Abortion Debate

[thejetstolehome]

we haven't one of these in a while so here goes...

pro choice?
pro life?
unsure?

wait for poll...

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

Pro-Life

However, at this point I would like to see people who are Pro-Life start supporting things that will give women less reason to have abortions. This is why I am in support of people like Barack Obama. Even though he is Pro-Choice, he is for taking steps to reduce the amount of abortions. I think everyone should be able to get behind that. George Bush is Pro-Life and nothing has changed. I would rather see a Pro-Choice administation that is fighting poverty, and in turn reducing the amount of abortions, than a Pro-Life administration that is simply talking against abortion but doing nothing about it.

[Take Heart]

Please don't use fucking ignorant terms like "pro-life" when making polls about abortion rights

[thejetstolehome]

Pro Choice.

i think there is no circumstance in which i should be able to tell any woman whether she be a friend, aquaintance, mother, sister, cousin, wife/girlfriend, whatever what she can or can't do with her body.

[IAPAI]

oh shit, I hit pro-life and I meant pro-choice.

I definitely support Choice, all the way.

[thejetstolehome]

Please don't use fucking ignorant terms like "pro-life" when making polls about abortion rights

...?

what other term am i supposed to use? that's the generally accepted/easiest term so i used it.

[Take Heart]

I'm not going to get into the semantics behind how loaded the term "pro-life" is here, but just think about it. There are better ways to say it

[Dean Wormer]

Pro-Choice

[thejetstolehome]

I'm not going to get into the semantics behind how loaded the term "pro-life" is here, but just think about it. There are better ways to say it

dude, i really have no idea. just throw another term out there. i don't agree with the term as it makes everyone against that stance seem "pro-death" but i really don't know what other term to define it as.

[Dean Wormer]

I'm not going to get into the semantics behind how loaded the term "pro-life" is here, but just think about it. There are better ways to say it

Pro-Fetus?

[Take Heart]

dude, i really have no idea. just throw another term out there. i don't agree with the term as it makes everyone against that stance seem "pro-death" but i really don't know what other term to define it as.

Yeah, I'm trying to think about it now. I realize that no matter how you try to phrase it, it comes out leaning to the right or the left. I've just always hated the term "pro-life"

Sorry about the blow-up, I see you were just using pro-life as it's the well-known term

[Take Heart]

Anti-logic, Anti-choice, Pro-blindfaithinthebible

I guess Pro-life is really the shortest way to say it ;-)

[cantnokdahustle]

Completely Pro-Choice. This does not mean pro abortion. I would like to see abortion used less, but as long as people are against birth control and education, this is the consequence.

If you are "pro-life" and against contraception, you are the reason abortion rates are so high.

How about we focus on making life better for human beings that inhabit this planet, instead of actively upping the consumption of resources, in effect fucking over those who live in poverty.

[thejetstolehome]

Pro-Fetus?\

i lol'd.

Yeah, I'm trying to think about it now. I realize that no matter how you try to phrase it, it comes out leaning to the right or the left. I've just always hated the term "pro-life"

Sorry about the blow-up, I see you were just using pro-life as it's the well-known term

it's all good. :beerbros:

[thejetstolehome]

Completely Pro-Choice. This does not mean pro abortion. I would like to see abortion used less, but as long as people are against birth control and education, this is the consequence.

If you are "pro-life" and against contraception, you are the reason abortion rates are so high.

How about we focus on making life better for human beings that inhabit this planet, instead of actively upping the consumption of resources, in effect fucking over those who live in poverty.

:clap:

[Take Heart]

Completely Pro-Choice. This does not mean pro abortion. I would like to see abortion used less, but as long as people are against birth control and education, this is the consequence.

If you are "pro-life" and against contraception, you are the reason abortion rates are so high.

How about we focus on making life better for human beings that inhabit this planet, instead of actively upping the consumption of resources, in effect fucking over those who live in poverty.

Very well said. I agree with the entire message, I have an ex who considers abortion a method of birth control, and I think that is despicable.

[Dean Wormer]

Very well said. I agree with the entire message, I have an ex who considers abortion a method of birth control, and I think that is despicable.

Definately. Abortion being used as contraception is insane.

[Hidenothing27]

Pro Choice.

i think there is no circumstance in which i should be able to tell any woman whether she be a friend, aquaintance, mother, sister, cousin, wife/girlfriend, whatever what she can or can't do with her body.

I agree but i believe that baby she is carrying is a life and has no voice to be heard. Now the question comes down to do you believe it is a life? and that is a whole different subject.

though I'm a christian/pro-life I cannot stand those Pro-life activists doing what they do in gods name. They do harm to their cause with their vile pictures and slurs of damnation. If they actually read the bible instead of "reading they lines they gave me from the pulpit" (100 AP points if someone can tell me what dead poetic song that is from) then they'd realize they should start loving the women that are going in and supporting them and pray for them instead of bashing them.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

I know we all already know both sides of the argument so theres not much point in rehashing all of them. But to me the key is that the woman's choice does not just effect her body. Scott Peterson kills his pregnant wife. He gets double murder.

That said, like I said earlier. At this point, I'd rather see people on both sides of the issue come together to try and reduce the amount of abortions that take place. It frustrates me when people are against abortion, but also intensely opposed to things like welfare, and other programs that help the poor. As individuals, if people don't like abortion, they should try to fight the cause of it, not those who partake in it.

[Hidenothing27]

additionally no one EVER has the right to judge those ladies until they put in the same shoes as they are.

[cantnokdahustle]

Very well said. I agree with the entire message, I have an ex who considers abortion a method of birth control, and I think that is despicable.

Thank you. Has she never heard of emergency contraception? If so, laziness to the utmost degree. Or this was pre-availability and still abhorrent.

[thejetstolehome]

I agree but i believe that baby she is carrying is a life and has no voice to be heard. Now the question comes down to do you believe it is a life? and that is a whole different subject.


i don't think it's entirely different as one's view of when exactly life begins in the womb is usually where one bases one's stance on aborition.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

Very well said. I agree with the entire message, I have an ex who considers abortion a method of birth control, and I think that is despicable.

agreed

Definately. Abortion being used as contraception is insane.

agreed

I agree but i believe that baby she is carrying is a life and has no voice to be heard. Now the question comes down to do you believe it is a life? and that is a whole different subject.

though I'm a christian/pro-life I cannot stand those Pro-life activists doing what they do in gods name. They do harm to their cause with their vile pictures and slurs of damnation. If they actually read the bible instead of "reading they lines they gave me from the pulpit" (100 AP points if someone can tell me what dead poetic song that is from) then they'd realize they should start loving the women that are going in and supporting them and pray for them instead of bashing them.

agreed

Dead Poetic-Glass in the Trees

[Hidenothing27]

i don't think it's entirely different as one's view of when exactly life begins in the womb is usually where one bases one's stance on aborition.


Touche (sp?)

[Hidenothing27]

S.T.E.P.H.E.N



ahhh well done... that is a great song...

[cantnokdahustle]

If anyone wants to see one of the worst things America has to offer drive down I-35 between Austin and San Antonio. There you will find a monument of about 100 crosses or so that are dedicated to the "unborn who were murdered by their mothers." My wife and I stood in awe and imagined how that might feel to a woman who was driving by that had been through such a mentally taxing ordeal. Truly compassionate!

[IAPAI]

Scott Peterson kills his pregnant wife. He gets double murder.
What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Don't bring murder trials into a question about morality.

