On this, the fourth of July...

[BustaNutz]

So I’d like to preface this by saying, happy 4th, and that this is great country and I’m glad I live here.

Now let me give you my opinions on a few things. First of all I find it intriguing that (after watching the fireworks tonight) Lee Greenwood’s “Proud to Be an American” evokes more reaction and emotion than the National Anthem. In almost every country the national anthem inspires pride in that country’s citizens, it’s a thing to be honored and revered. Hear it doesn’t have the same effect. I think this could be because we play it so much (at every event we have) and it gets monotonous after a while.

Also, after listening to all the talk about Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan, my friends and I got into some debate. We came to kind of an agreement (being fairly like-minded) that should their be an inquiry into our intelligence agencies, and should they find that agents were pressured (by the powers that be) to find positive results, and subsequently we don’t locate any weapons, that Bush should be tried for war crimes. That won’t happen for a few reasons. First we’re not a part of the ICC so they can’t prosecute him. And even if they could nobody has the guts to do so. But I think that, should they find the aforementioned circumstances to be true, that he will have committed a war crime.

Also I think with possible actions in Liberia looming we should stop and consider. Rome and England’s empires fell when they stretched themselves too thin. Now don’t read too much into that comparison, we’re very much different from them, but if we stretch ourselves too thin we’re going be more vulnerable. Now, this neither means I support or oppose action Liberia it is just a statement. And despite the fact we may say we’re too strong to fall in the same fashion as Rome and England, bear in mind they said the same thing.

This is just opinions, it’s meant to spark debate, so please be respectful and intelligent in your responses, and I’m interested to hear some open-minded intelligent perspectives from people with differing viewpoints.

[yeat182]

i agree that there should be inquiries into the intelligence agencies, and someone should be held acountable if they lied or gave false information, but i don't think bush should be held for war crimes at all. stopping an evil and brutal dictator isn't a war crime, but yes, if it turns out that there were no WMD's, those responsible should be held acountable.

as for Liberia, i think that if most of Europe had a problem with us going into Iraq, then they should step up to the plate and help out Liberia. if they aren't willing to do anything, then they should keep their mouths shut. I think that helping out would be a good idea, humanitarily speaking, and i know that there is no particular national interest in Liberia, but I think that the hypocrisy of Europe will be shown in its true light, either they want america to do what they want, or they claim we are dictitorial and imperialistic. no matter what though, it should not be a UN supported action, NATO or a coalition of the willing only.

[Ronin]

I watched the fireworks on NBC last night, and all I have to say is

...your country is crazy

It was like an hour of fireworks (which is fine) combined with EXTENSIVE self-congratulatory dialogue voiced over the picture. Yes, you live in a great, powerful nation, but methinks the nationalism is reaching frightening heights

[kidinthecorner]

Originally posted by Ronin
I watched the fireworks on NBC last night, and all I have to say is

...your country is crazy

It was like an hour of fireworks (which is fine) combined with EXTENSIVE self-congratulatory dialogue voiced over the picture. Yes, you live in a great, powerful nation, but methinks the nationalism is reaching frightening heights Ya... some people take this too far. The announcer where I was, at the University of Buffalo, was going on and on about "the greatest country in the world" and I don't really know about that one. Sure we have a lot of freedoms and a big military, but we're behind on education, healthcare, etc.

And when fireworks are on TV, they should shut the fuck up. No one wants to listen to them talk on and on about nothing. They just talk so you know they're there.

[Charlito Cafe]

If there aren't any WMDs, someone's gonna take a serious fall. Prolly not Bush, he has enough underlings to blame it on, but someone's gonna get ass-fucked....hard.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by Ronin
I watched the fireworks on NBC last night, and all I have to say is

...your country is crazy

It was like an hour of fireworks (which is fine) combined with EXTENSIVE self-congratulatory dialogue voiced over the picture. Yes, you live in a great, powerful nation, but methinks the nationalism is reaching frightening heights

how is shoting fireworks and having a good time, once a year, crazy???? and nationalism isn't a bad thing, unless it is done to extremes, which i feel has yet to trully happen in american.........

