I know some people on this site are anti war....

[johnh5304]

but would you go this far?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,245718,00.html

Email sent by a soldier in Iraq to a mattress company requesting mats to sleep on:

Sgt. Hess:"Do you ship to APO (military) addresses? I'm in the 1st Cavalry Division stationed in Iraq and we are trying to order some mats but we are looking for ships to APO first."

Reply: "Sgt. Hess,

We do not ship to APO addresses, and even if we did, we would NEVER ship to Iraq. If you were sensible, you and your troops would pull out of Iraq.

Bargain Suppliers
Discount-Mats.com"

[TheOtherAndrew]

but would you go this far?
No.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

I will not, in any way, materially support the United States Army so long as they remain engaged in unjust conflicts and use discriminatory heterosexist codes. I have to give them my tax money, no way around that. But if I owned a business I would certainly refuse to serve them. It's called a boycott. It's what happens when you piss people off.

[Jason Tate]

To play devils advocate -- he may being saying they'd never ship to Iraq because it's too expensive, risky, or some other reason. And the "sensible" line can also be read as "I'd rather see you safe, get out."

Again, doubtful - but it's the other side of the coin.

[TheOtherAndrew]

To play devils advocate -- he may being saying they'd never ship to Iraq because it's too expensive, risky, or some other reason. And the "sensible" line can also be read as "I'd rather see you safe, get out."

Again, doubtful - but it's the other side of the coin.
Dude, come on. I can understand not shipping to Iraq because its too expensive, but the sensible comment?

[Jason Tate]

Dude, come on. I can understand not shipping to Iraq because its too expensive, but the sensible comment?
Begin Devils advocate glasses part 2:

I'd take sensible to mean, "reasonable; showing reason or sound judgment" and from that definition it's easy (if you want to) to look at it to mean, "if you guys were smart, you'd get out of there."

:shrug:

I dunno, almost sounds like sound advice to me.

:End Devils advocate round 2.

[atticus1492]

I will not, in any way, materially support the United States Army so long as they remain engaged in unjust conflicts and use discriminatory heterosexist codes. I have to give them my tax money, no way around that. But if I owned a business I would certainly refuse to serve them. It's called a boycott. It's what happens when you piss people off.

Exactly. Sure, he could and probably should have been nicer about it, but that is business. They absolutely should have the right to refuse service.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

that soldier cant decide to come home
he just wants a mat to sleep on
i would think of that, and send him one.

[TranscendTrends]

hahaha... foxnews, you make me laugh. yeah, that was a bad call (and bad business) by the mat company respondant. obviously, the soldier has no say as to when he can leave iraq, so the mat guy shouldn't be directing such statements at him. but does this matter really deserve national attention? i think not. c'mon.

[Jason Tate]

hahaha... foxnews, you make me laugh. yeah, that was a bad call (and bad business) by the mat company respondant. obviously, the soldier has no say as to when he can leave iraq, so the mat guy shouldn't be directing such statements at him. but does this matter really deserve national attention? i think not. c'mon.
They live off of "moral outrage"

[dw1003]

but would you go this far?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,245718,00.html

Email sent by a soldier in Iraq to a mattress company requesting mats to sleep on:

Sgt. Hess:"Do you ship to APO (military) addresses? I'm in the 1st Cavalry Division stationed in Iraq and we are trying to order some mats but we are looking for ships to APO first."

Reply: "Sgt. Hess,

We do not ship to APO addresses, and even if we did, we would NEVER ship to Iraq. If you were sensible, you and your troops would pull out of Iraq.

Bargain Suppliers
Discount-Mats.com"

Sgt. Hess should write his congressman, talk to his superior, whatever...

but really... discount-mats.com? what the fuck is George Bush doing to our troops... they're contacting fucking discount mats??? this is ridiculous... 360 Billion dollars doesn't buy mats?

I think it's time to cut off funding and stop this fucking war... especially if the troops already don't have what they need.

[falloutboy.]

that is sad.

[x togepi x]

isn't this where you right wingers claim to love free market economics and no government intervention?

this is hilarious. talk about how corporations have the right to do what they want, and then complain when they make the "wrong" decision. lol

[Harold Wood]

I will not, in any way, materially support the United States Army so long as they remain engaged in unjust conflicts and use discriminatory heterosexist codes. I have to give them my tax money, no way around that. But if I owned a business I would certainly refuse to serve them. It's called a boycott. It's what happens when you piss people off.

