Slow News Day = Thoughts On Christianity Editorial?

[Paul Tao]

Will Angelos, the singer of Autonym (http://www.myspace.com/autonymla), has written an editorial on "Christianity in hardcore and punk" on their MySpace blog (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=52380819&blogID=190964260&MyToken=05942fe0-0707-4167-aa7e-fb518f21f21d).

[Gleebo]

No thoughts on the topic, but instead a question. Just about how much longer is the hellogoodbye popup gonna be around? I really don't need multiple reminders each day that I actually paid money for that cd. I guess its worth something if I flip it upside down. I can then use it along with The Red Jumpsuit Apparatus and Cute Is What We Aim For cds for a nice coaster set.

[neuy]

i dont know if i agree totally with what he said. i mean yeah most of it like the kids who busted up their van thats just stupid. but like bands like underoath also say that if the kids want to talk to them about what they believe they can come and talk after the set. so really its not the bands fault if the kids dont interpuret the right way. they will talk to the kids if the kids come up and ask them about it. but me being a christian i dont go around telling people they are going to go to hell if they dont accept Jesus, but if they ask me about it i will tell them what i believe and how it has helped me in my life. i mean most of my friends are not christian and i still respect and hang out with them. im just saying not all the christian bands are irresponsible in talking about God but some of there are some that are just doing it just to get their name out there because it has become a cool thing to do. like underoath had always done that even before they were huge so you cant say they are doing it because its the cool thing. im gonna be done because i dont want to piss anyone off im just giving my opinion and i respect the band giving theirs

[CaliHGiloveunot]

haha Will's on the front news page....:)

[Tenn]

No thoughts on the topic, but instead a question. Just about how much longer is the hellogoodbye popup gonna be around? I really don't need multiple reminders each day that I actually paid money for that cd. I guess its worth something if I flip it upside down. I can then use it along with The Red Jumpsuit Apparatus and Cute Is What We Aim For cds for a nice coaster set.

get firefox, d/l a popup blocker.

[Shooter McGavin]

as a Christian, this pissed me off. Not because of the dude who wrote it isn't a Christian though. The people in the story need a swift kick in the pants. A lot of these bands now are out there brainwashing kids and the bands don't even know what they are talking about. When people begin to look to pop culture for their religious beliefs and values, we have a big problem in our society. The kids not buying non-Christian band merch and putting crap on the van is retarded. Some people need to grow up. Some of my fav bands aren't Christians and some of them are. Good music is good music and it shouldn't matter what kind of religious background the band has. If it makes you wanna tap your toe or move around, or whatever then go ahead and listen to it. That is my 2 cents on the matter.

[punklet2101]

"There is no deep examination of faith, "
"These Christian bands are converting young minds to Christianity without teaching them a single thing about the faith. "

i completely agree with that. unless, as someone has said in this thread.. that they encourage kids to come and talk to them after, and when they do, actually know what they're talking about

"Many of the opening bands tell the young kids to follow Jesus. I have seen these bands "hooking up" with obviously underage girls (But they didn't have intercourse so it's OK, right?). Perhaps this was acceptable in Jesus' time but not now here in the United States. "

yep, that's not cool.

when a band is completely genuine though i think its fine to say something onstage.

[Jason Tate]

No thoughts on the topic, but instead a question. Just about how much longer is the hellogoodbye popup gonna be around? I really don't need multiple reminders each day that I actually paid money for that cd. I guess its worth something if I flip it upside down. I can then use it along with The Red Jumpsuit Apparatus and Cute Is What We Aim For cds for a nice coaster set.
Get a pop-up blocking browser? Firefox? IE7?

[NationalProduct]

i deff think for me being a Christian, a very non judgmental Christian btw, alot of what he said strikes me as totally true and on that same note, for me, my relationship with Christ does not involve a church, nor does it involve being surrounded by Christians. In my opinion, to be Christ like, is to love all regardless of sexual preference, lifestyle choices, race, and what have you. I have a friend back home (hawaii) who is a high priest in the church of Satan. I dont judge him for his choice, he doesnt judge me for my choice but we love eachother as friends and fellow musicians. I have friends from every walk of life and friends who openly denounce Christ aka Jeffree Star. These are my friends and they are entitled to their opinions and when they ask me mine, i give it and I take the time to be open to what they believe as well. I do not lead a perfect life. I have my vices and things that hold me back from being completely "free" within myself and you know what, thats ok, because first and foremost I am a fuckin human being. Check that out, I cuss too, does that make me any less a christian, no. Not in my opinion. The point is, i am trying to grow not only as a man and an individual but as a christian as well. I will never ever judge someone, I will only listen and i think thats what too many people of religious backgrounds choose not to do, is listen. They assert what is FACT and right and wrong without implementing any understanding behind it and reinforce that with fear of going to hell. To me that is complete bullshit, and its not fair, and your cant teach love with fear. Love is taught with understanding and love to reinforce it. Anyhow, thats just my lil bit. Im off to see Brand New

Also, im editing this just to say: I am not against church, nor am I against being surrounded by other christians or people of your religious belief. I think it is good if you choose to seek that in order to build your foundation. I personally was raised as a child with the option to believe. My family was a totally fucked up family but one thing that was cool and is that my father gave us the choice in our faith. We chose. essentially, for me, it was about MY personal walk/relationship and it would less genuine if i only believed in something because my father told me to. This relates from everything to politics, to religion, to straight edge lifestyle and beyond, the choice has to be yours, and if you choose to push what you to believe to be fact to impact another persons life then shit, YOU better be accountable and knowledgeable about what your sending out into to the universe.

[Jason Tate]

Ps. I've never heard Underoath push Christianity on anyone. I've heard them say, "we do this for Jesus, just wanted you to know."

And I've seen them 5 or 6 times.

I really am getting sick of people picking on Underoath for their religion just because they're the biggest band in that scene. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of other bands that proselytize on a much larger scale and are much more upfront about it. Picking on a band for doing what they do - and just happening to be the biggest band "in the scene" doing it -- is not only unfair, it's a blatent cop out.

The author of this blog's ranting and raving only shows me that he has issues with how other people choose to live their lives, nothing more.

[NationalProduct]

Ps. I've never heard Underoath push Christianity on anyone. I've heard them say, "we do this for Jesus, just wanted you to know."

And I've seen them 5 or 6 times.

I really am getting sick of people picking on Underoath for their religion just because they're the biggest band in that scene. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of other bands that proselytize on a much larger scale and are much more upfront about it. Picking on a band for doing what they do - and just happening to be the biggest band "in the scene" doing it -- is not only unfair, it's a blatent cop out.

The author of this blog's ranting and raving only shows me that he has issues with how other people choose to live their lives, nothing more.

I completely agree especially with the very last sentence.

[steve-0]

meh. some of the essay is good. some of it is bad and relies on generalizations.

Im a Christian and I cant stand the Christian music "scene". He is right that alot of the bands are really bad. I hate the idea of a band being marketed because of their "Christian message". And also that a faith should not be chosen because of something that a band tells you.

