Holy shit, the government did something right? [Archive]

Charlito Cafe

07/08/03, 09:52 AM

Affirmative Action isn't really about race per se. It's about providing a diverse environment to learn in at an institute of higher learning. You meet various religions, races, backgrounds etc. and Aff. Action is a way to ensure part of this diversity. College is more than grades and tests.

In order for an Aff. Action policy to be implemented, the student must first meet qualifications. Just because they're black doesn't make them more qualified, they just benefit from this policy while selecting from the group of qualified students in order to make up a diverse student body.

Ronin

07/08/03, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
Affirmative Action isn't really about race per se. It's about providing a diverse environment to learn in at an institute of higher learning. You meet various religions, races, backgrounds etc. and Aff. Action is a way to ensure part of this diversity. College is more than grades and tests.

In order for an Aff. Action policy to be implemented, the student must first meet qualifications. Just because they're black doesn't make them more qualified, they just benefit from this policy while selecting from the group of qualified students in order to make up a diverse student body.

They're all qualified, but there's always someone MORE qualified

So when I apply to med school in the fall, something I've been working my ass off for, think about what it would be like to hear "Yes, you were definitely qualified for our school, but we gave your spot to someone with a lower GPA, simply because of the colour of their skin"

It's just racism. The MOST qualified should get in, regardless of skin colour. If someone of a different race has better grades than me, then they should get the spot over me.

I agree that something has to be done to bring everyone to an equal playing field, but I don't think Affirmative Action is the solution. What is? I have no idea.

But I agree that a culturally diverse campus is an asset. My roommate during my first year was from Ghana, and he was awesome.

Charlito Cafe

07/08/03, 10:09 AM

This is one of those arguments that goes round and round...:D

I stick by race as a factor, because race has a profound influence on your upbringing, despite the opinion that the 14th Amendment fixed everything. Generally, once you get into the qualified section, the GPA's are going to be relatively the same, some a little lower, some a little higher but nothing insanley different, (even more so for med school because those applicants are the top of the top of the barrel). Race should be one of many factors, not solely merit, in order to insure a diverse campus. It's not like they're saying "He's black, that's an automatic entry." I'm pretty sure that guy worked his ass off to get there too.

EmoMoose86

07/08/03, 02:13 PM

Well, I think its right that colleges... institutes... companies should be diverse...
I never really thought much about Aff Action indepth untill recently...
UT (University of Texas - Austin) has adopted Aff Action, where i'd like to go to school.

Personally- I think admissions should dismiss and not ask for
1) race
2) sex
3) income/money etc (although when do they ask that? haha)
But ask for how well YOU do in school, what your acheivements have been etc etc.

That to me is an even playing feild....

Charlito Cafe

07/08/03, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by EmoMoose86
Well, I think its right that colleges... institutes... companies should be diverse...

But race, sex, and income can be factors in determining how the person will contribute to a diverse student body.

Sure, it's mainly based off of achievement, but once you get into the ambiguous area where everyone's qualified about the same, those three things can help decide who will contribute to the campus more.

Wouldn't worry bout the UT thing if you're in the top ten percent of your class. They have to accept you then.

NOFXdesendents5

07/08/03, 02:33 PM

Yeah! Giving one race an unjust advantage over an other is a definate way to stop racism!

Charlito Cafe

07/08/03, 02:34 PM

It's not unjust, Scallea(Heh heh, Supreme Court joke.) It's increasing diversity in the pool of qualified applicants. THERE'S MORE TO IT THAN GRADES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOFXdesendents5

07/08/03, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
It's not unjust, Scallea(Heh heh, Supreme Court joke.) It's increasing diversity in the pool of qualified applicants. THERE'S MORE TO IT THAN GRADES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Than what qualifies you for getting into college then? From what you liberals say it sounds like your sex and skin color are what desides your chances of getting in.

I guess I just better stop trying right now because I am white, straight, and male, and the effort I put into things nolonger qualifies me for getting me into college.

