Something different

[bossydacow]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/07/18/offbeat.sex.change.reut/index.html

[BrandNewRock05]

Well they are people arent they? Just because they are a murderer doesnt mean the state shouldnt have to pay a half million dollars to change the sex of an inmate. Holy Shit this is fucking absurd!

[bossydacow]

I don't think the state should pay for it. But if he can find some other means to finance the operation, I believe that he should be allowed to do so, and be transferred to a women's prison. Because if you think about it, this person is in two prisons: a real prison, and a male body. He only deserves to be locked up in one.

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by bossydacow
I don't think the state should pay for it. But if he can find some other means to finance the operation, I believe that he should be allowed to do so, and be transferred to a women's prison. Because if you think about it, this person is in two prisons: a real prison, and a male body. He only deserves to be locked up in one.
how is the male body a prison? you can pee standing up...its the greatest. anyway, the guy is just a pussy and wants to go to a female prison because he cant hack it in the male prison. thats my guess. he wont be able to afford it, and the state will end up paying for it if it goes down. not only that, but he will be on estrogen and progesterone pills, those arent free either. sex changes are dumb in the first place, but now we give them to prisoners for free....wow.

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
how is the male body a prison? you can pee standing up...its the greatest.

when you have the mentality of a girl, its a prison. You don't want to pee standing up; you want boobs, smooth facial skin, and narrow shoulders. God, I would hate to have my mind while having a male body. Last month, on tv, it seemed to be transgendered month. There were a million documentaries on transgendered people. I saw two on the Discovery Health Channel, and although I was slightly uncomfortable at first, I came to realize that no one would go through such a drastic operation as to have their penis cut up and folded into a vagina, if they really truly were in emotional distress and felt like they belonged to another gender. So, I don't think that sex changes are stupid. I think they are a good development in medicine.

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by bossydacow
when you have the mentality of a girl, its a prison. You don't want to pee standing up; you want boobs, smooth facial skin, and narrow shoulders. God, I would hate to have my mind while having a male body. Last month, on tv, it seemed to be transgendered month. There were a million documentaries on transgendered people. I saw two on the Discovery Health Channel, and although I was slightly uncomfortable at first, I came to realize that no one would go through such a drastic operation as to have their penis cut up and folded into a vagina, if they really truly were in emotional distress and felt like they belonged to another gender. So, I don't think that sex changes are stupid. I think they are a good development in medicine.
or take an easier route of therapy? sounds better to me. the reason these people feel like this is because of sexal trama growing up, therapy is a much better option than sex changes.

and as for the sex change in prison, tough it out. you are being punished for murdering someone. you made the choice, its not societies fault you are in there. and i sure as hell dont want to pay for your penis to be cut off. nor do i want to pay for estrogen pills for you either.

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
or take an easier route of therapy? sounds better to me. the reason these people feel like this is because of sexal trama growing up, therapy is a much better option than sex changes.

and as for the sex change in prison, tough it out. you are being punished for murdering someone. you made the choice, its not societies fault you are in there. and i sure as hell dont want to pay for your penis to be cut off. nor do i want to pay for estrogen pills for you either.

if therapy worked for that, than there would be no need for sex change operations. To have an operation you need confirmation of a gender-identity disorder from your therapist. The operation IS the cure.

[Justin_stacy]

this is the dumbest thing i've heard in awhile...........good thing this murderer isn't in a california prison, cause he'd probably win his lawsuit in that fucked up state...........

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by bossydacow
if therapy worked for that, than there would be no need for sex change operations. To have an operation you need confirmation of a gender-identity disorder from your therapist. The operation IS the cure.
or take the hand you are dealt with....especially if you want the state to pay for it.

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
or take the hand you are dealt with....especially if you want the state to pay for it.

you don't seem to understand that its a woman trapped in a man's body. Imagine the self-loathing, looking in the mirror everday.

