View Full Version : War and Alcohol
brettfavred
10/15/10, 02:01 PM
I have a question: how come a kid can go to war and risk his life for our country at the age of 18 but he wouldnt be able to drink alcohol legally untill he was 21? how does this make sense? so he can put his life in the hands of uncle sam, who doesnt really care what happens but he cant t take his life in his own hands? cuz thats really the only reason why there is a drinking age, because kids would either kill or injure themselves....someone please help me make sense of this....if there is any.....
Simulcast
10/15/10, 02:09 PM
I have a question: how come a kid can go to war and risk his life for our country at the age of 18 but he wouldnt be able to drink alcohol legally untill he was 21? how does this make sense? so he can put his life in the hands of uncle sam, who doesnt really care what happens but he cant t take his life in his own hands? cuz thats really the only reason why there is a drinking age, because kids would either kill or injure themselves....someone please help me make sense of this....if there is any.....
No one trains you in the art of alcohol drinking, so the assumption is that you won't be a total moron anymore by the time you're 21.
Personally I think we should treat alcohol like the Europeans do, although England is ruining my view of this.
brettfavred
10/15/10, 02:11 PM
No one trains you in the art of alcohol drinking, so the assumption is that you won't be a total moron anymore by the time you're 21.
Personally I think we should treat like the Europeans do, although England is ruining my view of this.
yea how do they treat it? and so what if ur trained, people still get killed dont they?
x togepi x
10/15/10, 02:12 PM
we don't care about young people but we care about having warm bodies for the military.
Simulcast
10/15/10, 02:12 PM
yea how do they treat it? and so what if ur trained, people still get killed dont they?
Yes, people get killed in war.
In many parts of Europe there is no drinking age limit. It's also not abused as much as in America because children grow up with it and learn to respect it.
I've never understood this argument by the way, and I hear it all of the time.
Simulcast
10/15/10, 02:13 PM
we don't care about young people but we care about having warm bodies for the military.
I'm pretty sure alcohol kills more Americans every year than serving in the military.
caveBEAR
10/15/10, 02:34 PM
I've never understood the 'if they can fight in wars why can't they drink' argument. They can't drink because they aren't 21. It's illegal. I don't hear anyone crowing about 'how come soldiers can't smoke weed if they can be sent to fight in wars'.
Simply being a soldier does not override the illegality of a controlled substance.
brettfavred
10/15/10, 02:38 PM
I'm pretty sure alcohol kills more Americans every year than serving in the military.
doubt it
brettfavred
10/15/10, 02:39 PM
I've never understood the 'if they can fight in wars why can't they drink' argument. They can't drink because they aren't 21. It's illegal. I don't hear anyone crowing about 'how come soldiers can't smoke weed if they can be sent to fight in wars'.
Simply being a soldier does not override the illegality of a controlled substance.
thats not the argument
Neo Cassady
10/15/10, 02:43 PM
In many parts of Europe there is no drinking age limit. It's also not abused as much as in America because children grow up with it and learn to respect it.
This is why just lowering the drinking age won't curb binge drinking. An entire culture shift would need to take place, as currently too many American parents treat drinking as a taboo. I plan to raise my kids with a knowledge of alcohol and allow them to have wine at dinner when they're teenagers, but as with everything else in life, they're also going to learn moderation.
Fight/drink argument is dumb. OP is probably 19 or 20 and pissed he can't drink legally.
Simulcast
10/15/10, 02:43 PM
doubt it
Really? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6089353/)
I'm pretty sure 75,000 American soldiers aren't killed every year.
Simulcast
10/15/10, 02:43 PM
This is why just lowering the drinking age won't curb binge drinking. An entire culture shift would need to take place, as currently too many American parents treat drinking as a taboo. I plan to raise my kids with a knowledge of alcohol and allow them to have wine at dinner when they're teenagers, but as with everything else in life, they're also going to learn moderation.
That's what my parents did with me. It's a good way to go I think.
x togepi x
10/15/10, 02:45 PM
I'm pretty sure alcohol kills more Americans every year than serving in the military.
Following that logic, it'd be banned for everyone then.
Simulcast
10/15/10, 02:46 PM
Following that logic, it'd be banned for everyone then.
Right, which is why it's a stupid argument.
brettfavred
10/15/10, 02:46 PM
Really? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6089353/)
I'm pretty sure 75,000 American soldiers aren't killed every year.
im pretty sure thats just an estimate, NOT an actual figure
Simulcast
10/15/10, 02:58 PM
im pretty sure thats just an estimate, NOT an actual figure
I don't think you are a real person.
Scrandon
10/15/10, 03:01 PM
The reason the drinking age is 21 is because parts of the brain are still developing for most people, and drinking alcohol causes more harm than usual. If you want to argue about the age people can enlist, that's a different argument, but the drinking age is set pretty well.
Oddpac87
10/15/10, 03:03 PM
I call dibs on the band name "War and Alcohol".
...and yes, that's all I'm contributing to this thread.
Good day to you all.
caveBEAR
10/15/10, 03:08 PM
thats not the argument
Then what's the argument?
It seems to me the argument is that (legally) 18 year old soldiers are not allowed to injest a substance which has been deemed illegal by the powers that be; however, people want to change this due to the soldiers fighting in wars.