Charlito Cafe

07/08/03, 02:45 PM

Where are you getting the idea that Affirmative Action is creating this massive injustice. Qualified white guys are still getting in. Affirmative Action is making sure it's not ALL qualified white guys. If colleges with Affirmative Action were disproportionatly(sp?) black, it'd be unjust. But they're not. Affirmative action draws from the pool of ALREADY QUALIFIED people. They can't take all, so they take the one's that'll make the most diverse campus, meaning some of the overabundance of white guys get cut out, and disgruntled. Oh shit. Go to college somewhere else. You're not going to die if you get rejected from one place.

NOFXdesendents5

07/08/03, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
Affirmative Action is making sure it's not ALL qualified white guys.]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Its making sure qualified white guys dont get in. I may even put this in my signature...

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
[B]Affirmative action draws from the pool of ALREADY QUALIFIED people.

If they were truely qualified, they wouldn't need those extra points now would they?

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
Go to college somewhere else. You're not going to die if you get rejected from one place.

Say I was going to Harvard. I got in, but because of Affirmitive Action's great way of making everything equal, I don't get let in. I deserved to get in, but I didn't because some dumbfucks decided by making sure I didn't get into a school I worked my ass off to get into, an unqualified person who didn't work as hard as I did gets in cause of their skin. Yeah, thats great. I go to shit Yale, home of Bush, and some other dude gets into Awesome McSchool.

Matthew

07/08/03, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by NOFXdesendents5
I couldn't have said it better myself. Its making sure qualified white guys dont get in. I may even put this in my signature...

If they were truely qualified, they wouldn't need those extra points now would they?

Say I was going to Harvard. I got in, but because of Affirmitive Action's great way of making everything equal, I don't get let in. I deserved to get in, but I didn't because some dumbfucks decided by making sure I didn't get into a school I worked my ass off to get into, an unqualified person who didn't work as hard as I did gets in cause of their skin. Yeah, thats great. I go to shit Yale, home of Bush, and some other dude gets into Awesome McSchool.

1 - if you go to college with all rich white kids, i dont care where you are, you did not learn anything. diversity is a much better teacher than some smarmy professor.

2- if you are THAT MUCH more qualified liek you claim all the white guys are, the extra points wont make taht much of a difference. they dont make enough difference to negate everythign else.

3-Boo-hoo. you went to yale. get over it. you get to go to yale with a divere class and youa ctually learn soemthign and grow as a person .isnt that what college and education are about?

Charlito Cafe

07/09/03, 06:17 AM

They can't take all of the qualified people. There are simply too many. Just because there's a black guy doesn't mean he's less qualified than you because he's benefiting from Affirmative Action. I agree, the point system was ridiculous. That's why the Supreme Court overruled it. But race is considered in order to select from the pool of qualified applicants, because taking everyone who meets the requirements would cause overcrowding. They have to be qualified to benefit from Aff. Action.

WithStamin

07/09/03, 06:41 AM

But a black kid whose family makes $100,000 a year with a 3.3 GPA will get in before a white kid whose family makes $100,000 a year with a 3.5. That's why affirmative action is unfair. It doesn't help people who are necessarily disadvantaged, just blacks because they are black. That's called racism.

Charlito Cafe

07/09/03, 06:45 AM

I guess it depends on your view of college and the admissions proccess. Your basing it solely on merit, while the admissions board realizes that a GPA and SAT scores may not reflect truly what kind of student a person is. Race, sex, religion, and the sort can help determine the kind of person they are, which is crucial in the admissions process. It's not just about grades and scores and classrooms, its about how you interact with others, and how you can contribute to a diverse campus.

Matthew

07/09/03, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by WithStamin
But a black kid whose family makes $100,000 a year with a 3.3 GPA will get in before a white kid whose family makes $100,000 a year with a 3.5. That's why affirmative action is unfair. It doesn't help people who are necessarily disadvantaged, just blacks because they are black. That's called racism.

but the odds are that the class already has an abundance of white students. adding that black guy will create amore diverse atmosphere, add another viewpoint to the classroom discussions, and give a perspective that a class of all whites would not have access to.

dont get me worng. i think the whole AA to compensate for past injustices thing is bull. i support AA only in the interests of pluralism. otherwise scholarships should be need-based.

i wrote this all earlier right after the decision by the supreme court. it was called "affirmative action and pluralism".

