is intoxication a crime? [Archive]

open mind

09/15/10, 01:39 AM

thread title pretty much covers it.....but i should probably make it clear that i mean simple intoxication.....operating shit has nothing to do with this......should you be able to get fucked out of your mind and not face consequences as long as you ain't hurting anyone or placing anyone in a dangerous situation?

edit:need to separate topic of thread from random rant about poor healthcare in the prison system.

one of my cellmates died directly underneath me.....the jail knew about his condition and knew his liver was failing.....and despite no history of violent crime and a charge of petty theft the state decided that it'd be best to see jimmy woods deteriorate in front of my eyes.....i wasn't there when he died, but i was there for the continual denial of care, the degradation of health, and most of the slow state execution of a man who was guilty of being poor, addicted, native, and desperate and nothing more.

zachff

09/15/10, 05:41 AM

Are you in jail? Where do you keep your cell phone to post on AP?

troubledbyinsects

09/15/10, 06:38 AM

what is the point of this thread?

sjb2k1

09/15/10, 07:30 AM

get as fucked as you want, on your own property.

Fox83

09/15/10, 07:36 AM

I'm so confused. Is this a continuation of a conversation that I don't know about?

inevitable

09/15/10, 07:38 AM

I think he's intoxicated...

ellie117

09/15/10, 07:38 AM

A friend of mine got stopped by the cops because he walked home drunk instead of driving home drunk. Being a drunk douchebag in public, sure the cops should get involved. But when someone knows they are too drunk to drive at 2 in the morning and does the right thing by walking home, getting pestered and almost getting fined by the police is ridiculous.

secretsociety92

09/15/10, 08:08 AM

It is your own fault if you get wasted, don't expect other people to feel intimidated when you are walking around like an idiot and expect to get away with it.

Scrandon

09/15/10, 08:15 AM

You believe your right to get intoxicated comes with a brand new liver courtesy of the State once you fuck up your own? Umm no.

Jake Gyllenhaal

09/15/10, 08:17 AM

I remember the OP went off on a rant before against the criminal justice system even though he didn't take responsibility for his own actions.

Miketheunicycle

09/15/10, 08:48 AM

if your walking home i don't see a problem. but if your being a drunken fool, being loud and obnoxious then yes law enforcement should get involved. if you're being reasonable so will the cop

Scrandon

09/15/10, 08:58 AM

<*)))><

09/15/10, 09:08 AM

What did you get arrest for?

Scrandon

09/15/10, 09:51 AM

aaaand Fishbones is here! Now this thread just went full retard.

hello299

09/15/10, 09:53 AM

if your walking home i don't see a problem. but if your being a drunken fool, being loud and obnoxious then yes law enforcement should get involved. if you're being reasonable so will the cop

Seems like the Police would only stop you if you were being loud and obnoxious. Very few drunk people can walk and act sober well.

Miketheunicycle

09/15/10, 11:42 AM

Seems like the Police would only stop you if you were being loud and obnoxious. Very few drunk people can walk and act sober well.
would it be different if you were wearing a backpack and out past town curfew? ...my town has a curfew, i don't know if that's normal?

hello299

09/15/10, 11:56 AM

would it be different if you were wearing a backpack and out past town curfew? ...my town has a curfew, i don't know if that's normal?

Well I have never been in a town with a curfew so I have no idea how that would work.

PunkIsHome

09/15/10, 12:06 PM

clearly a majority of the posters would agree that getting fucked up as long as you're not bothering anyone is okay. however, popular opinion doesn't always hold its ground against legal guidelines that have been forged by legal precedent in previous occurences

rhinitus

09/15/10, 02:17 PM

Why would they stop the guy if he wasn't being a drunk douchebag?

mehhhhh i don't think this questions is as valid as you might think. cops will harass you if you're walking home by yourself

mcm1610

09/15/10, 02:19 PM

What are the police like in Chicago? I've walked home drunker than I wished I got numerous times and have never, ever, ever been stopped by cops, even when walking right by them. This spans three countries and probably 7 different cities.

open mind

09/15/10, 02:37 PM

I remember the OP went off on a rant before against the criminal justice system even though he didn't take responsibility for his own actions.

what?

open mind

09/15/10, 02:40 PM

You believe your right to get intoxicated comes with a brand new liver courtesy of the State once you fuck up your own? Umm no.

if the state has you in custody and (obviously) isn't allowing you to seek treatment on your own then yes, the state should have to take care of you.....neglecting to do so is a slow form of murder.

zion the lion

09/15/10, 02:44 PM

Are you in jail? Where do you keep your cell phone to post on AP?

