Better College Basketball Coach . . .

[fire on my lips]

Bobby Knight or Dean Smith?


I personally think Dean Smith. Just because Bobby Knight will have/has more wins and one more national championship (3 to 2), Smith has the better winning percentage and five more final fours (11 to 6).

One could argue that Knight had less talent and that Smith inherited a proven program, but I personally consider Smith to be the better coach. I'm also an incredibly biased Heels fan.

EDIT: Before anyone says Wooden, note I said better and not best.

[iihungrieii]

smith

[dickslapu25]

hmm...it's hard cause I am a red raider myself, but I have to argue that we are a harder school to get talent and like you said his program was already proven. Recruitment out here sucks, but you gotta love Bobby.

[RX XR]

good poll, but i have to go with smith. but b knight still is an amazing coach, though im not a big fan of the way he treats his players.

[dickslapu25]

good poll, but i have to go with smith. but b knight still is an amazing coach, though im not a big fan of the way he treats his players.


knight just demands a lot from his players. He may yell and curse, but past players look up to him as a father figure. He just hates the media and he comes off bad. I mean that chin tap was the most blown up thing ever about something so small.

[bigmike]

Bobby Knight. Dude had half the amount of talent than Dean Smith and has won the same amount of games.

[LeftWideOpen]

Bobby Knight. Dude had half the amount of talent than Dean Smith and has won the same amount of games.

i concur. I think what he did with the talent he had was extraordinary.

[leftstranded]

Bobby Knight. Dude had half the amount of talent than Dean Smith and has won the same amount of games.
agreed. and he graduates his players. that is more important than anything else in coaching

[The Matt Kaufman]

I gotta go with dean smith..even though hes had more talent he still got the egotistical players to play for him..which is hard to do at any level

[FondestMemory]

bobby knight.

did just as much with far less.

and he's just so loveable.

[preppyak]

Bobby Knight. Dude had half the amount of talent than Dean Smith and has won the same amount of games.
Bingo...that was going to be my point...look where his latest wins have come at, Texas Tech, in a stacked Big 12 for the most part

It's incredibly close...but, I also give it to Knight for having the balls to throw a chair across the court

[The Matt Kaufman]

Bingo...that was going to be my point...look where his latest wins have come at, Texas Tech, in a stacked Big 12 for the most part

It's incredibly close...but, I also give it to Knight for having the balls to throw a chair across the court

UNCs coach slammed a chair last march haha

[preppyak]

UNCs coach slammed a chair last march haha

Yeah...but in comparison...

Like, my three favorite NCAA moments are:

1. Jim Valvano having no idea where he is on the court after winning the NCAA Championship
2. Bob Knight throws chair
3. Christian Laettner's (sp?) turn around jumper to win

[we are cured]

Bobby Knight. Dude had half the amount of talent than Dean Smith and has won the same amount of games.

i agree, but a large part of college BB is recruitment. gotta give that edge to dean.

[preppyak]

i agree, but a large part of college BB is recruitment. gotta give that edge to dean.
See...I understand that, but I value a guy who does more with less, than more with more, or less with more.

For example, I think Lute Olson is a hack job of a coach, hell of a recruiter, but perhaps one of the worst actual coaches in major programs right now (Tommy Amaker aside). I'd take someone like Anderson (formerly of UAB) or Few who does more with less before I would even consider Lute Olson, regardless of the talent he brings in.

So in that sense, Bobby Knight was still a good recruiter...I mean, Lute is probably one of the top 3 recruiters of all time, but a terrible coach...whereas Bobby was still good and then made his players something special, something phenomenal. I think Dean did the same thing, but he did it with better players to start with...which makes it just a little easier

[bigmike]

i agree, but a large part of college BB is recruitment. gotta give that edge to dean.
Thanks great. Matt Doherty can recruit. That doesn't make him a good coach.

[fire on my lips]

Thanks great. Matt Doherty can recruit. That doesn't make him a good coach.

Matt Doherty can't control players, that's why he isnt a good coach.


