Reform of the School System itself

[LostAllways]

zDZFcDGpL4U&feature=player_embedded#!

Video is a must watch. I agree completely, but how the fuck are we to implement a brand new view on education such as this? It would take several decades, in my opinion. Thoughts?

[saysmydoctor]

Wow, that map of the US fucking sucked.

Seriously, though, this was very fascinating. And completely accurate. Especially the drug portion. I don't think "fictitious" is the right word, but rather self-constructed. Never thought about education as a factory, very well drawn out metaphor.

[domotime2]

ummm.... WOW! i liked that

[cwhit412]

I totally agreed with every single point he made, especially being at a top 100 school nationally on the east coast, he's right.

[RushAndAPush]

Very cool.

[troubledbyinsects]

that was awesome..

[ellie117]

I very much enjoyed this video, but OP you're right. I find it very improbable (not impossible) that the education system will change. I think because China has a much more focused and intense education, that they will eventually become - and are becoming - the most powerful country. Not because of their cheap labor or whatever, but because of their schooling. I don't know much about any other country's education system, but since this guy seemed to be European I'm going to guess schooling over there is relatively similar to schooling here in the US, which most certainly must be changed. But I just don't see that happening, at all. Not that it's impossible, I just can't see it being done.

[StephenYoung]

Canada's schol system changed 100% from one year to the next a few years back. It can happen.

[kidinthebushes]

Get unions and government out.

[Scrandon]

I think we've all realized at times that being successful in school was largely centered around conformity, but this definitely illustrated the detriments of that kind of system. Good stuff.

[paper halo]

Get unions and government out.

Why do you think private schooling is the better choice, as I assume that is what you are advocating?

I'm genuinely curious to see why anyone could think this.

[deFobbed14yrs]

Brilliant, and included a lot of things that I have also thought of.
Standardized testing is such a waste. A/ they lower standards on things like the reagents exams so that inner city kids who has worse schools can pass, instead of making those optional for another degree. B/ not everyone thinks the same. I'm crap at tests, but i know the information, it just takes me longer to fully grasp a concept than others, and test environments don't flow with my kind of thinking.
Love the part about collaboration, I wish people were more open to it, but our country has been steered toward individualism and every man for himself. I love working in groups as long as everyone contributes.

[louie772]

Awesome.
Education really does need to change but it seems impossible. I think one of the main problems is how over half the teachers don't give a shit or are just downright horrible. I completely suck at math due to terrible Catholic school math teachers.

[domotime2]

i understand the video, but i'm not sure what i'm technically supposed to do.

I student teach in a 4th grade classroom, and have subbed at numerous elementary schools in northern new jersey. Am I not supposed to teach them math, history, english, and spelling/reading/science. I am all for new ways of helping kids to grow, but I don't neccesarily understand what part of my curriculum I should be curtailing (especially at the elementary level)?

[Zeran]

great video.

[dtrzcin]

What an excellent video. These are the things I am dealing with in my professional ed. program.

[deFobbed14yrs]

i understand the video, but i'm not sure what i'm technically supposed to do.

I student teach in a 4th grade classroom, and have subbed at numerous elementary schools in northern new jersey. Am I not supposed to teach them math, history, english, and spelling/reading/science. I am all for new ways of helping kids to grow, but I don't neccesarily understand what part of my curriculum I should be curtailing (especially at the elementary level)?


I don't think it's about curtailing any part, but about finding a way to integrate everything together to allow students to see how everything is connected and to see the multitude of possibilities with any question asked.

[domotime2]

I don't think it's about curtailing any part, but about finding a way to integrate everything together to allow students to see how everything is connected and to see the multitude of possibilities with any question asked.
but when you're initially teaching 6-11 year olds about the "facts" of the world first, its hard to expand to an array of possible answers. 4 x 4 = 16. There's no debate of that, and no thinking outside the box...and i personally feel that theses initial simplistic facts of the world STILL need to be taught first.

but... if you're trying to say that the curriculum needs to expand to some outside thinking lessons, then absolutely. I am all for having my students get good at whatever they want or like, and grow however they need...but I still want my kids to know how to multiply, read and spell, and know what the Declaration of Independence is.

[deFobbed14yrs]

but when you're initially teaching 6-11 year olds about the "facts" of the world first, its hard to expand to an array of possible answers. 4 x 4 = 16. There's no debate of that, and no thinking outside the box...and i personally feel that theses initial simplistic facts of the world STILL need to be taught first.

but... if you're trying to say that the curriculum needs to expand to some outside thinking lessons, then absolutely. I am all for having my students get good at whatever they want or like, and grow however they need...but I still want my kids to know how to multiply, read and spell, and know what the Declaration of Independence is.


Of course, I don't think anyone is saying they don't want that. But it's HOW we teach them these things. Instead of monotonously having them memorize facts that we tell them, we should help them find the answers themselves.
Keep creativity alive, get better parent involvement, a better focus on education as something that isn't boring but can be fun and awesome.

[caveBEAR]

but when you're initially teaching 6-11 year olds about the "facts" of the world first, its hard to expand to an array of possible answers. 4 x 4 = 16. There's no debate of that, and no thinking outside the box...and i personally feel that theses initial simplistic facts of the world STILL need to be taught first.

but... if you're trying to say that the curriculum needs to expand to some outside thinking lessons, then absolutely. I am all for having my students get good at whatever they want or like, and grow however they need...but I still want my kids to know how to multiply, read and spell, and know what the Declaration of Independence is.

Math is pretty much the worst subject to involve in this video. Math is '2+2=4', and that's the way it will be; however, that's not saying that we can't find new ways to teach our students. For instance, I have always failed miserably at math. On my own, I drown. What if, like the video suggested, I had been able to colaborate with students who understood the subject better? Maybe I would have grasped it. Who knows?

However, in classes such as English, we have standardized and marginalized the classes to the point where stories children read (which could be interpreted in a variety of different ways) now have one correct answer, and if you don't view the piece like everyone else did, you're wrong. This is fucked.