However, I dont think that that means that a band shouldnt include their beliefs in their songs. But there should be more accountability than just telling people to believe in Jesus

[John Dunberry]

Ps. I've never heard Underoath push Christianity on anyone. I've heard them say, "we do this for Jesus, just wanted you to know."

And I've seen them 5 or 6 times.

I really am getting sick of people picking on Underoath for their religion just because they're the biggest band in that scene. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of other bands that proselytize on a much larger scale and are much more upfront about it. Picking on a band for doing what they do - and just happening to be the biggest band "in the scene" doing it -- is not only unfair, it's a blatent cop out.

The author of this blog's ranting and raving only shows me that he has issues with how other people choose to live their lives, nothing more.

Well said.

[Morning Glory]

This is an interesting post... the replies are thought provoking and fun to read. Good work Mr. Tao.

[Luckie St]

Ps. I've never heard Underoath push Christianity on anyone. I've heard them say, "we do this for Jesus, just wanted you to know."

And I've seen them 5 or 6 times.

I really am getting sick of people picking on Underoath for their religion just because they're the biggest band in that scene. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of other bands that proselytize on a much larger scale and are much more upfront about it. Picking on a band for doing what they do - and just happening to be the biggest band "in the scene" doing it -- is not only unfair, it's a blatent cop out.

The author of this blog's ranting and raving only shows me that he has issues with how other people choose to live their lives, nothing more.

This was probably the best thing i've ever heard you say.

And just a random note: there are a lot of excellent Christian artists out there who I believe have a really great impact on peoples lives. For example Dustin Kensrue (thrice) and Stephen Christian (Anberlin) I think they do a really great job of portraying their faith to people in a very mature way.

[hypocrisy101]

A lot of the solid state bands will say that at the end of their set, heck. Listen to the lyrics of Maylene and the sons of disaster, As a Christian i devote every part of my life to Jesus and thank him for every opportunity I get. If a played a show in ront of 10 people, or in front of 10,000 people, I'd thank jesus for the opportunity and encourage people to come talk to me about Christianity if they had any questions

[divisionst1203]

Ps. I've never heard Underoath push Christianity on anyone. I've heard them say, "we do this for Jesus, just wanted you to know."

And I've seen them 5 or 6 times.

I really am getting sick of people picking on Underoath for their religion just because they're the biggest band in that scene. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of other bands that proselytize on a much larger scale and are much more upfront about it. Picking on a band for doing what they do - and just happening to be the biggest band "in the scene" doing it -- is not only unfair, it's a blatent cop out.

The author of this blog's ranting and raving only shows me that he has issues with how other people choose to live their lives, nothing more.


absolutely agree, underoath are straight up guys, they are who they come off as and do not pressure anyone with anything..this guy obviously is just taking a stab at one of the biggest christian bands around because they become an easy target, while he has no idea what he's talking about in reference to specific bands


and with your last sentence, i agree completely, he is saying how he feels these bands are pushing off their ideas onto the young minded people and this and that....well what is the purpose of this blog? maybe to show forth his ideas on it? he is doing the same thing, except he does it by putting christian music on the defensive. there are for sure bands who are pushy and such, but that comes with everything, whether its christian, political, or emotional based music. he has no position to single out an entire sub genre of music for any reason.

oh and listen to his band, who does he think he is?

[mxpxjf]

My response was this:

Hey dude. Heard about your blog through AbsolutePunk.net and figured I'd give it a read-through. To start off, I am a very strong believer in Christianity, though maybe not the way most of our Western world has tainted it. I am also a touring (though independent) musician, so I know a lot of where you're coming from, and I will say that I agree with almost everything you said.

The first thing I must disagree with you on is the statement that, "I don't believe it matters one bit" when referring to whether or not there is a God. Now, I suppose if you are positive that there is no God, then this would be the case. However, you have said "I no longer have a desire to find the truth as to whether or not there is a God," implying that you are unsure about God's existence. In this case I would say that it matters more than anything if there is a God or not. Because if, in fact, this God does exist, then your eternal fate is hinged upon your life choices. I am not saying you have to believe that your life choices will determine your eternity, but if you are leaving the option of an existing God open, then there is a possibility of the existence of God making all the difference in the world.

Secondly, I disagree with the statement, "The suggestions that you would need to accept Jesus as your personal savior or even need the promise of a heaven in order to be a good person strikes me as absurd." I know that much of the Western world has painted a picture that conveys this message, but Christianity, as taught by Christ himself, does not send this message. In my personal opinion, many of the "best" people in the world have been (and are) non-Christians (examples: Mahatma Gandhi, who was one of the top ambassadors of peace in history and Bill Gates, who has dedicated most of his self-earned, world's largest fortune to fighting world poverty). I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are Christians and non-Christians that are amazing people. There are also Christians (or at least people who claim to be Christians) who I believe are terrible people (best example: George W. Bush, for reasons we all know).

Other than those two points, I strongly agree with you on the other issues. Christianity, like everything else in our society, has become commercialized. To many people, it's more of a business than a religion. Kudos to you on this blog. Take care.

Joel French

[NationalProduct]

My response was this:

Hey dude. Heard about your blog through AbsolutePunk.net and figured I'd give it a read-through. To start off, I am a very strong believer in Christianity, though maybe not the way most of our Western world has tainted it. I am also a touring (though independent) musician, so I know a lot of where you're coming from, and I will say that I agree with almost everything you said.

The first thing I must disagree with you on is the statement that, "I don't believe it matters one bit" when referring to whether or not there is a God. Now, I suppose if you are positive that there is no God, then this would be the case. However, you have said "I no longer have a desire to find the truth as to whether or not there is a God," implying that you are unsure about God's existence. In this case I would say that it matters more than anything if there is a God or not. Because if, in fact, this God does exist, then your eternal fate is hinged upon your life choices. I am not saying you have to believe that your life choices will determine your eternity, but if you are leaving the option of an existing God open, then there is a possibility of the existence of God making all the difference in the world.

Secondly, I disagree with the statement, "The suggestions that you would need to accept Jesus as your personal savior or even need the promise of a heaven in order to be a good person strikes me as absurd." I know that much of the Western world has painted a picture that conveys this message, but Christianity, as taught by Christ himself, does not send this message. In my personal opinion, many of the "best" people in the world have been (and are) non-Christians (examples: Mahatma Gandhi, who was one of the top ambassadors of peace in history and Bill Gates, who has dedicated most of his self-earned, world's largest fortune to fighting world poverty). I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are Christians and non-Christians that are amazing people. There are also Christians (or at least people who claim to be Christians) who I believe are terrible people (best example: George W. Bush, for reasons we all know).

Other than those two points, I strongly agree with you on the other issues. Christianity, like everything else in our society, has become commercialized. To many people, it's more of a business than a religion. Kudos to you on this blog. Take care.

Joel French

well put

[TSLManager]

There are countless bands out there that do fit into the stereotypes Will is talking about. Next time he should pick one that fits it, not one of the bands that is trying to break down those walls!


