What the fuck has Obama done so far?

[Kyle Garchar]

http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/

[caveBEAR]

:mellow:

[bandnamexmyname]

Hmm.

[JuneJuly]

:mellow:

:-|

[Zeran]

i like.

[Frosty]

Does america even have universal health care yet??

[bite2brkskn12]

i'm not looking forward to any of the things he has planned. He want's all kids to be able to go to college. It's so hard to get a job nowadays even with a college degree. Can you imagine if all kids had a college degree how much harder it would be. The whole universal health care thing is bullshit. It would most likely be just like public school. it'd be really nice in the suburbs/expensive areas and really shitty in the poorer areas. Not everyone is going to get the same treatment he's promising. Also, taxes and prices would be so ridiculous. Sure Canada has free healthcare, but if you want a blizzard from dairy queen it's like 7 dollars. $50 for a handle of Bacardi when you can get it here for like 25-27. I went to canada in may and I was not impressed by this.

Edit: sorry for the rant. Also, this is just my opinion and not fact.

[yves.]

i'm not looking forward to any of the things he has planned. He want's all kids to be able to go to college. It's so hard to get a job nowadays even with a college degree. Can you imagine if all kids had a college degree how much harder it would be. The whole universal health care thing is bullshit. It would most likely be just like public school. it'd be really nice in the suburbs/expensive areas and really shitty in the poorer areas. Not everyone is going to get the same treatment he's promising. Also, taxes and prices would be so rediculous. Sure Canada has free healthcare, but if you want a blizzard from dairy queen it's like 7 dollars. $50 for a handle of Bacardi when you can get it here for like 25-27. I went to canada in may and I was not impressed by this.

oh please, italy has universal healthcare and the second biggest bottle of jagermeister you can get was $15 at the grocery store. anyway, that has nothing to do with the healthcare debate. if you'd rather go nearly into bankruptcy for something like cancer treatment instead of having it simply being taken care of by the government (and by this, i mean taking a couple of extra dollars from your paycheck or taxing items so they are slightly more expensive), then you're cray cray. universal healthcare benefits everyone. and also, it's not like you wouldn't have the option to continue having your own private healthcare.

it's ridiculous that in america, there are so many people kissing the ass of christianity, which teaches compassion and charity, yet there are so little people that are truly compassionate or charitable. everyone has the right to be healthy.

[152]

i'm not looking forward to any of the things he has planned. He want's all kids to be able to go to college. It's so hard to get a job nowadays even with a college degree. Can you imagine if all kids had a college degree how much harder it would be. The whole universal health care thing is bullshit. It would most likely be just like public school. it'd be really nice in the suburbs/expensive areas and really shitty in the poorer areas. Not everyone is going to get the same treatment he's promising. Also, taxes and prices would be so ridiculous. Sure Canada has free healthcare, but if you want a blizzard from dairy queen it's like 7 dollars. $50 for a handle of Bacardi when you can get it here for like 25-27. I went to canada in may and I was not impressed by this.

Edit: sorry for the rant. Also, this is just my opinion and not fact.

So you'd rather pay out your ass for a night in the hospital when you're hurt or sick than a few extra dollars for a blizzard and alcohol?

[WTG]

Universal Healthcare will not work. Ask anyone in the military or a military dependent. The US military has universal healthcare, and it is the worst healthcare imaginable. I can't count how many times I've had to go to the hospital multiple times in my life for the same problems because of the limitations of universal healthcare (such as a requirement to give patients the lowest level of medicine, regardless of past history). It once took three trips and about a month to get the right medication for strep throat. In a different state, it took two separate trips to clear up an inner ear infection. Four trips for an ingrown toenail ( although, by the end, we payed to go outside of the military healthcare so that it would be done correctly). When I was a baby, military doctors could not figure out a simple problem with me to the point where my parents had to go to a real doctor, who immediately knew what was wrong and how to fix it.

Universal healthcare in the United States will fail. It is already piss-poor, and if that was the quality everywhere, then we will be in trouble.

[StrictlyBiznas]

http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/

Like.

[J.C.]

Thread is only 10 replies old and already has some of the stupidest posts I've ever encountered on this forum.

[a nocturnal day]

i like.

this

[Perkins]

Thread is only 10 replies old and already has some of the stupidest posts I've ever encountered on this forum.

+1

[saysmydoctor]

Universal Healthcare will not work. Ask anyone in the military or a military dependent. The US military has universal healthcare, and it is the worst healthcare imaginable. I can't count how many times I've had to go to the hospital multiple times in my life for the same problems because of the limitations of universal healthcare (such as a requirement to give patients the lowest level of medicine, regardless of past history). It once took three trips and about a month to get the right medication for strep throat. In a different state, it took two separate trips to clear up an inner ear infection. Four trips for an ingrown toenail ( although, by the end, we payed to go outside of the military healthcare so that it would be done correctly). When I was a baby, military doctors could not figure out a simple problem with me to the point where my parents had to go to a real doctor, who immediately knew what was wrong and how to fix it.

Universal healthcare in the United States will fail. It is already piss-poor, and if that was the quality everywhere, then we will be in trouble.
I'm a military dependent. Never encountered the problems you're discussing. Only when I moved did we run into any real bureaucratic issues and I will criticize that aspect of it more than anything else.

[heyiamcody]

i'm not looking forward to any of the things he has planned. He want's all kids to be able to go to college. It's so hard to get a job nowadays even with a college degree. Can you imagine if all kids had a college degree how much harder it would be. The whole universal health care thing is bullshit. It would most likely be just like public school. it'd be really nice in the suburbs/expensive areas and really shitty in the poorer areas. Not everyone is going to get the same treatment he's promising. Also, taxes and prices would be so ridiculous. Sure Canada has free healthcare, but if you want a blizzard from dairy queen it's like 7 dollars. $50 for a handle of Bacardi when you can get it here for like 25-27. I went to canada in may and I was not impressed by this.

Edit: sorry for the rant. Also, this is just my opinion and not fact.
Wow! Typical ignorant American. You think that the cost of your booze and ice cream in Canada was a reflection of their countries stance on health care?

Thanks for clarifying that your rant was in fact, not fact and simply the ramblings of your shallow, South Park soaked, McDonalds fed brain.

[Nick Le]

Saw this earlier and I liked it.

[Tommy Gun]

Wow! Typical ignorant American. You think that the cost of your booze and ice cream in Canada was a reflection of their countries stance on health care?

Thanks for clarifying that your rant was in fact, not fact and simply the ramblings of your shallow, South Park soaked, McDonalds fed brain.

My ignorant American math tells me.....

Personal attack + counterpoint + antagonizing comment = - Credibility

[Sloth7]

Well, to be fair, he did do this:

EJBlwUfIoDk

[vivatoto56]

Pretty cool website.

Oh wait, we're not talking about that kinda stuff in this thread.

My bad.

[TinMan20]

but...what would mccain have done?

in my opinion,( i have a pretty lay understanding of politics), choosing a president, governor, senator etc. is choosing between two evils, and how lightly you want to be fucked in the ass. either way its gonna happen, and your'e gonna have to just take it. obama was put in a shit situation, let him finish his presidency before we question every move he has done.

i would bet heavily, no matter who was president, propaganda like this would be out there, trying to get people against the current president. lets wait 4 years before we really judge where obama, or any president for that matter, is taking the country. like most the things say, "it doesn't affect me personally, so who cares?"

with that being said, i donno what obama has realllly done, but from what i hear, theres a light at the end of the economic recession tunnel, and thats cool with me.

[heyiamcody]

My ignorant American math tells me.....

Personal attack + counterpoint + antagonizing comment = - Credibility
haha because it's clear that "credibility" is what we're all seeking here on absolutepunk, right? It couldn't have been that the post was completely nonsensical, right?

I find it interesting that you only comment on the way I replied and not the reason I posted at all. Thanks for the math equation though. America isn't too well known for their education either. It's good to see someone is paying attention to their studies!

[vivatoto56]

but...what would mccain have done?

in my opinion,( i have a pretty lay understanding of politics), choosing a president, governor, senator etc. is choosing between two evils, and how lightly you want to be fucked in the ass. either way its gonna happen, and your'e gonna have to just take it. obama was put in a shit situation, let him finish his presidency before we question every move he has done.

i would bet heavily, no matter who was president, propaganda like this would be out there, trying to get people against the current president. lets wait 4 years before we really judge where obama, or any president for that matter, is taking the country. like most the things say, "it doesn't affect me personally, so who cares?"

with that being said, i donno what obama has realllly done, but from what i hear, theres a light at the end of the economic recession tunnel, and thats cool with me.

You should probably go to the website, You might be missing the point.

[TinMan20]

You should probably go to the website, You might be missing the point.

HAHAHAH!!...ooooooooooooooopppppppp ppppsssss. i gotta stick to the music aspect of this website.

the obvious can stare me in the face, and i can still miss it.

go obama. i knew i voted for you for a reason.

[vivatoto56]

HAHAHAH!!...ooooooooooooooopppppppp ppppsssss. i gotta stick to the music aspect of this website.

Haha don't worry, I'm fairly certain 90% of the people in here did the same thing.

[Jasper112]

So you'd rather pay out your ass for a night in the hospital when you're hurt or sick than a few extra dollars for a blizzard and alcohol?

hahahah

[abusedcat]

i'm not looking forward to any of the things he has planned. He want's all kids to be able to go to college. It's so hard to get a job nowadays even with a college degree. Can you imagine if all kids had a college degree how much harder it would be. The whole universal health care thing is bullshit. It would most likely be just like public school. it'd be really nice in the suburbs/expensive areas and really shitty in the poorer areas. Not everyone is going to get the same treatment he's promising. Also, taxes and prices would be so ridiculous. Sure Canada has free healthcare, but if you want a blizzard from dairy queen it's like 7 dollars. $50 for a handle of Bacardi when you can get it here for like 25-27. I went to canada in may and I was not impressed by this.

Edit: sorry for the rant. Also, this is just my opinion and not fact.
i agree, though.
college, just like owning a house, is a privlege, not a right.

[Superboy]

So you'd rather pay out your ass for a night in the hospital when you're hurt or sick than a few extra dollars for a blizzard and alcohol?

:lol:

[Paulie4star]

Universal Healthcare will not work. Ask anyone in the military or a military dependent. The US military has universal healthcare, and it is the worst healthcare imaginable. I can't count how many times I've had to go to the hospital multiple times in my life for the same problems because of the limitations of universal healthcare (such as a requirement to give patients the lowest level of medicine, regardless of past history). It once took three trips and about a month to get the right medication for strep throat. In a different state, it took two separate trips to clear up an inner ear infection. Four trips for an ingrown toenail ( although, by the end, we payed to go outside of the military healthcare so that it would be done correctly). When I was a baby, military doctors could not figure out a simple problem with me to the point where my parents had to go to a real doctor, who immediately knew what was wrong and how to fix it.

Universal healthcare in the United States will fail. It is already piss-poor, and if that was the quality everywhere, then we will be in trouble.
I'll respectfully disagree. I am in the military, and I have 2 dependants. None of us have ever encountered an issue that wasn't worked out on the spot. In fact, the doctors that do check-ups and shots and all of that for my son have actually impressed me. Perhaps you've just had a few unfortunate experiences with said doctors. :shrug:

[PandaBear!]

i'm not looking forward to any of the things he has planned. He want's all kids to be able to go to college. It's so hard to get a job nowadays even with a college degree. Can you imagine if all kids had a college degree how much harder it would be. The whole universal health care thing is bullshit. It would most likely be just like public school. it'd be really nice in the suburbs/expensive areas and really shitty in the poorer areas. Not everyone is going to get the same treatment he's promising. Also, taxes and prices would be so ridiculous. Sure Canada has free healthcare, but if you want a blizzard from dairy queen it's like 7 dollars. $50 for a handle of Bacardi when you can get it here for like 25-27. I went to canada in may and I was not impressed by this.

Edit: sorry for the rant. Also, this is just my opinion and not fact.

The fact he wants everyone to have the chance to go to college is a great thing. In the UK those days are over i think - i've luckily been able to afford to go & it costs me £3000+ a year for 3 years. Now our useless Conservative government has made it (or maybe just threatening) £7000+ a year, meaning my brother has little to no chance of going and money is 100% the reason he cannot go and its ridiculously unfair. The fact he's offering a better education to anyone & everyone is a good thing, believe me.
Universal healthcare is also not bullshit because, like an education, everyone is entitled to the best healthcare possible without factors like money preventing them. We have universal healthcare (the NHS) and Stephen Hawking says its amazing and he owes his life to it, making universal healthcare amazing :-d
Such a shame that you have the most intelligent, compassionate & fair president that you've had for years and even those who voted for him are now turning on him for changing things - which was, if i'm not mistaken, his main campaign slogan, yet its still shocking people.....


i agree, though.
college, just like owning a house, is a privlege, not a right.

...........what? Only someone rich would say something like that. A privilege defined by what exactly, how much money you've earned? I can guarantee there are hundreds of thousands of people smart enough to go to college that are unable to afford to go, more that have to settle for a cheaper college because they cannot afford a good one. Intelligence should be the only deciding factor in the field of education, not money.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Well, to be fair, he did do this:

EJBlwUfIoDk

Obama is also a lousy bowler

[Hamlet]

Does america even have universal health care yet??

So. Far. Behind.

[Kozzy333]

i'm not looking forward to any of the things he has planned. He want's all kids to be able to go to college. It's so hard to get a job nowadays even with a college degree. Can you imagine if all kids had a college degree how much harder it would be. The whole universal health care thing is bullshit. It would most likely be just like public school. it'd be really nice in the suburbs/expensive areas and really shitty in the poorer areas. Not everyone is going to get the same treatment he's promising. Also, taxes and prices would be so ridiculous. Sure Canada has free healthcare, but if you want a blizzard from dairy queen it's like 7 dollars. $50 for a handle of Bacardi when you can get it here for like 25-27. I went to canada in may and I was not impressed by this.

Edit: sorry for the rant. Also, this is just my opinion and not fact.

I'm pretty sure the costs of blizzards and alcohol have nothing to do with Universal Heath Care. We aren't drowning in taxes up here and we actually look after our people.

Edit- The prices are probably more to do with the higher costs of shipping on the sellers so they have to sell things at a higher price for profit.

[EchoPark]

Does america even have universal health care yet??

Oh wow, another Aussie who thinks they know everything about the American political system. a dime a fucking dozen

Please just STFU

[EchoPark]

So. Far. Behind.


New Zuhland has such a great economy and is such a great place to live, that people have been getting the fuck out of there in droves for the past 25 years. And guess what? All the dumb sheepfuckers come to Australia

almost 5 million Kiwis in the world, and over 1 million of them don't even fucking live in NZ. What does that tell you??

Just STFU

[Paulie4star]

...........what? Only someone rich would say something like that. A privilege defined by what exactly, how much money you've earned? I can guarantee there are hundreds of thousands of people smart enough to go to college that are unable to afford to go, more that have to settle for a cheaper college because they cannot afford a good one. Intelligence should be the only deciding factor in the field of education, not money.
Military is the only shot I had at going to school, I tried for 1 semester and got the grades with ease, but the money is where I ran into troubles. It's pretty lame the shit some people have to go through to get a degree.