Dean Smith's graduation rate at UNC was 96.6%, and since the feeling is that Dean Smith coached more talented players, his players should be much more likely to be high draft picks, therefore his graduation rate is pretty damn good.
The best graduation rate I could find for Knight's is 98% as of 2001.
Smith and Knight are also two of four coaches to win the NIT, NCAA, and an Olympic medal.

Smith could recruit, control stars, and do the X's and O's. Bobby Knight couldn't do the first part as well, imo.

EDIT: Both also won the national championship as players: Smith at Kansas in 52 and Knight as a reserve for Ohio State in 60.

EDIT 2: Smith rebuilt Carolina after a point shaving scandal. Carolina only played 17 games his first year, and went 8-9 in Smith's only losing season.
I didn't know that.

I did know that the NCAA instituted the shot clock because of how well Smith utilized the four corners offense (hold on to the ball to waste time and to only score on easy baskets).

[leftstranded]

i agree, but a large part of college BB is recruitment. gotta give that edge to dean.
which creates a winning program, if you can coach them up

knight did much more with much less. and he graduates a HUGE amount of his players

i have the ultimate respect for that man simply beacuse of his graduation rates

[preppyak]

I did know that the NCAA instituted the shot clock because of how well Smith utilized the four corners offense (hold on to the ball to waste time and to only score on easy baskets).
haha...now that is awesome

[bigmike]

Matt Doherty can't control players, that's why he isnt a good coach.


Dean Smith's graduation rate at UNC was 96.6%, and since the feeling is that Dean Smith coached more talented players, his players should be much more likely to be high draft picks, therefore his graduation rate is pretty damn good.
The best graduation rate I could find for Knight's is 98% as of 2001.
Smith and Knight are also two of four coaches to win the NIT, NCAA, and an Olympic medal.

Smith could recruit, control stars, and do the X's and O's. Bobby Knight couldn't do the first part as well, imo.

EDIT: Both also won the national championship as players: Smith at Kansas in 52 and Knight as a reserve for Ohio State in 60.

EDIT 2: Smith rebuilt Carolina after a point shaving scandal. Carolina only played 17 games his first year, and went 8-9 in Smith's only losing season.
I didn't know that.

I did know that the NCAA instituted the shot clock because of how well Smith utilized the four corners offense (hold on to the ball to waste time and to only score on easy baskets).
I'm not knocking dean smith. I love the dude and he graduated his players, too. But there are great recruiters out there and when you have great talent it is easier to "coach them up" considering most times when they walk on the floor they are the best kids on the court. When Knight's kids walked on the court, save for Isaiah Thomas, they had to out work, out execute, and out hustle their opponents. I just think that what Knight did with alot of teams that were supremely worse than any of Smith's teams is just too impressive to deny.

Edit: And besides, this is really asking "who's the 2nd best coach of all time?" because Coach K is clearly the best, in my mind.

[preppyak]

Edit: And besides, this is really asking "who's the 2nd best coach of all time?" because Coach K is clearly the best, in my mind.
Wow...really?

I value Knight more than I do Coach K...if only for scheduling purposes...Coach K's wins come at home at Cameron...not on the road, and it shows come tourney time. I mean, even last year, there was no reason for that team to not win it all, save for UConn or Nova...

Coached Duke to three National Championships (1991, 1992 and 2001)
Coached Duke to ten NCAA Final Fours (1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1999, 2001, 2004)That number should be 5 championships probably, especially with his teams...but they always failed to deal with the adversity of a big game because without that Cameron crowd behind them, they seemed to lose something. Think about when JJ got done last year at LSU, nobody on that team stepped up to help because they weren't used to that combination of no support from the crowd and JJ.

He is an immaculate person, a great coach, and has done amazing things at the program. He may be the greatest human in that category of coaches, but, he sold his team short in so many ways at times...

And again, he, like Dean Smith, had much better talent than Knight, that is undeniable. Knight has another Championship if Bird stays at Indiana instead of leaving...

