View Full Version : French Senate Passes Ban On Muslim Veils
Lueda Alia
09/14/10, 12:03 PM
PARIS – The French Senate on Tuesday overwhelmingly passed a bill banning the burqa-style Islamic veil in public, but the leaders of both parliamentary houses said they had asked a special council to first ensure the measure passes constitutional muster amid concerns its tramples on religious freedoms.
The Senate voted 246 to 1 Tuesday in favor of the bill, which has already passed in the lower chamber, the National Assembly. It will need President Nicolas Sarkozy's signature.
Legislative leaders said they wanted the Constitutional Council to examine it.
"This law was the object of long and complex debates," the Senate president, Gerard Larcher, and National Assembly head Bernard Accoyer said in a joint statement explaining their move. They said in a joint statement that they want to be certain there is "no uncertainty" about it conforming to the constitution.
The measure effects less than 2,000 women.
Many Muslims believe the legislation is one more blow to France's second religion, and risks raising the level of Islamophobia in a country where mosques, like synagogues, are sporadic targets of hate. However, the vast majority behind the measure say it will preserve the nation's singular values, including its secular foundation and a notion of fraternity that is contrary to those who hide their faces.
France would be the first European country to pass such a law though others, notably neighboring Belgium, are considering laws against face-covering veils, seen as anathema to the local culture.
"Our duty concerning such fundamental principles of our society is to speak with one voice," said Justice Minister Michele Alliot-Marie, opening a less than 5-hour-long debate ahead of the vote.
The measure, carried by Sarkozy's conservative party, was passed overwhelmingly by the lower house of parliament, the National Assembly, on July 13.
Source (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100914/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_forbidding_the_veil).
Thoughts?
RushAndAPush
09/14/10, 12:10 PM
It's the French. What do you expect? Seriously though, this is out of line.
TheProsAndCons
09/14/10, 12:20 PM
What happens if they refuse to take them off?
peder458
09/14/10, 12:25 PM
"The measure effects less than 2,000 women."
I might be reading too much into this, but it seems like they are saying it is an insignificant amount of people to steal rights from...
saysmydoctor
09/14/10, 12:47 PM
Sigh.
Simulcast
09/14/10, 01:02 PM
Ah, secularist Europe rears its ugly head.
Dustin Harkins
09/14/10, 01:11 PM
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1020/tacticalfacepalmxj.jpg
I find this very necessary.
Debut_Fin
09/14/10, 01:20 PM
I haven't read much about this. Can anyone tell me France's reasoning behind this?
jwicklun
09/14/10, 01:29 PM
To think we suffer with Muslim bigotry...
I haven't read much about this. Can anyone tell me France's reasoning behind this?
France has historically been very nationalist, and are very arrogant and prideful of their French culture. They maintain that if you want to be a part of their country you have to accept French culture over your own and they think that the Muslim veils do not fit into French culture and that is why they are being banned. Even though this is pretty fucked up, I can't say I'm the least bit surprised.
Simulcast
09/14/10, 01:54 PM
France has historically been very nationalist, and are very arrogant and prideful of their French culture. They maintain that if you want to be a part of their country you have to accept French culture over your own and they think that the Muslim veils do not fit into French culture and that is why they are being banned. Even though this is pretty fucked up, I can't say I'm the least bit surprised.
I think they claim it has something to do with equality as well.
Kozzy333
09/14/10, 02:02 PM
I don't really understand why any women would choose to wear something that covers their entire face but I don't think the right to do so should be taken away.
Not really a fan of the Burqa (which is the only thing affected by this I believe), but I'm really not a fan of this law either. Not surprised France is the first to pass one like it though. It's all about culture over there from what I hear.
caveBEAR
09/14/10, 03:18 PM
I think they claim it has something to do with equality as well.
If I remember correctly from when I heard the argument like that, they claim that many Muslim women aren't given the choice to wear the veil or not, so they want to ban them outright to just get rid of that problem.
Sounds like bullshit to me, but I'm not French, nor do I pretend to understand French culture/their own Muslim prejudices.
bridgeofeldin
09/14/10, 03:43 PM
The French may be banning them on grounds of safety and security. Say, hypothetically, a veiled woman robs a bank. Security cameras would be inefficient in apprehending her/anyone trying to cover their body to prevent detection for a crime.