[ellie117]

The fact he wants everyone to have the chance to go to college is a great thing. In the UK those days are over i think - i've luckily been able to afford to go & it costs me £3000+ a year for 3 years. Now our useless Conservative government has made it (or maybe just threatening) £7000+ a year, meaning my brother has little to no chance of going and money is 100% the reason he cannot go and its ridiculously unfair. The fact he's offering a better education to anyone & everyone is a good thing, believe me.
Universal healthcare is also not bullshit because, like an education, everyone is entitled to the best healthcare possible without factors like money preventing them. We have universal healthcare (the NHS) and Stephen Hawking says its amazing and he owes his life to it, making universal healthcare amazing :-d
Such a shame that you have the most intelligent, compassionate & fair president that you've had for years and even those who voted for him are now turning on him for changing things - which was, if i'm not mistaken, his main campaign slogan, yet its still shocking people.....




...........what? Only someone rich would say something like that. A privilege defined by what exactly, how much money you've earned? I can guarantee there are hundreds of thousands of people smart enough to go to college that are unable to afford to go, more that have to settle for a cheaper college because they cannot afford a good one. Intelligence should be the only deciding factor in the field of education, not money.

I totally agree. I went to a community college for 2 years (granted, on a scholarship from the state because of my GPA) and the only reason I stuck through the "community college isn't real college" "go to a real school" "you only have a 3.8 GPA because you're going to community" "you don't take real classes" bullshit was because I couldn't afford to live away at a college like all of my other friends. Most of them have parents or college funds that were saved up for them - I got a 2k check from my grandparents that bought me a laptop and half my books for a single semester. Now I lost that scholarship (on a technicality, not because of my GPA) and have to pay 7k a semester to commute to a "real" college.

Of course everyone deserves to go to college - that is the only way to get a job nowadays! And to whoever said "if everyone has a degree it will be even harder to get a job," you're an idiot. America's education level compared to other power countries is a damn joke. And you really want to keep the country's literacy level down? Are you serious? We're getting surpassed by other countries who have schooling all year round because the intelligence level of the younger generation is much higher than here. And you want adults to not have access to higher education? Insane.

[ellie117]

but...what would mccain have done?

in my opinion,( i have a pretty lay understanding of politics), choosing a president, governor, senator etc. is choosing between two evils, and how lightly you want to be fucked in the ass. either way its gonna happen, and your'e gonna have to just take it. obama was put in a shit situation, let him finish his presidency before we question every move he has done.

i would bet heavily, no matter who was president, propaganda like this would be out there, trying to get people against the current president. lets wait 4 years before we really judge where obama, or any president for that matter, is taking the country. like most the things say, "it doesn't affect me personally, so who cares?"

with that being said, i donno what obama has realllly done, but from what i hear, theres a light at the end of the economic recession tunnel, and thats cool with me.

I agree with you, to certain extent. There is a light at the end of the economic recession tunnel, and it amazes me how more people don't see that. I am a Democrat so this will seem bias, but the Republicans worked hard to make it look like Obama hasn't "done anything" so they could take back control. And that's exactly what they accomplished last night. As if Obama didn't have a hard enough time as it is getting stuff passed, I will not be surprised if more than 2/3 of what he proposes never makes it to fruition now. The Republicans were spiteful, selfish, and knew exactly what they wanted, and the Democrats were just not hungry enough. Obama has gotten a lot done and people are acting like since everything isn't all rainbows and butterflies that he hasn't done a good job. And that frightens me. Which is why higher education is so important because maybe if people were more educated they would actually start to think.

[zachff]

Things that suck or don't exist in America that are ubiquitous in "lesser" nations:
Universal Health Care
Inexpensive College Education
Broadband Internet

[xapplexpiex]

http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/
Sent this to a bunch of people, hahaha.

[PandaBear!]

As a UK citizen it amazes me how, mostly republicans it seems, bring religion into politics. They corrupt the face of politics and peoples attitudes towards it by bringing it up where it has no place, and then corrupt the sanctity of religion by using it as a selling point. A religious politician claiming they are doing 'the work of God' over here would be looked at as a joke, even by me who believes in God...

[Hamlet]

New Zuhland has such a great economy and is such a great place to live, that people have been getting the fuck out of there in droves for the past 25 years. And guess what? All the dumb sheepfuckers come to Australia

almost 5 million Kiwis in the world, and over 1 million of them don't even fucking live in NZ. What does that tell you??

Just STFU

This is why I only troll here now.

[GlassyLight]

In worse, slightly-different-but-wholly-related-to-the-"Republicans-bring-religion-into-the-mix", my fellow Iowans have decided to use a judicial retention vote to get rid of the three possible state supreme court justices. Why would they do that, you ask? Because these judges (2 of which appointed by a Republican governor) read the constitution and decided that banning gays from marrying was unconstitutional. Much like Prop 8 in California, the religious right and hard-leaning Republicans funded a ridiculous smear campaign against these judges, who have no record of being anything but impartial. Thankfully, the gay-marriage law is already on the books and will take a hell of a lot of effort to get repealed, but this sends a big message to a lot of people, and that message is "Fuck The Gays"....and not in the fun way.

Be fucking angry about this. It sets a horribly dangerous precedent.

[StephenYoung]

i'm not looking forward to any of the things he has planned. He want's all kids to be able to go to college. It's so hard to get a job nowadays even with a college degree. Can you imagine if all kids had a college degree how much harder it would be. The whole universal health care thing is bullshit. It would most likely be just like public school. it'd be really nice in the suburbs/expensive areas and really shitty in the poorer areas. Not everyone is going to get the same treatment he's promising. Also, taxes and prices would be so ridiculous. Sure Canada has free healthcare, but if you want a blizzard from dairy queen it's like 7 dollars. $50 for a handle of Bacardi when you can get it here for like 25-27. I went to canada in may and I was not impressed by this.

Edit: sorry for the rant. Also, this is just my opinion and not fact.
Not true. I live in Quebec where our cost of living is really high, and stuff is only a bit higher than the rest of the world. A 40 of Goose is like 35$ at the SAQ and a blizzard is like 4$

[StephenYoung]

i agree, though.
college, just like owning a house, is a privlege, not a right.
stupidest post ever, and I'm a hardcore capitalist.

[crushlustcrash]

When you live in a developing country where the main concern lies on how to increase the income of the 3/4 of the population that earns $2 per day, all this rants sounds ridiculous.

[lmorris956]

First, I'm not terribly impressed with the website. I'm not one of those people who say that Obama has done absolutely nothing, so it doesn't really do much for me. In any case, though, I'm pretty sure that someone could have easily done something along the lines of "What the f**k good has Bush done?" too. It pretty much just lists the minutia that all presidents do.

Second, I'll chime in on this whole "America's so far behind" debate. I, like many Americans, am against universal health care because I accept the tradeoff between quality and access. We have the best health care system in the world (and yes, I learned that from class, not some propaganda), but the drawback is that not everyone can access it, and I can accept that. I don't believe access to this great system is a basic human right that stands beside food, shelter, basic education, etc.

Additionally, I think people have a tendency to exaggerate the facts. In September, the number of uninsured rose to 50.7 million people, a whole 16% of our population. However, this isn't to say that that many are without health care. Growing up, my family never had health insurance because my dad was self-employed. When the need arose, we took care of ourselves. The point is that uninsured doesn't necessarily mean "no access." It just means that times will tougher during medical emergencies. Forcing everyone to accommodate the less than 16% just isn't worth it because as I said, I don't consider it a fundamental human right.

But that's just my opinion. I don't mind if anyone disagrees with me, just please at least be civil about it. I tried to lay out my argument, so I would prefer not to simply be called a capitalist douchebag.

I also wanted to say something about this expensive college education debate too, but I realize that I'm far too ignorant about it to make any informed points. Could some people who live in these countries enlighten me as to how they work? How are they subsidized, and how does it affect your educational system overall? In other words, do your institutions of higher learning have different levels of prestige, or because they're all low cost, are they pretty much the same? I'm not trying to set anyone up; I simply don't know.

[Simulcast]

So, he spent a lot of money. I see.

[paper halo]

Second, I'll chime in on this whole "America's so far behind" debate. I, like many Americans, am against universal health care because I accept the tradeoff between quality and access. We have the best health care system in the world (and yes, I learned that from class, not some propaganda), but the drawback is that not everyone can access it, and I can accept that. I don't believe access to this great system is a basic human right that stands beside food, shelter, basic education, etc.

According to who? Because the World Health Organisation disagrees.

[caveBEAR]

:-|

My apologies, I assumed wrong on what 'whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar' may be about...

:shrug:
'When you assume', etc.

[Jason Tate]

According to who? Because the World Health Organisation disagrees.

I stopped reading there too.

[J.C.]

Second, I'll chime in on this whole "America's so far behind" debate. I, like many Americans, am against universal health care because I accept the tradeoff between quality and access. We have the best health care system in the world (and yes, I learned that from class, not some propaganda), but the drawback is that not everyone can access it, and I can accept that. I don't believe access to this great system is a basic human right that stands beside food, shelter, basic education, etc.

There's nothing more Pro-life than that.

[PandaBear!]

First, I'm not terribly impressed with the website. I'm not one of those people who say that Obama has done absolutely nothing, so it doesn't really do much for me. In any case, though, I'm pretty sure that someone could have easily done something along the lines of "What the f**k good has Bush done?" too. It pretty much just lists the minutia that all presidents do.

Second, I'll chime in on this whole "America's so far behind" debate. I, like many Americans, am against universal health care because I accept the tradeoff between quality and access. We have the best health care system in the world (and yes, I learned that from class, not some propaganda), but the drawback is that not everyone can access it, and I can accept that. I don't believe access to this great system is a basic human right that stands beside food, shelter, basic education, etc.

Additionally, I think people have a tendency to exaggerate the facts. In September, the number of uninsured rose to 50.7 million people, a whole 16% of our population. However, this isn't to say that that many are without health care. Growing up, my family never had health insurance because my dad was self-employed. When the need arose, we took care of ourselves. The point is that uninsured doesn't necessarily mean "no access." It just means that times will tougher during medical emergencies. Forcing everyone to accommodate the less than 16% just isn't worth it because as I said, I don't consider it a fundamental human right.

But that's just my opinion. I don't mind if anyone disagrees with me, just please at least be civil about it. I tried to lay out my argument, so I would prefer not to simply be called a capitalist douchebag.

I also wanted to say something about this expensive college education debate too, but I realize that I'm far too ignorant about it to make any informed points. Could some people who live in these countries enlighten me as to how they work? How are they subsidized, and how does it affect your educational system overall? In other words, do your institutions of higher learning have different levels of prestige, or because they're all low cost, are they pretty much the same? I'm not trying to set anyone up; I simply don't know.

Firstly i'll take the college question 'cause it's the easiest - the levels of prestige are based on things like the A-Level grades/UCAS points you need to get into the course at the college of your choice - Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial London you would need nothing less than all A's/points equivalent of all A's in your 3 (or more) A-Levels, the shit ones you need like 3 E's or something. The better universities have better facilities, lecturers etc. (at my uni i read books by a guy who could've been my actual teacher if i'd got the grades to get into Birmingham Uni). It is based solely on your educational achievements, not money which is why a poor smart kid like myself was able to go, thats why those who didn't do well in their A-Level courses cannot get into the best universities.

As for your views on healthcare, i just find them confusing - why do you think healthcare isn't a 'fundamental human right'? this is literally crazy to me (but i do live in a country that has universal healthcare). The fact that someone could DIE because they don't have the money to afford care is so scary its unreal.

[*crying stars*]

Thread: :wallbash:

[drevans18]

i'm not looking forward to any of the things he has planned. He wants all kids to be able to go to college. It's so hard to get a job nowadays even with a college degree. Can you imagine if all kids had a college degree how much harder it would be. The whole universal health care thing is bullshit. It would most likely be just like public school. it'd be really nice in the suburbs/expensive areas and really shitty in the poorer areas. Not everyone is going to get the same treatment he's promising. Also, taxes and prices would be so ridiculous. Sure Canada has free healthcare, but if you want a blizzard from dairy queen it's like 7 dollars. $50 for a handle of Bacardi when you can get it here for like 25-27. I went to canada in may and I was not impressed by this.

Edit: sorry for the rant. Also, this is just my opinion and not fact.

Yeah, he wants. He knows it's not going to happen. But he still wants. He's allowed to want, right?

[caveBEAR]

(and yes, I learned that from class, not some propaganda)

:lolatpost:

[caveBEAR]

The fact that someone could DIE because they don't have the money to afford care is so scary its unreal.

:appl:

Health & shelter aren't privileges, they're rights. 3D-TV's & hookers are privileges.

[deFobbed14yrs]

Whole lot of stupid in this thread.

Health care not a basic right. Jesus what century is this?

[drevans18]

First, I'm not terribly impressed with the website. I'm not one of those people who say that Obama has done absolutely nothing, so it doesn't really do much for me. In any case, though, I'm pretty sure that someone could have easily done something along the lines of "What the f**k good has Bush done?" too. It pretty much just lists the minutia that all presidents do.

Second, I'll chime in on this whole "America's so far behind" debate. I, like many Americans, am against universal health care because I accept the tradeoff between quality and access. We have the best health care system in the world (and yes, I learned that from class, not some propaganda), but the drawback is that not everyone can access it, and I can accept that. I don't believe access to this great system is a basic human right that stands beside food, shelter, basic education, etc.

Additionally, I think people have a tendency to exaggerate the facts. In September, the number of uninsured rose to 50.7 million people, a whole 16% of our population. However, this isn't to say that that many are without health care. Growing up, my family never had health insurance because my dad was self-employed. When the need arose, we took care of ourselves. The point is that uninsured doesn't necessarily mean "no access." It just means that times will tougher during medical emergencies. Forcing everyone to accommodate the less than 16% just isn't worth it because as I said, I don't consider it a fundamental human right.

But that's just my opinion. I don't mind if anyone disagrees with me, just please at least be civil about it. I tried to lay out my argument, so I would prefer not to simply be called a capitalist douchebag.

I also wanted to say something about this expensive college education debate too, but I realize that I'm far too ignorant about it to make any informed points. Could some people who live in these countries enlighten me as to how they work? How are they subsidized, and how does it affect your educational system overall? In other words, do your institutions of higher learning have different levels of prestige, or because they're all low cost, are they pretty much the same? I'm not trying to set anyone up; I simply don't know.

1. True. I think Obama has done more than people give him credit for, and the effects are just longterm and not immediate (which is something a lot of people just simply don't understand). But you're right about the website, could be set up for MOST presidents.