And the final deciding factor for me...these are Coach K's assistants...and look how they have done

Tommy Amaker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Amaker) - Michigan
Mike Brey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Brey) - Notre Dame
Neil Dougherty - TCU
Quin Snyder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quin_Snyder) - formerly at Missouri
Jeff Capel III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Capel_III) - OklahomaTwo of those guys are on the hot seat right now, and one just got fired last year. And Capel is struggling at Oklahoma...where he will never become something huge. If anything, Coach K failed to pass down his true philosophy to his assistants, which makes me wonder if some of his success isn't in part just having the best players on the court, not the best coached.

In K's defense, he scares the shit out of me more than Knight...I would ref a Knight game any day before I would Coach K, he absolutely owns the refs every night

I have Knight as my 2nd best coach ever...#1 is Wooden, #3 is Coach K, #4 is Smith, and #5 is questionable right now...too many canidates

[FondestMemory]

Edit: And besides, this is really asking "who's the 2nd best coach of all time?" because Coach K is clearly the best, in my mind.

wooden?

[preppyak]

wooden?
I think Wooden is an assumed #1, and then you label best from there...

[bigmike]

wooden?
yeah, like preppyak said, he's the assumed #1. so i mis-worded my previous statement.

[preppyak]

yeah, like preppyak said, he's the assumed #1. so i mis-worded my previous statement.
yeah..i figured that...if you had said Wooden wasn't #1, I would have had to ask Drew or Scott to ban you...

[bigmike]

Wow...really?

I value Knight more than I do Coach K...if only for scheduling purposes...Coach K's wins come at home at Cameron...not on the road, and it shows come tourney time. I mean, even last year, there was no reason for that team to not win it all, save for UConn or Nova...
Coached Duke to three National Championships (1991, 1992 and 2001)
Coached Duke to ten NCAA Final Fours (1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1999, 2001, 2004)That number should be 5 championships probably, especially with his teams...but they always failed to deal with the adversity of a big game because without that Cameron crowd behind them, they seemed to lose something. Think about when JJ got done last year at LSU, nobody on that team stepped up to help because they weren't used to that combination of no support from the crowd and JJ.

He is an immaculate person, a great coach, and has done amazing things at the program. He may be the greatest human in that category of coaches, but, he sold his team short in so many ways at times...

And again, he, like Dean Smith, had much better talent than Knight, that is undeniable. Knight has another Championship if Bird stays at Indiana instead of leaving...

And the final deciding factor for me...these are Coach K's assistants...and look how they have done
Tommy Amaker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Amaker) - Michigan
Mike Brey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Brey) - Notre Dame
Neil Dougherty - TCU
Quin Snyder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quin_Snyder) - formerly at Missouri
Jeff Capel III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Capel_III) - OklahomaTwo of those guys are on the hot seat right now, and one just got fired last year. And Capel is struggling at Oklahoma...where he will never become something huge. If anything, Coach K failed to pass down his true philosophy to his assistants, which makes me wonder if some of his success isn't in part just having the best players on the court, not the best coached.

In K's defense, he scares the shit out of me more than Knight...I would ref a Knight game any day before I would Coach K, he absolutely owns the refs every night

I have Knight as my 2nd best coach ever...#1 is Wooden, #3 is Coach K, #4 is Smith, and #5 is questionable right now...too many canidates
I disagree. I think the fact that Duke was a 2 man team with a soft big man (men) in Sheldon Williams (and mcroberts) down low. I think JJ was more tired than anything and I don't think them playing on neutral sites hurt them. They just weren't the best team last year. If you believe that Duke should've won the title last year then you'd have to say that Gonzaga should've won the title last year as they had a similar set up; dominant upperclassman scoring the majority of the teams points, and a decent to good game down low. And i think both of those statements would be false.

And while he should have more national titles, he's at least been relevent the last 15 years in terms of national titles, where as Bob Knight hasn't been. And we agree on the fact that Knight has done more with less, but Coach K has dominated in the era with the most parity ever. You can pencil Duke in for a top 5 finish in the polls every year as well as going to the sweet 16/elite 8 every year, which takes it's toll.

