attain control is through diy activity.

What's your take on it togepi?

[xwisebuddhax]

i have a small diy label, run with my best friend, we're working on a couple releases.

[BreakerBreaker]

I haven't picked the book up yet. Your post made me remember why I started this thread.

I read something ( here, in the news forums ) about a "post-no label/discord" mindset. That most people are ok with major labels and how they operate, either that or they just don't care, they just want "good music". On the other hand,things like this go on (http://nomatterwhatyouheard.blogspot.com/mapofevilinvert.jpg). Considering this is truthful, how can people turn a blind eye and have a "post-no label/discord" mindset.

That, and I've been researching the american publishing Industry. It seems like a majority of the mainstream news/magazines/publications are coming from a few sources. That's not good. That means that the actual scope of "informative" information being published is in the hands of a few people.

I really believe that people should control more of what comes to their ears and minds; I believe that the only wait to attain control is through diy activity.

What's your take on it togepi?

It's the same with almost every type of business. A few big companies control the market and smaller ones can't compete. This leaves the big companies the ability to do whatever the fuck they want.

[x togepi x]

What's your take on it togepi?

What you're talking about, one company taking over the industry, is a theory called media convergence that's really encouraged. When i took my first media class, they told us that the bigger your company is and the more companies it can own, the better, because you can control everything you need to control so that your production is a lot more efficient. Media, as an academic field, does recognize that there are bad aspects to media convergence, but they basically ignore them. I remember asking my teacher something like "doesn't MC stifle individual voices like indie arists/writers/musicans/whatever?". They replied with "yeah but those people can get in the mainstream media if they just play by the rules so who cares?"

It's kind of the paradox in a capitalist society. We're told that we have to look out for ourselves, that it's not the government's job to help individuals out. Yet, when individuals try to strike out on their own, they meet this corporate machine that stifles their progress. It's why i'm not a fan of that economic system.

No Logo is about rejecting corporate control of what we see and hear, but DIY isn't necessarily enough since it's basically just putting out a product, just as much as the big companies do. I always viewed DIY as a personal way to reject the system and put out art that you want, but I mean, Dischord's cds are still sitting by EMI's. They still have to compete, and they totally can, but that's not changing the fundamental problems that you pointed out.

The author points out at the end a bunch of ways people are rejecting against the system. Those are all really interesting and good, but I think she'd point out that we need new ideas instead of just a new mode of production. We need to change that idea that people don't care how they get what they want, just that they get it.

[x togepi x]

I wish more people took part in this thread. It's probably one of the few decent threads to come out this week.

of course, it's actually about the politics of the scene, so nobody cares.

[heyRomanticA__x]

What you're talking about, one company taking over the industry, is a theory called media convergence that's really encouraged. When i took my first media class, they told us that the bigger your company is and the more companies it can own, the better, because you can control everything you need to control so that your production is a lot more efficient. Media, as an academic field, does recognize that there are bad aspects to media convergence, but they basically ignore them. I remember asking my teacher something like "doesn't MC stifle individual voices like indie arists/writers/musicans/whatever?". They replied with "yeah but those people can get in the mainstream media if they just play by the rules so who cares?"

It's kind of the paradox in a capitalist society. We're told that we have to look out for ourselves, that it's not the government's job to help individuals out. Yet, when individuals try to strike out on their own, they meet this corporate machine that stifles their progress. It's why i'm not a fan of that economic system.

No Logo is about rejecting corporate control of what we see and hear, but DIY isn't necessarily enough since it's basically just putting out a product, just as much as the big companies do. I always viewed DIY as a personal way to reject the system and put out art that you want, but I mean, Dischord's cds are still sitting by EMI's. They still have to compete, and they totally can, but that's not changing the fundamental problems that you pointed out.

The author points out at the end a bunch of ways people are rejecting against the system. Those are all really interesting and good, but I think she'd point out that we need new ideas instead of just a new mode of production. We need to change that idea that people don't care how they get what they want, just that they get it.

I believe I've read about Media Convergence before. I think it is really unfair, because who says that mainstream media will always play by the rules? It seems to me that if they even have rules, they break them all the time. It appears that our economic system favors the individual, but in practice favors the corporation. Sort of like Walmart moving in and smashing mom and pop stores.

I have a question though, is the current economic system necessary? Back to my example about walmart. Sure, walmart smashes smaller stores, but are people going to benefit from Walmart more than a smaller stores? Having a small few media conglomerates over all of our print and news, is this more beneficial to us? Has this aspect of business become so ingrained in psyche of the masses that we cannot offset the balance? It always seems that societies and civilizations move in a direction like so. Or is that just because of the controlling nature and greed of man?

I agree, Discord's back catalog can compete against many other companies. But, yes true, it does not change other problems. Things like advertising and ties to other companies. Yet, with the advent of this new source of information, the Internet, surely the playing field has been leveled. I just wish more people so the pure honest effort that goes in to places like Discord Records.

It's great how people are rejecting the current system. That makes sense about DIY being personal, as everyone will have something different they are rejecting. We do need a new mode of production. There is a lot that goes on in a capitalist society, in our economic system, that just doesn't sit right with me. People aren't paid right, people are over worked, people are mistreated. The basic human rights are ignored for simply a few to prosper.

