Terrorism and Canada

[yeat182]

TORONTO — Toronto (search) is home to one of the largest Islamic communities in North America and is widely regarded as one of the world's most ethnically diverse cities.

But critics charge this tolerant and open society has also created an opening for terrorists who have their sights trained across the border at the United States.

"Al Qaeda (search) is here," said John Thompson, of the Mackenzie Institute (search), a Toronto-based think tank.

A Mackenzie study released last month found 15 of 80 identified international terrorist groups, including those responsible for homicide bombings in Israel, have a presence in Canada.

The report charges Usama bin Laden's terrorist network extends to at least 25 operatives in Canada and included Ahmed Ressam (search), who used America's northern neighbor as a base for his millennium bombing plot. Ressam was convicted for his conspiracy to bomb Los Angeles International Airport in December 1999.

Canada is certainly no stranger to terrorism. Until Sept. 11, 2001, the most deadly case of air terrorism in history originated in that country.

More than 300 people died aboard an Air India flight in 1985 en route from Montreal to Delhi when explosives planted in luggage detonated over the Atlantic Ocean. No one has been convicted in the killings, which remain under investigation.

The Air India bombing case, currently in court in British Columbia, is the Canadian equivalent of the 1989 Pam Am bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland, that killed 259 passengers traveling from Frankfurt to New York and 11 people on the ground.

Despite that history, however, critics say Canada’s open immigration and refugee policies could be creating a safe harbor for terrorists targeting the United States. Potential terrorists could be slipping under the radar of Canadian politicians wary of appearing intolerant, they say.

"It's political correctness. No political figure can really afford to be charged with racism by an interest group," Thompson said.

A senior administration official told Fox News the United States sees potential repercussions of Canada's leniency for security within U.S. borders. The United States needs Canada's cooperation to prevent future terrorist attacks.

And once terrorists make it across Canada's more lenient borders, it's all too easy for them to gain access to the United States, experts say.

"We need to harmonize our visa policies," said Asa Hutchinson, undersecretary for Borders and Transportation Security. "We've had great discussions with them. They have their own relationships with countries and their own policies, and we respect that, but they understand that’s a vulnerability that has to be looked at."

But Canada's solicitor general, the equivalent of the U.S. attorney general, clearly feels otherwise.

"Overall, antiterrorism cooperation with Canada remains excellent …The government of Canada has been a helpful and strong supporter of the United States in the fight against terrorism," according to a statement released from that country in regards to a recent State Department report.

Canadian officials say the Mackenzie report contains a number of inaccuracies, but the author is standing by his work.

"We've been lucky twice. We're lucky Ahmed Ressam did not actually get inside the United States with his load of explosives. We're also very lucky the 9/11 attackers did all directly enter the United States. We might not be lucky a third time," Thompson said.

[WithStamin]

I was in Canada recently and the amount of Muslims just amazed me. It seemed the population was at least 1/3 Muslim. I went into a bank and there were about 3 white people. Even the security guard was Arab (that made me feel safe).

With that huge Islamic population, Canada is bound to have a larger amount of terrorists. Just hope they're up to the task.

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by WithStamin
[BEven the security guard was Arab (that made me feel safe).

[/B]

if that supposed to be sarcasm, than you are the asshole of the century.

[ms y o o n]

Its true. They're everywhere, my school has a lot of islamic people, but i hate the terrorist stereotype.
they spelt Osama's name wrong.

i think this was kind of a stupid article

[Matthew]

What a stupid article.

Anyway, I know this Muslim girl here at camp and her room-mate was Jewish. Am I the only one who thinks that sounds like the set-up for a bad sitcom?

So the Muslim girl signs out on Friday to go to mosque. The camp allows you to sign out and attend a religous sevixe so long as you clear it up with them. So she goes through all the paper-work, and then goes to mosque. She has never been to th one in this city before, and it got out alter tan she thought it would,a nd she comes back abot an hour late. She is "dormed" (you cant leave your room except for classes) for the rest of camp. Finally her mom calls and complains, but she is still dormed for a day.

On Sunday, about 30-40 people miss to go to church. Only a few sign out at all, and they all come abck at different times of day, soem as alte as 2:00 in the afternoon. None of them are punished. What the fuck?

[ms y o o n]

Originally posted by Matthew
What a stupid article.

Anyway, I know this Muslim girl here at camp and her room-mate was Jewish. Am I the only one who thinks that sounds like the set-up for a bad sitcom?

So the Muslim girl signs out on Friday to go to mosque. The camp allows you to sign out and attend a religous sevixe so long as you clear it up with them. So she goes through all the paper-work, and then goes to mosque. She has never been to th one in this city before, and it got out alter tan she thought it would,a nd she comes back abot an hour late. She is "dormed" (you cant leave your room except for classes) for the rest of camp. Finally her mom calls and complains, but she is still dormed for a day.