I thought they had computers in jail...you know, to get your law degree and stuff.

secretsociety92

09/15/10, 02:46 PM

if the state has you in custody and (obviously) isn't allowing you to seek treatment on your own then yes, the state should have to take care of you.....neglecting to do so is a slow form of murder.
How about you don't do at all and then there won't be a problem. Why should sensible people who know their limits have to foot the bill for idiots who don't?

open mind

09/15/10, 02:53 PM

How about you don't do at all and then there won't be a problem. Why should sensible people who know their limits have to foot the bill for idiots who don't?

obviously that would be the best route to go, but that's a bit like wishing for world peace. it'd be nice if people didn't feel the need to get high and the world was united in peace and love, but since it ain't happening on it's own we should tackle the problems that we can.

secretsociety92

09/15/10, 03:01 PM

obviously that would be the best route to go, but that's a bit like wishing for world peace. it'd be nice if people didn't feel the need to get high and the world was united in peace and love, but since it ain't happening on it's own we should tackle the problems that we can.
There is a big difference between getting high and destroying your liver by binge drinking. Also if people are forced to live with the consequences then nobody will do the idiotic thing for a second time.

open mind

09/15/10, 03:07 PM

There is a big difference between getting high and destroying your liver by binge drinking. Also if people are forced to live with the consequences then nobody will do the idiotic thing for a second time.

yeah, there is.

hmm.....alcohol kills hundreds of thousands of people a year in the u.s.....it's a good thing that'll all stop soon.X-)

zion the lion

09/15/10, 03:08 PM

There is a big difference between getting high and destroying your liver by binge drinking. Also if people are forced to live with the consequences then nobody will do the idiotic thing for a second time.

Well, not really. I mean there's a reason that people decide to get high, and there's a reason that someone decides to drink. Both can be done in excess, but people probably have the same reason for binging on those things as they do for doing just doing it in moderation.

open mind

09/15/10, 03:15 PM

Are you in jail? Where do you keep your cell phone to post on AP?

no, not in jail and haven't been for years.

the death of my cellmate occurred 5-6 years ago....not sure why i brought it up really. the anti-biotics and steroids i'm on to get rid of a bad case of bronchitis has been making me kind of loopy this week.

x togepi x

09/15/10, 03:21 PM

You believe your right to get intoxicated comes with a brand new liver courtesy of the State once you fuck up your own? Umm no.

once again, you're talking about shit that you don't understand!

it's hard to get a transplant if you have a history of drug/alcohol abuse, even if you have the money to pay for it.

Scrandon

09/15/10, 03:29 PM

once again, you're talking about shit that you don't understand!

it's hard to get a transplant if you have a history of drug/alcohol abuse, even if you have the money to pay for it.

I know, he was acting like he expected the prison to finance the procedure.

open mind

09/15/10, 03:36 PM

I know, he was acting like he expected the prison to finance the procedure.

if you're in state custody, i think the state has an obligation to provide proper care.

Jake Gyllenhaal

09/15/10, 03:37 PM

what?

Back in your "1984" thread (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=73052832#post73052 832)

open mind

09/15/10, 03:38 PM

Back in your "1984" thread (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=73052832#post73052 832)

where did i deny responsibility for my actions?

Jake Gyllenhaal

09/15/10, 03:42 PM

where did i deny responsibility for my actions?

Perhaps I shouldn't have used that wording, but you came off like your rights have been infringed but I said that when you commit a crime, some of your rights are taken away from you.

open mind

09/15/10, 03:46 PM

Perhaps I shouldn't have used that wording, but you came off like your rights have been infringed but I said that when you commit a crime, some of your rights are taken away from you.
yeah, bad wording. of course you lose some rights, and up to a certain point it's only fair....but i think the criminal justice system has taken it to far.

Jake Gyllenhaal

09/15/10, 03:47 PM

of course you lose some rights, and up to a certain point it's only fair....but i think the criminal justice system has taken it to far.

Do you regret your past actions? (I still have no idea what you were convicted for)

Simulcast

09/15/10, 03:48 PM

I think we should export our prisoners to Siberia, and pay Russia to house them. We'd have shorter and much more effective prison sentences.

open mind

09/15/10, 03:54 PM

Do you regret your past actions? (I still have no idea what you were convicted for)

yes, i do.....which is why i took issue with your characterization of me.
the mental fallout of that night has resulted in years of depression (and a few suicide attempts) that medication had no effect on (tried effexor, zoloft, welbutrin, abilify, seraquel, geodon, lithium, and a few other things). someday i may completely forgive myself, but that day has yet to come.

open mind

09/15/10, 04:08 PM

I think we should export our prisoners to Siberia, and pay Russia to house them. We'd have shorter and much more effective prison sentences.

we kind of do that already. alaska, for example, sends many of their prisoners to colorado now, and we sent many to arizona for years.