Your last sentence reminds me of my friend. She was going to warped tour last summer and wanted to know if I would go along with her. I declined and simply told her that I did not want to attend that pseudo-punk corporate sponsored event (they were being sponsored by cingular wireless). She responded back by saying "Sure Warped Tour may be a little corporate, but where else can you see all of these bands for a cheap price?". I retorted back by saying "If Himmler and Rommel came up to you and told you they would sponsor your education, would you take it?" I see the attitude that she has in a lot of other people. They don't care about upstreaming, downstreaming, that labels lie to them, they don't care about honesty. They just want good music. I wonder if they would buy a painting from Hitler..he was a good artist.

[chickendude]

i'm going to have a bomb the music industry-esque project going when I get my new computer.What do you mean?

[TheBaroness]

There is a lot that goes on in a capitalist society, in our economic system, that just doesn't sit right with me. People aren't paid right, people are over worked, people are mistreated. The basic human rights are ignored for simply a few to prosper.



I haven't read the book, but a few thoughts on this issue generally.

the reason these problems occur is because they public don't care enough to make corporations acountable - if the public rejected corporations with poor buisness practices in favour of more worker/consumer friendly organizations there would be a shift in the way big corporations conduct their business. the only reason they are unscruopulous is because they can get away with it, because the public will support them in spite of their evil. If, however, the public refused to support their evil they would be forced to adopt more ethical practices in order to maintain their profits. the trick is, how do you get people to care about such things? your average consumer is tired from a long day at work and wants to spend their leisure time with their family, not engaging in political discourse. they don't care if the wal-mart they shop at exploits foreign workers so long as they can get all the groceries they need in one place at one time for a price that won't force them to take out a second mortgage.

I personally don't believe that the government should regulate the economy AT ALL because I do not trust any kind of government/authority with that kind of power. so it is therefore left to the people to make a difference. If people really want to enact a change in the behaviour of the corporate world, they're going to have to work out a way to communicate effectivley with the average 9-to-5'er, to develop a language which truly 'speaks' to these people, to expose them to the horrors of unethical business practice in a way which is meaningful to them. Frankly, I think that too many activists get too caught up in their own circles arguing amongst themselves and so on to figure out effective ways of doing this. it seems that many activists believe the public should automatically see the world the same way they do, rather than engaging in persuasion. Moreover, a lot of activists merely view the 'average American' with contempt, rather than trying to listen to them, undertand their views, and construct an argument which is persuasive to that average person. I'm rambling now, but to summarize, I think that the only way change can occur is if the majority demand it. Activists, rather than agitating for 'revolution', a new political system, or bitching about the one we have need to be working on new ways to communicate their beliefs to the majority so that people sit up and take notice of what's going on, and enforce their points of view at the cash register. it's going to be a long process, and it needs to start now.

[the thread]

i havent read this book, though it sounds very interesting, seeing as i myself have pretty strong DIY ethics. i catch a lot of shit for this, but when i stop supporting bands because of their signing to major labels, i guess its pretty extreme. but the way i see it, is that a band putting money before their art form is a complete slap in the face to all of their fans. i dont know if what im saying goes along with any of this, but bands that are on moderately large labels that are more or less subsidaries of larger labels, i dont buy their cds, and i rarely ever end up taking an interest in them. i download all of their shit and i couldnt care at all. i realize a lot of this sounds absurd, and it probably is, but all the time i hear bands saying how they signed to a major so everyone will be able to hear their music and you can find it anywhere. well, i say fuck that. if your music has a message and what youre saying speaks loud enough, people will listen. theyll drive a couple hours to go see you play a show in a grimy basement, theyll use the internet to find your cd, for cheaper, no doubt (even with shipping) but theyll just have to wait to recieve it in the mail. i think its ridiculous that bands today feel they have to go to major labels in order just to get some airtime of feel that theyve been heard. there is possibly nothing more that bothers me than these major labels with huge power over all forms of media, controlling so many people, events, and messages that are spread around the world. i often have the feeling that so many people are being so screwed over, but dont even know it. everyone is more or less forced into a certain boundary, where if they want the music, theyll have to buy it, or risk going to prison. and ill take the later...if they want to throw my ass in jail for sharing music, so be it. ill gladly make an example out of myself, and go down swinging, just to prove how wrong this bullshit really is.

what a lame rant....

[chickendude]

i catch a lot of shit for this, but when i stop supporting bands because of their signing to major labelsHot Cross? Ewwww...

And basically, your entire post sums up my stance.

What a great rant!

