"Dueling billboards face off in Christmas controversy" Atheist vs Christian billboard

[thechetearly]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/30/dueling-billboards-face-off-in-christmas-controversy/?hpt=C2

child's play.

your thoughts?

wise or unwise?

if you're an atheist should you rename a holiday named after a Christian figure if you don't believe in him?

should people even be allowed to post such "shove-it-in-your-face" religious or anti-religious propaganda?

3...2...1. debate.

[Kozzy333]

I've noticed on buses in my city there are signs that have quotes from the bible. Those piss me off and I want to rip them down.

[popdisaster00]

I'm an atheist, but I wouldn't want to rename Christmas. For so many people Christmas isn't even about Jesus anymore, it's about family and presents.

[DrStrong]

Some Athiests need to shut the fuck up, they're getting as bad as PETA.

EDIT: No movement of anytype whether it be religion/lifestyle/etc should try and force their beliefs onto other people.

[Simulcast]

The tone is all wrong. No one is going to take you seriously when you employ mockery.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

I'm an atheist, but I wouldn't want to rename Christmas. For so many people Christmas isn't even about Jesus anymore, it's about family and presents.

I'm agnostic and I feel the same way about Christmas

[DrStrong]

I'm agnostic and I feel the same way about Christmas
What exactly is Agnostic? I've always thought it was the belief in something greater but needs proof, right?

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

What exactly is Agnostic? I've always thought it was the belief in something greater but needs proof, right?

That God may or may not exist. It is impossible for humans to know the truth of his existence.

[DrStrong]

That God may or may not exist. It is impossible for humans to know the truth of his existence.
Oh alright. Personally im leaning in this direction. Since i've gotten older i've become more rational to all of the speculation, because honestly, who knows the validity of the Bible.

[thechetearly]

I'm an atheist, but I wouldn't want to rename Christmas. For so many people Christmas isn't even about Jesus anymore, it's about family and presents.

But it still implies that you acknowledge an existence of a "Christ". Continuing on using the word "Christmas" when someone doesn't believe in a Jesus Christ makes as much sense to me as someone who gets divorced keeping the last name of the person they divorced--or trying to disassociate the implications of the words "Democracy" and "Republic" from the political party names Democrat and Republican.

I think it almost shows laziness on the part of Atheist.

Regardless of what you think the holiday is about--the fact still is the name is rooted in a religious figure that Atheists believe don't existed. That makes no sense to me why you wouldn't come up with a new name for it then. lol

[thechetearly]

The tone is all wrong. No one is going to take you seriously when you employ mockery.

Good point

[thechetearly]

Some Athiests need to shut the fuck up, they're getting as bad as PETA.

EDIT: No movement of anytype whether it be religion/lifestyle/etc should try and force their beliefs onto other people.

Bingo

[paper halo]

But it still implies that you acknowledge an existence of a "Christ". Continuing on using the word "Christmas" when someone doesn't believe in a Jesus Christ makes as much sense to me as someone who gets divorced keeping the last name of the person they divorced--or trying to disassociate the implications of the words "Democracy" and "Republic" from the political party names Democrat and Republican.

I think it almost shows laziness on the part of Atheist.

Regardless of what you think the holiday is about--the fact still is the name is rooted in a religious figure that Atheists believe don't existed. That makes no sense to me why you wouldn't come up with a new name for it then. lol

Christmas also draws on the older Pagan festival of Yule, it has become about far more than it's religious background, regardless of it's name.

This is a giant who cares. Christian billboards exist in abundance in the states, atheists have just as much right to state their own beliefs in similar fashion. The only people who have a problem with it are pissed off Christians.

[JordanBuell]

I liked the "king kong theory" in the video. I dont know if he could have made himself sound any less educated.

[J.C.]

Douchey move by the atheist group. There are ways to get your point across without being overtly condescending and unnecessarily confrontational.

[J.C.]

Some Athiests need to shut the fuck up, they're getting as bad as PETA.

EDIT: No movement of anytype whether it be religion/lifestyle/etc should try and force their beliefs onto other people.

That's fine. Now go ahead and condemn the Catholic League for being guilty of the same thing with their billboard.

[thechetearly]

Christmas also draws on the older Pagan festival of Yule, it has become about far more than it's religious background, regardless of it's name.

This is a giant who cares. Christian billboards exist in abundance in the states, atheists have just as much right to state their own beliefs in similar fashion. The only people who have a problem with it are pissed off Christians.

I would say that level headed and competent Christians and Atheists alike think that religious or anti-religious billboards is a terribly ineffective way to excise rhetoric and always does more harm than good no matter what religion/antireligion

[thechetearly]

That's fine. Now go ahead and condemn the Catholic League for being guilty of the same thing with their billboard.

I'm pretty sure he DOES with his "edit:"......

[J.C.]

I'm pretty sure he DOES with his "edit:"......

I don't think the rhetoric in his edit is quite on par with "Some Atheists need to shut the fuck up".

[thechetearly]

Douchey move by the atheist group. There are ways to get your point across without being overtly condescending and unnecessarily confrontational.

I think the Christians pulled an equally if not more douchey move by placing up a billboard for the sheer fact to counteract the Atheist's. If Christian people who want to put up their billboards that are totally in peoples face--they should be well educated enough to know that it's not just THEM that can try and shove views down peoples throats.

[deFobbed14yrs]

Billboards are all around stupid. Why would you pay 20 grand to put up a message that hurts people. From either side.

I have never seen a billboard where a Christian group says BELIEVE IN CHRIST OR GO TO HELL!!
So Atheist groups can say their message a little bit nice. I mean Christianity isn't the only religion..

[paper halo]

I would say that level headed and competent Christians and Atheists alike think that religious or anti-religious billboards is a terribly ineffective way to excise rhetoric and always does more harm than good no matter what religion/antireligion

Sure. Hopefully those same people are level headed enough to not get worked up over a billboard.

[thechetearly]

I don't think the rhetoric in his edit is quite on par with "Some Atheists need to shut the fuck up".

....but you totally ignored the second part of his post haha. I see what he's saying though--Atheists and PETA (and YES Christians too) have EXTREMELY negative-promoting and in-your-face advertisements. when it come to billboards.

[Debut_Fin]

I'm an athiest and I thought that guy's arguments were pretty weak and that a more effective billboard could have been developed. I believe that people should be able to believe whatever they want, but I believe very strongly in separation of church and state. The amount of legislation in this country that passes based on peoples' religious opinions is disgusting to me. I also want to punch something every time I hear America described as a "Christian Nation".

Basically I just really wish we could all fucking respect each other and carry on with our lives, but with religion especially, peoples' beliefs are so deeply set that anything that challenges that belief causes them to react overly emotionally rather than logically.

I could go on about this for pages, but I'll stop

[tizabor]

As a Christian I believe that Christmas is a time to celebrate Jesus' birth, this includes buying presents, spending time with loved ones, singing Christmas music. Christmas shouldnt be about attacking each others personal beliefs.

[spiffa0]

Christmas also draws on the older Pagan festival of Yule, it has become about far more than it's religious background, regardless of it's name.

This is a giant who cares. Christian billboards exist in abundance in the states, atheists have just as much right to state their own beliefs in similar fashion. The only people who have a problem with it are pissed off Christians.


I'm not Christian and it annoys me. Obviously, they have the right to say whatever they want. But it's tasteless. Mocking people or forcing beliefs on to people, regardless of beliefs, is wrong. For the most part, I find hardcore atheists to be one of the most annoying groups of people.

[Live4TheKingdom]

But it still implies that you acknowledge an existence of a "Christ". Continuing on using the word "Christmas" when someone doesn't believe in a Jesus Christ makes as much sense to me as someone who gets divorced keeping the last name of the person they divorced--or trying to disassociate the implications of the words "Democracy" and "Republic" from the political party names Democrat and Republican.

I think it almost shows laziness on the part of Atheist.

Regardless of what you think the holiday is about--the fact still is the name is rooted in a religious figure that Atheists believe don't existed. That makes no sense to me why you wouldn't come up with a new name for it then. lol

With this mindset you must also want "in God we trust" taken off all money. Right?

You may also want to rename Sunday then... just saying.

[<*)))><]

Isn't Christmas about capitalism?