On Sunday, about 30-40 people miss to go to church. Only a few sign out at all, and they all come abck at different times of day, soem as alte as 2:00 in the afternoon. None of them are punished. What the fuck?

are you serious?
that is ... angers me!! if i was one of the 30-40 people who would miss to go to church, cuz i know i would.. i would complain and say it isn't fair for the muslim girl. or that all 30-40 people should have gotten dormed.
what kind of camp are you at? you and brother.. and you get computers? wow

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by WithStamin
I was in Canada recently and the amount of Muslims just amazed me. It seemed the population was at least 1/3 Muslim. I went into a bank and there were about 3 white people. Even the security guard was Arab (that made me feel safe).

With that huge Islamic population, Canada is bound to have a larger amount of terrorists. Just hope they're up to the task.

Again with the stereotypes. Not every Islamic person is a terrorist. It seems diversity is now everyone's biggest fear.

[Matthew]

Originally posted by krazee_k0rean
are you serious?
that is ... angers me!! if i was one of the 30-40 people who would miss to go to church, cuz i know i would.. i would complain and say it isn't fair for the muslim girl. or that all 30-40 people should have gotten dormed.
what kind of camp are you at? you and brother.. and you get computers? wow

its a debate camp (man im such a geeK), or technically a "speech" camp. im not actually working on debate, im writing a speech and preapring an acting selection. and the CPU's are public access, but yeah, ic an usually get to one.

[BrandNewDream]

Originally posted by Matthew
its a debate camp (man im such a geeK), or technically a "speech" camp. im not actually working on debate, im writing a speech and preapring an acting selection. and the CPU's are public access, but yeah, ic an usually get to one.

Dude! fucking sweet! I'm actually pretty jealous.

[theused_FSF]

i once killed a rampaging moose with my bare hands

[Ronin]

As of this post, I'm finished with the politics forum.

A terrorist is holding a gun to my head and making me type this.

You know how it is in my terrorist filled country.

They call us little Libya.

(Brandnewrock saying that philosophy was useless is the cause)

[WithStamin]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
Again with the stereotypes. Not every Islamic person is a terrorist. It seems diversity is now everyone's biggest fear. And exactly how many of the 9-11 hijackers were Muslim? How many 75 year old white women do you see leading terrorist training camps? You're right in saying that now all Muslims are terrorists, but I'll bet my left ball that there is a greater proportion of Muslims who are terrorists than all other religions.

[open mind]

Originally posted by WithStamin
And exactly how many of the 9-11 hijackers were Muslim? How many 75 year old white women do you see leading terrorist training camps? You're right in saying that now all Muslims are terrorists, but I'll bet my left ball that there is a greater proportion of Muslims who are terrorists than all other religions.
while you may be right in saying that there are more terrorists who follow islam than other religions terrorism hasn't been monopolized by them.
right now i can think of the IRA the KKK the groups that timothy mcvey and eric rudulph were a part of, the catholic church and although i don't know the names off the top of my head i know there's been a bunch in latin america most of which i believe were or are prominently cristian in their faiths.
it seems to me that at least some of these groups showed muslims that terrorism can work in there favor.
also i don't believe terrorism is only bombs going off and people being shot, to me it's also widespread repression and censorship or anything else that makes people afraid to speak out.maybe in that respect americans and their new found "patriotism" has more terrorists
or maybe i'm full of shit you tell me what ya think i'm just a newbie.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by Ronin
As of this post, I'm finished with the politics forum.

A terrorist is holding a gun to my head and making me type this.

You know how it is in my terrorist filled country.

They call us little Libya.

(Brandnewrock saying that philosophy was useless is the cause)

And a voice of reason leaves the scene.....I'm sorry to see you go man.:(

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by open mind

also i don't believe terrorism is only bombs going off and people being shot, to me it's also widespread repression and censorship or anything else that makes people afraid to speak out.


I totally agree with that.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by WithStamin
And exactly how many of the 9-11 hijackers were Muslim? How many 75 year old white women do you see leading terrorist training camps? You're right in saying that now all Muslims are terrorists, but I'll bet my left ball that there is a greater proportion of Muslims who are terrorists than all other religions.

And how many of them were there overall? 20? Maybe 30? That's such a HUGE proportion of the entire Muslim population. I'm way to lazy to look up the estimates on Al-Quaeda's total membership, but I'm pretty sure the majority of Muslim's (especially the westernized Canadian ones) are not terrorists. And hell, just because a guy is Arab, doesn't mean that he's Muslim. Sharif Rachid, one of my friends, is Lutheran. Faith isn't always directly correlated with race.