[domotime2]

Of course, I don't think anyone is saying they don't want that. But it's HOW we teach them these things. Instead of monotonously having them memorize facts that we tell them, we should help them find the answers themselves.
Keep creativity alive, get better parent involvement, a better focus on education as something that isn't boring but can be fun and awesome.
but i think some teachers all ready do that. It's hard to make math exciting and interesting, and teach it to them in a different way. Since you're a kid, your dad shows you apples and m&ms and whatever to help you learn to add.

and when it comes to bunching the kids up by grade and age...i just thought of it as a common sense way of doing it? I can't fathom a system differently than that (which makes me think a total rework of the system isn't coming anytime close)

[deFobbed14yrs]

but i think some teachers all ready do that. It's hard to make math exciting and interesting, and teach it to them in a different way. Since you're a kid, your dad shows you apples and m&ms and whatever to help you learn to add.

and when it comes to bunching the kids up by grade and age...i just thought of it as a common sense way of doing it? I can't fathom a system differently than that (which makes me think a total rework of the system isn't coming anytime close)


That's this country's problem, we can't think beyond what we have.
And i feel we need to have a complete rework of schools, not something nationally, it's too big of a feat. Something small though, to be used as a test subject to try out a new system.

It's fine to teach basic skills one way, but we need to keep creativity alive.

[caveBEAR]

but i think some teachers all ready do that. It's hard to make math exciting and interesting, and teach it to them in a different way. Since you're a kid, your dad shows you apples and m&ms and whatever to help you learn to add.

and when it comes to bunching the kids up by grade and age...i just thought of it as a common sense way of doing it? I can't fathom a system differently than that (which makes me think a total rework of the system isn't coming anytime close)

Aaaand, there's the problem right there. Start fathoming something different, nothing's impossible.

[Scrandon]

and when it comes to bunching the kids up by grade and age...i just thought of it as a common sense way of doing it? I can't fathom a system differently than that (which makes me think a total rework of the system isn't coming anytime close)
I thought this was the most interesting point raised. I don't know if grouping students by strengths would be better or not. It's definitely worth the thought and a little experimentation.

[deFobbed14yrs]

I thought this was the most interesting point raised. I don't know if grouping students by strengths would be better or not. It's definitely worth the thought and a little experimentation.


I feel it's worth a try.

[domotime2]

Math is pretty much the worst subject to involve in this video. Math is '2+2=4', and that's the way it will be; however, that's not saying that we can't find new ways to teach our students. For instance, I have always failed miserably at math. On my own, I drown. What if, like the video suggested, I had been able to colaborate with students who understood the subject better? Maybe I would have grasped it. Who knows?

However, in classes such as English, we have standardized and marginalized the classes to the point where stories children read (which could be interpreted in a variety of different ways) now have one correct answer, and if you don't view the piece like everyone else did, you're wrong. This is fucked.
you can colaborate with students as much as you want. I can't tell you how much "work with your partner on this worksheet" time we give my kids. Especially in an elementary school environment (i'm purely talking about it from that perspective). And it's not as if the teacher just stands in the front of the class and is like "this is how you multiply"... "okay you got it?..okay test time". Most teachers systematically teach slowly and use MANY MANY different techniques in getting the point across.

The first like 50 pages of our text book are DIFFERENT ways of learning how to add. Just adding. Different techniques, different methods...trying to find what a student gets more. So I don't know what else you could do for the subject? And if you want to work with friends and colaborate you can. there is TONS of time a teacher allows partner time. But you may forget that haha a lot of times "partner" work turns into " lets talk about transformers".

[domotime2]

That's this country's problem, we can't think beyond what we have.
And i feel we need to have a complete rework of schools, not something nationally, it's too big of a feat. Something small though, to be used as a test subject to try out a new system.

It's fine to teach basic skills one way, but we need to keep creativity alive.
well yeah. I feel that the latest massive cuts of art and music all around is awful. I completely 100% agree on that.

[domotime2]

Aaaand, there's the problem right there. Start fathoming something different, nothing's impossible.
but you have to give me a way first. It's like picturing what's outside the universe, i can't think of it. I cant think of a method differently than having kids grow together educationally. Most curriculum until you're 14 is based on growth. What you learn when you're 6, is stuff you'll apply when your 7. And if you need some more time to gather a certain subject, you stay behind and keep trying. Kids do that all the time.

[domotime2]

I thought this was the most interesting point raised. I don't know if grouping students by strengths would be better or not. It's definitely worth the thought and a little experimentation.
don't we do that. don't we have "higher math classes" and "lower math classes".

[Scrandon]

don't we do that. don't we have "higher math classes" and "lower math classes".
Well, I didn't experience anything like that until 8th grade, and even then, it was just for math. Even in high school, there's a pretty rigid schedule you have to follow if you want to get into college.

By college, you seem to have much more freedom, but as this presentation pointed out, it might be to late by then.

[domotime2]

Well, I didn't experience anything like that until 8th grade, and even then, it was just for math. Even in high school, there's a pretty rigid schedule you have to follow if you want to get into college.

By college, you seem to have much more freedom, but as this presentation pointed out, it might be to late by then.
really? in our district, since about 4th grade...we've seperated our classes for Math and for Science. AND! if a certain student is struggling, they have extra help and special education courses throughout the day as well.

[The Personist]

Subscribing, will watch video later.

[deFobbed14yrs]

really? in our district, since about 4th grade...we've seperated our classes for Math and for Science. AND! if a certain student is struggling, they have extra help and special education courses throughout the day as well.

Interesting. We weren't split til about the 8th grade as well.

But then again, those who were on the lower track were kind of seen as not as smart as were still taught like how the higher track classes were taught, just with less subjects. That needs to change.

[caveBEAR]

you can colaborate with students as much as you want. I can't tell you how much "work with your partner on this worksheet" time we give my kids. Especially in an elementary school environment (i'm purely talking about it from that perspective). And it's not as if the teacher just stands in the front of the class and is like "this is how you multiply"... "okay you got it?..okay test time". Most teachers systematically teach slowly and use MANY MANY different techniques in getting the point across.

The first like 50 pages of our text book are DIFFERENT ways of learning how to add. Just adding. Different techniques, different methods...trying to find what a student gets more. So I don't know what else you could do for the subject? And if you want to work with friends and colaborate you can. there is TONS of time a teacher allows partner time. But you may forget that haha a lot of times "partner" work turns into " lets talk about transformers".

Well, it appears you're in a school system that's at least trying; I can tell you from experience in the school system I and my mother have worked in that this isn't the case everywhere. In Florida it's all standardized testing and marginalization, and the 'outside the box thinkers' and slower learners are the ones suffering for it. As well, way too many teachers 'teach to the test', and this is only going to get worse if Florida (and other states) institute preformance pay for teachers, where teachers are paid based off their students standardized test scores.

At least in my district, the allusion to a mindless factory is spot-on.