Get off your high horse and show some compassion. I could elaborate on how ignorant I think you are being. You obviously have no clue what it's like to be a soldier and think you are doing the world a favor by "boycotting" the military. These soldiers need us just as much as you need them. Grow up.

[dw1003]

Get off your high horse and show some compassion. I could elaborate on how ignorant I think you are being. You obviously have no clue what it's like to be a soldier and think you are doing the world a favor by "boycotting" the military. These soldiers need us just as much as you need them. Grow up.

I don't need soldiers in Iraq...

Iraq doesn't pose a threat to this nation. Why do we need soldiers there?

I would say they may need us to boycott the war so they can come home...

[Harold Wood]

I don't need soldiers in Iraq...

Iraq doesn't pose a threat to this nation. Why do we need soldiers there?

I would say they may need us to boycott the war so they can come home...

I said nothing about Iraq

[dw1003]

I said nothing about Iraq

the thread is about... you guessed it!

...a soldier in Iraq!

[x togepi x]

i love it when people say "get off your high horse".

9 times out of 10, that comment can apply to them just as much.

[Harold Wood]

the thread is about... you guessed it!

...a soldier in Iraq!

He made an attack at......... you guessed it

the military as a whole.

[Harold Wood]

i love it when people say "get off your high horse".

9 times out of 10, that comment can apply to them just as much.

I agree but I don't think it does apply to me in this situation.

[johnh5304]

Look, you can not support the war but still support the troops. None of these guys were drafted, they on their own free will decided to join the military. There's probably a reason the military doesn't have surplus mats lying around in a warehouse, they're rarely needed or maybe they had some at one point and did not have enough on hand. Circumstances lead to another and they didnt have the mats. That is not the issue here. The issue is that people would sink so low as to add their negative input on the war to a soldier who has little control on anything that is happening there or where he is stationed. I'm not really saying the guy should have sent the mats because you have the right as a private business to deny service to anyone but he could have just left it at "We do not ship to APO addresses."

And I agree its moral outrage and it was only on FOXnews but stuff like this shouldn't happen to soldiers on the ground regardless.

[dw1003]

I agree but I don't think it does apply to me in this situation.

ha ha... that shit is hilarious!

[Harold Wood]

ha ha... that shit is hilarious!

is it???

awesome

[johnh5304]

dw1003, you're taking what Harold said out of context. He meant you need to support the troops and that we need a military. Boycotting the military will accomplish nothing but label you as a dumbass.

[Harold Wood]

dw1003, you're taking what Harold said out of context. He meant you need to support the troops and that we need a military. Boycotting the military will accomplish nothing but label you as a dumbass.

I thought my point was fairly obvious :shrug:

[Jason Tate]

I'm not really sure what the point of this "story" is -- or why it's really worth debating. Isn't it all personal prerogative? I don't see there as being a right or wrong answer. Too many variables and possible interpretations on all sides.

[Harold Wood]

I'm not really sure what the point of this "story" is -- or why it's really worth debating. Isn't it all personal prerogative? I don't see there as being a right or wrong answer. Too many variables and possible interpretations on all sides.

I agree

I suppose it just really bothered me when someone said they were "boycotting" the military

[Jason Tate]

My question: Why are (some of) you guys not upset that the government has (apparently) not provided these troops with adequate sleeping accommodations?

[Harold Wood]

My question: Why are (some of) you guys not upset that the government has (apparently) not provided these troops with adequate sleeping accommodations?

I am upset about it. My brother is in the military along with my best friend; I also have been in the military. It hits a little close to home.

[johnh5304]

Honestly I think it's just creative writing. I don't see how they wouldn't at least have those cots. I'm more or less just mad with the guys extra remarks.

[Jason Tate]

Honestly I think it's just creative writing. I don't see how they wouldn't at least have those cots. I'm more or less just mad with the guys extra remarks.
What do you mean creative writing?

So you're not mad that they don't have adequate sleeping accommodations provided by the government that sent them over there?

This seems like more indignation over one man's stupid email.

[johnh5304]

What do you mean creative writing?

So you're not mad that they don't have adequate sleeping accommodations provided by the government that sent them over there?