[evil zach]

Sometimes I wonder why I continue to post here. If I wanted to hang around racist fucks I'd go to the heritage front message board. I've seen less bias news pieces come out of the Nazi Times (aka national post) and the National Socialist Daily (aka globe and mail). If you are going to catagorize all muslims as terrorists, then you must also catagorize all protestanst, anglo-saxons, catholics, italians (who are also [usualy] catholic so they are a double threat!), as terrorists. All Russians are communists, all tenagers are druken glue huffers, all blacks are in gangs, all punks shoot smack, etc, etc, etc. See kids, mass generalizations are fun!

Now before you say "blah blah blah, all of the 9/11 hijackers wer muslim, blah blah blah" I say to you: how many of the people who bomb abortion clinics are Christian? How many neo-nazi's who commit hate crimes (before we start that argument again, a hate crime is one commited for racial reasons) are white? You people make me sick.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by evil zach
Sometimes I wonder why I continue to post here. If I wanted to hang around racist fucks I'd go to the heritage front message board. I've seen less bias news pieces come out of the Nazi Times (aka national post) and the National Socialist Daily (aka globe and mail). If you are going to catagorize all muslims as terrorists, then you must also catagorize all protestanst, anglo-saxons, catholics, italians (who are also [usualy] catholic so they are a double threat!), as terrorists. All Russians are communists, all tenagers are druken glue huffers, all blacks are in gangs, all punks shoot smack, etc, etc, etc. See kids, mass generalizations are fun!

Now before you say "blah blah blah, all of the 9/11 hijackers wer muslim, blah blah blah" I say to you: how many of the people who bomb abortion clinics are Christian? How many neo-nazi's who commit hate crimes (before we start that argument again, a hate crime is one commited for racial reasons) are white? You people make me sick.

Well said, and totally agreed.

[bossydacow]

Zach is totally right. But I don't want him to leave. Especially now since Ronin's gone.

[evil zach]

The article makes it out to be as if canada is flooded with terrorists. It is nothing more the right wing propaganda.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by cal1082
Why is this a stupid article? All it says is that terrorists such as Al-Qaeda are in Canada. Why wouldnt they be? It's very reasonable to go to their first, if they wanted to get into the U.S. Our borders between Canada and U.S are pretty light. The article's not accusing Canada of harboring terrrorists, it just says with their diverse cities it's easy for them to go there and not be bothered.

It's stupid because it supports the whole "cowboys and indians" version of combating terrorism. The best way to fight terrorism is not give the people a reason to hate us, by not unjustly invading the Middle East, and according them the same rights as U.S. citizens in the case of the prisoners in Camp X-ray. If we present ourselves as a fair, open-minded nation, instead of a bunch of evil douche bags the fire will go out of terrorists in a few generations, and permanently die out. The "war on terrorism" is ineffective, and is only making the terrorists more angry. Even if it causes them to hide for a few years, they'll emerge eventually with a new cause.

Sure, I'll admit that if we're somewhat open-minded an lax like this some attacks will occur, but the lives lost are insignificant compared to the permanent greater good achieved at the end of the road.

[NOFXdesendents5]

I don't give a shit if your Muslim or not, if you come into my country and try to blow shit up, Im gonna run you down with a car.

And you can't dorm 30-40 people, you can dorm a single person. Like at school, we had protests, I was at the war rally (countering the protest) and the teachers didn't get involved until there were a few people left. It's numbers not religion you conspiracy dumbasses.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by NOFXdesendents5
I don't give a shit if your Muslim or not, if you come into my country and try to blow shit up, Im gonna run you down with a car.

And you can't dorm 30-40 people, you can dorm a single person. Like at school, we had protests, I was at the war rally (countering the protest) and the teachers didn't get involved until there were a few people left. It's numbers not religion you conspiracy dumbasses.

1.)How do you know if someone's going to blow something up or not? Most people use stereotypes.

2.)She shouldn't have been dormed because she didn't realize the service was longer than she expected. That's just stupid. And probably subconcious religious discrimination. It is Texas after all.

[evil zach]

The war on terrorism is absolutly useless. It won't solve anything. It will just give people who already hated the western world even more reason to hate it. Its just a temporary solution. I garuntee that in the next 25 years terrorist attacks against america will occure that will make september 11th look like a picnic. When will you people learn that violence just begets more violence? Its been proven over and over again, yet you are still asking the same questions. "What do they have against us? All we did was bomb the bejesus out of their villages and kill their children. All we did was try to assimilate them into american culture. Whats so wrong about that?" But insted of going for the obvious answer that if you want acts of terrorism against america to stop, then to stop commiting acts of state terrorism against others, you use violence, and the cycle continues.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by cal1082
So would you rather have seen the American gov. not do anything after the Sept. 11th attacks?

Uhhhh....yeah. Or did you miss the point of the "violence on violence" philosophy?

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by cal1082
Are we reading the same article? All the article says is that there are terrorist groups in Canda and America is worried about it because it's easy for these groups to get into America from Canada. I dont understand what your talking about when you say the article is stupid?