[Manicapathy]

Kindergarten teacher at my school (as well as several parents) suggested to my folks that they put me on drugs for adhd....which they never did (thank god).

How the fuck do you know if the kid needs that shit when they are 4?

[caveBEAR]

Kindergarten teacher at my school (as well as several parents) suggested to my folks that they put me on drugs for adhd....which they never did (thank god).

How the fuck do you know if the kid needs that shit when they are 4?

Easy, by matching up the symptoms of ADHD with the normal behavioral patterns of a 4 year old.

[Manicapathy]

Easy, by matching up the symptoms of ADHD with the normal behavioral patterns of a 4 year old.

http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/guide/adhd-symptoms

Maybe it's just me, but that fits the description of most kids at that age. Meh.

[atticus18244fss]

This was really rad.

[UnderMyDreams]

http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/guide/adhd-symptoms

Maybe it's just me, but that fits the description of most kids at that age. Meh.

I mean, your parents can't just put you on medication for ADHD. You would have had to go to a doctor and they would evaluate you and what not. The behavior patterns of a 4 year old with ADHD would be different than one without.

[caveBEAR]

http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/guide/adhd-symptoms

Maybe it's just me, but that fits the description of most kids at that age. Meh.

Ha ha, yeah, that was my point. :-d

My mom has taught the 'special ed' class for almost 20 years, so I've seen kids with ADHD. I've also worked in extended day for many years, so I've seen my share of undisiplined little shits.

There's no way anyone who knows what ADHD really is could confuse the two. Kids with ADHD genuinely cannot sit down and pay attention. Undisiplined little shits just need disipline.

[caveBEAR]

I mean, your parents can't just put you on medication for ADHD. You would have had to go to a doctor and they would evaluate you and what not. The behavior patterns of a 4 year old with ADHD would be different than one without.

It's not difficult at all to get a doctor to agree with the parents that their child has ADHD, and there are some guidance councelors who push for it as well.

[x togepi x]

Get unions and government out.

Getting rid of unions would be possibly the dumbest thing you could do. It's a lot more complicated than it seems. Getting rid of unions= basically every rural school in the midwest teaching the bible and every worthwhile book being banned from the library.

[caveBEAR]

Getting rid of unions would be possibly the dumbest thing you could do. It's a lot more complicated than it seems. Getting rid of unions= basically every rural school in the midwest teaching the bible and every worthwhile book being banned from the library.

Exactly. As well, unions are the reason teachers get paid the rate they do now, which is still (IMO) criminally low.

[kidinthebushes]

What does the Bible have to do with unions? Its a separation of church and state.

My girlfriend teaches at a rural school in Illinois and she decides her own curriculum.

[RushAndAPush]

Ha ha, yeah, that was my point. :-d

My mom has taught the 'special ed' class for almost 20 years, so I've seen kids with ADHD. I've also worked in extended day for many years, so I've seen my share of undisiplined little shits.

There's no way anyone who knows what ADHD really is could confuse the two. Kids with ADHD genuinely cannot sit down and pay attention. Undisiplined little shits just need disipline.I believe this to be another area that is in desperate need of reforming.

[caveBEAR]

I believe this to be another area that is in desperate need of reforming.

Agreed. Almost every year my mother would have close to 30 kids, and there'd be at least 10 different disabilities and needs she had to overcome with the kids. They just stick all the 'special' kids in one class. (Keep in mind, this isn't the 'life-skills' class with the genuinely mentally handicapped kids, this is the mild-extreme learning disability class.)

[aoftbsten]

Good video, interesting for sure.

[apoemtothedead]

Interesting video, however I feel there are more pressing matters to the education system like the redistribution of funds.

[the sky below]

good luck stopping the pharmaceutical industry from needlessly medicating kids.

great video though. worth emailing to local politicians and school trustees, i think.

[dannylololol]

This video was great, I want to be a teacher and this inspired me even more

[The Personist]

OK, that was amazing. I agree completely with him, and I think the reason people are having trouble seeing ways to implement this is, as has been said, part of the original problem itself.

[dru]

loved this video. guy's very smart.

[EasySkankin]

Interesting video, however I feel there are more pressing matters to the education system like the redistribution of funds.
This. I think a good part of changing how we do education is getting kids to actually apply things they learn as opposed to vigorously testing them, which would involve lots of out-of-classroom projects, field trips, and arts (plays, concerts, etc.). But we can't get to that point until we create a financially stable public school system. It's ridiculous how much money my state owes our schools.

[troubledbyinsects]

I watched the video again and I definitely think this is something that could be implemented over a period of time. I've had a few teachers who teach in very different ways other than the "traditional" way and I've always excelled in their classes, as has everyone else. Not because their class is easy, but because they know how to fucking teach, just like this guy is talking about. But I've also had teachers who straight up suck and just tell you facts and don't engage you, don't encourage collaboration, and don't even attempt to make anything interesting ever. That definitely needs to change and I think it can. The problem would be getting most of these self righteous dicks on board with a new education style.

[deFobbed14yrs]

good luck stopping the pharmaceutical industry from needlessly medicating kids.

great video though. worth emailing to local politicians and school trustees, i think.

Is it really the pharmaceutical companies or parents who don't know how to parent and just want their kid to calm the fuck down so they drug them instead of letting them be kids, or parents having to work too much to spend adequate time with their kids? It's way more complicated than the pharmaceutical companies, and lackadaisical parents as well.

[Scrandon]

Is it really the pharmaceutical companies or parents who don't know how to parent and just want their kid to calm the fuck down so they drug them instead of letting them be kids, or parents having to work too much to spend adequate time with their kids? It's way more complicated than the pharmaceutical companies, and lackadaisical parents as well.
These parents have been told by authority figures that their children have a disorder. A disorder that can be treated with medication. It's not some over-the-counter option, it must be prescribed. Parents have less to do with the process than the medical community does.

[deFobbed14yrs]

These parents have been told by authority figures that their children have a disorder. A disorder that can be treated with medication. It's not some over-the-counter option, it must be prescribed. Parents have less to do with the process than the medical community does.

And parents have 100%authority to ignore what that doctor said and not fill the script and get a second or third opinion. This isn't the 1950's where whatever the doctor says is true and you follow his advice blindly. Parents know their children, or should know their children, and should understand that a kid at age 4 is supposed to be hyper and excited and a kid.