2. I don't think we have the BEST healthcare system in the world. I'm not sure what class you learned that in, but I don't agree (I'm on opinion, not fact). I have no countries to list that I think have better healthcare, because I'm pretty ignorant on the issue. But I will say from doing the minimal research that I have, I don't think our system is the best (see: World Health Organization). While your numbers may be correct about uninsured (again, I don't know where you got them from, since there are so many different numbers and 'facts' floating around out there), I don't think it's quite fair of you to jump to the conclusion that, while that number may not mean "no access", it doesn't also mean "tougher access". I would absolutely say that basic health care and at least DECENT access to it is definitely a fundamental right.

[drevans18]

:appl:

Health & shelter aren't privileges, they're rights. 3D-TV's & hookers are privileges.

+1.

[caveBEAR]

+1.

Sweet, now I'm at 3.

[theargylepilot]

:appl:

Health & shelter aren't privileges, they're rights. 3D-TV's & hookers are privileges.

<3

[Lueda Alia]

First, I'm not terribly impressed with the website. I'm not one of those people who say that Obama has done absolutely nothing, so it doesn't really do much for me. In any case, though, I'm pretty sure that someone could have easily done something along the lines of "What the f**k good has Bush done?" too. It pretty much just lists the minutia that all presidents do.

Second, I'll chime in on this whole "America's so far behind" debate. I, like many Americans, am against universal health care because I accept the tradeoff between quality and access. We have the best health care system in the world (and yes, I learned that from class, not some propaganda), but the drawback is that not everyone can access it, and I can accept that. I don't believe access to this great system is a basic human right that stands beside food, shelter, basic education, etc.
Wow.

I pretty much stopped reading your post right there. And I won't even try to really respond to this because I'm absolutely disgusted at the moment and would much rather prefer to not be extremely offensive. I'll just say that I cannot believe anyone can seriously feel that way.

[loveisdead]

Whole lotta dumb in here.

[Lueda Alia]

As for your views on healthcare, i just find them confusing - why do you think healthcare isn't a 'fundamental human right'? this is literally crazy to me (but i do live in a country that has universal healthcare). The fact that someone could DIE because they don't have the money to afford care is so scary its unreal.

I'll say it again, that part of his post made me flip and so sick to my stomach. I've been studying for my two sociology exams this week and poverty is one of the big issues that we cover, so reading such comments after learning about how much people suffer just because of money is so hard for me to deal with. I just can't stomach it.

I find attitudes like his so inhumane. I just don't really know what to say except that such things and the way that we put so much value on wealth make me lose faith in humanity.

[Dustin Harkins]

Firstly i'll take the college question 'cause it's the easiest - the levels of prestige are based on things like the A-Level grades/UCAS points you need to get into the course at the college of your choice - Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial London you would need nothing less than all A's/points equivalent of all A's in your 3 (or more) A-Levels, the shit ones you need like 3 E's or something. The better universities have better facilities, lecturers etc. (at my uni i read books by a guy who could've been my actual teacher if i'd got the grades to get into Birmingham Uni). It is based solely on your educational achievements, not money which is why a poor smart kid like myself was able to go, thats why those who didn't do well in their A-Level courses cannot get into the best universities.

As for your views on healthcare, i just find them confusing - why do you think healthcare isn't a 'fundamental human right'? this is literally crazy to me (but i do live in a country that has universal healthcare). The fact that someone could DIE because they don't have the money to afford care is so scary its unreal.

Agreed.

[reckoner]

There's nothing more Pro-life than that.

More like pro-self.

[S7ranburgLar]

you gotta love hearing an american call their health care system the best in the world.
i appreciate the lols provided in this thread.

also, i'm going to just stay out of american politics from now on. i've given up on america.
especially Prop 19 losing. like wtf? was there a groundbreaking scientific study, proving marijuana actually does any real harm to society that i've missed? because i can only assume it was voted down because of educated, carefully thought out decisions made by the people....
:rolleyes:

[caveBEAR]

you gotta love hearing an american call their health care system the best in the world.
i appreciate the lols provided in this thread.

also, i'm going to just stay out of american politics from now on. i've given up on america.
especially Prop 19 losing. like wtf? was there a groundbreaking scientific study, proving marijuana actually does any real harm to society that i've missed? because i can only assume it was voted down because of educated, carefully thought out decisions made by the people....
:rolleyes:

Prop 19 didn't pass? It did in this room...

[roche]

So you'd rather pay out your ass for a night in the hospital when you're hurt or sick than a few extra dollars for a blizzard and alcohol?

His priorities are a tad bit askew.

[PandaBear!]

I'll say it again, that part of his post made me flip and so sick to my stomach. I've been studying for my two sociology exams this week and poverty is one of the big issues that we cover, so reading such comments after learning about how much people suffer just because of money is so hard for me to deal with. I just can't stomach it.

I find attitudes like his so inhumane. I just don't really know what to say except that such things and the way that we put so much value on wealth make me lose faith in humanity.

I would say 'come and live in England, we have universal healthcare AND cheaper university/college!' but the gov.t announced today that tuition fees were going up to around £9000 a year ! :-(

I have a question though, the republicans are the conservative ones right? Because i just want to make sure before i say Conservatives are responsible for at least 90% of the problems in both our countries

[loveisdead]

I would say 'come and live in England, we have universal healthcare AND cheaper university/college!' but the gov.t announced today that tuition fees were going up to around £9000 a year ! :-(

I have a question though, the republicans are the conservative ones right? Because i just want to make sure before i say Conservatives are responsible for at least 90% of the problems in both our countries

Republicans call themselves conservatives. We don't have a party that resembles conservatism.

[bite2brkskn12]

So you'd rather pay out your ass for a night in the hospital when you're hurt or sick than a few extra dollars for a blizzard and alcohol?

First of all, it wouldn't just be those two things. I only used those two examples because those are two things I really noticed. I was only there for a week but overall everything was more expensive. I wanted to be honest and use examples i knew were true

[Nick Le]

i'm not looking forward to any of the things he has planned. He want's all kids to be able to go to college. It's so hard to get a job nowadays even with a college degree. Can you imagine if all kids had a college degree how much harder it would be. The whole universal health care thing is bullshit. It would most likely be just like public school. it'd be really nice in the suburbs/expensive areas and really shitty in the poorer areas. Not everyone is going to get the same treatment he's promising. Also, taxes and prices would be so ridiculous. Sure Canada has free healthcare, but if you want a blizzard from dairy queen it's like 7 dollars. $50 for a handle of Bacardi when you can get it here for like 25-27. I went to canada in may and I was not impressed by this.

Edit: sorry for the rant. Also, this is just my opinion and not fact.

A college education for everyone would be a really good thing and the country will benefit from it. And what does the cost of a blizzard or a handle of Bacardi have to do with healthcare?

[oldwirehands]

Site is dumb. Thread is dumb. Just a whole lot of dumb going around here, but what else is new?

[bite2brkskn12]

Wow! Typical ignorant American. You think that the cost of your booze and ice cream in Canada was a reflection of their countries stance on health care?

Thanks for clarifying that your rant was in fact, not fact and simply the ramblings of your shallow, South Park soaked, McDonalds fed brain.

First of all, i dont eat mcdoanlds or watch southpark. so nice try. I only used those two examples b/c they are something i saw with my own eyes. I lived in Canada for a year and I know the prices/taxes are different depending on the providence you live in.my point was just to say that prices and taxes will be alot more expensive if we have universal health care.

[Jason Tate]

Well, thanks for contributing something "smart" to it? :-|

[bite2brkskn12]

A college education for everyone would be a really good thing and the country will benefit from it. And what does the cost of a blizzard or a handle of Bacardi have to do with healthcare?

I agree that it would be awesome for all of american to be educated. I just think that it would make it even harder to get a job. That's all I was saying

[roche]

First, I'm not terribly impressed with the website. I'm not one of those people who say that Obama has done absolutely nothing, so it doesn't really do much for me. In any case, though, I'm pretty sure that someone could have easily done something along the lines of "What the f**k good has Bush done?" too. It pretty much just lists the minutia that all presidents do.

Second, I'll chime in on this whole "America's so far behind" debate. I, like many Americans, am against universal health care because I accept the tradeoff between quality and access. We have the best health care system in the world (and yes, I learned that from class, not some propaganda), but the drawback is that not everyone can access it, and I can accept that. I don't believe access to this great system is a basic human right that stands beside food, shelter, basic education, etc.

Additionally, I think people have a tendency to exaggerate the facts. In September, the number of uninsured rose to 50.7 million people, a whole 16% of our population. However, this isn't to say that that many are without health care. Growing up, my family never had health insurance because my dad was self-employed. When the need arose, we took care of ourselves. The point is that uninsured doesn't necessarily mean "no access." It just means that times will tougher during medical emergencies. Forcing everyone to accommodate the less than 16% just isn't worth it because as I said, I don't consider it a fundamental human right.

While I appreciate your wish to keep this discussion "civil", there is absolutely nothing civil about what you just said. And what makes this worse is that you're not even ignorant, you're just wholly apathetic to the prospect of your countryman dying. Maybe its just a Canadian thing, but to us 50.7 million people is an unacceptable number of human beings who don't have access to this fundamental human right. Where did your compassion go?

[Jason Tate]

First of all, i dont eat mcdoanlds or watch southpark. so nice try. I only used those two examples b/c they are something i saw with my own eyes. I lived in Canada for a year and I know the prices/taxes are different depending on the providence you live in.my point was just to say that prices and taxes will be alot more expensive if we have universal health care.
Not a very well substantiated point. The tax burden will be quite small on most Americans. And I haven't seen any economic research that would lead anyone to believe it will have any impact on prices of every day items.

[bite2brkskn12]

The fact he wants everyone to have the chance to go to college is a great thing. In the UK those days are over i think - i've luckily been able to afford to go & it costs me £3000+ a year for 3 years. Now our useless Conservative government has made it (or maybe just threatening) £7000+ a year, meaning my brother has little to no chance of going and money is 100% the reason he cannot go and its ridiculously unfair. The fact he's offering a better education to anyone & everyone is a good thing, believe me.
Universal healthcare is also not bullshit because, like an education, everyone is entitled to the best healthcare possible without factors like money preventing them. We have universal healthcare (the NHS) and Stephen Hawking says its amazing and he owes his life to it, making universal healthcare amazing :-d
Such a shame that you have the most intelligent, compassionate & fair president that you've had for years and even those who voted for him are now turning on him for changing things - which was, if i'm not mistaken, his main campaign slogan, yet its still shocking people.....




...........what? Only someone rich would say something like that. A privilege defined by what exactly, how much money you've earned? I can guarantee there are hundreds of thousands of people smart enough to go to college that are unable to afford to go, more that have to settle for a cheaper college because they cannot afford a good one. Intelligence should be the only deciding factor in the field of education, not money.

guess what buddy. I am going to college and I'm not rich or anything like that. I'm going to community college/taking out loans and working my ass off to get an education. I'm doing it for me. I understand where you are coming from but I don't agree.

[anthonydarko]

Lol at anyone who thinks health care is not a right.

[Vince Early]

I don't understand how people can think that health care and higher education should be rights to all citizens. I am truly baffled and disgusted when people try to say health care should not be a right because of the cost. How can someone put a cost on life?

[caveBEAR]

I don't understand how people can think that health care and higher education should be rights to all citizens. I am truly baffled and disgusted when people try to say health care should not be a right because of the cost. How can someone put a cost on life?

:squint:

Typo?

[nathaniel]

Obama = FAIL

[Dustin Harkins]

:squint:

Typo?

What I was thinking too, haha.

[bridgeofeldin]

When was this site made? I only saw it here and on facebook this morning. Could have been more beneficial if it came out before election day

[Dustin Harkins]

When was this site made? I only saw it here and on facebook this morning. Could have been more beneficial if it came out before election day

It did come out before election day. I've seen it around for about a week now.

[caveBEAR]

When was this site made? I only saw it here and on facebook this morning. Could have been more beneficial if it came out before election day

Doubtful. Obama could save a puppy from a burning building, and most people on the right would just bitch that there's already too many dogs, and Obama should have just let the puppy die.

Guy can do no right.

[ellie117]

First, I'm not terribly impressed with the website. I'm not one of those people who say that Obama has done absolutely nothing, so it doesn't really do much for me. In any case, though, I'm pretty sure that someone could have easily done something along the lines of "What the f**k good has Bush done?" too. It pretty much just lists the minutia that all presidents do.

Second, I'll chime in on this whole "America's so far behind" debate. I, like many Americans, am against universal health care because I accept the tradeoff between quality and access. We have the best health care system in the world (and yes, I learned that from class, not some propaganda), but the drawback is that not everyone can access it, and I can accept that. I don't believe access to this great system is a basic human right that stands beside food, shelter, basic education, etc.

Additionally, I think people have a tendency to exaggerate the facts. In September, the number of uninsured rose to 50.7 million people, a whole 16% of our population. However, this isn't to say that that many are without health care. Growing up, my family never had health insurance because my dad was self-employed. When the need arose, we took care of ourselves. The point is that uninsured doesn't necessarily mean "no access." It just means that times will tougher during medical emergencies. Forcing everyone to accommodate the less than 16% just isn't worth it because as I said, I don't consider it a fundamental human right.

But that's just my opinion. I don't mind if anyone disagrees with me, just please at least be civil about it. I tried to lay out my argument, so I would prefer not to simply be called a capitalist douchebag.

I also wanted to say something about this expensive college education debate too, but I realize that I'm far too ignorant about it to make any informed points. Could some people who live in these countries enlighten me as to how they work? How are they subsidized, and how does it affect your educational system overall? In other words, do your institutions of higher learning have different levels of prestige, or because they're all low cost, are they pretty much the same? I'm not trying to set anyone up; I simply don't know.

I'm a college student, living under my mother's roof, with my 23 year old college student sister and my 18 year old college sister. My father has neglected his legal duties for years. My mother was unjustly fired from one job and hired two days later at another hospital, and during the 2 weeks we didn't have health coverage (and we had no idea we weren't covered), I was admitted to the ER. Fortunately, being a full-time student with a minimum wage job and a single-parent household gains a person pity from Charity Health Care, who completely covered my $3300 ER visit. 9 months later I received a bill from the hospital, saying I owe $350 for prescription medications alone. I barely make $500 a month let alone be able to shell out a paycheck and a half for something that happened nearly a year ago. I'm not saying universal health care would solve this issue, but saying "times will tougher during medical emergencies" is ridiculous. Money makes the world go 'round and people who don't have the luxury of making thousands a month realize that. We don't depend on food stamps or welfare, but that doesn't mean we have the money to put up for emergent hospital visits that are necessary.

[PandaBear!]

guess what buddy. I am going to college and I'm not rich or anything like that. I'm going to community college/taking out loans and working my ass off to get an education. I'm doing it for me. I understand where you are coming from but I don't agree.

May i ask why you don't go to a university?
What i'm saying is if my younger brother wishes to get a degree at a university, which he definitely has the drive and intelligence to do, it would cost him between £15,000 and £18,000 for the 3 years' tuition fees alone - how is that fair, when for me my entire university costs will be £20,000 (tuition, loan repayments, accommodation, rent, living expenses etc. etc.). There's no fucking way he could cover those costs by himself, even if he took out student loans and got a job.
They are pricing intelligent people out of an education, which fucking sucks.