[thejetstolehome]

Touche (sp?)

yea that's spelled right. there's an accent on the E though.

[thejetstolehome]

If anyone wants to see one of the worst things America has to offer drive down I-35 between Austin and San Antonio. There you will find a monument of about 100 crosses or so that are dedicated to the "unborn who were murdered by their mothers." My wife and I stood in awe and imagined how that might feel to a woman who was driving by that had been through such a mentally taxing ordeal. Truly compassionate!

jesus, i can't even imagine...

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Don't bring murder trials into a question about morality.


are you serious?
It has to do with the fact that when a pregnant mother is killed, we all consider the baby a person.
But when its an abortion, many do not.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

If anyone wants to see one of the worst things America has to offer drive down I-35 between Austin and San Antonio. There you will find a monument of about 100 crosses or so that are dedicated to the "unborn who were murdered by their mothers." My wife and I stood in awe and imagined how that might feel to a woman who was driving by that had been through such a mentally taxing ordeal. Truly compassionate!


Crosses placed there by people who have completely missed the point.

[thejetstolehome]

are you serious?
It has to do with the fact that when a pregnant mother is killed, we all consider the baby a person.
But when its an abortion, many do not.

see, that might not necessarily be the belief of the prosecutor but rather the desire of the public so it makes the murder seem even worse than he may already be.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

see, that might not necessarily be the belief of the prosecutor but rather the desire of the public so it makes the murder seem even worse than he may already be.


I definitely can see that.

[IAPAI]

are you serious?
It has to do with the fact that when a pregnant mother is killed, we all consider the baby a person.
But when its an abortion, many do not.
It depends a lot on how far along the pregnancy is. And stop generalizing with the term "we all", because it's pretty obvious that we all don't consider the fetus a person.

see, that might not necessarily be the belief of the prosecutor but rather the desire of the public so it makes the murder seem even worse than he may already be.

Absolutely. If he's already guilty of killing his wife, the guy is clearly a big enough piece of shit to go to Jail for longer, so they can use that as the reasoning.

[Hidenothing27]

are you serious?
It has to do with the fact that when a pregnant mother is killed, we all consider the baby a person.
But when its an abortion, many do not.


agreed... Why does an abortion not count as murder yet when a pregnant lady is killed it is! So what... as long as the mother wanted it killed its not.

Thats where the law gets fuzzy.. abortion itself is fuzzy.. I could not imagine that if I found out the woman i love is pregnant and was told that she will die in labor and even the baby could die in labor, It would be hard for me not to have her get an abortion.. I hope that no one has to be in that situation ever..

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

It depends a lot on how far along the pregnancy is. And stop generalizing with the term "we all", because it's pretty obvious that we all don't consider the fetus a person.



Absolutely. If he's already guilty of killing his wife, the guy is clearly a big enough piece of shit to go to Jail for longer, so they can use that as the reasoning.


can we agree that more people will consider it a person in that case than in the case of an abortion?

[selftitled85]

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Don't bring murder trials into a question about morality.

double standard you idiot.

a woman can get an abortion and it does not count as murder. a man kills his pregnant wife and construed as double murder.

im pro-life. i believe it is a life once it is conceived. you see a heart beating, you see it moving, it reacts in different ways to things you do. it is alive.

i would be ok if abortion was allowed in only specific situations, hurting the mom, rape, incest, etc. but "as a form of birth control" is complete crap. you are an idiot and should be more careful.

[IAPAI]

can we agree that more people will consider it a person in that case than in the case of an abortion?

I will repeat: It depends how far along the pregnancy is.

[thisisadisaster]

i voted unsure because my opinion constantly changes everyday.

i find it very morally wrong. but most of my life ive believed that its ok in some situations.

however, my best friend thought she was pregnant last month and was considering abortion if she was (she wasnt) but i couldnt not stand by her side and support her, despite what i believed about abortion.

therefore, for right now, i am unsure.

[selftitled85]

It depends a lot on how far along the pregnancy is. And stop generalizing with the term "we all", because it's pretty obvious that we all don't consider the fetus a person.



Absolutely. If he's already guilty of killing his wife, the guy is clearly a big enough piece of shit to go to Jail for longer, so they can use that as the reasoning.

ok so are you ok with second and third term pregnancies? because there have been times when babies born a few months early have gone on to live fine lives. one of my good friends being one of them.


and your second part is retarded because that doesnt make sense. you cannot just put a person in prison for longer because you think he is a piece of shit. there are laws in place...for murder there is a set of stipulations...you go to jail for up to this long or so. you cant just add on more years because you think he deserves more. you need a second crime...ie: murder of a second person.

[thejetstolehome]

I definitely can see that.

word.


Absolutely. If he's already guilty of killing his wife, the guy is clearly a big enough piece of shit to go to Jail for longer, so they can use that as the reasoning.

right--and too expand, the public itself may even be largely pro-choice but they'll most likely want a murderer away for as long as possible.

[cantnokdahustle]

agreed... Why does an abortion not count as murder yet when a pregnant lady is killed it is! So what... as long as the mother wanted it killed its not.

Thats where the law gets fuzzy.. abortion itself is fuzzy.. I could not imagine that if I found out the woman i love is pregnant and was told that she will die in labor and even the baby could die in labor, It would be hard for me not to have her get an abortion.. I hope that no one has to be in that situation ever..

Hope all you want, but that shit happens every day of the week (and twice on sundays).

sorry had to add this:

"Well, you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets filled first. ." mad props to the person who can tell me what that is from.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

i voted unsure because my opinion constantly changes everyday.

i find it very morally wrong. but most of my life ive believed that its ok in some situations.

however, my best friend thought she was pregnant last month and was considering abortion if she was (she wasnt) but i couldnt not stand by her side and support her, despite what i believed about abortion.

therefore, for right now, i am unsure.


You can support your friend and love her without supporting abortion for sure. And I agree, if it were one of my friends, I would definitely not feel right if I did not support them even though I do not agree with abortion.

I find it ironic, in the case mentioned earlier about the crosses for the murdered babies, that those people have placed crosses there for the babies, but apparently have forgotten everything the cross stands for. Grace, Forgiveness, and Love for example.

[thejetstolehome]

i voted unsure because my opinion constantly changes everyday.

i find it very morally wrong. but most of my life ive believed that its ok in some situations.

however, my best friend thought she was pregnant last month and was considering abortion if she was (she wasnt) but i couldnt not stand by her side and support her, despite what i believed about abortion.

therefore, for right now, i am unsure.

one kid i went to high school had some of the same line of thinking--he thought that abortion itself was wrong, immoral, a sin, etc. however, he believed that it wasn't his right, or anyone else's, to tell a woman what she can and cannot do in that situation.

[selftitled85]

word.



right--and too expand, the public itself may even be largely pro-choice but they'll most likely want a murderer away for as long as possible.

you cant just decide when it is ok to call an unborn alive and when it is dead. that is bullshit. if you want to do something like that then you need to place a line somewhere in the middle where the unborn is seen as alive or dead. say...i dunno the 5th month on...the baby cannot be aborted and can be seen as murder.

anytime below then you can legalize abortion but if you kill a pregnant woman if it is below that moment he cannot be tried for double murder.

