Can Pornography Be Feminist?

[Matt Chylak]

had no idea where to post this.

for my folklore and sexuality class, i had to read this article, "A Feminist Defense of Pornography," specifically thinking about the relationship between feminism and adult media in the modern era.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/mcelroy_17_4.html

does anyone else have any ideas? it seems hard to establish new opportunities for women when the majority of porn roles require submission.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

When it comes to porn, I prefer women who take control.

But in all seriousness, I saw Ron Jeremy in a live debate he did at times with a former porn addict, and he basically said that nowadays, the majority of the porn industry is run by women.

[yayitsjoe]

that was a very interesting read. and, i think there can be porn that supports women. is that called feminist? i don't know.

[zion the lion]

You posted this in two places?

[AndrewIcex]

Interesting thought, very relevant to my Gender Roles class, I wonder if my teacher would approve? Haha

[SlappedActor]

But in all seriousness, I saw Ron Jeremy in a live debate he did at times with a former porn addict, and he basically said that nowadays,the majority of the porn industry is run by women.

I'm fairly certain that's not true.

[signal to noise]

i know someone that took a human sexuality course at school, and they said that a feminist trait to pornography is how when you watch a porn, its very focused on the female, its all about her performance, shes the star of it, the guy is just... there. in a way, its empowering to the woman, because shes the whole reason you're watching it. if that makes any sense.

[Matt Chylak]

i'd imagine my teacher's argument is going to be something along the lines of "the woman takes control, even though she's being submissive. she's expressing her own sexuality, glorifying herself."

[Matt Chylak]

that was a very interesting read. and, i think there can be porn that supports women. is that called feminist? i don't know.

what do you mean by "supports"?

[Love As Arson]

From the premises to the actual acts, mainstream porn is sexist. There are other forms of visual erotica which do not depict women in subservient roles, but they are in the minority. As for the article written by Wendy, the arguments are terrible. Yes, we understand that objects have no sexuality, however, the point is that serve a limited purpose related to its use and that is exactly how porn depicts women - as receptacles for this aggressive, violent and distorted male sexuality. Robert Jensen is a hero of mine, so I think he was on point. In any event, I think the most insidious thing patriarchy has done is direct the genuine desire for sexual liberation and transformed it into a set of acts done for men; women did not want sexual liberation in order to attract the gaze of men, but to create themselves in a new way. Porn plays into this as well, since we see books that teach people how to have sex like a porn star. And let us not be dishonest, men are victimized by this as well, because it depicts men as these less-than-rational creatures whose only goal is to have sex with a woman who, more often than not, isn't willing until he forces himself inside of her and she realizes that she likes it; personally, I dislike male sexuality having such links to violence and rape.

[zion the lion]

i know someone that took a human sexuality course at school, and they said that a feminist trait to pornography is how when you watch a porn, its very focused on the female, its all about her performance, shes the star of it, the guy is just... there. in a way, its empowering to the woman, because shes the whole reason you're watching it. if that makes any sense.

You arent focused on her as a person, you're not focused on her personality, or the shitty acting. You're focused on her vagina or her anus and her breasts. The fact that there is over the top moaning and bad acting and that you're still watching it kind of shows that she's "just...there" too. You're watching porn to get off, not to admire her as a person. It's not like when you watch it you think "wow this is a girl I want to marry/be in love with/know", when you watch it, you think about having sex (probably for your own gratification, not hers) and about when you're going to climax. It's not even like you respect her as a person.

i'd imagine my teacher's argument is going to be something along the lines of "the woman takes control, even though she's being submissive. she's expressing her own sexuality, glorifying herself."

The director is taking control. She's not.

[Matt Chylak]

what about freedom of expression? she still chooses to participate in the act

[zion the lion]

what about freedom of expression? she still chooses to participate in the act

What freedom of expression? Doing the reverse cowgirl instead of the missionary?

[yayitsjoe]

what do you mean by "supports"?

looking back at that. supports was a terrible choice of wording. i meant porn that respects women.

[Matt Chylak]

What freedom of expression? Doing the reverse cowgirl instead of the missionary?

uhhh...how about the choice of BEING IN A PORNOGRAPHY?

looking back at that. supports was a terrible choice of wording. i meant porn that respects women.

i personally think that it's misguided to say that performing in a porn can respect women. however, i wouldn't be averse to the term "liberating"

[tonighttonight0]

Two words, cum shot.

[zion the lion]

uhhh...how about the choice of BEING IN A PORNOGRAPHY?

Do you think being the manager of Burger King is freedom of expression too?

[Matt Chylak]

Do you think being the manager of Burger King is freedom of expression too?

weak analogy. and you're not even considering people who aren't paid to be in porn.

[presdaddy]

female porn stars get paid something like 500% of their male counterparts... if feminists start supporting pornography, how will they inflate the female/male salary statistics?!

[zion the lion]

weak analogy. and you're not even considering people who aren't paid to be in porn.

You're right, it is a weak analogy. Both are jobs that you get paid for (unless you're in girls gone wild where you just get a t-shirt), but you have to work harder to do. Very weak analogy.

I lived in a triplex, one of the other neighbors who lived there made "amateur porn", the girls that would be featured were usually prostitutes and they were paid. And honestly, how many people do you think werent paid to be in porn but found themselves on the internet because of a vindictive ex or something?

I respect porn more when its done by professionals.

[zion the lion]

female porn stars get paid something like 500% of their male counterparts... if feminists start supporting pornography, how will they inflate the female/male salary statistics?!

I said that in the other thread. But the fact that men in straight porn are paid less than men in gay porn, proves that pornography is and probably always will be an industry geared towards men.

[SlappedActor]

I have nothing against the porn industry or its existence, but I've never heard an argument for its being "empowering" or "liberating" that I quite buy.

[Matt Chylak]

You're right, it is a weak analogy. Both are jobs that you get paid for (unless you're in girls gone wild where you just get a t-shirt), but you have to work harder to do. Very weak analogy.

I lived in a triplex, one of the other neighbors who lived there made "amateur porn", the girls that would be featured were usually prostitutes and they were paid. And honestly, how many people do you think werent paid to be in porn but found themselves on the internet because of a vindictive ex or something?

I respect porn more when its done by professionals.

the bolded doesn't make sense, and it's a weak analogy because they're doing very different things. one person works hard and get promoted through a minimum wage job, the other in essence licenses their body for a higher-end fee. if you're really ignorant to the disparaging differences between the two jobs BESIDES that, there's not much i can do to help you. but in one sense, you're right. both people are making a CHOICE.

again, there's a difference between prostitutes getting filmed for crack money (or whatever truism your life experience is supposed to convey...not really relevant) and couples who make porn for themselves. perhaps the media and all of the famous sex tapes of our generation has discolored your overall perception of pornography, but i can assure you many people that participate in porn have other options.

it sounds like you don't "respect" porn at all, so why pretend?

[Matt Chylak]

I said that in the other thread. But the fact that men in straight porn are paid less than men in gay porn, proves that pornography is and probably always will be an industry geared towards men.

what does this have to do with anything? it's harder to find a man to do gay porn than it is to find a man to do straight porn. it's simple supply and demand...with less of a labor supply the wage demand goes up.

[zion the lion]

the bolded doesn't make sense, and it's a weak analogy because they're doing very different things. one person works hard and get promoted through a minimum wage job, the other in essence licenses their body for a higher-end fee. if you're really ignorant to the disparaging differences between the two jobs BESIDES that, there's not much i can do to help you. but in one sense, you're right. both people are making a CHOICE.

again, there's a difference between prostitutes getting filmed for crack money (or whatever truism your life experience is supposed to convey...not really relevant) and couples who make porn for themselves. perhaps the media and all of the famous sex tapes of our generation has discolored your overall perception of pornography, but i can assure you many people that participate in porn have other options.

it sounds like you don't "respect" porn at all, so why pretend?

How many days a week (or better yet, a year) does a burger king manager work, and for how many hours...and how many days and hours does an actress in a porn work? Do you see how one works harder? Other than the fact that one spends time with a penis inside of her body (which is somehow in your mind expressing herself) and the other is paid less to do other things, they're still both jobs. As a professional, your money still goes to an income tax.

It seems to me you respect porn actors a lot more than you respect prostitutes, for some dumb reason.

[Matt Chylak]

How many days a week (or better yet, a year) does a burger king manager work, and for how many hours...and how many days and hours does an actress in a porn work?

you aren't making any sense.

first, pull out some actual facts instead of generalizing with a question (the bolded). a lot of upper echelon porn actors/actresses work on close to 20 movies a month...probably more time than a burger king manager spends at his/her job.

Do you see how one works harder?
next, you're going to have to actually say the point you're trying to make instead of asking another general question and expecting me to have a flash of insight like "OH! you're absolutely right zion! what an idiot i am!"

Other than the fact that one spends time with a penis inside of her body (which is somehow in your mind expressing herself) and the other is paid less to do other things, they're still both jobs. As a professional, your money still goes to an income tax.
this part is hilarious for a few reason. (1) a large, large, large group of people would consider pornography an art form. go to the met in new york. there's currently two real naked people simulating sex on the third floor, complete with grunts and moans. (2) you're really trying to equate all jobs? are you seriously not understanding how flawed your analogy is? by your logic, we could just throw the president into this conversation too...after all, isn't he paying in an income tax?

which leads me to

It seems to me you respect porn actors a lot more than you respect prostitutes, for some dumb reason.
i DO respect porn actors more than prostitutes, because porn actors have the good sense to go through the (usually) legal and proper channels to have sex for money, and as a result are much safer and cost-efficient than prostitutes.

[zion the lion]

i DO respect porn actors more than prostitutes, because porn actors have the good sense to go through the (usually) legal and proper channels to have sex for money, and as a result are much safer and cost-efficient than prostitutes.

So it only has to do with taxes, which is why apparently to you a prostitute spends all of her money on crack (which is basically what you said in your earlier post) and porn actresses spend their money on what? Charities?

[Matt Chylak]

So it only has to do with taxes, which is why apparently to you a prostitute spends all of her money on crack (which is basically what you said in your earlier post) and porn actresses spend their money on what? Charities?

you don't possess the reading comprehension for me to have a real debate with you. good night.

[zion the lion]

you don't possess the reading comprehension for me to have a real debate with you. good night.

You're right, it's reading comprehension, not differing views, your dumb double standard for prostitutes and porn stars, or your poorly explained "it's freedom of expression!" cop out...It's reading comprehension. Because it's all about the woman being in control when a director pays her to put her toddler-like smooth vagina on display to be gawked at, whether it be while someone is penetrating it or it's "art" and they're simulating sexual acts.

My pills are kicking in and The Wendy Williams show is on, so I'm done. The funny thing is that even when I'm not in my sober mind, I dont resort to name calling or insulting someone...that's kind of sad that you couldnt.

[DanTGD]

By having them on top.

[thechetearly]

I'm fairly certain that's not true.

hahahahaha i was thinking the same thing

[thechetearly]

there will always be those advocating for the commodization and objectification of the human body.

take that for what you will.

[jawstheme]

Seems pretty degrading to women if you ask me.

[open mind]

if i could get paid for having (or faking) an orgasm with a sexual partner i'd be pretty happy......but the reality is that the porn industry (like any other industry) will exploit you and toss you away like a piece of trash when they're done with you whether or not the boss is female.

[introduction]

Iin the exact same way Soulja Boy can be musical.

[zachff]

I watched a HBO: Real Sex from 2009 about feminist pornography. You should dig that up./

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

I'm fairly certain that's not true.

I'm not an expert, that's just one of the things I remembered he said

[deFobbed14yrs]

...No. Porn is not used to empower anyone. It's so people can get aroused and get off. If it was 'empowering", than you wouldn't have to hide those magazines under your bed when your mom cleans your room.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

...No. Porn is not used to empower anyone. It's so people can get aroused and get off. If it was 'empowering", than you wouldn't have to hide those magazines under your bed when your mom cleans your room.

Many couples watch it together to spice up their sex lives.

[deFobbed14yrs]

Many couples watch it together to spice up their sex lives.

Many more boys use it to jack off. Although you do make a valid point, i don't think it empowers the couple, just gets them to enjoy each other more.

[Love As Arson]

I think there is a difference between erotica and pornography. The latter can help couples, as it is focused on an empowering of each other and satisfaction of one another; the latter, by virtue of its distortions of power relations, can distort sexuality.

[thechetearly]

I think there is a difference between erotica and pornography. The latter can help couples, as it is focused on an empowering of each other and satisfaction of one another; the latter, by virtue of its distortions of power relations, can distort sexuality.

could not put it better myself.

[Matt Chylak]

You're right, it's reading comprehension, not differing views, your dumb double standard for prostitutes and porn stars, or your poorly explained "it's freedom of expression!" cop out...It's reading comprehension. Because it's all about the woman being in control when a director pays her to put her toddler-like smooth vagina on display to be gawked at, whether it be while someone is penetrating it or it's "art" and they're simulating sexual acts.

My pills are kicking in and The Wendy Williams show is on, so I'm done. The funny thing is that even when I'm not in my sober mind, I dont resort to name calling or insulting someone...that's kind of sad that you couldnt.

really? ha. you haven't responded to a single point i've made, and you've twisted things i've said into straw men for you to (weakly) bash. it's not an insult. you don't have the reading comprehension for me to have a decent argument with you.

again with the generalizations. so now all porn stars have a "toddler-like smooth vagina?" come on.

[Matt Chylak]

I think there is a difference between erotica and pornography. The latter can help couples, as it is focused on an empowering of each other and satisfaction of one another; the latter, by virtue of its distortions of power relations, can distort sexuality.

does the distinction lie within the two results you've just mentioned then? because i can see one film affecting to couples very differently

[Love As Arson]

does the distinction lie within the two results you've just mentioned then? because i can see one film affecting to couples very differently
The distinction lies in the results, as well as the nature of the content and its effect on people.

[whiterussian]

Porn is pretty much the ultimate objectification, even more than prostitution in a way since there's no interaction whatsoever.
What a weird topic.


"Feminizing" porn (the content) is pretty much impossible, since objectification is kind of the point. And not every person gets off on the same material.
For some guys, having the woman scream like she's being done by a rhinoceros is their thing. It's a market.