Simulcast

09/15/10, 04:13 PM

we kind of do that already. alaska, for example, sends many of their prisoners to colorado now, and we sent many to arizona for years.

Yes, but I'm speaking of removal from the United States completely. Total isolation outside of the prison walls. It would solve the rampant gang problems happening in places like New Mexico. Gang leaders still command their gangs from inside prison, negating the intended effect of removing them from the streets.

open mind

09/15/10, 04:16 PM

Yes, but I'm speaking of removal from the United States completely. Total isolation outside of the prison walls. It would solve the rampant gang problems happening in places like New Mexico. Gang leaders still command their gangs from inside prison, negating the intended effect of removing them from the streets.

are you a big fan of extraordinary rendition?

Simulcast

09/15/10, 04:21 PM

are you a big fan of extraordinary rendition?

If you are attempting to get me to advocate torture, it was a nice try. I do enjoy entertaining the idea of sending our criminals to facilities in places like Siberia though. It is very unpleasant there, and though I believe those criminals should be entitled to basic rights, like not starving or freezing to death, a few years in some hard country would go a long way. It would also function as a better deterrent than our current system.

open mind

09/15/10, 04:26 PM

Steiny29

09/15/10, 04:26 PM

I think we should export our prisoners to Siberia, and pay Russia to house them. We'd have shorter and much more effective prison sentences.

Thanks Red Foreman

Simulcast

09/15/10, 04:26 PM

Thanks Red Foreman

Funny guy, but he has no bearing on my thoughts.

Steiny29

09/15/10, 04:29 PM

Funny guy, but he has no bearing on my thoughts.

He just had the same suggestion:
1st offense: 5 years in Siberia
2nd offense: 10 years in Siberia
3rd offense: Believe you me, there is no 3rd offense

Simulcast

09/15/10, 04:31 PM

He just had the same suggestion:
1st offense: 5 years in Siberia
2nd offense: 10 years in Siberia
3rd offense: Believe you me, there is no 3rd offense

Haha. Well, that fits his character quite nicely.

Simulcast

09/15/10, 04:35 PM

i fail to see how this approach would rehabilitate anyone though.

I won't pretend to know the in's and out's of prison psychology, so I really can't tell you definitively. I think it would be better than the current system though. Maybe you can tell me though, does the U.S. prison system have a high rate of rehabilitation? Honest question, as I'm not to well versed in this subject.

open mind

09/15/10, 04:38 PM

I won't pretend to know the in's and out's of prison psychology, so I really can't tell you definitively. I think it would be better than the current system though. Maybe you can tell me though, does the U.S. prison system have a high rate of rehabilitation? Honest question, as I'm not to well versed in this subject.

we've got a horrible record of rehabilitation. prison in the u.s. is mostly a revolving door....my take on why that is is that the conditions are much to violent and that there is little work with teaching inmates the skills needed to reintegrate into society upon release.

zion the lion

09/15/10, 04:40 PM

If you are attempting to get me to advocate torture, it was a nice try. I do enjoy entertaining the idea of sending our criminals to facilities in places like Siberia though. It is very unpleasant there, and though I believe those criminals should be entitled to basic rights, like not starving or freezing to death, a few years in some hard country would go a long way. It would also function as a better deterrent than our current system.

I dont think it would really help. I dont know how to explain this without giving examples, but my brothers mom was in jail for attempted murder for a long time, while she was in there, she got her shit together while she was in there and decided that she seriously wouldnt do anything to end up in jail again. During the past 18 years, my dad has been in jail so many times that I've lost count, even after he had his first kid (me) he didnt make some sort of resolution to just stay out of jail. Everyone who knows him knows that he'll just be in and out of jail for the rest of his life.

The whole Siberia thing would help my brothers mom, and I think thats only because people like her already knew that they didnt want to be in jail anymore...the people like my dad wouldnt get any help from that kind of thing.

Posthardcore

09/15/10, 04:41 PM

Been arrested 3 times for this, two last times were stupid. The first one I can understand why.

Simulcast

09/15/10, 04:42 PM

we've got a horrible record of rehabilitation. prison in the u.s. is mostly a revolving door....my take on why that is is that the conditions are much to violent and that there is little work with teaching inmates the skills needed to reintegrate into society.

That was my basic conception of it.

I think my idea could have a hand in preventing this. Prisons would have to become a lot more rigid, with a lot less downtime and socializing. As far as re-intergation... I really don't know. How do you reform violent criminals?