[Scrandon]

And parents have 100%authority to ignore what that doctor said and not fill the script and get a second or third opinion. This isn't the 1950's where whatever the doctor says is true and you follow his advice blindly. Parents know their children, or should know their children, and should understand that a kid at age 4 is supposed to be hyper and excited and a kid.
If this is an "epidemic" it would follow that a significant number of doctors are diagnosers of ADHD; therefore, that second and third opinion are likely to say the same thing. If you expect parents to ignore professional medical advice in favor of "common sense", well, it seems you don't have a very strong grasp on the experience of most parents. I would suggest holding the medical community more accountable, since, you know, it's their job.

[deFobbed14yrs]

If this is an "epidemic" it would follow that a significant number of doctors are diagnosers of ADHD; therefore, that second and third opinion are likely to say the same thing. If you expect parents to ignore professional medical advice in favor of "common sense", well, it seems you don't have a very strong grasp on the experience of most parents. I would suggest holding the medical community more accountable, since, you know, it's their job.

There is no epidemic, they're just lowering standards across the nations, hence the rise in a lot of different diseases. Of course the medical community should be held accountable, but so should parents. They can choose to ignore the teachers who say their kids are hyperactive. Maybe have the kid go run outside and eat healthy food instead of leaving him in front of the tv with a bag of chips. OR teach them basic math skills instead of how to throw a baseball correctly. Parents are in charge of their children and a lot of them need to wake the fuck up. We should hold parents accountable since you know, it's their children.

[Scrandon]

There is no epidemic, they're just lowering standards across the nations, hence the rise in a lot of different diseases. Of course the medical community should be held accountable, but so should parents. They can choose to ignore the teachers who say their kids are hyperactive. Maybe have the kid go run outside and eat healthy food instead of leaving him in front of the tv with a bag of chips. OR teach them basic math skills instead of how to throw a baseball correctly. Parents are in charge of their children and a lot of them need to wake the fuck up. We should hold parents accountable since you know, it's their children.
You continue to argue that the parents should know more than the doctors. It's not realistic.

You have teachers who teach a class full of students and single out your child as hyperactive. You take your child to the doctor, and he is diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed medicine. Parents should ignore all of this?

[deFobbed14yrs]

You continue to argue that the parents should know more than the doctors. It's not realistic.

You have teachers who teach a class full of students and single out your child as hyperactive. You take your child to the doctor, and he is diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed medicine. Parents should ignore all of this?

It is totally realistic. How much time does the doctor really spend with the child? Twenty minutes? And who says teachers are in any position to say your child has is hyperactive? Maybe the child is bored in class because it's not stimulating enough. Kids learn in different ways.
As a parent, you should know if your child is merely being a child or has something a bit more serious going on. But unless the kid is running around 24/7 screaming at the top of his lungs, I don't think medication like adderal (which is just legal cocaine) should be given.

[The Personist]

Adderall and like medicines are not cocaine. They are amphetamines.

When I was 4 years old, right after my little brother was born, I was put in a Montessori school for daycare. My mom went to the parent night thing and the person in charge (principal? idk) took her aside and said if I continued to act the way I did, I would end up in jail.This, of course, broke her heart, so my parents took me to a child psychologist, who observed the school where I was and determined they just didn't know how to deal with children. They expected 3 and 4 year olds to sit still in a circle quietly for 45min to an hour at a time for storytime or whatever. That's ridiculous.

But I wasn't just energetic and bad at following rules. I was unable to concentrate on simple tasks; at age 4 I had never buttoned my own shirt. Every time I tried I would get too frustrated and just give up because i couldn't do it. My parents reluctantly decided to try out the medication (Ritalin, at the time) just to see if it helped, and because they themselves were skeptical about the diagnosis. Within a half hour, my dad says, he knew it was the right thing to do. They put a shirt on me and told me to button it. I tried once, twice, thrice, and then finally did it, and my dad says I was more excited than he'd ever seen me before. I was able to DO something, I didn't feel like a total failure. So my being different as manifested in ADHD was a huge impact--or would have been--on my self-esteem, and probably would have weighed heavily on me, had I not been diagnosed and prescribed medication.

This is sort of unrelated, I guess, and too much personal information for everyone, but the point is that the ADHD debate wouldn't be as big a deal if we changed our model of education. Diagnoses and prescriptions would decrease if we revamped the system, because stimulation alone wouldn't constitute abnormality/illness.

[LostAllways]

It is totally realistic. How much time does the doctor really spend with the child? Twenty minutes? And who says teachers are in any position to say your child has is hyperactive? Maybe the child is bored in class because it's not stimulating enough. Kids learn in different ways.
As a parent, you should know if your child is merely being a child or has something a bit more serious going on. But unless the kid is running around 24/7 screaming at the top of his lungs, I don't think medication like adderal (which is just legal cocaine) should be given.

I cannot agree with any 4 year old being given medication for "Attention Deficit Disorder." That makes no fucking sense. It makes sense for a 12 year old, but a fucking 4 year old? Maybe the kid's just immature for his age, which is saying a lot, and he'll grow out of it or something. Putting a kid on amphetamines at that young an age is just setting them up for failure for the rest of their lives. Instead of taking the easy way out and giving them drugs, how about we actually deal with the problem?

[The Personist]

Adderall and like medicines are not cocaine. They are amphetamines.

When I was 4 years old, right after my little brother was born, I was put in a Montessori school for daycare. My mom went to the parent night thing and the person in charge (principal? idk) took her aside and said if I continued to act the way I did, I would end up in jail.This, of course, broke her heart, so my parents took me to a child psychologist, who observed the school where I was and determined they just didn't know how to deal with children. They expected 3 and 4 year olds to sit still in a circle quietly for 45min to an hour at a time for storytime or whatever. That's ridiculous.

But I wasn't just energetic and bad at following rules. I was unable to concentrate on simple tasks; at age 4 I had never buttoned my own shirt. Every time I tried I would get too frustrated and just give up because i couldn't do it. My parents reluctantly decided to try out the medication (Ritalin, at the time) just to see if it helped, and because they themselves were skeptical about the diagnosis. Within a half hour, my dad says, he knew it was the right thing to do. They put a shirt on me and told me to button it. I tried once, twice, thrice, and then finally did it, and my dad says I was more excited than he'd ever seen me before. I was able to DO something, I didn't feel like a total failure. So my being different as manifested in ADHD was a huge impact--or would have been--on my self-esteem, and probably would have weighed heavily on me, had I not been diagnosed and prescribed medication.