[Matt Chylak]

The distinction lies in the results, as well as the nature of the content and its effect on people.

seems a little too subjective, unless you can define "nature of the content" a bit better

[Love As Arson]

seems a little too subjective, unless you can define "nature of the content" a bit better
I've described the nature of the content in previous posts.

[Matt Chylak]

I've described the nature of the content in previous posts.

not really, you just mentioned subservience in pornography is wrong, which isn't a "result" of watching erotica but rather a sample of something that goes on in porn.

[zion the lion]

really? ha. you haven't responded to a single point i've made, and you've twisted things i've said into straw men for you to (weakly) bash. it's not an insult. you don't have the reading comprehension for me to have a decent argument with you.

again with the generalizations. so now all porn stars have a "toddler-like smooth vagina?" come on.

I didnt respond, I know porn is a job, and you think its a form of art...you arent going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. I had other things going on last night, I did have responses ready in my head for everything you said but I didnt want to waste too much more mental energy when I knew it was going absolutely nowhere.

I didnt really twist your words so much, I basically just pointed out how stupid those opinions were. Saying that prostitutes that gets paid to do some amateur porn is going to spend their money on crack is a huge generalization, if anything it's just as much of a generalization as my "toddler smooth vagina" comment. You're doing the same exact thing I'm doing but now I'm the one who doesnt have the reading comprehension? Interesting.

If you want me to really respond to something you've said, I'll talk about the prostitutes in more depth like I wanted to last night. You say you dont respect them only because they dont pay taxes, but I'm halfway sure that the people at the bunny ranch (and any other place like that) do. I know you made an emphasis on amateur porn, but those girls who are in amateur porn (like bang bros or whatever the fuck its called, or the one where it's like "look what these girls will do for money") are getting paid, but they arent paying taxes on that.

And yes, saying someone doesnt have any reading comprehension (especially when reading has been one of their favorite things to do for 15 years) is an insult...it's like me calling you an illiterate son of a bitch.

[Love As Arson]

not really, you just mentioned subservience in pornography is wrong, which isn't a "result" of watching erotica but rather a sample of something that goes on in porn.

Review my initial post.

[Matt Chylak]

I didnt respond, I know porn is a job, and you think its a form of art...you arent going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. I had other things going on last night, I did have responses ready in my head for everything you said but I didnt want to waste too much more mental energy when I knew it was going absolutely nowhere.

I didnt really twist your words so much, I basically just pointed out how stupid those opinions were. Saying that prostitutes that gets paid to do some amateur porn is going to spend their money on crack is a huge generalization, if anything it's just as much of a generalization as my "toddler smooth vagina" comment. You're doing the same exact thing I'm doing but now I'm the one who doesnt have the reading comprehension? Interesting.

If you want me to really respond to something you've said, I'll talk about the prostitutes in more depth like I wanted to last night. You say you dont respect them only because they dont pay taxes, but I'm halfway sure that the people at the bunny ranch (and any other place like that) do. I know you made an emphasis on amateur porn, but those girls who are in amateur porn (like bang bros or whatever the fuck its called, or the one where it's like "look what these girls will do for money") are getting paid, but they arent paying taxes on that.

And yes, saying someone doesnt have any reading comprehension (especially when reading has been one of their favorite things to do for 15 years) is an insult...it's like me calling you an illiterate son of a bitch.

the crack comment was a joke, as the parentheses afterward indicated. i'll respond to these in a bit, after i read them.

[Matt Chylak]

Review my initial post.

i dd review your initial post...it's like the only thing you've posted, period.

- the arguments in the article i posted are terrible (ok...)
- porn makes women into receptacles for male sexual aggression (huge generalization)
- sexual liberation has become redefined as "doing things for men" (bullshit. a large subset of pornography is focused on women)
- "women wanted sexual liberation to reinvent themselves" (it's difficult to say where that ends and "attracting the gaze of men" starts)
- men are victimized as well (not as interested in this post)

[Matt Chylak]

I didnt respond, I know porn is a job, and you think its a form of art...you arent going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. I had other things going on last night, I did have responses ready in my head for everything you said but I didnt want to waste too much more mental energy when I knew it was going absolutely nowhere.

I didnt really twist your words so much, I basically just pointed out how stupid those opinions were. Saying that prostitutes that gets paid to do some amateur porn is going to spend their money on crack is a huge generalization, if anything it's just as much of a generalization as my "toddler smooth vagina" comment. You're doing the same exact thing I'm doing but now I'm the one who doesnt have the reading comprehension? Interesting.

If you want me to really respond to something you've said, I'll talk about the prostitutes in more depth like I wanted to last night. You say you dont respect them only because they dont pay taxes, but I'm halfway sure that the people at the bunny ranch (and any other place like that) do. I know you made an emphasis on amateur porn, but those girls who are in amateur porn (like bang bros or whatever the fuck its called, or the one where it's like "look what these girls will do for money") are getting paid, but they arent paying taxes on that.

And yes, saying someone doesnt have any reading comprehension (especially when reading has been one of their favorite things to do for 15 years) is an insult...it's like me calling you an illiterate son of a bitch.

being a painter is a job too. why can't it be both?

again, i was being completely factious about the "crack" comment. i can pull your original quote:

I lived in a triplex, one of the other neighbors who lived there made "amateur porn", the girls that would be featured were usually prostitutes and they were paid. And honestly, how many people do you think werent paid to be in porn but found themselves on the internet because of a vindictive ex or something?

how does your life experience and neighborly relations to porn directors have any relevance whatsoever to the topic at hand? amateur porn, by the way, is UNPAID. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_pornography
it doesn't matter if it's a dude in a basement or a high-budget XXX flick, if you're paid you're professional. it's the same idea for NCAA sports: no money, or you're considered a pro.

i actually never mentioned taxes once. you did. i respect porn actors more because they have sex for money in a documented, safe fashion. there's work histories that attempt to prevent the spread of disease, the Adult Industry Medical Healthcare Foundation, and much more. it might not be perfect, but it's a lot better than street prostitution. Nevada is the only US state that allows brothels, so your point is moot. the majority of prostitution is illegal.

and finally, if the only thing you took away from my earlier post is that prostitutes spend all their money on crack, you don't have good reading comprehension. it's not an insult if you're stating facts, babe.

[zion the lion]

being a painter is a job too. why can't it be both?

again, i was being completely factious about the "crack" comment. i can pull your original quote:



how does your life experience and neighborly relations to porn directors have any relevance whatsoever to the topic at hand? amateur porn, by the way, is UNPAID. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_pornography
it doesn't matter if it's a dude in a basement or a high-budget XXX flick, if you're paid you're professional. it's the same idea for NCAA sports: no money, or you're considered a pro.

i actually never mentioned taxes once. you did. i respect porn actors more because they have sex for money in a documented, safe fashion. there's work histories that attempt to prevent the spread of disease, the Adult Industry Medical Healthcare Foundation, and much more. it might not be perfect, but it's a lot better than street prostitution. Nevada is the only US state that allows brothels, so your point is moot. the majority of prostitution is illegal.

and finally, if the only thing you took away from my earlier post is that prostitutes spend all their money on crack, you don't have good reading comprehension. it's not an insult if you're stating facts, babe.

Oh, whoops, you're right...I'm wrong. I do want to come back to this and address other points, but at this point I'm not in my sober state of mind, so I'm cant really do that as well right now.

[Love As Arson]

i dd review your initial post...it's like the only thing you've posted, period.

- the arguments in the article i posted are terrible (ok...)
- porn makes women into receptacles for male sexual aggression (huge generalization)
- sexual liberation has become redefined as "doing things for men" (bullshit. a large subset of pornography is focused on women)
- "women wanted sexual liberation to reinvent themselves" (it's difficult to say where that ends and "attracting the gaze of men" starts)
- men are victimized as well (not as interested in this post)
And that is content of the porn which can distort sexuality.

[Matt Chylak]

And that is content of the porn which can distort sexuality.

there's nothing to say that distorting sexuality is wrong. after all, isn't that what you tried saying the womens lib movement was trying to do: shake up traditional views towards sexuality?

[zion the lion]

there's nothing to say that distorting sexuality is wrong. after all, isn't that what you tried saying the womens lib movement was trying to do: shake up traditional views towards sexuality?

I've honestly never seen the womens lib movement as distorting sexuality. I've seen it more as combating traditional gender roles and fighting double standards.

I'm not trying to argue with you or anything, but how do you see it as distorting sexuality exactly?

[caveBEAR]

I've honestly never seen the womens lib movement as distorting sexuality. I've seen it more as combating traditional gender roles and fighting double standards.

I'm not trying to argue with you or anything, but how do you see it as distorting sexuality exactly?

Women's libbers constantly spread the myth of the clitoris.

[SlappedActor]

there's nothing to say that distorting sexuality is wrong. after all, isn't that what you tried saying the womens lib movement was trying to do: shake up traditional views towards sexuality?

The movement was/is not about trying to shake up views towards sexuality (although that is a component) as much as shake up traditional views towards women's rights and gender differences.

Porn reduces women to sexual objects and nothing more, which is the opposite of the feminist movement's goals. In porn, women exist solely as vessels for sexual activity and that's it. It makes women one-dimensional.

[bladerdude360]

Dude, don't waste your time with Zion, it's pointless.

[Love As Arson]

there's nothing to say that distorting sexuality is wrong. after all, isn't that what you tried saying the womens lib movement was trying to do: shake up traditional views towards sexuality?
Distorting sexuality in the sense that women are subservient, often have sex forced on them and, in some cases, are brutalized. Women's liberation doesn't distort sexuality, it allows women to express it on their own terms and as equals; it tries to disrupt/eradicate the tendencies we see reflected in porn.

[Matt Chylak]

I've honestly never seen the womens lib movement as distorting sexuality. I've seen it more as combating traditional gender roles and fighting double standards.

I'm not trying to argue with you or anything, but how do you see it as distorting sexuality exactly?

i was using the word "distort" because that's the word love as arson used. "refining" is the word i would rather use, and i think sexuality is certainly included under the heading of "gender roles"

[Matt Chylak]

Distorting sexuality in the sense that women are subservient, often have sex forced on them and, in some cases, are brutalized. Women's liberation doesn't distort sexuality, it allows women to express it on their own terms and as equals; it tries to disrupt/eradicate the tendencies we see reflected in porn.

there's plenty of pornography that has women taking control. S&M? dominatrices? your argument doesn't hold water in that light.

[zion the lion]

Women's libbers constantly spread the myth of the clitoris.

It's just a tunnel on the other side of town that leads to the g-spot. Homeless people live there.

i was using the word "distort" because that's the word love as arson used. "refining" is the word i would rather use, and i think sexuality is certainly included under the heading of "gender roles"

When I think of traditional gender roles the first thing I think of is that book I'm So Glad I'm a Boy!: I'm So Glad I'm a Girl!, not human sexuality.

[caveBEAR]

It's just a tunnel on the other side of town that leads to the g-spot. Homeless people live there.

Must...not...make...joke...about... odor...of...homeless...people...

[zion the lion]

Must...not...make...joke...about... odor...of...homeless...people...

Do they smell like yeast infection?

[Matt Chylak]

The movement was/is not about trying to shake up views towards sexuality (although that is a component) as much as shake up traditional views towards women's rights and gender differences.

Porn reduces women to sexual objects and nothing more, which is the opposite of the feminist movement's goals. In porn, women exist solely as vessels for sexual activity and that's it. It makes women one-dimensional.

bullshit. in pornography, many women take on roles of more dominant roles (see my comment above), and way more different types of women (different body types, etc) than things like the fashion world would allow.

porn also subverts traditional ideas about women, such as ideas that women do not like sex generally, only enjoy sex in a relational context

[Matt Chylak]

It's just a tunnel on the other side of town that leads to the g-spot. Homeless people live there.


When I think of traditional gender roles the first thing I think of is that book I'm So Glad I'm a Boy!: I'm So Glad I'm a Girl!, not human sexuality.

that's your ideas...not really relevant to overall interaction between pornography and feminism, but whatever.

[Matt Chylak]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

somewhat relevant to this conversation:

when i asked my housemate if pornography can be feminist, he said, "maybe...not the good kind."

[IntoTheSun]

Pretty much agreed with LoveAsArson's points.
Must...not...make...joke...about... odor...of...homeless...people...

hahahahaha

[zion the lion]

bullshit. in pornography, many women take on roles of more dominant roles (see my comment above), and way more different types of women (different body types, etc) than things like the fashion world would allow.

porn also subverts traditional ideas about women, such as ideas that women do not like sex generally, only enjoy sex in a relational context

He's kind of right, (and I've said this part before) you arent watching porn because you respect the girl in it for her personality, or what she's done in life, you dont even know who she is outside of the bedroom. You're watching her because you need to get off and she's a tool for arousal. She's just a sex object, she has reduced herself down to just sex, and you're continuing the "objectification" by watching her in this one arena. You cant pretend like she's an actress playing an extremely developed character by performing sex acts with someone else (or with herself). Porn is a shallow industry, even people working in it know that. You have to be completely up your ass to think porn is about saving lives or fostering self esteem.

[Matt Chylak]

He's kind of right, (and I've said this part before) you arent watching porn because you respect the girl in it for her personality, or what she's done in life, you dont even know who she is outside of the bedroom. You're watching her because you need to get off and she's a tool for arousal. She's just a sex object, she has reduced herself down to just sex, and you're continuing the "objectification" by watching her in this one arena. You cant pretend like she's an actress playing an extremely developed character by performing sex acts with someone else (or with herself). Porn is a shallow industry, even people working in it know that. You have to be completely up your ass to think porn is about saving lives or fostering self esteem.

it has nothing to do with complexity. obviously it's a shallow industry - we're talking about sex and the selling thereof. again, that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

furthermore, men are objectified WAY more than women in porn. men are literally just their dick in pornography. the rest of them usually isn't even shown.

[zion the lion]

it has nothing to do with complexity. obviously it's a shallow industry - we're talking about sex and the selling thereof. again, that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

What do you mean it has nothing to do with what you're talking about? I was pointing out how women are just sex objects and vessels for sexual activity when you're watching porn.

furthermore, men are objectified WAY more than women in porn. men are literally just their dick in pornography. the rest of them usually isn't even shown.

That is because it's an industry geared towards men.

[Matt Chylak]

What do you mean it has nothing to do with what you're talking about? I was pointing out how women are just sex objects and vessels for sexual activity when you're watching porn.