This is taking something that is illegal for the general public (anyone under 21) and making it legal due to their circumstance of being in the military. So, by that logic, why aren't we championing for soldiers to be able to indulge in a substance due to their service that's illegal for the general public, such as marijuana?
Sidenote - it's hard for me to take someone serious who's named sendingsextswhilewearingcrocs'ed.
Paulie4star
10/15/10, 03:11 PM
I call dibs on the band name "War and Alcohol".
...and yes, that's all I'm contributing to this thread.
Good day to you all.
Hahaha. Just seen that you last commented on this thread. Glad I checked it out.
I could care less about the drinking age honestly, and I am in the military. If I have to wait until I am 21, so be it. If that's the law, that's the law. Fucking follow it, it's not that hard to understand.
Juan Jose
10/15/10, 03:12 PM
blame MADD
Jake Gyllenhaal
10/15/10, 03:17 PM
I think the OP is just pissed off he cannot legally obtain alcohol
spiffa0
10/15/10, 03:18 PM
I didn't have a problem waiting until I was 21. There are always ways to get around things
captivewear
10/15/10, 03:22 PM
Wana know why 18 year olds can't drink legally?
Because young people don't vote.
Only way to change things is voting.
x togepi x
10/15/10, 03:39 PM
Wana know why 18 year olds can't drink legally?
Because young people don't vote.
Only way to change things is voting.
yeah....that doesn't work because politicians are old people and pander to the issues of old people.
perceptrons
10/15/10, 03:47 PM
If I can fight a war, I should be able to be president too.
<*)))><
10/15/10, 03:50 PM
And I want an autobot but that isn't happening
zion the lion
10/15/10, 03:52 PM
Next there's gonna be a thread about war and marijuana.
So sick of the "I can go to war but not drink" argument.
Sunken In
10/15/10, 04:04 PM
A drinking age of 21 just makes it more taboo and people want to do it regardless.
Pretty much everyone drinks before they're 21, right?
So whatever.
/barely even on topic rant
Paulie4star
10/15/10, 04:04 PM
So sick of the "I can go to war but not drink" argument.
Haven't seen any posts in the EPL forum from you in a while, I haven't been looking I just can't recall any recent ones. Are you going to watch the Spurs match tomorrow? Everyone else can disregard this, haha.
brettfavred
10/15/10, 04:05 PM
I don't think you are a real person.
ur fuckin stupid
Haven't seen any posts in the EPL forum from you in a while, I haven't been looking I just can't recall any recent ones. Are you going to watch the Spurs match tomorrow? Everyone else can disregard this, haha.
Unfortunately I've been pretty busy so I haven't been in there lately. And yes, I'll be watching the match (and probably posting as well). COYS.
Paulie4star
10/15/10, 04:07 PM
Unfortunately I've been pretty busy so I haven't been in there lately. And yes, I'll be watching the match (and probably posting as well). COYS.
That's the spirit!
brettfavred
10/15/10, 04:10 PM
we don't care about young people but we care about having warm bodies for the military.
wwooww thats an awesum answer
x togepi x
10/15/10, 04:19 PM
i always forget that i can't be president yet.
loveisdead
10/15/10, 04:19 PM
I hate trolls.
Simulcast
10/15/10, 04:20 PM
Yup, he's not real.
loveisdead
10/15/10, 04:21 PM
Yup, he's not real.
I think I banned him awhile ago for something he did in the sports forum. I can't remember.
zion the lion
10/15/10, 04:55 PM
A drinking age of 21 just makes it more taboo and people want to do it regardless.
Pretty much everyone drinks before they're 21, right?
So whatever.
/barely even on topic rant
I had my first drink at 11. Does that mean we should lower the age to 11 or even beat them to the punch by lowering it to 10?
saysmydoctor
10/15/10, 04:58 PM
I had my first drink at 11. Does that mean we should lower the age to 11 or even beat them to the punch by lowering it to 10?
I stand corrected, this is the dumbest contribution you've ever fucking made to any thread on this forum. Jesus fucking Christ.
zion the lion
10/15/10, 05:01 PM
I stand corrected, this is the dumbest contribution you've ever fucking made to any thread on this forum. Jesus fucking Christ.
You're right, posted before I was finished. Is that any reason to quote me?
Simulcast
10/15/10, 05:01 PM
I stand corrected, this is the dumbest contribution you've ever fucking made to any thread on this forum. Jesus fucking Christ.
Unrelated: My avatar is supposed to be a .gif, but it doesn't make awesome motions like yours. What am I doing wrong?
saysmydoctor
10/15/10, 05:03 PM
Unrelated: My avatar is supposed to be a .gif, but it doesn't make awesome motions like yours. What am I doing wrong?
No idea. I think I just got lucky.
caveBEAR
10/15/10, 05:06 PM
I stand corrected, this is the dumbest contribution you've ever fucking made to any thread on this forum. Jesus fucking Christ.
I banged my first hooker while on meth at only 15; why don't we just legalize meth and hookers?
zion the lion
10/15/10, 05:08 PM
I banged my first hooker while on meth at only 15; why don't we just legalize meth and hookers?
how much aids do you have?
caveBEAR
10/15/10, 05:23 PM
thats not the argument
I know you're a troll and all, and your profile hints towards an IQ of ~ >30, but am I ever going to get a response from you?