[PandaBear!]

Site is dumb. Thread is dumb. Just a whole lot of dumb going around here, but what else is new?

GTFO

[bridgeofeldin]

Guy can do no right.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd16/bigboindabrook/obama_jedi_knight-1.jpg

[oldwirehands]

GTFO

Well, I was until you quoted me. Dumb quote.

[MarshmallowKid]

First, I'm not terribly impressed with the website. I'm not one of those people who say that Obama has done absolutely nothing, so it doesn't really do much for me. In any case, though, I'm pretty sure that someone could have easily done something along the lines of "What the f**k good has Bush done?" too. It pretty much just lists the minutia that all presidents do.

Second, I'll chime in on this whole "America's so far behind" debate. I, like many Americans, am against universal health care because I accept the tradeoff between quality and access. We have the best health care system in the world (and yes, I learned that from class, not some propaganda), but the drawback is that not everyone can access it, and I can accept that. I don't believe access to this great system is a basic human right that stands beside food, shelter, basic education, etc.

Additionally, I think people have a tendency to exaggerate the facts. In September, the number of uninsured rose to 50.7 million people, a whole 16% of our population. However, this isn't to say that that many are without health care. Growing up, my family never had health insurance because my dad was self-employed. When the need arose, we took care of ourselves. The point is that uninsured doesn't necessarily mean "no access." It just means that times will tougher during medical emergencies. Forcing everyone to accommodate the less than 16% just isn't worth it because as I said, I don't consider it a fundamental human right.

Certain politicians would probably second guess starting an oil war if they knew their children, or even themselves, had to leave the comfort of their homes to risk their lives on behalf of their country. I guess it's just easier to see the war happen on CNN while you're having dinner. You're not there anyways, right?

My point is, wait until you need medical attention desperately and have no money to pay fot it. I'm sure you'll change your mind.

[serenab1221]

guess what buddy. I am going to college and I'm not rich or anything like that. I'm going to community college/taking out loans and working my ass off to get an education. I'm doing it for me. I understand where you are coming from but I don't agree.

.....how does this help your argument?

[serenab1221]

Certain politicians would probably second guess starting an oil war if they knew their children, or even themselves, had to leave the comfort of their homes to risk their lives on behalf of their country. I guess it's just easier to see the war happen on CNN while you're having dinner. You're not there anyways, right?

My point is, wait until you need medical attention desperately and have no money to pay fot it. I'm sure you'll change your mind.

Spoke my mind. It not their problem until it literally is their problem. So self-involved.

[PandaBear!]

Well, I was until you quoted me. Dumb quote.

Well, why the fuck are you even part of this website if it is "dumb", and is always dumb? Why are you contributing nothing worthwhile to this particular thread to make it less "dumb"?
I suppose you know it all though, and don't want to 'waste your time talking to dumb people', right?

[Gaugzilla]

New Zuhland has such a great economy and is such a great place to live, that people have been getting the fuck out of there in droves for the past 25 years. And guess what? All the dumb sheepfuckers come to Australia

almost 5 million Kiwis in the world, and over 1 million of them don't even fucking live in NZ. What does that tell you??

Just STFU

Sounds like someone needs to let loose some deeply repressed rage.

First, I'm not terribly impressed with the website. I'm not one of those people who say that Obama has done absolutely nothing, so it doesn't really do much for me. In any case, though, I'm pretty sure that someone could have easily done something along the lines of "What the f**k good has Bush done?" too. It pretty much just lists the minutia that all presidents do.

Second, I'll chime in on this whole "America's so far behind" debate. I, like many Americans, am against universal health care because I accept the tradeoff between quality and access. We have the best health care system in the world (and yes, I learned that from class, not some propaganda), but the drawback is that not everyone can access it, and I can accept that. I don't believe access to this great system is a basic human right that stands beside food, shelter, basic education, etc.
.

I know others have said it, but mother of God.

Obama = FAIL

Wow. You're 20-year-old and you're writing garbage like this. Nice contribution. Grow up.

[Scrandon]

So, he spent a lot of money. I see.
What good is money when the country sucks?

[heyiamcody]

First of all, i dont eat mcdoanlds or watch southpark. so nice try. I only used those two examples b/c they are something i saw with my own eyes. I lived in Canada for a year and I know the prices/taxes are different depending on the providence you live in.my point was just to say that prices and taxes will be alot more expensive if we have universal health care.
Come on man! You really aren't helping anyone to believe that you have the slightest clue of what you're talking about. Prices won't be impacted because of Universal Healthcare, at all. If you really believe that, sign up for some economics classes at that community college you've enrolled in and ask them to explain "the basics". The increase on the individual taxpayer is minimal in contrast to the benefit it provides. You should speak with people in a nation where they enjoy the benefits of universal health care and see what they think about it. See if they're crying about the cost. See if they are ultimately happier to know that a trip to the emergency room wouldn't wipe them out financially.

But God oh God, not at the cost of our booze! Anything!!! Just don't take our booze and blizzards!

[Ailite]

I love this site.

[heyiamcody]

I agree that it would be awesome for all of american to be educated. I just think that it would make it even harder to get a job. That's all I was saying
wow! I hope you're able to step back and take a look at your logic (or lack of logic i should say) here. It seems to me that you're saying, when the citizens become more educated and thereby more capable of securing better jobs for themselves and bettering society, you're against it because it would make it more difficult for people like yourself to find a job? I can't believe you don't see how self-insulting your own comment is.

Please give us a few more of these pearls of wisdom.

[InTheatersNow]

it's not like you wouldn't have the option to continue having your own private healthcare.



But you'd still have to pay for public healthcare.

Also, can we please get rid of Medicare and Social Security. I already pay for these it is called Health Insurance and a 401K.

[vaguestcargo]

First, I'm not terribly impressed with the website. I'm not one of those people who say that Obama has done absolutely nothing, so it doesn't really do much for me. In any case, though, I'm pretty sure that someone could have easily done something along the lines of "What the f**k good has Bush done?" too. It pretty much just lists the minutia that all presidents do.

Second, I'll chime in on this whole "America's so far behind" debate. I, like many Americans, am against universal health care because I accept the tradeoff between quality and access. We have the best health care system in the world (and yes, I learned that from class, not some propaganda), but the drawback is that not everyone can access it, and I can accept that. I don't believe access to this great system is a basic human right that stands beside food, shelter, basic education, etc.

Additionally, I think people have a tendency to exaggerate the facts. In September, the number of uninsured rose to 50.7 million people, a whole 16% of our population. However, this isn't to say that that many are without health care. Growing up, my family never had health insurance because my dad was self-employed. When the need arose, we took care of ourselves. The point is that uninsured doesn't necessarily mean "no access." It just means that times will tougher during medical emergencies. Forcing everyone to accommodate the less than 16% just isn't worth it because as I said, I don't consider it a fundamental human right.

But that's just my opinion. I don't mind if anyone disagrees with me, just please at least be civil about it. I tried to lay out my argument, so I would prefer not to simply be called a capitalist douchebag.

I also wanted to say something about this expensive college education debate too, but I realize that I'm far too ignorant about it to make any informed points. Could some people who live in these countries enlighten me as to how they work? How are they subsidized, and how does it affect your educational system overall? In other words, do your institutions of higher learning have different levels of prestige, or because they're all low cost, are they pretty much the same? I'm not trying to set anyone up; I simply don't know.


Just because folks are "insured" doesn't mean health care is automatically affordable. Premiums, co-pays and non-coverage can be a real bitch, even for the "insured".

[Lueda Alia]

I would say 'come and live in England, we have universal healthcare AND cheaper university/college!' but the gov.t announced today that tuition fees were going up to around £9000 a year ! :-(

I have a question though, the republicans are the conservative ones right? Because i just want to make sure before i say Conservatives are responsible for at least 90% of the problems in both our countries
I'm pretty happy in Canada. I get free health care and my tuition - at one of the best schools in the country - is only $6,000 (£3,000) a year!

Canada has a Conservative party, but yeah, the Republicans are the "conservative" party in the US.

[vaguestcargo]

Doubtful. Obama could save a puppy from a burning building, and most people on the right would just bitch that there's already too many dogs, and Obama should have just let the puppy die.

Guy can do no right.

and yet another +1

[PandaBear!]

I'm pretty happy in Canada. I get free health care and my tuition - at one of the best schools in the country - is only $6,000 (£3,000) a year!

Canada has a Conservative party, but yeah, the Republicans are the "conservative" party in the US.

Yeah, for me its only £3000 a year (at NOT one of the bests schools in the country lol), but for my younger brother it could be as much as £9000 when he wants to go - very unfair.
Canada seems cool - this one time some guy was painting our house and his son & daughter live there (Ontario i think? something like that) and he went on a 30 minute + rant on how much better Canada was than any other country in the world, mostly because of the healthcare and how well his daughter was treated in hospital after the birth of her child.
And there's lots of snow & PandaBear! loves him some snow....

Edit: Just realised you live in Ontario!? How dare they call your town/city (?) London - the name London is OURS haha

[oldwirehands]

Well, why the fuck are you even part of this website if it is "dumb", and is always dumb? Why are you contributing nothing worthwhile to this particular thread to make it less "dumb"?
I suppose you know it all though, and don't want to 'waste your time talking to dumb people', right?

I'm expressing my dumb opinion simply just to express it. No message or meaning behind it at all. I just wanted to have a voice I guess.

[EndHasAStart]

The fact he wants everyone to have the chance to go to college is a great thing. In the UK those days are over i think - i've luckily been able to afford to go & it costs me £3000+ a year for 3 years. Now our useless Conservative government has made it (or maybe just threatening) £7000+ a year, meaning my brother has little to no chance of going and money is 100% the reason he cannot go and its ridiculously unfair. The fact he's offering a better education to anyone & everyone is a good thing, believe me.


Ignorant tool. (*Edit, kinda harsh, my bad)

I'm also at uni in the UK. There is absolutely no reason why higher fees would stop your brother from going to university; household income is completely irrelevant. Student Finance lends us money for tuition at the moment, does it not? And it will continue to do so under the proposed scheme. Your brother won't pay anything until he's on £21k+, and even then it's in minute installments. So, the only thing that could potentially make university unaffordable for someone is if they aren't prepared to work hard and get a decent pass, making themselves much less likely to get a job.

Another point: let's not assume that fees are doomed to rocket in every course at every good uni. When a university has a greater choice for the point at which it prices a course, it will have to consider how much money it needs to make the course worthwhile, and weigh it up against how much students will be willing to pay, given their likely eventual wages. There will be no incentive to massively increase fees for, say, a media studies degree, when potential students would realise that they would spend forever paying their loan back and wouldn't apply. Better universities will no doubt charge a lot more than they do now, but their students will be far more likely to get a well-paid job - given the extra capital that is available for teaching - so, rich or poor, will, for the most part, have no trouble paying back the loan.

Universities either improve or drop out of the system. World-class education is available to all. Degrees become more valuable as fewer people (the hardworking and aspirational, not the rich, I should point out) take them. Less taxpayer money wasted on useless degrees (do you want to be paying for someone's Golf Management course?).

To be clear though, I am not just in support of academic qualifications. I just don't believe that university, with lectures and seminars, is the best place for learning some trades and professions. As regards to these courses, I would make an official separation between academic degrees and vocational courses, with degrees being funded as described above, and vocational courses being run and charged by industry and businesses, who would face the same decision as universities, forcing them to keep fees at a reasonable rate.

On another note, I<3 the NHS.

[Lueda Alia]

Yeah, for me its only £3000 a year (at NOT one of the bests schools in the country lol), but for my younger brother it could be as much as £9000 when he wants to go - very unfair.
Canada seems cool - this one time some guy was painting our house and his son & daughter live there (Ontario i think? something like that) and he went on a 30 minute + rant on how much better Canada was than any other country in the world, mostly because of the healthcare and how well his daughter was treated in hospital after the birth of her child.
And there's lots of snow & PandaBear! loves him some snow....

Edit: Just realised you live in Ontario!? How dare they call your town/city (?) London - the name London is OURS haha
That really sucks. I can't believe people think that it's okay to charge college students so much to get a higher education. It really baffles me. We should try to make it easier for people to go to college, not harder. It's just so ridiculous.

Haha yeah, I live in Ontario. You'd be surprised at how many "London"'s there are in North America! But yeah, I love it here. I'm actually from Albania, but I've lived here for 9 years (on November 11th!), and I also lived in Germany for a while. I think Canada's great, though of course, there's room for improvement. I think I just really appreciate people's attitudes here so much.

I've visited England twice already and I like it there. Can't ever imagine living anywhere else but here, though. You should visit sometime. :-)

[EndHasAStart]

Conservatives are responsible for at least 90% of the problems in both our countries

Although you realise that the Conservative Party in the UK are nothing like the Republicans, right? They may both believe in a smaller state but that's about it.

The Conservative Party are economic liberals without brown-nosing big-business, rather because they see the benefits of using markets to solve problems. They are also socially liberal, openly supporting gay rights, rehabilitation over punishment, religious freedom, freedom of speech etc. There are also plenty of Conservatives are far more open to the idea of the decriminalisation of drugs, than the heavy-handed, authoritarian Labour Party (Remember Labour sacking the top medical guy who suggested legalisation, because they disagreed?)

No gun-slinging, racist, homophonic, war-mongering shit here, buddy.

[Jamos4184]

politics

[Vince Early]

:squint:

Typo?
Yeah my bad it was rushed.

[PandaBear!]

Ignorant tool. (*Edit, kinda harsh, my bad)

I'm also at uni in the UK. There is absolutely no reason why higher fees would stop your brother from going to university; household income is completely irrelevant. Student Finance lends us money for tuition at the moment, does it not? And it will continue to do so under the proposed scheme. Your brother won't pay anything until he's on £21k+, and even then it's in minute installments. So, the only thing that could potentially make university unaffordable for someone is if they aren't prepared to work hard and get a decent pass, making themselves much less likely to get a job.

Another point: let's not assume that fees are doomed to rocket in every course at every good uni. When a university has a greater choice for the point at which it prices a course, it will have to consider how much money it needs to make the course worthwhile, and weigh it up against how much students will be willing to pay, given their likely eventual wages. There will be no incentive to massively increase fees for, say, a media studies degree, when potential students would realise that they would spend forever paying their loan back and wouldn't apply. Better universities will no doubt charge a lot more than they do now, but their students will be far more likely to get a well-paid job - given the extra capital that is available for teaching - so, rich or poor, will, for the most part, have no trouble paying back the loan.

Universities either improve or drop out of the system. World-class education is available to all. Degrees become more valuable as fewer people (the hardworking and aspirational, not the rich, I should point out) take them. Less taxpayer money wasted on useless degrees (do you want to be paying for someone's Golf Management course?).

To be clear though, I am not just in support of academic qualifications. I just don't believe that university, with lectures and seminars, is the best place for learning some trades and professions. As regards to these courses, I would make an official separation between academic degrees and vocational courses, with degrees being funded as described above, and vocational courses being run and charged by industry and businesses, who would face the same decision as universities, forcing them to keep fees at a reasonable rate.