Ps. I've never heard Underoath push Christianity on anyone. I've heard them say, "we do this for Jesus, just wanted you to know."

And I've seen them 5 or 6 times.

I really am getting sick of people picking on Underoath for their religion just because they're the biggest band in that scene. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of other bands that proselytize on a much larger scale and are much more upfront about it. Picking on a band for doing what they do - and just happening to be the biggest band "in the scene" doing it -- is not only unfair, it's a blatent cop out.

The author of this blog's ranting and raving only shows me that he has issues with how other people choose to live their lives, nothing more.

[catchmealone]

Ps. I've never heard Underoath push Christianity on anyone. I've heard them say, "we do this for Jesus, just wanted you to know."

And I've seen them 5 or 6 times.

I really am getting sick of people picking on Underoath for their religion just because they're the biggest band in that scene. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of other bands that proselytize on a much larger scale and are much more upfront about it. Picking on a band for doing what they do - and just happening to be the biggest band "in the scene" doing it -- is not only unfair, it's a blatent cop out.

The author of this blog's ranting and raving only shows me that he has issues with how other people choose to live their lives, nothing more.

Well put

This was probably the best thing i've ever heard you say.

And just a random note: there are a lot of excellent Christian artists out there who I believe have a really great impact on peoples lives. For example Dustin Kensrue (thrice) and Stephen Christian (Anberlin) I think they do a really great job of portraying their faith to people in a very mature way.

How about Aaron from mwY. If you have ever talked to him, he is genuine and amazing.

My response was this:

Hey dude. Heard about your blog through AbsolutePunk.net and figured I'd give it a read-through. To start off, I am a very strong believer in Christianity, though maybe not the way most of our Western world has tainted it. I am also a touring (though independent) musician, so I know a lot of where you're coming from, and I will say that I agree with almost everything you said.

The first thing I must disagree with you on is the statement that, "I don't believe it matters one bit" when referring to whether or not there is a God. Now, I suppose if you are positive that there is no God, then this would be the case. However, you have said "I no longer have a desire to find the truth as to whether or not there is a God," implying that you are unsure about God's existence. In this case I would say that it matters more than anything if there is a God or not. Because if, in fact, this God does exist, then your eternal fate is hinged upon your life choices. I am not saying you have to believe that your life choices will determine your eternity, but if you are leaving the option of an existing God open, then there is a possibility of the existence of God making all the difference in the world.

Secondly, I disagree with the statement, "The suggestions that you would need to accept Jesus as your personal savior or even need the promise of a heaven in order to be a good person strikes me as absurd." I know that much of the Western world has painted a picture that conveys this message, but Christianity, as taught by Christ himself, does not send this message. In my personal opinion, many of the "best" people in the world have been (and are) non-Christians (examples: Mahatma Gandhi, who was one of the top ambassadors of peace in history and Bill Gates, who has dedicated most of his self-earned, world's largest fortune to fighting world poverty). I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are Christians and non-Christians that are amazing people. There are also Christians (or at least people who claim to be Christians) who I believe are terrible people (best example: George W. Bush, for reasons we all know).

Other than those two points, I strongly agree with you on the other issues. Christianity, like everything else in our society, has become commercialized. To many people, it's more of a business than a religion. Kudos to you on this blog. Take care.

Joel French

I really enjoyed your response on the blog. I posted mine a few under yours(Foltzie)

[loveofliberty]

Thought provoking, indeed, but the bands with somewhat blatant christian/religious influence which I look up to don't act like that...mewithoutYou, Thrice, etc.

I can definitely see this kind of thing being true with local christian hardcore bands. I went to a good amount of church shows in high school, and naturally there were a few christian straight-edge whatever else hardcore bands and they didn't really act like the humble followers of Jesus' lifestyle that I have seen in much more mature bands.

[loudpunkguitar]

the thing about it is... this is true for ideals other than christianity.

some bands take strong political stands. some of these bands back up their ideas, and others harp on it simply because its cool to yell "f*** bush" at the warped tour.

and there is no escaping the fact that genuine music is gonna reflect a person's ideals. whether they are (insert a religion here), left winged, right winged, whatever...

there a jerks who hail from all different walks of life, and we use that as an excuse to dismiss a whole group of people.

listen to bands you like, and if you think they are full of crap, stop listening.

[Luckie St]

the thing about it is... this is true for ideals other than christianity.

some bands take strong political stands. some of these bands back up their ideas, and others harp on it simply because its cool to yell "f*** bush" at the warped tour.

and there is no escaping the fact that genuine music is gonna reflect a person's ideals. whether they are (insert a religion here), left winged, right winged, whatever...

there a jerks who hail from all different walks of life, and we use that as an excuse to dismiss a whole group of people.

listen to bands you like, and if you think they are full of crap, stop listening.

well said. well said.

ps. you are hot.

[loudpunkguitar]

This was probably the best thing i've ever heard you say.

And just a random note: there are a lot of excellent Christian artists out there who I believe have a really great impact on peoples lives. For example Dustin Kensrue (thrice) and Stephen Christian (Anberlin) I think they do a really great job of portraying their faith to people in a very mature way.

thats a good point man, those guy are both awesome.

[12:46AM]

i thought this was a fairly well written editorial. there's nothing wrong with speaking your thoughts or intelligent discussion.

however, as has been stated in this thread, the author is choosing bands with the intention of proving his points. he seems to ignore the bands that act accordingly to the Word. i have never heard underoath preach at their shows. they say "we do this for Jesus" that's about it. they're not billy graham. have they ever said "everyone who comes on stage now will be saved for eternity!!!"? no. all they are doing is expressing their reasons for doing what they do. perhaps the author has said on stage before that: "we do this for fun!" or "we're doing this for you guys, our fans" and so on. is this any different than what underoath does? no, of course not. these bands are not forcing Jesus on anyone. heck, it is impossible to force Jesus on anybody. it is He who chooses you. not the other way around.

when i saw mewithoutYou, aaron said that "some people say 'Jesus saved my life'. but for me... it's more like... 'Jesus ruined my life'". does that sound like a religious band forcing Jesus or their beliefs on others? of course not! many of these bands know what they are talking about.

the author says that "there is no deep examination of faith". evidently, he has not read the lyrics of aaron weiss or dustin kensrue or many others. there are, however, bands who don't know what they are talking about. bands who claim to be "Christian", but their actions speak otherwise. perhaps these bands aren't Christian in the first place. if this is indeed the case, then maybe the author should be attacking those who claim or pretend to be Christian rather than true believers.

the author also claims that: a) bands preach their faith in order to sell merch/cds/etc and b) that his band has lost sales because they are not Christian. this obviously would be true in a Christian venue, with a Christian headliner, etc. however, imagine if a Christian band opened for bands like gwar or slayer. would they be selling merch because of the fact that they "preach their beliefs"? very doubtably. they would be selling merch as a result of their music and their ability to play a live show. as it should be.

all that being said, it was still an interesting and thought provoking editorial. i will not judge the other, nor should any others.