This seems like more indignation over one man's stupid email.

In, terms of creative writing, I think Fox is just trying to conjure up some of this "moral outrage" that you spoke of by making the soldiers sleeping conditions seem worse than they may be. I'm sure there is a reason he didn't have a mat but the article does not express any of that information. I'm sure an overwhelming majority of soldiers have adequate sleeping accommodations but a few soldiers without it aren't going to raise flags with the cheif military commanders. The military isn't really known to be a picnic and I doubt making everyone perfectly comfortbale is a possibility. I'm not particularly happy about the whole thing but I believe the military has more important things on its plate to deal with than making sure everyone has a nice warm bed to sleep in.

Now do I think something like this deserves to be the headlines on foxnews.com? Not really but I don't like it when people's distaste for the war leads them to insult individuals who have no control over their situation. The guy has a right to conduct business and say what he wants but I think you cross a line between making a statement and being an ass.

And maybe I should have restated my question in the opening post. Maybe it should have read "Would your opposition to the war lead you to insult the actual soldiers on the ground?"

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

Look, you can not support the war but still support the troops

I'm really sick of this whole, "Support the war/support the troops" debate.

So let me make it clear:

I do not support the war.

I do not support the troops.

The US military dsicriminates against women, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people in it's policies. It also engages in illegal activity (like last weeks raid on the Iranian consulate), sells arms to regimes that violate human rights (like Israel last summer's war in Lebanon), and continues to kill innocent civilians through inhumane campaigns of bombing. It engages in torture, deception, and fraud. I do not support our military, and I do not support people who can cooperate with such an organization with a clean conscious. I do not support the troops.

[johnh5304]

And what then sir, do you support or suggest the military do? I suggest you move a little farther north. No military is perfect in its policies or strategies but I would take ours over any other in the world anyday. If your answer is to just completely do away with the military, then you are just ignorant.

[sweeny]

I am from Scotland and a lot of our troops got sent out as well. Dont take this the wrong way but the war will not affect AMerica the way it will affect SCotland. Our population is already decreasing and soon it will fall to under 4 million.
I do not agree with the war in Iraq and i definatley dont agree with the fact that your 'President' and Britains 'prime minister' got us involved but i am supporting the troops 100%. They deserve our support, they cannot quite the army and they cannot defy it eithar.If they quite their fucked, if they argue, their fucked so either way they are fucked!!
I have friends in the army and in Iraq, i haven't seen or heard from them in a long time but everyday i hold on to the hope that they are strill alive. They haven't got the proper protection nor the weapons or ammo to survive for long out there. Campaigns are still going on in scoptland to bring back our troops!! when tony blair goes the alliegence with America will change. If scotland becomes independant then we will be free of the horrors of the Iraqi war!!
Bush and Blair are digging their own graves:diggrave: and sooner or later they will pay!!
They both think everyone worships the ground they walk on!! :worship:
WE DONT!!
:explode:
WAR SOLVES NOTHING, IT KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE AND THOSE THAT SURVIVE HAVE THEIR LIVES RUINED BY WAR AND THE KNOWLEDGE THAT MANY OF THEIR FAMILY,FRIENDS AND NEIGHBOURS WILL NOT RETURN.
DONT TELL ME WAR HELPS US IT IS JUST A WAY TO CONTROL THE WORLD!!:hitler:NO OFFENCE TO ALL INVOLVED BUT GEORGE W BUSH CAN KISS MY SCOTTISH ARSE AS CAN TONY BLAIR!!!! :angry:

[johnh5304]

This seemed like somewhat of a decent debate until that last post.

[birdman]

the thread is about... you guessed it!

...a soldier in Iraq!

Once again you are being an ignorant bastard.

People join the army for a college education, great training, and yes...to serve their country. Just because you don't agree with the war doesn't mean you can sit there and belittle what a U.S. Soldier stands for.