On another note, I<3 the NHS.

What would you rather pay off - £20,000 or £35-40,000? No-One just accepts a debt of that much, regardless of how they're paying back
Will Student Loans Company still offer maintenance loans/grants if they're already dishing out potentially £9,000 per person?
Will they still offer the FULL tuition if it's that high?
My mid table uni has already said they will be upping tuition for every creative arts/graphics/film/media/advertising/PR degree by £4,000 - so, as you suggested people may not even apply anymore
You are also ignorant for acting like this wont have any effect at all
You may not think uni is the best place for learning trades, but a degree on your CV shows employers a lot more than academic qualifications in that subject - dedication, ambition etc
The cost of university Already puts some people off (its foolish, but it still happens) Jacking up the tuition fees will d that to even more people

[PandaBear!]

Although you realise that the Conservative Party in the UK are nothing like the Republicans, right? They may both believe in a smaller state but that's about it.

The Conservative Party are economic liberals without brown-nosing big-business, rather because they see the benefits of using markets to solve problems. They are also socially liberal, openly supporting gay rights, rehabilitation over punishment, religious freedom, freedom of speech etc. There are also plenty of Conservatives are far more open to the idea of the decriminalisation of drugs, than the heavy-handed, authoritarian Labour Party (Remember Labour sacking the top medical guy who suggested legalisation, because they disagreed?)

No gun-slinging, racist, homophonic, war-mongering shit here, buddy.

I was joking about that - i thought that would be obvious seeing as i know nothing of US conservatives, and UK conservatives have inherited the majority of our problems from the previous leaders. But i'm going to have a laugh with my response...

One name - Margaret Thatcher. Leopards don't change their spots.
The class divide will be even bigger in this country by the end of their reign
Cameron's forehead is too big & shiny, therefore can't be trusted....
They are all posh twats who didn't even understand The Jam song 'eton rifles'.
They want to bring Hunting back which is mean to foxes; a key part of British society
Mock The Week has taught me the Conservatives suck so i believe it.

On a serious note, most of the liberal views you outlined up there maybe could come from the party they share government with?

[bite2brkskn12]

May i ask why you don't go to a university?
What i'm saying is if my younger brother wishes to get a degree at a university, which he definitely has the drive and intelligence to do, it would cost him between £15,000 and £18,000 for the 3 years' tuition fees alone - how is that fair, when for me my entire university costs will be £20,000 (tuition, loan repayments, accommodation, rent, living expenses etc. etc.). There's no fucking way he could cover those costs by himself, even if he took out student loans and got a job.
They are pricing intelligent people out of an education, which fucking sucks.
i don't go to a university because I can't afford it.

[oldwirehands]

I know that I said I wasn't going to put any real input into this thread, but I have to point out how so many people point fingers at conservatives, yet I haven't seen any real criticism of liberals. The left has not come up with any great solutions to the problems we face either.

[bite2brkskn12]

.....how does this help your argument?
b/c i'm a struggling student and i'm not asking anyone for a hand out.

[PandaBear!]

That really sucks. I can't believe people think that it's okay to charge college students so much to get a higher education. It really baffles me. We should try to make it easier for people to go to college, not harder. It's just so ridiculous.

Haha yeah, I live in Ontario. You'd be surprised at how many "London"'s there are in North America! But yeah, I love it here. I'm actually from Albania, but I've lived here for 9 years (on November 11th!), and I also lived in Germany for a while. I think Canada's great, though of course, there's room for improvement. I think I just really appreciate people's attitudes here so much.

I've visited England twice already and I like it there. Can't ever imagine living anywhere else but here, though. You should visit sometime. :-)

I want to travel after i've finished university, and USA/Canada was at the top of my list for a while (New York, Niagra Falls, searching for Bigfoot :-d ) But now i want to go to Asia - Japan, Bhutan, Tibet. Or Africa - Gabon & Equatorial Guinea in 2012 for an African football tournament. Fuck, there are so many awesome places to go, i can't decide....

Maybe i'll come to London, ON if you have a couch i can crash on - all i'll do is lie there all day drinking, smoking, eating all available food, cursing randomly, not showering for days at a time, leave my stuff everywhere, not clean up after myself - you wont even know i'm there! ;-) p.s i'll probably be naked most of the time to. And i'm 475lbs. Sound good?


i don't go to a university because I can't afford it.

Would you go if you could afford it?

[Lueda Alia]

I know that I said I wasn't going to put any real input into this thread, but I have to point out how so many people point fingers at conservatives, yet I haven't seen any real criticism of liberals. The left has not come up with any great solutions to the problems we face either.
That's probably because they created one hell of a mess in the US in recent years.

[Lueda Alia]

I want to travel after i've finished university, and USA/Canada was at the top of my list for a while (New York, Niagra Falls, searching for Bigfoot :-d ) But now i want to go to Asia - Japan, Bhutan, Tibet. Or Africa - Gabon & Equatorial Guinea in 2012 for an African football tournament. Fuck, there are so many awesome places to go, i can't decide....

Maybe i'll come to London, ON if you have a couch i can crash on - all i'll do is lie there all day drinking, smoking, eating all available food, cursing randomly, not showering for days at a time, leave my stuff everywhere, not clean up after myself - you wont even know i'm there! ;-) p.s i'll probably be naked most of the time to. And i'm 475lbs. Sound good?
I love traveling and I do it a lot, so I can definitely relate. It's pretty much the best thing in the world.

Oh, you sound like my type of guy. Feel free to visit anytime!

[PandaBear!]

I love traveling and I do it a lot, so I can definitely relate. It's pretty much the best thing in the world.

Oh, you sound like my type of guy. Feel free to visit anytime!

I wouldn't know 'cause i've never even left the country :-( - my family was pretty poor back when holidays with family was actually something i wanted to do, now their divorced and even poorer & im too old to go on holiday with them i say. And my friends have never done the group holiday thing, and when they traveled i was still in "high school".

And i'm sorry, but i've lied and mislead you in my previous post - i'm around 170-180lbs, not fat. I'm guessing thats a dealbreaker for you...

[*crying stars*]

I know that I said I wasn't going to put any real input into this thread, but I have to point out how so many people point fingers at conservatives, yet I haven't seen any real criticism of liberals. The left has not come up with any great solutions to the problems we face either.

I don't think people are saying that the Democratic party has been flawless when dealing with issues, it's just that the loudest criticisms today are mostly from mud-slinging people who tend to side on the right- it's more like a counterpoint.

[oldwirehands]

That's probably because they created one hell of a mess in the US in recent years.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean more can't be done to clean things up. Society is looking for a voice for its discontent with liberalism, and right now, the right is offering that.The dynamics of the liberal's own system is what creates the right wing's reaction. In order to save the left, it will need to be revitalized and more radical in order to come up with the solutions to the problems we face. The system we have is failing and something else will eventually replace it. I'm afraid of what that something else could possibly be.

[Jason Tate]

I disagree with the premise that "society is looking for a voice for its discontent with liberalism." Virtually all parts of "liberalism" when polled are things "society" agrees with; or need.

[oldwirehands]

I disagree with the premise that "society is looking for a voice for its discontent with liberalism." Virtually all parts of "liberalism" when polled are things "society" agrees with; or need.

I shouldn't have used the word society. Its too general. The point I was trying to make is that a lot of people are lost and the right is appealing to those people. That is why the poll results were not really a surprise for me.

[Jason Tate]

I shouldn't have used the word society. Its too general. The point I was trying to make is that a lot of people are lost and the right is appealing to those people. That is why the poll results were not really a surprise for me.
A lot of people are lost and the left is appealing to those people as well.

[serenab1221]

b/c i'm a struggling student and i'm not asking anyone for a hand out.

Right because everybody who can't afford coverage is "asking for a handout".

[oldwirehands]

A lot of people are lost and the left is appealing to those people as well.

I'm afraid it might not appeal to enough people.

[Jason Tate]

I'm afraid it might not appeal to enough people.
The data strongly disagrees. Especially looking at age and the individual policies.

[oldwirehands]

The data strongly disagrees. Especially looking at age and the individual policies.

I'm not quite sure what data you are talking about, but the map I looked at early this morning sure was filled with a lot of red. I haven't looked at the election results in any more detail. As much as I would like to have hope in the left, I've been in far too pessimistic of a mood to let myself have any of that.

[Jonnyborg]

He banned my beloved clove cigarettes. fuck him.

[Jason Tate]

I'm not quite sure what data you are talking about, but the map I looked at early this morning sure was filled with a lot of red. I haven't looked at the election results in any more detail. As much as I would like to have hope in the left, I've been in far too pessimistic of a mood to let myself have any of that.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/assets_c/2010/11/image%20%283%29-thumb-454x280-28588.png

Look at who voted, and you can see why.

[Gaston]

old people just want the days of roy rogers back, and they'll vote for anybody who promises them that

[jawstheme]

Someone on the first page complained that Obama might make it so everyone would be able to go to college. I stopped reading after that. Does it get any better?

[Thesleepingwell]

I might live across the pond but I ask that same question.
I feel the pain though, because politics here in the UK is fucked as well.

[Tinnerz]

I am utterly floored that there are people who don't think healthcare is a fundamental right. Holy Christ on a unicycle...

I think people would be most satisfied if more moderate candidates were in office. However, most of those people lost/were voted out last night. These next two years are basically going to suck unless the wingnuts on both ends can get their heads out of their own asses and work together to get something accomplished.

[drcroc2]

health care isn't a right it is a service
that we should pay for and not expect for free

doctors just need to stop being greedy

[Lueda Alia]

health care isn't a right it is a service
that we should pay for and not expect for free

doctors just need to stop being greedy
Well, if paying for it makes it a service and not a right, then the same goes for pretty much everything else that we consider a "right."

[PandaBear!]

health care isn't a right it is a service
that we should pay for and not expect for free

doctors just need to stop being greedy

Isn't the greedy thing for doctors to do to charge money, i.e what they are already doing?

[Jason Tate]

Well, if paying for it makes it a service and not a right, then the same goes for pretty much everything else that we consider a "right."

health care isn't a right it is a service
that we should pay for and not expect for free

doctors just need to stop being greedy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance_%28philosophy%29

[Lueda Alia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance_%28philosophy%29
John Rawls is my favourite philosopher. :-)

[xcloud66x]

I don't care if you call me a commie, but no multi-billionaire deserves that much money no matter how much effort they put into gaining it. They can afford to give up a little money and support a few poor people trying to make ends meet.

[fredrico0012]

oh please, italy has universal healthcare and the second biggest bottle of jagermeister you can get was $15 at the grocery store. anyway, that has nothing to do with the healthcare debate. if you'd rather go nearly into bankruptcy for something like cancer treatment instead of having it simply being taken care of by the government (and by this, i mean taking a couple of extra dollars from your paycheck or taxing items so they are slightly more expensive), then you're cray cray. universal healthcare benefits everyone. and also, it's not like you wouldn't have the option to continue having your own private healthcare.

it's ridiculous that in america, there are so many people kissing the ass of christianity, which teaches compassion and charity, yet there are so little people that are truly compassionate or charitable. everyone has the right to be healthy.

So my taxes have to pay for people who abuse their body with drug and alcohol because they have the right to be healthy? Everyone complains about this countries increasing debt. What causes it is the government giving out entitlement payments.

[quizonmyface]

Obama still gets a fair bit of positive press over here (in the UK) but it's pretty apparent that there is a lot of hating going on in the states.

[Ollie McKraut]

"expanded government"

"expanded government"

"expanded government"

[serenab1221]

Obama still gets a fair bit of positive press over here (in the UK) but it's pretty apparent that there is a lot of hating going on in the states.

Far more than is deserved. See in the UK, people are smart....

[serenab1221]

So my taxes have to pay for people who abuse their body with drug and alcohol because they have the right to be healthy? Everyone complains about this countries increasing debt. What causes it is the government giving out entitlement payments.

Yes because that case applies to every person who legitimately needs it to live as well.

p.s. Your taxes pay for prisons as well. We're already helping the bad guys.

[LostAllways]

Wow! Typical ignorant American. You think that the cost of your booze and ice cream in Canada was a reflection of their countries stance on health care?

Thanks for clarifying that your rant was in fact, not fact and simply the ramblings of your shallow, South Park soaked, McDonalds fed brain.

Wait... South Park? South Park's actually a pretty witty show -- it's all about politics. Yeah, at the surface, it looks pretty fucking stupid, but the producers of the show are smart guys and the messages they send with the show are fairly intelligent.

[serenab1221]

I don't care if you call me a commie, but no multi-billionaire deserves that much money no matter how much effort they put into gaining it. They can afford to give up a little money and support a few poor people trying to make ends meet.

I agree that they can afford it, but I don't think it should be forced. The government is not Robin Hood nor should it be.

These multi-billionaires most likely run successful corporations. We need to make sure that they can create jobs, so that they can help hire people who are having trouble making ends meet.

So , in a way, they would be helping them. Just not using their own personal funds, no matter how ridiculously overpaid they may be.

[jawstheme]

Wait... South Park? South Park's actually a pretty witty show -- it's all about politics. Yeah, at the surface, it looks pretty fucking stupid, but the producers of the show are smart guys and the messages they send with the show are fairly intelligent.


Seriously, South Park is the smartest show on TV. What a moron.

[captivewear]

I agree that they can afford it, but I don't think it should be forced. The government is not Robin Hood nor should it be.

These multi-billionaires most likely run successful corporations. We need to make sure that they can create jobs, so that they can help hire people who are having trouble making ends meet.

So , in a way, they would be helping them. Just not using their own personal funds, no matter how ridiculously overpaid they may be.
The problem with current tax situation is that anyone making more then a million a year is paying no more then 15% taxes and is often paying less because of write offs and tax loop holes. Large corporations getting tax refunds and paying zero in federal taxes while small business owners pay 35% on top of state taxes, insurances for their company and employees, and daily operating cost. It amazes me that any small businesses even succeed in America now adays. I think this country needs to get back to the small business and middle class running this country's economy. In my opinion we don't need 80% of the corporations in America. Corporations don't put much money back into local economy like small businesses do. Make the corporations pay their part because right now they aren't and it is people like me and you paying for it in many ways...

[lmorris956]

First, I would like to sincerely apologize to anyone I offended (morally or intellectually) with my previous comment. I was only stating my opinion based on what I believe to be true and just personal reflection. I'm honestly not trying to be a troll, I only thought that I could add something productive to the conversation. I know it comes off as terribly cold, but if you give me a second chance, I'll try to explain myself.

Some people have trouble with the claim that our system is not the best in the world. Somebody even cited the WHO, but didn't give a specific link. I'll just take your word for it. I was under the impression because, as I said, I learned it in class. My professor said that our system is the best because it responds to demand. If there is foreseeable profit in an area of research, then it will get funding in a private system whereas it might not under a government-funded system. For the same reason, I was told that we have the best technology, doctors, etc. If I am wrong, if someone has facts to the contrary, I can accept it. I'm not so stubborn that I can't admit being wrong.