[SickOfStars]

i havent read this book, though it sounds very interesting, seeing as i myself have pretty strong DIY ethics. i catch a lot of shit for this, but when i stop supporting bands because of their signing to major labels, i guess its pretty extreme. but the way i see it, is that a band putting money before their art form is a complete slap in the face to all of their fans. i dont know if what im saying goes along with any of this, but bands that are on moderately large labels that are more or less subsidaries of larger labels, i dont buy their cds, and i rarely ever end up taking an interest in them. i download all of their shit and i couldnt care at all. i realize a lot of this sounds absurd, and it probably is, but all the time i hear bands saying how they signed to a major so everyone will be able to hear their music and you can find it anywhere. well, i say fuck that. if your music has a message and what youre saying speaks loud enough, people will listen. theyll drive a couple hours to go see you play a show in a grimy basement, theyll use the internet to find your cd, for cheaper, no doubt (even with shipping) but theyll just have to wait to recieve it in the mail. i think its ridiculous that bands today feel they have to go to major labels in order just to get some airtime of feel that theyve been heard. there is possibly nothing more that bothers me than these major labels with huge power over all forms of media, controlling so many people, events, and messages that are spread around the world. i often have the feeling that so many people are being so screwed over, but dont even know it. everyone is more or less forced into a certain boundary, where if they want the music, theyll have to buy it, or risk going to prison. and ill take the later...if they want to throw my ass in jail for sharing music, so be it. ill gladly make an example out of myself, and go down swinging, just to prove how wrong this bullshit really is.

what a lame rant....


I used to fuck guys like you in prison

respectable rant, but I had to lighten things up with insult

[the thread]

I used to fuck guys like you in prison

respectable rant, but I had to lighten things up with insult

hahaha. keep up the good work.

oh, and i already have all of those releases you pm'ed me. do you have anything else youd like to share?:-p

[SickOfStars]

hahaha. keep up the good work.

oh, and i already have all of those releases you pm'ed me. do you have anything else youd like to share?:-p

you indie scavenging bitch...uhhhh let me think.


haha I have Bravo Fucking Bravo's Demo with their old singer. It's...interesting.

[the thread]

you indie scavenging bitch...uhhhh let me think.


haha I have Bravo Fucking Bravo's Demo with their old singer. It's...interesting.

well, lets just say that i spend a lot of time hunting down music. i have one bravo release, its their self titled from 2005. i dont ever remember listening to it, but i hear good things. and you said something about l'antietams demo tape? id dig that, considering theyre one of my favorite bands.

[SickOfStars]

well, lets just say that i spend a lot of time hunting down music. i have one bravo release, its their self titled from 2005. i dont ever remember listening to it, but i hear good things. and you said something about l'antietams demo tape? id dig that, considering theyre one of my favorite bands.

ok, I'll probably send those up some time tomorrow (currently marathoning a paper and other homework-y bits)

[the thread]

ok, I'll probably send those up some time tomorrow (currently marathoning a paper and other homework-y bits)


thanks a bunch!

[heyRomanticA__x]

ah, Togepi hasn't replied back.


I've read everyone's replies, now I have a question for you. How do you react when someone comes at you with a post- no label/discord attitude? Attacking your beliefs and what you stand for, in favor of major labels and the like.

[x togepi x]

i intend on replying but that requires thinking and with this week of school it's kinda hard to pull that off.

[the thread]

ah, Togepi hasn't replied back.


I've read everyone's replies, now I have a question for you. How do you react when someone comes at you with a post- no label/discord attitude? Attacking your beliefs and what you stand for, in favor of major labels and the like.

hmm, no one has ever come at me sticking up for labels, but many people agree that they are necessary and most feel indifferent towards them. most people look at me like im crazy when i tell them that about my disgust for labels, but i guess thats to be expected. all of the people who think that, though, dont really know anything about the music industry and the problems its causing, most just think i hate anything thats popular, but thats not true.

[XpunkXroutineX]

wow. this is a nice thread. love the discussion going on.

oh, and i prefer calling the Warped Tour corporate-sponsored punk rock. fits it perfectly.

[chickendude]

I think psuedo-punk is a more accurate term. Punk rock makes me think of DIY, which the Warped Tour most certainly is not. Psuedo-punk makes me think fake punk, which it more closely resembles.

[heyRomanticA__x]

i intend on replying but that requires thinking and with this week of school it's kinda hard to pull that off.

That is completely understandable, Sir. I actually have a research paper I need to get started on.

hmm, no one has ever come at me sticking up for labels, but many people agree that they are necessary and most feel indifferent towards them. most people look at me like im crazy when i tell them that about my disgust for labels, but i guess thats to be expected. all of the people who think that, though, dont really know anything about the music industry and the problems its causing, most just think i hate anything thats popular, but thats not true.

I come across people trying to argue it with me all the time, especially in the ap.net news forums. I try to tell people that there is a lot of other shit that is going on, that isn't about the music ( defense industry ), but they just shrug their shoulders. Have people become so disaffected that something like that doesn't bother them? I mean I go to Raytheon Industries website and get pissed off just looking at it! The usual response I get back is "Well there's a chance that all of our money goes to someone's dirty pockets or industry." Which is true, but does that mean that things can stay like that? I am really supposed to stop caring because that of the money I make goes to a bad industry, because I live a supposedly comfortable life? What happened to people giving a shit?


wow. this is a nice thread. love the discussion going on.

oh, and i prefer calling the Warped Tour corporate-sponsored punk rock. fits it perfectly.

I think psuedo-punk is a more accurate term. Punk rock makes me think of DIY, which the Warped Tour most certainly is not. Psuedo-punk makes me think fake punk, which it more closely resembles.

I see what you mean by calling it psuedo-punk. Too bad the rest of these kids can't see it that way. They can't see that they're getting taken advantage of buy someone who can give a care less about DIY values.