/benefitofthedoubt
Edit: I'm not saying that this is necessarily right, but the strictest Muslim culture does undermine the rights of women.
boxingwithstars
09/14/10, 03:45 PM
What happens if they refuse to take them off?
from the source:
It would outlaw face-covering veils, including those worn by tourists from the Middle East, on public streets and elsewhere. The bill set fines of euro150 ($185) or citizenship classes for any woman caught covering her face, or both. It also carries stiff penalties for anyone, such as husbands or brothers, convicted of forcing the veil on a woman. The euro30,000 ($38,400) fine and year in prison are doubled if the victim is a minor.
boxingwithstars
09/14/10, 03:54 PM
The French may be banning them on grounds of safety and security. Say, hypothetically, a veiled woman robs a bank. Security cameras would be inefficient in apprehending her/anyone trying to cover their body to prevent detection for a crime.
/benefitofthedoubt
Edit: I'm not saying that this is necessarily right, but the strictest Muslim culture does undermine the rights of women.
No, that is not even close to being the reason. They are doing this because France is notoriously Islamophobic. The government has been trying to ban the burqa for a long time.
I can see both sides but there definitely is a reason for "Islamophobia" and unfortunately because of both sides I dont think that will change anytime soon.
i'm suprised it passed with so little dissent.
perceptrons
09/14/10, 03:59 PM
I can see both sides but there definitely is a reason for "Islamophobia" and unfortunately because of both sides I dont think that will change anytime soon.
Oh yeah? What reason is that?
bridgeofeldin
09/14/10, 04:07 PM
No, that is not even close to being the reason. They are doing this because France is notoriously Islamophobic. The government has been trying to ban the burqa for a long time.
Haha yeah I know, I was kidding about the bank thing. But in all seriousness, the burqa challenges Western culture. Should democracies guarantee the right to women to express themselves freely or should they respect the freedom of this religious practice? In theory, both are already guaranteed. But this particular instance contradicts itself. Should a woman who does not want to wear the burqa be forced to by her husband? That's the issue.
Of course, there are many women who claim they like wearing the burqa. I think they have a right to do so. I'm trying to raise the point that this issue isn't so clear cut.
whiterussian
09/14/10, 04:16 PM
it's complicated.
you can't just call it an abuse. you can't call it entirely fair. every burka-wearing woman has her own reason for wearing... some are forced, some choose to, others might be brainwashed into doing so.
happy I live in the country of nothingness.
boxingwithstars
09/14/10, 04:17 PM
Haha yeah I know, I was kidding about the bank thing. But in all seriousness, the burqa challenges Western culture. Should democracies guarantee the right to women to express themselves freely or should they respect the freedom of this religious practice? In theory, both are already guaranteed. But this particular instance contradicts itself. Should a woman who does not want to wear the burqa be forced to by her husband? That's the issue.
Of course, there are many women who claim they like wearing the burqa. I think they have a right to do so. I'm trying to raise the point that this issue isn't so clear cut.
Do you really think telling them how they can and cannot dress in public is the way to do that?
I don't think any woman should be forced to do anything they don't want to do by anyone... and that includes the government forcing them to not wear face veils. What if the US told women they were no longer allowed to wear the cross because Christianity and Catholicism have a history of oppressing women? You cannot get people to change their deep seated religious views by force, it doesn't work like that.
bridgeofeldin
09/14/10, 04:19 PM
Do you really think telling them how they can and cannot dress in public is the way to do that?
I don't think any woman should be forced to do anything they don't want to do by anyone... and that includes the government forcing them to not wear face veils. What if the US told women they were no longer allowed to wear the cross because Christianity and Catholicism have a history of oppressing women? You cannot get people to change their deep seated religious views by force, it doesn't work like that.
Right, this was my point. In both circumstances, the government and the religion are taking away the rights of women. What I'm trying to tell you is that they're both wrong for doing so.
Simulcast
09/14/10, 04:33 PM
Do you really think telling them how they can and cannot dress in public is the way to do that?
I don't think any woman should be forced to do anything they don't want to do by anyone... and that includes the government forcing them to not wear face veils. What if the US told women they were no longer allowed to wear the cross because Christianity and Catholicism have a history of oppressing women? You cannot get people to change their deep seated religious views by force, it doesn't work like that.
Interestingly enough in 2004 France banned all "ostentatious" religious displays in public schools, including large crosses and head scarves, both worn by students.