[Ronin]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
how is shoting fireworks and having a good time, once a year, crazy???? and nationalism isn't a bad thing, unless it is done to extremes, which i feel has yet to trully happen in american.........

No no, the fireworks and happiness is fine, I'm all about being proud of my country, and I expect Americans to be the same.

But this was way way way way over the top

Did you see it? I'm talking about the NBC "special" or whatever it was, Carson Daly was on it.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by Ronin
No no, the fireworks and happiness is fine, I'm all about being proud of my country, and I expect Americans to be the same.

But this was way way way way over the top

Did you see it? I'm talking about the NBC "special" or whatever it was, Carson Daly was on it.

no i didn't see the show your talking about, i was at a baseball game (HOW american is that), but i still doubt it could have been that bad....................oh ya and i would personal.ly never watch anything with carson on it...........

[Charlito Cafe]

Nationalism is bad in all cases. It just leads to blind hatred. We should consider ourselves humans and citizens of the world before we consider ourselves citizens of any particular country. The "America kicks ass!" attitude is what makes so many people hate us.

[Zack Attack]

i think patriotism is fine, the thing i dont like is how just because 9/11 happened every fucker is mr. "gung ho america is the best fuck the rest". its startin to piss me off. there are flags everywhere, its like a big fucking trend. end rant.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
Nationalism is bad in all cases. It just leads to blind hatred. We should consider ourselves humans and citizens of the world before we consider ourselves citizens of any particular country. The "America kicks ass!" attitude is what makes so many people hate us.

nationalism is a good thing, unless it is done to extreme (much like anything else).......by your same example i can say that socialism and comunism is bad in all cases, because in a few instances it has lead to oppression, murder, and even "blind hatred"..............but this would be basing the hole idea on a few bad examples............which is what your doing.......

ps.......for me, im a kansan first, an american second and a world citizen last.............

[Ronin]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
nationalism is a good thing, unless it is done to extreme (much like anything else).......by your same example i can say that socialism and comunism is bad in all cases, because in a few instances it has lead to oppression, murder, and even "blind hatred"..............but this would be basing the hole idea on a few bad examples............which is what your doing.......

ps.......for me, im a kansan first, an american second and a world citizen last.............

Well said

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
nationalism is a good thing, unless it is done to extreme (much like anything else).......by your same example i can say that socialism and comunism is bad in all cases, because in a few instances it has lead to oppression, murder, and even "blind hatred"..............but this would be basing the hole idea on a few bad examples............which is what your doing.......

ps.......for me, im a kansan first, an american second and a world citizen last.............

Ummmmm.....communism is bad in pretty much every case dude. The Communist Manifesto was way too idealistic, and communism can't work. Secondly, communism provides only for our basic needs, making sure everyone is fed and "equal". It leaves us longing for something more than that, which is why communism will never work due to it's natural conflict with human nature. As for socialism, pretty much the same goes just in a watered down version. There's a little capitalist inside us all, but instead of satisfying that need for somehthing bigger with money, we should satisfy it with intellectual pursuits that ordinarily aren't allowed in a communist society.

What are the benefits of nationalism? Please tell me. I can't think of any. All it does is create cultural division, and hate. Loyalty to country...please that's just brainwashing to insure the citizenry carries out the government's interests.

[Matthew]

I don't need to be a global citizen,
'Cuz I'm not that nationality,
I'm a member of a growing populace,
we enforced our popularity
Then it seemed to be a fire burning
and there are things that drag us down,
but there's a power and a vital presence
that's lurking all around
we've got the American Jesus
see him on the interstate,
we've got the American Jesus
he helped build the president's estate
I feel sorry for the earth's population
'cuz so few live in the U.S.A,
at least the foreigners can copy our morality,
they can visit but they cannot stay,
only precious few can garner our prosperity,
and it makes us walk with confidence,
we've got a place to go when we die
and the architect resides right here
we've got the American Jesus
see him on the interstate
we've got the American Jesus
overwhelming millions everyday

he's the farmer barren fields,
the force the army wields,
the expressions in the faces
of the starving children,
the power of the man.
the fuel that drives the clan,
the vengeance and the motive
of the murderer
he's the preacher on TV,
the false sincerity,
the form letters that written by
the big computers,
he's the nuclear bombs,
and the kids with no moms
and I'm fearful that
he's inside me.