[12:46AM]

the author also seems to interchange Christianity and the straightedge culture. the two are totally independant, and one does not require the other by any means.

[TyroneShoolaces]

mad props to this dude.

[jfs008]

Ps. I've never heard Underoath push Christianity on anyone. I've heard them say, "we do this for Jesus, just wanted you to know."

And I've seen them 5 or 6 times.

I really am getting sick of people picking on Underoath for their religion just because they're the biggest band in that scene. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of other bands that proselytize on a much larger scale and are much more upfront about it. Picking on a band for doing what they do - and just happening to be the biggest band "in the scene" doing it -- is not only unfair, it's a blatent cop out.

The author of this blog's ranting and raving only shows me that he has issues with how other people choose to live their lives, nothing more.


How about Underoath cutting a show short to preach? Didnt this happen on the Warped Tour? I'm not in disagreement with either christians or non-christians; I just thought your opnion was little harsh. I just think that the main ideal in religion has been watered down, and become something like a marketing tool. Tooth and Nail records are huge "in the scene" because of christianity. I guess every fad has its time.

[nicolerork]

My friend wrote this about the Christian music industry...

Why I Oppose the Christian Music Industry
Don't get me wrong. A few years ago I was excited to discover that "Christians could rock just as hard as everyone else." That we could hold our own on the music front. Unfortunately, I've discovered that my initial feelings were misled. Misled by an Industry that ultimately puts restraints on the faith it supposedly promotes.

There are a plethora of reasons a Christian music advocate might state in defense of the Christian Music Industry. Reasons such as the glorification of God, "safe" and non-offensive listening, and styles of music that parallel the mainstream usually come to mind. However, there are just as many points against this billion dollar industry and it's said music, and these grievances far outweigh the positive side.

My top complaint is the need to label music as "Christian." If a Christian is composing it, shouldn't it reflect that naturally? At least in some aspects. And if not all the time, then fine. And if all the time, then fine. By categorizing and labeling themselves as "Christian" or "worship" music, they isolate themselves. They hold up a blaring neon sign that proclaims "Unbelievers, STAY OUT!" It's like a club. It's not an outward ministry as they'd like to think. They minister only to themselves and others like them.

Another reason people generally like the Christian music scene is because any artist you pick from the batch will be safe to listen to. I think folk-recording artist Shannon Stephens sums it up best:

" Honestly, I feel that the Christian music market was created out of a need for safety by separation. People wanted to know that the music they were listening to would not contaminate their souls or the souls of their children. The truth is that we are not contaminated by our culture, but by our own hearts. I do think it's important to feed the fire as little as possible, but shutting out the world and creating a safe subculture is not what Christ commanded us to do. Rather than making absolute judgments about Christian bands or labels, I try to take them on an individual basis. Sometimes people ask me if I play "Christian music" – I don't even know what to say. I'm a Christian, and I play music, but is it all praise and worship? No. I feel more comfortable outside of the box, where things are more dangerous and often times more real. This is where God utilizes my honesty to be a light in the darkness."

Point taken.

I don't think it's neccessary to have an alternative act for every sort of music out there. Like when people call Relient K the "Christian Blink-182." How do you think the band members feel about that? A few years ago at my school we sat through a presentation called "True Lies." After the presentation we were given a card that listed all sorts of music and bands in the mainstream and next to each category was a list of Christian counter-parts.

This leads me into my next point. What happened to creativity and originality in Christian music? Christians were some of the forerunners in this kind of music. That's pretty much out the window. Every worship band sounds the same, every Christian singer has similar hooks. There are a few signs of life out there, but they are few and far between. Bands like Starflyer 59, The Innocence Mission, and the Danielson Famile still hold on to their shreds of dignity. And that's an impressive feat, considering the stereotype they face as Christians. To be brutally honest, most bands and artists that categorize themselves as "Christian" and "worship" these days are nothing new, nothing exciting, and not that good. And the artists that are good and do label themselves this way are being monopolized by the Industry.

And that brings me to the Industry, itself. How have we let the Church get to this point? We have artists expressing themselves and praising God. Ok. Fine. And then these same artists sell thousands of albums, charge fans money to come "worship" with them, charge money for fans to get into their fanclub and meet them, sell merchandise in the back of churches, and now possess a heck of a lot more money than they need. Sounds very Christian to me. Didn't Jesus cast the moneychangers OUT of the temple? Oh, but we sure did find a way to bring them back in. And it all seems legal, doesn't it? With any industry comes corporate greed. We've commercialized Christianity. Congrats, everyone. Now go buy cds and self-help books at the local Christian bookstore.

What is Christianity? That's for you to figure out. Think good and hard about it. And then think about this Christian Music Industry. Is it fulfilling the requirements? Is it reaching out to those who don't know Christ? No. Because these acts label themselves as "Christian", nobody but Christians come in to listen to them. They can't reach out, not when they're isolating themselves like this. So when these Christians artists form bands and make good music and DON'T label it as Christian, it's a good thing. They're not betraying their faith, they're not disrespecting the Church, they're taking the Gospel where it might not have gone otherwise.

I admit, I used to shop solely at the Christian bookstore for records. I used to be a fan of Pop-Christianity. Now I know better. I know you have to dig for the good, worthwhile music, even if it is put out independently or on tiny labels. I know the local Christian radio station is biased beyond belief. I know a lot of Christians have talent, but they're looked down upon by their brethren because they won't classify themselves and put themselves into neat little boxes. I know these things. You can know them, too.

[DRUMMERGIRL121]

personally, i think he made it seem that christians are somehow all right winged people that judge others all the time. im a christian who is very left winged, so what, that doesnt make me christian-like ? i believe in God, and that he sent his son to die for our sins. i also believe in having a personal relationship with God, because that is what really matters. i do not believe in a "hell", because God is loving, and i do not believe that he would let people burn forever in a fiery hell.

[dw1003]

This is a poorly written essay. There are much better examples of misrepresentations and misinterpretations of the Biblical message in pop culture. Will's siting of a 20 year old sub culture that reached it's peak the same year it formed is an incredibly redundant and watered down way to try and rationalize his own uncertainty in his personal beliefs.

Maybe if his band didn't suck so bad he would have something interesting to say... but seeing how the "hardcore scene" (faith based or not) is old, redundant and uninteresting it is most likely outside of Will's personal capabiliy to verbalize anything beyond the old tired aurguments of a scene full of amature song writers looking to rehash the glory of a dead and irrelevant musical genre.

Furthermore, opinions from the singer of a band that, in itself displays all the all craftsmanship and intelligence of a minor threat cover band in 2006 should not be given creedence by recieving front page news on a moderately intelligent punk rock news site.

I would suggest that Will surrender the dream and go back to school.

[tiff_taff]

Ps. I've never heard Underoath push Christianity on anyone. I've heard them say, "we do this for Jesus, just wanted you to know."

And I've seen them 5 or 6 times.

I really am getting sick of people picking on Underoath for their religion just because they're the biggest band in that scene. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of other bands that proselytize on a much larger scale and are much more upfront about it. Picking on a band for doing what they do - and just happening to be the biggest band "in the scene" doing it -- is not only unfair, it's a blatent cop out.