[paper halo]

I'm not Christian and it annoys me. Obviously, they have the right to say whatever they want. But it's tasteless. Mocking people or forcing beliefs on to people, regardless of beliefs, is wrong. For the most part, I find hardcore atheists to be one of the most annoying groups of people.

Do you find Christian billboards annoying too?

Bottom line: Billboards are always obnoxious delivery methods for dumbed down messages and advertising. If you're stupid enough to get worked up by them, it's your own problem.

[Jason Tate]

Do you find Christian billboards annoying too?

Bottom line: Billboards are always obnoxious delivery methods for dumbed down messages and advertising. If you're stupid enough to get worked up by them, it's your own problem.
This.

[thechetearly]

With this mindset you must also want "in God we trust" taken off all money. Right?

You may also want to rename Sunday then... just saying.

I couldn't careless about any of that--I'm not an Atheist. I'm just saying people shouldn't bitch about stuff if they're not trying to take things all the way.

I think they could remove "in God we trust" if they really tried. I mean--prayer used to be in schools, they removed that, took the ten commandments out of the court house, etc. They could do it if they really wanted.

[Live4TheKingdom]

Would also like to add pushing ANYTHING down ANYONES throat is wrong. Let people go on doing what they want and believing what they want. If its not hurting anyone then what's the problem????

[thechetearly]

Isn't Christmas about capitalism?

strange. AMERICA is about capitalism. haaaa

[Jason Tate]

With this mindset you must also want "in God we trust" taken off all money. Right?

You may also want to rename Sunday then... just saying.
Yes. It was put on for a stupid reason, so it should be removed.

[Jason Tate]

Would also like to add pushing ANYTHING down ANYONES throat is wrong. Let people go on doing what they want and believingwhat they want. If its not hurting anyone then what's the problem????
And if, on a whole, it is hurting people ... ?

[Live4TheKingdom]

Yes. It was put on for a stupid reason, so it should be removed.

Who are you to judge someones reasoning?

[Live4TheKingdom]

And if, on a whole, it is hurting people ... ?

War?

[J.C.]

Who are you to judge someones reasoning?

Another human?

[Jason Tate]

Who are you to judge someones reasoning?
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

The same way I'd judge the fuck out of "In Harry Potter we trust" being on my dollar bill.

[Jason Tate]

War?
One of hundreds of examples.

[<*)))><]

How about "In Brand New we trust"?

[Live4TheKingdom]

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

The same way I'd judge the fuck out of "In Harry Potter we trust" being on my dollar bill.

If you don't like the beliefs that this country was founded on then leave, or stop using the money if it's that big of a deal. Oh wait its not...

[DrStrong]

That's fine. Now go ahead and condemn the Catholic League for being guilty of the same thing with their billboard.

I don't think the rhetoric in his edit is quite on par with "Some Atheists need to shut the fuck up".

....but you totally ignored the second part of his post haha. I see what he's saying though--Atheists and PETA (and YES Christians too) have EXTREMELY negative-promoting and in-your-face advertisements. when it come to billboards.
All i was trying to point out is that Athiest protests, for the most part, use shock value to get their message across. That is the only reason i brought them up in the same sentence as PETA.

[J.C.]

If you don't like the beliefs that this country was founded on then leave.

Like that a black person is 3/5ths of a white person.

[Scrandon]

If you don't like the beliefs that this country was founded on then leave, or stop using the money if it's that big of a deal. Oh wait its not...
lol Did you read the link?

[thechetearly]

If you don't like the beliefs that this country was founded on then leave, or stop using the money if it's that big of a deal. Oh wait its not...

You're obviously talking about the beliefs of like...oh....slavery right? And taking the Native American's lands right? ....oh, and intentinoally killing them our diseases...right?

[Jason Tate]

If you don't like the beliefs that this country was founded on then leave, or stop using the money if it's that big of a deal. Oh wait its not...
I don't like many of the beliefs this country was founded on. I like some. But as we grow and evolve, so should our "beliefs." Civilization should evolve, not remain stagnant.

How about I promote a positive change instead of running away? Seems like a more logical thought process.

[Jason Tate]

All i was trying to point out is that Athiest protests, for the most part, use shock value to get their message across. That is the only reason i brought them up in the same sentence as PETA.
"Repent or burn for eternity" seems like a pretty big "shock value" message to me.

[Live4TheKingdom]

Like that a black person os 3/5ths of a white person.

America wasnt founded on that..

[Live4TheKingdom]

You're obviously talking about the beliefs of like...oh....slavery right? And taking the Native American's lands right? ....oh, and intentinoally killing them our diseases...right?

Im almost positive it wasnt the pilgrims beliefs to do all that. Nice try though

[JZebrak57]

I'm an athiest and I thought that guy's arguments were pretty weak and that a more effective billboard could have been developed. I believe that people should be able to believe whatever they want, but I believe very strongly in separation of church and state. The amount of legislation in this country that passes based on peoples' religious opinions is disgusting to me. I also want to punch something every time I hear America described as a "Christian Nation".

Basically I just really wish we could all fucking respect each other and carry on with our lives, but with religion especially, peoples' beliefs are so deeply set that anything that challenges that belief causes them to react overly emotionally rather than logically.

I could go on about this for pages, but I'll stop
THIS. Except I'm a Christian. Everyone should be able to believe what they want. In the end, when everyone passes on, I guess we'll find out who was "right". People just need to shut up about it all.

[Debut_Fin]

Would also like to add pushing ANYTHING down ANYONES throat is wrong. Let people go on doing what they want and believingwhat they want. If its not hurting anyone then what's the problem????

Christians do shove things down peoples' throats though and there has to be some kind of response to challenge that.

This billboard is not the way to do that though

[thechetearly]

Im almost positive it wasnt the pilgrims beliefs to do all that. Nice try though

HAHAHAHA oh my goodness you're so saturated in the manifest destiny/myth of America that it's disgusting.

i'm guessing you still think thanksgiving is based on actual events and Chris Columbus was a good guy--right?

[DrStrong]

"Repent or burn for eternity" seems like a pretty big "shock value" message to me.
For once, I completely agree with you. I've given a lot of thought to my beliefs recently, and i've come to the conclusion that I dont believe in anything unless there is documented proof.

[Jason Tate]

America wasnt founded on that..
Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3 of the United States Constitution.

[Live4TheKingdom]

Would just like to say that yes RELIGION is opressive. There is nothing wrong with being religious or having set beliefs.

The thing is that most athiest are upset because they see that "alot of" christians like to forcefully but their beliefs upon them. And tell them its my way or... hell. That is WRONG

But how about instead of bitching about it you try not to be like those people? Dont tell someone God isnt real if you dont like the fact that people tell you that he is, and your wrong for not thinking so.

Is what I believe in right? I dont fucking know. But that doesnt make anyone else more or less right or wrong. We are all equal.

/rant

[Live4TheKingdom]

HAHAHAHA oh my goodness you're so saturated in the manifest destiny/myth of America that it's disgusting.

i'm guessing you still think thanksgiving is based on actual events and Chris Columbus was a good guy--right?

Yes sir because you know me oh so well. Im sure you believe that two random objects (how did they get there again?) collided and make ALL the matter in the universe.. right?

[Live4TheKingdom]

Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3 of the United States Constitution.

When did "americans" get here, and when was the Constitution finalized? ok then

[thechetearly]

Yes sir because you know me oh so well. Im sure you believe that two random objects (how did they get there again?) collided and make ALL the matter in the universe.. right?

haha nope. I'm actually a practicing Christian :) true story.

[Simulcast]

HAHAHAHA oh my goodness you're so saturated in the manifest destiny/myth of America that it's disgusting.

i'm guessing you still think thanksgiving is based on actual events and Chris Columbus was a good guy--right?

The only reason you believe he wasn't was because someone told you that was so.

[Kozzy333]

Christians do need to be taken down a peg so I kind of like this billboard war.

[Jason Tate]

When did "americans" get here, and when was the Constitution finalized? ok then
So the United States Constitution is not what the country was founded on (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=80566362#post80566 362)?

I can't put up with this much stupid today. Say something of value or just go away.

[Jason Tate]

The only reason you believe he wasn't was because someone told you that was so.
Nah, it actually has to do with his actions. Same reason I don't think Michael Vick is a good guy.

[thechetearly]

The only reason you believe he wasn't was because someone told you that was so.

...that's a joke right? I'm sure that's not a general term for "good person", but invading and killing off people who have lived in a certain place for hundreds and hundreds of years is NOT it.

it's not being told man--that's common sense...