[BreakerBreaker]

I come across people trying to argue it with me all the time, especially in the ap.net news forums. I try to tell people that there is a lot of other shit that is going on, that isn't about the music ( defense industry ), but they just shrug their shoulders. Have people become so disaffected that something like that doesn't bother them? I mean I go to Raytheon Industries website and get pissed off just looking at it! The usual response I get back is "Well there's a chance that all of our money goes to someone's dirty pockets or industry." Which is true, but does that mean that things can stay like that? I am really supposed to stop caring because that of the money I make goes to a bad industry, because I live a supposedly comfortable life? What happened to people giving a shit?

Isn't Raytheon owned by AOL Time Warner? It's disgusting how these media conglomerates have so much influence in weapons industries. I think Vivendi owns Lockheed Martin.

[heyRomanticA__x]

Isn't Raytheon owned by AOL Time Warner? It's disgusting how these media conglomerates have so much influence in weapons industries. I think Vivendi owns Lockheed Martin.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure Raytheon is owned by AOL/TW. It's funny how the two biggest industries seem to be Entertainment and Defense. Drop bombs on their home land while they watch your latest blockbuster hit.

[x togepi x]

i'm still behind on school but this article (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/03/peter_jenner/) is relavent to the discussion.

[x togepi x]

bump because i plan on making a response sometime after practice tommorow and I'd like this thread to be on page one so i'm reminded

[heyRomanticA__x]

I haven't read the book, but a few thoughts on this issue generally.

the reason these problems occur is because they public don't care enough to make corporations acountable - if the public rejected corporations with poor buisness practices in favour of more worker/consumer friendly organizations there would be a shift in the way big corporations conduct their business. the only reason they are unscruopulous is because they can get away with it, because the public will support them in spite of their evil. If, however, the public refused to support their evil they would be forced to adopt more ethical practices in order to maintain their profits. the trick is, how do you get people to care about such things? your average consumer is tired from a long day at work and wants to spend their leisure time with their family, not engaging in political discourse. they don't care if the wal-mart they shop at exploits foreign workers so long as they can get all the groceries they need in one place at one time for a price that won't force them to take out a second mortgage.

I personally don't believe that the government should regulate the economy AT ALL because I do not trust any kind of government/authority with that kind of power. so it is therefore left to the people to make a difference. If people really want to enact a change in the behaviour of the corporate world, they're going to have to work out a way to communicate effectivley with the average 9-to-5'er, to develop a language which truly 'speaks' to these people, to expose them to the horrors of unethical business practice in a way which is meaningful to them. Frankly, I think that too many activists get too caught up in their own circles arguing amongst themselves and so on to figure out effective ways of doing this. it seems that many activists believe the public should automatically see the world the same way they do, rather than engaging in persuasion. Moreover, a lot of activists merely view the 'average American' with contempt, rather than trying to listen to them, undertand their views, and construct an argument which is persuasive to that average person. I'm rambling now, but to summarize, I think that the only way change can occur is if the majority demand it. Activists, rather than agitating for 'revolution', a new political system, or bitching about the one we have need to be working on new ways to communicate their beliefs to the majority so that people sit up and take notice of what's going on, and enforce their points of view at the cash register. it's going to be a long process, and it needs to start now.

Thats my question as well. How do we get the average consumer to wake up and pay attention? They're tired, their kids are tired, their grandchildren and so on and so on...People have been tired for so long that they no longer care. It's so hard to expose other people to this idea, because so many people don't care. Is it what we're saying that doesn't speak to them? I know that is something you touched upon in your response, and you're probably right. Showing the average consumer Raytheon Ind.'s web page won't do anything for them, they could careless. My whole thing is, have they been conditioned to feel this way? Growing up with tired parents who worked to survive, people get this idea that they have to work for their survival only. Not for the good of everyone else. People become conditioned to care solely for the individual, and there's nothing wrong with the individual, but it takes away from the community of being a human. It takes away from caring about what happens to other people, it takes away from trying to make the world better.

If we find a way to communicate with the average consumer...what will happen? How should we communicate with them?

I know I'm just rambling off and I probably missed the main point of writing this, eh, my head is cloudy.

[heyRomanticA__x]

i havent read this book, though it sounds very interesting, seeing as i myself have pretty strong DIY ethics. i catch a lot of shit for this, but when i stop supporting bands because of their signing to major labels, i guess its pretty extreme. but the way i see it, is that a band putting money before their art form is a complete slap in the face to all of their fans. i dont know if what im saying goes along with any of this, but bands that are on moderately large labels that are more or less subsidaries of larger labels, i dont buy their cds, and i rarely ever end up taking an interest in them. i download all of their shit and i couldnt care at all. i realize a lot of this sounds absurd, and it probably is, but all the time i hear bands saying how they signed to a major so everyone will be able to hear their music and you can find it anywhere. well, i say fuck that. if your music has a message and what youre saying speaks loud enough, people will listen. theyll drive a couple hours to go see you play a show in a grimy basement, theyll use the internet to find your cd, for cheaper, no doubt (even with shipping) but theyll just have to wait to recieve it in the mail. i think its ridiculous that bands today feel they have to go to major labels in order just to get some airtime of feel that theyve been heard. there is possibly nothing more that bothers me than these major labels with huge power over all forms of media, controlling so many people, events, and messages that are spread around the world. i often have the feeling that so many people are being so screwed over, but dont even know it. everyone is more or less forced into a certain boundary, where if they want the music, theyll have to buy it, or risk going to prison. and ill take the later...if they want to throw my ass in jail for sharing music, so be it. ill gladly make an example out of myself, and go down swinging, just to prove how wrong this bullshit really is.

what a lame rant....