Good job France. Finally had the balls to do something right.
caveBEAR
09/14/10, 04:50 PM
Good job France. Finally had the balls to do something right.
Why was this decision right?
Debut_Fin
09/14/10, 04:59 PM
Oh yeah? What reason is that?
because out of the 1.6 billion Muslims, some of them are terrorists
caveBEAR
09/14/10, 05:03 PM
because out of the 1.6 billion Muslims, some of them are terrorists
I was talking to my grandmother the other night, and she said (about Muslims/Middle Easterners), 'it's not their fault that they're so scary looking'.
...fucking facepalm.
zion the lion
09/14/10, 05:11 PM
I don't really understand why any women would choose to wear something that covers their entire face but I don't think the right to do so should be taken away.
Other than the religious reasons, it protects their face from the uv rays which helps protect them from aging, sunburn, and skin cancer. Why wouldnt you wear something that covers you?
Debut_Fin
09/14/10, 05:12 PM
I was talking to my grandmother the other night, and she said (about Muslims/Middle Easterners), 'it's not their fault that they're so scary looking'.
...fucking facepalm.
I think Islamophobia is justified when you look at the statistics
1 out of every 80 million muslims was involved with September 11th
You'd be crazy not to fear all of them
caveBEAR
09/14/10, 05:15 PM
I think Islamophobia is justified when you look at the statistics
1 out of every 80 million muslims was involved with September 11th
You'd be crazy not to fear all of them
:lol:
ASOGenius
09/14/10, 05:16 PM
It has nothing to do with terrorists. Its about Islamophobia, which isn't only about fearing Muslim terrorist. According to current European birthrates, eventually the Europeans will lose majority in their countries to Muslims because the Muslims are having much more babies than the Europeans. Europeans are extremely nationalistic in a different sense than Americans. Their nationality is about their heritage and American nationality is not about their heritage but about the American lifestyle. The Europeans don't see the Muslim or their children born in European as being European in anyway and want them out of the country. This is part of trying to get them out of the country.
Debut_Fin
09/14/10, 05:22 PM
It has nothing to do with terrorists. Its about Islamophobia, which is only about fearing Muslim terrorist. According to current European birthrates, eventually the Europeans will lose majority in their countries to Muslims because the Muslims are having much more babies than the Europeans. Europeans are extremely nationalistic in a different sense than Americans. Their nationality is about their heritage and American nationality is not about their heritage but about the American lifestyle. The Europeans don't see the Muslim or their children born in European as being European in anyway and want them out of the country. This is part of trying to get them out of the country.
It's definitely about both. Some of the (obnoxious) conservative propoganda emails that my grandpop forwards to me are about how much he and others fear a white minority in America
ASOGenius
09/14/10, 05:31 PM
It's definitely about both. Some of the (obnoxious) conservative propoganda emails that my grandpop forwards to me are about how much he and others fear a white minority in America That's not a nationality thing, that's a race thing. No matter what race you are you can become an American and be considered an American by fellow American. You don't even have to be born here, just live here. Notice: African Americans, Asian Americans, Italian Americans, Irish Americans. They all have the word American in them even though they are from other countries. Muslims in France aren't called Muslim French or French Muslims by people of French origin. They are simply called Muslims or Foreignors even if they were born in the country.
Your grandpop is afraid of American being full of Americans who aren't white, not people who he doesn't even consider american.
Aslo I meant to say isn't only about terrorism
Jake Gyllenhaal
09/14/10, 05:36 PM
It's definitely about both. Some of the (obnoxious) conservative propoganda emails that my grandpop forwards to me are about how much he and others fear a white minority in America
If white conservatives feel threatened to be the minority, then they better get started on more screwin'
Debut_Fin
09/14/10, 05:36 PM
That's not a nationality thing, that's a race thing. No matter what race you are you can become an American and be considered an American by fellow American. You don't even have to be born here, just live here. Notice: African Americans, Asian Americans, Italian Americans, Irish Americans. They all have the word American in them even though they are from other countries. Muslims in France aren't called Muslim French or French Muslims by people of French origin. They are simply called Muslims or Foreignors even if they were born in the country.
Your grandpop is afraid of American being full of Americans who aren't white, not people who he doesn't even consider american.
Aslo I meant to say isn't only about terrorism
I should have said a predominantly Hispanic America, since Hispanics are technically "white".