[justinevans]

I am from Scotland and a lot of our troops got sent out as well. Dont take this the wrong way but the war will not affect AMerica the way it will affect SCotland. Our population is already decreasing and soon it will fall to under 4 million.
I do not agree with the war in Iraq and i definatley dont agree with the fact that your 'President' and Britains 'prime minister' got us involved but i am supporting the troops 100%. They deserve our support, they cannot quite the army and they cannot defy it eithar.If they quite their fucked, if they argue, their fucked so either way they are fucked!!
I have friends in the army and in Iraq, i haven't seen or heard from them in a long time but everyday i hold on to the hope that they are strill alive. They haven't got the proper protection nor the weapons or ammo to survive for long out there. Campaigns are still going on in scoptland to bring back our troops!! when tony blair goes the alliegence with America will change. If scotland becomes independant then we will be free of the horrors of the Iraqi war!!
Bush and Blair are digging their own graves:diggrave: and sooner or later they will pay!!
They both think everyone worships the ground they walk on!! :worship:
WE DONT!!
:explode:
WAR SOLVES NOTHING, IT KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE AND THOSE THAT SURVIVE HAVE THEIR LIVES RUINED BY WAR AND THE KNOWLEDGE THAT MANY OF THEIR FAMILY,FRIENDS AND NEIGHBOURS WILL NOT RETURN.
DONT TELL ME WAR HELPS US IT IS JUST A WAY TO CONTROL THE WORLD!!:hitler:NO OFFENCE TO ALL INVOLVED BUT GEORGE W BUSH CAN KISS MY SCOTTISH ARSE AS CAN TONY BLAIR!!!! :angry:

war solves some things.

[justinevans]

anyone that sides with the mattress company can eat shit.

/thread.

[make_this_hurt]

war solves some things.
He took a lot of time to just find all the appropriate smiley's and stuff for that post...

[justinevans]

He took a lot of time to just find all the appropriate smiley's and stuff for that post...

its a girl.

[make_this_hurt]

its a girl.
Haha... that explains the incoherency of the post.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

And what then sir, do you support or suggest the military do? I suggest you move a little farther north. No military is perfect in its policies or strategies but I would take ours over any other in the world anyday. If your answer is to just completely do away with the military, then you are just ignorant.

I outlined several very specific concerns with our military.

1) Discrimination (eg. Don't Ask Don't Tell)
2) Violation of international law through torture (eg. Abu Grahib) and illegal use of force (eg. Iranian consulate)
3) Killing of innocent civilians due to careless bombing campaigns (eg. Iraq)
4) Sale of weapons to regimes that violate human rights (eq. Israel,

When you ask "what then sir, do you support or suggest the military do?", the answer is simple. I want the military to stop doing those four things. Why is it that outlining a specific set of criticisms with our military, and refusing to support it until those policies have been changed, means that I need to leave the country? Why is the military exempt from criticism? Simply pointing out that our military is comparatively more just than others (which isn't true, our record of illegal, andti-democratic intervention in places like Haiti, Venezuela, Argentina, etc., is not paralelled by any other world power) doesn't make the criticisms any less valid or urgent. You're idea of patriotism - shutting up and waving the flag - is profoundly anti-democratic.

[Jason Tate]

anyone that sides with the mattress company can eat shit.

/thread.
Not even the mattress company sides with the the SINGLE, NOW FIRED, EMPLOYEE that sent this email.

RTFA.

/You're an idiot.

[justinevans]

Not even the mattress company sides with the the SINGLE, NOW FIRED, EMPLOYEE that sent this email.

RTFA.

/You're an idiot.

keep attacking me.

[Harold Wood]

I outlined several very specific concerns with our military.

1) Discrimination (eg. Don't Ask Don't Tell)
2) Violation of international law through torture (eg. Abu Grahib) and illegal use of force (eg. Iranian consulate)
3) Killing of innocent civilians due to careless bombing campaigns (eg. Iraq)
4) Sale of weapons to regimes that violate human rights (eq. Israel,

When you ask "what then sir, do you support or suggest the military do?", the answer is simple. I want the military to stop doing those four things. Why is it that outlining a specific set of criticisms with our military, and refusing to support it until those policies have been changed, means that I need to leave the country? Why is the military exempt from criticism? Simply pointing out that our military is comparatively more just than others (which isn't true, our record of illegal, andti-democratic intervention in places like Haiti, Venezuela, Argentina, etc., is not paralelled by any other world power) doesn't make the criticisms any less valid or urgent. You're idea of patriotism - shutting up and waving the flag - is profoundly anti-democratic.

blah blah blah

Again you are attacking the military as a whole. It's useless even making an argument back. You just say the same shit in a different way. You think things that that are going to change???? Too bad they have been going for millions of years. No, that is not an excuse to get behind soldiers and support them, it's just fact. Spend your energy somewhere else where you can actually make a change.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

Not even the mattress company sides with the the SINGLE, NOW FIRED, EMPLOYEE that sent this email.