[J.C.]

America wasnt founded on that..

You're cherrypicking the ideals that were held in this country at the time of its founding and passing them off as though they more accurately represented America.

[Scrandon]

When did "americans" get here, and when was the Constitution finalized? ok then
Shit you're stupid. The Constitution is the founding document of America. Also, the Pilgrims you so admire came here to flee religious persecution, not to found a theocracy.

[spiffa0]

Do you find Christian billboards annoying too?

Bottom line: Billboards are always obnoxious delivery methods for dumbed down messages and advertising. If you're stupid enough to get worked up by them, it's your own problem.


I rarely see a Christian billboard (or atheist billboard for that matter). So I can't say that I do.

[Live4TheKingdom]

So the United States Constitution is not what the country was founded on (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=80566362#post80566 362)?

I can't put up with this much stupid today. Say something of value or just go away.

You are nothing and you will return to nothing.

Peace cholo

[JordanBuell]

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

The same way I'd judge the fuck out of "In Harry Potter we trust" being on my dollar bill.

I would prefer "In Harry Potter we trust" actually. At least most people know that Harry Potter is fictional.

[Jason Tate]

You are nothing and you will return to nothing.

Peace cholo
Well, at least we agree on something.

Racism too? Just being a stand up guy today, aren'tcha?

[Jason Tate]

I would prefer "In Harry Potter we trust" actually. At least most people know that Harry Potter is fictional.
"In Yoda we trust.."?

Eh? That would be pretty cool.

[DrStrong]

"In Yoda we trust.."?

Eh? That would be pretty cool.
How about just remove the slogan altogether? Or something like "In Our Country We Trust."

[JordanBuell]

"In Yoda we trust.."?

Eh? That would be pretty cool.

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Entertainment/Images/Morgan-Freeman-God.jpg

In Morgan Freeman we trust.

[PirateSkater182]

Being an Agnostic is just being a pussy. Just admit you don't believe in God.

[DrStrong]

Being an Agnostic is just being a pussy. Just admit you don't believe in God.
That is a pretty stupid statement. I DONT KNOW if God is real, I'm not totally dismissing the notion.

[PirateSkater182]

Bottom line, God's not real.

[Jason Tate]

Being an Agnostic is just being a pussy. Just admit you don't believe in God.
What an incredibly short sighted response. Which god? There are hundreds.

[PirateSkater182]

What an incredibly short sighted response. Which god? There are hundreds.

Why believe in any?

[PirateSkater182]

That is a pretty stupid statement. I DONT KNOW if God is real, I'm not totally dismissing the notion.

Sounds like you have commitment issues.

[Jason Tate]

Why believe in any?
Has nothing to do with what I said. Agnostic says "I don't know" - a completely rational response.

[DrStrong]

Bottom line, God's not real.

Why believe in any?
My father-in-law is a soon to me minister in the Morman religion. Me and him would have arguements like this periodically over the past couple of months and he only made one valid point:

Wouldnt it be better to go through life believing, preparing for something that may or may not be true? Or would you rather discard the thought of God and have to face judgement day?

[Wasupi]

My father-in-law is a soon to me minister in the Morman religion. Me and him would have arguements like this periodically over the past couple of months and he only made one valid point:

Wouldnt it be better to go through life believing, preparing for something that may or may not be true? Or would you rather discard the thought of God and have to face judgement day?

Just so you know its Mormon :-)

[Jason Tate]

My father-in-law is a soon to me minister in the Morman religion. Me and him would have arguements like this periodically over the past couple of months and he only made one valid point:

Wouldnt it be better to go through life believing, preparing for something that may or may not be true? Or would you rather discard the thought of God and have to face judgement day?
Not a valid point, it's Pascal's Wager.

Would you bet on God's valuing dishonestly faked belief (or even honest belief) over honest skepticism?

[JordanBuell]

My father-in-law is a soon to me minister in the Morman religion. Me and him would have arguements like this periodically over the past couple of months and he only made one valid point:

Wouldnt it be better to go through life believing, preparing for something that may or may not be true? Or would you rather discard the thought of God and have to face judgement day?

Thats nothing more than being scared into believing something...

[PirateSkater182]

Has nothing to do with what I said. Agnostic says "I don't know" - a completely rational response.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I know what it means. I'm just saying I don't get the point of it. To me, it's either you believe in it or you don't.

[Jason Tate]

I'm not trying to argue with you, I know what it means. I'm just saying I don't get the point of it. To me, it's either you believe in it or you don't.
And for the rest of the rationally minded population, thankfully there is more than just a black and white answer. Belief and "knowing" are not the same.

[DrStrong]

Just so you know its Mormon :-)
haha, thanks.
Not a valid point, it's Pascal's Wager.

Would you bet on God's valuing dishonestly faked belief (or even honest belief) over honest skepticism?
This is what I told him, "If I was leading a good life, regardless of practicing religion, shouldnt I be given a spot into heaven anyway?"

Thats nothing more than being scared into believing something...
I USED to blindly follow Christianity, but I'm over it now.

[PirateSkater182]

My father-in-law is a soon to me minister in the Morman religion. Me and him would have arguements like this periodically over the past couple of months and he only made one valid point:

Wouldnt it be better to go through life believing, preparing for something that may or may not be true? Or would you rather discard the thought of God and have to face judgement day?

Mormons are just as wrong when it comes to religion as everyone else. They do have some awesome bulletproof underwear though.

[J.C.]

To me, it's either you believe in it or you don't.

what you believe =/= what you know

[PirateSkater182]

what you believe =/= what you know

No shit? Did you just make that up?

[JordanBuell]

I USED to blindly follow Christianity, but I'm over it now.

Same. Christianity/ most religions seems so crazy now that i have taken a step back and started thinking critically.

[J.C.]

No shit? Did you just make that up?

You equated the two. You can be agnostic and not believe in a God. It's about recognizing an absence of proof.

[GeeBee]

That is a pretty stupid statement. I DONT KNOW if God is real, I'm not totally dismissing the notion.

Has nothing to do with what I said. Agnostic says "I don't know" - a completely rational response.
The problem with agnosticism is in its redundancy. No one really "knows", nor can they. It's a given. But for some reason, when someone asks you if there really is a Santa Claus, you don't call yourself an "agnostic" because it can't conclusively be proven one way or another. Since there's no way to prove a negative, the tag "agnostic", while completely rational and technically correct, is unnecessary. Hence, you should be as comfortable saying "there's no god" as you are in saying "there are no unicorns", regardless of the fact that it's impossible to prove such a statement. Agnosticism, as a response to theism, is simply the result of theism being widespread.

[GeeBee]

You equated the two. You can be agnostic and not believe in a God. It's about recognizing an absence of proof.
See above. EVERYONE is agnostic, whether they acknowledge it or not.

[PirateSkater182]

You equated the two. You can be agnostic and not believe in a God. It's about recognizing an absence of proof.

The absence of proof is why I'm an Atheist... I don't believe in God, so I'm not gonna call myself an Agnostic.

[PirateSkater182]

The problem with agnosticism is in its redundancy. No one really "knows", nor can they. It's a given. But for some reason, when someone asks you if there really is a Santa Claus, you don't call yourself an "agnostic" because it can't conclusively be proven one way or another. Since there's no way to prove a negative, the tag "agnostic", while completely rational and technically correct, is unnecessary. Hence, you should be as comfortable saying "there's no god" as you are in saying "there are no unicorns", regardless of the fact that it's impossible to prove such a statement. Agnosticism, as a response to theism, is simply the result of theism being widespread.

Thank you!

[jessicalynn-xx]

But it still implies that you acknowledge an existence of a "Christ". Continuing on using the word "Christmas" when someone doesn't believe in a Jesus Christ makes as much sense to me as someone who gets divorced keeping the last name of the person they divorced--or trying to disassociate the implications of the words "Democracy" and "Republic" from the political party names Democrat and Republican.

I think it almost shows laziness on the part of Atheist.

If calling Christmas Christmas makes Atheists lazy, then having yule logs, "Christmas" trees, hanging mistletoe, and caroling, make Christians lazy as well. These are all pagan traditions of Saturnalia that early Christians hijacked for their own holiday. I don't think it's fair to say Christians are lazy for that reason, and I don't think it's fair to say Atheists are lazy for that reason either.