BrandNewDream

07/09/03, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by Ronin
They're all qualified, but there's always someone MORE qualified

So when I apply to med school in the fall, something I've been working my ass off for, think about what it would be like to hear "Yes, you were definitely qualified for our school, but we gave your spot to someone with a lower GPA, simply because of the colour of their skin"

It's just racism. The MOST qualified should get in, regardless of skin colour. If someone of a different race has better grades than me, then they should get the spot over me.

I agree that something has to be done to bring everyone to an equal playing field, but I don't think Affirmative Action is the solution. What is? I have no idea.

But I agree that a culturally diverse campus is an asset. My roommate during my first year was from Ghana, and he was awesome.

I agree with Ronin. I'll add something I wrote here: http://forum.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18601

"I do not believe that minorities should gain an advantage simply because of race or nationality, as done in U of Michigan's "points" system. People may read that sentance and see me as a racist, however my view on this is double sided. Yes, it is true that I do not believe that minorities should recieve special considerations. I believe that a university should have its admission requirements, and that's that. My view, however, considers the minorities in question. If I were a black man working at a prestigious company, such as Merrill Lynch or Solomon Smith Barney, for example, I would bet that a lot of my co-workers would think that I'm there because of affirmative action. What people like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton don't sometimes realize is that they're demeaning their people by doing some of the things they do. Sure, it affords blacks more opportunity within the world, but it sacrifices one of the most important values a man can have: pride. Yes, I agree that experience is necessary for learning about other cultures. But I think that the methods we use to achieve this diversity should be re-visited."

Ronin

07/09/03, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
I guess it depends on your view of college and the admissions proccess. Your basing it solely on merit, while the admissions board realizes that a GPA and SAT scores may not reflect truly what kind of student a person is. Race, sex, religion, and the sort can help determine the kind of person they are, which is crucial in the admissions process. It's not just about grades and scores and classrooms, its about how you interact with others, and how you can contribute to a diverse campus.

Universities are academic institutions, they aren't there to teach you life skills. If I have a higher GPA, I deserve it more than someone with a lower GPA. It's that simple.

Now if the other guy has a lower GPA than me solely because he had to work two jobs to pay his tuition, then that's not fair, but it's not a problem we'll fix by changing admissions procedures in university, it's something we can change through social reform.

And people earlier were saying that once you reach a certain bracket, everyone is equally qualified. All I'm going to say is that clearly none of you are actually in university, because that's utter horse shit.

NOFXdesendents5

07/09/03, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Matthew
1 - if you go to college with all rich white kids, i dont care where you are, you did not learn anything. diversity is a much better teacher than some smarmy professor.

2- if you are THAT MUCH more qualified liek you claim all the white guys are, the extra points wont make taht much of a difference. they dont make enough difference to negate everythign else.

3-Boo-hoo. you went to yale. get over it. you get to go to yale with a divere class and youa ctually learn soemthign and grow as a person .isnt that what college and education are about?

1.What the fuck does diversity teach you? That their are different skin tones in the world?

2. If I made it in and some other guy didn't no matter by how many more points, it means I am more qualified and I worked harder. No matter what margin, I got in. The other person didn't. Because I got in, I deserve it. The other person obviously doesn't because they wouldn't have needed those points if they were so smart anyway.

3. I made it into Harvard. No matter how you get around it, I MADE IT INTO HARVARD AND THE OTHER PERSON DIDN'T BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T AS QUALIFIED. Again, what does diversity teach you? That there are some ignorant people out there who think that by making white people not get in to good colleges that they earned and deserved to get into, you can create an equal student body with a percentage of students who were to stupid to get in anyway?

NOFXdesendents5

07/09/03, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Ronin
Universities are academic institutions, they aren't there to teach you life skills. If I have a higher GPA, I deserve it more than someone with a lower GPA. It's that simple.

Now if the other guy has a lower GPA than me solely because he had to work two jobs to pay his tuition, then that's not fair, but it's not a problem we'll fix by changing admissions procedures in university, it's something we can change through social reform.

And people earlier were saying that once you reach a certain bracket, everyone is equally qualified. All I'm going to say is that clearly none of you are actually in university, because that's utter horse shit.

I sort of agree.