The author of this blog's ranting and raving only shows me that he has issues with how other people choose to live their lives, nothing more.

I completely agree. I'm so tired of people talking crap or making fun of Underoath. They said they are a Christian band, but they're not rubbing it in your face so get over it and leave them alone.

[johnarc]

being freshly out of a christian band, I see where this kid is coming from. the christian scene can be very bias and judgemental toward bands and people, and it's a bummer.

with that said, the new mewithoutyou record is fucking boss. everyone go buy it.

[stevecrumb]

i would argue the fact that he claims Christianity is a right wing religion. if you're a believer of Jesus, you would know that he was a radical. this is a man who fought the law. he fought the church. he hung out with the prostitutes. he hung out with the sick. he hung out with the tax collectors. he changed the world. i know it's crazy, but George W Bush is NOT what the bible describes as a true follower of Christ. not to say that conservatives can't be christians. but the sold-out type of believers are extremely non-conservative (i'm talking lifestyle, not politics). this guy (i don't know his name) is expecting Christians to be a perfect example. the truth is that he's not gonna find a group of perfect Christians. maybe it's their fault for trying to spread what they believe (i don't think it is)... or maybe he's being a bit too critical (possibly). whatever it is, i wish instead of going around posting stuff on the internet about it, he could talk to real people about it. have conversations about it. figure out why this stuff is going on instead of posting an anti-Christianity type of platform to make kids believe they've been brain washed into their beliefs.

sidenote: it's true that there are a lot of bands out there who use christianity as a marketing tool. it's funny how many of these big christian bands we all love are gonna be getting drunk tonight after they get done playing their show to hundreds of kids that worship them.

[tunemyheart]

personally, i think he made it seem that christians are somehow all right winged people that judge others all the time. im a christian who is very left winged, so what, that doesnt make me christian-like ? i believe in God, and that he sent his son to die for our sins. i also believe in having a personal relationship with God, because that is what really matters. i do not believe in a "hell", because God is loving, and i do not believe that he would let people burn forever in a fiery hell.

I don't mean to pick a fight or anything. I'm a christian and I agree with most of what you say, but if you believe in the validity of atleast some of the Bible (which you do, ie "he sent his son to die for our sins."), then how can you not believe in hell? There are numerous reference to it in the Old Testament and both Paul and Jesus mention it as a real place. - And don't say they are using it as a metaphorical place, b/c the original Greek text firmly describes it as a real place and not a metaphor.

Thoughts?

[stevecrumb]

personally, i think he made it seem that christians are somehow all right winged people that judge others all the time. im a christian who is very left winged, so what, that doesnt make me christian-like ? i believe in God, and that he sent his son to die for our sins. i also believe in having a personal relationship with God, because that is what really matters. i do not believe in a "hell", because God is loving, and i do not believe that he would let people burn forever in a fiery hell.

i hate to start this debate but what you said is semi-contradictory. if you are a christian, you believe the bible is without fault, correct? and if you believe that bible is without fault, you would believe that God meant what he said when he talked about there being a hell? i'm interested in hearing your perspective. please respond.

[stevecrumb]

I don't mean to pick a fight or anything. I'm a christian and I agree with most of what you say, but if you believe in the validity of atleast some of the Bible (which you do, ie "he sent his son to die for our sins."), then how can you not believe in hell? There are numerous reference to it in the Old Testament and both Paul and Jesus mention it as a real place. - And don't say they are using it as a metaphorical place, b/c the original Greek text firmly describes it as a real place and not a metaphor.

Thoughts?

haha, good question. i should've thought of that...

but seriously, i'm wondering where that comes from too

[tunemyheart]

haha, good question. i should've thought of that...

but seriously, i'm wondering where that comes from too


Weird timing. We should go out for lunch or something.

But also, as a Christian, I don't believe the bible is totally without fault. But the evidence surrounding the mentions of Hell make it one of the more plausible concepts in the Bible.

It's ok to believe me, I'm a religion major.

[stevecrumb]

Weird timing. We should go out for lunch or something.

yeah, let's get some lunch after church tomorrow? just catch a flight out to arlington texas. how does chili's sound?

[Manbotisdead]

This guy strikes me as a real winner.

The part where he decides to be a gentlemen and make extremely lewd biblical adaptations to song titles proves this. Honestly, I don't like religion in music, nor do I enjoy intentional bragging about faith (note:I'm not an atheist either, just a dude who thinks religion is really not something to be trying to advertise unless expressly asked in an appropriate situation.) but show some respect for other people and don't intentionally try and offend a shitty band by knocking something they feel strongly about.

If I were this guy, I'd be really embarassed about that.

[drivethruaz]

It's all a matter of personal choice and opinion. There is always two sides, we got to learn to listen and respect everyones opinions

[absolution]

This is just a reminder that we should take some time and consider what we personally believe. I forget exactly what Aaron said, but he said something along the lines of "When I see anger and lack of compassion in the world, I look for the anger and lack of compassion within my heart where the change needs to be made". Not verbatim but good food for thought.

I think everyone owes it to themselves to find out what Christ taught, what Nietzsche wrote, and the list goes on. Message boards and blogs probably aren't the best place to learn as oftentimes they will give you a distorted view of things. There is always a post saying that the person is Christian but they think it is OK to do _______ because that doesn't make them any less Christian. To be brutally honest, a Christian is simply a follower of Christ. If you are following his teachings, you aren't trying to mold them into some sort of buffet where you pick and choose what you want to follow/commit to. Clearly, this is going to eliminate a lot of the miscreants in this guy's post right off the bat. Sure, what they did wasn't right, but it has nothing to do with Christianity. And this goes for any other teaching / belief system.

[dw1003]

It's all a matter of personal choice and opinion. There is always two sides, we got to learn to listen and respect everyones opinions

Let's take a second and state the obvious... what a jerk.

[fifpb99]

"Christianity is right wing so it doesn't belong in the generally leftist ideals of punk music."

"Underoath and other bands that push Christianity during their performances are the ones who made this scene about something other than the music."

So, Underoath made punk / hardcore about something other than music, and not all of the punk bands that push antiwar sentiments, drug use, and ideals of anarchy? Since when is Christianity so much worse than any other belief?

"They express a hip new trend and attach Christianity to it in an attempt to get young, impressionable minds to join their cause without knowing much, if anything, about the faith. This is true irresponsibility."

"Look how in we are with our hair and clothes, and also we love Jesus too, so follow our religion if you would like to be in the crowd."

First off, it's not like being a Christian is the cool thing to do. I remember losing a few friends in high school because I told them I was a Christian. Why? They went from seeing me as myself to seeing me as a missionary lol, even though I never pushed any Christian values. So, it definitley isn't cool to be 'in the crowd'. Secondly, I agree that younger people are impressionable, but I also don't think that they are dumb. I don't think that if a band they like says they played a show for Jesus or says theyre Christian that someone is going to just jump on board. Religion is a big decision, and whether or not you're a kid or not, you know that.