[GeeBee]

And for the rest of the rationally minded population, thankfully there is more than just a black and white answer. Belief and "knowing" are not the same.
I find the question of deity to be quite black and white. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle

[tonighttonight0]

I haven't talked to a single person in a while who still treats Christmas as a Christian holiday that's based on the birth of Jesus. Atheists need to find something new to bitch about.

[jessicalynn-xx]

I'm not Christian and it annoys me. Obviously, they have the right to say whatever they want. But it's tasteless. Mocking people or forcing beliefs on to people, regardless of beliefs, is wrong. For the most part, I find hardcore atheists to be one of the most annoying groups of people.

How is this mockery?

[GeeBee]

I haven't talked to a single person in a while who still treats Christmas as a Christian holiday that's based on the birth of Jesus. Atheists need to find something new to bitch about.
Agreed. As an atheist, one of my main qualms with religion is their incessant need to recruit and be validated by being agreed with. Atheists shouldn't fall into that trap.

[jessicalynn-xx]

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

The same way I'd judge the fuck out of "In Harry Potter we trust" being on my dollar bill.

Hahaha coolest money ever.

[GeeBee]

How is this mockery?
I'll agree with this, however. Calling a legend a legend and a myth a myth is not mockery.

[jessicalynn-xx]

My father-in-law is a soon to me minister in the Morman religion. Me and him would have arguements like this periodically over the past couple of months and he only made one valid point:

Wouldnt it be better to go through life believing, preparing for something that may or may not be true? Or would you rather discard the thought of God and have to face judgement day?

Okay so which god should I believe in then?

[tonighttonight0]

Agreed. As an atheist, one of my main qualms with religion is their incessant need to recruit and be validated by being agreed with. Atheists shouldn't fall into that trap.
My thoughts exactly. Great avatar by the way.

[GeeBee]

My father-in-law is a soon to me minister in the Morman religion. Me and him would have arguements like this periodically over the past couple of months and he only made one valid point:

Wouldnt it be better to go through life believing, preparing for something that may or may not be true? Or would you rather discard the thought of God and have to face judgement day?
Too bad it's not a valid point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager#Criticisms

[DrStrong]

Okay so which god should I believe in then?
I'm only familiar with the Christian God, Jesus, Moses/Joseph Smith, the Virgin Mary.

So that is Christianity, Mormonism, and Catholicism, respectively.

It's up to you.

[GeeBee]

My thoughts exactly. Great avatar by the way.
Stellar username.

[GeeBee]

I'm only familiar with the Christian God, Jesus, Moses/Joseph Smith, the Virgin Mary.

So that is Christianity, Mormonism, and Catholicism, respectively.

It's up to you.

Wow. Clearly you're not getting it.

[DrStrong]

Too bad it's not a valid point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager#Criticisms
It was a good point to me, I didnt know of Pascal's Wager.

[GeeBee]

Sigh.

[PirateSkater182]

I'm only familiar with the Christian God, Jesus, Moses/Joseph Smith, the Virgin Mary.

So that is Christianity, Mormonism, and Catholicism, respectively.

It's up to you.

eBPqksG9nbA&feature=related

[DrStrong]

Wow. Clearly you're not getting it.
What the hell do you want me to say? If you're trying to be clever by masking your point with a stupid question well then i'm sorry, come right out and say it.

[jessicalynn-xx]

Being an Agnostic is just being a pussy. Just admit you don't believe in God.'

That's not necessarily true, you could be an agnostic theist.
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1082/atheisttheistagnosticgnyh5.jpg

[tonighttonight0]

eBPqksG9nbA&feature=related
Lulz. Although I've met people exactly like that.

[GeeBee]

'

That's not necessarily true, you could be an agnostic theist.

That's the point. Theists can be and necessarily ARE agnostic, as is everyone else. Agnosticism isn't a stance, is simply an acknowledgement of fact.

[incognitojones]

Christmas is as much of an Atheist holiday as it is a Christian holiday. My parents never raised me with any religion, but we celebrated Christmas. I didn't know anything about Jesus until third grade.

[Jason Tate]

The problem with agnosticism is in its redundancy. No one really "knows", nor can they. It's a given. But for some reason, when someone asks you if there really is a Santa Claus, you don't call yourself an "agnostic" because it can't conclusively be proven one way or another. Since there's no way to prove a negative, the tag "agnostic", while completely rational and technically correct, is unnecessary. Hence, you should be as comfortable saying "there's no god" as you are in saying "there are no unicorns", regardless of the fact that it's impossible to prove such a statement. Agnosticism, as a response to theism, is simply the result of theism being widespread.
Uh, this is more of an argument against atheism not agnosticism.

[PirateSkater182]

'

That's not necessarily true, you could be an agnostic theist.
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1082/atheisttheistagnosticgnyh5.jpg
Thanks for the diagram, never knew that before. :rolleyes:

[jessicalynn-xx]

I'm only familiar with the Christian God, Jesus, Moses/Joseph Smith, the Virgin Mary.

So that is Christianity, Mormonism, and Catholicism, respectively.

It's up to you.

I know you know there are other religions besides those ones, Hinduism, Islam, etc. According to your logic I can't make any reasonable choice here because I'm risking going to the hell of the ones I dismiss.

[DrStrong]

I know you know there are other religions besides those ones, Hinduism, Islam, etc. According to your logic I can't make any reasonable choice here because I'm risking going to the hell of the ones I dismiss.
Yea, i know there are more religions out there, but I'm not familiar with them so I wont bring them up.

[jessicalynn-xx]

That's the point. Theists can be and necessarily ARE agnostic, as is everyone else. Agnosticism isn't a stance, is simply an acknowledgement of fact.

I know some theists who would say they are 100% certain there is a god. I know atheists who would say they are 100% certain there isn't. I don't think it's fair to assume everyone is agnostic.

[brook183]

christmas is what it is. There is no reason to debate about what it isn't

[Jason Tate]

I find the question of deity to be quite black and white. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle
Good for you. I find the question of a "deity" to, at present, be unanswerable.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_excluded_middle

[jessicalynn-xx]

Yea, i know there are more religions out there, but I'm not familiar with them so I wont bring them up.

Well you should familiarize yourself with them or you risk going to the Muslim hell! That would suck so bad!

[J.C.]

See above. EVERYONE is agnostic, whether they acknowledge it or not.

I was working within the framework of his own argument, where he contended that someone who is agnostic can't believe/not believe in God. I'd agree that we're all ultimately agnostic.

The absence of proof is why I'm an Atheist... I don't believe in God, so I'm not gonna call myself an Agnostic.

Saying "God isn't real" is not the same as saying "I have no reason to believe in God".

Do you believe innocence is the absence of proof? If someone commits a murder and doesn't leave behind incriminating evidence that would be necessary for you to convict them, does that mean they weren't guilty? Applying your same level of certainty to the absence of proof here would indicate you couldn't possibly think they were ever guilty.

[zion the lion]

I honestly cant stand anybody who claims to know something like this beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's just arrogant.

[PirateSkater182]

Saying "God isn't real" is not the same as saying "I have no reason to believe in God".

Do you believe innocence is the absence of proof? If someone commits a murder and doesn't leave behind incriminating evidence that would be necessary for you to convict them, does that mean they weren't guilty? Applying your same level of certainty to the absence of proof here would indicate you couldn't possibly think they were guilty.

You ever heard of this thing called Morals? I dont need church and God in my life to know not to kill someone, steal, ect. I'm an Atheist, not a fuckin criminal.

[J.C.]

You ever heard of this thing called Morals? I dont need church and God in my life to know not to kill someone, steal, ect. I'm an Atheist, not a fuckin criminal.

Please forgive me for overestimating your intelligence in this discussion.

[PirateSkater182]

Please forgive me for overestimating your intelligence in this discussion.

No problem, happens all the time.

[jessicalynn-xx]

Please forgive me for overestimating your intelligence in this discussion.

Hahahaha

[secretsociety92]

We all have to put up with someone who has an opinion we don't agree with, don't get the big deal here.

[yves.]

Billboards are all around stupid. Why would you pay 20 grand to put up a message that hurts people. From either side.

I have never seen a billboard where a Christian group says BELIEVE IN CHRIST OR GO TO HELL!!
So Atheist groups can say their message a little bit nice. I mean Christianity isn't the only religion..