That is because it's an industry geared towards men.

my point was don't put words in my mouth. nothing i mentioned earlier came remotely close to "porn is about saving lives or fostering self esteem."

[zion the lion]

my point was don't put words in my mouth. nothing i mentioned earlier came remotely close to "porn is about saving lives or fostering self esteem."

...I never said that you said that.

[caveBEAR]

Generally, there are 3 types of porn, and therefore 3 types of dick angles; the first is professional porn, the type like Pirates - you see all the guy and all the girl, and there is generally some long winded storyline. 'Bangbros' style porn is still 'professional', but it is aimed at people who want to 'be in on the action' - the storyline usually involves random dude (i.e., the guy jacking it) hooking up with random girl, and his dick is the only thing shown because it's P.O.V. - the guy at home whacking it is really the one banging the girl on the screen.

Then, of course, there's amateur porn, but that's just a crapshoot on quality, professionalism, storyline and dick placement.

[zion the lion]

Generally, there are 3 types of porn, and therefore 3 types of dick angles; the first is professional porn, the type like Pirates - you see all the guy and all the girl, and there is generally some long winded storyline. 'Bangbros' style porn is still 'professional', but it is aimed at people who want to 'be in on the action' - the storyline usually involves random dude (i.e., the guy jacking it) hooking up with random girl, and his dick is the only thing shown because it's P.O.V. - the guy at home whacking it is really the one banging the girl on the screen.

Then, of course, there's amateur porn, but that's just a crapshoot on quality, professionalism, storyline and dick placement.

Now you just seem like a perv, which means you really disgust me.

[Matt Chylak]

...I never said that you said that.

He's kind of right, (and I've said this part before) you arent watching porn because you respect the girl in it for her personality, or what she's done in life, you dont even know who she is outside of the bedroom. You're watching her because you need to get off and she's a tool for arousal. She's just a sex object, she has reduced herself down to just sex, and you're continuing the "objectification" by watching her in this one arena. You cant pretend like she's an actress playing an extremely developed character by performing sex acts with someone else (or with herself). Porn is a shallow industry, even people working in it know that. You have to be completely up your ass to think porn is about saving lives or fostering self esteem.

you implied that this was my position.

[Matt Chylak]

Generally, there are 3 types of porn, and therefore 3 types of dick angles; the first is professional porn, the type like Pirates - you see all the guy and all the girl, and there is generally some long winded storyline. 'Bangbros' style porn is still 'professional', but it is aimed at people who want to 'be in on the action' - the storyline usually involves random dude (i.e., the guy jacking it) hooking up with random girl, and his dick is the only thing shown because it's P.O.V. - the guy at home whacking it is really the one banging the girl on the screen.

Then, of course, there's amateur porn, but that's just a crapshoot on quality, professionalism, storyline and dick placement.

solid analysis. now i know why you're a fixture in this forum :)

[caveBEAR]

Now you just seem like a perv, which means you really disgust me.

Not really. I only prefer the amateur stuff. Just because I know about the others doesn't mean I frequent them.

[zion the lion]

you implied that this was my position.

That wasnt my intention. Although you did say this

and way more different types of women (different body types, etc) than things like the fashion world would allow.

which seems to be you trying to lead to the argument porn accepting all body types which could lead to fostering self esteem. But no, I wasnt putting words in your mouth, I've just heard that particular argument multiple times before.

Not really. I only prefer the amateur stuff. Just because I know about the others doesn't mean I frequent them.

The only way I wouldnt think that was icky is if you were my boyfriend or something.

[Matt Chylak]

That wasnt my intention. Although you did say this

which seems to be you trying to lead to the argument porn accepting all body types which could lead to fostering self esteem. But no, I wasnt putting words in your mouth, I've just heard that particular argument multiple times before.

The only way I wouldnt think that was icky is if you were my boyfriend or something.

sorry for misreading your intentions.

well...can fashion be feminist? of course. and porn does accept WAY more body types for dominant roles than fashion. like it or not, that is definitely ABOVE the role of "sex object"

gonna ignore the double standard of your post to beerbear

[caveBEAR]

The only way I wouldnt think that was icky is if you were my boyfriend or something.

What? No one can whack it unless they're dating you?

[jawstheme]

bullshit. in pornography, many women take on roles of more dominant roles (see my comment above), and way more different types of women (different body types, etc) than things like the fashion world would allow.

porn also subverts traditional ideas about women, such as ideas that women do not like sex generally, only enjoy sex in a relational context

That just meets some guy's fetish. They aren't empowered at all, just in a role some guys want them to be in so they can get off.

And the second bolded part is ridiculous. That can't seriously be your argument. "Women enjoy sex so porn is not sexist."

[Matt Chylak]

What? No one can whack it unless they're dating you?

maybe she's saving it

[zion the lion]

sorry for misreading your intentions.

well...can fashion be feminist? of course. and porn does accept WAY more body types for dominant roles than fashion. like it or not, that is definitely ABOVE the role of "sex object"

gonna ignore the double standard of your post to beerbear

Fashion is an industry geared towards women, porn is an industry geared towards men. You'll find a bunch of plus sized and petite models who do catalog modeling which is less recognized, while high fashion is what makes models famous, it's more respected and is put into the forefront of the fashion industry. Its kind of the same with porn, the more mainstream look with porn is like that of a model but with bigger breasts. Plus sized women and even women of different races are in a different category are are sometimes considered fetishes.

So yeah porn may have more body types but they separate them as if they arent normal and as if being attracted to them isnt normal.

[Matt Chylak]

That just meets some guy's fetish. They aren't empowered at all, just in a role some guys want them to be in so they can get off.

And the second bolded part is ridiculous. That can't seriously be your argument. "Women enjoy sex so porn is not sexist."

not always. short-sighted argument.

i never said porn isn't sexist. the argument in this thread is whether porn CAN be feminist. historically, there was a gender expectation that men were the ones who think about sex all the time and women (for the most part) were chaste and pure. the rise of mainstream pornography in the mid-80s brought about and encouraged a dialogue whereby both men and women enjoy sex, throwing off traditional gender preconceptions that had existed for thousands of years.

[zion the lion]

What? No one can whack it unless they're dating you?

you can...but you seem like a disgusting perv unless you're dating me, in which case it turns me on.

maybe she's saving it

I am.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Generally, there are 3 types of porn, and therefore 3 types of dick angles; the first is professional porn, the type like Pirates - you see all the guy and all the girl, and there is generally some long winded storyline. 'Bangbros' style porn is still 'professional', but it is aimed at people who want to 'be in on the action' - the storyline usually involves random dude (i.e., the guy jacking it) hooking up with random girl, and his dick is the only thing shown because it's P.O.V. - the guy at home whacking it is really the one banging the girl on the screen.

Then, of course, there's amateur porn, but that's just a crapshoot on quality, professionalism, storyline and dick placement.

As you know, I am not prejudice at all, but I cannot watch porn when there is a black male actor. Just seeing one on screen makes me feel incredibly inadequate. :-(

[Scrandon]

"Learning" too much about zion.

[Matt Chylak]

Fashion is an industry geared towards women, porn is an industry geared towards men. You'll find a bunch of plus sized and petite models who do catalog modeling which is less recognized, while high fashion is what makes models famous, it's more respected and is put into the forefront of the fashion industry. Its kind of the same with porn, the more mainstream look with porn is like that of a model but with bigger breasts. Plus sized women and even women of different races are in a different category are are sometimes considered fetishes.

So yeah porn may have more body types but they separate them as if they arent normal and as if being attracted to them isnt normal.

porn elevates way more people to the porn limelight than fashion does to the fashion limelight. i don't think either of us are really informed enough to argue over this point, but it's definitely true. i similarly don't think you're qualified to classify the "mainstream look" of porn without some statistics or literature to back that up.

your overall point is ridiculous. different people like different things, that's like a founding principle of life. classifying porn into different sections makes as much sense as having different clothes stores in a mall. moreover, there's an obvious distinction between fetishes like "feet" and different races.

[jawstheme]

not always. short-sighted argument.

i never said porn isn't sexist. the argument in this thread is whether porn CAN be feminist. historically, there was a gender expectation that men were the ones who think about sex all the time and women (for the most part) were chaste and pure. the rise of mainstream pornography in the mid-80s brought about and encouraged a dialogue whereby both men and women enjoy sex, throwing off traditional gender preconceptions that had existed for thousands of years.

Ok, I agree that porn can be feminist, I guess. But the extremely vast majority is not.

And my argument isn't short sighted. Dominatrix porn is geared towards men that have that fetish. I have never heard of girls who watch dominatrix porn because they want to feel dominating, but they're out there I'm sure. They're outliers. My argument may be generalized, but I think it's justifiable. It's not short sighted though, unless you think in the future many girls will like to watch that kind of porn to be empowered or something.

[caveBEAR]

"Learning" too much about zion.

:nod:

[Matt Chylak]

Ok, I agree that porn can be feminist, I guess. But the extremely vast majority is not.

And my argument isn't short sighted. Dominatrix porn is geared towards men that have that fetish. I have never heard of girls who watch dominatrix porn because they want to feel dominating, but they're out there I'm sure. They're outliers. My argument may be generalized, but I think it's justifiable. It's not short sighted though, unless you think in the future many girls will like to watch that kind of porn to be empowered or something.

i said short-sighted because i don't believe you look beyond the lens of "porn is solely for men" when the reality is a large number of women watch it as well. if all porn was just demeaning to women, i don't think they'd freely watch it.

[zion the lion]

"Learning" too much about zion.

Why is learning in quotation marks?

porn elevates way more people to the porn limelight than fashion does to the fashion limelight. i don't think either of us are really informed enough to argue over this point, but it's definitely true. i similarly don't think you're qualified to classify the "mainstream look" of porn without some statistics or literature to back that up.

your overall point is ridiculous. different people like different things, that's like a founding principle of life. classifying porn into different sections makes as much sense as having different clothes stores in a mall. moreover, there's an obvious distinction between fetishes like "feet" and different races.

When you watch porn, there isnt really a category for thin young (mostly) white girls, however, blacks, asians, heavier women, and women with pubic hair, are put in a separate area where fetishes like feet and S&M are too. As if saying those are fetishes and it's not really normal to be turned on by them. Sure it makes sense to categorize everything but when you put one in the forefront and have the rest tucked away, it kind of says something.

[Matt Chylak]

Why is learning in quotation marks?

When you watch porn, there isnt really a category for thin young (mostly) white girls, however, blacks, asians, heavier women, and women with pubic hair, are put in a separate area where fetishes like feet and S&M are too. As if saying those are fetishes and it's not really normal to be turned on by them. Sure it makes sense to categorize everything but when you put one in the forefront and have the rest tucked away, it kind of says something.

this is simply not true.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kDf5QNWK_eYJ:www.por nhub.com/+porn&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

main page of the first porn site that comes up under "porn." all shapes and sizes. when you delve into catagories, "brunette" and "blonde" have the same alphabetical weight as "asian" "redhead" "euro" and "ebony"

[zion the lion]

this is simply not true.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kDf5QNWK_eYJ:www.por nhub.com/+porn&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

main page of the first porn site that comes up under "porn." all shapes and sizes. when you delve into catagories, "brunette" and "blonde" have the same alphabetical weight as "asian" "redhead" "euro" and "ebony"

That's not every website. I cant really click on the links right now (or probably ever) so I have no clue which site that even is.

[Nevuk]

"Learning" too much about zion.
agreed

[zion the lion]

:nod:

agreed

You both act as if that is the most "tmi" thing I've ever said on this site...or even this year.

[Matt Chylak]

That's not every website. I cant really click on the links right now (or probably ever) so I have no clue which site that even is.

you're actually presuming to tell me what is on porn websites when you won't even click on one? find another argument.

that was the first link that came up on a google search for "porn." it's called "pornhub." seems pretty legit.

[Nevuk]

You both act as if that is the most "tmi" thing I've ever said on this site...or even this year.
Just because it's not the most tmi thing doesn't mean that it wasn't tmi. About half of your posts are tmi.

edit:
sorry if I sound like a prick. Just explaining my opinion.

[zion the lion]

you're actually presuming to tell me what is on porn websites when you won't even click on one? find another argument.

that was the first link that came up on a google search for "porn." it's called "pornhub." seems pretty legit.

My mom is right here, sorry if I dont want to look at a pornographic website out of respect for my mom (and shame).

Just because it's not the most tmi thing doesn't mean that it wasn't tmi. About half of your posts are tmi.

edit:
sorry if I sound like a prick. Just explaining my opinion.

If about half of my posts are tmi, then shouldnt you be used to it or at least kind of expect it by now?

[Nevuk]

My mom is right here, sorry if I dont want to look at a pornographic website out of respect for my mom (and shame).



If about half of my posts are tmi, then shouldnt you be used to it or at least kind of expect it by now?
Doesn't mean I can't whine.

[caveBEAR]

If about half of my posts are tmi, then shouldnt you be used to it or at least kind of expect it by now?

You'd think that, but then there one of your posts will be, and I must stare at the computer like --> :mellow:
and break off from the conversation.

[zion the lion]

Doesn't mean I can't whine.

There's going to be a point where you just get used to it and dont even notice that it may or may not be tmi.

You'd think that, but then there one of your posts will be, and I must stare at the computer like --> :mellow:
and break off from the conversation.

You do that a lot...and it's rude.

[caveBEAR]

You do that a lot...and it's rude.

Tough.

:shrug:

[zion the lion]

Tough.

:shrug:

it doesnt help our relationship.

[Nevuk]

There's going to be a point where you just get used to it and dont even notice that it may or may not be tmi.



You do that a lot...and it's rude.
No. Whining and bitching is in my blood. I whine and bitch about perceived slights that happened years ago.

[SlappedActor]

bullshit. in pornography, many women take on roles of more dominant roles (see my comment above), and way more different types of women (different body types, etc) than things like the fashion world would allow.

porn also subverts traditional ideas about women, such as ideas that women do not like sex generally, only enjoy sex in a relational context

The body type of the women or their role as dominant/submissive is irrelevant, because their function is still purely sexual. They are only valuable because of the sex act. And in the vast majority of fem-dom pornography, they are still acting in accordance with the wishes of the man.