RTFA.

/You're an idiot.


Key Point

To everyone that thinks the guy was wrong: He got fired

To everyone that thinks the company shouldnt support the war effort but that the added, possibly offensive, language he used was wrong: He got fired

For most of the people in this thread, I think its done.

and to justinevans, You were told to read the entire article, and then because you started making ridiculous statements like "anyone who sides with the mattress company can eat shit" you were called an idiot. That attack is far more justified than the war that you are so strongly defending.

[captainhampton]

I outlined several very specific concerns with our military.

1) Discrimination (eg. Don't Ask Don't Tell)
2) Violation of international law through torture (eg. Abu Grahib) and illegal use of force (eg. Iranian consulate)
3) Killing of innocent civilians due to careless bombing campaigns (eg. Iraq)
4) Sale of weapons to regimes that violate human rights (eq. Israel,

When you ask "what then sir, do you support or suggest the military do?", the answer is simple. I want the military to stop doing those four things. Why is it that outlining a specific set of criticisms with our military, and refusing to support it until those policies have been changed, means that I need to leave the country? Why is the military exempt from criticism? Simply pointing out that our military is comparatively more just than others (which isn't true, our record of illegal, andti-democratic intervention in places like Haiti, Venezuela, Argentina, etc., is not paralelled by any other world power) doesn't make the criticisms any less valid or urgent. You're idea of patriotism - shutting up and waving the flag - is profoundly anti-democratic.

what are you talking about shutting up and waving the flag? we're talking about soldiers just getting some decent mattresses to sleep on. so you don't care about the well being of American citizens because they are in the military? Do you realize these people put their lives on the line every day for this country? even if you disagree with the war and the policies of the military, how can you not support the well being of troops who are risking their lives?

and you know what, I am proud to wave the flag of my country. I didn't think having pride for the country you live in was such a bad thing.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

what are you talking about shutting up and waving the flag? we're talking about soldiers just getting some decent mattresses to sleep on. so you don't care about the well being of American citizens because they are in the military? Do you realize these people put their lives on the line every day for this country? even if you disagree with the war and the policies of the military, how can you not support the well being of troops who are risking their lives?

and you know what, I am proud to wave the flag of my country. I didn't think having pride for the country you live in was such a bad thing.


Perhaps the mattress company figured that George Bush was already on top of that.
What idiots.

And before I'm quoted and told that im contradicting myself. My first post in here said that I, key word I, would have sent him the mattresses. But to at as if that company had a obligation to do so is moronic at best.

[justinevans]

Key Point

To everyone that thinks the guy was wrong: He got fired

To everyone that thinks the company shouldnt support the war effort but that the added, possibly offensive, language he used was wrong: He got fired

For most of the people in this thread, I think its done.

and to justinevans, You were told to read the entire article, and then because you started making ridiculous statements like "anyone who sides with the mattress company can eat shit" you were called an idiot. That attack is far more justified than the war that you are so strongly defending.

no where in the entire in the original post does it say to read the article, sorry.

How have I defended the war?

Please point out your assumptions now.

I guess that makes you indeed an idiot too.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

what are you talking about shutting up and waving the flag? we're talking about soldiers just getting some decent mattresses to sleep on. so you don't care about the well being of American citizens because they are in the military? Do you realize these people put their lives on the line every day for this country? even if you disagree with the war and the policies of the military, how can you not support the well being of troops who are risking their lives?

and you know what, I am proud to wave the flag of my country. I didn't think having pride for the country you live in was such a bad thing.


not to put words in his mouth
but I believe he is talking about having blind pride in your country as a bad thing.
I think you knew that, but opted for the subtle attack on his patriotism.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

no where in the entire in the original post does it say to read the article, sorry.

How have I defended the war?

Please point out your assumptions now.

I guess that makes you indeed an idiot too.


1. You need to be told to read the whole article before making statements like the ones you made?

2. My assumption that you were defending the war was soley based on the fact that you attacked the mattress company, and "anyone who sides with them". If that assumption was wrong then disregard that part of my post.