Oddpac87
10/15/10, 05:23 PM
I banged my first hooker while on meth at only 15; why don't we just legalize meth and hookers?
Finally someone making some sense in here.
Finally someone making some sense in here.
LOL god dammit
saysmydoctor
10/15/10, 05:35 PM
:wallbash:
brettfavred
10/15/10, 05:38 PM
I know you're a troll and all, and your profile hints towards an IQ of ~ >30, but am I ever going to get a response from you?
oh sorry, i dont usually respond to arrogant pussy's that think they know what their talking bout but cant even grasp the question, and lookin at my profile? wow usually pusses like you creep on girls not guys but i guess ur on the other side of the fence
saysmydoctor
10/15/10, 05:42 PM
Of course you take your username from a tool.
caveBEAR
10/15/10, 05:49 PM
oh sorry, i dont usually respond to arrogant pussy's that think they know what their talking bout but cant even grasp the question, and lookin at my profile? wow usually pusses like you creep on girls not guys but i guess ur on the other side of the fence
Ha ha ha ha ha, then what was the question? I believe it was, 'why can 18 year old's go to war but not drink'. I told you it was because the substance is still illegal for 18 year olds, regardless of their military status. I then turned your question to the logical point when followed, 'if you think 18 year olds should be able to drink since they're in the military, why don't other servicemen/women get the same treatment towards other controlled substances?'
Feel free to answer my question anytime you want, or continue to think I got my rocks off jacking it to your profile pic. Nice aviators, by the way. How's the weather in 2006?
loveisdead
10/15/10, 06:05 PM
Enough
Jake Gyllenhaal
10/15/10, 06:17 PM
Lock it up!
saysmydoctor
10/15/10, 06:25 PM
HjVeazhEug0
loveisdead
10/15/10, 06:35 PM
Lock it up!
Nah I'm not gonna lock the thread. There was a little bit of real discussion on the topic. He's gone now though.
Dustin Harkins
10/15/10, 06:45 PM
I'm pretty sure you can't become addicted to war.
Although I still think that the law should allow alcohol consumption at whatever age you're allowed to live on your own. It's probably better for us in the end that the law requires waiting till 21, but really, it'd be logical.
Jake Gyllenhaal
10/15/10, 06:54 PM
Nah I'm not gonna lock the thread. There was a little bit of real discussion on the topic. He's gone now though.
It is a valid discussion though in my opinion. Lately, as some college officials have seem to suggest lowering the drinking age is an effort to curb the thrill of underage drinking on campuses, I feel as though lowering the age will lead to more access for those under 18 to alcohol. I'm perfectly fine with keeping the age restriction to 21.
caveBEAR
10/15/10, 07:02 PM
Enough
....
Yes, sir.
:sadangel:
loveisdead
10/15/10, 07:03 PM
....
Yes, sir.
:sadangel:
No not you. Him.
loveisdead
10/15/10, 07:04 PM
Anyway, I'd be in favor of lowering the drinking age to 18.
caveBEAR
10/15/10, 07:04 PM
No not you. Him.
Oh, ha ha ha. I was gonna say. That last paragraph of mine was a beauty.
Because the government is messed up. The same can be said of cigarettes. If an 18 year old can go out and buy those, why can't he/she buy alcohol?
loveisdead
10/15/10, 07:08 PM
Oh, ha ha ha. I was gonna say. That last paragraph of mine was a beauty.
I'm pretty sure I banned him for a month in the sports forum. I left some sort of message like "take the month off and when you come back stop trolling" under the assumption that if he'd wait the month to come back he wanted to honestly contribute stuff. I was wrong.
caveBEAR
10/15/10, 07:14 PM
I'm pretty sure I banned him for a month in the sports forum. I left some sort of message like "take the month off and when you come back stop trolling" under the assumption that if he'd wait the month to come back he wanted to honestly contribute stuff. I was wrong.
I was really just curious as to which part of my argument made me a 'pussy'.
As well, when will morons realize that 'not being stupid' =/= 'arrogant'?
loveisdead
10/15/10, 07:17 PM
I was really just curious as to which part of my argument made me a 'pussy'.
As well, when will morons realize that 'not being stupid' =/= 'arrogant'?
I think almost all the regulars here come across as arrogant at times.
caveBEAR
10/15/10, 07:19 PM
I think almost all the regulars here come across as arrogant at times.
I'm sure, but it just seems to be the insult to throw out whenever someone has run circles around your argument, much like 'elitist'. Always irked me.
whiterussian
10/15/10, 07:29 PM
The same can be said of cigarettes. If an 18 year old can go out and buy those, why can't he/she buy alcohol?
I felt like being a dick to you, but I'll just get to the point: cigarettes are bad, but on a long term. alcohol is immediately dangerous (to one's self and others, potentially), and everything stems from there.
I'm disgusted when my 14 year old sisters' friends go out and drink shots. And don't even make an effort to hide it. Makes me think everyone else's parents are retarded.
Sunken In
10/15/10, 09:46 PM
I had my first drink at 11. Does that mean we should lower the age to 11 or even beat them to the punch by lowering it to 10?
Yep, you are correct.