[evil zach]

This is going to sound very crass, but that made me laugh really hard. My dad heard me laughing in in the basment and I'm on the top floor. Anyway, he should pay for it himself. If he wants it done thats fine as long as he can aford it it, but its not as if the state owes him any favours

[BrandNewRock05]

How come all of a sudden people have these urges to change sex? I mean prior to the availability of this surgery, you didnt hear people complain. Sure you had the few cross dressers and stuff, but until this surgery came about no body complained "I hate having a penis." Its the trendy thing to do I think.

[evil zach]

If you think sex changes are trendy, maybe you should re-asses the magazines you read

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
How come all of a sudden people have these urges to change sex? I mean prior to the availability of this surgery, you didnt hear people complain. Sure you had the few cross dressers and stuff, but until this surgery came about no body complained "I hate having a penis." Its the trendy thing to do I think.

yes, because so many people announce to the world that they'd rather be the opposite sex. Like its not a big taboo.
People barely accept gays in this country!

[BrandNewDream]

If he can finance it, great...if not, too bad...no taxpayer should pay for that.

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by evil zach
If you think sex changes are trendy, maybe you should re-asses the magazines you read
ESPN the magazine and Maxim are very influention magazines, I realize that, but the desire for one's penis to be cut off has recently risen.

[Ronin]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
the reason these people feel like this is because of sexal trama growing up

Untrue

[Ronin]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
ESPN the magazine and Maxim are very influention magazines, I realize that, but the desire for one's penis to be cut off has recently risen.

Or maybe the desire is the same, but it's becoming more socially acceptable to go through the operation.

Someone in the 1920's who wanted to be a woman probably didn't have the guts to come forward and say so. Not that it's commonplace now, but it's far more common.

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by Ronin
Or maybe the desire is the same, but it's becoming more socially acceptable to go through the operation.

Someone in the 1920's who wanted to be a woman probably didn't have the guts to come forward and say so. Not that it's commonplace now, but it's far more common.
Umm, I doubt that, its become a posh thing to do in my opinion. San Francisco is full of these guys/gals because its the trendy thing to do. Why dont you see many of them in say Bozeman, Montana? Its not a trendy thing to do in Montana. In San Francisco its a cool thing to do, my opinion of course, but it does hold water.

and as for you saying that sexual trauma not causing problems ask any psychologist, tendencies towards sexual compulsion, sexual addiction, homosexual tendancies and desire to be the other sex all can derive from sexual abuse and trauma.

[Ronin]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
Umm, I doubt that, its become a posh thing to do in my opinion. San Francisco is full of these guys/gals because its the trendy thing to do. Why dont you see many of them in say Bozeman, Montana? Its not a trendy thing to do in Montana. In San Francisco its a cool thing to do, my opinion of course, but it does hold water.

and as for you saying that sexual trauma not causing problems ask any psychologist, tendencies towards sexual compulsion, sexual addiction, homosexual tendancies and desire to be the other sex all can derive from sexual abuse and trauma.

I can ask the psychologists who taught me that sexual abuse DOESN'T produce the majority of transgendered individuals....

But it does produce some sexual confusion in some people, yes. However, there's a distinction between someone who becomes confused with their sexuality because of sexual abuse, and someone who feels as though they are a member of the opposite sex trapped in the wrong body. People who suffer from abuse usually exhibit some psycho-pathology (psychological damage) and have other problems in conjunction.

But yes, you could be right that it's become a new "trend", but I personally think it has alot to do with changing values in our society. By the same argument, you could say that there were far fewer homosexuals around 100 years ago, and that in the past 30 years, it's become trendy and more people are gay. This argument doesn't hold much weight against sociological research that suggests people are simply more welcome to "come out of the closet" in our current society. But then again, it's hard to find a concrete truth to this.

[SonnyPunk]

There was an HBO movie called "Normal", about a man who thought he was a woman in the wrong body. He went through with the change and ended up staying with his wife...kinda disturbing.

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by SonnyPunk
There was an HBO movie called "Normal", about a man who thought he was a woman in the wrong body. He went through with the change and ended up staying with his wife...kinda disturbing.

yeah, i saw a documentary about this guy who felt the same way as the guy you are talking about. But he wanted to live life as a gay woman. So he changed into a woman, and was also attracted to women.