This is sort of unrelated, I guess, and too much personal information for everyone, but the point is that the ADHD debate wouldn't be as big a deal if we changed our model of education. Diagnoses and prescriptions would decrease if we revamped the system, because stimulation alone wouldn't constitute abnormality/illness.

I cannot agree with any 4 year old being given medication for "Attention Deficit Disorder." That makes no fucking sense. It makes sense for a 12 year old, but a fucking 4 year old? Maybe the kid's just immature for his age, which is saying a lot, and he'll grow out of it or something. Putting a kid on amphetamines at that young an age is just setting them up for failure for the rest of their lives. Instead of taking the easy way out and giving them drugs, how about we actually deal with the problem?

Did you read my post? Quoted for your convenience.

[LostAllways]

Did you read my post? Quoted for your convenience.

That's an example of a successful diagnosis, amongst the countless examples of failures I can give. I have three close friends 'diagnosed' with ADD at a young age -- around 5 years old. I've known them for a long time, at least seven years each, and we're 17 now. All three of them happen to be the three dumbest people I know. Not to be mean, and it's not that they just aren't good at school; I don't judge my friends based on their grades, I judge them based on logic, reasoning, and common sense, though their grades are also utterly terrible. They are all still today on the medication, because without it they just don't feel right or something, and I can tell when they're not on it -- they are a lot more random and talk about anything that comes to their mind, as if they're drunk or high or something. I know these guys could've easily been normal if they were never diagnosed with ADD, but they were, so what now? They stay on the drug for the rest of their lives, increasing dosage as their brains deteriorate.

[The Personist]

That's an example of a successful diagnosis, amongst the countless examples of failures I can give. I have three close friends 'diagnosed' with ADD at a young age -- around 5 years old. I've known them for a long time, at least seven years each, and we're 17 now. All three of them happen to be the three dumbest people I know. Not to be mean, and it's not that they just aren't good at school; I don't judge my friends based on their grades, I judge them based on logic, reasoning, and common sense, though their grades are also utterly terrible. They are all still today on the medication, because without it they just don't feel right or something, and I can tell when they're not on it -- they are a lot more random and talk about anything that comes to their mind. I know these guys could've easily been normal if they were never diagnosed with ADD, but they were, so what now? They stay on the drug for the rest of their lives, increasing dosage as their brains deteriorate.

I can attest to the fact that being without the medication is strange, because it helps correct a chemical imbalance. Of course being on it and being not on it feel different.

As for the whole "they could be normal" nonsense, who cares? What does "normal" mean, and why should we want to be "normal"? Logic, reasoning, and common sense are all logocentric, assumptions you aren't questioning in making judgments about your friends' worth in society. I don't know how you can call them your "friends" if you're really just sad they aren't like you and therefore not as valuable as people.

[caveBEAR]

We need to stop bitching about who's fault it is that kids are on medication and instead revise the way we judge if the medication is working/needed.

Jesus Christ, why does everything need a fucking scapegoat?

[Kyle Garchar]

Get unions and government out.Unions, yes. Government, absolutely not. The disparity of wealth in our country is so fucking ridiculous right now, you'd be dense to ever think our country would succeed without a free public schooling system for everyone.

Awesome.
Education really does need to change but it seems impossible. I think one of the main problems is how over half the teachers don't give a shit or are just downright horrible. I completely suck at math due to terrible Catholic school math teachers.If more people knew why teachers didn't care, they'd be much more likely to change the system. The problem is the teachers unions. Unions are there to keep teachers with secure jobs and good benefits, but it's ultimately resulting in a system where teachers are paid about the same across the board (which is ridiculously too low) and they're not held to very rigorous standards. Here's a fun fact -- when you take a look at doctors in the US, 1 in 57 will lose their license every year due to poor performance and 1 in 97 lawyers will lose their law license. Take a look at teachers in the US -- it's an astounding 1 in 2,500 that will lose their job. This is completely due to the Unions, making it stupidly easy to get tenured in their district. When the unions started, who do you think fit the demographic for a teacher? A married woman. Do you think a woman who likely had a husband making the big bucks needed to survive off of their own salary? Absolutely not. This is why teachers are still paid so low, and the teachers unions are to blame. I really think that education reform is one of the most important things our country can do right now, especially in this economy. We need to find an alternative education method that holds teachers accountable, while paying them a substantial amount more. If teachers made 6 figure salaries and were paid based on merit, could you imagine the influx in amazing teachers we'd have throughout the united states?

That's this country's problem, we can't think beyond what we have.
And i feel we need to have a complete rework of schools, not something nationally, it's too big of a feat. Something small though, to be used as a test subject to try out a new system.Our country started this test subject in the 1970s -- charter schools. thirty years later, we have undeniable empirical data suggesting that these schools breed wildly intelligent individuals from poor areas. If this doesn't speak volumes about how our tradition education system is failing -- I'm not sure what else you need.

Getting rid of unions would be possibly the dumbest thing you could do. It's a lot more complicated than it seems. Getting rid of unions= basically every rural school in the midwest teaching the bible and every worthwhile book being banned from the library.
Exactly. As well, unions are the reason teachers get paid the rate they do now, which is still (IMO) criminally low.
This is absolutely the furthest thing from the truth. The teachers unions are playing a HUGE part in keeping teachers pay extremely low. It's also VERY unlikely that you'd have the outcome of teaching religion in the classroom. Teachers unions are fucking up our education system so badly right now. Any good idea that is even remotely risky is denied in a heartbeat by unions.

Everyone in this thread needs to go see Waiting for Superman -- You can not argue with empirical data the documentary presents.

What I'm suggesting is the alternative methods that are deployed throughout charter schools need to be evaluated and many should be strongly considered when our country goes through the much needed education reform. I'm not saying every single thing they're doing is right, but when you see that almost every one of these charter schools has a higher graduation rate than their public school counterpart, you need to look at what they're doing and there needs to be WAY more discussion than there currently is on the topic.

[caveBEAR]

Our country started this test subject in the 1970s -- charter schools. thirty years later, we have undeniable empirical data suggesting that these schools breed wildly intelligent individuals from poor areas. If this doesn't speak volumes about how our tradition education system is failing -- I'm not sure what else you need.

Charter schools are not the end all answer. In my county, a bunch of teachers and adminstrators who can barely tie their own shoes let alone inspire students are now at a charter school.