[Matt Chylak]

The body type of the women or their role as dominant/submissive is irrelevant, because their function is still purely sexual. They are only valuable because of the sex act. And in the vast majority of fem-dom pornography, they are still acting in accordance with the wishes of the man.

read some of the other posts that've said the same thing as you, and then respond.

[SlappedActor]

read some of the other posts that've said the same thing as you, and then respond.

I don't know exactly what you're referring to, but if you're talking about your argument about how the fact that porn actresses come in all different shapes and sizes somehow raises them above sex objects, you are wrong. It just shows that men have different sexual preferences. Big deal. If anything, it reinforces my argument that porn portrays women as only valuable because of their sexual traits.

[Matt Chylak]

I don't know exactly what you're referring to, but if you're talking about your argument about how the fact that porn actresses come in all different shapes and sizes somehow raises them above sex objects, you are wrong. It just shows that men have different sexual preferences. Big deal. If anything, it reinforces my argument that porn portrays women as only valuable because of their sexual traits.

again, return to some of my prior arguments. i've already addressed this.

[SlappedActor]

again, return to some of my prior arguments. i've already addressed this.

Using faulty arguments, yes. You failed to adequately refute Love As Arson't points, just like you've failed to adequately refute mine. I guess I'm not surprised, since our two arguments are somewhat similar.

[Matt Chylak]

Using faulty arguments, yes. You failed to adequately refute Love As Arson't points, just like you've failed to adequately refute mine. I guess I'm not surprised, since our two arguments are somewhat similar.

sorry if i wasn't clear.

you (and "love as arson," though he at least hinted at a vague "erotica vs pornography" argument) aren't taking into account the large percentage of women that watch pornography.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/one-in-three-women-watch-porn-study/story-e6freooo-1225828848899
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-24/living/o.women.watching.porn_1_arousal-candida-royalle-explicit-sexual-imagery?_s=PM:LIVING

[AP_Punk]

From the premises to the actual acts, mainstream porn is sexist. There are other forms of visual erotica which do not depict women in subservient roles, but they are in the minority. As for the article written by Wendy, the arguments are terrible. Yes, we understand that objects have no sexuality, however, the point is that serve a limited purpose related to its use and that is exactly how porn depicts women - as receptacles for this aggressive, violent and distorted male sexuality. Robert Jensen is a hero of mine, so I think he was on point. In any event, I think the most insidious thing patriarchy has done is direct the genuine desire for sexual liberation and transformed it into a set of acts done for men; women did not want sexual liberation in order to attract the gaze of men, but to create themselves in a new way. Porn plays into this as well, since we see books that teach people how to have sex like a porn star. And let us not be dishonest, men are victimized by this as well, because it depicts men as these less-than-rational creatures whose only goal is to have sex with a woman who, more often than not, isn't willing until he forces himself inside of her and she realizes that she likes it; personally, I dislike male sexuality having such links to violence and rape.

well said, comrade.

[EasySkankin]

More men watch porn --> Porn focuses on women.

Where's the fuss?

How exactly is porn depreciating women? This seems like confusion of cause and effect. Porn has undoubtedly saved countless people from sexual abuse.

[caveBEAR]

More men watch porn --> Porn focuses on women.

Where's the fuss?

How exactly is porn depreciating women? This seems like confusion of cause and effect. Porn has undoubtedly saved countless people from sexual abuse.

I believe the idea is that in mainstream porn, men tend to be domineering and violent, even if behind the scenes women are pulling the strings. Men watching this porn take away the dominance and violence, not the lovely little 'but the women are the ones really in power' message, which therefore leads to mainstream pornography having a depreciating effect on women.

[Zeran]

honestly, the only porn i watch is amateur. way better than professional, mainstream porn.

[anthonydarko]

No it cannot.

[Love As Arson]

there's plenty of pornography that has women taking control. S&M? dominatrices? your argument doesn't hold water in that light.

Even in porn featuring a dominatrix, the dynamic remains male-centerd and women remain objects, although active,which are meant strictly to give males pleasure. It simply isn't as overt.

[Love As Arson]

sorry if i wasn't clear.

you (and "love as arson," though he at least hinted at a vague "erotica vs pornography" argument) aren't taking into account the large percentage of women that watch pornography.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/one-in-three-women-watch-porn-study/story-e6freooo-1225828848899
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-24/living/o.women.watching.porn_1_arousal-candida-royalle-explicit-sexual-imagery?_s=PM:LIVING
That is meaningless if we understand that there is an existing deficit in power between men and women. As such, many women view it as a norm.

[EasySkankin]

I believe the idea is that in mainstream porn, men tend to be domineering and violent, even if behind the scenes women are pulling the strings. Men watching this porn take away the dominance and violence, not the lovely little 'but the women are the ones really in power' message, which therefore leads to mainstream pornography having a depreciating effect on women.
A man fucks a woman, and not the other way around (most of the time). Men are bigger, stronger, and the testosterone that pumps during sex makes us aggressive and dominant. It's just written in our chromosomes. Porn has done nothing but expand these dynamics so that there's a supply for any kind of demand. Naturally, a woman engaging in sex is surrendering her body to someone else, it's sexy for them. Why do you think big muscles are so attractive to women? They wanna be handled.


Even in porn featuring a dominatrix, the dynamic remains male-centerd and women remain objects, although active,which are meant strictly to give males pleasure. It simply isn't as overt.
Porn is a product. It's made to appeal to its active markets. If women watched porn, it would be entirely different but generally they just don't.

[Love As Arson]

A man fucks a woman, and not the other way around (most of the time). Men are bigger, stronger, and the testosterone that pumps during sex makes us aggressive and dominant. It's just written in our chromosomes. Porn has done nothing but expand these dynamics so that there's a supply for any kind of demand. Naturally, a woman engaging in sex is surrendering her body to someone else, it's sexy for them. Why do you think big muscles are so attractive to women? They wanna be handled.

All of those things are archaic generalizations.

Porn is a product. It's made to appeal to its active markets. If women watched porn, it would be entirely different but generally they just don't.
There are a number of products which cater to sexism. That doesn't mean the message is legitimate. I have no problem with erotica, I have an issue with sexuality as it is portrayed and commodified in the porn industry.

[EasySkankin]

All of those things are archaic generalizations.
There is an exception to everything. But it's just basic biology.

There are a number of products which cater to sexism. That doesn't mean the message is legitimate. I have no problem with erotica, I have an issue with sexuality as it is portrayed and commodified in the porn industry.
There's no porn "message", it's just a commodity. Is KFC spreading an anti-vegetarian message by having chicken so predominant in their menu?

[Love As Arson]

Biology creates the potential. Society effects how that potential is expressed.

[jawstheme]

i said short-sighted because i don't believe you look beyond the lens of "porn is solely for men" when the reality is a large number of women watch it as well. if all porn was just demeaning to women, i don't think they'd freely watch it.

Porm is geared mostly toward men. The vast majority of porn has a male target audience. Are you arguing against that?

What is this large number of women? Can you back that up?

[IntoTheSun]

A man fucks a woman, and not the other way around (most of the time). Men are bigger, stronger, and the testosterone that pumps during sex makes us aggressive and dominant. It's just written in our chromosomes. Porn has done nothing but expand these dynamics so that there's a supply for any kind of demand. Naturally, a woman engaging in sex is surrendering her body to someone else, it's sexy for them. Why do you think big muscles are so attractive to women? They wanna be handled.

Social constructs, not biology.

On a slightly relevant note, I am not attracted to large muscles at all.

[Matt Chylak]

Porm is geared mostly toward men. The vast majority of porn has a male target audience. Are you arguing against that?

What is this large number of women? Can you back that up?

porn also has a large (admittedly not as large as men) female audience.

in fact, i did, with two links located just above you.

[Matt Chylak]

Even in porn featuring a dominatrix, the dynamic remains male-centerd and women remain objects, although active,which are meant strictly to give males pleasure. It simply isn't as overt.

not always, you can't speak for all women.

That is meaningless if we understand that there is an existing deficit in power between men and women. As such, many women view it as a norm.

if women of our generation embrace it, they must not find it completely untolerable. with the women's lib movement, there are always detractors for something deemed sexist today.

[EasySkankin]

Biology creates the potential. Society effects how that potential is expressed.
How? On the neurobiological level people have what they are given at birth through genes, and accumulate what they gain through life.

If you ever watch the discovery channel, you'll eventually come across videos of animals mating. Most mating rituals look like aggressive fights, complete with biting, clawing, etc. This releases testosterone into your brainstem (which the limbic and cortical areas of your brain can control depending on physiology and circumstances) which females can sense subconsciously and are attracted to. When a boxer wins a fight, his testosterone peaks and this all has to do with competition among males for sexual dominance. In the brain, it's all for the girl.

[caveBEAR]

A man fucks a woman, and not the other way around (most of the time). Men are bigger, stronger, and the testosterone that pumps during sex makes us aggressive and dominant. It's just written in our chromosomes. Porn has done nothing but expand these dynamics so that there's a supply for any kind of demand. Naturally, a woman engaging in sex is surrendering her body to someone else, it's sexy for them. Why do you think big muscles are so attractive to women? They wanna be handled.

:lol:

19 was a wonderful age...

[KingsCrossing]

How? On the neurobiological level people have what they are given at birth through genes, and accumulate what they gain through life.

If you ever watch the discovery channel, you'll eventually come across videos of animals mating. Most mating rituals look like aggressive fights, complete with biting, clawing, etc. This releases testosterone into your brainstem (which the limbic and cortical areas of your brain can control depending on physiology and circumstances) which females can sense subconsciously and are attracted to. When a boxer wins a fight, his testosterone peaks and this all has to do with competition among males for sexual dominance. In the brain, it's all for the girl.

I don't think "subconsciously" is exactly the word you're looking for (unless you're taking a psychoanalytic or Neo-Freudian perspective which might make a bit more sense, however it doesn't have much overall scientific validity).

All in all I agree there is certainly an innate sexual aggression in males which may have an evolutionary component, however I'd also make the argument that our society in particular enhances the role of male dominance and reinforces the construct of sexism and female objectification the porn industry thrives on.

On a somewhat unrelated point I wouldn't exactly count out the aggressive nature of women as well. Numerous studies have shown that women can become equally as physically aggressive as men when provoked. In fact an exhaustive meta-analysis of recent studies on domestic violence has shown women are as physically aggressive or more aggressive than men in these type of disputes (though men clearly can inflict much greater damage). Source: www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

Edit: according to the wiki page on domestic violence, other studies have pointed out methodological flaws with the meta-analysis (reporting bias, use of younger couples, etc.), however I think in general this opens up an interesting discussion of how men and women both miscalculate their own use of violence and aggression.

[EasySkankin]

I don't think "subconsciously" is exactly the word you're looking for (unless you're taking a psychoanalytic or Neo-Freudian perspective which might make a bit more sense, however it doesn't have much overall scientific validity).

All in all I agree there is certainly an innate sexual aggression in males which may have an evolutionary component, however I'd also make the argument that our society in particular enhances the role of male dominance and reinforces the construct of sexism and female objectification the porn industry thrives on.

On a somewhat unrelated point I wouldn't exactly count out the aggressive nature of women as well. Numerous studies have shown that women can become equally as physically aggressive as men when provoked. In fact an exhaustive meta-analysis of recent studies on domestic violence has shown women are as physically aggressive or more aggressive than men in these type of disputes (though men clearly can inflict much greater damage). Source: www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm (http://www.csulb.edu/%7Emfiebert/assault.htm)

Edit: according to the wiki page on domestic violence, other studies have pointed out methodological flaws with the meta-analysis (reporting bias, use of younger couples, etc.), however I think in general this opens up an interesting discussion of how men and women both miscalculate their own use of violence and aggression.
I was talking about picking up pheromones of the opposite sex. "Smelling" pheromones slightly alters your neuro-physiology and psychology as well, and recently it was found testosterone translates itself in the pheromone Androstadienone (src (http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-First-Human-Pheromone-Discovered-at-Last-46619.shtml)).

I totally agree that our society emphasizes the domination of men over women, I just don't think porn has anything to do with the problem, if anything it is a solution.

TV and hip-pop music are worse culprits IMO. Every new rap video isn't complete without hordes of half naked mindless dancers crawling over dudes. Pop stars like Katy Perry and Ke$ha make videos where they basically have sex with the camera for 3 minutes. At the VMAs, drake had a couple dozen attractive women sitting in the background of his set doing.... NOTHING. They were just ornaments in the background. Selling sex has invaded almost every aspect of capitalism. Even that one shoe commercial (I forget the name) where the camera is centered on ass 90% of the time.

Yeah it's very interesting because I think a lot of women have a superiority complex because they are seen as a valuable object, which leads to them trying to dominate everyone around them. I wish there was more research.

just 5 posts till I get the big avatar! hyearh!

[zion the lion]

:lol:

19 was a wonderful age...

Hey, I totally want to be handled. I want a guy to take all the control and throw me around like a rag doll during sex. That guy is right about some girls.

[caveBEAR]

:mellow:

[<*)))><]

:-0

[IntoTheSun]

:mellow:

Zion totally wants it from you, it looks like.

[Love As Arson]

not always, you can't speak for all women.
I am not speaking for the women. I am critiquing the situation you described. One can objectify women as mere tools of pleasure in the context of dominatrix-themed erotica.


if women of our generation embrace it, they must not find it completely untolerable. with the women's lib movement, there are always detractors for something deemed sexist today.
As I said, considering the society we live in, where sexual violence, patriarchy inequality is a norm, one will find whole sections of a population which agree with various expressions of those values. There were African-Americans who defended the racist depictions of the race in early American film, but that does not mean those depictions were any less racist and corrosive to the relations between the races. And yes, there are disagreements within the women's liberation movement, which is why there is debate and clarification as to how something, like porn for example, is linked to patriarchy and oppressive forms of sexuality. Whether some agree or not doesn't demonstrate a lack of truth to claims I am putting forth.


How? On the neurobiological level people have what they are given at birth through genes, and accumulate what they gain through life.