Exactly, I share music like I share information. I don't think it's ok for a few companies to hog tie all the information that leaks to the masses, they get to pick and choose what gets told. Knowledge to me is freedom, I guess thats why I want to become a teacher.

[SickOfStars]

I feel terrible after reading all this and realizing that I still don't really care. I mean, I enjoy my DIY bands and I enjoy stuff that's on a label. I don't really care for big labels and their tactics, but that's why I have other stuff to balance it out. ...I do still feel like a moron though, so please, no attacking. X-)

[the thread]

Exactly, I share music like I share information. I don't think it's ok for a few companies to hog tie all the information that leaks to the masses, they get to pick and choose what gets told. Knowledge to me is freedom, I guess thats why I want to become a teacher.

myself included. im actually serious about teaching now, especially high school. like with many ideas, i think its bullshit we get a constricted view of everything, because anything outside of 6 inches in front of our faces is controversial. my past 4 yrs in college have shown me that almost everything i thought i knew coming out of high school was incorrect. not totally because of teachers, but because of restrictions placed upon them by the curriculum and the "system". i want to go and teach high school age children and make them understand theres a whole lot more shit out there than theyll learn within those 4 walls and from their parent's point of views. i feel the same about music. we get so many kids in here with the same fucking view about "emo" and its so hard to make them understand that what theyve been fed by the media is incorrect. everytime i try to tell someone about it, its faced with disgust, because im making this shit up. people are fed misinformation so often, and it seems that in our daily lives, many of us are just too tired and complacent to actually want to venture within it and find out the real story for ourselves. i want people to give a shit and fuck the "music industry" over. but most peoples lives are ruled by top 40 stations and cds at best buy...they dont want to see the whole picture, they want to bask in what they already have and whats easy to obtain.

whether its history classes in high school or commercials on tv, someone is controlling what we see and hear, and that needs to change. people need to get together to understand that theres a lot of shit their eyes and ears arent catching the first time around. they need to go back and re-evaluate.

does any of this make sense?

[heyRomanticA__x]

myself included. im actually serious about teaching now, especially high school. like with many ideas, i think its bullshit we get a constricted view of everything, because anything outside of 6 inches in front of our faces is controversial. my past 4 yrs in college have shown me that almost everything i thought i knew coming out of high school was incorrect. not totally because of teachers, but because of restrictions placed upon them by the curriculum and the "system". i want to go and teach high school age children and make them understand theres a whole lot more shit out there than theyll learn within those 4 walls and from their parent's point of views. i feel the same about music. we get so many kids in here with the same fucking view about "emo" and its so hard to make them understand that what theyve been fed by the media is incorrect. everytime i try to tell someone about it, its faced with disgust, because im making this shit up. people are fed misinformation so often, and it seems that in our daily lives, many of us are just too tired and complacent to actually want to venture within it and find out the real story for ourselves. i want people to give a shit and fuck the "music industry" over. but most peoples lives are ruled by top 40 stations and cds at best buy...they dont want to see the whole picture, they want to bask in what they already have and whats easy to obtain.

whether its history classes in high school or commercials on tv, someone is controlling what we see and hear, and that needs to change. people need to get together to understand that theres a lot of shit their eyes and ears arent catching the first time around. they need to go back and re-evaluate.

does any of this make sense?

It makes perfect sense. Especially with today being Thanksgiving and tomorrow being on of the biggest shopping days of the year. Like you said, this is just another aspect of peoples lives being ruled by top 40 stations and not digging below the surface. The holiday season is just another ploy to exploit.

People need to dig up information, but in a time where it is so easy to turn on the t.v. and see the news, or click to some news website ( cnn, msn, fox ) it's easy to become placid and docile. It's great to be connect to the rest of the world and have instant access to mainstream information, but what is this really doing to us?

[heyRomanticA__x]

I haven't read the book, but a few thoughts on this issue generally.

the reason these problems occur is because they public don't care enough to make corporations acountable - if the public rejected corporations with poor buisness practices in favour of more worker/consumer friendly organizations there would be a shift in the way big corporations conduct their business. the only reason they are unscruopulous is because they can get away with it, because the public will support them in spite of their evil. If, however, the public refused to support their evil they would be forced to adopt more ethical practices in order to maintain their profits. the trick is, how do you get people to care about such things? your average consumer is tired from a long day at work and wants to spend their leisure time with their family, not engaging in political discourse. they don't care if the wal-mart they shop at exploits foreign workers so long as they can get all the groceries they need in one place at one time for a price that won't force them to take out a second mortgage.