And there may be a case for Duke's Dominance the last 20 years to being equivalent, or perhaps better (i don't believe that, but one could make the case), than UCLA's dominance because there's just so many schools with so many great players. The parity among major colleges in college basketball is unprecedented. And it's just going to get even tougher with the new NBA rule. When he retires, I'm not sure there'll be another coach to get a span of dominance like Coach K has had.

Edit: And I see your point about him not spawning off successful assistants, but he hasn't produced a lot of NBA stars, so do you hold that against him, too? Those two things are out of his control.

Edit #2: And Duke hasn't been great because of who they have on the court, as evidence of their 1994-95 season. They were 9-3 when coach k had to step away for the rest of the year for back surgery and exhaustion. They went 4-15 without him, 2-14 in the AC, that year and then the next year he came back and they went 18-13, 8-8 in the ACC.

[preppyak]

And while he should have more national titles, he's at least been relevent the last 15 years in terms of national titles, where as Bob Knight hasn't been. And we agree on the fact that Knight has done more with less, but Coach K has dominated in the era with the most parity ever. You can pencil Duke in for a top 5 finish in the polls every year as well as going to the sweet 16/elite 8 every year, which takes it's toll.

And there may be a case for Duke's Dominance the last 20 years to being equivalent, or perhaps better (i don't believe that, but one could make the case), than UCLA's dominance because there's just so many schools with so many great players. The parity among major colleges in college basketball is unprecedented. And it's just going to get even tougher with the new NBA rule. When he retires, I'm not sure there'll be another coach to get a span of dominance like Coach K has had.

Hmm...I see your point...and perhaps Coach K is statistically the better coach..you make a damn good argument...I just love Bobby Knight more, so my mind isn't going to change. If Coach K takes Duke to a Final Four this year, I'd consider him a god though...

[bigmike]

Hmm...I see your point...and perhaps Coach K is statistically the better coach..you make a damn good argument...I just love Bobby Knight more, so my mind isn't going to change. If Coach K takes Duke to a Final Four this year, I'd consider him a god though...
Check my edits.

[preppyak]

Check my edits.

Well...I think developing talent and passing on knowledge are things you can control in those aspects...but actual talent isn't.

So, not having NBA players either speaks to him finding the perfect players in his system, or, just the character of those players that they made it in Duke, but no the real world...not sure really. I think it's more the first, because many of his players are individual talents, and not well rounded per say...so, when you combine a great rebounder, a great shooter, a great passer, etc, you combine to be a great team. But, when you can shut down one of those elements, you can hamper the entire team, thus, maybe why only 3 championships? Like, when JJ was shut down, they still had a good passer in Paulus, a good defender in Nelson, a good big man (not great) in Sheldon, etc...but, when they lost their one element, it hurt their entire team. I guess I'm saying he builds teams and not players...which makes for great college players, but mediocre NBA talent, since you need to be a bit more rounder...or just such an exceptional one dimension that you get away with it

I don't know, those stats are hard to read into that way...but, the 2nd edit speaks wholly to his coaching ability and that system

[preppyak]

and maybe the 2nd edit speaks to why his coaches failed...because what he created with that system is so hard to achieve without those players...and when they tried...they couldn't and they knew no other system to coach

[RX XR]

See...I understand that, but I value a guy who does more with less, than more with more, or less with more.

For example, I think Lute Olson is a hack job of a coach, hell of a recruiter, but perhaps one of the worst actual coaches in major programs right now (Tommy Amaker aside). I'd take someone like Anderson (formerly of UAB) or Few who does more with less before I would even consider Lute Olson, regardless of the talent he brings in.

So in that sense, Bobby Knight was still a good recruiter...I mean, Lute is probably one of the top 3 recruiters of all time, but a terrible coach...whereas Bobby was still good and then made his players something special, something phenomenal. I think Dean did the same thing, but he did it with better players to start with...which makes it just a little easier


Lute is a very good recruiter. Watch out for Jerryd Bayless next year. I've played against him many times and he is a freak. Then again, another one of Lutes commits next year is Zane Johnson and he is very mediocre and won't even get close to playing in his career.