[thisisadisaster]

one kid i went to high school had some of the same line of thinking--he thought that abortion itself was wrong, immoral, a sin, etc. however, he believed that it wasn't his right, or anyone else's, to tell a woman what she can and cannot do in that situation.

thats how i feel exactly.

im not saying i would be against legislation to stop abortion, but i myself feel i have no right to ever tell a woman she can or cant have an abortion.

[thejetstolehome]

you cant just decide when it is ok to call an unborn alive and when it is dead. that is bullshit. if you want to do something like that then you need to place a line somewhere in the middle where the unborn is seen as alive or dead. say...i dunno the 5th month on...the baby cannot be aborted and can be seen as murder.

anytime below then you can legalize abortion but if you kill a pregnant woman if it is below that moment he cannot be tried for double murder.

of course it's bullshit but it's still something a prosecutor could do to go for the jugular of the accused. then again, i'm not exactly a law scholar so i don't know which states or counties or what have you have for their abortion or "life-definition" laws so i could be incredibly off base.

[thejetstolehome]

thats how i feel exactly.

im not saying i would be against legislation to stop abortion, but i myself feel i have no right to ever tell a woman she can or cant have an abortion.

if you feel you have no right in that situation, then how could you support legislation to take that right away from the woman?

[selftitled85]

if you feel you have no right in that situation, then how could you support legislation to take that right away from the woman?

because people are sheep.

i would respect legislation for finally growing a pair and coming up with an actual law that makes sense.

when you take into account the grounds that the abortion law was formed on...the abortion law needs to be revalued and changed.

[thisisadisaster]

if you feel you have no right in that situation, then how could you support legislation to take that right away from the woman?

im not sure. i guess its that im not telling them in person mentality.

im not saying theres anything right about my thinking by any means.

its just with my feelings towards abortion it would be hard for me to NOT support legislation. i can support a friend in doing something i dont agree with, but i cant support something i dont agree with in general.

i know. its flawed logic.

[thejetstolehome]

because people are sheep.

i would respect legislation for finally growing a pair and coming up with an actual law that makes sense.

when you take into account the grounds that the abortion law was formed on...the abortion law needs to be revalued and changed.

what do you mean when you say people are sheep?

EDIT: in this context, i mean. i obviously know the saying and it's connotations, i'm just curious as to how you mean it in this situation.

[Lueda Alia]

I don't see how anyone can even argue over this. If you're going to tell me that the fetus is a human being, I would just like to say: If it's a human then it should not be above the law; a person cannot user someone else's body without his/her permission because that's illegal.

If you make abortion illegal, more people are going to die because there's no way to stop abortion forever. It would be amazing if there were no abortions but at this point in time that's not an option.

[selftitled85]

what do you mean when you say people are sheep?

EDIT: in this context, i mean. i obviously know the saying and it's connotations, i'm just curious as to how you mean it in this situation.

people are followers. they want others to make their decision for them. i am one of them i admit it...i would rather have the legislation listen to points on both sides and then come to a decision and that is that.

i think if a decision was made people would be end up following it. thats how i meant it.

[Lueda Alia]

If anyone wants to see one of the worst things America has to offer drive down I-35 between Austin and San Antonio. There you will find a monument of about 100 crosses or so that are dedicated to the "unborn who were murdered by their mothers." My wife and I stood in awe and imagined how that might feel to a woman who was driving by that had been through such a mentally taxing ordeal. Truly compassionate!
That's so horrible.

A research study that I read a while ago said that most women have an abortion by the time they're 40 years old.

[thejetstolehome]

people are followers. they want others to make their decision for them. i am one of them i admit it...i would rather have the legislation listen to points on both sides and then come to a decision and that is that.

i think if a decision was made people would be end up following it. thats how i meant it.

do you think this legislation should be at the federal or state level, like it currently is?

[selftitled85]

I don't see how anyone can even argue over this. If you're going to tell me that the fetus is a human being, I would just like to say: If it's a human then it should not be above the law; a person cannot user someone else's body without his/her permission because that's illegal.

If you make abortion illegal, more people are going to die because there's no way to stop abortion forever. It would be amazing if there were no abortions but at this point in time that's not an option.

im not saying make abortion illegal. im saying make abortion illegal after a point. maybe 5 months or so. this would mean getting rid of partial birth abortions which are pretty much the most disgusting things in the world.

[selftitled85]

do you think this legislation should be at the federal or state level, like it currently is?

federal by far. if it was at state there would be a mass influx of women going to states where its legal and then much easier for complications to occur and a lot of problems.

[thejetstolehome]

im not saying make abortion illegal. im saying make abortion illegal after a point. maybe 5 months or so. this would mean getting rid of partial birth abortions which are pretty much the most disgusting things in the world.

a definite time frame is needed but that's where the next debate will arise.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

I don't see how anyone can even argue over this. If you're going to tell me that the fetus is a human being, I would just like to say: If it's a human then it should not be above the law; a person cannot user someone else's body without his/her permission because that's illegal.

If you make abortion illegal, more people are going to die because there's no way to stop abortion forever. It would be amazing if there were no abortions but at this point in time that's not an option.


So if we think that a fetus is a human being then we have to support what? The arrests of babies? Come on.

[selftitled85]

a definite time frame is needed but that's where the next debate will arise.

wordizzle

[thisisadisaster]

im not saying make abortion illegal. im saying make abortion illegal after a point. maybe 5 months or so. this would mean getting rid of partial birth abortions which are pretty much the most disgusting things in the world.

ill agree with you on that.

i dunno abortion is such a touchy subject with me. im totally not sure where i stand.

[thejetstolehome]

ill agree with you on that.

i dunno abortion is such a touchy subject with me. im totally not sure where i stand.

it's a touchy subject for everyone, really.

[Lueda Alia]

double standard you idiot.

a woman can get an abortion and it does not count as murder. a man kills his pregnant wife and construed as double murder.

im pro-life. i believe it is a life once it is conceived. you see a heart beating, you see it moving, it reacts in different ways to things you do. it is alive.

i would be ok if abortion was allowed in only specific situations, hurting the mom, rape, incest, etc. but "as a form of birth control" is complete crap. you are an idiot and should be more careful.
Right, because in all cases, the people involved are idiots. That is such flawed logic. Sometimes you can get pregnant even if you're using protection. What do you think about those cases? "Oops, tough luck"?!

Since you said there should be made some exception: How are you going to prove that someone was raped? Do you have any idea how many women would lie about it? There's no way to prove that she's lying. If you try to, it might be too late for her to have an abortion without complications. That idea would never work.

Also, you don't see a heart beating or anything moving for quite a while.

[Lueda Alia]

im not saying make abortion illegal. im saying make abortion illegal after a point. maybe 5 months or so. this would mean getting rid of partial birth abortions which are pretty much the most disgusting things in the world.
I don't know how I feel about those abortions, but I still believe that the decision should be made by the woman. It's her body and her life and you (or anyone) can't make that choice for her.
So if we think that a fetus is a human being then we have to support what? The arrests of babies? Come on.
What? You missed the point.

[Lueda Alia]

it's a touchy subject for everyone, really.
Which is why I wish people would stop thinking that you're pro-abortion or pro-death when you really just support the freedom of choice.

[thisisadisaster]

it's a touchy subject for everyone, really.

ya i mean... ive talked about how i feel like alot of what i believe was kinda brainwashed into me when i was young through religion and how religious the town i grew up in was. alot of believes were held by everyone cause we were all the same religion and we all believed the same way so noone questioned anything.

ive been trying to make up my own mind about how i feel on alot of things over the past yearish, but abortion has been the one subject i have the hardest time trying to decide my stance on. theres just too much gray.