I think the drinking age is just fine at 21. It all comes down to parents anyways. Teach your kids to be responsible with it. I know plenty of irresponsible idiots who are 18 so the idea of the drinking age being 18 kind of scares me. Then again, I know plenty of over 21 year old idiots too. Its all personal responsibility. I've never really cared about alcohol, and only had my first drink this year, and I'm 20 years old. So personally, I don't really care that an 18 year old can join the military but can't buy a drink. And yes, the OP sounds like a kid over 18 but under 21 who can't get alcohol for himself.
zion the lion
10/15/10, 10:41 PM
Yep, you are correct.
Hell yes.
Scrandon
10/16/10, 01:25 AM
“research indicates that the brain continues to develop until age 21, and that young brains can be irreversibly damaged by alcohol.”
Why should we lower the drinking age?
secretsociety92
10/16/10, 01:59 AM
No one trains you in the art of alcohol drinking, so the assumption is that you won't be a total moron anymore by the time you're 21.
Personally I think we should treat alcohol like the Europeans do, although England is ruining my view of this.
You should see the type of people who are making alcohol look bad.
troubledbyinsects
10/16/10, 10:56 AM
The drinking age should be 18. No doubt about it.
troubledbyinsects
10/16/10, 10:59 AM
Ha ha ha ha ha, then what was the question? I believe it was, 'why can 18 year old's go to war but not drink'. I told you it was because the substance is still illegal for 18 year olds, regardless of their military status. I then turned your question to the logical point when followed, 'if you think 18 year olds should be able to drink since they're in the military, why don't other servicemen/women get the same treatment towards other controlled substances?'
Feel free to answer my question anytime you want, or continue to think I got my rocks off jacking it to your profile pic. Nice aviators, by the way. How's the weather in 2006?
that's not the argument. the argument is that anybody can make the choice to serve in the military at age 18. why shouldn't drinking at age 18 be legal? the argument isn't just for military personnel being able to drink at 18 just because they're in the military.
saysmydoctor
10/16/10, 11:19 AM
“research indicates that the brain continues to develop until age 21, and that young brains can be irreversibly damaged by alcohol.”
Why should we lower the drinking age?
This is called the "nanny-state."
Posthardcore
10/16/10, 12:07 PM
Chooseresponsibility.org
perceptrons
10/16/10, 12:36 PM
that's not the argument. the argument is that anybody can make the choice to serve in the military at age 18. why shouldn't drinking at age 18 be legal? the argument isn't just for military personnel being able to drink at 18 just because they're in the military.
By your argument, why should the drinking age be lowered, instead of the enlistment age raised?
georgedcc
10/16/10, 12:39 PM
Sort of off topic, but I don't understand how you have to be 16 to have sex (in the Uk anyway) and yet you have to be 18 to watch other people doing it.
x togepi x
10/16/10, 12:41 PM
“research indicates that the brain continues to develop until age 21, and that young brains can be irreversibly damaged by alcohol.”
Why should we lower the drinking age?
Research also shows that most of the food people at is terrible for them and causes all sorts of health problems yet we aren't banning fast food. Why only care about people's health in this one specific situation?
From experience, I think the 21 drinking age causes more harm than good.
troubledbyinsects
10/16/10, 12:45 PM
By your argument, why should the drinking age be lowered, instead of the enlistment age raised?
Because there would be a significantly lower amount of people in the military?
From experience, I think the 21 drinking age causes more harm than good.
Why?
Scrandon
10/16/10, 01:41 PM
Research also shows that most of the food people at is terrible for them and causes all sorts of health problems yet we aren't banning fast food. Why only care about people's health in this one specific situation?
From experience, I think the 21 drinking age causes more harm than good.
1. Slippery slope.
2. It's not just this one situation, there are many more instances in which the government regulates health.
I don't know if outlawing alcohol for minors works, I was pointing to the fact that there is a good reason for the minimum age being 21, if at all.
x togepi x
10/16/10, 03:02 PM
1. Slippery slope.
You clearly don't know what a slippery slope is. Nowhere in my post did i say if we do X, it will lead to Y.
2. It's not just this one situation, there are many more instances in which the government regulates health.
There are, but how many of them are tied to such an absurd situation as this one? I think it's absurd we can put someone in a situation where their health is in danger (war) but won't let those same people drink. Nowhere have you given me a good excuse there. Merely pointing to brain development isn't enough, we could just say that we ought to raise the minimum age to join the military then.
I don't know if outlawing alcohol for minors works, I was pointing to the fact that there is a good reason for the minimum age being 21, if at all.
Why?
The reason I'm going to say it does more harm than good is because I think the fact that alcohol is legal only after most people are well on their own makes it harder for parents to teach children responsible alcohol use. Since there's a good amount of 18 year olds that still live with their parents at some point (either full time or when they're home for college), it is much easier to teach about things like binge drinking.
I think a lack of alcohol education by parents is one of the root causes of a lot of problems when it comes to drinking. The best way to teach children how to drink properly is to actually do it with them. The problem is a lot of parents don't want to do that because it's technically illegal. I think the lack of education is why alcohol is less of a problem in Europe for younger people.
The reason I'm going to say it does more harm than good is because I think the fact that alcohol is legal only after most people are well on their own makes it harder for parents to teach children responsible alcohol use. Since there's a good amount of 18 year olds that still live with their parents at some point (either full time or when they're home for college), it is much easier to teach about things like binge drinking.
