Ronin
07/15/03, 02:24 PM
Just to clear the air about my hiatus from the politics forum.
I’m not leaving because I can’t deal with an argument. I think if you ask most of the people here, I’m completely the opposite.
The reasons that I’m leaving the politics forum are;
a) The random, yet frequent, asinine posts. Every now and then, someone says something that completely shakes my faith in the North American school system. To discuss these issues, you have to maintain a certain level of intellect. Now I don’t mean that you need an IQ of 150, but you at least need to examine the facts and present your opinion in a decent manner. People make ridiculous blanket statements about races, nationalities, and political groups that couldn’t be taken seriously by Forrest Gump. This stuff has really started to bug me. Just because it’s your opinion does not make it an immutable truth that trumps any argument.
Just because I’m against the war in Iraq does not mean that I’m a fucking hippy. I’m not against war; I’m against needless war (which Iraq was, IN MY OPINION). Does this mean that I eat granola? Am I wearing Birkenstocks? This is just an example of a type of reasoning that rears its ugly head in this forum. The general forum is rife with this stuff, but it doesn’t belong here.
b) The same 5 topics are being argued here, over and over again, ad naseuem. These topics are;
- The war in Iraq (and through this, criticism or boosting of George W)
- Abortion
- Affirmative Action
- Gay rights
- Democrats/Republicans suck ass because ____________
These are obviously important social issues, at the forefront of political discussion, but there are OTHER topics that can and should be discussed. Every now and then someone will start a discussion on a new, different issue, but 9 times out of 10, the thread either gets ignored, or the argument somehow mutates into one of the above 5. I just can’t stand to read the same cyclic arguments over and over, it’s reminiscent of fights with my ex-girlfriend.
c) The “Us vs. Them” mentality. This is my biggest problem. For example, when anyone calls Zach or me a Democrat, I could scream. We’re CANADIAN, so you would call us a LIBERAL, though I’m definitely not a liberal, and I would bet my life that Zach isn’t either. The world of politics isn’t black and white like that.
People in this forum are constantly grouped into “democrat/republican” or “right wing/left wing”. People cannot be so easily grouped, we’re individuals. Intelligent people do not subscribe to all of the tenets laid down by a certain political group based on faith; they examine the issues and come to conclusions of their own. By grouping people like this, you’re assigning values to them that they may not hold. According to our chart, Justin_stacy is a libertarian. Does that mean he believes in everything contained within their political doctrine? I seriously doubt it. Do I suscribe to every left wing theory? Fuck no, I can make my mind up for myself, I don’t need my morals dictated to me.
This type of adversarial discussion will never go anywhere. If you just bitch at left-wing “hippies” or right-wing “corporate puppets”, you’ll solve nothing. A forum is for DISCUSSION. You present your point of view on a topic, and other people further discuss your views, and present their own. D-I-S-C-U-S-S-I-O-N, not fighting. You want to solve social problems? Resolve your blind irrational hatred for the opposite side.
You cannot tell me that your views are RIGHT, because that’s just not the way this works. You may have a much sounder argument, but where is the acid test to prove you right? Where can I measure the level of “human-ness” in a foetus to determine EXACTLY when it becomes a person? Where can I find a definition of “person” that everyone agrees with? Where is the “moral meter” that tells us who’s fighting for freedom, and who’s trying to oppress? Did that argument score a 9 on the meter? Oh, well I guess that abortion IS wrong. We aren’t arguing about the chemical composition of carbon dioxide, there is no concrete answer. We are not about to arrive at an ultimate truth
The point of this forum should be to openly discuss issues in an enlightened matter. People have raised good points on here that have made me consider my standpoint on certain issues. Frankly, I’m a little more against affirmative action than I used to be. People raised some good points, I checked more of it out for myself, and I came to a conclusion of my own.
I need to say that not everyone is like this. Some people (from both sides of every issue) are here to discuss, and that’s admirable. You have a higher tolerance level for bullshit than I do.
But since this is my moment to shine, I’ll leave it with this. I had a professor last term who was probably the most intelligent man I will ever meet. My “class” consisted of one-on-one meetings where we would discuss different topics (mostly related to ethics in research, but we often got off topic). He told me that the true mark of a genius is when a person can examine both sides of an issue and recognize the merits and flaws in each. If two conflicting thoughts can exist in your mind at the same time, you’re truly an enlightened person.
Of course, my (Canadian) prof must be a democrat, as we all know that there’s no such thing as a conservative professor.
