Is it morally wrong to enjoy bands like Skrewdriver?

[georgedcc]

First off, for those who don't know, Skrewdriver are a white power racist punk band that were around in the 70s and 80s. I used them as an example, but you could substitute them for any racist band.
So, if we accept that racism is morally wrong, is it morally wrong by extension to enjoy the music of someone that promotes racism?
I don't really have an answer to this one, but I think it would be interesting to hear what everyone else here thinks.

For the record, I don't listen to Skrewdriver.

[0s0]

The guy from that band produced a duo called Prussian Blue, whose songs' subject matter was in the same vein as Skrewdriver. Prussian Blue released an album that had R&B/hip-hop/jazz influences, which wouldn't be a problem except I can only akin the situation to Nazis playing with a dradel.

[incognitojones]

If you like it because of the message then yes probably. But if you didn't speak the same language as a racist band and didn't know they were racist there is no way it could be morally wrong to listen to them. It would really depend on how much you pay attention to the lyrics and ideas.

[E=MCHAMMER]

There is so much great music out there, why would you want to listen to a band that spouts hateful messages?

[georgedcc]

There is so much great music out there, why would you want to listen to a band that spouts hateful messages?

Well, I don't listen to them, they're extremely boring musically, and their message is hateful like you said. I'm just trying to start a discussion about whether listening to them, or any band like them is 'wrong'. Basically, can you separate the music from the message?

[E=MCHAMMER]

Well, I don't listen to them, they're extremely boring musically, and their message is hateful like you said. I'm just trying to start a discussion about whether listening to them, or any band like them is 'wrong'. Basically, can you separate the music from the message?

Sorry, I meant why would anyone want to.
But there are plenty of people who put a lot of stock in the lyrics of the bands they listen to, and therefore their message. I'd say that the racist lyrics are the main "selling point" of Skrewdriver so there aren't many other reasons why you'd listen to them unless you agree with the message.

[G apostrophe Ra]

To me, the argument is similar to the dilemma of appreciating Thomas Jefferson for his social and political theories while condemning the militant racism that informed his governing. Yes, this guy was a brilliant intellect and his contributions to the shaping of American government were pivotal, but he was also a vehement defender of the myth of black inferiority. His disdain for his slaves and black Americans in general wasn't casual, either; he actually bought in to, advocated, and at times invented pseudo-scientific rationalizations for their status as subhumans.

Can you appreciate part of what he represented without endorsing white supremacy? I think you can. But where an example like Jefferson differs from a punk band with morally repugnant social views is his redeeming qualities seem credible enough that overlooking his faults is a justifiable endeavor. A hateful rock band's instrumental prowess probably ain't exactly on par with the Declaration of Independence, and if that's the case, wouldn't it be possible to find a band with a similar sound and a less socially poisonous message?

All of which makes me inclined to say that being a fan of a band with objectionable views may not be wrong, but it's profoundly socially irresponsible at the very least.

[codhoppers]

You're supporting white power movements and racism. With all the different types of music out there, you can definitely avoid this genre and still find thousands of amazing artists without worrying about the moral implications

[foisol]

Most National Socialist music and racist music, in general, is fucking atrocious to the ears anyway. It's like most of these artists spend more time trying to spew hateful messages rather than work on their craft, musically and lyrically.

[secretsociety92]

Yes it is morally wrong, simple as that.

[fredrico0012]

To me, the argument is similar to the dilemma of appreciating Thomas Jefferson for his social and political theories while condemning the militant racism that informed his governing. Yes, this guy was a brilliant intellect and his contributions to the shaping of American government were pivotal, but he was also a vehement defender of the myth of black inferiority. His disdain for his slaves and black Americans in general wasn't casual, either; he actually bought in to, advocated, and at times invented pseudo-scientific rationalizations for their status as subhumans.

Can you appreciate part of what he represented without endorsing white supremacy? I think you can. But where an example like Jefferson differs from a punk band with morally repugnant social views is his redeeming qualities seem credible enough that overlooking his faults is a justifiable endeavor. A hateful rock band's instrumental prowess probably ain't exactly on par with the Declaration of Independence, and if that's the case, wouldn't it be possible to find a band with a similar sound and a less socially poisonous message?

All of which makes me inclined to say that being a fan of a band with objectionable views may not be wrong, but it's profoundly socially irresponsible at the very least.

By that same argument so was Lincoln, the savior of the blacks. He has said that blacks were inferior to whites and they could never coexist and the only solution is to send them out of the country.

[Theseventhson]

I've never heard a racist band that didn't suck completely anyway.

[bandnamexmyname]

I don't seriously believe that any kind of group like that would be good musically.