I personally don't believe that the government should regulate the economy AT ALL because I do not trust any kind of government/authority with that kind of power. so it is therefore left to the people to make a difference. If people really want to enact a change in the behaviour of the corporate world, they're going to have to work out a way to communicate effectivley with the average 9-to-5'er, to develop a language which truly 'speaks' to these people, to expose them to the horrors of unethical business practice in a way which is meaningful to them. Frankly, I think that too many activists get too caught up in their own circles arguing amongst themselves and so on to figure out effective ways of doing this. it seems that many activists believe the public should automatically see the world the same way they do, rather than engaging in persuasion. Moreover, a lot of activists merely view the 'average American' with contempt, rather than trying to listen to them, undertand their views, and construct an argument which is persuasive to that average person. I'm rambling now, but to summarize, I think that the only way change can occur is if the majority demand it. Activists, rather than agitating for 'revolution', a new political system, or bitching about the one we have need to be working on new ways to communicate their beliefs to the majority so that people sit up and take notice of what's going on, and enforce their points of view at the cash register. it's going to be a long process, and it needs to start now.

Thats the age old question. How do we get the rest of the world to wake up? The poor are too busy trying to survive, the middle class is trying to keep up with the jones family, and the rich..ha they're complacent with the system ( i believe i just made many generalizations ). No one cares. I feel like I am stuck in limbo. I try to reach out to people and alert them of the things discussed in this thread, but like you said, these people aren't demanding change, they're demanding survival and goods. My question is, if we change methods in order to reach the average consumer, will that water down the information?

[x togepi x]

fuck. even on my week off i'm too busy and this is like my favorite thread ever.

it's been a bad semester

[heyRomanticA__x]

fuck. even on my week off i'm too busy and this is like my favorite thread ever.

it's been a bad semester

Yeah, this thread is pretty cool. I just wish more people would get in on the discussion.
It's been a bad couple of weeks for me, I'm sick(er).

[heyRomanticA__x]

anyone heard about this movie yet?

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/electric.html

[x togepi x]

so i decided to say fuck it and trying to get caught up with school so i can make some responses to this thread. i know i'm digging up stuff from months ago, and i apologize for that, especially if I respond to someone who doesn't feel like keeping up with this (which is cool. i don't expect it).

[x togepi x]

I believe I've read about Media Convergence before. I think it is really unfair, because who says that mainstream media will always play by the rules? It seems to me that if they even have rules, they break them all the time. It appears that our economic system favors the individual, but in practice favors the corporation. Sort of like Walmart moving in and smashing mom and pop stores.

What I think you're missing is that MC is almost the media theory. From what I've read, most companies seek to control as much as they can. it makes things more efficient. there's not a lot of dissenting voices in the bigger companies for this reason. Nobody working for one of the big 4 record labels is going to come out and say "you know, we probably shouldn't own the distribution centers even though it makes us more money". We're talking about capitalism, it's not about fairness, it's about making money and that's sad, but that's how our economy works.

so to sum up my rambling, yeah it's really unfair but nobody's going to do anything about it within the companies themselves because there's no point to. as you point out later, the general public could care less how they get their music and who the money goes to really support. I've pointed out to anti-war people that money from that sweet Coldplay or Jimmy Eat World cd they just bought helps fund the arms industries which are profiting off the war but it doesn't seem to matter to them.

I have a question though, is the current economic system necessary? Back to my example about walmart. Sure, walmart smashes smaller stores, but are people going to benefit from Walmart more than a smaller stores? Having a small few media conglomerates over all of our print and news, is this more beneficial to us? Has this aspect of business become so ingrained in psyche of the masses that we cannot offset the balance? It always seems that societies and civilizations move in a direction like so. Or is that just because of the controlling nature and greed of man?

I'm going to answer you first question outright in two ways and hopefully my second answer will answer the smaller ones.

Simply put, no. we don't need the system we've propped up. we can all sit around and point out had bad it is. Even hardcore pro-free market capitalists like economists point out that John Smith's theory of capitalism has these flaws, called market failures, that just exist and can't be dealt with. Obviously, it's not perfect. But whether we need it, or not isn't the question you ought to be asking...because capitalism works. That's a given fact. We're sitting here having this conversation on our computers built by major corporations on Jason Tate's website, which we reach by paying multimillion dollar telecom companies. Your question should be "is capitalism, on the whole as it operates in our world today, a positive or a negative?"

I'm going to say it's a negative. Just go look at the third world. What do we do about it? I don't know.

Again, back to your first question. Is this system necessary?

This time, I'm going to tell you that, while talking about DIY, I think that this question is fairly irrelavant and here's why. I've never seen DIY as a way of smashing the system. I always viewed it as an alternative. The alternative is what's necessary. By having another way to do things, there's always a chance that other people will see how things can work by bypassing the major corporations. You can kind of see this trend in how the news companies have dealt with blogs. CNN is a lot different after blogging the news became big, now they interview bloggers routinely. If our alternative explodes, which is happening right now in my opinion, it's going to have an impact on what goes on.

maybe the impact will be less control in the hands of the few and more in the hands of the many. I'm not going to say "yeah that's a sure thing", because there's a lot of work to be done and we could be completely obscure forever. even if it doesn't work out, at least we'll have the alternatives to keep people like us sane. we might not be able to change the world but we can have a sanctuary (an oasis that plays PIX bands which will spring out of the desert that is mainstream mallcore inspiring Ian to quit writing songs with his girlfriend (the evens) and get him to reform fugazi (with her somehow involved).