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by Ronin
I can ask the psychologists who taught me that sexual abuse DOESN'T produce the majority of transgendered individuals....

But it does produce some sexual confusion in some people, yes. However, there's a distinction between someone who becomes confused with their sexuality because of sexual abuse, and someone who feels as though they are a member of the opposite sex trapped in the wrong body. People who suffer from abuse usually exhibit some psycho-pathology (psychological damage) and have other problems in conjunction.

But yes, you could be right that it's become a new "trend", but I personally think it has alot to do with changing values in our society. By the same argument, you could say that there were far fewer homosexuals around 100 years ago, and that in the past 30 years, it's become trendy and more people are gay. This argument doesn't hold much weight against sociological research that suggests people are simply more welcome to "come out of the closet" in our current society. But then again, it's hard to find a concrete truth to this.
So how else does somebody get their wires crossed? There has to be some sort of trauma to cause someone to want to cut off their penis. I mean you dont just wake up one day and say " My penis just gets in the way so I am gonna get it hacked off and folded into a vagina". No, something causes this, its gotta be trauma, or it is the trendy left further retarding a nation of impressionable minds. I mean this is crazy...before you know it, these "Chicks with Dicks" and "Manginas" will want compensation for their suffering...I can see it now. "Well, since I was screwed up, and its society's fault without a doubt, I am going to ask for compensation for my half million dollar surgery as well as another million for pain and suffering". I mean thats not to far fetched...Its a reality almost, I mean we have a prison inmate suing the state for not paying for its surgery. And then think of this...they will want to participate in the olympics or somthing like that, but what sex do they participate as? You have dudes with a vagina participating in female events, and having an easy advantage, because all they have to do is stop taking estrogen. Then the olympic comitee gets pissed because you then have "chicks" running sub 10 second 100 meters and no real chick has a chance...so all of this gets really confusing, so they are kicked out of the olympics. They sue. They demand that they be allowed in or they create a trans gender category, and then they get pissed because they are being segrigated. You see how this gets confusing....and this is just one example.

[Ronin]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
So how else does somebody get their wires crossed? There has to be some sort of trauma to cause someone to want to cut off their penis.

It's not a matter of getting your "wires crossed". Some people are born that way, so if you want to split hairs, it's genetic.

But like I said in my other post, there are basically two categories

1) People who have, since they can remember, felt that they were a member of the sex opposite to their genitalia. As far as I can remember, there's actually some support for a biological basis for this, i.e., the sex hormones are not quite in the proper balance for their particular sex, their endocrine system is slightly modified, etc etc. These are the people who feel that they need surgery to be comfortable with themselves, but honestly, I don't think the government should pay for it.

Having a dick doesn't make you a man

2) People who have gone through some type of sexual trauma and have pronouced psychological damage which may include sexual confusion. The only popular example I can think of is Buffalo Bill from "The Silence of the Lambs". There's one part where Hannibal Lecter tells Clarice that to find Buffalo Bill, they should check hospitals that do gender altering surgery, because Bill would have applied, and been rejected because he was not an actual trans-gendered individual, he was just traumatized. This is a pretty accurate scenario.

[BrandNewRock05]

Silence of the Lambs is your idea of an example? How can a movie like that be pronounced and an example? Next time you ask for an example of something I'll toss out Wayne's World or Final Destination....

[Ronin]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
Silence of the Lambs is your idea of an example? How can a movie like that be pronounced and an example? Next time you ask for an example of something I'll toss out Wayne's World or Final Destination....

All of the other examples that I have are clinical cases that I've studied in my honours psych classes. If yo want me to get out my textbooks are write out a few paragraphs that nobody here will understand, I'll try to hook you up.

I'm using it as an example because it's well portrayed, it's accurate, and everyone knows it. I've had profs use it as an example, and they're fairly educated with their doctorates and whatnot.

Just like Jack Nicholson in "As Good As It Gets" is a perfect example of OCD. If it's accurate, why can't I use it as an example?


edit: I didn't mean for that "nobody will understand" part to sound condescending. I just mean that since nobody else here is doing an advanced psychology degree, it wouldn't serve much purpose, just like if someone getting a degree in economics told me all about their accounting class. It'd just go over my head.