We've got the American Jesus
see him on the interstate
We've got the American Jesus
exercising his authority
We've got the American Jesus
see him on the interstate
We've got the American Jesus
overwhelming millions everyday, Yeah!

One nation under God

[Ronin]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
Ummmmm.....communism is bad in pretty much every case dude. The Communist Manifesto was way too idealistic, and communism can't work. Secondly, communism provides only for our basic needs, making sure everyone is fed and "equal". It leaves us longing for something more than that, which is why communism will never work due to it's natural conflict with human nature. As for socialism, pretty much the same goes just in a watered down version. There's a little capitalist inside us all, but instead of satisfying that need for somehthing bigger with money, we should satisfy it with intellectual pursuits that ordinarily aren't allowed in a communist society.

What are the benefits of nationalism? Please tell me. I can't think of any. All it does is create cultural division, and hate. Loyalty to country...please that's just brainwashing to insure the citizenry carries out the government's interests.

Communism is not bad, it's inherently a good thing, it appeals to the humane part of us. It's been used to justify atrocities, but that's not Communism. There's nothing wrong with being idealistic, in fact, I think it's a good character trait as long as you aren't blinded by it.

Socialism isn't watered down Communism, it's the step before Communism. Just like Capitalism is the step before Socialism, and I don't think Capitalism is watered down Socialism.

Intellectual pursuits are "allowed" in a Communist society. Soviet Russia wasn't Communist, but to use them as an example, they produced some of the finest physicists the world has ever seen. Besides that, in real Communism, intellectual pursits are encouraged, just not economic pursuits.

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your country. Every Swiss person I've ever met has been proud of their country, and how many wars have been fought in the name of Switzerland in the past 200 years? Nationalism gives cohesion to a country, which is a good thing. People have a psychological need to be a part of a group, and being proud of your country is good for you. Nationalism is only brainwashing if you're stupid.

Nationalism is OK, but xenophobia is what happens when it gets out of control.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by Ronin

Nationalism is only brainwashing if you're stupid.



Unfortunately, there are a lot more stupid people then there are smart ones, making it really easy to get brainwashed.

Good points about communism, but I still think that Soviet Russia took advantage of the intellectual pursuits using nationalism, ("If you really loved your country you'd....") and used the intellectuals to bolster their arsenal. Knowledge belongs to the global community, and nationalism can get in the way of it being spread.

You also talk a lot about "real communism". Because human nature inherently desires something more than we are initially alloted, eventually members of a communist society will desire more than what they are alloted, more than their equal lives, and it will collapse into capitalism again. Sure idealism can be good, but communism asks us to change human nature, change our desire for something more, to advance out position. Humans are unique because they are aware of their mortality, and so they desire to make something out of their lives instead of living in a "utopia" where their basic needs are met. Sure that would work with animals who only desire food, water and shelter to be met, but humanity also has other needs.

[Ronin]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
Unfortunately, there are a lot more stupid people then there are smart ones, making it really easy to get brainwashed.

Good points about communism, but I still think that Soviet Russia took advantage of the intellectual pursuits using nationalism, ("If you really loved your country you'd....") and used the intellectuals to bolster their arsenal. Knowledge belongs to the global community, and nationalism can get in the way of it being spread.

You also talk a lot about "real communism". Because human nature inherently desires something more than we are initially alloted, eventually members of a communist society will desire more than what they are alloted, more than their equal lives, and it will collapse into capitalism again. Sure idealism can be good, but communism asks us to change human nature, change our desire for something more, to advance out position. Humans are unique because they are aware of their mortality, and so they desire to make something out of their lives instead of living in a "utopia" where their basic needs are met. Sure that would work with animals who only desire food, water and shelter to be met, but humanity also has other needs.

Soviet intellectuals also took advantage of Commuism to further their studies

"Yes Comrade Stalin, I want to study quantum mechanics so that we can improve our atomic bombs.....riiiiiiiiiiight"

And about the human nature thing...