Debut_Fin
09/14/10, 05:37 PM
If white conservatives feel threatened to be the minority, then they better get started on more screwin'
but who gives a fuck what the white conservatives are threatened by
Oh yeah? What reason is that?
The very short answer? Because every time the first amendment is compromised by a small fanatical fraction of muslims a larger group of people fear Islam as a whole as a religion of hatred and vengeance. Basically, people are stupid for categorizing an entire religion based on the views of a small minority group. However, this minority has instilled enough fear into the media, country, and world that Islam is given a double standard.
Why can trey parker and matt stone depict Jesus shitting all over the American flag or the Virgin Mary pissing blood all over the pope but not show muhammad handing a fish to peter griffin? Why can the KKK hold rallies in front of African Americans or the westboro baptist church hold signs outside of military funerals saying "god hates ****" or "your son died because hes a ***" while terry jones can not burn a quran and is asked by the president to call it off? Simply, because of the fear a minority muslim group has infused in people and unfortunately more and more people are grouping all muslims together.
Love As Arson
09/14/10, 05:38 PM
That's not a nationality thing, that's a race thing. No matter what race you are you can become an American and be considered an American by fellow American. You don't even have to be born here, just live here. Notice: African Americans, Asian Americans, Italian Americans, Irish Americans. They all have the word American in them even though they are from other countries. Muslims in France aren't called Muslim French or French Muslims by people of French origin. They are simply called Muslims or Foreignors even if they were born in the country.
There definitely is a standard for what it means to be American. It usually involves blonde kids, picket fences and Jesus pictures scattered throughout your house.
salt1384
09/14/10, 07:24 PM
I'm french and agree with this decision completely, also. To me, banning the face veil kind of homogenizes men and women's rights. I'm sure (ad hope) a lot of the Muslim female population who wear them are going to be rather pleased with this decision because, in most cases, they are forced to wear them. They need more freedom and I think that Muslim extremists are way too strict when it comes to this subject. Of course, every one is entitled to their own beliefs and traditions, but I feel like it's usually the men who enforce this upon the women. Considering the fact that, in that culture, there's a sort of implicit belief that women are "inferior" to men, the women stand hopeless in this situation and can't disobey their husbands/fathers.
Also, when I was in France this summer, there were a bunch of news reports about how wearing a face veil is a safety issue.
Scrandon
09/14/10, 07:29 PM
Sigh.
Le sigh.
Scrandon
09/14/10, 07:39 PM
I'm french and agree with this decision completely, also. To me, banning the face veil kind of homogenizes men and women's rights. I'm sure (ad hope) a lot of the Muslim female population who wear them are going to be rather pleased with this decision because, in most cases, they are forced to wear them. They need more freedom and I think that Muslim extremists are way too strict when it comes to this subject. Of course, every one is entitled to their own beliefs and traditions, but I feel like it's usually the men who enforce this upon the women. Considering the fact that, in that culture, there's a sort of implicit belief that women are "inferior" to men, the women stand hopeless in this situation and can't disobey their husbands/fathers.
Also, when I was in France this summer, there were a bunch of news reports about how wearing a face veil is a safety issue.
I see where you're going with this, but telling someone that she cannot do something does not give her more freedom. The situation you described is certainly a problem, but this is definitely not the answer.
salt1384
09/14/10, 07:42 PM
I see where you're going with this, but telling someone that she cannot do something does not give her more freedom. The situation you described is certainly a problem, but this is definitely not the answer.
But most Muslim women DON'T want to wear these.
And yeah, you're right. It doesn't make sense how I said that telling someone to not do something gives them more freedom... my bad. But I think you get my point.
"The measure effects less than 2,000 women."
I might be reading too much into this, but it seems like they are saying it is an insignificant amount of people to steal rights from...
Not to mention, shouldn't it be "affects" not "effects"?
mcm1610
09/14/10, 09:13 PM
Should. A for the verb, e for the noun.
crackedthesky
09/14/10, 09:24 PM
The reason Muslim wear veils goes back to the Quran, if I recall it's basically women aren't good enough for Allah and have to be covered up. I'd wager France passed this as a way of forced circumvention of that ideal, perhaps an attempt to bring that aspect of Islam into a more "modern" setting.
Honestly, I'm really not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, there's an outrageous aspect of it. They're basically forcing people to go against their religion.
On the other, laws force people to go against religion all the time. The three big holy books all contain references to stoning people to death for not following the religion, but it's obviously not "outrageous" in any way for a country to pass a law saying you can't stone someone to death.