[/end rant]
I’m not leaving because I can’t deal with an argument. I think if you ask most of the people here, I’m completely the opposite.
The reasons that I’m leaving the politics forum are;
a) The random, yet frequent, asinine posts. Every now and then, someone says something that completely shakes my faith in the North American school system. To discuss these issues, you have to maintain a certain level of intellect. Now I don’t mean that you need an IQ of 150, but you at least need to examine the facts and present your opinion in a decent manner. People make ridiculous blanket statements about races, nationalities, and political groups that couldn’t be taken seriously by Forrest Gump. This stuff has really started to bug me. Just because it’s your opinion does not make it an immutable truth that trumps any argument.
Just because I’m against the war in Iraq does not mean that I’m a fucking hippy. I’m not against war; I’m against needless war (which Iraq was, IN MY OPINION). Does this mean that I eat granola? Am I wearing Birkenstocks? This is just an example of a type of reasoning that rears its ugly head in this forum. The general forum is rife with this stuff, but it doesn’t belong here.
b) The same 5 topics are being argued here, over and over again, ad naseuem. These topics are;
- The war in Iraq (and through this, criticism or boosting of George W)
- Abortion
- Affirmative Action
- Gay rights
- Democrats/Republicans suck ass because ____________
These are obviously important social issues, at the forefront of political discussion, but there are OTHER topics that can and should be discussed. Every now and then someone will start a discussion on a new, different issue, but 9 times out of 10, the thread either gets ignored, or the argument somehow mutates into one of the above 5. I just can’t stand to read the same cyclic arguments over and over, it’s reminiscent of fights with my ex-girlfriend.
c) The “Us vs. Them” mentality. This is my biggest problem. For example, when anyone calls Zach or me a Democrat, I could scream. We’re CANADIAN, so you would call us a LIBERAL, though I’m definitely not a liberal, and I would bet my life that Zach isn’t either. The world of politics isn’t black and white like that.
People in this forum are constantly grouped into “democrat/republican” or “right wing/left wing”. People cannot be so easily grouped, we’re individuals. Intelligent people do not subscribe to all of the tenets laid down by a certain political group based on faith; they examine the issues and come to conclusions of their own. By grouping people like this, you’re assigning values to them that they may not hold. According to our chart, Justin_stacy is a libertarian. Does that mean he believes in everything contained within their political doctrine? I seriously doubt it. Do I suscribe to every left wing theory? Fuck no, I can make my mind up for myself, I don’t need my morals dictated to me.
This type of adversarial discussion will never go anywhere. If you just bitch at left-wing “hippies” or right-wing “corporate puppets”, you’ll solve nothing. A forum is for DISCUSSION. You present your point of view on a topic, and other people further discuss your views, and present their own. D-I-S-C-U-S-S-I-O-N, not fighting. You want to solve social problems? Resolve your blind irrational hatred for the opposite side.
You cannot tell me that your views are RIGHT, because that’s just not the way this works. You may have a much sounder argument, but where is the acid test to prove you right? Where can I measure the level of “human-ness” in a foetus to determine EXACTLY when it becomes a person? Where can I find a definition of “person” that everyone agrees with? Where is the “moral meter” that tells us who’s fighting for freedom, and who’s trying to oppress? Did that argument score a 9 on the meter? Oh, well I guess that abortion IS wrong. We aren’t arguing about the chemical composition of carbon dioxide, there is no concrete answer. We are not about to arrive at an ultimate truth
The point of this forum should be to openly discuss issues in an enlightened matter. People have raised good points on here that have made me consider my standpoint on certain issues. Frankly, I’m a little more against affirmative action than I used to be. People raised some good points, I checked more of it out for myself, and I came to a conclusion of my own.
I need to say that not everyone is like this. Some people (from both sides of every issue) are here to discuss, and that’s admirable. You have a higher tolerance level for bullshit than I do.
But since this is my moment to shine, I’ll leave it with this. I had a professor last term who was probably the most intelligent man I will ever meet. My “class” consisted of one-on-one meetings where we would discuss different topics (mostly related to ethics in research, but we often got off topic). He told me that the true mark of a genius is when a person can examine both sides of an issue and recognize the merits and flaws in each. If two conflicting thoughts can exist in your mind at the same time, you’re truly an enlightened person.
Of course, my (Canadian) prof must be a democrat, as we all know that there’s no such thing as a conservative professor.
[/end rant]