Simulcast

09/15/10, 04:44 PM

I dont think it would really help. I dont know how to explain this without giving examples, but my brothers mom was in jail for attempted murder for a long time, while she was in there, she got her shit together while she was in there and decided that she seriously wouldnt do anything to end up in jail again. During the past 18 years, my dad has been in jail so many times that I've lost count, even after he had his first kid (me) he didnt make some sort of resolution to just stay out of jail. Everyone who knows him knows that he'll just be in and out of jail for the rest of his life.

The whole Siberia thing would help my brothers mom, and I think thats only because people like her already knew that they didnt want to be in jail anymore...the people like my dad wouldnt get any help from that kind of thing.

Maybe jail isn't such a big deal for him because in some ways it's not that difficult to cope with?

open mind

09/15/10, 04:49 PM

That was my basic conception of it.

I think my idea could have a hand in preventing this. Prisons would have to become a lot more rigid, with a lot less downtime and socializing. As far as re-intergation... I really don't know. How do you reform violent criminals?

what would be keeping the prisoners so busy? slave labor?

most people who are in prison are not there because they committed a violent crime....and many violent crimes are crimes of passion that the victimizer immediately regrets committing.....but the hardcore sociopaths are mostly beyond help due to the relative infancy of neuroscience and a lack of a desire to change.

yves.

09/15/10, 04:52 PM

Simulcast

09/15/10, 04:53 PM

what would be keeping the prisoners so busy? slave labor?

most people who are in prison are not there because they committed a violent crime....and many violent crimes are crimes of passion that the victimizer immediately regrets committing.....but the hardcore sociopaths are mostly beyond help due to the relative infancy of neuroscience.

Yes, slave labor up to their eyeballs. :rolleyes:

Manual labor, yes. Fun-tivities if you will. Nothing torturous, nothing incredibly severe.

If most of the people are not sociopaths, then the possibility of doing time in Siberia might go a long ways toward preventing them from committing those crimes. If they do end up there, I doubt many would risk a return visit.

open mind

09/15/10, 04:56 PM

Yes, slave labor up to their eyeballs. :rolleyes:

Manual labor, yes. Fun-tivities if you will. Nothing torturous, nothing incredibly severe.

If most of the people are not sociopaths, then the possibility of doing time in Siberia might go a long ways toward preventing them from committing those crimes. If they do end up there, I doubt many would risk a return visit.

being forced into manual labor is the definition of slave labor isn't it?
if you don't supply inmates with the skills needed to be a productive member of society they'll end up back in prison with or without a severe justice system though.

Simulcast

09/15/10, 04:57 PM

if you don't supply inmates with the skills needed to be a productive member of society they'll end up back in prison with or without a severe justice system though.

Trade skills can be part of that labor.

Simulcast

09/15/10, 05:00 PM

being forced into manual labor is the definition of slave labor isn't it?

I don't really count stamping license plates as slave labor.

saysmydoctor

09/15/10, 05:00 PM

Maybe jail isn't such a big deal for him because in some ways it's not that difficult to cope with?
Or because it's a way to escape his daughter.

open mind

09/15/10, 05:02 PM

Trade skills can be part of that labor.

just part? if rehabilitation is the goal i think all of it should be teaching practical job skills. it couldn't all be trade skills because you'd end up with an excess of tradesmen unable to find work.

I don't really count stamping license plates as slave labor.

why not?

Scrandon

09/15/10, 05:03 PM

A sellout would say that.

open mind

09/15/10, 05:09 PM

haha, i guess i deserve that.

zion the lion

09/15/10, 05:27 PM

Maybe jail isn't such a big deal for him because in some ways it's not that difficult to cope with?

So you think treating him like a slave would help? Instead of getting at the root of why he does what he does and nipping it in the bud, you'd rather just spend the money to treat him (and other people like him) like shit?

Or because it's a way to escape his daughter.

Ha-larious.

theguy77

09/15/10, 05:45 PM

public intoxication on marijuana is seriously not a big deal at all, on alcohol it's pretty much unavoidable because they gotta get home from bars somehow but for the most part it's not thaaat big a deal either as long as they're using public transit or not the one behind the wheel. but just the other day some customers jacked up on other drugs thought it'd be cool to start a fight and throw a chair in the starbucks i work at, so there's definitely circumstances where it does involve the safety of civilians, which validate restricting intoxication from certain drugs within the walls of your own home.

foisol

09/15/10, 05:48 PM

Why would they stop the guy if he wasn't being a drunk douchebag?