As to the "not a fundamental right" issue, if you disagree with me, just say so. Please don't call me dumb. I know I can't change anyone's mind, but if I could perhaps re-frame it, I might not seem as crazy. I just think that when it comes to rights, health care just isn't on the same level as food, clean water, and shelter. Not that I'm seriously proposing it, but I'd rather that all money we would spend on universal health care goes to help poverty in Africa, for example. I just don't see it on that very basic level, and as such, I believe that taxing us all and decreasing the quality of our system (if it indeed would- I understand if you disagree) outweighs the benefits that we would get from it. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but in my personal opinion, the benefits don't outweigh the costs. Like I said, I'm guessing that that's not going to change anyone's minds. I just hope that I appear less crazy now.

Someone commented that my statements were simply pro-self. This is where we differ- I don't see that as an INHERENTLY bad thing. Too much of it does have negative consequences, but it's not a bad thing in itself. I don't want to sound like a superior prick talking about my philosophy experience, but it might help to contextualize where I come from. I've read a lot of philosophy- I've read a lot of things from Marx to Ayn Rand, all with an open mind. It just so happens that after all of this, I find my personal philosophy sides more with Rand than Marx. I'm NOT an objectivist by far, but I do believe more in self-interest than the common good. The good of others only goes so far with me, and health care just happens to be where I draw the line.

I know that it sounds so callous, but again, please let me put it in context. At the moment, I don't really believe in God, I don't really believe in a soul. I've also studied a lot of science; I just see things very rationally, so emotion just doesn't play too heavily into my beliefs. Please don't think me a psychopath for saying that, it's just that empathy only goes so far with me, and it just doesn't go as far as health care.

@PandaBear- I want to try to address your comments specifically at a later time because you had the courtesy to actually make a point. I'm just trying to defend myself from everyone's attacks at the moment.

FINAL NOTE: I'm honestly not a bad guy. Please don't just think me a troll or something in the future if/when I post on other forums. I'm not looking to be the next zion; I just happen to have a different opinion on this matter, and I seriously won't press the point if so many disagree with me.

[serenab1221]

The problem with current tax situation is that anyone making more then a million a year is paying no more then 15% taxes and is often paying less because of write offs and tax loop holes. Large corporations getting tax refunds and paying zero in federal taxes while small business owners pay 35% on top of state taxes, insurances for their company and employees, and daily operating cost. It amazes me that any small businesses even succeed in America now adays. I think this country needs to get back to the small business and middle class running this country's economy. In my opinion we don't need 80% of the corporations in America. Corporations don't put much money back into local economy like small businesses do. Make the corporations pay their part because right now they aren't and it is people like me and you paying for it in many ways...

You make really strong points there. I stand corrected.

Yeah, the tax situation needs to be fixed up. Unfortunately, corporations are in our politicians' pockets.

[serenab1221]

First, I would like to sincerely apologize to anyone I offended (morally or intellectually) with my previous comment. I was only stating my opinion based on what I believe to be true and just personal reflection. I'm honestly not trying to be a troll, I only thought that I could add something productive to the conversation. I know it comes off as terribly cold, but if you give me a second chance, I'll try to explain myself.

Some people have trouble with the claim that our system is not the best in the world. Somebody even cited the WHO, but didn't give a specific link. I'll just take your word for it. I was under the impression because, as I said, I learned it in class. My professor said that our system is the best because it responds to demand. If there is foreseeable profit in an area of research, then it will get funding in a private system whereas it might not under a government-funded system. For the same reason, I was told that we have the best technology, doctors, etc. If I am wrong, if someone has facts to the contrary, I can accept it. I'm not so stubborn that I can't admit being wrong.

As to the "not a fundamental right" issue, if you disagree with me, just say so. Please don't call me dumb. I know I can't change anyone's mind, but if I could perhaps re-frame it, I might not seem as crazy. I just think that when it comes to rights, health care just isn't on the same level as food, clean water, and shelter. Not that I'm seriously proposing it, but I'd rather that all money we would spend on universal health care goes to help poverty in Africa, for example. I just don't see it on that very basic level, and as such, I believe that taxing us all and decreasing the quality of our system (if it indeed would- I understand if you disagree) outweighs the benefits that we would get from it. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but in my personal opinion, the benefits don't outweigh the costs. Like I said, I'm guessing that that's not going to change anyone's minds. I just hope that I appear less crazy now.

Someone commented that my statements were simply pro-self. This is where we differ- I don't see that as an INHERENTLY bad thing. Too much of it does have negative consequences, but it's not a bad thing in itself. I don't want to sound like a superior prick talking about my philosophy experience, but it might help to contextualize where I come from. I've read a lot of philosophy- I've read a lot of things from Marx to Ayn Rand, all with an open mind. It just so happens that after all of this, I find my personal philosophy sides more with Rand than Marx. I'm NOT an objectivist by far, but I do believe more in self-interest than the common good. The good of others only goes so far with me, and health care just happens to be where I draw the line.

I know that it sounds so callous, but again, please let me put it in context. At the moment, I don't really believe in God, I don't really believe in a soul. I've also studied a lot of science; I just see things very rationally, so emotion just doesn't play too heavily into my beliefs. Please don't think me a psychopath for saying that, it's just that empathy only goes so far with me, and it just doesn't go as far as health care.

@PandaBear- I want to try to address your comments specifically at a later time because you had the courtesy to actually make a point. I'm just trying to defend myself from everyone's attacks at the moment.

FINAL NOTE: I'm honestly not a bad guy. Please don't just think me a troll or something in the future if/when I post on other forums. I'm not looking to be the next zion; I just happen to have a different opinion on this matter, and I seriously won't press the point if so many disagree with me.

You, sir, have all my respect. You really have handled yourself well with the responses on this thread, and have not turned to juvenile insults or ignorant statements to defend yourself.

While I may not agree with you completely, I do appreciate you explaining your points of view thoroughly. I like to have an open mind and at least understand other perspectives on issues, and with everything you've said I feel as though I can see things from your side as well.

As for our system being the best in the world, it very well could be, but I honestly couldn't tell you. I do think it is flawed, however, and needs some patching up.

As for the "fundamental right" issue, I can see your logic, while I do not completely agree. I guess being around the health care system frequently as my mother works in a hospital, and seeing the conditions and flaws first hand, has caused my opinion to change over the years.

[captivewear]

I am going to make a list of things that Obama has done in the 2 years he has been in Office...
-Pulled the troops out of Iraq
-Made huge progress in repealing Don't ask Don't Tell.
-Giving small businesses tax breaks and benefits for hiring new employees.
-Giving tax breaks to 95% of America (more then the Bush tax breaks. Obama messed up here because he didn't tell anyone and everyone who would listen that he did)
-Signed a detailed executive order to ban torture and inhumane treatment of prisoners.
-Signed an order banning gifts from lobbyists and banning anyone from working in an agency they had lobbied in previous years. Promptly made the order toothless by immediately granting a waiver to a former defense lobbyist.
-Adopt the economic substance doctrine, a policy that states that tax changes must have significant economic justification, as a federal law
-Require insurance companies "to cover pre-existing conditions so all Americans, regardless of their health status or history.
-Require that all children have health care coverage. Every kid should be able to do to the doctors. I dont care who they are who how much their parents make they should be able to get meds and the care they need.
-Require health plans to disclose the percentage of premiums that actually goes to paying for patient care as opposed to administrative costs.
-Fully fund the VA so it has all the resources it needs to serve the veterans who need it, when they need it.
-Provide funds to help communities, nonprofit organizations and police combat domestic violence, sexual assault and stalking.
-End the abuse of the supplemental budgets, where much of the money has been lost, by creating system of oversight for war funds as stringent as in the regular budget.
-increasing federal resources and logistic support to local emergency planning efforts
-Release Prez records. Will nullify the Bush attempts to make the timely release of presidential records more difficult.
-eliminate wasteful subsidies to private student lenders, which will save nearly $6 billion dollars per year, and invest the savings in additional student aid.
-federal policies to encourage voluntary water banks, wastewater treatment, and other market-based conservation measures" to address the water shortage in western states.
-Extend grants for College students.

I could keep going but I amt tired of typing. Don't get me wrong I am not saying Obama has done everything or that he has been the best president ever. But, I will say that he is getting ripped for things that he shouldn't be because the American people are getting impatient. I don't blame them for being upset but you can't give all the blame to Obama. Call your local congressmen, senate, governor, etc. and see what they are doing about your local economy and jobs. If you have include the fact that Obama can't get much done because the Republicans are filibustering nearly everything and you have to put out some blame to the people who are hiring. Stop bashing Obama for everything and start asking why corporations aren't hiring? No, not everyone is hurting right now and with a lot of corporate tax loop holes they aren't paying much if anything at all in taxes yet they aren't hiring? Companies grossing $250 million in profits can't hire another 1,000 employees? Top executives getting million is not hundreds of millions of dollars in bonuses that could create thousands of jobs yet no one is blaming corporate America for anything and for some odd reason they are thanking them. Well for me I won't be thanking corporate America for anything anytime soon.

[drcroc2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance_%28philosophy%29

My mind is free. I have only one life.

In terms of being behind a 'veil of ignorance'...How much are you willing to avert risk for yourself? I'm not willing to my own use money (which I don't NEED, but fully enjoying using in order to live) to pay for the lives of those I have no relation to (even though they might be nice people). Which brings me to my original point... If you're saving my life then I will pay my own debts and not rely on anyone else to do it for me.

If I lived somewhere where government funded healthcare made sense economically, I would be all for it, but unfortunately that place isn't America. Oh and if you wanna wiki battle then:

but really, I just come to this website to talk about how much I like Fear Before and shit like that.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/International_Comparison_-_Healthcare_spending_as_%25_GDP.png /800px-International_Comparison_-_Healthcare_spending_as_%25_GDP.png

[saysmydoctor]

Progress towards repealing DADT? Doesn't fit.

[Scrandon]

More tax cuts than the Bush Tax Cuts? Doesn't fit.

[Modern Leper]

i'm not looking forward to any of the things he has planned. He want's all kids to be able to go to college. It's so hard to get a job nowadays even with a college degree. Can you imagine if all kids had a college degree how much harder it would be. The whole universal health care thing is bullshit. It would most likely be just like public school. it'd be really nice in the suburbs/expensive areas and really shitty in the poorer areas. Not everyone is going to get the same treatment he's promising. Also, taxes and prices would be so ridiculous. Sure Canada has free healthcare, but if you want a blizzard from dairy queen it's like 7 dollars. $50 for a handle of Bacardi when you can get it here for like 25-27. I went to canada in may and I was not impressed by this.

Edit: sorry for the rant. Also, this is just my opinion and not fact.

No fucking kidding it's not fact, you selfish moron. I was about to go on a rant of my own explaining why you are both of things to the utmost degree, but you're clearly too stupid for me to even waste my time. Sure, I seem like an asshole for exploding at you, but ignorant dumbasses like you are doing far worse to the world than any regular "asshole" could.

[loveisdead]

I forgot how the elections brought out the idiots.

[saysmydoctor]

This year, they even played roles such as "candidate" and "campaign manager" and "fundraising chair."

[bite2brkskn12]

No fucking kidding it's not fact, you selfish moron. I was about to go on a rant of my own explaining why you are both of things to the utmost degree, but you're clearly too stupid for me to even waste my time. Sure, I seem like an asshole for exploding at you, but ignorant dumbasses like you are doing far worse to the world than any regular "asshole" could.
I wasn't trying to be any of those 3 things you are referring to. Yeah the blizzard and Bacardi examples were really bad examples. But i don't understand how i'm being selfish or an asshole. I'm not some rich kid who has his parent's pay for him to go to college. I'm going to community college first to save money than taking out loans to pay off the rest. I work my ass off to go to college/pay for it. I wasn't trying to say that not everyone deserves an education if that's what you thought I meant. I just think that if you really wan't to go to college, than you will find a way to go. My dad got laid off and is having a really hard time finding a new job and he has a college degree. At least in America, it's really hard to find a job even with a degree. If more people go to college, it is probally going to make a 4 year degree worth even less than it is now. That is all I was saying. Sorry if it rubbed you or any one the wrong way. This is just my opinion and I'm not trying to tell anyone what is right or wrong.

[PandaBear!]

Progress towards repealing DADT? Doesn't fit.

What do you mean doesn't fit? From what i can see, he's set the ball rolling for DADT to be repealed hasn't he?

[captivewear]

What do you mean doesn't fit? From what i can see, he's set the ball rolling for DADT to be repealed hasn't he?
the house voted to suspend it indefinitely but Obama wants to do the right thing and make DADT repealed and gone forever and its a longer process. I hope he does, if an immigrant trying to get US citizenship can come and join the army why can't an open homosexual or lesbian join? If you are willing to sign your life away then you have every right to fight for this country.

[PandaBear!]

the house voted to suspend it indefinitely but Obama wants to do the right thing and make DADT repealed and gone forever and its a longer process. I hope he does, if an immigrant trying to get US citizenship can come and join the army why can't an open homosexual or lesbian join? If you are willing to sign your life away then you have every right to fight for this country.

What really annoys me is that there are some homosexuals angry with him (especially that useless gossip blogger who's name i will not type out) for not magically sorting it out right away, saying that Obama is 'ignoring them' and shit.

[Jason Tate]

My mind is free. I have only one life.
I have no idea what you are talking about.

In terms of being behind a 'veil of ignorance'...How much are you willing to avert risk for yourself? That would not be being behind the proverbial veil.

I'm not willing to my own use money (which I don't NEED, but fully enjoying using in order to live) to pay for the lives of those I have no relation to (even though they might be nice people). That would not be being behind the proverbial veil.

Which brings me to my original point... If you're saving my life then I will pay my own debts and not rely on anyone else to do it for me. That would not be being behind the proverbial veil.

If I lived somewhere where government funded healthcare made sense economically, I would be all for it, but unfortunately that place isn't America. Oh and if you wanna wiki battle then: It makes sense economically. It's reducing the deficit by 140 million. And the latest Nobel Prize winning economist agrees (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/opinion/12krugman.html): "it would make a huge difference to the less fortunate among us, even as it would do more to control costs than anything we’ve done before. This is a reasonable, responsible plan. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise."

but really, I just come to this website to talk about how much I like Fear Before and shit like that.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/International_Comparison_-_Healthcare_spending_as_%25_GDP.png /800px-International_Comparison_-_Healthcare_spending_as_%25_GDP.png Yes, just another reason we needed Healthcare reform.

[lmorris956]

And the latest Nobel Prize winning economist agrees (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/opinion/12krugman.html): "it would make a huge difference to the less fortunate among us, even as it would do more to control costs than anything we’ve done before. This is a reasonable, responsible plan. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise."

Thank you for citing a credible source. I wasn't really aware of this, and it does certainly does make a difference in my cold, cost-benefit analysis of the issue. I'm not entirely convinced yet because I would also like to know how it would affect the system overall in terms of technology, response to demand, etc. However, it is a valid point and I respect that.