By that logic, couldn't such laws be extended when it comes to somewhat less severe things than stoning? Mormons aren't allowed to practice polygamy, for example. People aren't allowed to sacrifice sheep. Why draw the line at laws against forcing woman to be suppressed in public?
Like I said, I honestly don't know how to feel about this.
open mind
09/14/10, 11:12 PM
legislation of what can one wear (or not wear) is completely fucked.....in my mind it reeks of native children being forced into boarding schools that wouldn't allow them to wear traditional dress, forced conversions to christianity, and beat them for speaking their native languages.
some may say this isn't so bad, but it's the first step towards a total rape of muslim pride, tradition, and the hope of mutual coexistence....making the all or nothing (total victory or total destruction) approach more attractive......and just as with the case of native populations of the americas big business can't lose, they either break the resistance (with the firepower of the government) and get all that they want or they kill everyone who stands in their way (with government backing) and get what they want.
peder458
09/15/10, 08:19 AM
Not to mention, shouldn't it be "affects" not "effects"?
Quality catch. All-around, this is silly.
peder458
09/15/10, 08:20 AM
legislation of what can one wear (or not wear) is completely fucked.....in my mind it reeks of native children being forced into boarding schools that wouldn't allow them to wear traditional dress, forced conversions to christianity, and beat them for speaking their native languages.
some may say this isn't so bad, but it's the first step towards a total rape of muslim pride, tradition, and the hope of mutual coexistence....making the all or nothing (total victory or total destruction) approach more attractive......and just as with the case of native populations of the americas big business can't lose, they either break the resistance (with the firepower of the government) and get all that they want or they kill everyone who stands in their way (with government backing) and get what they want.
A bit of a rant, but well put. This is ridiculous.
Chris92
09/15/10, 01:45 PM
The ideal situation would be for France simply to enact the part of the law that fines a family member for forcing a veil on a woman or girl, but allow women to wear a veil if they so choose. However, this would obviously be a pretty difficult law to enact. Therefore, in my opinion, the French government's infringement upon the religious rights of Muslim women is more egregious than said family member's infringement upon the rights of a Muslim woman. There's really not a good answer here, but this should not have passed.
mcm1610
09/15/10, 02:08 PM
What about the law that forces you to wear pants in public? Pretty terrible, eh?
Devil's Advocate here... I don't know which way I feel about this because there are plusses and minuses of each side.
x togepi x
09/15/10, 02:57 PM
The reason Muslim wear veils goes back to the Quran, if I recall it's basically women aren't good enough for Allah and have to be covered up. I'd wager France passed this as a way of forced circumvention of that ideal, perhaps an attempt to bring that aspect of Islam into a more "modern" setting.
.
no....it was supposed to be a form of protection. Islam rose out of a nomadic culture which came into conflict with other cultures. wearing a veil was supposed to protect women because they would supposedly not look attractive so other people wouldn't want to steal them away from their husbands.
it isn't even clear that the veil is required. in some muslim countries, that isn't the culture.
deFobbed14yrs
09/15/10, 04:08 PM
The reason Muslim wear veils goes back to the Quran, if I recall it's basically women aren't good enough for Allah and have to be covered up. I'd wager France passed this as a way of forced circumvention of that ideal, perhaps an attempt to bring that aspect of Islam into a more "modern" setting.
Honestly, I'm really not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, there's an outrageous aspect of it. They're basically forcing people to go against their religion.
On the other, laws force people to go against religion all the time. The three big holy books all contain references to stoning people to death for not following the religion, but it's obviously not "outrageous" in any way for a country to pass a law saying you can't stone someone to death.
By that logic, couldn't such laws be extended when it comes to somewhat less severe things than stoning? Mormons aren't allowed to practice polygamy, for example. People aren't allowed to sacrifice sheep. Why draw the line at laws against forcing woman to be suppressed in public?
Like I said, I honestly don't know how to feel about this.
Many women who practice Islam feel that the veil is a sign of utter devotion to God, and some don't. It's all how that woman interprets the Quran.
"There are some Muslims who reject it vigorously but they agree with the headscarf. There are other Muslims who accept it while feeling that it is an extra thing and a recommended act but not obligatory. And there are also Muslims who assert that it is the required form of modest dress for women. This last group are very vocal and thus get more attention that their numbers would otherwise suggest."