In this case police corruption/dishonesty would probably be involved because frankly who is the judge going to believe? The officer or the drunk guy?

zion the lion

09/15/10, 06:23 PM

Scrandon

09/15/10, 07:11 PM

In this case police corruption/dishonesty would probably be involved because frankly who is the judge going to believe? The officer or the drunk guy?

I'm more inclined to believe that the guy downplayed his drunkenness in his retelling of the story over the police stopping random people to get their jollies. Sure, I know it happens, but the latter case is less likely.

Simulcast

09/15/10, 07:32 PM

Or because it's a way to escape his daughter.

lol, wow.

Simulcast

09/15/10, 07:49 PM

just part? if rehabilitation is the goal i think all of it should be teaching practical job skills. it couldn't all be trade skills because you'd end up with an excess of tradesmen unable to find work.

Rehabilitation is A goal. Punishment is another. You don't go to prison to learn a trade. You go because you need to be punished for the crimes you committed.

why not?

Well, I'm paying for those people to be in jail. They get clothes and food and water. It's not asking a whole lot to get something out of it. Prison is also a form of punishment. Slavery is not really considered a form of punishment for something you've done wrong ( at least not anymore. That was the case maybe 200 years ago in the ancient world, but not so much today. Criminals owe a debt to society, where as slaves do not.

theguy77

09/15/10, 07:52 PM

Not related, but how is it working at starbucks? Do you get free stuff?

it's pretty cool, and yeah i get to make myself a free drink any time i want, and we throw out a lot of food if it isn't purchased like THAT day, so when i work a closing shift i get to take home like muffins and cinnamon rolls and shit.

theguy77

09/15/10, 07:54 PM

Simulcast

09/15/10, 08:04 PM

sweet avatar man

Thank you. I can't get enough of that album, or that band.

theguy77

09/15/10, 08:08 PM

Thank you. I can't get enough of that album, or that band.

total shame they broke up, cant believe i missed the last tour.

Simulcast

09/15/10, 08:10 PM

total shame they broke up, cant believe i missed the last tour.

I saw them in Hollywood on that tour. It was beautiful. Heard Jakob too for the first time at that show, and now I love them as well.

whiterussian

09/16/10, 07:29 AM

not to further derail the thread, but I am never going to forgive myself for missing them in june.

regarding, original question - I don't think just being drunk should ever be a crime. But people that are drunk become stupid and each person acts and reacts differently. So maybe some preventive disincentives should be in order, at least in public. Although I would not like that.
as to the self-harm it causes, the prison should have had the prisoner on a waiting list. Maybe last on the list (also depending on how much time he had to do - if he wasn't supposed to be there that long, he should have had a better chance to get the trasnplant.
As to the expense, it's not pleasant, but everybody's supposed to have their health. Even when LL Cool J was on House and was going to be executed, remember???

foisol

09/17/10, 02:17 PM

I'm more inclined to believe that the guy downplayed his drunkenness in his retelling of the story over the police stopping random people to get their jollies. Sure, I know it happens, but the latter case is less likely.

I don't know how it is in San Diego, but here in New York City police officers have to reach a quota of tickets and arrests. Hence, there are several cases of overdoing it on the officers part. Not to blame them entirely, since it is the system that is horrible and the officer has to pay his bills, just like the rest of us. However, in keeping up with what the original poster was discussing, law enforcement should, in my honest opinion, be paying more attention to other much more heinous and serious crimes, other than a person being wasted.

open mind

10/01/10, 07:42 PM

Rehabilitation is A goal. Punishment is another. You don't go to prison to learn a trade. You go because you need to be punished for the crimes you committed.

Well, I'm paying for those people to be in jail. They get clothes and food and water. It's not asking a whole lot to get something out of it. Prison is also a form of punishment. Slavery is not really considered a form of punishment for something you've done wrong ( at least not anymore. That was the case maybe 200 years ago in the ancient world, but not so much today. Criminals owe a debt to society, where as slaves do not.

i doubt if the vast majority of inmates really deserve to be punished much but yes, prison is a punishment.......the psychological effects of being forced to stay in a small area with no privacy, the constant threat of violence, shit medical care, poor diet, people who go out of their way to be pricks running your life, and putting up with all the policies designed to de-personalize you for days, months, years, decades, and entire lives seems like punishment enough without the added insult of slavery.

i don't believe all criminals owe a debt to society (those caught up in the drug war and it's side effects are a good example) and i think there are a large number of innocent people in jail that deserve zero punishment but saying that slavery is not a form of punishment is crap because countless cultures have use/used it as such.

slaves were given clothes, food, and water doesn't mean they weren't slaves.

slavery was abolished in this country. that means (at least theoretically) it's not allowed.......under any circumstances.