You must have never visited the south, it is so full of billboards like that here.

As far as the "controversy" goes, as an atheist, I absolutely love (almost) everything about christmas. I just don't partake in the religious portions of the holiday. I also don't think the atheists did anything wrong with posting the billboard (other than the fact that the money could probably be used in a better way), I just think it's ridiculous that the christian group got so butthurt over it that they needed to put up a billboard countering the atheists'.

[Jason Tate]

You must have never visited the south, it is so full of billboards like that here.

As far as the "controversy" goes, as an atheist, I absolutely love (almost) everything about christmas. I just don't partake in the religious portions of the holiday. I also don't think the atheists did anything wrong with posting the billboard (other than the fact that the money could probably be used in a better way), I just think it's ridiculous that the christian group got so butthurt over it that they needed to put up a billboard countering the atheists'.
http://www.stracy.org/xcountry/Pict1483.jpg

[PirateSkater182]

http://johngushue.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/07/13/god_listens_to_slayer.jpg
(http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=god+listens+to+slayer)

[zion the lion]

What is the logic in celebrating christmas if you arent a christian and you're so against christianity?

[DrStrong]

What is the logic in celebrating christmas if you arent a christian and you're so against christianity?
Here we go!

[Jason Tate]

What is the logic in celebrating christmas if you arent a christian and you're so against christianity?
Santa Claus.

[zion the lion]

Here we go!

I've already posted in this thread, dont go there.

Santa Claus.

There's a guy I see all over town who either seriously thinks he's Santa or he really is Santa. I'm leaning toward the latter.

[J.C.]

What is the logic in celebrating christmas if you arent a christian and you're so against christianity?

For the same reason people who aren't Irish get plastered on St. Patrick's Day.

[Jason Tate]

I've already posted in this thread, dont go there.



There's a guy I see all over town who either seriously thinks he's Santa or he really is Santa. I'm leaning toward the latter.
Lock your brother in his room.

[zion the lion]

For the same reason people who aren't Irish get plastered on St. Patrick's Day.

Because they're alcoholics?

[yves.]

What is the logic in celebrating christmas if you arent a christian and you're so against christianity?

Christmas has become a secular, business oriented holiday. How many families do you know actually go to church on christmas or on christmas eve? How do you think children with parents of other religions feel when they have to deal with this christmas present and santa claus stuff everywhere, and when their classmates or teachers ask them about what presents they got or what their christmas tree is like?
Personally, I enjoy the atmosphere of christmas, the seasonal foods (roasted chestnuts, anyone?), the christmas music, setting up the tree, decorating the house, using the fireplace, spending time with my family, thinking up/cooking/eating christmas dinner, purchasing presents, getting presents... There are so many things about christmas that aren't religious, it isn't necessary at all for one to be a christian to celebrate christmas.

[DrStrong]

Because they're alcoholics?
Because its an excuse to drink heavily. Plus, Irish pubs will have green beer.

[<*)))><]

What GREEN beer? How the flying horse fuck is that possible?

[zion the lion]

Christmas has become a secular, business oriented holiday. How many families do you know actually go to church on christmas or on christmas eve? How do you think children with parents of other religions feel when they have to deal with this christmas present and santa claus stuff everywhere, and when their classmates or teachers ask them about what presents they got or what their christmas tree is like?
Personally, I enjoy the atmosphere of christmas, the seasonal foods (roasted chestnuts, anyone?), the christmas music, setting up the tree, decorating the house, using the fireplace, spending time with my family, thinking up/cooking/eating christmas dinner, purchasing presents, getting presents... There are so many things about christmas that aren't religious, it isn't necessary at all for one to be a christian to celebrate christmas.

I know a lot who go to church. And its the same way Jehovah's Witnesses deal with christmas.

It's like going around celebrating Ramadan or Easter. I love painting eggs, and chocolate bunnies involve my two favorite things, but I dont really believe in God or that Jesus rose from the dead so I dont see the point in doing those on a certain day.

[yves.]

Asking why non christians celebrate christmas is like asking why non christians listen to christian bands.

[bridgeofeldin]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/10/us/10atheist.html

The most expensive campaign is staged by the American Humanist Association. Mr. Stiefel’s foundation donated $150,000 — three-quarters of the cost, part of which goes for television and cable advertisements. That campaign plucks out bracing Scripture passages about women, homosexuality or the wrath of God, like this one from the Old Testament:

“The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.” (from Hosea 13:16, New International Version).

This is contrasted with a quote from Albert Einstein saying that he “cannot imagine” such a God.

Perhaps a better attempt at "advertising" atheism. Although I'm still not quite convinced by it either.

[yves.]

I know a lot who go to church. And its the same way Jehovah's Witnesses deal with christmas.

It's like going around celebrating Ramadan or Easter. I love painting eggs, and chocolate bunnies involve my two favorite things, but I dont really believe in God or that Jesus rose from the dead so I dont see the point in doing those on a certain day.

You think kids feel good being left out of things like christmas? And do you not see a point in having a valentine on valentine's day or celebrating your mother on mother's day or celebrating someone's birthday on the day of their birth either?

[zion the lion]

You think kids feel good being left out of things like christmas? And do you not see a point in having a valentine on valentine's day or celebrating your mother on mother's day or celebrating someone's birthday on the day of their birth either?

No, no, and no on those last three things.

[deFobbed14yrs]

You must have never visited the south, it is so full of billboards like that here.

As far as the "controversy" goes, as an atheist, I absolutely love (almost) everything about christmas. I just don't partake in the religious portions of the holiday. I also don't think the atheists did anything wrong with posting the billboard (other than the fact that the money could probably be used in a better way), I just think it's ridiculous that the christian group got so butthurt over it that they needed to put up a billboard countering the atheists'.

http://www.stracy.org/xcountry/Pict1483.jpg

OH. I recant what I said.

[Wasupi]

I just think it's ridiculous that the christian group got so butthurt over it that they needed to put up a billboard countering the atheists'.

Couldn't one say that it is just as ridiculous that atheists got butthurt over people celebrating the birth of Jesus on Christmas that they needed to put up a billboard? It just seems like a childish way of picking a fight/trying to start a controversy.

I think both sides are being childish in this thing... let people celebrate/believe(or not believe) what they want...

[GeeBee]

Uh, this is more of an argument against atheism not agnosticism.
Not at all, since agnosticism deals with knowledge and atheism deals with belief. Again, I'm not arguing against agnosticism, simply pointing out that the tag is unnecessary, since everyone is ultimately agnostic, irrespective of their acknowledgment.
I know some theists who would say they are 100% certain there is a god. I know atheists who would say they are 100% certain there isn't. I don't think it's fair to assume everyone is agnostic.
As far as theism or atheism, anyone who claims 100% certainty is misguided.
Also, the FACT that everyone is an agnostic is absolutely fair. No one knows, nor CAN they know (at present), hence everyone's agnostic.
Good for you. I find the question of a "deity" to, at present, be unanswerable.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_excluded_middle
No argument that it's unanswerable. But that doesn't mean the only available answer as to the existence of deity is either "does" or "doesn't", there's no middle ground.
I'd further assert that it's counter to the Law of Parsimony to ask the question in the first place, when deity is (at present) likely an unnecessary entity.

[GeeBee]

Couldn't one say that it is just as ridiculous that atheists got butthurt over people celebrating the birth of Jesus on Christmas that they needed to put up a billboard?
Yes, that would be ridiculous, if that was what happened. Despite the stupidity of a billboard as the medium, they said nothing inflammatory. They merely pointed out that Christ's birth is not at all based on any kind of historical, archaeological, or biological reality- in fewer words.

[Jason Tate]

Not at all, since agnosticism deals with knowledge and atheism deals with belief. Again, I'm not arguing against agnosticism, simply pointing out that the tag is unnecessary, since everyone is ultimately agnostic, irrespective of their acknowledgment.

As far as theism or atheism, anyone who claims 100% certainty is misguided.
Also, the FACT that everyone is an agnostic is absolutely fair. No one knows, nor CAN they know (at present), hence everyone's agnostic.

No argument that it's unanswerable. But that doesn't mean the only available answer as to the existence of deity is either "does" or "doesn't", there's no middle ground.
I'd further assert that it's counter to the Law of Parsimony to ask the question in the first place, when deity is (at present) likely an unnecessary entity.
Doesn't make the tag unnecessary. It's a descriptive tag.