If you ever watch the discovery channel, you'll eventually come across videos of animals mating. Most mating rituals look like aggressive fights, complete with biting, clawing, etc. This releases testosterone into your brainstem (which the limbic and cortical areas of your brain can control depending on physiology and circumstances) which females can sense subconsciously and are attracted to. When a boxer wins a fight, his testosterone peaks and this all has to do with competition among males for sexual dominance. In the brain, it's all for the girl.
The difference between us and other animals is, we have advanced consciousness which mitigates instinctual drives and creates societies in which they are expressed in different ways. So, for example, aggression is a component of humanity; however, in classless societies there was much less violence, due to the way they were constructed, as opposed to the societies that had class systems.

[Matt Chylak]

I am not speaking for the women. I am critiquing the situation you described. One can objectify women as mere tools of pleasure in the context of dominatrix-themed erotica.

As I said, considering the society we live in, where sexual violence, patriarchy inequality is a norm, one will find whole sections of a population which agree with various expressions of those values. There were African-Americans who defended the racist depictions of the race in early American film, but that does not mean those depictions were any less racist and corrosive to the relations between the races. And yes, there are disagreements within the women's liberation movement, which is why there is debate and clarification as to how something, like porn for example, is linked to patriarchy and oppressive forms of sexuality. Whether some agree or not doesn't demonstrate a lack of truth to claims I am putting forth.

you're right. one can objectify women in said fashion...or women can assert dominance and have it actually be women asserting dominance.

well, i guess the burden of proof's on me to show that feminism can exist in pornography. i still don't understand your distinction between pornography and erotica though, and fear it's a load of codswallop. here's the dictionary difference:


pornography (merrion webster)
1: the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2: material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement

3: the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction <the pornography of violence>




erotica (same source)
1: literary or artistic works having an erotic theme or quality
2: depictions of things erotic



basically, we've got the "intention" of causing sexual excitement as a defining line. it doesn't really clarify whose excitement, so you can't just assume it's one specific gender.

[x togepi x]

you're right. one can objectify women in said fashion...or women can assert dominance and have it actually be women asserting dominance.

well, i guess the burden of proof's on me to show that feminism can exist in pornography. i still don't understand your distinction between pornography and erotica though, and fear it's a load of codswallop. here's the dictionary difference:


Domme porn is merely tourism. In hetero relationships, it's merely men giving up power in an illusionary manner because being a tourist gives them pleasure, but outside of that situation, they're in full control. It's basically telling women "yeah, you can assert your dominance when it gets me off but don't actually try doing something worthwhile." You could make an argument that it has a feminist element but in a patriarchal context, it can't be truly feminist since a big portion of the pleasure most guys get from it comes from the role reversal which is steeped in injustice. at its core, it's functionally basing pleasure off the "weird/unrealistic" premise of women having power.

it may be possible to use that sort of relationship in a feminist manner but it has to be deconstructed a bit more than I think a lot of that activity does.

[Matt Chylak]

Domme porn is merely tourism. In hetero relationships, it's merely men giving up power in an illusionary manner because being a tourist gives them pleasure, but outside of that situation, they're in full control. It's basically telling women "yeah, you can assert your dominance when it gets me off but don't actually try doing something worthwhile." You could make an argument that it has a feminist element but in a patriarchal context, it can't be truly feminist since a big portion of the pleasure most guys get from it comes from the role reversal which is steeped in injustice. at its core, it's functionally basing pleasure off the "weird/unrealistic" premise of women having power.

it may be possible to use that sort of relationship in a feminist manner but it has to be deconstructed a bit more than I think a lot of that activity does.

ok, you don't agree with domination (i don't really either - sort've realized it was a losing battle as soon as i said it), but that doesn't mean that all women-centered porn demeans its subject. at a certain point, it's completely subjective if the woman is being degrading. after all, we're talking about people licensing their bodies on camera; pretty much everyone loses in that context.

again, i never said porn isn't sexist. the argument in this thread is whether porn CAN be feminist. historically, there was a gender expectation that men were the ones who think about sex all the time and women (for the most part) were chaste and pure. the rise of mainstream pornography in the mid-80s brought about and encouraged a dialogue whereby both men and women enjoy sex, throwing off traditional gender preconceptions that had existed for thousands of years. that sounds pretty feminist to me.

also, what does "truly feminist" mean? completely equal rights? help me understand what you mean.

EDIT: also also, aren't you making a weak assumption that in 'hetero' relationships domination has this illusory effect but in other ones it doesn't? shouldn't there be some equality here?

[Love As Arson]

you're right. one can objectify women in said fashion...or women can assert dominance and have it actually be women asserting dominance.

well, i guess the burden of proof's on me to show that feminism can exist in pornography. i still don't understand your distinction between pornography and erotica though, and fear it's a load of codswallop. here's the dictionary difference:





basically, we've got the "intention" of causing sexual excitement as a defining line. it doesn't really clarify whose excitement, so you can't just assume it's one specific gender.
Pornography, as it exists today, is largely sexist. Erotica is a term I use to define erotic depictions outside of the scope of mainstream pornography, which doesn't distort power relations. As to your first comment, I think Togepi said what I was going to say.

[Matt Chylak]

Pornography, as it exists today, is largely sexist. Erotica is a term I use to define erotic depictions outside of the scope of mainstream pornography, which doesn't distort power relations. As to your first comment, I think Togepi said what I was going to say.

your definition of erotica is fine, but doesn't match the dictionary's. if it's meant to stimulate it's pornography.

by 'outside of mainstream pornography' the image i get is of you and your significant other looking at a roman vase with naked people on it and getting turned on

[Love As Arson]

your definition of erotica is fine, but doesn't match the dictionary's. if it's meant to stimulate it's pornography.
I do not care about the dictonary's definition. Stimulation is a part of erotica,however, it also includes emotion and a respect for, and between, the individual characters. Pornography, because of its tendencies to dehumanize, has a much more shallow dynamic.


by 'outside of mainstream pornography' the image i get is of you and your significant other looking at a roman vase with naked people on it and getting turned on
There are a lot of different forms of erotica. I suggest looking them up.

[Matt Chylak]

I do not care about the dictonary's definition. Stimulation is a part of erotica,however, it also includes emotion and a respect for, and between, the individual characters. Pornography, because of its tendencies to dehumanize, has a much more shallow dynamic.
ugh, more of this. of course its shallow, but that doesn't mean women can't take advantage of it to push women's equality forward in other aspects of life. see: my response to togepei above

There are a lot of different forms of erotica. I suggest looking them up.
no thanks, i'm not really in the mood. get it?

[Love As Arson]

ugh, more of this. of course its shallow, but that doesn't mean women can't take advantage of it to push women's equality forward in other aspects of life.
This goes back to my original statement, where I critiqued the idea that sexist expressions are actually progressive. So, for example, women are liberated by wearing revealing clothing, yet it is in the context of attracting the male gaze and that is simply another version of the archaic categorization of women as a means to an end for males. The fact that porn cannot address this and, in fact, perpetuates it demonstrates that it cannot be progressive; usually, the women in pornography refer to themselves as "whores", a word that carries the implication of prohibition. A truly genuine depiction of sexuality would be much more complex and would relate the ideas of equality. That is to say, in the end, both are satisfied as opposed to the woman kneeling before a man as he ejaculates on her face to express his dominance.

[Matt Chylak]

This goes back to my original statement, where I critiqued the idea that sexist expressions are actually progressive. So, for example, women are liberated by wearing revealing clothing, yet it is in the context of attracting the male gaze and that is simply another version of the archaic categorization of women as a means to an end for males. The fact that porn cannot address this and, in fact, perpetuates it demonstrates that it cannot be progressive; usually, the women in pornography refer to themselves as "whores", a word that carries the implication of prohibition. A truly genuine depiction of sexuality would be much more complex and would relate the ideas of equality. That is to say, in the end, both are satisfied as opposed to the woman kneeling before a man as he ejaculates on her face to express his dominance.

fair enough. you're generalizing with the end though. most amateur porn just ends with them finishing.

[Love As Arson]

fair enough. you're generalizing with the end though. most amateur porn just ends with them finishing.
I think amateur porn, when it isn't using mainstream porn as a template, can reflect real relationships.

[EasySkankin]

The difference between us and other animals is, we have advanced consciousness which mitigates instinctual drives and creates societies in which they are expressed in different ways. So, for example, aggression is a component of humanity; however, in classless societies there was much less violence, due to the way they were constructed, as opposed to the societies that had class systems.
What kind of evidence is there that primitive societies were not violent?
In a modern context, I don't see how a classless society could exist without porn.
So, for example, women are liberated by wearing revealing clothing, yet it is in the context of attracting the male gaze and that is simply another version of the archaic categorization of women as a means to an end for males.
Purely in the context of gender relations, what else are women for?
I think amateur porn, when it isn't using mainstream porn as a template, can reflect real relationships.
Then I think we have arrived at the conclusion porn CAN be feminist, right?

[Love As Arson]

What kind of evidence is there that primitive societies were not violent?
In a modern context, I don't see how a classless society could exist without porn.
If one studies the tribes that are indigenous to North America, there was conflict, but it was much more like a sport and widespread death was not the goal. It is in European society that one sees the development of total war.


Purely in the context of gender relations, what else are women for?
This seems incredibly sexist. I do not define specific purposes for women in relation to men, as there exist no ideal/objective relations.

Then I think we have arrived at the conclusion porn CAN be feminist, right?
I never said that depictions of sex have to be sexist. I said that mainstream pornography is unable to be feminist.

[x togepi x]

ok, you don't agree with domination (i don't really either - sort've realized it was a losing battle as soon as i said it), but that doesn't mean that all women-centered porn demeans its subject. at a certain point, it's completely subjective if the woman is being degrading. after all, we're talking about people licensing their bodies on camera; pretty much everyone loses in that context.

It isn't subjective at all because any pornography is happening in the context of an extremely patriarchal culture. It's the difference between artist/author/director's intention and audience. The audience is still largely going to be viewing this pornography through a sexist lens, so they will recontextualize it in ways completely outside of the feminist porn intention. For example: let's say you have X, who's a star in feminist porn. She's outspoken, she's intelligent, she's a real activist for women's rights. How do you think most men are going to perceive her, even if they've watched her porn? Instead of an outspoken, intelligent human being, she's still going to be considered a whore.

The ability to recontextualize that type of pornography proves that you can't separate porn from its culture. There's a fetish centered around demeaning strong, intelligent women, so there's a good chance that you could have actually having men buying that kind of pornography and it still be demeaning because of how they use it.

That's why I said you have to deconstruct it. Look at the root reasoning for why pornography exists. It's centered on power relations. Until that power relationship is fixed, you're still going to run into that problem.

again, i never said porn isn't sexist. the argument in this thread is whether porn CAN be feminist. historically, there was a gender expectation that men were the ones who think about sex all the time and women (for the most part) were chaste and pure. the rise of mainstream pornography in the mid-80s brought about and encouraged a dialogue whereby both men and women enjoy sex, throwing off traditional gender preconceptions that had existed for thousands of years. that sounds pretty feminist to me.

That isn't what the rise of mainstream pornography led to at all. Our society still treats women who acknowledge that they enjoy sex (or at least talk about it) worse off than we treat men who do the same thing. I mean shit, just look at how Ron Jeremy is perceived as opposed to Jenna Jameson. Jeremy is this bad ass folk hero, Jameson is considered a whore. What relevant differences are there between the two are there besides gender?

If traditional gender preconceptions were thrown off, we would see a society that treats women differently. We wouldn't have women commonly being harassed at clubs or on the street. We wouldn't see rape victims being accused of actually wanting it because they didn't dress in a burka. We wouldn't be using terms like whore or slut. I just think you have a pretty idealized view there.


also, what does "truly feminist" mean? completely equal rights? help me understand what you mean.

it means not patriarchy: equal rights and equal standing.

EDIT: also also, aren't you making a weak assumption that in 'hetero' relationships domination has this illusory effect but in other ones it doesn't? shouldn't there be some equality here?

They all can have an illusory effect (that is part of the fetish, that sex slavery isn't real. real sex slavery isn't all that attractive), but the problem with hetero relationships instead of others is that this illusory effect is more insidious as it draws attention to the inequalities that happen in the real world. Like I said, it's like telling women "it's cool for you to be powerful when it gets me off but don't try and do anything worthwhile." There are women who try and get rid of this illusory effect but they often get passed over for women who don't care.

We read about this in a feminist class I took, a big problem in that scene is that men will just flock to women who will give them sexual things easily.

[StephenYoung]

What freedom of expression? Doing the reverse cowgirl instead of the missionary?

No, Freedom to say "No, I don't want to be a pornstar.

[zion the lion]

No, Freedom to say "No, I don't want to be a pornstar.

You again?

[StephenYoung]

You again?
Sorry for answering your post sir.

[x togepi x]

how exactly is that freedom of expression?

[TheReckoner]

Sorry for answering your post sir.

She's a girl. But I like sir better.

[caveBEAR]

how exactly is that freedom of expression?

Porn or the reverse cowgirl?

[zion the lion]

Sorry for answering your post sir.

No problem, cheater.

And that was a piss poor explanation of how being in porn is a freedom of expression, buddy.

[StephenYoung]

No problem, cheater.

And that was a piss poor explanation of how being in porn is a freedom of expression, buddy.

It's not, but it's not like women have no choice in what they're doing.

[zion the lion]

It's not, but it's not like women have no choice in what they're doing.

So the fact that it's a choice makes it freedom of expression?

[x togepi x]

It's not, but it's not like women have no choice in what they're doing.

just because women choose to do something doesn't mean it's not counter to their interests.

[zion the lion]

Porn or the reverse cowgirl?

I'm pretty sure the reverse cowgirl is the epitome of freedom of expression.

[StephenYoung]

just because women choose to do something doesn't mean it's not counter to their interests.
If it was against their interests, they wouldn't do it.

Fucking research your topic people, most actresses go into the business to try shit out, and don't stay very long.

[x togepi x]

If it was against their interests, they wouldn't do it.

That isn't true at all. You act like every decision people make is done purely rationally and that the choice they make is always the correct one.

Fucking research your topic people, most actresses go into the business to try shit out, and don't stay very long.

Fucking research your topic dude. Part of my objection to the pornography industry is that men are largely in positions of power in those companies and are profiting way more than the actresses themselves.

You act like the only problematic parts of pornography involve the actresses themselves.

[caveBEAR]

I'm pretty sure the reverse cowgirl is the epitome of freedom of expression.

Does everyone see this? This is the most enlightened thing zion has ever said on these boards.