I'm of the mindset that "human nature" is essentially eating, drinking, sleeping, and procreating. That's all we're "meant" to do (and some psychology studies have supported this but its obviously not the final word)

Yeah, all of us want more, but that's because we've been socialized that way. People in 3rd world countries can look at the US and say "I want that". People in the USSR looked at the US and said "We want THAT". But what if you grew up in a world in which everyone was equal? There wouldn't be anything to want. Why would you want to be better than everyone else? What would you have to gain if nobody else cares about status or possessions? How would you go about amassing money if there was simply no profit to be made?

I realize that this is hypothetical, because we probably wont ever see a society like this. But still, I can argue it...

The greed inherent in capitalism is why Communism fails, and it's too far ingrained in the world's psyche to get rid of easily.

[Charlito Cafe]

Ok, I concede that in a hypothetical sense, if we burned all literature that suggested non-communist ideas, got rid of all movies that portrayed people being better than one another, got a bunch of infants and idealists together and killed everyone else we could start over in a perfect utopian communism. I'm not seeing that happening any time soon, if ever.

[Charlito Cafe]

And I think we left the nationalism thing in the dust. I'm still not persuaded how it can yield positive results. Not neutral results like Switzerland, positive ones. If people need to be part of a group, they can belong to humanity. Devotion to a piece of land or flag just creates division in humanity.

[Ronin]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
And I think we left the nationalism thing in the dust. I'm still not persuaded how it can yield positive results. Not neutral results like Switzerland, positive ones. If people need to be part of a group, they can belong to humanity. Devotion to a piece of land or flag just creates division in humanity.

It also creates diversity, which I think is a good thing

I hope nobody takes that and goes off on affirmative action, all of these threads end up on the same 4 topics

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by Ronin
It also creates diversity, which I think is a good thing

I hope nobody takes that and goes off on affirmative action, all of these threads end up on the same 4 topics

Hahahha. Diversity can come without nationalism, can't it?

The hahahahah is at the latter part of the reply.

[trogdor]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
if we burned all literature that suggested non-communist ideas, got rid of all movies that portrayed people being better than one another, got a bunch of infants and idealists together and killed everyone else we could start over in a perfect utopian communism. I'm not seeing that happening any time soon, if ever.

The last time Pol Pot did something like that it didn't work so well! Personally I think that even if you initially rid yourself of all the 'counterrevolutionary elements' they would come back after a generation or so.. Because people simply aren't capable of being confined in a communist society. It MAY be possible, but it would require extreme amounts of propaganda and nationalism.

[evil zach]

Communism just ins't possible. It requires humans to achieve perfection which isn't possible. While I belive that humans are innately good, I by no means belive they are perfect or capable of perfection. And before anybody says that anarchism is a utopian society, it isn't. I won't go to far into that though because its not what were discussing at the moment. Were discussing nationalism. As you can guess, I am oppoed to nationalism. I didn't choose to be born in Canada, so why should I be proud of the fact that I live here? Maybe if I immigrated I would feel diferent, but then again, many of the leading american anarchists and anti-nationalists during the labour union movement were immigrents. To say that one country is better then another, or that its the best is just ignorant. I'm against nationalism because it can so easly lead to hatred. It creaste a mentality of "us against them" and I have a strong belife in unity.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe

What are the benefits of nationalism? Please tell me. I can't think of any. All it does is create cultural division, and hate. Loyalty to country...please that's just brainwashing to insure the citizenry carries out the government's interests.

how about this.......why don't you show me how having PRIDE (or loyality) in my country and state..........causes me to feel any hatred?

see basing your arguements on exaggerations.......does not prove a point, it never will, you can not base the actions of a few on the ideas of the many............

also i could just as easily say that you are brainwashed by the left.......one world order/ or society........would only lead to murder, war, oppression, racism, lack of power, an elite group of rulers, and even BLIND HATRED...........it would never cause world peace...........

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
how about this.......why don't you show me how having PRIDE (or loyality) in my country and state..........causes me to feel any hatred?

see basing your arguements on exaggerations.......does not prove a point, it never will, you can not base the actions of a few on the ideas of the many............

also i could just as easily say that you are brainwashed by the left.......one world order/ or society........would only lead to murder, war, oppression, racism, lack of power, an elite group of rulers, and even BLIND HATRED...........it would never cause world peace...........