That's not a nationality thing, that's a race thing. No matter what race you are you can become an American and be considered an American by fellow American. You don't even have to be born here, just live here. Notice: African Americans, Asian Americans, Italian Americans, Irish Americans. They all have the word American in them even though they are from other countries. Muslims in France aren't called Muslim French or French Muslims by people of French origin. They are simply called Muslims or Foreignors even if they were born in the country.
Your grandpop is afraid of American being full of Americans who aren't white, not people who he doesn't even consider american.
Aslo I meant to say isn't only about terrorism
i can agree with this. after living in germany for 6 months, i saw how turkish-germans who were born in germany weren't really accepted as being german...and a lot of them didn't want to be. this is a major difference with the u.s. you can be white, black, french, spanish, polish, catholic, etc. whatever, and still be american. i feel like in europe, if you're not white or not european, you're not french/german/english/whatever.
So apparently the French only like Muslims when they are winning soccer games for them... (Zidane)
crackedthesky
09/15/10, 05:57 PM
no....it was supposed to be a form of protection. Islam rose out of a nomadic culture which came into conflict with other cultures. wearing a veil was supposed to protect women because they would supposedly not look attractive so other people wouldn't want to steal them away from their husbands.
it isn't even clear that the veil is required. in some muslim countries, that isn't the culture.
I am almost positive that those veils are mentioned in the Quran, and I don't remember it having anything to do with protection. But I could be wrong.
mcm1610
09/15/10, 06:10 PM
I have no idea how it's worded, but as far as I knew it was something about being temptation for men, so they must cover themselves head to toe, which implicitly and probably accidentally implies that men are weak.
deFobbed14yrs
09/15/10, 07:18 PM
I am almost positive that those veils are mentioned in the Quran, and I don't remember it having anything to do with protection. But I could be wrong.
I have no idea how it's worded, but as far as I knew it was something about being temptation for men, so they must cover themselves head to toe, which implicitly and probably accidentally implies that men are weak.
translation of the part in the Quran about veils
And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their adornment except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful
crackedthesky
09/15/10, 07:20 PM
translation of the part in the Quran about veils
And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their adornment except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful
Keep looking. I know what I read, and that isn't it.
deFobbed14yrs
09/15/10, 07:30 PM
Keep looking. I know what I read, and that isn't it.
so the two year in depth research of the veil by Al-Muhajabah is wrong.right.
it's the translation of Surah an-Nur ayah 31 which addresses the head dress.
you might have read a hadith.......
crackedthesky
09/15/10, 07:36 PM
so the two year in depth research of the veil by Al-Muhajabah is wrong.right.
it's the translation of Surah an-Nur ayah 31 which addresses the head dress.
you might have read a hadith.......
Yeah, I didn't say anything at all about what you wrote or where you got it from, and I'm asking questions because I honestly don't know, so let's cut down on the attacks, shall we?
I read something that I'm pretty sure was the Quran and it was about why the women must wear veils, that they symbolized a veil between women and Allah or something.
I'm not saying what you wrote isn't in there. I just know I read that somewhere that I'm pretty sure was the Quran, and I don't have the ability to look it up right now. It's not like the Quran couldn't have said both, or maybe I got the wrong context (look at eating shimp in the Bible, for example; one part says if you eat it you go to hell, another says it's fine, but if you don't have the context of what happens in-between, it'll just get confusing.)
What's a Hadith?
deFobbed14yrs
09/15/10, 07:40 PM
Yeah, I didn't say anything at all about what you wrote or where you got it from, and I'm asking questions because I honestly don't know, so let's cut down on the attacks, shall we?
I read something that I'm pretty sure was the Quran and it was about why the women must wear veils, that they symbolized a veil between women and Allah or something.
I'm not saying what you wrote isn't in there. I just know I read that somewhere that I'm pretty sure was the Quran, and I don't have the ability to look it up right now. It's not like the Quran couldn't have said both, or maybe I got the wrong context (look at eating shimp in the Bible, for example; one part says if you eat it you go to hell, another says it's fine, but if you don't have the context of what happens in-between, it'll just get confusing.)
What's a Hadith?
well buddy you seemed a bit hostile in your first sentence with the "keep looking" part.
there are two verses i hear in the Quran, could only find this one, it seems prety major, i'll ask my suitemate late.