[zion the lion]

Does everyone see this? This is the most enlightened thing zion has ever said on these boards.

That was a perv test...you failed.

[caveBEAR]

That was a perv test...you failed.

Rather be a perv than protestant, thank you.

As well, you've lost any goodwill the reverse cowgirl post gained you. Shame.

[zion the lion]

Rather be a perv than protestant, thank you.

As well, you've lost any goodwill the reverse cowgirl post gained you. Shame.

The only reason I had goodwill is because you thought I was a fan of the RCG action (which is only good for making a sex tape)

[x togepi x]

every guy on this forum is in love with you, so a perv test is unfair. think about it.

is there really a point to pornography?

[zion the lion]

every guy on this forum is in love with you, so a perv test is unfair. think about it.

is there really a point to pornography?

There's a point, but not a good one.

[<*)))><]

That isn't true at all. You act like every decision people make is done purely rationally and that the choice they make is always the correct one.



Fucking research your topic dude. Part of my objection to the pornography industry is that men are largely in positions of power in those companies and are profiting way more than the actresses themselves.

You act like the only problematic parts of pornography involve the actresses themselves.
She seems to be making a lot off porn. (http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0704/124.html) Men in porn make about a few hundred a shoot unless doing gay porn then they can make a few thousand. Women make a few thousand regardless and a bigger name can make into the six digits per shoot.

[StephenYoung]

That isn't true at all. You act like every decision people make is done purely rationally and that the choice they make is always the correct one.



Fucking research your topic dude. Part of my objection to the pornography industry is that men are largely in positions of power in those companies and are profiting way more than the actresses themselves.

You act like the only problematic parts of pornography involve the actresses themselves.

Okay, well isn't all of society like that?

Don't support Paramore, Haley is only making money for whoever the fuck is the man behind her label.

[zion the lion]

Okay, well isn't all of society like that?

Don't support Paramore, Haley is only making money for whoever the fuck is the man behind her label.

Shitty comparison.

[Matt Chylak]

It isn't subjective at all because any pornography is happening in the context of an extremely patriarchal culture. It's the difference between artist/author/director's intention and audience. The audience is still largely going to be viewing this pornography through a sexist lens, so they will recontextualize it in ways completely outside of the feminist porn intention. For example: let's say you have X, who's a star in feminist porn. She's outspoken, she's intelligent, she's a real activist for women's rights. How do you think most men are going to perceive her, even if they've watched her porn? Instead of an outspoken, intelligent human being, she's still going to be considered a whore.

The ability to recontextualize that type of pornography proves that you can't separate porn from its culture. There's a fetish centered around demeaning strong, intelligent women, so there's a good chance that you could have actually having men buying that kind of pornography and it still be demeaning because of how they use it.

That's why I said you have to deconstruct it. Look at the root reasoning for why pornography exists. It's centered on power relations. Until that power relationship is fixed, you're still going to run into that problem.

my question to you then is, for something to be 'feminist' does everyone have to consider it that way? minority groups can make strides towards equality without anyone knowing.

at the end of the day, women are using what they've been given (both their bodies and man's natural tendency to immediately regard them as sexual objects) to make money. they're exploiting the system way more than they're being exploited.

That isn't what the rise of mainstream pornography led to at all. Our society still treats women who acknowledge that they enjoy sex (or at least talk about it) worse off than we treat men who do the same thing. I mean shit, just look at how Ron Jeremy is perceived as opposed to Jenna Jameson. Jeremy is this bad ass folk hero, Jameson is considered a whore. What relevant differences are there between the two are there besides gender?

If traditional gender preconceptions were thrown off, we would see a society that treats women differently. We wouldn't have women commonly being harassed at clubs or on the street. We wouldn't see rape victims being accused of actually wanting it because they didn't dress in a burka. We wouldn't be using terms like whore or slut. I just think you have a pretty idealized view there.

perhaps my view IS idealized, but i think that major strides have been taken with the way men view women in conjunction with sex. women aren't virginal anymore, they're in charge of their own sexuality. preconceptions were thrown off simply because things have changed a bit, and changed for the better. obviously women aren't equal to men yet, but they're getting there. i don't think you can argue with that. actually, i take that back. i'm sure you can argue with that

it means not patriarchy: equal rights and equal standing.

They all can have an illusory effect (that is part of the fetish, that sex slavery isn't real. real sex slavery isn't all that attractive), but the problem with hetero relationships instead of others is that this illusory effect is more insidious as it draws attention to the inequalities that happen in the real world. Like I said, it's like telling women "it's cool for you to be powerful when it gets me off but don't try and do anything worthwhile." There are women who try and get rid of this illusory effect but they often get passed over for women who don't care.

We read about this in a feminist class I took, a big problem in that scene is that men will just flock to women who will give them sexual things easily.

ii don't know where this comes from, but a lot of this paragraph just seems like a generalization. yeah, there's some truth to it, but that doesn't mean you're completely accurate. of everything in your argument, i mostly agree with this last sentence.

[Love As Arson]

Okay, well isn't all of society like that?

Don't support Paramore, Haley is only making money for whoever the fuck is the man behind her label.
You shouldn't support Paramore because they make terrible music. Someone had to say it. Ha.

In any event, the common thing to both of them is they are being exploited. Instead of not supporting them, one can critique the way in which they are being exploited and make an argument for themes/relations that aren't exploitative.


She seems to be making a lot off porn. (http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0704/124.html) Men in porn make about a few hundred a shoot unless doing gay porn then they can make a few thousand. Women make a few thousand regardless and a bigger name can make into the six digits per shoot.
Women can exploit sexism as well and simply because you make good money doesn't mean you aren't being exploited.

[<*)))><]

You shouldn't support Paramore because they make terrible music. Someone had to say it. Ha.

In any event, the common thing to both of them is they are being exploited. Instead of not supporting them, one can critique the way in which they are being exploited and make an argument for themes/relations that aren't exploitative.



Women can exploit sexism as well and simply because you make good money doesn't mean you aren't being exploited.
They are doing a job they want to do and making good money, they have the American in a sense.

[caveBEAR]

is there really a point to pornography?

:squint:

I don't think you're using porn correctly.

[x togepi x]

She seems to be making a lot off porn. (http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0704/124.html) Men in porn make about a few hundred a shoot unless doing gay porn then they can make a few thousand. Women make a few thousand regardless and a bigger name can make into the six digits per shoot.

First off, she's clearly the exception to the rule but I think the people who produced those films are making more than she and they aren't really dealing with as much of the stigma.

Secondly, there's a pay scale in pornography where, at some point if you aren't a big name, you make less and less unless you're willing to do more and more degrading acts so I think the idea that it's "okay" because she's making bank is ridiculous.



Okay, well isn't all of society like that?

Don't support Paramore, Haley is only making money for whoever the fuck is the man behind her label.

Yes, the fact that owners make more than workers for not doing that much is why I don't like capitalism, but you drew a great false analogy there because musicians aren't being degraded as often in their line of work as porn stars and there isn't a stigma attached to being a musician.

[caveBEAR]

What are people's opinions on amateur porn? Do we not really care about what people do with it since it isn't technically isn't a 'business'?

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

What are people's opinions on amateur porn? Do we not really care about what people do with it since it isn't technically isn't a 'business'?

A close friend of mine prefers amateur porn because it's basically a depiction of regular girls out there, as oppose to girls in the San Fernando Valley who save up thousands of dollars for plastic surgery. I suppose I can see his point. I tend to believe that the most beautiful women out there are those who save themselves for monogamous relationships. It's the select few with tight bodies that don't mind having sex in front of a film crew.

[caveBEAR]

A close friend of mine prefers amateur porn because it's basically a depiction of regular girls out there, as oppose to girls in the San Fernando Valley who save up thousands of dollars for plastic surgery. I suppose I can see his point. I tend to believe that the most beautiful women out there are those who save themselves for monogamous relationships. It's the select few with tight bodies that don't mind having sex in front of a film crew.

I can't get aroused looking at some of the monsters from San Fernando Valley.
:shudder:
I enjoy the amateur because they actually look normal & no damn storylines. Although I do enjoy watching the ones where an obvious real world storyline is playing out, like someone walking in on them. They're humorous.

I was more wondering (I should have clarified) what people who have objected to the porn industry feel about it, if it bothers them because of the pornography aspect of it, or if they don't really care since it's just people doing what people are gonna do.

[x togepi x]

my question to you then is, for something to be 'feminist' does everyone have to consider it that way? minority groups can make strides towards equality without anyone knowing.

How is it possible to make strides for equality if nobody knows?

I'm not talking about feminism by consensus (ie: all feminists will agree that doing x is or is not feminist). I'm talking about feminism via implications, and the implications of pornography in a patriarchal system are most likely going to be not feminist. At best, they would be neutral.

at the end of the day, women are using what they've been given (both their bodies and man's natural tendency to immediately regard them as sexual objects) to make money. they're exploiting the system way more than they're being exploited.

This isn't true. Remember that more often than not, a man owns the company and directs the film (or is the photographer), which means they are making more money off her exploitation than she is. In this sense, she's being exploited by those she works for, and those she works for don't have to show themselves naked.

But let's push this aside. This isn't all about money. Playing into socially constructed views that a woman is only good as a sex object isn't feminist. She might be getting ahead on her looks but she's also reinforcing these views, which affect all women, especially those who can't "use what they've been given." Your emphasis here is on the individual, but you have to look at how the individual relates to the community. I'm not saying that it's wrong or somehow not feminist for a woman to use their looks to their advantage if they're doing something that is subversive in some manner, but being a porn star is too problematic to be feminist because, at the end of the day, you're still reinforcing the view that women exist as objects for men's gaze.

perhaps my view IS idealized, but i think that major strides have been taken with the way men view women in conjunction with sex.

I think some strides have been made, but they're not major because they're only really superficial. The root assumptions still largely exist and are taken uncritically by men and women all over the world.

women aren't virginal anymore, they're in charge of their own sexuality.

Women aren't "virginal" but if they actually talk about having sex, men call them sluts. The more sex partners a woman has, the more negatively society usually treats her, but men don't deal with this stigma in the same way.

Women also aren't in charge of their sexuality at all. They still have pressures to conform to an extremely narrow conception of beauty, which was decided upon and policed by men. There's a great article from my feminist philosopher text book I could show you if you're interested in reading a lot about how "women controlling their sexuality" is actually them disciplining themselves to be subject to patriarchy.

preconceptions were thrown off simply because things have changed a bit, and changed for the better. obviously women aren't equal to men yet, but they're getting there. i don't think you can argue with that. actually, i take that back. i'm sure you can argue with that

obviously by your spoiler, you know i'm going to argue with that. it's like i said above, it's largely superficial changes. like yeah, it is better than women aren't totally shit on if they have premarital sex, but they still have to deal with too much bullshit in that area for us to say we've made major strides.

ii don't know where this comes from, but a lot of this paragraph just seems like a generalization. yeah, there's some truth to it, but that doesn't mean you're completely accurate. of everything in your argument, i mostly agree with this last sentence.

the last sentence proves the whole "generalization" to be correct though, so I'm not sure how you can say it's not accurate. clearly there are going to be examples of domimation-relationships that don't fit within that stereotype but what I'm contending is that they're few and far between and becoming even more rare because the internet has made it easier for anyone to just dress up in sexy clothes and take pictures of themselves ands ay they're a dominatrix without really thinking about what that means.

[<*)))><]

First off, she's clearly the exception to the rule but I think the people who produced those films are making more than she and they aren't really dealing with as much of the stigma.

Secondly, there's a pay scale in pornography where, at some point if you aren't a big name, you make less and less unless you're willing to do more and more degrading acts so I think the idea that it's "okay" because she's making bank is ridiculous.





Yes, the fact that owners make more than workers for not doing that much is why I don't like capitalism, but you drew a great false analogy there because musicians aren't being degraded as often in their line of work as porn stars and there isn't a stigma attached to being a musician.
Find proof of that because I'm pretty sure you can paid more to be the talent then to direct it. And if anything pornography is degrading to men it makes all men look like they are on heroin and they are willing to be paid 1/10 of the women makes. So how do you feel about modeling? They have the same thing where if they get older get paid less and less.

[x togepi x]

What are people's opinions on amateur porn? Do we not really care about what people do with it since it isn't technically isn't a 'business'?

it still reinforces all of those negative stereotypes and whatnot but it could be less exploitative than professional pornography. I don't really think about amateur porn that much because my lady negates the need for it.

i mean people should be able to make porn. i just don't think people should be paying for it given all the bullshit entailed with it.

[Ben09]

She seems to be making a lot off porn. (http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0704/124.html) Men in porn make about a few hundred a shoot unless doing gay porn then they can make a few thousand. Women make a few thousand regardless and a bigger name can make into the six digits per shoot.

That b/s.

[x togepi x]

Find proof of that because I'm pretty sure you can paid more to be the talent then to direct it.

Fine. Forget the director. The guy owning the porn company is making more money than the actress since he's the owning the company that produces the porn. My proof is basic capitalism. Your actress makes a ton of money because people are willing to pay her six figures because she makes profitable films. This means they'll pay her big bucks because they know they'll make more than they pay.


And if anything pornography is degrading to men it makes all men look like they are on heroin and they are willing to be paid 1/10 of the women makes.

men make less because they aren't the stars (and possibly because there are more men willing to be in porn). your claim here is like whining that an extra in The Dark Knight is being mistreated because they're making less money than Christian Bale.

it could be degrading to men in certain ways but male porn stars are still treated by society better than women are, so women still deal with more degradation even if they are better paid.


So how do you feel about modeling? They have the same thing where if they get older get paid less and less.

most of my arguments against pornography apply to modeling though it is easier for models to brand themselves, which means they can make money based off their name as they get older while porn stars can't as easily.

[caveBEAR]

it still reinforces all of those negative stereotypes and whatnot but it could be less exploitative than professional pornography. I don't really think about amateur porn that much because my lady negates the need for it.

i mean people should be able to make porn. i just don't think people should be paying for it given all the bullshit entailed with it.

There's been a bump of people/ladies/couples using webcams and Paypal to actually sell 'subscriptions' to their 'shows'. How do you feel about that, given that there isn't someone else behind the scenes (and whatnot) and in most of these I've seen, the girl (if it's a couple) runs the show. The guy usually still looks shocked he's getting laid.