Which implies America wants to "combat terrorism" in Canada, stupid idea.

[NOFXdesendents5]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
Uhhhh....yeah. Or did you miss the point of the "violence on violence" philosophy? \

oh sorry! i didn't know you hippies wanted us to just wait here and while our entire country's population is wiped out.

and thats what you guys don't understand. im glad that i am conservative cause i have the freedom to say what i want and state the facts without any feel-good sugar coating. and heres the straight ass facts:

There are a number of Muslim factions out there that want to kill all of the Americans. Not just blow up a sedan here, burn a building there, they want to kill country of America's economy, and then it's people. Its not all Muslims, so we can't just invade any country in the world and take over Toronto because of the religion there, but it is a minority of the Muslim population that wants us dead. Not for us to change or policies, but to die.

While you Democrats let yourself be killed, I think I will defend myself thank you very much.

[evil zach]

Originally posted by cal1082
Not do anything??????? That's the stupidest thing i've heard, we lost 3,000 or so people on that day for no reason. What gives terrorists the right to do that? Should America throw up are hands and say,

"Sorry, i didnt realize you Al-Qaeda members felt the way you did. We'll clean up these 2 buildings you blew up and pick out what bodies we can identify, and we'll change our policies to suit you better."

I'm sorry but that's complete bull shit. What did America do to deserve getting bombed on Sept. 11th. You explain to me the actions that deserved those actions?
And how many other lives have been lost at the hands of americans? You always negelect to mention that.
Why the attacks happend and what the US did to desrve tem are 2 diferent questiions. They did nothing to deserve them. Nobody deserves something like that. But the reason they happend was because of actions of state terrorism commited by the US. It had nothing to do with al-queda hating freedom, no matter how much Bu$hie and his friends would like to tell you that.

[evil zach]

Originally posted by NOFXdesendents5
\

oh sorry! i didn't know you hippies wanted us to just wait here and while our entire country's population is wiped out.

and thats what you guys don't understand. im glad that i am conservative cause i have the freedom to say what i want and state the facts without any feel-good sugar coating. and heres the straight ass facts:

There are a number of Muslim factions out there that want to kill all of the Americans. Not just blow up a sedan here, burn a building there, they want to kill country of America's economy, and then it's people. Its not all Muslims, so we can't just invade any country in the world and take over Toronto because of the religion there, but it is a minority of the Muslim population that wants us dead. Not for us to change or policies, but to die.

While you Democrats let yourself be killed, I think I will defend myself thank you very much.
Ok, first off, YOU arn't defending anything. Rather the government is sending the poor to do the defending for them.
Secondly there are a number of white, protestant factions out there that just want to kill anybody who isn't white and protestant. But what is being done about them? Absolutly nothing. You want "the straight ass facts"? The war on terror is nothing more then a crusade against Islam.

[evil zach]

If you want terrorism to end, stop contributing to it. its that simple. The terrorists want the US to bomb foregn nations, so then they have rational to commit acts of terror against the US.

[evil zach]

If you want terrorism to end, stop contributing to it. its that simple. The terrorists want the US to bomb foregn nations, so then they have rational to commit acts of terror against the US.

[Matthew]

Originally posted by NOFXdesendents5

And you can't dorm 30-40 people, you can dorm a single person. Like at school, we had protests, I was at the war rally (countering the protest) and the teachers didn't get involved until there were a few people left. It's numbers not religion you conspiracy dumbasses.

So if you do something wrong its ok as long as you convince a bunch of people to go along with it? Might makes right? Figures a conservative would say that.

And as for your "hippie" comments... pacifism isnt leading to the death of our people. Belligerence is. The more we kill, the more our own people will die. Its that simple. You are perpetuating a cycle of intolerance and destruction every time you think you are being "politcally bold" or " so honest it hurts" by makign some ignorant comemnt about another race.

Where the hell do you get of saying the Muslim population wants us dead? You even admitted its a small minority group, so why do we ahve to be belligerent and suspicious to all Muslims? All of your "straight out facts" are nothing but intolerant and aggresive opinions based soley on stereotypes and propaganda.

Do you honestly think this macho charade of aggression the USA has thown at the the mUslim world has deceased hostility? Do you think youa re safer ebcause some kid in Iraq had his mom killed by a bomb? Did overthrowing the Talibaan and then ditching the country into chaos really decrease the chance that you are going to be killed in an exploding building? There is no such thing as safety, and the shit you have justified in your own "defense" is horrible.

I hope to hell you die because some radical white supremacist group burns down your house, or you get thrown in jail for 6 months under some fascist patriot act. Hows that for not "sugarcoating"?

I dont want to WIN the war I want to END the war. Tehre is a difference, and you conservatives need to put down your rifles and relaize that before its too late.