I agree, Discord's back catalog can compete against many other companies. But, yes true, it does not change other problems. Things like advertising and ties to other companies. Yet, with the advent of this new source of information, the Internet, surely the playing field has been leveled. I just wish more people so the pure honest effort that goes in to places like Discord Records.

My point about competition was that merely having the DIY labels isn't enough. People have to want to buy them. It's sad tha they don't. i mean, Plan-It-X sells all their releases for 5 bucks a piece.

[x togepi x]

I feel terrible after reading all this and realizing that I still don't really care. I mean, I enjoy my DIY bands and I enjoy stuff that's on a label. I don't really care for big labels and their tactics, but that's why I have other stuff to balance it out. ...I do still feel like a moron though, so please, no attacking. X-)

you DO care...that's why you feel terrible. it'll creep up on you. trust me.

i'm not in the DON'T BUY MAINSTREAM MUSIC camp. I just don't pay full price for a major label's music. You can find most anything you want used if you look hard enough, and that way your money goes to an indie record store/some person on ebay instead of the major label. That would be my advice to you. Listen to whatever the hell you want, just maybe think about getting it in a different way.

[chickendude]

i'm not in the DON'T BUY MAINSTREAM MUSIC camp.For the most part, I am, although I still have a few old CDs leftover from a couple years ago that I haven't yet given to the local shop back home.

[Fuckmaxbemis]

Hell, I don't even buy music. That might come hand in hand with the fact that I don't have income.

Anyways, the RIAA has pissed me off far too much to buy anything mainstream at this point.

I remember back in the 80's, mainstream was a buzz, but things have gotten a whole lot more segregated. Indie music has a huge popularity, and I appreciate that. Knowing the American economic system, we'll find another way for the recording business to start raking in money.

[the thread]

i really only buy music directly from the bands, or ill order from places like slaveunion or 29north occasionally. i had quite a few cds, but they all were stolen a couple years back. since then, ive been hesitant to spend money on cds because im so pissed off the other ones were nicked. but bands like mayans and with horses in her eyes, i buy right from them, i mean, its 5 bucks, and i figure if they can spare all that time and energy and emotion, and they want a pissant amount of money for it, im more than willing to give it to them. i understand what theyre doing and what it means to them. i only hope that whenever i get my music out there, people will feel the same way about me.

[heyRomanticA__x]

What I think you're missing is that MC is almost the media theory. From what I've read, most companies seek to control as much as they can. it makes things more efficient. there's not a lot of dissenting voices in the bigger companies for this reason. Nobody working for one of the big 4 record labels is going to come out and say "you know, we probably shouldn't own the distribution centers even though it makes us more money". We're talking about capitalism, it's not about fairness, it's about making money and that's sad, but that's how our economy works.

so to sum up my rambling, yeah it's really unfair but nobody's going to do anything about it within the companies themselves because there's no point to. as you point out later, the general public could care less how they get their music and who the money goes to really support. I've pointed out to anti-war people that money from that sweet Coldplay or Jimmy Eat World cd they just bought helps fund the arms industries which are profiting off the war but it doesn't seem to matter to them.



I'm going to answer you first question outright in two ways and hopefully my second answer will answer the smaller ones.

Simply put, no. we don't need the system we've propped up. we can all sit around and point out had bad it is. Even hardcore pro-free market capitalists like economists point out that John Smith's theory of capitalism has these flaws, called market failures, that just exist and can't be dealt with. Obviously, it's not perfect. But whether we need it, or not isn't the question you ought to be asking...because capitalism works. That's a given fact. We're sitting here having this conversation on our computers built by major corporations on Jason Tate's website, which we reach by paying multimillion dollar telecom companies. Your question should be "is capitalism, on the whole as it operates in our world today, a positive or a negative?"

I'm going to say it's a negative. Just go look at the third world. What do we do about it? I don't know.

Again, back to your first question. Is this system necessary?

This time, I'm going to tell you that, while talking about DIY, I think that this question is fairly irrelavant and here's why. I've never seen DIY as a way of smashing the system. I always viewed it as an alternative. The alternative is what's necessary. By having another way to do things, there's always a chance that other people will see how things can work by bypassing the major corporations. You can kind of see this trend in how the news companies have dealt with blogs. CNN is a lot different after blogging the news became big, now they interview bloggers routinely. If our alternative explodes, which is happening right now in my opinion, it's going to have an impact on what goes on.

maybe the impact will be less control in the hands of the few and more in the hands of the many. I'm not going to say "yeah that's a sure thing", because there's a lot of work to be done and we could be completely obscure forever. even if it doesn't work out, at least we'll have the alternatives to keep people like us sane. we might not be able to change the world but we can have a sanctuary (an oasis that plays PIX bands which will spring out of the desert that is mainstream mallcore inspiring Ian to quit writing songs with his girlfriend (the evens) and get him to reform fugazi (with her somehow involved).



My point about competition was that merely having the DIY labels isn't enough. People have to want to buy them. It's sad tha they don't. i mean, Plan-It-X sells all their releases for 5 bucks a piece.