[Matt Chylak]

What are people's opinions on amateur porn? Do we not really care about what people do with it since it isn't technically isn't a 'business'?

it's free expression. i supposed if you're not trying to sell me on something than i'm not really interested in the politics of it.

[x togepi x]

There's been a bump of people/ladies/couples using webcams and Paypal to actually sell 'subscriptions' to their 'shows'. How do you feel about that, given that there isn't someone else behind the scenes (and whatnot) and in most of these I've seen, the girl (if it's a couple) runs the show. The guy usually still looks shocked he's getting laid.

i mean, most of my arguments still apply, like, i'm sure those women get a lot of shit for it in the real world but hey, if they're getting paid good for them.

[caveBEAR]

i mean, most of my arguments still apply, like, i'm sure those women get a lot of shit for it in the real world but hey, if they're getting paid good for them.

I don't know, if you're smart enough to not tell everyone about it, it seems like these people can keep it pretty anonymous. It's not like they advertise to their friends and neighbors.

/semi-offtopic

/heh heh, 'semi'

[x togepi x]

I don't know, if you're smart enough to not tell everyone about it, it seems like these people can keep it pretty anonymous. It's not like they advertise to their friends and neighbors.

/semi-offtopic

/heh heh, 'semi'

yeah, I mean, it's possible. my girlfriend has a friend who has a super secret site of some sort like that but you also know how easy it is to dig up dirt on people using the internet so there's that.

[Lueda Alia]

A man fucks a woman, and not the other way around (most of the time). Men are bigger, stronger, and the testosterone that pumps during sex makes us aggressive and dominant. It's just written in our chromosomes. Porn has done nothing but expand these dynamics so that there's a supply for any kind of demand. Naturally, a woman engaging in sex is surrendering her body to someone else, it's sexy for them. Why do you think big muscles are so attractive to women? They wanna be handled.
I don't even know where to begin with this, but you are flat-out wrong.

I'll just say that I can't remember the last that time I felt like I was "surrendering" my body during sex. So since you're using the biology argument, then I must be a man, as are other girls who feel the same way I do, eh?

Also, I do not find big muscles attractive at all. Quite the opposite, actually.

[IntoTheSun]

I don't even know where to begin with this, but you are flat-out wrong.

I'll just say that I can't remember the last that time I felt like I was "surrendering" my body during sex. So since you're using the biology argument, then I must be a man, as are other girls who feel the same way I do, eh?

Yes
Also, I do not find big muscles attractive at all. Quite the opposite, actually.

And yes. I find it ridiculous how modern culture has painted such a grossly exaggerated ideal that men have to be muscular in order to look attractive and assert their masculinity and whatnot.

[Lueda Alia]

Yes


And yes. I find it ridiculous how modern culture has painted such a grossly exaggerated ideal that men have to be muscular in order to look attractive and assert their masculinity and whatnot.
I personally find that so unattractive.

[EasySkankin]

I don't even know where to begin with this, but you are flat-out wrong.

I'll just say that I can't remember the last that time I felt like I was "surrendering" my body during sex. So since you're using the biology argument, then I must be a man, as are other girls who feel the same way I do, eh?

Also, I do not find big muscles attractive at all. Quite the opposite, actually.

Well I wasn't talking about what Lueda Alia likes, obviously it's a generalization, and I commend you for your tastes. However, there is a science to how the majority of people spark attraction in one another, and there are many traits that are deemed attractive; It just so happens that when it comes to sex, women (insert generalization disclaimer here) prefer muscular men(and i'm not talking like schwarzenneggar in his prime, just well-built men). (src (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSEIC04599320070710) src (http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/004383.html) src (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17244-hunks-get-more-sex-but-theres-a-price-to-pay.html))

But regardless, my point remains the same. From a biological standpoint sex is more often than not an aggressive act. Obviously people can get as soft-core as they want but naturally the closer a man gets to climax the more compelled he is to be aggressive. I think it's just silly that people complain about porn being too aggressive. Lots of guys love that, myself included.

[IntoTheSun]

Nope, you're wrong.

[Lueda Alia]

Well I wasn't talking about what Lueda Alia likes, obviously it's a generalization, and I commend you for your tastes. However, there is a science to how the majority of people spark attraction in one another, and there are many traits that are deemed attractive; It just so happens that when it comes to sex, women (insert generalization disclaimer here) prefer muscular men(and i'm not talking like schwarzenneggar in his prime, just well-built men). (src (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSEIC04599320070710) src (http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/004383.html) src (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17244-hunks-get-more-sex-but-theres-a-price-to-pay.html))

But regardless, my point remains the same. From a biological standpoint sex is more often than not an aggressive act. Obviously people can get as soft-core as they want but naturally the closer a man gets to climax the more compelled he is to be aggressive. I think it's just silly that people complain about porn being too aggressive. Lots of guys love that, myself included.
Your "generalizations" are extremely sexist. But after reading through this thread, it looks like other people already pointed out the flaws in your argument.

I find your choice of words (i.e. "surrendering") extremely offensive. I don't see how any female wouldn't, unless they think that rape is acceptable, because sex involves mutual agreement, thus no one "surrenders" their body in the process.

[x togepi x]

Well I wasn't talking about what Lueda Alia likes, obviously it's a generalization, and I commend you for your tastes. However, there is a science to how the majority of people spark attraction in one another, and there are many traits that are deemed attractive; It just so happens that when it comes to sex, women (insert generalization disclaimer here) prefer muscular men(and i'm not talking like schwarzenneggar in his prime, just well-built men). (src (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSEIC04599320070710) src (http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/004383.html) src (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17244-hunks-get-more-sex-but-theres-a-price-to-pay.html))


But regardless, my point remains the same. From a biological standpoint sex is more often than not an aggressive act. Obviously people can get as soft-core as they want but naturally the closer a man gets to climax the more compelled he is to be aggressive. I think it's just silly that people complain about porn being too aggressive. Lots of guys love that, myself included.

You're right in saying that we can use science to determine what is generally attractive, however, your reasoning for why muscles are attractive is offensive. I would think, and i'm not a woman so I don't know this for sure, that the reason women tend to think muscles are attractive is that they're a sign that the person having them takes care of themselves/is physically fit, not because women want to be thrown around. The evolutionary logic being you would want someone who's fit since they would serve a function as a hunter/gatherer which would make it possible to take care of children, not because women are evolutionarily submissive.

as for your point about sex being aggressive....i'm sorry to say this, but if you can't get someone off without ramming their vagina to hell, you're probably really bad at it.

[Lueda Alia]

You're right in saying that we can use science to determine what is generally attractive, however, your reasoning for why muscles are attractive is offensive. I would think, and i'm not a woman so I don't know this for sure, that the reason women tend to think muscles are attractive is that they're a sign that the person having them takes care of themselves/is physically fit, not because women want to be thrown around. The evolutionary logic being you would want someone who's fit since they would serve a function as a hunter/gatherer which would make it possible to take care of children, not because women are evolutionarily submissive.

as for your point about sex being aggressive....i'm sorry to say this, but if you can't get someone off without ramming their vagina to hell, you're probably really bad at it.
Bingo.

This is what we're actually discussing in my Psychology class as well. It has absolutely nothing to do with women wanting to be with someone that is (more) "aggressive." I just don't even really know where to begin with that argument; sexist comments like that irritate me to no end.

[GeeBee]

Also, I do not find big muscles attractive at all. Quite the opposite, actually.

Like, say...
http://www.newstalk980.com/files/u38/Chippendale_20skit.jpg

[Lueda Alia]

Like, say...
http://www.newstalk980.com/files/u38/Chippendale_20skit.jpg
Oh, you know it.

[KingsCrossing]

You're right in saying that we can use science to determine what is generally attractive, however, your reasoning for why muscles are attractive is offensive. I would think, and i'm not a woman so I don't know this for sure, that the reason women tend to think muscles are attractive is that they're a sign that the person having them takes care of themselves/is physically fit, not because women want to be thrown around. The evolutionary logic being you would want someone who's fit since they would serve a function as a hunter/gatherer which would make it possible to take care of children, not because women are evolutionarily submissive.

as for your point about sex being aggressive....i'm sorry to say this, but if you can't get someone off without ramming their vagina to hell, you're probably really bad at it.

Pretty much all of this. It'd also be silly to simplify this matter to just physical characteristics. Personality and a host of other factors (e.g. financial prospects, economic resources, social status, willingness to invest in children, etc.) play into what women find attractive and desirable.

[caveBEAR]

But regardless, my point remains the same. From a biological standpoint sex is more often than not an aggressive act. Obviously people can get as soft-core as they want but naturally the closer a man gets to climax the more compelled he is to be aggressive. I think it's just silly that people complain about porn being too aggressive. Lots of guys love that, myself included.

Yeah man, I agree 100%. If the girl doesn't think she's getting raped, I'm not doing my job properly.
:rolleyes:

Sidenote - who doesn't love sensually climaxing with their parter after a shared, passionate and gentle love-making session, amirite?!

[drt_33]

porn can totally be feminist. in fact, a lot of it is. maybe not on camera, but off camera the girls are calling the shots (pun intended) anyways

[Theseventhson]

I think I'm glad I avoided this one.

[caveBEAR]

porn can totally be feminist. in fact, a lot of it is. maybe not on camera, but off camera the girls are calling the shots (pun intended) anyways

I find that you intended a pun about guys jizzing all over girls in a post about the feminism of porn to be ironic and amusing.

[NotSoRad]

I am in no way a feminist, but I have a love/hate relationship concerning porn. As a woman, I can watch porn and enjoy it, but at the same time I can watch it and be disgusted. I remember having a conversation with my boyfriend about fucked up, degrading acts you see in porn, and he said, "I think it's so hot that a girl will actually let guys do that to her." It made me feel uneasy. The first thought that popped in my head was, "Do I have to do all these degrading things to myself in order to gain male approval?" That's why I think porn can be detrimental to a degree. Sometimes guys and girls start watching at a young age, and start to think that this is how you're supposed to act when you have sex. Girls are supposed to be "I-want-your-cock-in-my-ass-now" sluts and guys are supposed to be aggressive assholes.

[Ben09]

porn can totally be feminist. in fact, a lot of it is. maybe not on camera, but off camera the girls are calling the shots (pun intended) anyways

A select few yes. Then there are some who decide to put a lot of guys on their no list and have hard time getting work.

[Love As Arson]

All women should be feminists.

[The Personist]

All women should be feminists.

So too should all men.

[Love As Arson]

I agree.

[luckykaruba]

So too should all men.

All women should be feminists.

this. Sometimes I have faith in this world.

[Lueda Alia]

All women should be feminists.
I couldn't agree more. It baffles me that some women aren't or don't want to be. I think many of them settle for how things are and are afraid of being judged as "man-haters." It's quite depressing.

[luckykaruba]

I couldn't agree more. It baffles me that some women aren't or don't want to be. I think many of them settle for how things are and are afraid of being judged as "man-haters." It's quite depressing.

Although, I can understand why some women who have been apart of groups that feminism used to oppress itself or ignore may have reservations about labeling themselves with it, but I think the beauty of feminism today is the almost requirement to have an ongoing conversation about the ways to improve itself and check its privilege.

[EasySkankin]

Your "generalizations" are extremely sexist. But after reading through this thread, it looks like other people already pointed out the flaws in your argument.

I find your choice of words (i.e. "surrendering") extremely offensive. I don't see how any female wouldn't, unless they think that rape is acceptable, because sex involves mutual agreement, thus no one "surrenders" their body in the process.
My intention isn't to demean women in any way, i'm just citing biological facts and studies that would suggest that women have a preference when it comes to sexual flings. If those facts just happen to support a "traditional" image of sex relations than perhaps just maybe there is some truth to it. The words I used were purely for expression, and I have no clue how you got rape from anything I said.


You're right in saying that we can use science to determine what is generally attractive, however, your reasoning for why muscles are attractive is offensive. I would think, and i'm not a woman so I don't know this for sure, that the reason women tend to think muscles are attractive is that they're a sign that the person having them takes care of themselves/is physically fit, not because women want to be thrown around. The evolutionary logic being you would want someone who's fit since they would serve a function as a hunter/gatherer which would make it possible to take care of children, not because women are evolutionarily submissive.
My reasoning for why muscles are attractive are the studies I cited. Men with more muscle generally had more sex partners. Where is the offense that I made?

The same field of study also suggests that muscular men do not make the best life partners, so the bold is just speculation. I was never talking about love/relationships, but purely sex and porn in particular. I know the study is somewhere but I have to go to class right now.

Go ahead and bash away at my caricature (reminds me of the good ol days where you'd see nizkor cited on every page), I really don't give a fuck what kind of sex you think I have. If you've got anything substantial to add, with some kind of evidence instead of pure speculation, have at it. Till then, you're a troll.

[Love As Arson]

Asked by researchers to choose the bodies they would most like to have, male college students in a study picked computer images with 30 pounds more muscle than they actually had. Asked to select their most-wanted body from the same computer images, female college students chose men with 15 to 30 pounds less muscle than most males consider ideal. “In other words, the bodies that men already had were closer to what women actually want than what men think they want,” says Harrison Pope, a Harvard Medical School professor of psychiatry who headed the study. “The Leonardo DiCaprio-look out-muscles the Jean-Claude Van Damme-look.” Pope worries that men’s distorted view of muscularity may be a factor in a disturbing situation that has recently been observed — some males who use anabolic steroids to “bulk up” go on to abuse heroin, morphine, and other opiate drugs.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2000/06/men-have-distorted-image-of-what-women-find-attractive/

[caveBEAR]

tl;dr

Till then, you're a troll. <-- ironic

No one was pissed or offended you said girls thought muscles were attractive (they just thought you were wrong); most people here were a little more :squint:-y to the 'women like to be manhandled' bit.

[EasySkankin]

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/004383.html
Frederick and Haselton lead a team that photographed 99 male undergraduates. A panel of independent judges rated the young men on a nine-point scale, with "1" being much less muscular than average and "9" being much more muscular than average. The researchers then asked the men about their sexual histories.



When compared with their less-muscular peers, young men who were more muscular than average were twice as likely to have had more than three sex partners in their lives.
...
In a similar study, Frederick and Haselton asked 60 undergraduate males an additional question: How many affairs had they had with women who already had a boyfriend at the time of the affair? Muscularity mattered here as well. The more muscular individuals were twice as likely as their less well-built peers to have hooked up with someone else's sweetheart.