[preppyak]

Lute is a very good recruiter. Watch out for Jerryd Bayless next year. I've played against him many times and he is a freak. Then again, another one of Lutes commits next year is Zane Johnson and he is very mediocre and won't even get close to playing in his career.

Oh man, I know...when I saw he got Chase Budinger, I was excited for him....kid is a monster really...leaves it all on the floor.

Lute's had tons of kids like that...but he doesn't maximize that talent...if I gave Bobby Knight his recruits in the 80's and 90's, he'd probably press Wooden for that streak. There is just a softness or a lack of focus to his teams...and it's sad, because they are so talented year after year.

Like, there is always that marquee guy that underperforms (Shakur, forget the guy last year...there is a list)

[bigmike]

Lute is a very good recruiter. Watch out for Jerryd Bayless next year. I've played against him many times and he is a freak. Then again, another one of Lutes commits next year is Zane Johnson and he is very mediocre and won't even get close to playing in his career.
I think Lute's a great recruiter and not much more than that, to be honest. I think of the coaches in the cut below the upper tier coaches (Knight, Coach K) I think he's towards the lower end of the 2nd tier coaches (coaches like Izzo, Calhoun, Gary Williams, etc).
Oh man, I know...when I saw he got Chase Budinger, I was excited for him....kid is a monster really...leaves it all on the floor.

Lute's had tons of kids like that...but he doesn't maximize that talent...if I gave Bobby Knight his recruits in the 80's and 90's, he'd probably press Wooden for that streak. There is just a softness or a lack of focus to his teams...and it's sad, because they are so talented year after year.

Like, there is always that marquee guy that underperforms (Shakur, forget the guy last year...there is a list)
With the amount of talent Lute recruits, they should be on a run like duke with X amount of years in the sweet 16/elite 8 and most of the time, as of late, Arizona scrapes by just enough to get out of the first weekend. And sometimes they aren't even that luck.

Bill Self is falling in this category, too.

[preppyak]

Bill Self is falling in this category, too.
Well, he's a terrible offensive coach...and a passive-aggressive star accentuates that...he cannot coach zone offense, and so we just turn it over.

Had it not been for Julian Wright realizing he could stand at the foul line, turn, and shoot J's all game, we would not have beaten Texas in the Big 12 tourney...and it was something so simplistic as that to break the Texas 2-3 zone...that is all you need...one 4 guard who can pass and shoot fairly well...and it's lights out for that zone.

Now he has two guys who can do that (Arthur and Wright), plus a better three point shooter in Collins, and yet we are somehow worse against the zone than last year...?

[bigmike]

Well, he's a terrible offensive coach...and a passive-aggressive star accentuates that...he cannot coach zone offense, and so we just turn it over.

Had it not been for Julian Wright realizing he could stand at the foul line, turn, and shoot J's all game, we would not have beaten Texas in the Big 12 tourney...and it was something so simplistic as that to break the Texas 2-3 zone...that is all you need...one 4 guard who can pass and shoot fairly well...and it's lights out for that zone.
Yeah for sure. Do you think Self's starting to get on the hot seat? If there's another first weekend exit in the NCAA Tourney, is next year his final year to prove he can do something?

[preppyak]

Yeah for sure. Do you think Self's starting to get on the hot seat? If there's another first weekend exit in the NCAA Tourney, is next year his final year to prove he can do something?

Yes...Kansas fans will not sit content...that much I know...especially since Roy left and won right away.

Honestly, I wish we had Mike Anderson...dude can flat out coach, and I love his style of play, it'd wreak havoc in the Big 12 with better talent than Mizzou has

[bigmike]

Yes...Kansas fans will not sit content...that much I know...especially since Roy left and won right away.

Honestly, I wish we had Mike Anderson...dude can flat out coach, and I love his style of play, it'd wreak havoc in the Big 12 with better talent than Mizzou has
What style of play does he run?

[preppyak]

What style of play does he run?
Forty Minutes of Hell...