"All it takes to push Christianity during a live set is to tell everyone you could not have done the show without "your Lord and personal savior, Jesus Christ." I have personally heard Underoath and many others say this."

How is that pushing Christianity? Dozens of celebrity's every year at awards shows say 'First, thank you to God/Jesus' No one yells at them for pushing Christianity, and that on an even larger scale -- national television. Simply stating that you believe in Jesus isnt preaching.

"We have been approached many times and asked if we were a "Christian band" and when we answer, "No," the person will choose not to buy our merchandise. I know this is personal choice but it shows the stranglehold the Christian hardcore culture has over these impressionable minds."

And I've seen non-Christians not buy Christian bands merch because they dont agree with Christianity. Where is the difference?

For the record, I'm a "Christian" but only in that I was raised Christian and believe that there is a God. I dont preach and I respect you for what you believe in. But I do think alot of things he brings up in this blog post dont exclusively happen with Christian bands. Christian bands arent the only ones that preach / talk about their ideals, and definitley arent the only ones that ride trends. If he took Christianity out of that blog post it wouldve defined the music 'scene' as it is right now.

[animmortalsoul]

I think that there are three different issues here: First the issue of Christians and their faiths in music; second, the issue of Christianity's veracity or tenability in the first place, and third, Christians' PR department, if you will. I am a Christian, so if you don't want to read this, you can skip it.

As regards Christian music, I have very little opinion. When I was really young, I viewed Christian music as what I today view praise and worship music inside Christian music. What makes the music itself even Christian? Music isn't Christian. People are. As far as the Christians listening to all music, I think that Christians shouldn't cut themselves off from the rest of the world (and I don't use this as a moral term). This includes music - it will save you a lot more friends, and you will find a lot more bands to like. This happened with me. Even starting a list of great non-Christian artists would be stupid. It would go on forever. I don't think the major criterion for judging music should be the faith of those who create it - I think it should be whether it's good. Really, people should be allowed to create music about whatever they want, from Underoath in Some Will Seek Forgiveness all the way over to Celtic Frost in Synagogue Satanae. If listening to something like the latter damages your faith in Christ, okay, I can see you wanting to abstain there. But anyone secure in their faith shouldn't try to isolate themselves from the world, even in music choice.

The tenability of Christianity is the most important point here, and it really couldn't be any other way...the things Jesus had to say to the world were (and are) more incredible than anything anyone else ever said. So far as I know no one else has claimed to be God and still been accepted by mass culture.

I reject Will's view that Christianity is a tool with which we become "peaceful and wise" without being valid about its historical claims. I agree with what he said about being a Christian to become a good person...but that is only because the first thing Christianity posits is that there are no good people! If Christianity is false in all of its claims about God and the divinity of Christ, then how will people become wise and peaceful? By following the advice of either a lunatic or a fiend? (Christ's being a good moral teacher is not logically an option; if he said words like "I am the way, the truth and the life - No one comes to the Father except through me" and was wrong, he isn't a good moral teacher; he is a man who has sparked intolerance of every belief not involving him, and he has misled many people looking for someone to believe in.) Only with a real Christ to emulate and real power other than your own can you become like Christ, which, evidently even Will would acknowledge as good.

As regards hell, first, the existence or non-existence of hell is not a valid reason to either believe or not to believe in Christianity. That would be like me going to school to take an exam, finding it hard, and so choosing to disbelieve in it. I would be within my rights, but I would get a 0. But if Christianity is true, than it is due to the goodness of God that he gives you the freedom to do what you want with your life. No one will end up in hell apart from his or her own choice. It's not about being a good person - many people who claim to be Christians and even many who really are have done worse things than any atheist ever will.Hell is a place where God lets you be right. And think about it - heaven is a place where you will always be in the presence of God, will always be glorifying him, and will always be serving him. If you are a non-Christian, would you really want to go there? Hell is the outside. You may very well be more happy in hell than you would be in heaven. Hell is not a place of perpetual burning. Those are metaphorical for God's view of your life when at last you can live for anything other than him.

Finally, Christians relating to the outside world. I agree with Will most in this section. Christianity is greater (whether right or wrong) than anything like straight-edge/veganism/whatever, simply because it is either more wonderful if true, or hellish if false. Don't sell it to the masses as a trend - it's much more important than that. I agree that to disciple people is vital in Christianity. Examination of faith is vital, though I hope it doesn't take passing 20 to be able to - I'm 15. Also, don't pass yourself off as being a perfect person who knows everything and is going to heaven because you're a perfect person. There is none good save God alone.

So in conclusion, if you believe something other than me, I may disagree with you, but I won't call you a bad person/smash your van window/etc. The right to free speech is being desecrated by many who call themselves Christians today, which is horrible. Many Christians today are trying to force non-Christian ideals and values on non-Christians. I believe this is wrong. Paul says in 1st Corinthians, "Who are you to judge those outside of the church?" I will do my best to emulate Christ in everything I do and say. Jesus' greatest commandments were not "Pass laws banning abortion and homosexuality in my name, while ignoring the poor and the hurting in the world and not attempting to be like me." The most important commands from God, according to Jesus, are:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. And...love your neighbor [and not just the Christian ones] as yourself."

God bless,
Griffin

[tunemyheart]

I think that there are three different issues here: First the issue of Christians and their faiths in music; second, the issue of Christianity's veracity or tenability in the first place, and third, Christians' PR department, if you will. I am a Christian, so if you don't want to read this, you can skip it.

As regards Christian music, I have very little opinion. When I was really young, I viewed Christian music as what I today view praise and worship music inside Christian music. What makes the music itself even Christian? Music isn't Christian. People are. As far as the Christians listening to all music, I think that Christians shouldn't cut themselves off from the rest of the world (and I don't use this as a moral term). This includes music - it will save you a lot more friends, and you will find a lot more bands to like. This happened with me. Even starting a list of great non-Christian artists would be stupid. It would go on forever. I don't think the major criterion for judging music should be the faith of those who create it - I think it should be whether it's good. Really, people should be allowed to create music about whatever they want, from Underoath in Some Will Seek Forgiveness all the way over to Celtic Frost in Synagogue Satanae. If listening to something like the latter damages your faith in Christ, okay, I can see you wanting to abstain there. But anyone secure in their faith shouldn't try to isolate themselves from the world, even in music choice.

The tenability of Christianity is the most important point here, and it really couldn't be any other way...the things Jesus had to say to the world were (and are) more incredible than anything anyone else ever said. So far as I know no one else has claimed to be God and still been accepted by mass culture.

I reject Will's view that Christianity is a tool with which we become "peaceful and wise" without being valid about its historical claims. I agree with what he said about being a Christian to become a good person...but that is only because the first thing Christianity posits is that there are no good people! If Christianity is false in all of its claims about God and the divinity of Christ, then how will people become wise and peaceful? By following the advice of either a lunatic or a fiend? (Christ's being a good moral teacher is not logically an option; if he said words like "I am the way, the truth and the life - No one comes to the Father except through me" and was wrong, he isn't a good moral teacher; he is a man who has sparked intolerance of every belief not involving him, and he has misled many people looking for someone to believe in.) Only with a real Christ to emulate and real power other than your own can you become like Christ, which, evidently even Will would acknowledge as good.