[Matthew]

Originally posted by cal1082
If we did nothing to deserve it why shouldnt we defend ourselves? I believe the main reason they dont like us is because they dont want us in the middle east. Does that warrant the Sept. 11th attack? No, does the Sept. 11th attack warrant us defending ourselves and striking back? Yes.

Wait, so what your saying is that

1 - USA goes into the middle east, bombing, killing, overthrowing, etc.

2- The Midle East retaliates w/ 9/11.

3 - this is unjustified.


BUT

1 - The Middle East atatcks the USA on 9/11

2- The USA retaliates with more bombing, killing, and overthrowing.

3 - This is justified.


I think that both are unjustifed. Why is it that one is ok with you?

And now, In Iraq alone, the US has killed about 3,000 civilians. When was the last time you heard the figure "3,000 civilian deaths" kicked around on the news?

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you."
--Friedrich Nietzche

[Matthew]

Originally posted by cal1082
You can end the war by winning the war.

No, it is impossible to end a war in that manner, unless you intend to systematically hunt down and kill every person who has ever breathed a word of opposition to yourself.

Look at it this way. If a man has a slave he is able to keep that slave in check by his authority. Whether the slave is right or wrong, he is a slave and he must submit. But ill will will still reside in the slave, and he may attempt to kill hsi amster or avnge himself in another way. If the master sets the slave free than the slave will have the capability to kill the master more easily, but not the will.

[NOFXdesendents5]

Originally posted by cal1082
When were we going into the middle east bombing, killing, and overthrowing? Before the first world trade center bombing.

Exactly! Before now, our airliners would be hijacked and blown-up and that dumbshit Reagan would sit on his ass and claim "i don't negotiate with terrorists" and deal weapons to countries.

Finally, now, after all of this killing, we do something. And we get protests.

I think you guys are right too. I mean, violence only makes revenge, but the terrorists don't share the peaceful mentality. They want all Americans dead, thats why its called a Jihad. A "holy war"(although few Muslims believe in it) that is basically a desire for full extermination.

I plan to eventually serve in the Armed Forces so I can defend America so we don't have another September 11, and I agree with Zach, the terrorists are probably cooking up something big other there. When they stop attacking us and our allies, then the US should stop dropping bombs into countries and hoping that we are killing terrorists because the CIA sucks nowadays....

[Matthew]

Originally posted by cal1082
When were we going into the middle east bombing, killing, and overthrowing? Before the first world trade center bombing.

There was this thing called Desert Storm. And before that our oil companies supported a tyrannical ruler in Iran who was opposed by the majority of the Iranians.

In Indeonesia, our WAR ON TERROR is giving funing to a miltary that is reputed for crimes against humanity, including the burning of entire villages who oppsoe the state. But because they are so brutal to uprisers (which include cells that have been linked to terroist groups) the USA continues to fund them.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
And how many of them were there overall? 20? Maybe 30? That's such a HUGE proportion of the entire Muslim population. I'm way to lazy to look up the estimates on Al-Quaeda's total membership, but I'm pretty sure the majority of Muslim's (especially the westernized Canadian ones) are not terrorists. And hell, just because a guy is Arab, doesn't mean that he's Muslim. Sharif Rachid, one of my friends, is Lutheran. Faith isn't always directly correlated with race.

the point he is making isn't that 100% of muslims are terrorists, but that 100% of al-qaeda is muslim....you are twisting the arguement to make him appear as if he is a racist or something when in fact he is simply pointing out a fact.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by evil zach
The article makes it out to be as if canada is flooded with terrorists. It is nothing more the right wing propaganda.

the article states that Canada's lax immigration policy and poorly defended borders, coupled with its large muslim population, have made it a potential hotbed for terrorism. lets not forget that some of the 9-11 terrorists gained access to the US through Canada...and reasonable person that reads this article will see this, but you are probably right, there will be some morons that misinterpret the whole thing.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
It's stupid because it supports the whole "cowboys and indians" version of combating terrorism. The best way to fight terrorism is not give the people a reason to hate us, by not unjustly invading the Middle East, and according them the same rights as U.S. citizens in the case of the prisoners in Camp X-ray. If we present ourselves as a fair, open-minded nation, instead of a bunch of evil douche bags the fire will go out of terrorists in a few generations, and permanently die out. The "war on terrorism" is ineffective, and is only making the terrorists more angry. Even if it causes them to hide for a few years, they'll emerge eventually with a new cause.

Sure, I'll admit that if we're somewhat open-minded an lax like this some attacks will occur, but the lives lost are insignificant compared to the permanent greater good achieved at the end of the road.

first of all, they already hate us and that isn't going to change just because we don't fight back. secondly, i love how you claim we are a bunch of "evil douche bags" when the people you are defending flew 3 planes into buildings, killing innocent people, crashed a 4th plane, blew a hole in the side of a US destroyer, and destroyed 2 US embassies, killing hundreds of innocent African citizens who had nothing to do with any of it.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by evil zach
Ok, first off, YOU arn't defending anything. Rather the government is sending the poor to do the defending for them.


there you go sterotyping people...