[Scrandon]

The charter school in my area received too many applicants when it first opened, so they assigned a lottery and those who won got in. Years later, the students who got in had largely simiilar test scores as those who applied but didn't get in. This suggests that the school itself is not improving tests scores, but that those who apply to begin with are more motivated / determined to do well in school.

The charter school did have higher rates of students going to college, so it appeared that being in that environment / having the expectation of going to college actually helped.

Basically, there aren't crazy amounts of empirical data proving the superiority of charter schools.

[caveBEAR]

Does anyone have any good links on unions and their interaction/involvement with schools? Obviously what I believed may not be the case.

[Kyle Garchar]

Just look into the entire situation with Michelle Rhee and the DC school system.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/not-your-average-read/2010/oct/17/michelle-rhee-vs-teachers-union-pawlenty-fenty/

[caveBEAR]

Just look into the entire situation with Michelle Rhee and the DC school system.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/not-your-average-read/2010/oct/17/michelle-rhee-vs-teachers-union-pawlenty-fenty/

But Rhee did call (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcschools/2010/09/rhee_election_result_devastati.html ) the election results “devastating for the schoolchildren of Washington, D.C.” and quickly launched a website (http://www.michellerhee.org/), Twitter account (http://twitter.com/m_rhee) and Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Michelle-A-Rhee/146156858762347) to connect with everyone in the country who might have ideas for education reform.

Perhaps like Sarah Palin, Michelle Rhee will be another strong, no-nonsense woman who accomplishes more outside the office than she ever could within it.

Yeah, good article until that bullshit. I see what she's saying, and I agree, but I don't think we should do without unions. Someone needs to be there to watch out for the teachers; therefore, a reform of the unions would probably be best. Reform all around would be best.

[Kyle Garchar]

Yeah, good article until that bullshit. I see what she's saying, and I agree, but I don't think we should do without unions. Someone needs to be there to watch out for the teachers; therefore, a reform of the unions would probably be best. Reform all around would be best.I think that an all around education reform would need to include protection for teachers without the need for unions. Imagine if we were to set up an education system that guaranteed teachers six figure salaries and many of the benefits Unions fought for, you'd start to see institutions willing to provide for their teachers instead of cutting funding constantly. Think about if we were to reduce the military budget to that of a normal first world nation, and start putting money into education. We're currently living in a system where the disparity of wealth directly relates to education -- resulting in the same poor families going nowhere, generation after generation. We've got millions of kids going to school every day until they're old enough to drop out or just barely graduate because they're getting shit in terms of a quality education. These people aren't smart enough, nor do they have anywhere close to the resources necessary to move out of the areas they live in order to get a better education for their children. When you focus on developing these areas, this is when you see the massive change our nation needs. Our teachers need to be paid 2-3x what they're being paid now, and we need to pour huge amounts of money into our public schools. Unfortunately most of those that have the wealth in this country are able to manipulate those who don't, in order to benefit the rich. It's a fucked up system that is going to take a lot to change, and it's not going to be quick. Another huge problem is the people who are intelligent enough to make these decisions, are not in any position to make the decisions because our political system bars any type of real, human decisions; Or because most people are too intelligent to get into something as stupid as politics.

[caveBEAR]

I think that an all around education reform would need to include protection for teachers without the need for unions. Imagine if we were to set up an education system that guaranteed teachers six figure salaries and many of the benefits Unions fought for, you'd start to see institutions willing to provide for their teachers instead of cutting funding constantly. Think about if we were to reduce the military budget to that of a normal first world nation, and start putting money into education. We're currently living in a system where the disparity of wealth directly relates to education -- resulting in the same poor families going nowhere, generation after generation. We've got millions of kids going to school every day until they're old enough to drop out or just barely graduate because they're getting shit in terms of a quality education. These people aren't smart enough, nor do they have anywhere close to the resources necessary to move out of the areas they live in order to get a better education for their children. When you focus on developing these areas, this is when you see the massive change our nation needs. Our teachers need to be paid 2-3x what they're being paid now, and we need to pour huge amounts of money into our public schools. Unfortunately most of those that have the wealth in this country are able to manipulate those who don't, in order to benefit the rich. It's a fucked up system that is going to take a lot to change, and it's not going to be quick. Another huge problem is the people who are intelligent enough to make these decisions, are not in any position to make the decisions because our political system bars any type of real, human decisions; Or because most people are too intelligent to get into something as stupid as politics.

Backed 100%.

It's a shame it's become a political issue, because there's no 'sides' to education.

[GuitarR0cker1]

Charter schools are not the end all answer. In my county, a bunch of teachers and adminstrators who can barely tie their own shoes let alone inspire students are now at a charter school.
Right on.

Charter schools are not synonyms for success stories. I went to one for four years and while it was rigorous and suited to kids who cared about schoolwork, their system of teaching was absurd. The only reason why students there performed better than students at other schools had to do with the fact that the kids who went there were already "advanced". There was no oversight of the teachers' methods and teachers would teach at length and in detail on subjects that were of little importance to high schoolers. Ancient literature is great but it isn't for freshmen in high school.

Charter schools give teachers and administrators too much freedom. Sometimes this is great, sometimes it leads to tremendous, unpopular fuck ups.

[Kyle Garchar]

Backed 100%.

It's a shame it's become a political issue, because there's no 'sides' to education.Oh, there are sides. It's the elderly conservative assholes who don't feel like putting any money into education because they don't have any kids in school.

[GuitarR0cker1]

Backed 100%.

It's a shame it's become a political issue, because there's no 'sides' to education.
Part of the problem is that we elect officials that shouldn't be elected with regards to education.

Then there are fuckwits who think we should teach kids propaganda so they don't become EVUL COMMIEZ!

[caveBEAR]

Part of the problem is that we elect officials that shouldn't be elected

Fixed.
;-)

[Kyle Garchar]

Right on.

Charter schools are not synonyms for success stories. I went to one for four years and while it was rigorous and suited to kids who cared about schoolwork, their system of teaching was absurd. The only reason why students there performed better than students at other schools had to do with the fact that the kids who went there were already "advanced". There was no oversight of the teachers' methods and teachers would teach at length and in detail on subjects that were of little importance to high schoolers. Ancient literature is great but it isn't for freshmen in high school.