As regards hell, first, the existence or non-existence of hell is not a valid reason to either believe or not to believe in Christianity. That would be like me going to school to take an exam, finding it hard, and so choosing to disbelieve in it. I would be within my rights, but I would get a 0. But if Christianity is true, than it is due to the goodness of God that he gives you the freedom to do what you want with your life. No one will end up in hell apart from his or her own choice. It's not about being a good person - many people who claim to be Christians and even many who really are have done worse things than any atheist ever will.Hell is a place where God lets you be right. And think about it - heaven is a place where you will always be in the presence of God, will always be glorifying him, and will always be serving him. If you are a non-Christian, would you really want to go there? Hell is the outside. You may very well be more happy in hell than you would be in heaven. Hell is not a place of perpetual burning. Those are metaphorical for God's view of your life when at last you can live for anything other than him.



Nice. Glad to see someone who can use CS Lewis effectively.

[DItaliaO]

Give "Say Anything - Admit It!!!" a listen. All will be revealed.

[TSLManager]

I manage Underoath and have NEVER heard of them cutting a show short and preaching, perhaps I have my head up my ass but considering I talk to the band every day and also read this site I would asume it would have come up in one of those two places....


How about Underoath cutting a show short to preach? Didnt this happen on the Warped Tour? I'm not in disagreement with either christians or non-christians; I just thought your opnion was little harsh. I just think that the main ideal in religion has been watered down, and become something like a marketing tool. Tooth and Nail records are huge "in the scene" because of christianity. I guess every fad has its time.

[jfs008]

Give "Say Anything - Admit It!!!" a listen. All will be revealed.


...bless you child...hah. seriously. good reference

[jfs008]

I manage Underoath and have NEVER heard of them cutting a show short and preaching, perhaps I have my head up my ass but considering I talk to the band every day and also read this site I would asume it would have come up in one of those two places....

I suppose it was my mistake bringing any of my opinions onto a christianity thread; but there's certaintly no need to rampage me with words. Be a little bit more reserved with your obviously fiery rhetoric. Underoath shouldnt take all the blame for leading "the christianity cult" in todays scene, but they do because theyre probably the most popular right now. If some other band called Overoath was popular, we'd see them getting shit aswell.

[catchmealone]

Give "Say Anything - Admit It!!!" a listen. All will be revealed.
Eh, I'm not so sure all the answers to lifes important questions can be found in the lyrics to any song.

[Manbotisdead]

I suppose it was my mistake bringing any of my opinions onto a christianity thread; but there's certaintly no need to rampage me with words. Be a little bit more reserved with your obviously fiery rhetoric. Underoath shouldnt take all the blame for leading "the christianity cult" in todays scene, but they do because theyre probably the most popular right now. If some other band called Overoath was popular, we'd see them getting shit aswell.

Keep in mind he is 33 years old.

That should be enough satisfaction for you.

[Jason Tate]

Keep in mind he is 33 years old.

That should be enough satisfaction for you.
That makes ... no sense what-so-ever.

Keep in mind: he manages the band we're currently talking about.

[Jason Tate]

I suppose it was my mistake bringing any of my opinions onto a christianity thread; but there's certaintly no need to rampage me with words. Be a little bit more reserved with your obviously fiery rhetoric. Underoath shouldnt take all the blame for leading "the christianity cult" in todays scene, but they do because theyre probably the most popular right now. If some other band called Overoath was popular, we'd see them getting shit aswell.
You didn't bring your opinion into this thread - you brought something you passed off as fact. You said, "what about Underoath cutting their set at Warped Tour short to preach." This is not an opinion, this is you attempting to pass off something that's NOT TRUE as a fact.

I love how often people try and hide behind the guise and believed immunity of an "opinion;" especially when this so-called opinion was never one to begin with.

[TSLManager]

What's with all the anger dude? fiery rhetoric? you act as if I'm part of the Christian right when I am far from it (I'm a jewish liberal from NY!). I was pointing out that you were incorect and made fun of myself saying maybe I have my head up my ass and it did happen but I didnt think it did.

I wasnt sticking up for the Christian movement or disagreing with anything you said except for that Underoath cut a show short to preach which is not true. You have every right to an opinion but saying a band stopped playing to preach isnt an opinion its a fact (since it never happend you're either lieing to make a point or were given incorect info by someone).

By the way, i also manage Say Anything and I'm glad to see you back what Max has to say there. Admit It is the song that blew my mind and made me an instant Say Anything fan!

What you might get out of me managing a Jewish band and a Chrisitan band is that I back great music an clearly suport peoples rights to have an opinion.

I suppose it was my mistake bringing any of my opinions onto a christianity thread; but there's certaintly no need to rampage me with words. Be a little bit more reserved with your obviously fiery rhetoric. Underoath shouldnt take all the blame for leading "the christianity cult" in todays scene, but they do because theyre probably the most popular right now. If some other band called Overoath was popular, we'd see them getting shit aswell.

[TSLManager]

So explain what is wrong with being 33 and still going to punk shows and caring about bands? What are the chances you will still be around and a part of this scene or whatever it evolves (yes I belive in evolution!) into by the time you're 33?

I don't preach that I'm better than anyone becuase I have been going to shows for over 15 years yet plenty of kids go off on 15 year olds for only being into the scene for two years while thay have been into it for 4 or 5 years. I'm not saying you do that but most "scene kids" do, this is the first time I heard that it's not cool to be in the scene for too long.


Keep in mind he is 33 years old.

That should be enough satisfaction for you.

[loudpunkguitar]

TSLManager, you are the man.

[RX XR]

whats up with all these bands lashing out on christianity? if they don't believe thats cool but they dont need to get all mad.

[Dead as Disco]

On one hand, when you go to a show you are paying money to listen to the band play music not preach, but on the other hand, if you're making the conscious choice to see an openly christian band, can you really claim to be that unsettled when it happens?

[mxpxjf]

When you pay to see a band, that band has the right to say whatever the hell they want on stage. Period.

[bung]

The irony being that punk music was originally a rebellion from such things as Christianity.

In the words of Karl Marx: "Religion is the opium of the masses."

[mmmuffins]

The people in the story need a swift kick in the pants. A lot of these bands now are out there brainwashing kids and the bands don't even know what they are talking about.
I agree. The whole Christian hardcore thing is a dead horse, anyways, as there's more and more facsimile bands popping up in a town near you.

I think this Christian thing is just the tip of the iceberg. It's not just them, it's the whole scene. The thing about their music, though, is that they're expressly Christian, not gospel. Their focus is the rock, not the religion. The Christian is a gimmick most of the time. The stigma attached to being labeled a gospel or worship group won't get them the fans they want. Any group that doesn't mind being put in those categories is obviously there for a good reason.