[Jason Tate]

Thank you for citing a credible source. I wasn't really aware of this, and it does certainly does make a difference in my cold, cost-benefit analysis of the issue. I'm not entirely convinced yet because I would also like to know how it would affect the system overall in terms of technology, response to demand, etc. However, it is a valid point and I respect that.
Krugman has a lot to say about stuff like that (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/why-markets-cant-cure-healthcare/) as well.

There are two strongly distinctive aspects of health care. One is that you don’t know when or whether you’ll need care — but if you do, the care can be extremely expensive. The big bucks are in triple coronary bypass surgery, not routine visits to the doctor’s office; and very, very few people can afford to pay major medical costs out of pocket.

This tells you right away that health care can’t be sold like bread. It must be largely paid for by some kind of insurance. And this in turn means that someone other than the patient ends up making decisions about what to buy. Consumer choice is nonsense when it comes to health care. And you can’t just trust insurance companies either — they’re not in business for their health, or yours.

...

There are, however, no examples of successful health care based on the principles of the free market, for one simple reason: in health care, the free market just doesn’t work. And people who say that the market is the answer are flying in the face of both theory and overwhelming evidence.

[VIVALAMATT]

Well, Obama can take a trip to India that costs $190,000,000 per day. That's certainly something.

But his face is on everyone's t-shirt so he's cool.

[VIVALAMATT]

Oh, and get a Nobel Peace Prize just for getting elected. lmfao

[caveBEAR]

Well, Obama can take a trip to India that costs $190,000,000 per day. That's certainly something.

Gonna need some proof on a claim like that.

[Jason Tate]

Oh, and get a Nobel Peace Prize just for getting elected. lmfao
Factually incorrect.

[Jason Tate]

Well, Obama can take a trip to India that costs $190,000,000 per day. That's certainly something.

But his face is on everyone's t-shirt so he's cool.
http://factcheck.org/2010/11/ask-factcheck-trip-to-mumbai/

It is always costly to move a U.S. president around the world. And in this case, the president is attending a G-20 meeting and will be accompanied by several cabinet officials. But given the dubious source of this assertion, the fact that the claimed cost exceeds the cost of a war, the flat denial by the White House and the lack of any evidence to support the claim, we’ll classify this one as false.

No. Do you even try and search out the facts before posting?

[loveisdead]

I'm not even going to bother with the nobel prize thing anymore. It was done to death here (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=1367011)

[caveBEAR]

I'm not even going to bother with the nobel prize thing anymore. It was done to death here (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=1367011)

Wait, people don't nominate themselves and give themselves the Nobel Peace Prize? Hang on, hang on...the person winning the Prize doesn't even have anything to do with it? Bullshit.

:rolleyes:


I love it when common sense just breaks the fuck down. Almost 200 million a day for a trip to India, and that doesn't set off a few red flags? Jesus fucking Christ.

[Jason Tate]

Wait, people don't nominate themselves and give themselves the Nobel Peace Prize? Hang on, hang on...the person winning the Prize doesn't even have anything to do with it? Bullshit.

:rolleyes:


I love it when common sense just breaks the fuck down. Almost 200 million a day for a trip to India, and that doesn't set off a few red flags? Jesus fucking Christ.
What I love is that some basic common sense ... like:

For example, the entire U.S. war effort in Afghanistan currently costs less than that — about $5.7 billion per month, according to the Congressional Research Service (http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf), or roughly $190 million per day. How could a peaceful state visit cost more than a war?

... gets tossed out the door.

[caveBEAR]

What I love is that some basic common sense ... like:

For example, the entire U.S. war effort in Afghanistan currently costs less than that — about $5.7 billion per month, according to the Congressional Research Service (http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf), or roughly $190 million per day. How could a peaceful state visit cost more than a war?

... gets tossed out the door.

Sometimes I forget how unbelievably fucking stupid the general public is.

[Jason Tate]

Sometimes I forget how unbelievably fucking stupid the general public is.
http://media.al.com/scenesource/photo/bristol-palin-dancing-with-the-starsjpg-fbda3db72a842094_large.jpg

It's easy to be reminded.

[caveBEAR]

:lol:

[VIVALAMATT]

Gonna need some proof on a claim like that.

It's in "allegation" stage but when he returns we'll see how much it ended up costing him. It's easy for the White House to say "naww, it's not gonna cost that much," but they didn't say how much it actually will cost, so we'll wait and see.

Factually incorrect.

It was a joke, dude. Yes I do realize they don't hand out the Nobel Peace Prize simply for getting elected President.

[VIVALAMATT]

Sometimes I forget how unbelievably fucking stupid the general public is.

And CNN? And Fox News? And the media in general? They were how I found out about the trip anyhow.

[loveisdead]

And CNN? And Fox News? And the media in general? They were how I found out about the trip anyhow.

You aren't real.

[VIVALAMATT]

You aren't real.

Complete figment of your imagination. :]

[caveBEAR]

And CNN? And Fox News? And the media in general? They were how I found out about the trip anyhow.

Yes. CNN, FoxNEWS & the media in general are all fucking stupid. Apparently, so are you.

[VIVALAMATT]

I wasn't trying to be any of those 3 things you are referring to. Yeah the blizzard and Bacardi examples were really bad examples. But i don't understand how i'm being selfish or an asshole. I'm not some rich kid who has his parent's pay for him to go to college. I'm going to community college first to save money than taking out loans to pay off the rest. I work my ass off to go to college/pay for it. I wasn't trying to say that not everyone deserves an education if that's what you thought I meant. I just think that if you really wan't to go to college, than you will find a way to go. My dad got laid off and is having a really hard time finding a new job and he has a college degree. At least in America, it's really hard to find a job even with a degree. If more people go to college, it is probally going to make a 4 year degree worth even less than it is now. That is all I was saying. Sorry if it rubbed you or any one the wrong way. This is just my opinion and I'm not trying to tell anyone what is right or wrong.

I feel you, man. My dad has to work 2 jobs, 72 hours a week, and my mom works 5 days a week just to not lose our house. I had to student loan my entire 2 years at UCSB after paying for community college out of my own pocket. I was very fortunate to find a job out of college but I completely recognize how difficult it is. Yeah your Blizzard and Bacardi examples were sortof laughable, but I don't think you said anything that made you sound ignorant or like a moron. You're stating your opinion based off of your family's struggles. It's easy for someone to sit behind a computer screen and say shit like that when their own family doesn't worry at night about paying the mortgage.

[VIVALAMATT]

Yes. CNN, FoxNEWS & the media in general are all fucking stupid. Apparently, so are you.

Love how I get called stupid when no one knows a damn thing about me. So humorous. I posted the India trip allegations because it is a current headline, even though as Jason said, it's probably not accurate, and then cracked a joke about the Nobel Peace Prize which (trust me) I am not the first one to do so.

Please, someone reply to this with a detailed analysis on how exactly I am "stupid."

Get the hell off your high horse, people.

[caveBEAR]

Please, someone reply to this with a detailed analysis on how exactly I am "stupid."

OK, but to be fair, you already did;
I posted the India trip allegations because it is a current headline, even though as Jason said, it's probably not accurate

You heard a headline on CNN or FoxNEWS from an uncredited source about Obama's trip to India costing 200 million fucking dollars a day. You (apparently) believed it enough to post it. Therefore, you're fucking stupid.

[VIVALAMATT]

OK, but to be fair, you already did;


You heard a headline on CNN or FoxNEWS from an uncredited source about Obama's trip to India costing 200 million fucking dollars a day. You (apparently) believed it enough to post it. Therefore, you're fucking stupid.

Nah, dude. You're just quick to judge. I posted it because it's yet to be discredited even though it's probably not that high of an amount. When I see an exact figure of how much it'll cost, I'll drop it. But like I said, it's speculatory.

I seriously just think I ruffled your feathers and now you want to label me "stupid" when you know nothing of what I believe in (other than what's currently being said on the topic of pot over in the other thread). That's fine. Call me "stupid." I'm just calling attention to the fact that it's sortof ridiculous to jump all over me like that.

[Jason Tate]

Common sense discredits it. And the "actual" number won't be released because a lot of the money is for secret service.

[caveBEAR]

Nah, dude. You're just quick to judge. I posted it because it's yet to be discredited even though it's probably not that high of an amount. When I see an exact figure of how much it'll cost, I'll drop it. But like I said, it's speculatory.

This part of your post pretty much proves all my points, and your obliviousness to it is just fantastic. 200 million dollars a day for a TRIP TO INDIA is such an overtly ridiculous amount that if you even for a moment think it's possible you're either fucking stupid or ignorant (which is just a lighter shade of 'fucking stupid').

You're right, by the way, you did ruffle my feathers. Nothing ruffles my feathers more than fucking idiots thinking the things they say have basis in reality.

I seriously just think I ruffled your feathers and now you want to label me "stupid" when you know nothing of what I believe in (other than what's currently being said on the topic of pot over in the other thread). That's fine. Call me "stupid." I'm just calling attention to the fact that it's sortof ridiculous to jump all over me like that.

I called you 'fucking stupid' for the same reasons I'd call someone holding up a blade of grass and screaming 'look, it's purple!' fucking stupid; you're both factually incorrect, and completely oblivious to it, i.e., fucking stupid.

[caveBEAR]

Common sense discredits it. And the "actual" number won't be released because a lot of the money is for secret service.

EXACTLY WHAT TEH OBAMA COMMUNIST FASCISM BRIGADE WOULD WANT YOU TO THINK!

:rolleyes:

[mcm1610]

Don't you know, the Secret Service is just like Hitler's SS! Obama is a NAZI! Creating his own personal army... what other President has done that, huh?!

[lmorris956]

Krugman has a lot to say about stuff like that (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/why-markets-cant-cure-healthcare/) as well.

There are two strongly distinctive aspects of health care. One is that you don’t know when or whether you’ll need care — but if you do, the care can be extremely expensive. The big bucks are in triple coronary bypass surgery, not routine visits to the doctor’s office; and very, very few people can afford to pay major medical costs out of pocket.

This tells you right away that health care can’t be sold like bread. It must be largely paid for by some kind of insurance. And this in turn means that someone other than the patient ends up making decisions about what to buy. Consumer choice is nonsense when it comes to health care. And you can’t just trust insurance companies either — they’re not in business for their health, or yours.

...

There are, however, no examples of successful health care based on the principles of the free market, for one simple reason: in health care, the free market just doesn’t work. And people who say that the market is the answer are flying in the face of both theory and overwhelming evidence.

I'm sorry that the discussion has moved on past this, I just wanted to make a couple of final comments. First, it seems that I WAS WRONG claiming that our system was the best in technical terms. I did a quick Google search and found this: http://news.avancehealth.com/2010/06/commonwealth-fund-us-health-system_7383.html I see no reason to see why it would be biased, and it shows that even when talking strictly about quality, the U.S. system still kind of blows. I apologize that I didn't research it earlier. Like I said, I learned it in a class three years ago and never read anything like that to the contrary until now.

As for Krugman's comments, I want to word this carefully, lest I appear even worse than I already do. I'm not saying that a Nobel Prize winning economist is wrong. It's just that I can find a Nobel winning economist who supports the other side, one of the most influential economists of our time, in fact: Milton Friedman. http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/7298 You could rightfully claim that Friedman has always been seen as very biased toward capitalism, but Krugman is writing for the notoriously left New York Times, so neither is exactly the most objective source.

I'm not even saying that Friedman is right, I just wanted to show that the opinions of economists, even if they win Nobel Prizes, usually just boil down to smart opinions. As such, Krugman can't win me over entirely.

I can now definitely agree that our system does need reform, but I'm just going to have to do some more research and reflection to determine what I believe is the best way to accomplish that. I can't just accept the proposed reforms, a socialized system, or a single-payer system without looking more into them. Even in the article Jason posted, Krugman states "All of this doesn’t necessarily mean that socialized medicine, or even single-payer, is the only way to go." I'll just have to think about it some more.

[J.C.]

OK, but to be fair, you already did;


You heard a headline on CNN or FoxNEWS from an uncredited source about Obama's trip to India costing 200 million fucking dollars a day. You (apparently) believed it enough to post it. Therefore, you're fucking stupid.

He actually heard it from Michelle Bachmann on AC360 last night. Anderson asked her what spending the government needed to cut to fix our deficit and the first(and only) thing she mentions is Obama's trip to India next week.

[captivewear]

And CNN? And Fox News? And the media in general? They were how I found out about the trip anyhow.
98% of the media is conservative. The media loved Barack Obama but they all hate President Barack Obama.
Sarah Palin has been in the news more then Obama.

[oldwirehands]

Sometimes I forget how unbelievably fucking stupid the general public is.

Try having a low paying customer service job that forces you to deal with the general public. Everyday I'm there is the worst day of my life.

[caveBEAR]

Try having a low paying customer service job that forces you to deal with the general public. Everyday I'm there is the worst day of my life.

I've had plenty, and now I work at a 4 Diamond Hotel/Golf Membership Resort. I'd take the poor morons over the rich, stupid assholes any day.

[oldwirehands]

I've had plenty, and now I work at a 4 Diamond Hotel/Golf Membership Resort. I'd take the poor morons over the rich, stupid assholes any day.

I have to deal with both. I've been working as a manager at Papa John's for four years and we deliver people of all classes, because our delivery area is enormous. Some of those poor morons can be just as big of assholes as the rich ones, and the rich can be as dumb as the poor rednecks. Its a mixed bag.

[serenab1221]

What really annoys me is that there are some homosexuals angry with him (especially that useless gossip blogger who's name i will not type out) for not magically sorting it out right away, saying that Obama is 'ignoring them' and shit.


Yeah, it kind of pisses me off as well. They make the rest of the community look bad by being impatient and ignoring the facts.

I've been personally affected by the policy, as it kept me from going to West Point. While I would find it awesome for it to just go away, that's not realistic. It's a long process. Obama has brought the issue to the forefront and has kept it fresh in everybody's mind. This has been pivotal in the policy being put under review, and almost becoming a thing of the past when it was tacked onto the defense bill.

This is just another example of people wanting instant gratification. Good things come to those who wait.

[caveBEAR]

I have to deal with both. I've been working as a manager at Papa John's for four years and we deliver people of all classes, because our delivery area is enormous. Some of those poor morons can be just as big of assholes as the rich ones, and the rich can be as dumb as the poor rednecks. Its a mixed bag.

Agreed. 99% of people just suck.

[PandaBear!]

Yeah, it kind of pisses me off as well. They make the rest of the community look bad by being impatient and ignoring the facts.

I've been personally affected by the policy, as it kept me from going to West Point. While I would find it awesome for it to just go away, that's not realistic. It's a long process. Obama has brought the issue to the forefront and has kept it fresh in everybody's mind. This has been pivotal in the policy being put under review, and almost becoming a thing of the past when it was tacked onto the defense bill.

This is just another example of people wanting instant gratification. Good things come to those who wait.

True.
I may piss a lot of sensitive people off with this, but homosexuals are acting like its the most important issue in America when it really, really isn't. Well, i suppose it is for them, but there are far more pressing issues that need to be addressed...