Charter schools give teachers and administrators too much freedom. Sometimes this is great, sometimes it leads to tremendous, unpopular fuck ups.I'm not saying every one is a success story, and you're right. Some charter schools aren't always successful because of their alternative teaching methods. What I'm suggesting is that we look at the successful techniques implemented on a widespread level and adopt them into our current teaching strategy. The issues at hand is paying our teachers based on merit, not by how long they've been a teacher. Think about this...why should a elementary/middle school/high school teacher earn tenure after 3-5 years and often as little as 2 years? Their pay isn't going to be extremely high at this point, and it's unlikely they're going to be adopting alternative teaching styles that the school would deem controversial. Tenure in post secondary schools is a given, but it's proven to cause problems in high schools and middle schools ESPECIALLY in poor areas.

[saysmydoctor]

You should all read Diane Radvitch.

[oldwirehands]

I didn't know this thread was around before I made one.

What I think would be something nice to try, is to improve music and art programs in earlier schooling (grades k-5). With research like this (http://www.livescience.com/health/091106-isns-music-brain.html), I believe that we could create room to advance the academic curriculum; through the exposure to musical training and history early in a child's life, their memory and learning abilities would improve. The only obstacle I could see right now, would be getting right-wing bible thumpers on board with allowing an advanced education of science, math, history, ect.

This topic is so very important and action needs to be taken in the very near future. The world becomes increasingly more complex by the day, and we're trying to teach our children using a system that is 100 years outdated; its a recipe for disaster! America is among the worst in the world when it comes to this. Working with the general public for the past five years has clearly shown me that the majority are uneducated and ignorant. Democracy can not be effective in a society like this.

[perceptrons]

Until science classes are forever free from "teaching the controversy" discussions, I'll have a hard time focusing on anything else.

[saysmydoctor]

ND_a8rA67VA

[open mind]

i've long held the belief that the "well rounded" education system does a disservice to the majority of kids.
we ought to be giving kids the greatest chance of success, and in my mind that means giving them the best education in the areas they are both naturally proficient at and have an interest in.
i just don't understand the mentality that kids can't specialize in what they're good at until their minds have been dulled with 12 years of standardized testing.

[Kozzy333]

Elementary school, when I went, seemed to be more about having good memorization skills than anything. I think it's a lot different now in Canada with a lot of focus on literacy.

[ImARealBoy]

I wish every lecture was animated on a white board.

[Kozzy333]

Until science classes are forever free from "teaching the controversy" discussions, I'll have a hard time focusing on anything else.

What does that mean?

[Love As Arson]

If we teach kids how to be creative, who will take out the garbage and clean skyscrapers?

[boxingwithstars]

I think that an all around education reform would need to include protection for teachers without the need for unions. Imagine if we were to set up an education system that guaranteed teachers six figure salaries and many of the benefits Unions fought for, you'd start to see institutions willing to provide for their teachers instead of cutting funding constantly. Think about if we were to reduce the military budget to that of a normal first world nation, and start putting money into education. We're currently living in a system where the disparity of wealth directly relates to education -- resulting in the same poor families going nowhere, generation after generation. We've got millions of kids going to school every day until they're old enough to drop out or just barely graduate because they're getting shit in terms of a quality education. These people aren't smart enough, nor do they have anywhere close to the resources necessary to move out of the areas they live in order to get a better education for their children. When you focus on developing these areas, this is when you see the massive change our nation needs. Our teachers need to be paid 2-3x what they're being paid now, and we need to pour huge amounts of money into our public schools. Unfortunately most of those that have the wealth in this country are able to manipulate those who don't, in order to benefit the rich. It's a fucked up system that is going to take a lot to change, and it's not going to be quick. Another huge problem is the people who are intelligent enough to make these decisions, are not in any position to make the decisions because our political system bars any type of real, human decisions; Or because most people are too intelligent to get into something as stupid as politics.

Totally agree, but as long as we're living in a capitalist society we will have a need for unions.

[caveBEAR]

What does that mean?

It means intelligent design and creationism are taught as viable alternatives/theories to be held up to evolutionary theory, which is 110% bullshit. That shit needs to be booted from school forever and fucking ever.

[Scrandon]

i've long held the belief that the "well rounded" education system does a disservice to the majority of kids.
we ought to be giving kids the greatest chance of success, and in my mind that means giving them the best education in the areas they are both naturally proficient at and have an interest in.
i just don't understand the mentality that kids can't specialize in what they're good at until their minds have been dulled with 12 years of standardized testing.
You fucking serious? I had a hard time picking a major as a high school grad, how is a kid supposed to do this in first grade?

[perceptrons]

You fucking serious? I had a hard time picking a major as a high school grad, how is a kid supposed to do this in first grade?
Yeah... I am quite certain I would not be on the path I am if I had chosen that long ago.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

I think open mind should have ap.net blocked on his web server whenever alcohol enters his system.

[perceptrons]

I think open mind should have ap.net blocked on his web server whenever alcohol enters his system.
I'm sure you could rig up a breathalyser test login procedure.

[Love As Arson]

I do think kids can be given an education at an early age that isn't meant to manufacture workers.

[open mind]

You fucking serious? I had a hard time picking a major as a high school grad, how is a kid supposed to do this in first grade?

did i suggest that kids should be picking majors in the first grade?

[DCfreak]

=\ maybe I'm wrong but it reaally feels like this thread is getting a little bit carried away. Yes, the mindset of your average public school is broken. But I just finsihed student teaching in a highschool last semester and from what I saw I really don't think we are trying to destroy creativity in the way many of you are trying to point out. Many teachers, if not the majority, are always trying to change up their lesson plans. I worked 8 weeks in a middle school and the administration requires the teachers to use at least 3 different instruction methods in each block period (80 minute class).

Overall the mindset is there and is a problem, but its not like teachers aren't trying to combat the system.


Do we need an educational rehaul? yeah it would probably help, but only small steps inside the classroom are realistic.

[open mind]

I think open mind should have ap.net blocked on his web server whenever alcohol enters his system.

wasn't drinking when i posted in this thread.

it's kind of offensive to me that you would assume so.

[open mind]

If we teach kids how to be creative, who will take out the garbage and clean skyscrapers?

i think you'll get more creativity and innovation from kids (and the adults they will become) if you give them the resources to learn more about what they're really interested in instead of forcing them to spend countless hours memorizing and promptly forgetting stuff they don't care about.

[Love As Arson]

I agree with the latter part of your statement. However, at age six, which is the age most kids are entering first grade, I do not think they have a firm grasp on what they're actually interested in. The early grades, in my mind, should be spent building a foundation for creativity and expression that the subsequent years should build upon.