[StephenYoung]

Well, racist bands focus on sending their lyrical message.
Consider this:
Rise Against is militantly PETA supporters. If you listen to them, do you support PETA? Not necessarily, because they have other messages, and their instrumentation is really good, so there's two reasons you could listen to them.
Prussian Blue are militant Supremacists, all their lyrics relate to that, and their music isn't much different from non-reacist performers which you could listen to anyways.

So in short, yes it's morally wrong.

[heyguys123]

first of all, telling someone it's "morally wrong" for them to listen to anyone say anything is completely absurd to me. listening to a hateful message doesn't mean that you implicitly support the message. if anything, you're just getting insight into the thoughts of someone who you vehemently disagree with, which can only be helpful.

that being said, spending money to support the band is something that i wouldn't be comfortable doing.

[ned.89]

Is it wrong to listen to Christian music if you aren't a Christian?
Stupid thread. if you like it, listen to it. Doesn't mean you agree with everything an artists says.

[Theseventhson]

Is it wrong to listen to Christian music if you aren't a Christian?

Bad comparison.

[secretsociety92]

first of all, telling someone it's "morally wrong" for them to listen to anyone say anything is completely absurd to me. listening to a hateful message doesn't mean that you implicitly support the message. if anything, you're just getting insight into the thoughts of someone who you vehemently disagree with, which can only be helpful.

that being said, spending money to support the band is something that i wouldn't be comfortable doing.
There is a difference between finding out what they say and actually listening to them on a regular basis.

[Andy Young]

If you have the same views as them or not it's perfectly fine to be a fan. I mean, yeah they are pretty much terrible but if they were great musicians I could separate the music from the lyrics and still enjoy it.

Like if BTBAM had that type of subject matter I would still listen because they write incredible music.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

I listen to Boys Night Out but I believe violence against women is morally wrong.

[ned.89]

Bad comparison.

How so? I thought it was dumb to imply that enjoying a band has absolutely any implications on a listener's morality.

[incognitojones]

XAoUhnKz0xE

Don't think it counts if its satirical.

[caveBEAR]

What's up with all these people who are never in the Politics forum finding (and replying to) the Skrewdriver thread super fast?

[InTheatersNow]

Skrewdriver weren't always a racist band. They started as Sex Pistols ripoffs and then some members wanted to go racist and the ones who didn't quit. There first LP and first few singles have nothing to do with the beast that Skrewdriver evolved into.

[Derka Derka]

It's not morally wrong to be ignorant.

[georgedcc]

Skrewdriver weren't always a racist band. They started as Sex Pistols ripoffs and then some members wanted to go racist and the ones who didn't quit. There first LP and first few singles have nothing to do with the beast that Skrewdriver evolved into.

Yeah I know that, Skrewdrive was just an example, you could change Skrewdriver for any racist band and it's still the same point. They're just the most 'famous' racist band I could think of off the top of my head.

[georgedcc]

Is it wrong to listen to Christian music if you aren't a Christian?
Stupid thread. if you like it, listen to it. Doesn't mean you agree with everything an artists says.

Massive difference from being openly Christian and being openly racist. I bet we all have friends who are Christians, I don't know how many of you are friends with people who are openly racist.

That said, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not sure myself, that's why I started this thread just to see what everyone else thinks on the matter.

[corrupt_rocker]

If you like it because of the message then yes probably. But if you didn't speak the same language as a racist band and didn't know they were racist there is no way it could be morally wrong to listen to them. It would really depend on how much you pay attention to the lyrics and ideas.

Yeah, I agree. Listening to a racist band is one thing but agreeing with or advocating their racism is another thing. It's a matter of why the person likes/listens to the music. If it's because they enjoy the hateful messages, then yeah, it's morally wrong.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

What's up with all these people who are never in the Politics forum finding (and replying to) the Skrewdriver thread super fast?


I think the reason is because on the main page on the right, under Forum Feed, it reads "Is it morally wrong to enjoy bands like..." So my guess is that people that frequent music threads saw that title and clicked on it to check it out

[Jimmy_Love]

This is really tricky, I think the problem with this example really lies with Skrewdriver's music being absolutely terrible music message aside. However, it still raises an interesting question. However, I don't think you necessarily have to agree with everything an artist says or does in order to appreciate them. I have a gay friend who pretty much only listens to Eminem and he pretty much disregards the multitude of homophobia in his earlier albums.

[deFobbed14yrs]

What's up with all these people who are never in the Politics forum finding (and replying to) the Skrewdriver thread super fast?

It's on main page.

Oh Jake answered, didn't see that.

[Scrandon]

I think the reason is because on the main page on the right, under Forum Feed, it reads "Is it morally wrong to enjoy bands like..." So my guess is that people that frequent music threads saw that title and clicked on it to check it out
I think they all searched 'white power racist punk bands' in hopes of finding new music.