Hadiths are saying by Mohammed that weren't put in the Quran but are used as examples. like if the Quran doesn't say anything about a certain subject then the scholars go to the hadiths to see if Mohammed said anything.
crackedthesky
09/15/10, 07:45 PM
well buddy you seemed a bit hostile in your first sentence with the "keep looking" part.
there are two verses i hear in the Quran, could only find this one, it seems prety major, i'll ask my suitemate late.
Hadiths are saying by Mohammed that weren't put in the Quran but are used as examples. like if the Quran doesn't say anything about a certain subject then the scholars go to the hadiths to see if Mohammed said anything.
I'll chock that up to most people on the Internet being irrationally hostile, but I had a genuine curiosity, and I'm on my iPod so I don't feel like looking it up, haha.
That may be what I read, I'm not sure.
The Indigo
09/15/10, 07:55 PM
But most Muslim women DON'T want to wear these.
And yeah, you're right. It doesn't make sense how I said that telling someone to not do something gives them more freedom... my bad. But I think you get my point.
Source?
crackedthesky
09/15/10, 07:56 PM
Well, for the life of me, I can't find it. Please forgive my ignorance on the issue, guys.
The only thing I can think is that I came across some alternate interpretation of the text designed to either subjugate women, or make it seem like women are subjegated under Islam.
The Indigo
09/15/10, 08:03 PM
The reason Muslim wear veils goes back to the Quran, if I recall it's basically women aren't good enough for Allah and have to be covered up. I'd wager France passed this as a way of forced circumvention of that ideal, perhaps an attempt to bring that aspect of Islam into a more "modern" setting.
Honestly, I'm really not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, there's an outrageous aspect of it. They're basically forcing people to go against their religion.
On the other, laws force people to go against religion all the time. The three big holy books all contain references to stoning people to death for not following the religion, but it's obviously not "outrageous" in any way for a country to pass a law saying you can't stone someone to death.
By that logic, couldn't such laws be extended when it comes to somewhat less severe things than stoning? Mormons aren't allowed to practice polygamy, for example. People aren't allowed to sacrifice sheep. Why draw the line at laws against forcing woman to be suppressed in public?
Like I said, I honestly don't know how to feel about this.
No. Laws are put in place (theoretically, lulz) to protect people's rights. We don't allow people to stone other people because the dude getting stoned would probably be against it. His right to life comes before your right to practice your religion. Your rights end where mine begin. Now, if the law outlawed men forcing women to wear burkas, it'd be OK with me, but the fact that women aren't even allowed to wear them willingly is wear the illegality of this law comes in. In most contemporary cases, women who wear the burka do so as a representation of total dedication to Allah. By banning that, you're removing those women's ability to express their religion in the way they choose.
So, yeah.
crackedthesky
09/15/10, 08:09 PM
No. Laws are put in place (theoretically, lulz) to protect people's rights. We don't allow people to stone other people because the dude getting stoned would probably be against it. His right to life comes before your right to practice your religion. Your rights end where mine begin. Now, if the law outlawed men forcing women to wear burkas, it'd be OK with me, but the fact that women aren't even allowed to wear them willingly is wear the illegality of this law comes in. In most contemporary cases, women who wear the burka do so as a representation of total dedication to Allah. By banning that, you're removing those women's ability to express their religion in the way they choose.
So, yeah.
I can agree with this. Basically, it sounds like they're using a nuke to get rid of an ant problem :/
mattyrocks
09/16/10, 06:30 AM
not. cool.
salt1384
09/16/10, 02:30 PM
Source?
Friends? Do you want their contact information, too?
Autobiographies (I read one on this specific subject in 5th grade, so excuse me if I don't remember the title)?
The Indigo
09/16/10, 03:01 PM
Friends? Do you want their contact information, too?
Autobiographies (I read one on this specific subject in 5th grade, so excuse me if I don't remember the title)?
Anecdotal evidence (logical fallacy) and an autobiography you read in fifth grade that expresses the views of one person? Do you have an actual statistic?
i don't think you'll be able to find any kind of statistic either saying muslim women want to or feel that they are forced to wear the veil. i think a lot of them feel one way, and a lot of them feel the other way. in any case, it's not a black and white situation.
The Indigo
09/16/10, 04:04 PM
i don't think you'll be able to find any kind of statistic either saying muslim women want to or feel that they are forced to wear the veil. i think a lot of them feel one way, and a lot of them feel the other way. in any case, it's not a black and white situation.