/horrible grammar and sentence structure.

[AP_Punk]

Pro-Choice

[thejetstolehome]

Which is why I wish people would stop thinking that you're pro-abortion or pro-death when you really just support the freedom of choice.

ditto.

ya i mean... ive talked about how i feel like alot of what i believe was kinda brainwashed into me when i was young through religion and how religious the town i grew up in was. alot of believes were held by everyone cause we were all the same religion and we all believed the same way so noone questioned anything.

ive been trying to make up my own mind about how i feel on alot of things over the past yearish, but abortion has been the one subject i have the hardest time trying to decide my stance on. theres just too much gray.

/horrible grammar and sentence structure.

yea, there's a ton of gray with it and there's obviously no rush to make your decision on it. if you really want to, just take time and think about it and what not.

[Lueda Alia]

ya i mean... ive talked about how i feel like alot of what i believe was kinda brainwashed into me when i was young through religion and how religious the town i grew up in was. alot of believes were held by everyone cause we were all the same religion and we all believed the same way so noone questioned anything.

ive been trying to make up my own mind about how i feel on alot of things over the past yearish, but abortion has been the one subject i have the hardest time trying to decide my stance on. theres just too much gray.

/horrible grammar and sentence structure.
I think it's really great that you've been doing that. I respect that so much, no matter what your views and beliefs are.

[selftitled85]

I don't know how I feel about those abortions, but I still believe that the decision should be made by the woman. It's her body and her life and you (or anyone) can't make that choice for her.

What? You missed the point.

she did have a choice...like i said...up to 5 months she would have a choice...then from there she shouldnt because now that baby is pretty much living. babies have been born in the 6th month and survived to live perfect lives. it does not seem right to allow people to just for the first 5 months be like yeah i want to have it and then be like "haha made you look"

[cantnokdahustle]

ya i mean... ive talked about how i feel like alot of what i believe was kinda brainwashed into me when i was young through religion and how religious the town i grew up in was. alot of believes were held by everyone cause we were all the same religion and we all believed the same way so noone questioned anything.

ive been trying to make up my own mind about how i feel on alot of things over the past yearish, but abortion has been the one subject i have the hardest time trying to decide my stance on. theres just too much gray.

/horrible grammar and sentence structure.

honestly, its all about weighing consequences. On one hand you have a truly regrettable situation, but on the other so much more harm will come.

it just forces everything underground, exponentially increasing the threat of infection and botched work, then there is the dreaded coat hanger (the other consequences myself and others have already addressed).

[Lueda Alia]

she did have a choice...like i said...up to 5 months she would have a choice...then from there she shouldnt because now that baby is pretty much living. babies have been born in the 6th month and survived to live perfect lives. it does not seem right to allow people to just for the first 5 months be like yeah i want to have it and then be like "haha made you look"
I think it's ridiculous that you assume women feel that way.

Abortion is one of the hardest things a woman can go through and it disgusts me how some people think that women have a good time during the whole experience. It's really unbelievable. I've never experienced it personally, but I know enough about it and I've never met a woman who's woken up one day and thought, "Uh, I think I'm going to have an abortion today!" That's just so untrue.

[thisisadisaster]

yea, there's a ton of gray with it and there's obviously no rush to make your decision on it. if you really want to, just take time and think about it and what not.

ya... im one of those people who get really bothered when they dont have some sort of stance on a subject.

I think it's really great that you've been doing that. I respect that so much, no matter what your views and beliefs are.

thanks eda. i really appreciate it.

i struggle with it alot, because i feel like many times people dont want me to change.

im like that little brother everyone had that noone wants to grow up.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

I don't know how I feel about those abortions, but I still believe that the decision should be made by the woman. It's her body and her life and you (or anyone) can't make that choice for her.

What? You missed the point.


then what did you mean by if the fetus is a human then it shouldn't be above the law?

[IAPAI]

ya i mean... ive talked about how i feel like alot of what i believe was kinda brainwashed into me when i was young through religion and how religious the town i grew up in was. alot of believes were held by everyone cause we were all the same religion and we all believed the same way so noone questioned anything.

ive been trying to make up my own mind about how i feel on alot of things over the past yearish, but abortion has been the one subject i have the hardest time trying to decide my stance on. theres just too much gray.

/horrible grammar and sentence structure.

Not relating to that particular post, but I find it funny in this context that your user title is "I am wade".

[cantnokdahustle]

she did have a choice...like i said...up to 5 months she would have a choice...then from there she shouldnt because now that baby is pretty much living. babies have been born in the 6th month and survived to live perfect lives. it does not seem right to allow people to just for the first 5 months be like yeah i want to have it and then be like "haha made you look"

unfortunately, there are cases where women are not aware that they are pregnant by this time.

[Lueda Alia]

ya... im one of those people who get really bothered when they dont have some sort of stance on a subject.



thanks eda. i really appreciate it.

i struggle with it alot, because i feel like many times people dont want me to change.

im like that little brother everyone had that noone wants to grow up.
It's all about you though and it does not matter how other people want you to be. You should be your own person.

[Hidenothing27]

listen Morningstar... I rarely post but I have seen you before in these abortion debates and you do nothing but cause more harm to these debates then good. the first 3 pages were civil and well thought.. we understand your opinion but try to understand others... I was actually enjoying this forum until you got involved.

[selftitled85]

I think it's ridiculous that you assume women feel that way.

Abortion is one of the hardest things a woman can go through and it disgusts me how some people think that women have a good time during the whole experience. It's really unbelievable. I've never experienced it personally, but I know enough about it and I've never met a woman who's woken up one day and thought, "Uh, I think I'm going to have an abortion today!" That's just so untrue.

i never said it was an easy decision. but i think at some time when the baby is able to survive outside of the mother...it is not fair for her to have up until 8 months and 29 days to decide if she wants to have the baby or not.

[Broken Parachute]

I've learned that it really doesn't matter to me (not just abortion, but all of politics). I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe..nobody is going to change anything, why do we all fight? It's nonsense.

[thisisadisaster]

honestly, its all about weighing consequences. On one hand you have a truly regrettable situation, but on the other so much more harm will come.

it just forces everything underground, exponentially increasing the threat of infection and botched work, then there is the dreaded coat hanger (the other consequences myself and others have already addressed).

that is one of the things that swings me towards the pro choice side.

[Lueda Alia]

then what did you mean by if the fetus is a human then it shouldn't be above the law?
Did you not read my post? I said that if you're going to argue that the fetus is a baby and it should have rights just like everyone else, then they should also not be above the law. According to the law, no human being can use someone else's body without their permission. Thus, if the fetus is a human being that deserves to have rights, how can they use someone else's body against that person's will and get away with it? If they deserve the same rights as me, they should also be subject to the same laws.

[Lueda Alia]

listen Morningstar... I rarely post but I have seen you before in these abortion debates and you do nothing but cause more harm to these debates then good. the first 3 pages were civil and well thought.. we understand your opinion but try to understand others... I was actually enjoying this forum until you got involved.
That's too bad.

If you can prove that I'm making these debates be "not civil," then I'll stop posting. But if you can't, I'll just ban you from the thread. How does that sound?

Ps: I'm being sarcastic about banning you, by the way. Your post is amusing though.

[Broken Parachute]

Yeah, Eda is a virus.