...

Interestingly, women in the study seemed to be on to muscular men. When presented with six standardized silhouettes of men ranging from brawny to slender, 141 undergraduate women consistently identified the most muscular ones as not only less likely to commit but also more volatile and domineering. In the study, the women rated "toned" guys - the physical type two notches down from "brawny" - as the most sexually attractive.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSEIC04599320070710

He said prior studies concluded a man's desirability was influenced more by his earning potential and commitment. His study found physical characteristics mattered more.
Women were more physically attracted to brawny men, especially for a fling. But when it comes to finding a long-term partner, they tend to pick a regular man over a mate with huge biceps. http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138%2809%2900039-7/abstract



On average, men have 61% more muscle mass than women (d=3), a sex difference which is developmentally related to their much higher levels of testosterone. Potential benefits of greater male muscle mass include increased mating opportunities, while potential costs include increased dietary requirements and decreased immune function. Using data on males aged 18–59 years from the third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey and including other relevant variables, fat-free mass (FFM) and/or limb muscle volume (LMV) are significant predictors of the numbers of total and past-year self-reported sex partners, as well as age at first intercourse. On the cost side, FFM and LMV are strong positive predictors of daily energy intake and strong negative predictors of C-reactive protein and white blood cell count, measures of native immunity.

[x togepi x]

My reasoning for why muscles are attractive are the studies I cited. Men with more muscle generally had more sex partners. Where is the offense that I made?

Your claim that women want to be handled is extremely problematic at best, and at worst extremely sexist, hence everyone jumping all over you about it.

The same field of study also suggests that muscular men do not make the best life partners, so the bold is just speculation. I was never talking about love/relationships, but purely sex and porn in particular. I know the study is somewhere but I have to go to class right now.

Go ahead and bash away at my caricature (reminds me of the good ol days where you'd see nizkor cited on every page), I really don't give a fuck what kind of sex you think I have. If you've got anything substantial to add, with some kind of evidence instead of pure speculation, have at it. Till then, you're a troll.

The rest of this is just a huge appeal to authority fallacy. Cool, you can cite some studies out of their context (do you really believe the authors of said studies would have the same sort of advocacy as yourself?) why should i take their claims to be true when the two women posting in this thread contradict it?

nevermind the fact that it goes against just about everything i've read about feminist thought which, itself, is based on studies. should i just mindlessly post books i've read then?

But even if we take your studies as truth, you make GIANT logical leaps from a claim " that women are attracted to x" of person to "sex is aggressive." I don't need to post anything other than a critique of your logic from a formal standpoint to back up my claim that there's some sexist view at the root of much of your claims.

[GeeBee]

Sometimes I pull my OWN hair during sex. What does that MEAN?

[EasySkankin]

Your claim that women want to be handled is extremely problematic at best, and at worst extremely sexist, hence everyone jumping all over you about it.
That statement of mine is a personal inference from the studies. Muscular men have more sex, and more sex partners (Which I think fairly translates into "Women prefer muscular men for sex", but apparently that's sexist). Why this is can't be said for sure until more research is made, but i'd infer that it has something to do with the kind of sex women prefer in a non-committal context. That's my leap.

[caveBEAR]

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/004383.html

Yeah, I'm sure confidence levels due to body image has nothing to do with the buff guys getting laid more frequently than the tubbies.
:rolleyes:

[caveBEAR]

That statement of mine is a personal inference from the studies, and personal experience. Muscular men have more sex, and more sex partners (Which I think fairly translates into "Women prefer muscular men for sex", but apparently that's sexist). Why this is can't be said for sure until more research is made, but i'd infer that it has something to do with the kind of sex women prefer in a non-committal context. That's my leap.

Your studies probably say more about the girls who are banging random dudes at bars than women in general, as your studies note that the buff men were more likely to have a one night stand than an actual relationship.

[x togepi x]

That statement of mine is a personal inference from the studies, and personal experience.

You can't complain that I'm not offering evidence when you're basically just posting a few studies and then make personal inferences like I also did in response to your studies. We both meet the same standard of evidentiary support (or fail to meet a standard).

Muscular men have more sex, and more sex partners (Which I think fairly translates into "Women prefer muscular men for sex", but apparently that's sexist).

I love the straw man here. My argument isn't that your analysis that women prefer muscular men is sexist (though it is essentialist). My argument was all the other bullshit you add onto it.

When you point to studies and then say things like this:

A man fucks a woman, and not the other way around (most of the time). Men are bigger, stronger, and the testosterone that pumps during sex makes us aggressive and dominant. It's just written in our chromosomes. Porn has done nothing but expand these dynamics so that there's a supply for any kind of demand. Naturally, a woman engaging in sex is surrendering her body to someone else, it's sexy for them. Why do you think big muscles are so attractive to women? They wanna be handled.


You're being sexist. Nothing in your studies provides any logical basis for saying women like to be handled. I gave you a good reason why this attraction could exist on a completely different level. The fact that I could do so shows how there's a huge leap from your premise to your conclusion.

I don't think, regardless of study, that it's possible to really explain what women want as if they're a monolithic group.

[The Personist]

It TOTALLY makes sense that when Howard Roark raped Dominique, she loved it. That's just how women are wired. Thanks, Ayn Rand!

[caveBEAR]

I don't think, regardless of study, that it's possible to really explain what women want as if they're a monolithic group.

Shoes.

[Zeran]

What are people's opinions on amateur porn? Do we not really care about what people do with it since it isn't technically isn't a 'business'?
amateur porn is the best kind.

[Zeran]

It TOTALLY makes sense that when Howard Roark raped Dominique, she loved it. That's just how women are wired. Thanks, Ayn Rand!
hahahah, i laughed so hard at this.

[EasySkankin]

Your studies probably say more about the girls who are banging random dudes at bars than women in general, as your studies note that the buff men were more likely to have a one night stand than an actual relationship.
Precisely.

Thus, "mainstream" porn (iffy using that term since the industry is dying a painful death) usually depicts a random sexual encounter as a built man, an eager woman, and rough sex.

Claiming that this is a sexist scenario is even more sexist than my stance, imo. In my limited experience, the worst sexism comes under the double standard that women shouldn't be promiscuous but men are praised for nailing girls like it's a competition. I'm not read on femenism, but I think women should be able to go out and have as much fun as they want without being criticized.

[caveBEAR]

Precisely.

Thus, "mainstream" porn (iffy using that term since the industry is dying a painful death) usually depicts a random sexual encounter as a built man, an eager woman, and rough sex.

Claiming that this is a sexist scenario is even more sexist than my stance, imo. In my limited experience, the worst sexism comes under the double standard that women shouldn't be promiscuous but men are praised for nailing girls like it's a competition. I'm not read on femenism, but I think women should be able to go out and have as much fun as they want without being criticized.

This is some pretty intense backpedaling for the guy who posted;
Naturally, a woman engaging in sex is surrendering her body to someone else, it's sexy for them. Why do you think big muscles are so attractive to women? They wanna be handled.

I'm not read on femenism

Well, color me 'shocked'. :-0

[Scrandon]

Nobody fucking said that. (Skankin)

[EasySkankin]

You can't complain that I'm not offering evidence when you're basically just posting a few studies and then make personal inferences like I also did in response to your studies. We both meet the same standard of evidentiary support (or fail to meet a standard).

I love the straw man here. My argument isn't that your analysis that women prefer muscular men is sexist (though it is essentialist). My argument was all the other bullshit you add onto it.

When you point to studies and then say things like this:

You're being sexist. Nothing in your studies provides any logical basis for saying women like to be handled. I gave you a good reason why this attraction could exist on a completely different level. The fact that I could do so shows how there's a huge leap from your premise to your conclusion.

I don't think, regardless of study, that it's possible to really explain what women want as if they're a monolithic group.
@bold: that was more directed to Lueda

@underscore: If you're talking about selective breeding, it doesn't hold up because the whole muscle attraction is purely sexual (I stress this a lot, as do the studies). In the modern era of contraceptives, who we find sexy is not the same as who we'd want to have babies/grow old with.

@first paragraph: I wouldn't have said anything if you didn't find it necessary for the ad hominem.

[EasySkankin]

Nobody fucking said that. (Skankin)
... That mainstream porn is sexist?

[Scrandon]

Not only are you making the conclusion that women prefer agressive sex with no support, you're also mistaking correlation for causation in the studies.

Just cause a guy with more muscles had more sex does not mean that muscles were the cause of more sex.
There are many other factors.

[Scrandon]

... That mainstream porn is sexist?
Nobody was arguing against this:
I'm not read on femenism, but I think women should be able to go out and have as much fun as they want without being criticized.

[jawstheme]

This is some pretty intense backpedaling for the guy who posted;




Well, color me 'shocked'. :-0

Hahahaha :-d

[caveBEAR]

Thus, "mainstream" porn (iffy using that term since the industry is dying a painful death) usually depicts a random sexual encounter as a built man, an eager woman, and rough sex.

You know, now that I think about it, you firebombed the entire female gender as essentially wanting to be raped due to the standards and norms of the professional 'mainstream' porn industry, yet completely disregarded the standards and norms of amateur porn, which, shockingly, actually features real people behaving in ways that real people behave.

X-)

[GeeBee]

You know, now that I think about it, you firebombed the entire female gender as essentially wanting to be raped due to the standards and norms of the professional 'mainstream' porn industry, yet completely disregarded the standards and norms of amateur porn, which, shockingly, actually features real people behaving in ways that real people behave.

X-)

I hate it when they degrade and debase the horses.

[EasySkankin]

Nobody was arguing against this:
But that kind of double standard is set if you just label all mainstream porn as sexist because you don't like/agree with the depictions it makes.

You know, now that I think about it, you firebombed the entire female gender as essentially wanting to be raped due to the standards and norms of the professional 'mainstream' porn industry, yet completely disregarded the standards and norms of amateur porn, which, shockingly, actually features real people behaving in ways that real people behave.

X-)
No.

And amateur was already covered pretty well. My argument is strictly on mainstream porn.

[x togepi x]

@underscore: If you're talking about selective breeding, it doesn't hold up because the whole muscle attraction is purely sexual (I stress this a lot, as do the studies). In the modern era of contraceptives, who we find sexy is not the same as who we'd want to have babies/grow old with.

Even if this is so (which i doubt given all the problems there are inherent in studying humans), there's still a HUGE FUCKING GIANT LOGICAL LEAP from "women find muscles sexy" to "women want to be handled." how many times do i have to point this out before you'll address it?

@first paragraph: I wouldn't have said anything if you didn't find it necessary for the ad hominem.

Calling you sexist when you are saying sexist things is not an ad hominem. An ad hominem would be saying "you're a sexist so your argument is wrong." The reason I think your argument is wrong is because you haven't drawn a logical conclusion from your premise. You make giant leaps.

[GeeBee]

Again...I feel like the real victims are the livestock.

[EasySkankin]

Even if this is so (which i doubt given all the problems there are inherent in studying humans), there's still a HUGE FUCKING GIANT LOGICAL LEAP from "women find muscles sexy" to "women want to be handled." how many times do i have to point this out before you'll address it?
I explained my "leap" already, but I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by "surrender" and "handled". Why is this construed as rape? I don't want to go into detail about what I mean but I'm talking about entirely consensual sex.


Calling you sexist when you are saying sexist things is not an ad hominem. An ad hominem would be saying "you're a sexist so your argument is wrong." The reason I think your argument is wrong is because you haven't drawn a logical conclusion from your premise. You make giant leaps.
I was referring to your little remark about my personal sex life. "Against this person".

[GeeBee]

Even if Skankin' turns out to be a full-blown sexist...it still doesn't excuse abusing animals.

[x togepi x]

I explained my "leap" already, but I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by "surrender" and "handled". Why is this construed as rape? I don't want to go into detail about what I mean but I'm talking about entirely consensual sex.

Where have you explained the obvious leap in your logic? All you've done is post some studies and say it's based on personal experience. There's still huge leaps there, and if you're going to call me a troll because i'm not "providing evidence", then I'm going to point out how illogical your claims are, therefore showing you have no evidence either.

I haven't construed handling or surrender as rape, that's other people. I'm taking your claims at face value. What you're saying is that men are aggressive and women surrender. Surrendering is putting themselves in an inherently submissive position, and there's where I call you sexist. That description isn't all sex works and even if you could prove its the majority of sex, there's all sorts of socialization entailed in the activity which calls into question the idea that women want to surrender.

I was referring to your little remark about my personal sex life. "Against this person".

Don't say dumb things like "Sex is aggressive" if you don't want to be called out on it. There's still a relevant point in there, namely that it need not be aggressive to be enjoyable for a woman nor do women want to be handled.

[caveBEAR]

No.

Yes;

A man fucks a woman, and not the other way around (most of the time). Men are bigger, stronger, and the testosterone that pumps during sex makes us aggressive and dominant. It's just written in our chromosomes. Porn has done nothing but expand these dynamics so that there's a supply for any kind of demand. Naturally, a woman engaging in sex is surrendering her body to someone else, it's sexy for them. Why do you think big muscles are so attractive to women? They wanna be handled.

And amateur was already covered pretty well. My argument is strictly on mainstream porn.

You're right, except for all the stuff you said that was generalized to the entire female gender based off of your perceptions of mainstream porn;

A man fucks a woman, and not the other way around (most of the time). Men are bigger, stronger, and the testosterone that pumps during sex makes us aggressive and dominant. It's just written in our chromosomes. Porn has done nothing but expand these dynamics so that there's a supply for any kind of demand. Naturally, a woman engaging in sex is surrendering her body to someone else, it's sexy for them. Why do you think big muscles are so attractive to women? They wanna be handled.

[caveBEAR]

I love that Geebee has peppered posts about beastiality all through this, ha ha ha.

[The Personist]

Easy Skankin' should read some feminist theory.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

All women should be feminists.

I agree, as should men. It doesn't help when conservative opinion leaders like Rush Limbaugh brainwashes his listeners by referring women as "femi-nazis" and the National Organization of Women as "Nags". No surprise that he's been thrice divorced.

[caveBEAR]

Easy Skankin' should read some of his own posts before telling us what he said.

Fixed.