Charlito Cafe

07/09/03, 09:37 AM

1.What the fuck does diversity teach you? That their are different skin tones in the world?
-NOFXdescendents5

The Supreme Court has acknowledged several times that diversity is part of pluralism and is a major goal of evry institutution, public or private, in the United States.

"I do not believe that minorities should gain an advantage simply because of race or nationality, as done in U of Michigan's "points" system."
-BrandNewDream

That's why they ovveruled the points system. It was indeed unconstitutional. The policy of considering race one of many factors for admissions, however, is correct. You guys are acting like there's some huge injustice. Show me the college that has an overwhelming percentage of unqualified black students.

Ronin, I know you are in college, but the way universities look at you is by dividing you into qualified and unqualified, then picking from the qualified students. I just listened to a lecture from a woman who is legal counself for the admissions board at Washington and Lee University. Being "more qualified" is really irrelevant if it conficts with a diverse student body. I stick by my philosophy that getting a liberal education (yes that is the proper term, don't jump on the word liberal) involves more than clasroom smarts.

BrandNewDream

07/09/03, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by Ronin
people earlier were saying that once you reach a certain bracket, everyone is equally qualified. All I'm going to say is that clearly none of you are actually in university, because that's utter horse shit.

I'm not even in university yet (in the fall I will be), but I could tell you the same thing. I've realized it in some of my high school classes. I was in APH (advanced placement honors) American Government, and while some of the kids in there had the grades to be in there, they were clearly not on level with the others. A good bunch of them would talk out of their ass and could not make a coherent point if their life depended on it. Kind of like mrsskibahaha.

Charlito Cafe

07/09/03, 09:52 AM

AHAHAHAHAHAHHAH. mrs.skibahaha is indeed retarded.

It's not all about merit though, but I've said that a thousand times already and no one cares. That's the core issue on this topic, whether it's all about merit, or involves other things, and I think we've hit that point where we're scratching at each other's fundamental views.

yeat182

07/10/03, 04:24 AM

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
.

In order for an Aff. Action policy to be implemented, the student must first meet qualifications. Just because they're black doesn't make them more qualified, they just benefit from this policy while selecting from the group of qualified students in order to make up a diverse student body.

actually, the case against Michigan University was brought up because people who were black were more qualified in their eyes...they were given more "points" on their applications based soley on their race than white people.

yeat182

07/10/03, 04:29 AM

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
But race, sex, and income can be factors in determining how the person will contribute to a diverse student body.

but that simply pigeonholes people based on race, sex, or income....that assumes that black people will contribute a certain thing, or Asians, or poor white trash...that they have a certain stereotype that they expect will contribute to the diverstity of the school, and they overlook that everyone is an individual and that just because someone is black of white doesn't nessesarily mean they will contribute more or less to the diversity of the school.

yeat182

07/10/03, 04:31 AM

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
Race, sex, religion, and the sort can help determine the kind of person they are, which is crucial in the admissions process. It's not just about grades and scores and classrooms, its about how you interact with others, and how you can contribute to a diverse campus.

again, how can race possibly help determine what kind of person someone is? aren't we all supposed to be equal? why should race matter at all? If you want to learn about a person, interview them, ask them personal questions and base your ideas on that, not on the color of their skin or their religion.

Charlito Cafe

07/10/03, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by yeat182
actually, the case against Michigan University was brought up because people who were black were more qualified in their eyes...they were given more "points" on their applications based soley on their race than white people.

That's why the points system was ovveruled. That's not the point. Race is one of many factors, not the sole factor or the main one, unlike that policy implied.

Charlito Cafe

07/10/03, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by yeat182
again, how can race possibly help determine what kind of person someone is? aren't we all supposed to be equal? why should race matter at all? If you want to learn about a person, interview them, ask them personal questions and base your ideas on that, not on the color of their skin or their religion.

Unfortunately, after years of oppression, segregation, and other such factors we aren't all equal. That's just a fantasy. Race plays a HUGE role in who you can turn out to be. Same holds for religion because soceiety holds certain standards, which influence how you interact with other people as a child, and this who you become.

I agree that they should interview you, which is why it saddens me that much less emphasis is being placed on the interivew these days, but the interview plays a much larger role than your race does. Race is a smaller factor,and is not played up as huge as anti-Aff.Action people make it out to be.