[thejetstolehome]

I've learned that it really doesn't matter to me (not just abortion, but all of politics). I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe..nobody is going to change anything, why do we all fight? It's nonsense.

i don't think it's non-sense to have an open discussion about it. and maybe my stance or your stance won't change but through the discussion, hopefully we can gain a better understanding as to why someone on the otherside feels the way he or she does.

[Lueda Alia]

i never said it was an easy decision. but i think at some time when the baby is able to survive outside of the mother...it is not fair for her to have up until 8 months and 29 days to decide if she wants to have the baby or not.
How many women do you think abort babies at 8 months and 29 days? Not many, unless they need to in order to save their own lives.

[Hidenothing27]

That's so horrible.

A research study that I read a while ago said that most women have an abortion by the time they're 40 years old.


I would love to read that study and find out how they got that statistic... How big was the survey.. and where was it taken.. and what does most* equate to.. if you have any idea who wrote lemme know.. im curious

[Lueda Alia]

Yeah, Eda is a virus.
I should make that my user title. It sounds funny.

[thisisadisaster]

It's all about you though and it does not matter how other people want you to be. You should be your own person.

thats what im trying to do.

its not so much that people are stopping me from progressing, but im stop myself as well. its almost one of those things that i fear doing it because im afraid of what they will say or whatever. reverse peer pressure perhaps. its with everything from how i feel about certain subjects like religion or politics to simple things like drinking, drugs, and sex. its just one of those things thats mentally wrong with me. im trying to teach myself to think differently.

im trying to teach myself to not give a shit what anyone thinks about me. its my life.

[Lueda Alia]

I would love to read that study and find out how they got that statistic... How big was the survey.. and where was it taken.. and what does most* equate to.. if you have any idea who wrote lemme know.. im curious
I'll try to find it.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

Did you not read my post? I said that if you're going to argue that the fetus is a baby and it should have rights just like everyone else, then they should also not be above the law. According to the law, no human being can use someone else's body without their permission. Thus, if the fetus is a human being that deserves to have rights, how can they use someone else's body against that person's will and get away with it? If they deserve the same rights as me, they should also be subject to the same laws.


Then I did understand your post.
You think that fetuses, if human which I believe they are, are breaking the law by being in a woman without her consent.

Except for the case of rape, I'd say that the woman does consent. It isn't the baby's fault if your condom breaks.

[cantnokdahustle]

listen Morningstar... I rarely post but I have seen you before in these abortion debates and you do nothing but cause more harm to these debates then good. the first 3 pages were civil and well thought.. we understand your opinion but try to understand others... I was actually enjoying this forum until you got involved.

Unless that is a picture of your brother or someone you happen to thoroughly admire, I'm not sure your really the most credible source on civility, as it appears to be lampooning the Special Olympics or those with mental disability in general.

[selftitled85]

Did you not read my post? I said that if you're going to argue that the fetus is a baby and it should have rights just like everyone else, then they should also not be above the law. According to the law, no human being can use someone else's body without their permission. Thus, if the fetus is a human being that deserves to have rights, how can they use someone else's body against that person's will and get away with it? If they deserve the same rights as me, they should also be subject to the same laws.

are you kidding me? that is one of the most inept and stupid things ever...im sorry eda.

lets see here:
we are not all equal.
1) you cant drive until a specific age
2) you cannot drink until a specific age
3) you cannot rent a car until a specific age


you see where im going...we dont all have the same rights.

[selftitled85]

How many women do you think abort babies at 8 months and 29 days? Not many, unless they need to in order to save their own lives.

but what you said means that you have the ability to.

and that should not be allowed.

unless the baby IS detrimental to the moms health.

[Broken Parachute]

i don't think it's non-sense to have an open discussion about it. and maybe my stance or your stance won't change but through the discussion, hopefully we can gain a better understanding as to why someone on the otherside feels the way he or she does.No no what I meant was that the fighting was nonsense, not the debate. Don't worry, my opinion on you will never change..I still hate you.

I should make that my user title. It sounds funny.hahaha yes you should.

[Lueda Alia]

are you kidding me? that is one of the most inept and stupid things ever...im sorry eda.

lets see here:
we are not all equal.
1) you cant drive until a specific age
2) you cannot drink until a specific age
3) you cannot rent a car until a specific age


you see where im going...we dont all have the same rights.
No, it's not. Seriously, if you think the fetus is a human being and deserves the same rights as me, shouldn't it be subject to the same laws too? Why would it be OK for a fetus to use my body without my permission, but it wouldn't be OK for someone else to? That just makes no sense.

[cantnokdahustle]

are you kidding me? that is one of the most inept and stupid things ever...im sorry eda.

lets see here:
we are not all equal.
1) you cant drive until a specific age
2) you cannot drink until a specific age
3) you cannot rent a car until a specific age


you see where im going...we dont all have the same rights.

unfortunately most state prosecutors don't stay to this sort of logic when trying people under 18 as adults.

[thejetstolehome]

No no what I meant was that the fighting was nonsense, not the debate. Don't worry, my opinion on you will never change..I still hate you.

hahaha yes you should.

:bluesad:

[cantnokdahustle]

but what you said means that you have the ability to.

and that should not be allowed.

unless the baby IS detrimental to the moms health.

I state again: there are cases where women are unaware that they are pregnant at stage of the process.

[Broken Parachute]

:bluesad:Just kidding. You know I love you. <3

[Lueda Alia]

Then I did understand your post.
You think that fetuses, if human which I believe they are, are breaking the law by being in a woman without her consent.

Except for the case of rape, I'd say that the woman does consent. It isn't the baby's fault if your condom breaks.
The woman agrees to have sex, not to have a baby. I'm talking about the fetus using my body without my permission. That should not be allowed. If you're going to talk about abortion being inhumane, then I'm going to say this: Making a woman go through pregnancy against her will is pretty inhumane too.

I find it amazing how some of you care so much about the fetus and don't stop to think about the women for a while. They're human beings too. I guess it's hard to understand when you'll never experience what it's like to be pregnant.

Ps: As I said, you can still get prengnant even if you use protection. What are you going to say in that case? The people involved weren't being stupid, but it still happened. Should people just never have sex until they can afford to have a child? What about married couples that can't afford to have a child? Should they never have sex too?

[selftitled85]

No, it's not. Seriously, if you think the fetus is a human being and deserves the same rights as me, shouldn't it be subject to the same laws too? Why would it be OK for a fetus to use my body without my permission, but it wouldn't be OK for someone else to? That just makes no sense.

ok so when a child kills someone...whether it be an adult or a kid...the child is put in a juvenile center...and could end up getting out by the time he is 18...an adult kills someone they get life in prison and could end up getting the death penalty. that is a non valid point.

children pretty much have a different set than rules then adults and you know that.

[thejetstolehome]

Just kidding. You know I love you. <3

:giverose:

[Lueda Alia]

ok so when a child kills someone...whether it be an adult or a kid...the child is put in a juvenile center...and could end up getting out by the time he is 18...an adult kills someone they get life in prison and could end up getting the death penalty. that is a non valid point.

children pretty much have a different set than rules then adults and you know that.
That still doesn't mean that the child is above the law.

If we use your logic, then it should be OK for children to use their parents' bodies to some extent. That'd be ridiculous.

[selftitled85]

I state again: there are cases where women are unaware that they are pregnant at stage of the process.

i think by the fifth month you may stumble upon the fact you are pregnant.

at most the sixth

even though you would already have a huge belly.