[justinevans]

1. You need to be told to read the whole article before making statements like the ones you made?

2. My assumption that you were defending the war was soley based on the fact that you attacked the mattress company, and "anyone who sides with them". If that assumption was wrong then disregard that part of my post.

1. I don't defend the war, but I think it is ridiculous from the quote I read that was posted that a company wouldn't send mattresses to the troops. It has nothing to do with the war. They enlisted, but they've followed orders. Just like in any other war.

I don't think the Iraq war was the brightest of ideas.

2. I looked at what was said quickly. Anyone that sides with the person who made the comments to the troops can eat shit, better?

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

fair enough

[captainhampton]

not to put words in his mouth
but I believe he is talking about having blind pride in your country as a bad thing.
I think you knew that, but opted for the subtle attack on his patriotism.

I don't support blind pride, it's ok to criticize. is it patriotic to not give any support to the people who risk their lives for this country? to not care about the well being of American citizens?

oh I don't support the military's policy on torture or gay rights, so fuck anybody who is in the miltary, why should we care about their well being? that's patriotic?

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

blah blah blah

Again you are attacking the military as a whole. It's useless even making an argument back. You just say the same shit in a different way. You think things that that are going to change???? Too bad they have been going for millions of years. No, that is not an excuse to get behind soldiers and support them, it's just fact. Spend your energy somewhere else where you can actually make a change.

It doesn't take energy for me to not support the military. In fact, not supporting the military takes less than energy than actively supporting it. I dn't have to go to parades, or wave flags, or put ribbons on my car, or pretend like I give a shit about soldiers. The only thing I have to do is crush fuckwits like yourself in arguments, which I take pleasure in doing.

On attacking the military as a whole - This is precisely what I'm doing. I'm also attacking anyone who is complicit with what the military does. You are not even trying to defend against those points, so I'm not sure why I should be ashamed of attacking the military as an institution.

Will it ever change? - Who knows. Maybe not. The KKK will probably never stop being racist, and I can't change that. But as long as it remains racist, I will never support it, and I will never support people who choose to be a part of it. Likewise with the US military.

"Millions of years" - This is hilarious, because the first documentation of human warfare is in 35,000 BC, which is not even close to a million years ago. The human species is only about 130,000 years old. This is pretty much irrelevant to our debate, but it does prove that you have absolutely no conception of history and that you're an idiot.


what are you talking about shutting up and waving the flag? we're talking about soldiers just getting some decent mattresses to sleep on. so you don't care about the well being of American citizens because they are in the military? Do you realize these people put their lives on the line every day for this country? even if you disagree with the war and the policies of the military, how can you not support the well being of troops who are risking their lives?

and you know what, I am proud to wave the flag of my country. I didn't think having pride for the country you live in was such a bad thing.

Soldiers don't put their lives on the line "for this country". That implies that what they do does something good for the country. But the war in Iraq has made us no safer. It has made us more enemies, cost lives and money. If the soldiers were fighting against a real threat, I would say they are doing me a service. Right now, they are just being stupid fucks.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

I don't support blind pride, it's ok to criticize. is it patriotic to not give any support to the people who risk their lives for this country? to not care about the well being of American citizens?

oh I don't support the military's policy on torture or gay rights, so fuck anybody who is in the miltary, why should we care about their well being? that's patriotic?


Those soldiers you speak of are fighting to protect his right to say what he said. For the record, I dont agree with nearly anything that he did say. But if you have pride in this country, if you are patriotic, if you love waving the flag, then isn't this what you stand for. People saying what they think. I'm totally fine with you debating him, but all this back and forth questioning of people's patriotism and what not needs to end.

And at the end of the day, we're back at the first question. Why are we there, are our soldiers deaths really for this country or are they in vain. You give people an answer to that question that makes sense, and you might see a little more "Pride" in America.

[Harold Wood]

It doesn't take energy for me to not support the military. In fact, not supporting the military takes less than energy than actively supporting it. I dn't have to go to parades, or wave flags, or put ribbons on my car, or pretend like I give a shit about soldiers. The only thing I have to do is crush fuckwits like yourself in arguments, which I take pleasure in doing.