I think a lack of alcohol education by parents is one of the root causes of a lot of problems when it comes to drinking. The best way to teach children how to drink properly is to actually do it with them. The problem is a lot of parents don't want to do that because it's technically illegal. I think the lack of education is why alcohol is less of a problem in Europe for younger people.
I can agree with this.
Scrandon
10/16/10, 03:17 PM
You clearly don't know what a slippery slope is. Nowhere in my post did i say if we do X, it will lead to Y.
'If we regulate alcohol, why don't we regulate fast food?' - same thing.
Simulcast
10/16/10, 03:19 PM
The reason I'm going to say it does more harm than good is because I think the fact that alcohol is legal only after most people are well on their own makes it harder for parents to teach children responsible alcohol use. Since there's a good amount of 18 year olds that still live with their parents at some point (either full time or when they're home for college), it is much easier to teach about things like binge drinking.
I think a lack of alcohol education by parents is one of the root causes of a lot of problems when it comes to drinking. The best way to teach children how to drink properly is to actually do it with them. The problem is a lot of parents don't want to do that because it's technically illegal. I think the lack of education is why alcohol is less of a problem in Europe for younger people.
Yes.
x togepi x
10/16/10, 03:24 PM
'If we regulate alcohol, why don't we regulate fast food?' - same thing.
straw man.
My argument wasn't that we should regulate anything (or not). What i was doing was showing you that while there may be good reasons to regulate something, there are other good reasons not to. I thought we'd have a discussion about that, but you decided to name drop logical fallacies and hope I wouldn't call you out on it.
Scrandon
10/16/10, 03:34 PM
straw man.
My argument wasn't that we should regulate anything (or not). What i was doing was showing you that while there may be good reasons to regulate something, there are other good reasons not to. I thought we'd have a discussion about that, but you decided to name drop logical fallacies and hope I wouldn't call you out on it.
Bringing fast food into the discussion overgeneralizes the argument. The two are just not comparable. As for the rest of your argument, I don't have any problems with it, but I'm also not sure that it is a better alternative.
perceptrons
10/16/10, 06:14 PM
Because there would be a significantly lower amount of people in the military?
I know that, but your argument makes no case as to why one should be chosen over the other.
troubledbyinsects
10/16/10, 06:18 PM
I know that, but your argument makes no case as to why one should be chosen over the other.
All I said was that they both should be 18. It would cut down on underage drinking, make younger people far more mature with alcohol, and provide extra tax dollars to the government.
All I said was that they both should be 18. It would cut down on underage drinking, make younger people far more mature with alcohol, and provide extra tax dollars to the government.
Lowering the age to 18 wouldn't automatically make younger people far more mature with alcohol. It does and always has depended on proper parenting.
troubledbyinsects
10/16/10, 06:51 PM
Lowering the age to 18 wouldn't automatically make younger people far more mature with alcohol. It does and always has depended on proper parenting.
And that would help encourage "proper parenting." Like togepi said earlier, when you grow up with alcohol you learn to be more responsible with it when you're an adult and out of the house on your own. For example, in Germany, you're allowed to drink beer and wine at age 14 as long as you're with your parents. At 16, you can consume them/buy them without a parent, and then the legal age to buy hard liquor is 18. Therefore, people grow up drinking around their parents and learn how to use it properly.
caveBEAR
10/16/10, 07:19 PM
And that would help encourage "proper parenting." Like togepi said earlier, when you grow up with alcohol you learn to be more responsible with it when you're an adult and out of the house on your own. For example, in Germany, you're allowed to drink beer and wine at age 14 as long as you're with your parents. At 16, you can consume them/buy them without a parent, and then the legal age to buy hard liquor is 18. Therefore, people grow up drinking around their parents and learn how to use it properly.
That's not how the average family works in America. If we imitated that system, we'd have a bunch of 14 year olds hammering down beer in their bedrooms while eating McDonald's and playing video games, their mother's ignoring them somewhere else.
Simulcast
10/16/10, 07:25 PM
That's not how the average family works in America. If we imitated that system, we'd have a bunch of 14 year olds hammering down beer in their bedrooms while eating McDonald's and playing video games, their mother's ignoring them somewhere else.
You sound like a conservative. :-p
troubledbyinsects
10/16/10, 07:46 PM
That's not how the average family works in America. If we imitated that system, we'd have a bunch of 14 year olds hammering down beer in their bedrooms while eating McDonald's and playing video games, their mother's ignoring them somewhere else.
What I'm saying, though, is if we implemented that then maybe America wouldn't be like that anymore.
caveBEAR
10/16/10, 08:12 PM
You sound like a conservative. :-p
Ha ha, how so?
What I'm saying, though, is if we implemented that then maybe America wouldn't be like that anymore.
What does drinking around the table have to do with a society that doesn't do anything around the table? Being able to drink with your 14 year olds isn't going to reshape the family structure at all.
Jake Gyllenhaal
10/16/10, 08:29 PM
What does drinking around the table have to do with a society that doesn't do anything around the table? Being able to drink with your 14 year olds isn't going to reshape the family structure at all.
If anything, you'll be labeled as "worst parent of the year" award. There's a whole campaign against parents who supply alcohol to kids. American culture is different from Europeans.
troubledbyinsects
10/16/10, 08:32 PM
Ha ha, how so?