[hyperllama]

For someone who has read the bible inside out, he really doesn't have a very good understanding of what it is to follow Christ.

[chillinlikejim]

Probably no one will read this because this is a long list of replies.
Will, you may be correct. unfortunately there are a lot of uneducated Christians in the world that hurt the cause of Christ. People that judge one another instead of love one another. People who don't respect other peoples opinions or beliefs. That is truly sad, and it grieves God. But there are many others who do live the life of a believer. I try to be one. The gospel is not just about God's love, its also about his wrath. God is a just God. When people commit sin that is breaking God's law, just like getting caught smoking weed. When you get caught breaking a law, you pay a fine. Unfortunately the fine is hell. How can a holy, righteous God allow a sinful human in his presence? Jesus is the bridge to eternal life. He covers or attones for our sins. He is the lamb of God that shed his blood for the sins of the world. But the sinner must repent of his sins and believe. Augustine says about God, "You have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you." The Christian life is a difficult one, but the pleasure of this world are nothing to tasting the pleasures of God.

[chillinlikejim]

The reason believers try to tell their friends about the reality of hell, is because they believe in hell and they don't want their friends to go there. This is a fallen world we live in. Sin is the result of our self-centeredness. Flee the wrath to come. Humanity is destined to remain unfulfilled or incomplete without Christ in their lives. Plato compares human being to leaky jars in his work "Gorgias." We try to fill ourselves up with things that do not last (cds, clothes, houses, cars) only to continue this vicious circle till we die. We are restless until we rest in Christ.
Becoming a Christian doesn't mean we won't have any more problems. Christians still must fight temptation daily. Deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow me- Luke 9:23.

[jfs008]

What's with all the anger dude? fiery rhetoric? you act as if I'm part of the Christian right when I am far from it (I'm a jewish liberal from NY!). I was pointing out that you were incorect and made fun of myself saying maybe I have my head up my ass and it did happen but I didnt think it did.

I wasnt sticking up for the Christian movement or disagreing with anything you said except for that Underoath cut a show short to preach which is not true. You have every right to an opinion but saying a band stopped playing to preach isnt an opinion its a fact (since it never happend you're either lieing to make a point or were given incorect info by someone).

By the way, i also manage Say Anything and I'm glad to see you back what Max has to say there. Admit It is the song that blew my mind and made me an instant Say Anything fan!

What you might get out of me managing a Jewish band and a Chrisitan band is that I back great music an clearly suport peoples rights to have an opinion.

Youre right, I was wrong in trying to pass off a rumor for a fact. Considering youre the manager of Underoath, you are entitled to support and bash gossip. I was speaking impulsively. In either case, I'm not taking back everything i said. i guess im just refining my thoughts. in actuality, im not really concerned with how underoath carries out themselves. in either case, i was not implying you had your head up for your ass; my bad. and...your being 33 has nothing to do with anything you said. whatever age you are, the thoughts we have still deserve merit.

[catchmealone]

The irony being that punk music was originally a rebellion from such things as Christianity.

In the words of Karl Marx: "Religion is the opium of the masses."

Understood, and I was disappointed when this point was hardly discussed in the article, as I was hoping. It was more of just a bashing of Christians. In my replies on the blog, I discussed this issue, and how I feel that I can be a Christian and still a part of Hardcore/Punk music scene. Read what I said if you care, my myspace name is Foltzie.

For someone who has read the bible inside out, he really doesn't have a very good understanding of what it is to follow Christ.
Haha, precisely. He should know that many Christians are being misled by bad leaders in the Church. But there are amazing people out there making a difference in this world.

The reason believers try to tell their friends about the reality of hell, is because they believe in hell and they don't want their friends to go there. This is a fallen world we live in. Sin is the result of our self-centeredness. Flee the wrath to come. Humanity is destined to remain unfulfilled or incomplete without Christ in their lives. Plato compares human being to leaky jars in his work "Gorgias." We try to fill ourselves up with things that do not last (cds, clothes, houses, cars) only to continue this vicious circle till we die. We are restless until we rest in Christ.
Becoming a Christian doesn't mean we won't have any more problems. Christians still must fight temptation daily. Deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow me- Luke 9:23.

In 2 of the books I've read lately, they have actually told stories from other lives and from their own lives that actually say the obvious. I think it was Rob Bell in A Velvet Elvis that said "Jesus ruined my life." To truely follow Christ, you encounter so many problems along the way. It's not an easy road, which is why the path to God is the straight and narrow.

[mma]

Did you (all of you offended by Will's blog) read "My Experiences"? I've always looked at being a Christian (or any religion that one might practice) as a commitment to being a living model for representing your faith. If you're going to preach it and not live it, what is the point? It's actually disgusting what happened to them on tour.

[rinjonjori]

This is not surprising at all. Back when I was young I used to see SXE bands drinking all the time. It bummed me out but now I know better. I dig Norma Jean and the reason is I can't understand the vocals. If I could they would probably piss me off. For every hypocrite their is someone who is as straight as an arrow.

http://slavetoshuffle.blogspot.com/

[mma]

This is a poorly written essay. There are much better examples of misrepresentations and misinterpretations of the Biblical message in pop culture. Will's siting of a 20 year old sub culture that reached it's peak the same year it formed is an incredibly redundant and watered down way to try and rationalize his own uncertainty in his personal beliefs.

Maybe if his band didn't suck so bad he would have something interesting to say... but seeing how the "hardcore scene" (faith based or not) is old, redundant and uninteresting it is most likely outside of Will's personal capabiliy to verbalize anything beyond the old tired aurguments of a scene full of amature song writers looking to rehash the glory of a dead and irrelevant musical genre.

Furthermore, opinions from the singer of a band that, in itself displays all the all craftsmanship and intelligence of a minor threat cover band in 2006 should not be given creedence by recieving front page news on a moderately intelligent punk rock news site.

I would suggest that Will surrender the dream and go back to school.


Ouch. I'm sure that last blow really hit Will hard. You're ridiculous for saying that. I don't think the essay had much to do with Autonym "sucking" as you so intelligently put it.

[rhinitus]

So explain what is wrong with being 33 and still going to punk shows and caring about bands? What are the chances you will still be around and a part of this scene or whatever it evolves (yes I belive in evolution!) into by the time you're 33?

I don't preach that I'm better than anyone becuase I have been going to shows for over 15 years yet plenty of kids go off on 15 year olds for only being into the scene for two years while thay have been into it for 4 or 5 years. I'm not saying you do that but most "scene kids" do, this is the first time I heard that it's not cool to be in the scene for too long.


im 21 and im starting to feel old at a lot of the shows i go to...props to you man

[rhinitus]

and can someone please explain how "admit it" is relevant?

[Gleebo]

Get a pop-up blocking browser? Firefox? IE7?

Been using Firefox for 2 years now. Pop up blockers kill too many things I actually use to keep it on all the time. And I actually don't mind the pop ups around here as long as they aren't the same one or two for a long time. But im not running this site and know that as long as someone is paying for an ad, you run it. Not really complaining, just wondering how much longer it was gonna be around.