[serenab1221]

True.
I may piss a lot of sensitive people off with this, but homosexuals are acting like its the most important issue in America when it really, really isn't. Well, i suppose it is for them, but there are far more pressing issues that need to be addressed...

I can see where you're coming from. It doesn't piss me off. I personally just think civil rights is a pretty pressing issue that should always be addressed. The only reason most people don't see it as important as other issues is because less people are affected by it than, say, the economy and unemployment and health care. This makes plenty of sense to me. I still think it should be worked on and not cast aside, but there are things that are a little higher on the priority list at the moment.

The only reason I would really press for it now is, chances are, with the new elected officials it could take a number of years or more before it is sorted. That panics me a bit.

[Frosty]

Oh wow, another Aussie who thinks they know everything about the American political system. a dime a fucking dozen

Please just STFU

Uh, quite obviously I don't know anything about your politics/health care system, so that's why I was asking??

I honestly do not care about America enough to know the answer to that question. And you are stupid enough to think Australians spend time caring about your politics, that Aussies who think they know everything about it are "a dime a dozen". I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, that no one cares!! At all. Even slightly. About American politics.

[PandaBear!]

I can see where you're coming from. It doesn't piss me off. I personally just think civil rights is a pretty pressing issue that should always be addressed. The only reason most people don't see it as important as other issues is because less people are affected by it than, say, the economy and unemployment and health care. This makes plenty of sense to me. I still think it should be worked on and not cast aside, but there are things that are a little higher on the priority list at the moment.

The only reason I would really press for it now is, chances are, with the new elected officials it could take a number of years or more before it is sorted. That panics me a bit.

That's a very mature approach, which is what's needed from EVERYONE in a situation like this. Obama made a promise and you can't bet he will try his damn hardest to keep it.

[serenab1221]

Uh, quite obviously I don't know anything about your politics/health care system, so that's why I was asking??

I honestly do not care about America enough to know the answer to that question. And you are stupid enough to think Australians spend time caring about your politics, that Aussies who think they know everything about it are "a dime a dozen". I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, that no one cares!! At all. Even slightly. About American politics.

I apologize on behalf of the arrogant American you are responding to. These are the kind of people who make us all look like shit. Believe me, we're not all so rude.

[serenab1221]

That's a very mature approach, which is what's needed from EVERYONE in a situation like this. Obama made a promise and you can't bet he will try his damn hardest to keep it.

Thank you, I appreciate that. The same goes to you. In today's political climate, people get worked up far too easily. Seeing the way people act on television and especially in forums when discussing topics regarding politics, I'm determined not to mimic that behavior. I much prefer a civil discussion in which both people exchange ideas/opinions etc. and possibly learn from each other. Nobody should have to "win"or change the others stance. We're all so quick to shut down and demean those who may have a different idea.

Granted, I have been pretty worked up myself at times in these forums, but I can see now that nothing gets solved when everyone is just angry at each other.

[saysmydoctor]

I don't understand why the gay community has to be patient. Why should they be forced to wait out the process? That's bullshit in my opinion.

[perceptrons]

I don't understand why the gay community has to be patient. Why should they be forced to wait out the process? That's bullshit in my opinion.
You act like basic rights should be guaranteed to all people.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

I don't understand why the gay community has to be patient. Why should they be forced to wait out the process? That's bullshit in my opinion.

Because mainstream America will just reject the "gay agenda" if it's being shoved down their throats.

[perceptrons]

Because mainstream America will just reject the "gay agenda" if it's being shoved down their throats.
To be fair, I don't like them down my throat either.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

To be fair, I don't like them down my throat either.

Yea, gay pride parades aren't exactly making Americans more tolerant of their lifestyles.

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Science/Images/Gay-Pride-Parade.jpg

[perceptrons]

Yea, gay pride parades aren't exactly making Americans more tolerant of their lifestyles.

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Science/Images/Gay-Pride-Parade.jpg
You missed the pun of your (unintended) pun?

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

You missed the pun of your (unintended) pun?

wow, you're right. It went over my head.

[Scrandon]

Silver nips dude is a fuckin' badass.

[apoemtothedead]

i agree, though.
college, just like owning a house, is a privlege, not a right.
I can only assume 200 years ago you would supported the saying "education is a privlege(sic), not a right."

[caveBEAR]

Silver nips dude is a fuckin' badass.

:lol:

[captivewear]

True.
I may piss a lot of sensitive people off with this, but homosexuals are acting like its the most important issue in America when it really, really isn't. Well, i suppose it is for them, but there are far more pressing issues that need to be addressed...

Who says that isn't the most important deal for them. I know if someone wouldn't give me a right that 90% of people have around you I would be pretty pissed too.
Also why not work on it? You honestly think that politicians only talk and work on one or two items no matter how good or bad the economy is. Plus if Obama spent all the time on the economy and it didn't get better (which it won't be soon no matter what we do) then he accomplishes nothing...

[Jake Denning]

Universal Healthcare will not work. Ask anyone in the military or a military dependent. The US military has universal healthcare, and it is the worst healthcare imaginable. I can't count how many times I've had to go to the hospital multiple times in my life for the same problems because of the limitations of universal healthcare (such as a requirement to give patients the lowest level of medicine, regardless of past history). It once took three trips and about a month to get the right medication for strep throat. In a different state, it took two separate trips to clear up an inner ear infection. Four trips for an ingrown toenail ( although, by the end, we payed to go outside of the military healthcare so that it would be done correctly). When I was a baby, military doctors could not figure out a simple problem with me to the point where my parents had to go to a real doctor, who immediately knew what was wrong and how to fix it.

Universal healthcare in the United States will fail. It is already piss-poor, and if that was the quality everywhere, then we will be in trouble.

Sounds dumb, but I just learned what I do to correct these on youtube; Make a small incision, drain, and use epsom salt, works flawlessly everytime.

i agree, though.
college, just like owning a house, is a privlege, not a right.

Yes and No; Regardless, although I didn't vote for him, i'm thankful for Obama's additional financial aid, although i'm still going to die with loans. I work so much harder in College than I did in High School

The fact he wants everyone to have the chance to go to college is a great thing. In the UK those days are over i think - i've luckily been able to afford to go & it costs me £3000+ a year for 3 years. Now our useless Conservative government has made it (or maybe just threatening) £7000+ a year, meaning my brother has little to no chance of going and money is 100% the reason he cannot go and its ridiculously unfair. The fact he's offering a better education to anyone & everyone is a good thing, believe me.
Universal healthcare is also not bullshit because, like an education, everyone is entitled to the best healthcare possible without factors like money preventing them. We have universal healthcare (the NHS) and Stephen Hawking says its amazing and he owes his life to it, making universal healthcare amazing :-d
Such a shame that you have the most intelligent, compassionate & fair president that you've had for years and even those who voted for him are now turning on him for changing things - which was, if i'm not mistaken, his main campaign slogan, yet its still shocking people.....




...........what? Only someone rich would say something like that. A privilege defined by what exactly, how much money you've earned? I can guarantee there are hundreds of thousands of people smart enough to go to college that are unable to afford to go, more that have to settle for a cheaper college because they cannot afford a good one. Intelligence should be the only deciding factor in the field of education, not money.

I dunno, I mean, i'm going to two years of community college and finishing up my last two years at a University.

Not a very well substantiated point. The tax burden will be quite small on most Americans. And I haven't seen any economic research that would lead anyone to believe it will have any impact on prices of every day items.

Me neither, still can't believe that was his opinion.

It's in "allegation" stage but when he returns we'll see how much it ended up costing him. It's easy for the White House to say "naww, it's not gonna cost that much," but they didn't say how much it actually will cost, so we'll wait and see.


It was a joke, dude. Yes I do realize they don't hand out the Nobel Peace Prize simply for getting elected President.

But if they DID, I definitely would've wanted to be at Bill Clinton's celebratory party.

I have to deal with both. I've been working as a manager at Papa John's for four years and we deliver people of all classes, because our delivery area is enormous. Some of those poor morons can be just as big of assholes as the rich ones, and the rich can be as dumb as the poor rednecks. Its a mixed bag.

Dude, I feel ya; I've been talking to different companies about working for them on Warped this summer, but then I remember that i'd have to be selling to kids wearing Brokencyde and Asking Alexandria t-shirts and I dunno if I can refrain from being a total dickhead. Working in the food service industry sucks, especially when you have to hold your tongue.

[serenab1221]

I don't understand why the gay community has to be patient. Why should they be forced to wait out the process? That's bullshit in my opinion.

As a gay person, I find it frustrating, but I've come to accept it. I've been waiting for four years now for the repeal of DADT, and I don't have a feeling it will go away any time soon.

Everything's a long ass waiting game in politics, it seems.

[serenab1221]

Yea, gay pride parades aren't exactly making Americans more tolerant of their lifestyles.

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Science/Images/Gay-Pride-Parade.jpg

That's a complete stereotype of gay pride parades. I mean you do find those characters there, but there's so much more to it. The media just chooses to focus on this because people find it entertaining. Not sure if your comment was serious or sarcastic, though.

And in response to your other comment, I don't feel like the "agenda" is being shoved down anybody's throat. We've been waiting and fighting for decades for equal rights. People are only just waking up to see what discrimination we deal with on a daily basis.

[serenab1221]

Who says that isn't the most important deal for them. I know if someone wouldn't give me a right that 90% of people have around you I would be pretty pissed too.
Also why not work on it? You honestly think that politicians only talk and work on one or two items no matter how good or bad the economy is. Plus if Obama spent all the time on the economy and it didn't get better (which it won't be soon no matter what we do) then he accomplishes nothing...

I see your point here. I guess after being told repeatedly that there are bigger issues, I've just come to accept it. I know there is always a drive and the administration has put a lot of work into equal rights, so I know they have the gays and I in mind. With the political divide these days, though, it's nearly impossible to pass any piece of legislation. With all the new conservative Republicans in office, I expect I will be waiting a lot longer than I had originally planned.

[JamesBond]

He was the first kinda black, kinda not all white President. I think that means something

[PandaBear!]

Who says that isn't the most important deal for them. I know if someone wouldn't give me a right that 90% of people have around you I would be pretty pissed too.
Also why not work on it? You honestly think that politicians only talk and work on one or two items no matter how good or bad the economy is. Plus if Obama spent all the time on the economy and it didn't get better (which it won't be soon no matter what we do) then he accomplishes nothing...

1. I acknowledge that it may be the most important to them when i said "well, i suppose it is for them"
2. They are working on it?
3. No, i do not think that at all
4a. Stupid thing to say
4b. If he spends time on homosexual issues that around 50% of YOUR country don't want and will block every time, is he accomplishing nothing then?

[Frosty]

I apologize on behalf of the arrogant American you are responding to. These are the kind of people who make us all look like shit. Believe me, we're not all so rude.

Thankyou :-) It is people like him that give you guys a bad name. But I know you are not all like that, I would love to visit America some day.

[serenab1221]

Thankyou :-) It is people like him that give you guys a bad name. But I know you are not all like that, I would love to visit America some day.

I'd love to go to Australia! My sister got to go as a volunteer. She loved it.

Only downside: the flight is far too long. Longest I've flown is 7 hours to England.

[perceptrons]

He was the first kinda black, kinda not all white President. I think that means something
I hate when people say shit like this.

[Jason Tate]

He actually heard it from Michelle Bachmann on AC360 last night. Anderson asked her what spending the government needed to cut to fix our deficit and the first(and only) thing she mentions is Obama's trip to India next week.
http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2010/11/04/ac.obamas.india.trip.cost2.mov.cnn

This is just ridiculous. Seriously. I get so angry at this shit.

[JamesBond]

I hate when people say shit like this.
umm sorry, bro

[VIVALAMATT]

Dead serious question because I'm wondering what you guys think: how much per day is inappropriate for something like this? I wondered this while watching Anderson Cooper last night. What figure do you think you personally draw the line at?

[Jason Tate]

I don't care. The absolute last thing that will ever bother me is how much it costs for a President to travel.

[VIVALAMATT]

But say hypothetically it was an outrageous number. You wouldn't be bothered by that knowing where that money is coming from and considering today's economy?

[VIVALAMATT]

I'm just wondering, not trying to get at a point or anything. I have no problem with Obama travelling. Obviously this is going to be great for India. Mumbai is pretty stoked right now.

[Jason Tate]

No. I'm more bothered by any dime of mine that goes toward any device that could kill another human being. If we wanna stop using taxpayers' money to support about 400 things I don't want my money to go toward, then maybe 401 will be the President's travel expenses. I don't give a fuck about travel expenses or paying secret service to guard the President.

[crackedthesky]

Yeah, I think the (is it 900 billion?) we spend every year on building fighter planes should go long before diplomatic trips. What the fuck do we need fighter planes for? We're fighting wars in two countries, and in both of them our enemies consist primarily of guys in caves.

[caveBEAR]

Yeah, I think the (is it 900 billion?) we spend every year on building fighter planes should go long before diplomatic trips. What the fuck do we need fighter planes for? We're fighting wars in two countries, and in both of them our enemies consist primarily of guys in caves.

We still don't trust Germany.

[mcm1610]

If you turn your back on them even for one second, they swing right down through Belgium like THAT!

[girthman]

well...a hell of a lot more than bush (not that that's saying anything)

[jawstheme]

He definitely didn't bring the change he promised. I don't want to hear a not enough time excuse, to continue bailing out rich people is just bullshit.

[Jason Tate]

Bailing out rich people? What?

[loveisdead]

Bailing out rich people? What?

What's your problem with that argument?

[Jason Tate]

What's your problem with that argument?
Well, for one: I don't even know what it means. Bailing out companies (that virtually every economist said was absolutely vital to the continuance of our economy)? Extending tax-cuts (that we speculate is probably the best idea right now)?

Not exactly sure how Obama has "bailed out rich people" in anyway that I'd consider "bullshit."

[loveisdead]

Well, for one: I don't even know what it means. Bailing out companies (that virtually every economist said was absolutely vital to the continuance of our economy)? Extending tax-cuts (that we speculate is probably the best idea right now)?

Not exactly sure how Obama has "bailed out rich people" in anyway that I'd consider "bullshit."

His wording sucked. The rich got richer under obama. I think that was his point.

[Jason Tate]

His wording sucked. The rich got richer under obama. I think that was his point.
The rich will get richer under virtually any President. At the simplest level compounding interest will ensure that.

[paper halo]

We still don't trust Germany.

Change that to Russia, and you'd hit the nail on the head.

[caveBEAR]

Change that to Russia, and you'd hit the nail on the head.

Ha ha! I was just trying to be my usual dickish self, but that is quite right.

[Scrandon]

He definitely didn't bring the change he promised. I don't want to hear a not enough time excuse, to continue bailing out rich people is just bullshit.
Should they have let the banks fail? Or just done the bailout with more restrictions?

Also, the bailout was already in progress before Obama took office so...

[Scrandon]

His wording sucked. The rich got richer under obama. I think that was his point.
How can you even say that? Is there data?

[loveisdead]

How can you even say that? Is there data?

yes (http://www.americablog.com/2010/09/robert-reich-on-super-rich-getting.html)