On attacking the military as a whole - This is precisely what I'm doing. I'm also attacking anyone who is complicit with what the military does. You are not even trying to defend against those points, so I'm not sure why I should be ashamed of attacking the military as an institution.

Will it ever change? - Who knows. Maybe not. The KKK will probably never stop being racist, and I can't change that. But as long as it remains racist, I will never support it, and I will never support people who choose to be a part of it. Likewise with the US military.

"Millions of years" - This is hilarious, because the first documentation of human warfare is in 35,000 BC, which is not even close to a million years ago. The human species is only about 130,000 years old. This is pretty much irrelevant to our debate, but it does prove that you have absolutely no conception of history and that you're an idiot.



Soldiers don't put their lives on the line "for this country". That implies that what they do does something good for the country. But the war in Iraq has made us no safer. It has made us more enemies, cost lives and money. If the soldiers were fighting against a real threat, I would say they are doing me a service. Right now, they are just being stupid fucks.

You're right I am a complete idiot. The fact that you date the history of any warfare and violence to HUMAN history shows you don't know what I was referring too. We are not alone on this planet and this planet is not allll about human history. Violence is part of the way of life on earth and has been for MILLIONS of years. I should have made myself clear.

I suppose I should not be attacking you for your choices because in fact I respect that you can take a stand in something you believe in. I just don't agree with you on the premise of not supporting people who are there to defend you when it's needed. I do not agree with half the things our military does. I also know the men and women in the military fighting are not the ones making those choices.

[Love As Arson]

The military does not defend the general populace so much as it protects the general economic interests of the country. I've not received any material benefit from the wars we've engaged in since the US became a superpower. As such I take issue with the remark that they are defending me. Moreover, outline what it is that you mean by supporting the troops. I support them insofar as I do not wish for them to die, but I do not support them in hopes that they win the war, as their victory would elicit a further denial of human rights.

[Jason Tate]

keep attacking me.
Keep being an uneducated moron and I will.

[justinevans]

Keep being an uneducated moron and I will.

yep - I am uneducated.

I've been told about paragraph 4 in the rules...I guess you don't respect people either.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

Those soldiers you speak of are fighting to protect his right to say what he said.

What does the war in Iraq have to do with free speech in the United States? See, this is the exact mentality I want to interrogate. We all learn in school to praise the military for defending our freedom, but I think you'd have to go back to Worl War II to find us fighting a genuine threat to our liberty. We presumptively attach valor to the office of the soldier because they are willing to make a sacrifice - but why praise people who make sacrifices for dubious, and sometimes clearly immoral, ends?

[Jason Tate]

yep - I am uneducated.

I've been told about paragraph 4 in the rules...I guess you don't respect people either.
People earn respect, they're not just given it.

And you are, admittedly, uneducated on this topic - you didn't even read the article in question. The shoe fits.

[Adeniz19]

My question: Why are (some of) you guys not upset that the government has (apparently) not provided these troops with adequate sleeping accommodations?Ya, that seems to be the most unsettling thing about this situation

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

What does the war in Iraq have to do with free speech in the United States? See, this is the exact mentality I want to interrogate. We all learn in school to praise the military for defending our freedom, but I think you'd have to go back to Worl War II to find us fighting a genuine threat to our liberty. We presumptively attach valor to the office of the soldier because they are willing to make a sacrifice - but why praise people who make sacrifices for dubious, and sometimes clearly immoral, ends?


My intent was to point out that he said the soldiers are fighting for us. If they are fighting for America then they are defending those rights. That was my intention anyway, it wasnt that clear. My point is if you are going to defend the military then you shouldn't attack people who are acting out the freedoms that that military is supposed to stand for.

[thejetstolehome]

What does the war in Iraq have to do with free speech in the United States? See, this is the exact mentality I want to interrogate. We all learn in school to praise the military for defending our freedom, but I think you'd have to go back to Worl War II to find us fighting a genuine threat to our liberty. We presumptively attach valor to the office of the soldier because they are willing to make a sacrifice - but why praise people who make sacrifices for dubious, and sometimes clearly immoral, ends?

i agree with the world war II statement but to play devil's advocate, your last sentence implies that every soldier agrees with the reason why they're fighting.