[cantnokdahustle]

No, it's not. Seriously, if you think the fetus is a human being and deserves the same rights as me, shouldn't it be subject to the same laws too? Why would it be OK for a fetus to use my body without my permission, but it wouldn't be OK for someone else to? That just makes no sense.

to clarify: you are following the logical consequences of the popular argument that the fetus is subject to the same rights as all who fall under the human rights constitution and are thus satirizing this popular opinion, correct?

[selftitled85]

That still doesn't mean that the child is above the law.

If we use your logic, then it should be OK for children to use their parents' bodies to some extent. That'd be ridiculous.

THE CHILD IS NOT ABOVE THE LAW

but is subject to a different set of laws.

[thejetstolehome]

to clarify: you are following the logical consequences of the popular argument that the fetus is subject to the same rights as all who fall under the human rights constitution and are thus satirizing this popular opinion, correct?

i was definitely getting a sarcastic and satirical feel out of those posts, as well.

[selftitled85]

to clarify: you are following the logical consequences of the popular argument that the fetus is subject to the same rights as all who fall under the human rights constitution and are thus satirizing this popular opinion, correct?

which is a ridiculous claim.

[cantnokdahustle]

i think by the fifth month you may stumble upon the fact you are pregnant.

at most the sixth

even though you would already have a huge belly.

again, that is not always the case. Some have very little show, if any at all, and some continue to spot.

[Lueda Alia]

to clarify: you are following the logical consequences of the popular argument that the fetus is subject to the same rights as all who fall under the human rights constitution and are thus satirizing this popular opinion, correct?
Basically.

That argument has so many holes.

[selftitled85]

unfortunately most state prosecutors don't stay to this sort of logic when trying people under 18 as adults.

yes there are incidents where they are charged as adults. but many times...they are not even when it is pretty bad crimes.

[Lueda Alia]

THE CHILD IS NOT ABOVE THE LAW

but is subject to a different set of laws.
What different set of laws should a fetus be subject to in that case then? There's no getting around it, really.

Even if the fetus isn't subject the same laws, the woman still has the same rights you do: She has the right to choose whether someone else can use her body or not.

[cantnokdahustle]

yes there are incidents where they are charged as adults. but many times...they are not even when it is pretty bad crimes.

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Are you stating that babies should not be subject to this, but that it is ok for children to be tried as adults in certain instances?

If I have misrepresented your view, I apologize.

[selftitled85]

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Are you stating that babies should not be subject to this, but that it is ok for children to be tried as adults in certain instances?

If I have misrepresented your view, I apologize.

no im not saying that at times kids should be tried as adults...but that it already is like this.

the court can try to have a child tried like an adult. many times though it does not work.

[cantnokdahustle]

Alright. i still think there is something slightly "off" with the "is/ought" line of your reasoning, but I'm too dim to put my finger on it at the moment.

[Hidenothing27]

What different set of laws should a fetus be subject to in that case then? There's no getting around it, really.

Even if the fetus isn't subject the same laws, the woman still has the same rights you do: She has the right to choose whether someone else can use her body or not.



I kind of get the feeling like you think the fetus went vagina shopping around and liked yours and said "damn this uterus looks comfy...good blood flow and a loose vagina for easy exit" and then told the real estate agent "I'll take it!!!" and then it moved in and set up shop. And now with abortion being your eviction notice you tell it to leave,because it had no right setting up shop in your womb/body. This baby never CHOSE to use your body, you created it with someone else. ( unless it is rape which statistically speaking is rare with rape and conception... though you could use the argument "most rapes are not reported" which is true)

at this point im just having fun... please feel free to comeback with a stereotypical comeback like...

A. Your missing the point dumbass I pointing out a flawed logic
B. Your mom should have had an abortion!!! OHHHH snap

take everything I say with a grain of salt.. so dont get you panties in a bunch

[Lueda Alia]

I kind of get the feeling like you think fetus went vagina shopping around and liked yours and said "damn this uterus looks comfy" and then told the real estate agent "I'll take it!!!" and then it moved in and set up shop. And now with abortion you being eviction notice you tell it to leave cause it had no right setting up shop in your womb. This baby never CHOSE to use your body, you created it with someone else. ( unless it is rape which statistically speaking is rare with rape and conception... though you could use the argument "most rapes are not reported" which is true)
I'm not sure if I'm meant to take that post seriously.

Either way, my posts have already covered everything you're bringing up so feel free to go back and read if you want a reply.

[Hidenothing27]

I'm not sure if I'm meant to take that post seriously.

Either way, my posts have already covered everything you're bringing up so feel free to go back and read if you want a reply.


your not..

[Lueda Alia]

your not..
Haha I just saw the rest of the post (because you edited it) and that shows just how little you know about me. There's no reason to make assumptions about someone just because you can't come up with a good argument. I find it amusing though.

[dai the flu]

didnt read all the posts since this has been done before. but i believe life starts at conception.
scientists recognize single-cell organisms as being alive, why isnt a fetus considered alive?
(and if the argument is made that a fetus can't survive outside the womb, i say big deal. change that single-cell organism's enviroment and it won't survive either. that doesnt make it any less alive.)

so thats my thought. its alive. pro-life.

[cantnokdahustle]

didnt read all the posts since this has been done before. but i believe life starts at conception.
scientists recognize single-cell organisms as being alive, why isnt a fetus considered alive?
(and if the argument is made that a fetus can't survive outside the womb, i say big deal. change that single-cell organism's enviroment and it won't survive either. that doesnt make it any less alive.)

so thats my thought. its alive. pro-life.

We do not give direct moral standing to unicellular organisms. And unless you are a Jainist, neither do you.

[icameonherface]

I'm a guy so my opinion doesn't matter.

1- if the girl wants an abortion and I want to have the kid, its not my decision.
2 - if i don't want to have the kid and she decides to have it, i have to pay child support and take care of the kid.

For awhile, I was like just rape, incest, etc.

but now, i really don't care. Whether it is a sin or not, it is not my sin.

[Jason Tate]

Men should have no "real" opinion on this matter. Your words are for sporting value only.

[Lueda Alia]

Men should have no "real" opinion on this matter. Your words are for sporting value only.
I like the way you think.

[thejetstolehome]

Men should have no "real" opinion on this matter. Your words are for sporting value only.

well, when men are the ones in power who are making the laws, their opinion becomes very real.

EDIT: but, yea, i agree with you.

[Lueda Alia]

well, when men are the ones in power who are making the laws, their opinion becomes very real.

EDIT: but, yea, i agree with you.
Which is why more women should be Politicians. I hate how Politics are dominated by males when women make up half of the population too.

[cantnokdahustle]

Which is why more women should be Politicians. I hate how Politics are dominated by males when women make up half of the population too.

more than.

[The Revisionist]

I'm not voting, but here.

If I get a woman pregnant, I am going to push to keep the kid. I need to "own up" to recognizing that there are consequences from fun actions, and besides, I personally think childbirth and bringing life into the Earth is one of the most amazing acts that can be accomplished, and it is hard for me to see why two consenting adults would not want to raise a child together and help it grow into something full of dreams and beauty. That being said, I understand that I am not going to be the one carrying the child and ultimately it is not my decision, but hopefully when I am in that situation, it will be with somebody that will see eye to eye with me on the outcome.