What I'm saying is that homegirl's logic is fundamentally flawed/a product of her Western culture.
paper halo
09/16/10, 05:47 PM
Nationalism is on the rise all over Europe, Sarkozy is just trying to win back popular support.
Mibabalou
09/16/10, 09:55 PM
Sigh.
Le sigh.
salt1384
09/17/10, 02:51 PM
Anecdotal evidence (logical fallacy) and an autobiography you read in fifth grade that expresses the views of one person? Do you have an actual statistic?
Logical fallacy? Excuse me? You wouldn't know considering the fact that you have no idea who these people are. Sure, an autobiography expresses the view of only one person, but look up book titles on this subject. I'm sure there are a ton of others.
You're being ignorant. I don't have to prove myself to you, so do the research yourself before "being sure" you're right.
The Indigo
09/17/10, 02:54 PM
Logical fallacy? Excuse me? You wouldn't know considering the fact that you have no idea who these people are. Sure, an autobiography expresses the view of only one person, but look up book titles on this subject. I'm sure there are a ton of others.
You're being ignorant. I don't have to prove myself to you, so do the research yourself before "being sure" you're right.
You're the one who made the outlandishly incorrect claim and are now getting pissed because you can't back it up with anything but a book you read in fifth grade. Surely if my argument is the ignorant one, you can provide some actual evidence to back up your claim.
salt1384
09/17/10, 03:14 PM
You're the one who made the outlandishly incorrect claim and are now getting pissed because you can't back it up with anything but a book you read in fifth grade. Surely if my argument is the ignorant one, you can provide some actual evidence to back up your claim.
You know what? You're right. I should have "real" evidence. But I don't. Obviously my Muslim friends who actually have to wear the veil don't know what they're talking about. Direct evidence doesn't seem to suffice.
You know what? You're right. I should have "real" evidence. But I don't. Obviously my Muslim friends who actually have to wear the veil don't know what they're talking about. Direct evidence doesn't seem to suffice.
Unless you're friends with the majority of the world's Muslim population then your logic is flawed and argument is groundless.
The Indigo
09/17/10, 06:53 PM
You know what? You're right. I should have "real" evidence. But I don't. Obviously my Muslim friends who actually have to wear the veil don't know what they're talking about. Direct evidence doesn't seem to suffice.
That's not direct evidence. It's anecdotal evidence. It is a logical fallacy and a groundless argument. Direct evidence would be, oh I don't know, that statistic I keep asking for.
Love As Arson
09/19/10, 11:34 AM
We all know how showing skin has liberated western women.
Poe-tryGirl
09/19/10, 11:37 AM
This is disgusting. How dare the French ban Muslim veils?
breakthesky
09/19/10, 01:00 PM
I really hate looking at people wearing Ed Hardy, because obviously they are being socially repressed by their peers. So can we ban that too?
ghostyouare
09/19/10, 01:47 PM
It's interesting that America is pretty much the only white western country that opposes this movement. I understand the reasoning behind why to get rid of it and I do support that but at the same time I feel for the other women that are neither forced/ brain washed/feared into it.
ghostyouare
09/19/10, 01:47 PM
This is disgusting. How dare the French ban Muslim veils?
How dare fundamentalist force women to wear them?
EasySkankin
09/19/10, 02:35 PM
I'm not 100% on this yet, but I feel like this is the wrong way to address a cultural issue. If i've got this right, this is a problem with the overwhelming patriarchal dominance in muslim culture. I don't think we as non-muslims can do anything effective about the issue other than acting as an example by treating women, muslim women in particular, as equals. Guys should start flirting with chicks in burqas. This kind of invasion of personal rights only creates more animosity between us and them, and ammo for their indoctrination programs in the middle east.
Lueda Alia
09/30/10, 07:34 PM
I've thought about this a lot since I made this thread and I've come to the conclusion that, despite my personal feelings on religion, I can't justify something like this. I mean, I would love for there to be no religions, but the fact of the matter is, religions do exist and while a part of me wants to say "Yeah! All countries should do this and be done with religion!" - I can't. I feel as though that would make me as close minded as the people I despise.
Thriftstoresuit
09/30/10, 07:57 PM
How dare fundamentalist force women to wear them?
I don't disagree, but the thing is that a lot of Muslim women aren't being forced into wearing them. Also, it's still completely illogical to claim that you're improving the rights of a group of people by literally taking them away.
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