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by Ronin
All of the other examples that I have are clinical cases that I've studied in my honours psych classes. If yo want me to get out my textbooks are write out a few paragraphs that nobody here will understand, I'll try to hook you up.

I'm using it as an example because it's well portrayed, it's accurate, and everyone knows it. I've had profs use it as an example, and they're fairly educated with their doctorates and whatnot.

Just like Jack Nicholson in "As Good As It Gets" is a perfect example of OCD. If it's accurate, why can't I use it as an example?


edit: I didn't mean for that "nobody will understand" part to sound condescending. I just mean that since nobody else here is doing an advanced psychology degree, it wouldn't serve much purpose, just like if someone getting a degree in economics told me all about their accounting class. It'd just go over my head.
I ask you, please show me this thing that says "People who want sex changes are born like that, it has nothing to do with trend or enviroment..."

[Ronin]

Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
I ask you, please show me this thing that says "People who want sex changes are born like that, it has nothing to do with trend or enviroment..."

You won't ever find a scientist that is so arrogant (and ignorant) that he/she will say "this is what causes it". Science is constantly changing through experiment, they can only make educated guesses.

And since I can't access the APA database for some stupid fucking reason, this is the best I could find for you in the mass media

http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/gender_identity_disorder.html

http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/gender_identity_disorder.htm

http://www.genderpsychology.org/introduction/primary.html (note how she references a movie)

http://www.genderpsychology.org/psychology/BSTc.html (all about the brain)

http://www.genderpsychology.org/psychology/cause.html

this last one is probably the best. you'll notice that the psychologist recognizes that there is no one answer to this question.

and before you bitch about my sources, a graduate student in psychology would have a MINIMUM of 8 years training in the field, so she knows what she's talking about, and sources are cited

And since you're so adamant in your standpoint, I'd suggest you read them in their entirety before responding.

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by Ronin
You won't ever find a scientist that is so arrogant (and ignorant) that he/she will say "this is what causes it". Science is constantly changing through experiment, they can only make educated guesses.

And since I can't access the APA database for some stupid fucking reason, this is the best I could find for you in the mass media

http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/gender_identity_disorder.html

http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/gender_identity_disorder.htm

http://www.genderpsychology.org/introduction/primary.html (note how she references a movie)

http://www.genderpsychology.org/psychology/BSTc.html (all about the brain)

http://www.genderpsychology.org/psychology/cause.html

this last one is probably the best. you'll notice that the psychologist recognizes that there is no one answer to this question.

and before you bitch about my sources, a graduate student in psychology would have a MINIMUM of 8 years training in the field, so she knows what she's talking about, and sources are cited

And since you're so adamant in your standpoint, I'd suggest you read them in their entirety before responding.
I agree with this paragraph here and think it best describes the situation....

"There has been lots of research addressing the possible causes of transsexuality yet nobody really knows the answer. One possibility is a neurological difference like Zhoo's two studies showing BSTc is related to gender identity (not sex, sexual orientation, or hormone levels). Another possiblity is Richard Green's theory about how homosexuality and transsexuality have the same underlying biological causes (no matter what the TS's sexual orientation) but that it's the social environment which leads somebody to be a transsexual. Yet another possiblity comes out of Ken Zucker's research where boy-bodied children with GID have some girlish physical features and girl-bodied children with GID have some boyish physical features. So maybe transsexuality emerges because your physical features cause people treat you more like the 'other' sex. Also, Ray Blanchard has a model where transsexuality is one form of misdirected sex drive. And I could go with even more possibilities! "

What I like about it is that it says that there is no answer to the question...however it says that all of these are possiblities (however it does leave out my pop culture theory). I agree that some people may just be born with this disposition, such as people are born with Downs Syndrome and people are born with pure genius genes. But many different things can end up with the same result. Like the watering of the crops in the next paragraph, you could switch it around and say that all of these factors can cause the need of water....same as all of these factors can cause transgender tendancies, ie. biology, enviroment, pop culture etc...