[tkamB]

Yes it would be wrong because by supporting the band you'd be in turn supporting and spreading the message.

[Love As Arson]

It probably means you are a racist.

[danofthedead]

I listen to Boys Night Out but I believe violence against women is morally wrong.

lol'd


beating bitches up :thumbdwn:
writing killer tunes ABOUT beating bitches up :headbang:

HEY HONEY HOLD MY HAND AND HOPE FOR HEAVEN BECAUSE I JUST CANT HELP MYSELF
EVEN ANGELS END UP BURNED AND BURIED IN MY BACKYARD AND YOU YOU'RE JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE

[Theseventhson]

How so? I thought it was dumb to imply that enjoying a band has absolutely any implications on a listener's morality.

I'm from a Jewish family, if I listen to a band that has Christian lyrics I may not be able to relate to them, but I'm certainly not offended, if I listen to a band with a message about white supremacy, then I would most certainly be offended. Religious connotations =/= hateful connotations.

[jawstheme]

It probably means you are a racist.

Agreed. But does listening to mainstream rap (generalizing but you know what rap I'm talking about) make you sexist?

[jawstheme]

It's not morally wrong to be ignorant.

Is it morally irresponsible?

[twelve2395]

how about this...
have you ever listened a 90% of the music that is on the radio? is it morally right for people to listen and radio stations to play all this music that degrades women... describing them as bitches/hoes/not worthy of respect?

[Sunken In]

Hatebreed.

[Spartan789013]

how about this...
have you ever listened a 90% of the music that is on the radio? is it morally right for people to listen and radio stations to play all this music that degrades women... describing them as bitches/hoes/not worthy of respect?

Absolutely!

Fuck the police.

[G apostrophe Ra]

By that same argument so was Lincoln, the savior of the blacks. He has said that blacks were inferior to whites and they could never coexist and the only solution is to send them out of the country.

I wouldn't call him "savior of the blacks" but I know what you're saying. But Lincoln is in fact a parallel, because many historians still rank him as one of the greatest US Presidents, despite his obviously reprehensible views on the potential for the coexistence of different races. To take it back to the Skrewdriver question, can you do that with a band? Like I previously suggested, perhaps, but the gravity of a President's leadership is the kind of virtue that could overshadow profound character flaws, while "some cool tunes, brah" just don't seem worthy of the same privileges.

[LostAllways]

As long as you're downloading their albums illegally, it's fine.

[zion the lion]

yes it is morally wrong. Chances are, you could easily find a band with the same exact sound and a different message.

[georgedcc]

yes it is morally wrong. Chances are, you could easily find a band with the same exact sound and a different message.

What if you couldn't, would it make a difference? If for example, I found a musically amazing band that literally sounds nothing like anything else, but were unbelievably racist, is it then 'okay' to listen to them?

[Theseventhson]

What if you couldn't, would it make a difference? If for example, I found a musically amazing band that literally sounds nothing like anything else, but were unbelievably racist, is it then 'okay' to listen to them?

I don't understand how you could enjoy it knowing the lyrical content, unless you were racist.

[georgedcc]

I don't understand how you could enjoy it knowing the lyrical content, unless you were racist.

I'm not sure I could necessarily, I have never heard a brilliant but racist band. I don't know if you've seen the film The Triumph of the Will, but I think this is definitely relevant to the thread. It is a Nazi propaganda film made in 1934, Hitler commissioned the film himself. So morally, the film is awful, but technically it was revolutionary, using film techniques that no-one had seen or used before. So I guess you could appreciate it in one sense, but be appalled by it at the same time.

[Love As Arson]

Agreed. But does listening to mainstream rap (generalizing but you know what rap I'm talking about) make you sexist?
Sometimes. But, I think a more comparable comparison a band that advocates male supremacy. Also, why is mainstream rap always targeted for sexism? No one ever references Motley Crue or any number of rock bands who are explicitly sexist.

[jawstheme]

Sometimes. But, I think a more comparable comparison a band that advocates male supremacy. Also, why is mainstream rap always targeted for sexism? No one ever references Motley Crue or any number of rock bands who are explicitly sexist.

I think the proportion of popular rap songs that are blatantly degrading to women to popular rock songs of the same nature is significantly higher.

Crazy Bitch comes to mind when I think of sexist rock songs. That has to be the worst song I've ever heard, even outside of the obvious sexism.

[zion the lion]

What if you couldn't, would it make a difference? If for example, I found a musically amazing band that literally sounds nothing like anything else, but were unbelievably racist, is it then 'okay' to listen to them?