Nationalism breeds diversity amongst nations and peoples.... Diversity breeds hate. When people consider themselves to be better and different than another group of people, there will always be conflict. The Jews think they are better than the Palestinians. The Palestinians think they are better than the Jews. Hitler thought that blond hair and blue eyes were better than anything else. And Americans in this day and age have developed an omnipotent mentality that rivals the Beatles (we are greater than God himself)

And let me get this straight. You say that one world order or society will be the downfall of mankind; then why all the shit talking on communism and socialism? Or is Capitolism so infalable that it would never breed atrocious deeds like murder, poverty, or opression?

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by The Nephilm

And let me get this straight. You say that one world order or society will be the downfall of mankind; then why all the shit talking on communism and socialism? Or is Capitolism so infalable that it would never breed atrocious deeds like murder, poverty, or opression?


i dont understand what your asking in your first point?.........as for capitalism not being perfect, i wouldn't disagree with that in any way, but i personally, and the point here is personlly, find less faults with it then i do communism and socialism.........

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by The Nephilm
Nationalism breeds diversity amongst nations and peoples.... Diversity breeds hate. When people consider themselves to be better and different than another group of people, there will always be conflict. The Jews think they are better than the Palestinians. The Palestinians think they are better than the Jews. Hitler thought that blond hair and blue eyes were better than anything else. And Americans in this day and age have developed an omnipotent mentality that rivals the Beatles (we are greater than God himself)


Culture breeds diversity.....so i guess African americas can't be proud of being african, i guess irish can't be proud of being irish, i guess mexican americans cant be proud of being mexican/spanish...............diversity, like nationality, isn't a bad thing unless it is taken to extremes..........much like the points you made , these are extremes and not the norm..............

also Palestinians/Jewish contlicts has far more to do with religion then it does nationality.....................

and the beatles, like americans, never said they are bigger then jesus...........

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
how about this.......why don't you show me how having PRIDE (or loyality) in my country and state..........causes me to feel any hatred?

see basing your arguements on exaggerations.......does not prove a point, it never will, you can not base the actions of a few on the ideas of the many............

also i could just as easily say that you are brainwashed by the left.......one world order/ or society........would only lead to murder, war, oppression, racism, lack of power, an elite group of rulers, and even BLIND HATRED...........it would never cause world peace...........

One thing I took away from philosophical analysis of the Bible is that Pride is one of the seven deadly sins. That is a valid point, even though I may not agree with the entire text of the Bible. Generally most of the ideas were to promote good values, and having pride leads to one person thinking they are better, that is the nature of pride. Evil Zach put it very well in his post, and I agree completly.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
One thing I took away from philosophical analysis of the Bible is that Pride is one of the seven deadly sins. That is a valid point, even though I may not agree with the entire text of the Bible. Generally most of the ideas were to promote good values, and having pride leads to one person thinking they are better, that is the nature of pride. Evil Zach put it very well in his post, and I agree completly.

on yet another topic we disagree............

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
on yet another topic we disagree............

Wow, we're like 0 for 5 or something. You want a separate thread for this one?

[Alex Djaferis]

Im against hardcore nationalism...you can be proud of where your from and where your roots are to an extent..but if it becomes to MUCH of a pride factor..it just spells blind ignorance towards others in the long run.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
Wow, we're like 0 for 5 or something. You want a separate thread for this one?

seperate thread for what?

also we both don't like miss.skibahahaha.......,that makes it 1/6..............

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
seperate thread for what?



The other topic......pride and the Bible I think is what you meant when you said "yet another topic we don't agree on.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy


also we both don't like miss.skibahahaha.......,that makes it 1/6..............

True. Are we allowed to start hate threads, or just appreciation ones?

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
The other topic......pride and the Bible I think is what you meant when you said "yet another topic we don't agree on.

i gotcha........i ment about having pride in ones country........as for the bible, i normally don't like to talk about religion on forums..........

[Matthew]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
i gotcha........i ment about having pride in ones country........as for the bible, i normally don't like to talk about religion on forums..........

religious debates never go anywhere. and pride in country isnt bad as long as it is moderate. i would mcuh rather take pride in being a glbal citizen than being an american though.