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Matthew
Wait, so what your saying is that

1 - USA goes into the middle east, bombing, killing, overthrowing, etc.



when did this happen prior to 9/11?

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Matthew
No, it is impossible to end a war in that manner, unless you intend to systematically hunt down and kill every person who has ever breathed a word of opposition to yourself.



that isn't true at all, after WWII we ENDED the war with Japan because we WON, there we didn't hunt down every japanese citizen and kill them, we helped rebuild their nation, and their economy. their hatered of america ended shortly after the war and now they are a major ally and world power.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Matthew
There was this thing called Desert Storm. And before that our oil companies supported a tyrannical ruler in Iran who was opposed by the majority of the Iranians.



Desert Storm was a war started by a middle eastern nation and the US along with the UN was asked to protect another middle eastern nation as well as free an occupied middle eastern nation. we didn't go in there looking to start a fight, we were asked by our allies to protect them, and we did, and we were asked, being that we were the only super power capable of doing the job, to free kuwait. and we did. that war wasn't our fault, we didn't started and we only got involved to protect a middle eastern nation.

[evil zach]

Originally posted by yeat182
there you go sterotyping people...
Most of the people in the military use it as a means to escape poverty

[WithStamin]

Originally posted by evil zach
Most of the people in the military use it as a means to escape poverty How do you know? I've never seen any statistics saying that.

[theused_FSF]

i had sex with a deer



we spawned a race of people deer that live in northern canada

[yeat182]

Originally posted by evil zach
Most of the people in the military use it as a means to escape poverty

most but not all, just like most terrorists are islamic, but not all....

[open mind]

Originally posted by cal1082
If we did nothing to deserve it why shouldnt we defend ourselves? I believe the main reason they dont like us is because they dont want us in the middle east. Does that warrant the Sept. 11th attack? No, does the Sept. 11th attack warrant us defending ourselves and striking back? Yes.
not saying that the terrorists were right or anything but think of it like this if someone breaks into your house and slowly goes about looting your house then when you politely ask them to leave you get the guy telling you to go back to sleep do you have the right to shoot him?

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by NOFXdesendents5
\

oh sorry! i didn't know you hippies wanted us to just wait here and while our entire country's population is wiped out.

and thats what you guys don't understand. im glad that i am conservative cause i have the freedom to say what i want and state the facts without any feel-good sugar coating. and heres the straight ass facts:

There are a number of Muslim factions out there that want to kill all of the Americans. Not just blow up a sedan here, burn a building there, they want to kill country of America's economy, and then it's people. Its not all Muslims, so we can't just invade any country in the world and take over Toronto because of the religion there, but it is a minority of the Muslim population that wants us dead. Not for us to change or policies, but to die.

While you Democrats let yourself be killed, I think I will defend myself thank you very much.

More people die in car accidents every year than died as a result of terrorism. There are 280 million people in the United States. I find it very hard to believe that one terrorist group has the means to wipe out an entire country in the time period it would take for their hatred to be lost due to a policy change in the US.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by yeat182
that isn't true at all, after WWII we ENDED the war with Japan because we WON, there we didn't hunt down every japanese citizen and kill them, we helped rebuild their nation, and their economy. their hatered of america ended shortly after the war and now they are a major ally and world power.

These are terrorists we're talking about, not a particular nation. The Japanese hated us not because we did anything to them, but because it was convenient at the time for their current political alliances. It's impossible to "win" a war against terrorists in the convential sense, because even if you exterminate every terrorist group, a few generations later, a radical will say "look at this injustice and hypocrisy the Bush administration commited during their war on terrorism" and form his own group and start killing again. If you change the blatantly anti-Islamic policies, then you stop giving them reason to hate you, and you END the war.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by cal1082
I actually agree this is a war that you can't definetly win. On the other hand, we can significantly hurt their fund raising, their ability to train terrorists, and their ability to function in general. By doing this we could save many lives.

I think we'll save more lives in the long run with the semi-pacifistic manner. Call me callous, because we may lose life at first, after all these terrorists have been brainwashed, but that will only last out maybe one generation, and terrorism will slowly die out, eliminating the threat compleltly.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by cal1082
You're probably right, we just need to give into there every wish

Placation is a perfectly valid strategy, especially in dealing with an enemy like this.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by NOFXdesendents5
When they stop attacking us and our allies, then the US should stop dropping bombs into countries and hoping that we are killing terrorists because the CIA sucks nowadays....

Why can't we be the bigger person and put down our gun first?

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by cal1082
So we should leave the middle east completely, and then stop supporting Israel? These are 2 of the main things we would have to do.