[Love As Arson]

My intent was to point out that he said the soldiers are fighting for us. If they are fighting for America then they are defending those rights. That was my intention anyway, it wasnt that clear. My point is if you are going to defend the military then you shouldn't attack people who are acting out the freedoms that that military is supposed to stand for.
How are our rights tied to Iraq? How were our rights tied to the war in Vietnam or in Korea? Explain how American rights are in jeopardy with these wars. Certainly the rhetoric posits that they are fighting for our rights, but upon closer inspection, who is actually benefitting from these conflicts? Whose interests is the army actually fighting for?

[Harold Wood]

i agree with the world war II statement but to play devil's advocate, your last sentence implies that every soldier agrees with the reason why they're fighting.

Almost everything he has said in this thread implies that.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

How are our rights tied to Iraq? How were our rights tied to the war in Vietnam or in Korea? Explain how American rights are in jeopardy with these wars. Certainly the rhetoric posits that they are fighting for our rights, but upon closer inspection, who is actually benefitting from these conflicts? Whose interests is the army actually fighting for?


I am not attempting to show a connection between these wars and ou rights. However, that argument is often made. My point was, if you are going to make that argument, then you should have a respect for the free speech that you claim the military is protecting. I agree with you that my right to free speech is not being protected by the war in Iraq, in fact, it may even be hurt due to all the policies that are being put into place. The post that I was originally responding to, I felt, made the argument that the troops are defending America and thus our rights. That is why I responded the way that I did.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

i agree with the world war II statement but to play devil's advocate, your last sentence implies that every soldier agrees with the reason why they're fighting.

That is because every soldier voluntarily joins the military. I think an ethical approach to militar service requires more ciritcal thinking given our decades long history of unjustified conflict. If, for somer eason, we were to become involved in an ethically justifiable conflict - like WWII, or if we intervened in Darfur - then people could enlist to show support. Presumptively siding with the state given it's history is not ehtically justified. People who make conscious decisions to support an organization with such a violent history ought to be held culpable for doing so.

[thejetstolehome]

That is because every soldier voluntarily joins the military. I think an ethical approach to militar service requires more ciritcal thinking given our decades long history of unjustified conflict. If, for somer eason, we were to become involved in an ethically justifiable conflict - like WWII, or if we intervened in Darfur - then people could enlist to show support. Presumptively siding with the state given it's history is not ehtically justified. People who make conscious decisions to support an organization with such a violent history ought to be held culpable for doing so.

at the same time, though, many join because they have no where else to go. they may not have wanted to fight in the war, or any war, but it would be better than poverty or a good way to get a little money before moving on to college. one also has to take into consideration soldiers who joined before war started or before september 11th who had no desire to fight. just like we can't assume every solider is an angel with an M-16, we can't assume that every single one of them wants to be in Iraq.

[johnh5304]

HeyCoffeeEyes, I think you more or less hate the military because they won't let you in if you wanted to join and use that as a motivating factor in finding faults with it. Like I said no military is perfect with its policies and and how it carries them out.

I honestly prefer to have mature debates with people, and since this is the internet, I guess its ok to use sarcasm and whatever to lighten the mood but I refuse to debate with someone that refer to people that do not agree with his own ideas as "dumbfucks." Honestly if you have a problem with the way things are, do something about besides coming into a political forum on a site about music. Calling people names because of that is just about as stupid as us invading in the first place. My point with the "move farther north" is basically you might as well leave if you're going to get this worked up over some things that will never change and rid yourself the headache of coming up with misinformed arguements to people you disagree with.

[thejetstolehome]

heycoffeeeyes is one of the most mature posters on this site. and in this forum, he ALWAYS presents his arguments in an incredibly clear, eloquent, and well educated way.

[justinevans]

People earn respect, they're not just given it.

And you are, admittedly, uneducated on this topic - you didn't even read the article in question. The shoe fits.

I'll remember that when I got in an argument with a mod or staff member.

I am going to quote this so I can show that.

If you read down, you would have seen that I apologized and changed what I said about people siding with the person who was fired can eat shit.

[Harold Wood]

heycoffeeeyes is one of the most mature posters on this site. and in this forum, he ALWAYS presents his arguments in an incredibly clear, eloquent, and well educated way.

I agree

I always enjoy reading what he has to say. He is just very biased ha but aren't we all???

[oh_its_julio]

that soldier cant decide to come home
he just wants a mat to sleep on
i would think of that, and send him one.


completely agreed.