I see what you mean about giving people an alternative. I think this goes hand in hand with people doing what's right or doing what's easy. I think so many people choose the "do what's easy" rout, even if they don't know it. It's easier to go to a clothing store and buy clothes made in sweatshops, than it is to go home and make your own clothes. I'm not saying going home and making your own clothes is the right thing to do, I'm saying that finding an alternative is the right thing to do. Like buying clothes made from places where workers receive fair treatment and good pay. There are generations of people that don't care where their goods come from or how they people who make them are treated. I don't know how to get them to care again, except by giving them an alternative and hoping that maybe they'll turn around.

[cfear]

I have that book sitting in my dorm, but I haven't gotten around to reading it yet.

I wish I had noticed this thread earlier, I have a lot to add that I don't feel like going back and saying.

All in all: If we could somehow go from a capitalist economy to an Anarcho-Syndicate-esque system life would be pretty badass. I don't feel like typing much, but I totally could.

[heyRomanticA__x]

I have that book sitting in my dorm, but I haven't gotten around to reading it yet.

I wish I had noticed this thread earlier, I have a lot to add that I don't feel like going back and saying.

All in all: If we could somehow go from a capitalist economy to an Anarcho-Syndicate-esque system life would be pretty badass. I don't feel like typing much, but I totally could.

Ah come on, I enjoy reading what you have to say.

[Ryan Damage]

I, also, wish I had seen this thread earlier and I am going to throw in my two cents when I get some more time to type.

I want to start off by saying that I really thought this thread was going to be about the totally sweet band from Chicago with the same name. It was disappointing at first, but then it became alright.

[heyRomanticA__x]

Anyone that wants to read the book (right now) can slsk me and get it.

[Ryan Damage]

I've been meaning to pick this book up whenever I go to Borders but I always end up grabbing other stuff instead. But now I've got a much larger bag, so I won't have to be so picky.

[heyRomanticA__x]

Question: Does a band always have to "blow up"? Why do most people assume that a band has to be famous (in mainstream America)? Why do people assume that a band should have massive radio play, should be all over mtv and plastered all over the 50 states? Do people ever stop to think that maybe some bands don't want that?

[chickendude]

I'd be terrified if that ever happened to my band. Most people assume that it just allows you to reach a wider audience without any negative consequences.

[xwisebuddhax]

I'm jumping in here again, my label's site is up, free demos, to buy stuff, you have to go on downloadpunk.com, anyway our url is thisisbroken.5u.com, be prepared for pop-ups...

[heyRomanticA__x]

I'd be terrified if that ever happened to my band. Most people assume that it just allows you to reach a wider audience without any negative consequences.

Negative consequences as in becoming a trend to mainstream society?

[chickendude]

Negative consequences as in viewing your music more as a means to make money than a means to spread a message.

[the thread]

if we ever finish recording and playing shows, i hope to god no one ever gives me money for anything music related that i produced. if, by some chance, i end up with money, im donating every cent of it to cancer funds. i think its the dumbest thing in the world that people should feel obligated to pay someone just to hear the voice that they willingly spread. while its understandable to want to somehow recoup all the money spent on voicing your message (since we all know musical equipment and shit aint cheap) i still feel that it was my choice no matter what, and because of that, i shouldnt charge people a thing for my actions.

[heyRomanticA__x]

Same question as before. The "next band to get big in 07" thread inspired me to bring this up.

[chickendude]

Same question as before. The "next band to get big in 07" thread inspired me to bring this up.
Maybe people assume that if a band doesn't "go big" they'll just break up? I think the real problem is that everyone assumes that a band is a means through which to make money. The idea of a band not bothered by others downloading their music is preposterous. When someone thinks about going to a show or getting a CD they wonder how much it costs, how much money the band wants for their work. I can understand charging money to make back the cost of materials, but paying money to watch a band play? Not unless that money is being donated to something worthy.

I guess people see playing in a band as a job, an alternative to working (and sadly it often is).

[chickendude]

Bump.

[the thread]

srsly. man, i hope to get screwed over by a major label this year.

[x togepi x]

i'm bumping this thread because it was actually good.

[RyanDamage]

And once again I completely thought this thread was about the band. Oh well.

[x togepi x]

i've never heard the band still! what are they?

[AP_Punk]

Great book. I love Naomi Klein.

[x togepi x]

i wish she'd update it. it's a great book.

[RyanDamage]

I can't find any of their stuff online. Sucks. Fast hardcore from Chicago.

I hate getting home after not going to a party and realizing I'm not tired at all.

[x togepi x]

that's my entire life.

[RyanDamage]

It's less than ten blocks away, but I think I'm just going to go to bed anyway, I don't feel like embarrassing myself tonight, I've already drank too much tonight and the trend would probably continue.

Ugh.

/

resume your counter-culture talk.

[x togepi x]

yeah i seriously want to know what some of the new people think about this.

[AP_Punk]

i wish she'd update it. it's a great book.

An update would be on it would be really good.

[cfear]

This was quite the fucking bump. Whatevs.

I'm still too fucking lazy to think this shit out. Playing Marvel: Ultimate Alliance all night will do that to you.