I actually think that the Israeli's are in the wrong.

They are both in the wrong for using violence, but the Palestinians were forced out of their homes that they had been in for over a millenia. What are they supposed to do? Just leave? You can't base policy off of religious doctrine. It doesn't work. We wouldn't have to become neutral, helping both sides reach a peaceful agreement would help, but now we are choosing sides, something that is pissing them off big time. As far as leaving the middle east completley, is there really any reason to have anything beyond an embassy over there? Once we move beyond fossil fuels(an advancement I hope is coming soon) we won't need oil from that place anymore. Why be there at all? It's just pissing people off.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by cal1082
We are fairly neutral in it, except for the fact we believe Israel should be allowed to exist as a country. Besides that we are fairly neutral


I'm not to familiar with the Bush admin's policy on this, but do they support the creation of a Palestinian state? The last I heard they were condemning Palestine, treating it almost like a terrorist organization instead of a country.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by cal1082
What does Al Qaeda Want?

http://www.rallyforamerica.org/faq/goals4.html

Very interesting, but I still stick by the fact that the "war against terrorism" is only fueling fire for future terrorists, and cannot be won.

[Ronin]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
I'm not to familiar with the Bush admin's policy on this, but do they support the creation of a Palestinian state? The last I heard they were condemning Palestine, treating it almost like a terrorist organization instead of a country.

http://www.satirewire.com/briefs/belgium.shtml

Bush's middle east policy
(I swear I'm done now)

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by Ronin
http://www.satirewire.com/briefs/belgium.shtml

Bush's middle east policy
(I swear I'm done now)

Thanks man.
(I won't tell anyone)

P.S. That was really funny!

[WithStamin]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
I'm not to familiar with the Bush admin's policy on this, but do they support the creation of a Palestinian state? Yes, he does. Find more about it here. (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/mideast/)(you need to click the road map explainer).

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
Placation is a perfectly valid strategy, especially in dealing with an enemy like this.

that assumes that they'll stop once you give in to their demands, and ignores the possilbility that they will simply feel suddenly powerful, and come up with more demands...

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
IThey are both in the wrong for using violence, but the Palestinians were forced out of their homes that they had been in for over a millenia.

so were the jews...

[evil zach]

Originally posted by yeat182
that assumes that they'll stop once you give in to their demands, and ignores the possilbility that they will simply feel suddenly powerful, and come up with more demands...
The last thing terrorist organizations like hammas want is palestinian liberation. Then they have no reasons for suicide bombings and other terrorist acts against isrealis. As it is right now, they are conciderd to be freedom fighters by many palestinians, but once palestine is granted freedom, the just become criminals.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by yeat182
so were the jews...

How would you feel if someone showed up at your house, said "The Bible says this is my land" and told you to move?

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
How would you feel if someone showed up at your house, said "The Bible says this is my land" and told you to move?

it was actually your all mighty UN that told the palestians to move out of the more barren areas of israel/palestine, which were then granted to the Jewish population, not the bible...........

[NOFXdesendents5]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
it was actually your all mighty UN that told the palestians to move out of the more barren areas of israel/palestine, which were then granted to the Jewish population, not the bible...........

schooled.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
How would you feel if someone showed up at your house, said "The Bible says this is my land" and told you to move?

how would you like it if you tried to live peacefully in other countries but were nearly exterminated from the face of the earth because of intense anti-semetic hatred? and then when you were finally given back your ancestral lands you were only to be threatened by extermination again due to your religious beliefs?

not only that, but the jews have as much a historical claim to the land as the palestinians

[evil zach]

At the risk of sounding overly anal, Muslims are also traditonal semetic. jews are just one of the semetic people

[yeat182]

Originally posted by evil zach
At the risk of sounding overly anal, Muslims are also traditonal semetic. jews are just one of the semetic people


my bad, but you get my point

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by yeat182
how would you like it if you tried to live peacefully in other countries but were nearly exterminated from the face of the earth because of intense anti-semetic hatred? and then when you were finally given back your ancestral lands you were only to be threatened by extermination again due to your religious beliefs?

not only that, but the jews have as much a historical claim to the land as the palestinians

Yeah, but the palestinian's are there right now, and have been for longer than the U.S. has been around. Sure, I feel sorry for the Jews becuase they've been persecuted, but that doesn't mean they can just kick the Palestinians out.

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
Yeah, but the palestinian's are there right now, and have been for longer than the U.S. has been around. Sure, I feel sorry for the Jews becuase they've been persecuted, but that doesn't mean they can just kick the Palestinians out.
So that means that the Palestinians can just blow people up until the Jews decide to back down? It goes both ways man.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
So that means that the Palestinians can just blow people up until the Jews decide to back down? It goes both ways man.