You not knowing the middle ground doesn't mean it may not exist. That doesn't have to be the only answer. Open your mind, just a tad. It's good for you.

[GeeBee]

Doesn't make the tag unnecessary. It's a descriptive tag.

You not knowing the middle ground doesn't mean it may not exist. That doesn't have to be the only answer. Open your mind, just a tad. It's good for you.
I suppose it could be useful as a descriptive tag.

My mind's completely open to whatever suggestion you have as to what can fit between "x exists" and "x doesn't exist".

[Jason Tate]

I suppose it could be useful as a descriptive tag.

My mind's completely open to whatever suggestion you have as to what can fit between "x exists" and "x doesn't exist".
The entire point is that I have no suggestion, I don't know. I'm just willing to admit I don't know - which, by definition, takes us away from the black or white answer. Existence itself is philosophically debatable.

[yves.]

Couldn't one say that it is just as ridiculous that atheists got butthurt over people celebrating the birth of Jesus on Christmas that they needed to put up a billboard? It just seems like a childish way of picking a fight/trying to start a controversy.

I think both sides are being childish in this thing... let people celebrate/believe(or not believe) what they want...
I see it as the atheists just making a statement and the christians responding to it as though they are a minority that is being victimized.

[GeeBee]

The entire point is that I have no suggestion, I don't know. I'm just willing to admit I don't know - which, by definition, takes us away from the black or white answer. Existence itself is philosophically debatable.
True, true, existence is certainly debatable. But for the sake of this debate, I'm simply asserting that there likely IS an answer, that it's either yes/no, while admitting we absolutely are nowhere near being able to ascertain that answer.

[GeeBee]

I see it as the atheists just making a statement and the christians responding to it as though they are a minority that is being victimized.
Don't deny them their long, proud heritage.

[Jason Tate]

True, true, existence is certainly debatable. But for the sake of this debate, I'm simply asserting that there likely IS an answer, that it's either yes/no, while admitting we absolutely are nowhere near being able to ascertain that answer.
And for the sake of rationality, I'm stating the obvious: you're constructing only two answers - yes or no. Which is a logical fallacy. We don't know what the answer is. Nor do we know what it could be.

[jessicalynn-xx]

As far as theism or atheism, anyone who claims 100% certainty is misguided.
Also, the FACT that everyone is an agnostic is absolutely fair. No one knows, nor CAN they know (at present), hence everyone's agnostic.

But can you see how your own views are clouding your judgment here? Someone who is religious and says they talk to god will tell you they know for a fact god exists because they spoke to him. As much as you or I may disagree, or think they are deluding themselves, or that they are misguided, that person is not acknowledging the possibility that god does not exist therefore they are not agnostic. Agnosticism is acknowledging that there is an element of uncertainty. If a person doesn't acknowledge that then they aren't agnostic.

It's like creationists. They deny evolution despite the fact that it is real. By your logic, I could tell someone who denies evolution that they actually do believe in evolution, because evolution is real whether they like it or not. But that has nothing to do with whether or not they acknowledge that.

[Wasupi]

I see it as the atheists just making a statement and the christians responding to it as though they are a minority that is being victimized.

But really what does this billboard accomplish for the atheists? I don't think someone who is Christian is gonna stop believing just because a billboard told them its not reasonable. It just seems like they were trying to piss people off. Sooooo congratulations... I guess they got what they wanted. . .?

Not saying the Christians are doing any better here... they put the other billboard up just to piss the atheists off.

[reckoner]

Festivus for the rest of us!

[GeeBee]

But can you see how your own views are clouding your judgment here? Someone who is religious and says they talk to god will tell you they know for a fact god exists because they spoke to him. As much as you or I may disagree, or think they are deluding themselves, or that they are misguided, that person is not acknowledging the possibility that god does not exist therefore they are not agnostic. Agnosticism is acknowledging that there is an element of uncertainty. If a person doesn't acknowledge that then they aren't agnostic.

It's like creationists. They deny evolution despite the fact that it is real. That doesn't mean they acknowledge evolution as being a real thing. By your logic, I could tell someone who denies evolution that they actually do believe in evolution, because evolution is real whether they like it or not. But that has nothing to do with whether or not they acknowledge that.

Agnosticism is the assertion that the question is neither known, nor knowable. That assertion is obvious, since in a very real, empirical sense, the existence of deity is neither known, nor knowable. Whether or not someone acknowledges this is beside the point. Evolution-deniers can deny all day, but that doesn't change the empirical fact that they, themselves, are the product of evolution.

EDIT: Also, it's not an "element of uncertainty". It IS uncertainty.

[loveisdead]

The entire point is that I have no suggestion, I don't know. I'm just willing to admit I don't know - which, by definition, takes us away from the black or white answer. Existence itself is philosophically debatable.

This a million.

[Love As Arson]

Well, the date used for Christmas is based on the celebration of a pagan myth. Other than that point, I think the billboard belonging to the atheists is pretty insignificant, insofar as most people will continue to believe what they want; the billboard belonging to the Christians is repetitive because most signs relating to Christmas are already expressing that message, implicitly or otherwise.

[spiffa0]

How is this mockery?

Maybe mockery wasn't the right word. I don't personally agree with going around and telling someone their faith is wrong. And this is coming from someone who doesn't believe in God. I also don't think whoever put up that second billboard did the right thing either. But when people are attacked they feel the need to defend themselves.

[Wasupi]

I don't personally agree with going around and telling someone their faith is wrong.

I also don't think whoever put up that second billboard did the right thing either.

I agree completely with these statements

[GeeBee]

Maybe mockery wasn't the right word. I don't personally agree with going around and telling someone their faith is wrong.
So all proselytizing Christians should come home and just let everyone be, right? Pretending like an atheist billboard = two thousand years of Christian expansionism is disingenuous.

[Joey-Wan Kenobi]

Billboards are annoying. Period. Except for digital ones..theres a local station that shows which song is playing whenever it scrolls to their advert. pretty rad.

[ThatColdPart]

Being intolerant of others is stupid.

[bandnamexmyname]

All Atheists/Christians who make these billboards are equally "wrong". The whole argument is stupid. To each their own.

[sjb2k1]

merry Xmas
http://mibly.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/robot-santa.jpg

[Scrandon]

Damn anti-Christmas propaganda!!

http://solecollector.com/media/u/images/footlocker-wishes-you-a-merry-kicksmas.jpg

[Neo Cassady]

What GREEN beer? How the flying horse fuck is that possible?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Beer_Day

BOOM roasted.

[<*)))><]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Beer_Day

BOOM roasted.
You mean brewed not roasted. But what the fuck Miami University in Oxford,Ohio.

[Neo Cassady]

You mean brewed not roasted. But what the fuck Miami University in Oxford,Ohio.

Are you hatin' on my alma mater, son?

[jawstheme]

I'm not sure if it has been covered in this thread, but are there agnostic billboards? Those would be cool...

[yves.]

With this mindset you must also want "in God we trust" taken off all money. Right?

You may also want to rename Sunday then... just saying.
Why would sunday need to be renamed?

[<*)))><]

Are you hatin' on my alma mater, son?
It is named after a place in Florida in a place named after a place in England and it is in Ohio. That is just really weird.

[Neo Cassady]

It is named after a place in Florida in a place named after a place in England and it is in Ohio. That is just really weird.

Named after England because it was founded as a university town (a la Oxford, Miss.). Named Miami for the Miami tribe, as opposed to Florida's Mayaimi tribe. (I have to explain this a lot, if you couldn't tell).

[JordanBuell]

Why would sunday need to be renamed?

DUh! CUZ IT WORSHIPS THE SUN GOD!!!SUNDAY

[GeeBee]

Being intolerant of others is stupid.
Good thing their stupid ideas and beliefs are still fair game...

[yves.]

DUh! CUZ IT WORSHIPS THE SUN GOD!!!SUNDAY

O YEAH! How'd I manage to miss that?!?!??!?!!!!???!?

[<*)))><]

Named after England because it was founded as a university town (a la Oxford, Miss.). Named Miami for the Miami tribe, as opposed to Florida's Mayaimi tribe. (I have to explain this a lot, if you couldn't tell).
Still sucks to be Ohio, but at least you aren't in Cleveland.