[Scrandon]

did i suggest that kids should be picking majors in the first grade?
Apparently not. Good.

[open mind]

I agree with the latter part of your statement. However, at age six, which is the age most kids are entering first grade, I do not think they have a firm grasp on what they're actually interested in. The early grades, in my mind, should be spent building a foundation for creativity and expression that the subsequent years should build upon.

why is the first grade what i'm talking about here? perhaps it's my fault for not making myself clear, but this 1st grade crap is totally unwarranted.
my definition of a kid is anywhere between 4 and 18. elementary school education must be broad enough and inclusive enough to show children the general basics. my stance (though poorly communicated) from the beginning has been that once children have a rudimentary understanding of the world (after sixth grade) that they should be given much more freedom to explore the things that interest them.

i believe that this approach would be much more effective for a variety of reasons. the first reason is that the kids in class are much more likely to be there because they WANT to be there......cutting down on the number of students who resent having to learn about things they don't care about, which in turn would increase in the amount of students who are enthusiastic about their learning and work (as learning would be a cool thing among the group), which in turn would create an atmosphere that's much more conducive to questioning, creativity, and pushing the bounds of human knowledge on whatever subject the child is involved in.

i'm not positing that making a 6 year old choose what they're going to be when they grow up is a good or intelligent thing to do......i'm merely saying that once a kid has been given a rudimentary education that they should be given more freedom (and by extension more creativity) when it comes to their education.

[open mind]

Apparently not. Good.

i accept your non-apology.

[domotime2]

i work at an elementary school. i have a hard time fathoming any kind of change

[David87]

We're already seeing changes in the system though. The idea that mass educating all kids is old and that's why we're seeing such a rise in IEP's, and looking for ways otehr then the standardized test to determine progress. Go back 10, 15 years ago and you'd be hard pressed to find an IEP...now a days it's normal to have afew kids in your classroom with one.


NCLB was a complete failure and the way it allocated federal funds was ridiculous.
Race To The Top has been good so far....but it's only year 2....must see more

[David87]

Also, going back a few pages....To blame it completely on the Unions is ridiculous. Education is one of the things where there raelly is no one main reason. Parents, teachers, administrators, socio-economic stats, unions, government, lack of government, etc and so on....all play big roles in children's education.

The Unions, much like everything else, do some good things and do some not so good things. The main goal should be to educate teachers who care about their jobs.

[open mind]

the guy posting above me edited most of what he said and i no longer think he's crazy.

i agree that nclb has been a complete and utter failure....and i also posit that the entire concept misses the point of education almost entirely.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

wasn't drinking when i posted in this thread.

it's kind of offensive to me that you would assume so.

I apologize if I hurt your feelings.

[open mind]

I apologize if I hurt your feelings.

my feelings were not hurt, but you did assume the standing of a complete and utter douchebag.

nevertheless, i will appreciate and seriously take into account whatever you have to say in future discussions despite your undeniable doucheyness.

[troubledbyinsects]

=\ maybe I'm wrong but it reaally feels like this thread is getting a little bit carried away. Yes, the mindset of your average public school is broken. But I just finsihed student teaching in a highschool last semester and from what I saw I really don't think we are trying to destroy creativity in the way many of you are trying to point out. Many teachers, if not the majority, are always trying to change up their lesson plans. I worked 8 weeks in a middle school and the administration requires the teachers to use at least 3 different instruction methods in each block period (80 minute class).

Overall the mindset is there and is a problem, but its not like teachers aren't trying to combat the system.


Do we need an educational rehaul? yeah it would probably help, but only small steps inside the classroom are realistic.
there are definitely a lot of good teachers who are teaching creatively, switching things up, and making things interesting. however, most of the teachers i've had in high school aren't like this. i always have 2 or so a year who are excellent, but the rest of them always suck at teaching.

[open mind]

i work at an elementary school. i have a hard time fathoming any kind of change

if there is a part of our education system that is doing anything right i believe it's our elementary education system.

[domotime2]

if there is a part of our education system that is doing anything right i believe it's our elementary education system.
don't get me wrong, there are plenty of teachers out there who do not deserve to be teachers.... and it has nothing to do with credentials, it just has to do with passion. Either teachers who are past their prime and are just ineffective..or teachers who abuse the system and are barely present in the classroom. But with a good teacher, the elementary school system is fine.

a) why are we all put through the school system by age group? Well when you're young and are basically non-developed it just makes the best sense no. When you're 5..you start kindergarten, and you school career begins. When you're in elementary school and you're having a tough time grasping the early basic skills of first-4th grade...mandatory education: adding/subtracting, spelling, critical thinking...then you have the option to repeat the grade again OR you get extra help.

b) kids should be able to express themselves more. Maybe there could be more REWARD for creativity in the schools, but for the most part, their are plenty of times during the school year when kids are given projects and assignments based on creativity, where they get to express themselves. There could definitely be more of those...but when you're in first grade, a kid needs to learn how to spell and what 4+4 is...so there's only so much you could do. But i've noticed that there are a lot of bullshit (hah no offense) creativity assignements for the kids. Make a family tree, make a newspaper, create a song etc.

c) there should be more group work. Kids are given the freedom to collaborate as much they want during a class day. There are specifically designed days for this, plus there's nothing stopping kids from working with eachother during their free time. But we all know that if you give the kids too much time for collaboration they'll abuse it and get no work done whatsoever.

d) more abstract learning. absolutely, but then something needs to be cut and i just don't know what to cut.

[perceptrons]

Bill Nye on science education (http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/evolution-classroom-bill-nye-science-education):
They're doing their job but they're under tremendous pressure. The 60 percent who are cautious--those are the people who are really up against it. They want to keep their job, and they love teaching science, and their children are really excited about it, and yet they've got some people insisting they can't teach the most fundamental idea in all of biology. There's the phrase "just a theory." Which shows you that I have failed. I'm a failure. When we have a theory in science, it's the greatest thing you can have. Relativity is a theory, and people test it every which way. They test it and test it and test it. Gravity is a theory. People have landed spacecraft on the moon within a few feet of accuracy because we understand gravity so well. People make flu vaccinations that stop people from getting sick. Farmers raise crops with science; they hybridize them and make them better with every generation. That's all evolution. Evolution is a theory, and it's a theory that you can test. We've tested evolution in many ways. You can't present good evidence that says evolution is not a fact.

[Scrandon]

I wish I had more group work in college. I think I've had a total of one group assignment.