What does drinking around the table have to do with a society that doesn't do anything around the table? Being able to drink with your 14 year olds isn't going to reshape the family structure at all.
If someone grows up drinking alcohol responsibly, it's what they'll learn to do as they're older. I'm not saying if we were to change the drinking age to 18 or even 16 that everyone would immediately be super responsible and respectful. It would take years to develop what they have over in Europe. But I guess that's what we get for having such shitty laws for so long.
If anything, you'll be labeled as "worst parent of the year" award. There's a whole campaign against parents who supply alcohol to kids. American culture is different from Europeans.
That's the problem.
x togepi x
10/16/10, 08:41 PM
Bringing fast food into the discussion overgeneralizes the argument. The two are just not comparable. As for the rest of your argument, I don't have any problems with it, but I'm also not sure that it is a better alternative.
it's a counterexample to your inane "well there's obviously good reasons to do it" logic. it's showing how health concerns our often outweighed by other concerns. You can't post that statistic in a vacuum and expect to have the final say.
and as for not being sure it's a better alternative, europe backs me up pretty well.
domotime2
10/17/10, 12:21 AM
Bleh, I agree with the op. The things don't totally coincide, but it is odd that a person is allowed to hold fire arms and fire at other humans for national gain, and not be allowed to buy a coors light when he gets home....because he's not old enough. The OP argument would not make sense if it had to deal with a substance that's completely banned in our country.... but since he's talking about substance that is restricted due to age, the argument is valid.
caveBEAR
10/17/10, 08:56 AM
Bleh, I agree with the op. The things don't totally coincide, but it is odd that a person is allowed to hold fire arms and fire at other humans for national gain, and not be allowed to buy a coors light when he gets home....because he's not old enough. The OP argument would not make sense if it had to deal with a substance that's completely banned in our country.... but since he's talking about substance that is restricted due to age, the argument is valid.
Bullshit. There is little to no difference between the reasoning behind why an 18 year old can't have alcohol and a 47 year old can't have weed. They are both substances restricted by the powers that be. Therefore, it's inane to suggest that just because an 18 year old serves in the military he should be allowed the buy alcohol, but the 23 year old who serves can't buy weed. In both cases you are giving those who serve privileges over civilians.
but it is odd that a person is allowed to hold fire arms and fire at other humans for national gain, and not be allowed to buy a coors light when he gets home.
You don't think it's odd that someone can hold firearms, kill other human beings, but can't come home and smoke a joint in his backyard?
caveBEAR
10/17/10, 09:40 AM
As well, these kids weren't drafted or anything, they enlisted. They can wait 3 years like everyone else.
domotime2
10/17/10, 10:14 AM
Bullshit. There is little to no difference between the reasoning behind why an 18 year old can't have alcohol and a 47 year old can't have weed. They are both substances restricted by the powers that be. Therefore, it's inane to suggest that just because an 18 year old serves in the military he should be allowed the buy alcohol, but the 23 year old who serves can't buy weed. In both cases you are giving those who serve privileges over civilians.
You don't think it's odd that someone can hold firearms, kill other human beings, but can't come home and smoke a joint in his backyard?
no because no matter what your age or status is, weed is a banned substance all together. It doesn't matter how mature or credible a human being is, or how deserving they are of having it, it's a completely banned subtance. Now alcohol is a substance that the powers to be stated should only be allowed for "responsible adults over the age of 21", which is a complete opinion. The government, through some research, has declared that alcohol can only be enjoyed by older people, but this same government doesn't have the same morals when it comes to murder and death, and being mature enough to enlist in an army.
x togepi x
10/17/10, 10:50 AM
As well, these kids weren't drafted or anything, they enlisted. They can wait 3 years like everyone else.
I don't think the argument is that people in the military should be able to be able to drink at 18. I think the argument is that everyone should be. The absurdity comes in when one is considered mature enough to sign up for military service, which is extremely dangerous, but not mature enough to drink.
caveBEAR
10/17/10, 11:30 AM
no because no matter what your age or status is, weed is a banned substance all together. It doesn't matter how mature or credible a human being is, or how deserving they are of having it, it's a completely banned subtance. Now alcohol is a substance that the powers to be stated should only be allowed for "responsible adults over the age of 21", which is a complete opinion. The government, through some research, has declared that alcohol can only be enjoyed by older people, but this same government doesn't have the same morals when it comes to murder and death, and being mature enough to enlist in an army.
I'm at work, so I don't have time to reply to all this right now, but I am just going to point out that the 'opinion' that has banned alcohol from anyone who isn't a 'responsible adult over the age of 21' (which is bullshit, because 'responsible' has nothing to do with being allowed to drink) is also the same as the 'opinion' that weed isn't legal for anyone. Both are opinions, so using the 'opinion' idea to back up drinking at 21 being bullshit really, really, really, negates what you said about weed being illegal.
Will revisit the rest later.
I don't think the argument is that people in the military should be able to be able to drink at 18. I think the argument is that everyone should be. The absurdity comes in when one is considered mature enough to sign up for military service, which is extremely dangerous, but not mature enough to drink.
Could be, but the OP didn't exactly make his points clear. I only brought it back up again because domotime made some kind of comment about how alcohol is different from other substances or something.
x togepi x
10/17/10, 11:31 AM
Could be, but the OP didn't exactly make his points clear. I only brought it back up again because domotime made some kind of comment about how alcohol is different from other substances or something.