THAT being said as well, I don't give a shit whether or not somebody else queefs their kid out of their stomach or not, that's not my business. Rape, incest? Put a fork in it, it's done.

[Hidenothing27]

Haha I just saw the rest of the post (because you edited it) and that shows just how little you know about me. There's no reason to make assumptions about someone just because you can't come up with a good argument. I find it amusing though.


good argument??? it has nothing to do with that..I just did not feel like getting involved because I've seen the how ignorant you are in these "debates". Talk about arguments where you come up with this stuff just boggles my mind. Especially the fact that "most.. women have an abortion by 40" where and how the hell was that survey done and how you even "came across it". That survey is nearly impossible to conduct and then to give it a "most". The only way you could get that high of survey is to take it at an abortion clinic. Ahh and this great argument that... well.... it is just pure genius..

"I don't see how anyone can even argue over this. If you're going to tell me that the fetus is a human being, I would just like to say: If it's a human then it should not be above the law; a person cannot user someone else's body without his/her permission because that's illegal."


or...

"Did you not read my post? I said that if you're going to argue that the fetus is a baby and it should have rights just like everyone else, then they should also not be above the law. According to the law, no human being can use someone else's body without their permission. Thus, if the fetus is a human being that deserves to have rights, how can they use someone else's body against that person's will and get away with it? If they deserve the same rights as me, they should also be subject to the same laws."

You act like the fetus uses your body against your own will when you created it because your boyfriends was not quick enough to pull out. Against your own will.. does this thing have you at gunpoint... your logic is completely flawed. If it is holding you against your will and you kill well guess what since its a human you committed murder. The baby is no way shape or form is above the law.

[aminorthreat55]

Which is why more women should be Politicians. I hate how Politics are dominated by males when women make up half of the population too.
Sweden ftw. Highest female government participation in the world.

[captainhampton]

Did you not read my post? I said that if you're going to argue that the fetus is a baby and it should have rights just like everyone else, then they should also not be above the law. According to the law, no human being can use someone else's body without their permission. Thus, if the fetus is a human being that deserves to have rights, how can they use someone else's body against that person's will and get away with it? If they deserve the same rights as me, they should also be subject to the same laws.

say what??

"no jury in the world is gonna convict a baby.......maybe Texas"

[cantnokdahustle]

say what??

"no jury in the world is gonna convict a baby.......maybe Texas"

Be fair now. That baby would have to be retarded.

[Lueda Alia]

good argument??? it has nothing to do with that..I just did not feel like getting involved because I've seen the how ignorant you are in these "debates". Talk about arguments where you come up with this stuff just boggles my mind. Especially the fact that "most.. women have an abortion by 40" where and how the hell was that survey done and how you even "came across it". That survey is nearly impossible to conduct and then to give it a "most". The only way you could get that high of survey is to take it at an abortion clinic. Ahh and this great argument that... well.... it is just pure genius..
Please save those compliments if you want to be a part of this debate. If you can't help yourself, then stay out of them.

Yes, I did read a survey which said something along those lines. If I remember correctly, miscarriages were also taken into account, so it shouldn't be that much of a shock.
You act like the fetus uses your body against your own will when you created it because your boyfriends was not quick enough to pull out. Against your own will.. does this thing have you at gunpoint... your logic is completely flawed. If it is holding you against your will and you kill well guess what since its a human you committed murder. The baby is no way shape or form is above the law.
If my logic is flawed, then so is the "It's a human being and he/she deserves rights just like every other human" logic.

The fetus would be using my body against my will if I wanted to abort it but wasn't allowed.

[Lueda Alia]

say what??

"no jury in the world is gonna convict a baby.......maybe Texas"
Is it that hard to understand what I was getting at? It seems like only a few people actually got it. I'm not surprised.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

Please save those compliments if you want to be a part of this debate. If you can't help yourself, then stay out of them.

Yes, I did read a survey which said something along those lines. If I remember correctly, miscarriages were also taken into account, so it shouldn't be that much of a shock.

If my logic is flawed, then so is the "It's a human being and he/she deserves rights just like every other human" logic.

The fetus would be using my body against my will if I wanted to abort it but wasn't allowed.

Except that the fetus was placed in your body against it's will, due to circumstances out of its control.

[Lueda Alia]

Except that the fetus was placed in your body against it's will, due to circumstances out of its control.
A fetus doesn't have a will.

[tambam]

I think a woman should have the right to do with her body what she sees fit. I, however, do not support women who choose abortions as a method of birth control. If she's on the pill and takes it responsibily, doesn't sleep around like a whore, and somehow gets pregnant, then I think she is justified in getting an abortion. Abortion, of course, in the case of rape or incest shouldn't even be argued. However, if the woman is just plain irresponsible, then the baby shouldn't have to die out of her own stupidity. In that case, adoption should be an option.

[Lueda Alia]

I'm looking at statistics now. I found this interesting since some of you keep saying that people are just irresponsible:

ABORTION AND CONTRACEPTION


Induced abortions usually result from unintended pregnancies, which often occur despite the use of contraception (CDC).
54% of women having abortions used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users reported using the methods inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users reported correct use (AGI).
8% of women having abortions have never used a method of birth control; nonuse is greatest among those who are young, poor, black, Hispanic or poorly educated (AGI).
9 in 10 women at risk of unintended pregnancy are using a contraceptive method (AGI).

From here (http://www.abort73.com/HTML/II-A-abortion_statistics.html).

[Lueda Alia]

For the people who think that having an abortion is the easy way out: Abortion Effects (http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-1-15/36977.html). I hope that after you read that (or other articles if you feel like looking up the issue), you'll never think (let alone say) that having an abortion is the easy way out. It's not. I've never experienced it, but people close to me have (many of them in fact), and I have seen the way they have felt and what they have gone through. It was anything but easy.


Yes, I did read a survey which said something along those lines. If I remember correctly, miscarriages were also taken into account, so it shouldn't be that much of a shock.


I'm trying to find said article, but right now I'm only finding studies/articles which show that 40% of women (in America alone) have an abortion by the time they're 40-45 years old. That's still pretty damn close to 50%.

Approximately 40 percent of American women under 45 have had at least one abortion.
From here (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/de_solenni200403090920.asp).

This other article has even bigger numbers:

An estimated 43% of women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old.

From here (http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/abortion_statistics.htm).

[Hidenothing27]

i dont think anyone has said in this forum that abortion is an easy way out....

[Lueda Alia]

i dont think anyone has said in this forum that abortion is an easy way out....
They have before, and it's implied when they say, "People should be responsible."

I'm surprised you actually posted and didn't call me ignorant for once.

[Hidenothing27]

For the people who think that having an abortion is the easy way out: Abortion Effects (http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-1-15/36977.html). I hope that after you read that (or other articles if you feel like looking up the issue), you'll never think (let alone say) that having an abortion is the easy way out. It's not. I've never experienced it, but people close to me have (many of them in fact), and I have seen the way they have felt and what they have gone through. It was anything but easy.



I'm trying to find said article, but right now I'm only finding studies/articles which show that 40% of women (in America alone) have an abortion by the time they're 40-45 years old. That's still pretty damn close to 50%.


From here (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/de_solenni200403090920.asp).

This other article has even bigger numbers:



From here (http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/abortion_statistics.htm).

no its not close...the difference between 50 and 40 is 10... and 10 percent would be millions of people so.... no.. it is not close... not at all...