True, but we shouldn't have sympathy for one side or the other. The Israelis have fired into civilian crowds. Both sides are equally guilty. Both sides need to learn how to share.

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
True, but we shouldn't have sympathy for one side or the other. The Israelis have fired into civilian crowds. Both sides are equally guilty. Both sides need to learn how to share.
Right. That'll happen. Same with anarchy.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
Right. That'll happen. Same with anarchy.

Hahahahah. Let me be the idealist. You're the pragmatist. We need both sides for the debate. Same with left and right. Pluralism man, it's all about the pluralism.

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
Hahahahah. Let me be the idealist. You're the pragmatist. We need both sides for the debate. Same with left and right. Pluralism man, it's all about the pluralism.
How about we spin it in my favor. You are a romanticist and I am a realist. Sound good? Good. I have to go now, we'll debate later. Dickhead:D

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
How about we spin it in my favor. You are a romanticist and I am a realist. Sound good? Good. I have to go now, we'll debate later. Dickhead:D

Penis breath:)

[evil zach]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
Right. That'll happen. Same with anarchy.
Anarchy has already happend (ie. Paris Commune, Spanish Revoultion [not to be confused with the civil war]). By that logic the Isrealis and palestinians will learn to share

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by evil zach
Anarchy has already happend (ie. Paris Commune, Spanish Revoultion [not to be confused with the civil war]). By that logic the Isrealis and palestinians will learn to share
and also by that logic, the sharing will be unsuccesful and short lived

[evil zach]

They were both corrupted from the out side. So lets put this into the context of the spanish revolution. The most succseful example of Anarchy in action. The spanish workers would be the isrealis and the palestians. Francos forces would be all other parties who chose sides. If you eliminate them then it will work. The great thing about history is that it allows us to learn from our mistakes

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by evil zach
They were both corrupted from the out side. So lets put this into the context of the spanish revolution. The most succseful example of Anarchy in action. The spanish workers would be the isrealis and the palestians. Francos forces would be all other parties who chose sides. If you eliminate them then it will work. The great thing about history is that it allows us to learn from our mistakes
and thats exactly why we should take military action against NK

[evil zach]

do you care to elaborate?

[trogdor]

Why would military action be necessary? They dont pose any immediate threat to the US, and they havent actually attacked anybody aside border skirmishes. I dont think theres any reason for us to become involved.

[WithStamin]

Originally posted by trogdor
Why would military action be necessary? They dont pose any immediate threat to the US, and they havent actually attacked anybody aside border skirmishes. I dont think theres any reason for us to become involved. I can see how you would say that Iraq poses no threat immediately, but saying NK poses no threat is rediculous. They have nuclear weapons and a missle that can deliver them (it's untested though). I'd say that's a fairly immediate threat.

[Charlito Cafe]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
and thats exactly why we should take military action against NK

That makes PERFECT sense :confused:

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by Charlito Cafe
That makes PERFECT sense :confused: yeah, zach said to learn from history, with anarchy and all. and i said, learn from history with japan and all....

[yeat182]

Originally posted by trogdor
Why would military action be necessary? They dont pose any immediate threat to the US, and they havent actually attacked anybody aside border skirmishes. I dont think theres any reason for us to become involved.

they do pose a threat to the US, they have missles capable of hitting not only our allies in the region, but also the western most US and our US territories. now those missle may be able to be equipt with their nukes that they are in the process of developing, making them a serious threat.

[evil zach]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
yeah, zach said to learn from history, with anarchy and all. and i said, learn from history with japan and all....
The circumstances concerning Japan and NK are quite diferent

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by evil zach
The circumstances concerning Japan and NK are quite diferent
of course its not a carbon copy, but they both threatened the US, they both are unsurrendurous (my new word), and both are crazy. they have no regard for any thing other than themselves and their country. what happened last time? good bye thousands of lives as well as half of the navy.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
of course its not a carbon copy, but they both threatened the US, they both are unsurrendurous (my new word), and both are crazy. they have no regard for any thing other than themselves and their country. what happened last time? good bye thousands of lives as well as half of the navy.

i wouldn't say there the same in that there unsurrendurous (?), most, if not all, normal citizens have nothing to gain from the oppression that communism thrusts apon them, and i'd be willing to bet that onces the government in NK is taken out, the people will be more then happy, and glad to see them go........

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
i wouldn't say there the same in that there unsurrendurous (?), most, if not all, normal citizens have nothing to gain from the oppression that communism thrusts apon them, and i'd be willing to bet that onces the government in NK is taken out, the people will be more then happy, and glad to see them go........
I am simply talking military and goverment, sort of the same thing over there, but we have asked them countless times to turn of the nuclear stuff and been refused every time. If we were to be diplomatic about this, the standoff could go on for decades, military involvement is the only way to end the standoff, its that simple, its a harsh bit of truth which no body wants to happen, but thats life.