Well that's the way the argument is classically presented. The first post was pretty incoherent.
caveBEAR
10/17/10, 11:51 AM
Well that's the way the argument is classically presented. The first post was pretty incoherent.
Maybe it's just me, but I've come across a ton of people who also think that servicemen/women should be exclusively allowed to drink from 18-21, which is an argument that baffles me for the reasons expressed in most posts in here.
I have no idea where I stand on the drinking age being lowered to 18. We have no model to hold up to as per what would happen in America, especially since comparing our culture to the European culture is ridiculous. I, in general, find the 18 or 21 rule for any substance to be kind of pointless, as I never had a problem getting booze, porn, cigarettes or weed when I was pre-18, and have never met someone who couldn't get those things before they were 18 if they wanted them. I feel like the age limits are really just there to scare off the kids who are too pussy to go hunting for the vices, but aren't too much of pussies to pick those items up at a CVS or something. People who really want the items will get them, and people who don't want them aren't going to be swayed by their age. The people really affected here (in my opinion) are 16-17 year olds (for cigarettes and porn) and 16-20 year olds (for alcohol) who don't have older siblings or older friends.
Kozzy333
10/17/10, 02:49 PM
Age 19 drinking age works fairly well in most of Canada. I think that could work in America, high school students (most of them) can't buy alcohol but college/university age students generally can.
x togepi x
10/17/10, 03:10 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I've come across a ton of people who also think that servicemen/women should be exclusively allowed to drink from 18-21, which is an argument that baffles me for the reasons expressed in most posts in here.
really? I've never really heard that.
I have no idea where I stand on the drinking age being lowered to 18. We have no model to hold up to as per what would happen in America, especially since comparing our culture to the European culture is ridiculous. I, in general, find the 18 or 21 rule for any substance to be kind of pointless, as I never had a problem getting booze, porn, cigarettes or weed when I was pre-18, and have never met someone who couldn't get those things before they were 18 if they wanted them. I feel like the age limits are really just there to scare off the kids who are too pussy to go hunting for the vices, but aren't too much of pussies to pick those items up at a CVS or something. People who really want the items will get them, and people who don't want them aren't going to be swayed by their age. The people really affected here (in my opinion) are 16-17 year olds (for cigarettes and porn) and 16-20 year olds (for alcohol) who don't have older siblings or older friends.
I don't know why you think American and European cultures are so different as to think that comparison won't fly. The relevant difference is how drinking is treated in these cultures, and I think a root cause for why drinking is treated differently is the 21 drinking age. Europeans teach their kids how to drink by having wine being a big part of meals. I'm not suggesting we take that model and apply it to the US. What i'm suggesting is that if we lower the drinking age, it'd give parents an incentive to teach their kids how to drink.
I'm not pretending like we're all going to start drinking at the dinner table since you're right, we don't have that kind of dinner culture, but I do think there are plenty of other contexts in which we could teach children. Kids watch sporting events with their parents. Kids have family get togethers. Those are great opportunities for teaching.
I say this in opposition to the current system, where parents teach their kids about drinking generally by lecturing, which kids obviously don't listen to. I think a teenager is going to be more open to listening to their dad/mom who's having a beer with them than the same boring lecture.
Scrandon
10/17/10, 09:22 PM
My parents drank around me all the time. I was able to 'experience' the effects of varying amounts of alcohol without consuming it. It's not like we're completely in the dark about it.
mcm1610
10/18/10, 08:21 AM
Maybe it's just me, but I've come across a ton of people who also think that servicemen/women should be exclusively allowed to drink from 18-21, which is an argument that baffles me for the reasons expressed in most posts in here.
I have no idea where I stand on the drinking age being lowered to 18. We have no model to hold up to as per what would happen in America, especially since comparing our culture to the European culture is ridiculous. I, in general, find the 18 or 21 rule for any substance to be kind of pointless, as I never had a problem getting booze, porn, cigarettes or weed when I was pre-18, and have never met someone who couldn't get those things before they were 18 if they wanted them. I feel like the age limits are really just there to scare off the kids who are too pussy to go hunting for the vices, but aren't too much of pussies to pick those items up at a CVS or something. People who really want the items will get them, and people who don't want them aren't going to be swayed by their age. The people really affected here (in my opinion) are 16-17 year olds (for cigarettes and porn) and 16-20 year olds (for alcohol) who don't have older siblings or older friends.
There were a few natural experiments that lowered the legal age, and if I remember correctly, they gave pretty bleak outcomes. I can't remember how or why I came across them, but I don't have time to look - I'm on my lunch break and have to head back to school, but there are relevant occurrences are out there.
Here's a map of the world's drinking age, if anyone's curious.
http://www.nuffy.net/pics/misc/drinking_age_world_map.jpg
caveBEAR
10/18/10, 08:29 AM
Here's a map of the world's drinking age, if anyone's curious.
They blocked the pic from being viewed, but here's (http://www.nuffy.net/pics/misc/drinking_age_world_map.jpg) the link if anyone's interested.
EDIT: Nevermind. That didn't work either. What'd you do? Ha ha ha ha.
x togepi x
10/18/10, 12:47 PM
My parents drank around me all the time. I was able to 'experience' the effects of varying amounts of alcohol without consuming it. It's not like we're completely in the dark about it.