Press everywhere...try and get an up tempo game...and create as many TO's as possible...the Big 12 usually features a lot of inside games, which means big men, which mean bad ball handlers that turn it over on the press.

A slightly lessened form (38 minutes of hell?) would be perfect for Kansas right now, who has all the talent and defensive ability for that system...and when you score in the first 10 seconds of the clock (see Phoenix) how can a team run zone?

He was the guy who coached UAB last year...if that rings a bell...with Squeaky Johnson

[bigmike]

Forty Minutes of Hell...

Press everywhere...try and get an up tempo game...and create as many TO's as possible...the Big 12 usually features a lot of inside games, which means big men, which mean bad ball handlers that turn it over on the press.

A slightly lessened form (38 minutes of hell?) would be perfect for Kansas right now, who has all the talent and defensive ability for that system...and when you score in the first 10 seconds of the clock (see Phoenix) how can a team run zone?

He was the guy who coached UAB last year...if that rings a bell...with Squeaky Johnson
Oh, I remember. If I coached basketball that's what I would do. I'd press probably 98% of the time and I'd push the ball as quick as possible, too.

[preppyak]

Oh, I remember. If I coached basketball that's what I would do. I'd press probably 98% of the time and I'd push the ball as quick as possible, too.
It is a strategy that you use for one of two reasons

1. You don't have the talent to play half court basketball and so you try and force your opponent into a lot of mistakes so you can capitalize (UAB)

2. You are more talented than the other team, and rather than rely on you not having a bad shooting night to lose a game, you impose your will at every moment possible, negating things like bad nights for players by eliminating the other team almost entirely (Kansas really under Anderson)

The thing is, you need a coach who knows the system and knows how to adjust to a team that is breaking it...which is something Self cannot do

[LeftWideOpen]

al skinner is great at getting the most out of his talent, a la Bobby Knight. Guys like Troy Bell, Jared Dudley, Craig Smith ...nobody gave 2 shits about these guys coming out of high school.

i read an article today in the paper ..apparently hes been contacted more than once about being an NBA head coach, but isnt interested yet. He said he has some things he wants to accomplish at BC, 1st.

[bigmike]

It is a strategy that you use for one of two reasons

1. You don't have the talent to play half court basketball and so you try and force your opponent into a lot of mistakes so you can capitalize (UAB)

2. You are more talented than the other team, and rather than rely on you not having a bad shooting night to lose a game, you impose your will at every moment possible, negating things like bad nights for players by eliminating the other team almost entirely (Kansas really under Anderson)

The thing is, you need a coach who knows the system and knows how to adjust to a team that is breaking it...which is something Self cannot do
Yeah for sure. I just love pressure, up tempo systems.
al skinner is great at getting the most out of his talent, a la Bobby Knight. Guys like Troy Bell, Jared Dudley, Craig Smith ...nobody gave 2 shits about these guys coming out of high school.

i read an article today in the paper ..apparently hes been contacted more than once about being an NBA head coach, but isnt interested yet. He said he has some things he wants to accomplish at BC, 1st.
Why anyone that has had solid success at the college level would want to go to the NBA and coach malcontents and ego-maniacs is beyond me.

[preppyak]

Why anyone that has had solid success at the college level would want to go to the NBA and coach malcontents and ego-maniacs is beyond me.
More money and exposure...because think of what Al Skinner gets now compared to say, Isaah Thomas, who is coaching a terrible NBA team...

Other than that...maybe a new challenge, but, I would think any season in the ACC would be a fun challenge to approach if you aren't Duke or UNC

[bigmike]

More money and exposure...because think of what Al Skinner gets now compared to say, Isaah Thomas, who is coaching a terrible NBA team...

Other than that...maybe a new challenge, but, I would think any season in the ACC would be a fun challenge to approach if you aren't Duke or UNC
Yeah, but it's not like Al Skinner's making 45K a year. he's making a pretty good amount of money and this is just me personally, but I love the college atmosphere the most. Kids want to play, generally don't have egos (Save for some) and you're more of a teacher.