Nope.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

What if you couldn't, would it make a difference? If for example, I found a musically amazing band that literally sounds nothing like anything else, but were unbelievably racist, is it then 'okay' to listen to them?

What if you met an incredible, gorgeous woman with a terrific personality, very funny, smart and instantly she becomes infatuated with you. Would you date her if she happens to think the white race is superior to all others?

[Scrandon]

What if you met an incredible, gorgeous woman with a terrific personality, very funny, smart and instantly she becomes infatuated with you. Would you date her if she happens to think the white race is superior to all others?
That would conflict with the terrific personality.

[Love As Arson]

I think the proportion of popular rap songs that are blatantly degrading to women to popular rock songs of the same nature is significantly higher.
I think this reeks of confirmation bias. I will not argue with the notion that a lot of mainstream hip-hop is sexist. However, I think it is ridiculous to say that rock music, on the whole, is less sexist. There was a whole phase, with nu-metal, which was explicitly sexist. See: Limp Bizkit as an example. And pretty much most pop-punk is sexist to a lesser extent; most of the guys singing blame the woman for the problems or they're seen as an object to retrieve and so on.

[jawstheme]

I think this reeks of confirmation bias. I will not argue with the notion that a lot of mainstream hip-hop is sexist. However, I think it is ridiculous to say that rock music, on the whole, is less sexist. There was a whole phase, with nu-metal, which was explicitly sexist. See: Limp Bizkit as an example. And pretty much most pop-punk is sexist to a lesser extent; most of the guys singing blame the woman for the problems or they're seen as an object to retrieve and so on.

Seeing as to how I don't listen to much of anything you just mentioned I can't really argue a solid point further. I just used rap to point out an example of people listening to sexist music without necessarily being sexist.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

That would conflict with the terrific personality.

But it's just a single attitude that may not be so present. How many friends do you have that you think have great personalities but do not know what their opinion is on racial equality? I don't know... maybe it's a bad analogy.

[georgedcc]

But it's just a single attitude that may not be so present. How many friends do you have that you think have great personalities but do not know what their opinion is on racial equality? I don't know... maybe it's a bad analogy.

I'm pretty sure I know what all my friends opinions on racial equality are. I dunno, maybe I'm mis-interpreting your post, but do you mean its possible that a close friend of mine is racist and I don't realise it?

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

I'm pretty sure I know what all my friends opinions on racial equality are. I dunno, maybe I'm mis-interpreting your post, but do you mean its possible that a close friend of mine is racist and I don't realise it?

I'm just saying that the people you know and respect may have a certain strong attitude that one day you find out about and you disagree with it. I shouldn't have used the analogy since when a band projects white supremacy lyrics, they usually don't make it so subtle.

[georgedcc]

I'm just saying that the people you know and respect may have a certain strong attitude that one day you find out about and you disagree with it. I shouldn't have used the analogy since when a band projects white supremacy lyrics, they usually don't make it so subtle.

Yeah i suppose I know what you're saying, my grandparents might occasionaly say some ummm 'politically incorrect' things, but I still love them. As with yours, this analogy doesn't apply when talking about music though.

[MyBestFiend]

Just because you listen to a band with racist lyrics doesn't make you racist. If you buy a shirt with their logo on it, maybe. If you put the lyrics as your Facebook status, definitely. I'm politically conservative, but Green Day is one of my favorite bands (and please don't let that start another argument). Just because their lyrics advocate liberal views doesn't mean I don't enjoy their music.

[Theseventhson]

Just because you listen to a band with racist lyrics doesn't make you racist. If you buy a shirt with their logo on it, maybe. If you put the lyrics as your Facebook status, definitely. I'm politically conservative, but Green Day is one of my favorite bands (and please don't let that start another argument). Just because their lyrics advocate liberal views doesn't mean I don't enjoy their music.

Voicing certain political stances =/= voicing a racist message.

[MyBestFiend]

Voicing certain political stances =/= voicing a racist message.

I see your point, but lyrics aren't all the band has to offer. If a band has great instrumentals (which Skrewdriver doesn't) I wouldn't let racist lyrics stop me from listening to them. I certainly wouldn't support them though.

[Theseventhson]

I see your point, but lyrics aren't all the band has to offer. If a band has great instrumentals (which Skrewdriver doesn't) I wouldn't let racist lyrics stop me from listening to them. I certainly wouldn't support them though.

I guess being from a Jewish family and having been verbally attacked by supremacists before gives you a different perspective on this subject :shrug:. I can see where you're coming from, though.

[MyBestFiend]

I guess being from a Jewish family and having been verbally attacked by supremacists before gives you a different perspective on this subject :shrug:. I can see where you're coming from, though.

If my personal views were being attacked then I would probably feel differently about it haha.