[Neo Cassady]

Still sucks to be Ohio, but at least you aren't in Cleveland.

ysmLA5TqbIY

Really though, parts of Ohio are pretty sweet.

[Kyle Garchar]

I'm an atheist, but I wouldn't want to rename Christmas. For so many people Christmas isn't even about Jesus anymore, it's about family and presents.Uh, you know they're not trying to rename Christmas, they're saying exactly that...Celebrate reason through family and presents. It's not about Jesus, because you know it's a myth....hmmm...

[Kyle Garchar]

And Neo Cassady is a total dick for never hanging out with me. I bet we live no more than 3 miles away!

Just kidding, you're not a dick. Where do you live in Athens, anyways?

[ThatColdPart]

Good thing their stupid ideas and beliefs are still fair game...

So you're going to make fun of someone becuase they believe in something that brings meaning and hope into there lives? I am also an atheist, but I won't bash someones beliefs becuase they think differently. I could somewhat understand if a person is actively shoving there religion down your throat, but this seems rare. To me anyway. If it truly bothers you just smile and ignore them. Just leave them in their own belief system and you can be left in yours.
I think that both sides are wrong on this argument, the atheists should have never put up the billboard in such a condescending fashion. The Christians, on the other hand, should just let the atheists be. There would have then been about $40,000 to go wards a charity to help people rather then some petty argument.

[popdisaster00]

Uh, you know they're not trying to rename Christmas, they're saying exactly that...Celebrate reason through family and presents. It's not about Jesus, because you know it's a myth....hmmm...
Yes I know that. I was answering the question that the OP asked.

[popdisaster00]

But it still implies that you acknowledge an existence of a "Christ". Continuing on using the word "Christmas" when someone doesn't believe in a Jesus Christ makes as much sense to me as someone who gets divorced keeping the last name of the person they divorced--or trying to disassociate the implications of the words "Democracy" and "Republic" from the political party names Democrat and Republican.

I think it almost shows laziness on the part of Atheist.

Regardless of what you think the holiday is about--the fact still is the name is rooted in a religious figure that Atheists believe don't existed. That makes no sense to me why you wouldn't come up with a new name for it then. lol

I think you're being a little ignorant here.

Just because I celebrate Christmas doesn't mean I celebrate Christ, or even acknowledge him as a reason for celebrating. I don't go to church on Christmas, I don't say prayers. I spend time with family, exchange gifts, and eat ham. Do you celebrate the pilgrims on Thanksgiving? Do you sit down and celebrate our presidents on president's day? Do you do anything other than eat candy and dress up and/or party on Thanksgiving? My guess is no.

And by the way, my parents got divorced and my mom kept my dad's name because she spent almost 20 years building a professional reputation with that name. Not to mention the hassle of changing your name on every. single. thing. you belong to, have a subscription to, etc.

Now I wouldn't care if the entire world decided to change the name of Christmas to "Gift Day," but just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I need to acknowledge Christ on December 25th.

[anthony_kid]

True, true, existence is certainly debatable. But for the sake of this debate, I'm simply asserting that there likely IS an answer, that it's either yes/no, while admitting we absolutely are nowhere near being able to ascertain that answer.

You realize that when asking a question as broad as this one, you have to consider many factors, right? These would include questions such as: Is the Islam Allah real, or is there just no god? Is the Christian God real, or is there no god? Are there multiple gods or are there no gods?

You see, when you ask a question such as is there a god? you're actually asking something along the lines of all those questions combined. This makes the question immensely more complex; so complex, in fact, that eliminating the middle ground would eliminate a plethora of answers without giving them equal weight in the question. Therefore, to dumb the answers down to only yes and no is to consider only a fraction of the possibilities which would make your assertion highly ignorant and uneducated.

[caveBEAR]

You realize that when asking a question as broad as this one, you have to consider many factors, right? These would include questions such as: Is the Islam Allah real, or is there just no god? Is the Christian God real, or is there no god? Are there multiple gods or are there no gods?

You see, when you ask a question such as is there a god? you're actually asking something along the lines of all those questions combined. This makes the question immensely more complex; so complex, in fact, that eliminating the middle ground would eliminate a plethora of answers without giving them equal weight in the question. Therefore, to dumb the answers down to only yes and no is to consider only a fraction of the possibilities which would make your assertion highly ignorant and uneducated.

I love it when they make posts like this, and you can smell the self-righteousness just bleeding off of it. The best part is, this tool, as he was writing this, really thought he was opening this Geebee guy's eyes to the complexities of the universe and religion.

:rolleyes:

[JordanBuell]

I love it when they make posts like this, and you can smell the self-righteousness just bleeding off of it. The best part is, this tool, as he was writing this, really thought he was opening this Geebee guy's eyes to the complexities of the universe and religion.

:rolleyes:

It seemed to me that he was well educated and that he has a background in the philosophy of religion.....

[jaimage]

But can you see how your own views are clouding your judgment here? Someone who is religious and says they talk to god will tell you they know for a fact god exists because they spoke to him. As much as you or I may disagree, or think they are deluding themselves, or that they are misguided, that person is not acknowledging the possibility that god does not exist therefore they are not agnostic. Agnosticism is acknowledging that there is an element of uncertainty. If a person doesn't acknowledge that then they aren't agnostic.

It's like creationists. They deny evolution despite the fact that it is real. By your logic, I could tell someone who denies evolution that they actually do believe in evolution, because evolution is real whether they like it or not. But that has nothing to do with whether or not they acknowledge that.

Definitely well said. Though I will say that any true atheist, guided by reason, will not say that there is 100% no God because atheism is guided by logic. While we can say with 99% certainty there is almost definitely no God, you cannot say there absolutely isn't because we cannot disprove God's existence.

"We explain our existence by a combination of the anthropic principle and Darwin's principle of natural selection. That combination provides a complete and deeply satisfying explanation for everything that we see and know. Not only is the god hypothesis unnecessary. It is spectacularly unparsimonious. Not only do we need no God to explain the universe and life. God stands out in the universe as the most glaring of all superfluous sore thumbs. We cannot, of course, disprove God, just as we can't disprove Thor, fairies, leprechauns and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. But, like those other fantasies that we can't disprove, we can say that God is very very improbable." - Richard Dawkins

But really what does this billboard accomplish for the atheists? I don't think someone who is Christian is gonna stop believing just because a billboard told them its not reasonable. It just seems like they were trying to piss people off. Sooooo congratulations... I guess they got what they wanted. . .?

Not saying the Christians are doing any better here... they put the other billboard up just to piss the atheists off.

The Atheist guy said it in the video - they're trying to bring "closet atheists" out of the closet. Which I think is a very good use of time and money. Atheism is a silent majority in this country and it's unfortunate - in a lot of communities people are afraid of religious discourse and "outing" themselves as secular because of how they'll be viewed as a result. I don't think they're trying to convert anyone.

I as an atheist enjoy celebrating Christmas quite a bit. It's a fun cultural ritual to enjoy with family or friends. No need to bring unicorns and fairies into it.

[jessicalynn-xx]

Agnosticism is the assertion that the question is neither known, nor knowable. That assertion is obvious, since in a very real, empirical sense, the existence of deity is neither known, nor knowable. Whether or not someone acknowledges this is beside the point. Evolution-deniers can deny all day, but that doesn't change the empirical fact that they, themselves, are the product of evolution.

EDIT: Also, it's not an "element of uncertainty". It IS uncertainty.

Exactly. And if you don't make that assertion then you aren't agnostic.

[jessicalynn-xx]

Definitely well said. Though I will say that any true atheist, guided by reason, will not say that there is 100% no God because atheism is guided by logic. While we can say with 99% certainty there is almost definitely no God, you cannot say there absolutely isn't because we cannot disprove God's existence.

"We explain our existence by a combination of the anthropic principle and Darwin's principle of natural selection. That combination provides a complete and deeply satisfying explanation for everything that we see and know. Not only is the god hypothesis unnecessary. It is spectacularly unparsimonious. Not only do we need no God to explain the universe and life. God stands out in the universe as the most glaring of all superfluous sore thumbs. We cannot, of course, disprove God, just as we can't disprove Thor, fairies, leprechauns and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. But, like those other fantasies that we can't disprove, we can say that God is very very improbable." - Richard Dawkins.

I agree that most atheists wouldn't say there is 100% no god, but once you get specific, like the Christian god or the Muslim god (arguably the same god but whatever), then I feel like I can absolutely say with 100% certainty that those gods do not exist.