There's a big difference between "experiencing" something and experiencing something. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that you don't really know what it's like to be drunk until you're drunk. That's why I think parents currently fail because they lecture and then get drunk, coming off as hypocrites which is a big deal to adolescents.
mcm1610
10/18/10, 01:08 PM
They blocked the pic from being viewed, but here's (http://www.nuffy.net/pics/misc/drinking_age_world_map.jpg) the link if anyone's interested.
EDIT: Nevermind. That didn't work either. What'd you do? Ha ha ha ha.
The picture is showing up for me in my post, when I click it, and when I click your link, so I dunno...
x togepi x
10/18/10, 01:19 PM
for what it's worth, it doesn't show up for me either way either.
mcm1610
10/18/10, 01:39 PM
Google Image Search that finds it.. it's the black and maroony one. (http://www.google.com/images?q=map+of+world+drinking+age&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1152&bih=546)
Scrandon
10/18/10, 02:05 PM
There's a big difference between "experiencing" something and experiencing something. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that you don't really know what it's like to be drunk until you're drunk. That's why I think parents currently fail because they lecture and then get drunk, coming off as hypocrites which is a big deal to adolescents.
I know, I'm pointing out that we're looking at somewhere in between knowledgable and completely ignorant. It could be better, but at the same time, it's not that bad.
x togepi x
10/18/10, 02:14 PM
I know, I'm pointing out that we're looking at somewhere in between knowledgable and completely ignorant. It could be better, but at the same time, it's not that bad.
There is a a middle ground, but I don't think the current system of lecturing kids to not drink really does any good, hence why i'm saying parents should drink with their kids to a certain extent.
open mind
10/20/10, 08:07 AM
people under the drinking age tend to have an overabundance of confidence. they think they know it all, drinking included. which turns into overconfidence, which leads to stupid, drunk kids getting behind the wheel, which (sooner or later) kills someones sister,brother, mother, father, aunt, uncle, grandpa, grandma......in other words someone who means much more then a night of teen stupidity.
alcohol is more dangerous then many illegal drugs in my mind......and there's a good reason why dumbshit kids are not allowed to imbibe.......hell, most of the adults i know can't handle it properly.
mcm1610
10/20/10, 08:38 AM
If there were any way to do it, the alcohol and driving ages should be switched around. Ideally we should learn about alcohol and know how your body responds before you have the access to hop behind the wheel of a car.
The problem is.. high schoolers have jobs and sports and nonsense and would like to get around on their own, and then college-age people obviously should be driving, but you can't lower the drinking age below 16 because of it's negative effects, particularly on growth and development.
KnowYourProduct
10/20/10, 09:14 PM
If there were any way to do it, the alcohol and driving ages should be switched around. Ideally we should learn about alcohol and know how your body responds before you have the access to hop behind the wheel of a car.
Yeah, but then that's not fair to the kids who don't wanna drink.
walkonpastme
10/21/10, 12:55 AM
Most bars will allow a minor in if he presents a Military ID.
My friend was 18 when he went in to the military and he said he did a ton of drinking.
saysmydoctor
10/21/10, 01:49 AM
Most bars will allow a minor in if he presents a Military ID.
Mostly because they don't know how to read a military ID.
They accepted my dependent ID and thought I was born in '86. I most definitely do not like 24...hardly look 20.
caveBEAR
10/21/10, 09:16 AM
Yeah, but then that's not fair to the kids who don't wanna drink.
:squint:
No one's forcing them to drink...they just wouldn't drink. When that happens, the kids who don't want to drink aren't drinking, which is about as fair as it gets.
Scrandon
10/21/10, 09:21 AM
The problem is.. high schoolers have jobs and sports and nonsense and would like to get around on their own, and then college-age people obviously should be driving, but you can't lower the drinking age below 16 because of it's negative effects, particularly on growth and development.
Why do you decide the age to be 16 when the majority of studies show that alcohol causes developmental problems until age 21?
My friend was 18 when he went in to the military and he said he did a ton of drinking.
Cool. So do a lot of people, that doesn't mean it's legal.
mcm1610
10/21/10, 07:32 PM
Because that was the other option to raising the driving age, which I already addressed as too difficult.
Jake Gyllenhaal
10/21/10, 07:46 PM
Most bars will allow a minor in if he presents a Military ID.
A close friend of mine is in the Navy and at the time he was 19, he was turned down by showing his military I.D. because it did not indicate a date of birth. Your experiences does not equal the same as others.
Cool. So do a lot of people, that doesn't mean it's legal.
No one is going to arrest an 18 year old soldier for drinking a few beers. Granted, as long as they aren't so intoxicated they are causing harm to others, most of the higher ups don't have time to deal with such a menial situation.
caveBEAR
10/21/10, 08:04 PM
No one is going to arrest an 18 year old soldier for drinking a few beers. Granted, as long as they aren't so intoxicated they are causing harm to others, most of the higher ups don't have time to deal with such a menial situation.
Yeah...except for the people who would, of course.
Scrandon
10/21/10, 08:58 PM
No one is going to arrest an 18 year old soldier for drinking a few beers. Granted, as long as they aren't so intoxicated they are causing harm to others, most of the higher ups don't have time to deal with such a menial situation.
How do you know the extent to which random people who you've never met enforce the law?
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