[Machu505]

Billboards have been banned in Vermont and Maine.

Follow their lead, America.

[GeeBee]

So you're going to make fun of someone becuase they believe in something that brings meaning and hope into there lives? I am also an atheist, but I won't bash someones beliefs becuase they think differently. I could somewhat understand if a person is actively shoving there religion down your throat, but this seems rare. To me anyway. If it truly bothers you just smile and ignore them. Just leave them in their own belief system and you can be left in yours.
I think that both sides are wrong on this argument, the atheists should have never put up the billboard in such a condescending fashion. The Christians, on the other hand, should just let the atheists be. There would have then been about $40,000 to go wards a charity to help people rather then some petty argument.
My point was that I can bash ideas without bashing people themselves. If a person is defined by their stupid ideas, that's their problem. But the fact that they revere those ideas doesn't make them immune to criticism.
You realize that when asking a question as broad as this one, you have to consider many factors, right? These would include questions such as: Is the Islam Allah real, or is there just no god? Is the Christian God real, or is there no god? Are there multiple gods or are there no gods?

You see, when you ask a question such as is there a god? you're actually asking something along the lines of all those questions combined. This makes the question immensely more complex; so complex, in fact, that eliminating the middle ground would eliminate a plethora of answers without giving them equal weight in the question. Therefore, to dumb the answers down to only yes and no is to consider only a fraction of the possibilities which would make your assertion highly ignorant and uneducated.
Notice how I said "deity", as that's the ultimate question. You're arguing against points I never made, which makes you seem highly ignorant and uneducated. Thanks for playing, though.
Exactly. And if you don't make that assertion then you aren't agnostic.
That's the whole point...whether you make the assertion or not, you're agnostic, because you DON'T know and you CAN'T know.

[jessicalynn-xx]

That's the whole point...whether you make the assertion or not, you're agnostic, because you DON'T know and you CAN'T know.

Okay.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/2009/12/custom_1259771238517_atheistad.jpg

[anthony_kid]

I love it when they make posts like this, and you can smell the self-righteousness just bleeding off of it. The best part is, this tool, as he was writing this, really thought he was opening this Geebee guy's eyes to the complexities of the universe and religion.

:rolleyes:

Actually, I was pointing out to Geebee why his question isn't the right one in the first place. Thanks for your off-base input, though, I always enjoy reading arrogant responses that are wrong.

[anthony_kid]

Notice how I said "deity", as that's the ultimate question. You're arguing against points I never made, which makes you seem highly ignorant and uneducated. Thanks for playing, though.

*Sigh* Please notice how that's STILL the wrong question. The question should actually be: "Is there any form of a higher power?" This covers the possibility of just about all religious beliefs. More so than if you were to ask if there is one deity. That already eliminates certain answers which I said in my last comment. It's clear that you didn't read it at all otherwise you would have actually known the point of what I posted before making some idiotic statement.

[caveBEAR]

Actually, I was pointing out to Geebee why his question isn't the right one in the first place. Thanks for your off-base input, though, I always enjoy reading arrogant responses that are wrong.

No prob. :ok:

[GeeBee]

*Sigh* Please notice how that's STILL the wrong question. The question should actually be: "Is there any form of a higher power?" This covers the possibility of just about all religious beliefs. More so than if you were to ask if there is one deity. That already eliminates certain answers which I said in my last comment. It's clear that you didn't read it at all otherwise you would have actually known the point of what I posted before making some idiotic statement.
You seem to enjoy having your own argument with yourself, so I don't know why you keep dragging me into it.

Why the fuck "should the question actually be" what you say? Atheism and agnosticism deal with the question of deity. If you don't like that, I'm sorry, but the "higher power" conversation you want to engage in isn't taking place here.

But you can keep attempting to be condescending to people who are obviously far better versed in these things than yourself.

[caveBEAR]

You seem to enjoy having your own argument with yourself, so I don't know why you keep dragging me into it.

Why the fuck "should the question actually be" what you say? Atheism and agnosticism deal with the question of deity. If you don't like that, I'm sorry, but the "higher power" conversation you want to engage in isn't taking place here.

But you can keep attempting to be condescending to people who are obviously far better versed in these things than yourself.

I'm not crazy, right? This kid is a total fucking tool?

[GeeBee]

Ex-mormons get it right:
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php?ACT=41&fid=5&aid=4507_KYlVeRQzYOAIyDFY7uLE&board_id=1

[GeeBee]

I'm not crazy, right? This kid is a total fucking tool?
I'm just perplexed. He's basically arguing that he doesn't like that the question of whether deity exists or not doesn't include the thousands of possible subsets of deity.

It's like he doesn't want to talk about whether aliens exist or not until we establish whether Marvin Martian, Predator, E.T., or Yoda exist. I'm lost.

[caveBEAR]

I'm just perplexed. He's basically arguing that he doesn't like that the question of whether deity exists or not doesn't include the thousands of possible subsets of deity.

It's like he doesn't want to talk about whether aliens exist or not until we establish whether Marvin Martian, Predator, E.T., or Yoda exist. I'm lost.

His argument reminds me of something like this; you and someone are discussing different flavors of pie, their compositions, pros/cons, etc., when, suddenly, someone else comes in and starts quoting you saying 'pie is spelled p-i-e!', to which you agree, and he insists 'P-I-E!! :derpderp:' He feels smart, though, and that's the important thing.

[anthony_kid]

I'm just perplexed. He's basically arguing that he doesn't like that the question of whether deity exists or not doesn't include the thousands of possible subsets of deity.

It's like he doesn't want to talk about whether aliens exist or not until we establish whether Marvin Martian, Predator, E.T., or Yoda exist. I'm lost.

You still don't understand my original statement. Basically, I'm saying that you're saying that a question has a black and white answer when it addresses a situation where that's not the case.

[caveBEAR]

:popcorn:

[GeeBee]

You still don't understand my original statement. Basically, I'm saying that you're saying that a question has a black and white answer when it addresses a situation where that's not the case.
Deity (regardless of which manifestations fit under that label) either exists, or it doesn't. The variety of manifestations does nothing to invalidate the fact that IT EITHER DOES, OR DOES NOT, EXIST.

[sweezy]

i don't give a shit either way

[Scrandon]

*Sigh* Please notice how that's STILL the wrong question. The question should actually be: "Is there any form of a higher power?" This covers the possibility of just about all religious beliefs. More so than if you were to ask if there is one deity. That already eliminates certain answers which I said in my last comment. It's clear that you didn't read it at all otherwise you would have actually known the point of what I posted before making some idiotic statement.
Holy fucking hypothetical semantics!

[GuitarR0cker1]

oOsOb0QRaQs

[jaimage]

I agree that most atheists wouldn't say there is 100% no god, but once you get specific, like the Christian god or the Muslim god (arguably the same god but whatever), then I feel like I can absolutely say with 100% certainty that those gods do not exist.

Agreed.

[bite2brkskn12]

"In Yoda we trust.."?

Eh? That would be pretty cool.
Yoda is someone who we know is a made up character. Nobody is certain whether or not there is a god. I'm a christian but yes I agree that I sometimes doubt God's existance. There is no one on this earth that knows there is definately not a god or that knows there defiantely is a god.

[loveisdead]

Yoda is someone who we know is a made up character. Nobody is certain whether or not there is a god. I'm a christian but yes I agree that I sometimes doubt God's existance. There is no one on this earth that knows there is definately not a god or that knows there defiantely is a god.
There's as much proof for a real yoda as there is a real god.

*definitely

[Jason Tate]

There's as much proof for a real yoda as there is a real god.

*definitely
Heh, there's more proof for Yoda. I saw him on TV. ;)

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

There's more physical evidence of extraterrestrial life than there is of a deity.

[sweezy]

http://apps.blakewalton.com/blog/upload/b/l/blakewalton.com/0aef30372397c455805abd95250e0a6e.gi f

http://www.infiniteunknown.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Michelangelo-Sistine-Chapel-Adam-.jpg


COINCIDENCE? i think not

[mattyrocks]

Yoda is someone who we know is a made up character. Nobody is certain whether or not there is a god. I'm a christian but yes I agree that I sometimes doubt God's existance. There is no one on this earth that knows there is definately not a god or that knows there defiantely is a god.


which is where faith comes in.