[Lueda Alia]

no its not close...the difference between 50 and 40 is 10... and 10 percent would be millions of people so.... no.. it is not close... not at all...
It still proves that almost half of the women have an abortion at some point in their life. Sure, I said "most" and maybe that's not the case, but at least it shows that I didn't pull that line out of nowhere. Those statistics are only from the US anyway, so who knows what it's like in the rest of the world? Maybe I'll find another article.

Anyway, you seemed to think like I was crazy when I told you something along those lines. I guess now you know I really am not that crazy.

[Hidenothing27]

when people say be responsible they mean... safe sex, birth control, etc.... I dont think you should have sex without realizing a fetus can takeover womb? right?? c'mon you can identify with that?

[Lueda Alia]

when people say be responsible they mean... safe sex, birth control, etc.... I dont think you should have sex without realizing a fetus can takeover womb? right?? c'mon you can identify with that?
No, that's not what I meant. When they say "People should be responsible," they're talking about "owning up and keeping the child."

Of course I think people should be responsible before/when they have sex. That's not even a question. But to say that someone is irresponsible for having an abortion is ridiculous.

[Hidenothing27]

no... i still think your crazy... Being that the data is not readily available to make that assumption. A census cost millions of dollars and these people did a survey... I dont know if have taken college stat but you learn about these studies.

[Lueda Alia]

no... i still think your crazy... Being that the data is not readily available to make that assumption. A census cost millions of dollars and these people did a survey... I dont know if have taken college stat but you learn about these studies.
I give up. I showed you an article when you acted as if I was completely off, which is not the case, and now you're just turning this into something else.

Have fun debating alone or with someone that can handle these kind of posts. Jason should be around because he loves debating with people like you.

[Hidenothing27]

It just comes down to different views... i dont think people mean own up and keep it.. they could give that child up for adoption and give it to a family who want a baby and cant have one. In the end it comes down to our opinions.. which lets admit probably will not change. abortion will never go away and both groups need to come together and work together to decrease the abortions by finding out what affect the womens decisions.. no matter what side you are on.. abortion is not fun for either side

[shes.a.ghost]

I see every side to it. But you have to be in the situation to really know what you are. I was pro life, but then my girlfriend and I thought she was pregnant. It's funny how fast you lose your morals when it's actually happening to you. I'm pro-choice now.

[Hidenothing27]

"jason should be around because he loves debating people like you" that was a great comment!! Really stung... people like me... hey... have a goodnight I hope a fetus does not take over your vagina

[cantnokdahustle]

I see every side to it. But you have to be in the situation to really know what you are. I was pro life, but then my girlfriend and I thought she was pregnant. It's funny how fast you lose your morals when it's actually happening to you. I'm pro-choice now.

you didn't lose your morals, you just re-evaluated them.

[cantnokdahustle]

"jason should be around because he loves debating people like you" that was a great comment!! Really stung... people like me... hey... have a goodnight I hope a fetus does not take over your vagina

A fetus can not overtake a vagina in the span of a night... but a zygote can! :-0

[Lueda Alia]

you didn't lose your morals, you just re-evaluated them.
Exactly. I don't think I could ever have an abortion, but I don't think that having one is immoral.

[Lueda Alia]

A fetus can not overtake a vagina in the span of a night... but a zygote can! :-0
He's not a big fan of facts, as you can see.

[shes.a.ghost]

Exactly. I don't think I could ever have an abortion, but I don't think that having one is immoral.Thats what my girlfriend thought as well. The truth is you never really know until you are in the situation. I'm not saying you would change your mind, I'm just stating that all these pro-life people really don't know what it's like to really make that decision until they are face to face with it themselves.

[boldt_action]

I remember the last debate we had like this.


It got heated, and my opinions weren't as formed as they are now, but i stick to the, in certain circumstances. I really don't want to get into it. I don't force my beliefs on others, that is simply the way I look at it. Now, if you asked what i thought the law should be, I think it should be pro-choice. As it is not the job of the church to dictate what becomes law. If a country has decided that it is not murder, then it should be allowed. I would hope that people would be educated on both sides so they would be able to make an educated choice, and not one that stands on 'I don't want to be pregnant'. I guess it's the immaturity in some situations that irks me.

[Lueda Alia]

Thats what my girlfriend thought as well. The truth is you never really know until you are in the situation. I'm not saying you would change your mind, I'm just stating that all these pro-life people really don't know what it's like to really make that decision until they are face to face with it themselves.
Oh, I know. I always wonder what I'd do if I was in that situation, hence why I said "I don't think." I guess I really don't know though. Part of me would want to keep it, but the other part... not so much. The only reason I'd ever consider keeping it is because of my (good) relationship, if you know what I mean.

[shes.a.ghost]

It's funny that this was even brought up because I had a "pregnancy scare" today. The girl I have been seeing randomly sends me a text message saying "Hypothetically speaking, if you were to get a girl pregnant would you want her to keep it?" I instantly started freaking out. Long story short her friend has a boyfriend, but is pregnant with another guys baby (jerry springer type stuff) so she thought it would be a good idea to ask my opinion on the matter, without explaining it to me first... What guy wouldn't think she was implying that SHE could be pregnant? Whew, it's not a feeling you want to have.

[cantnokdahustle]

try six weeks late.

[tambam]

It's funny that this was even brought up because I had a "pregnancy scare" today. The girl I have been seeing randomly sends me a text message saying "Hypothetically speaking, if you were to get a girl pregnant would you want her to keep it?" I instantly started freaking out. Long story short her friend has a boyfriend, but is pregnant with another guys baby (jerry springer type stuff) so she thought it would be a good idea to ask my opinion on the matter, without explaining it to me first... What guy wouldn't think she was implying that SHE could be pregnant? Whew, it's not a feeling you want to have.

Hahaha, wow. That's cruel.

[icameonherface]

Men should have no "real" opinion on this matter. Your words are for sporting value only.

yeah thats pretty much what I said.

[JulieLynn]

I'm on the fence about this one.

for myself, i'm pro life.

But for any other woman, its her life and her choice to make. If a friend of mine got pregnant and she decided to get an abortion, i would support her 100% because that is her choice to make, not mine.

[a speedo model]

Pro Life.

[thatwasamoment]

Pro Life.not even "only certain circumstances"?

[a speedo model]

not even "only certain circumstances"?
Not even.

[JulieLynn]

Not even.

ilu:-)

[a speedo model]

ilu:-)
Thank you. :-)

[Sleepaway]

Personally, I am against abortion. I think if you don't take precaution and get pregnant because of your own actions then you need to get some resposibility and give the kid a chance at life.

[thatwasamoment]

Personally, I am against abortion. I think if you don't take precaution and get pregnant because of your own actions then you need to get some resposibility and give the kid a chance at life.Well that's what theres "certain circumstances" category. If my mom was raped and impregnated, I'm sure she would want to get an abortion.

[a speedo model]

Well that's what theres "certain circumstances" category. If my mom was raped and impregnated, I'm sure she would want to get an abortion.
I see this as in illogical view. It's saying two wrongs make a right.

[JulieLynn]

I see this as in illogical view. It's saying two wrongs make a right.

What about the morning after pill for women who have been raped?

see this is why i'm on the fence. but at the same time, i'm on the pill. but if something like that were to happen to me, i'd probably do the morning after pill just incase.

If i were to have sex with a new man in my life, and we got pregnant, and we werent ready for it, i'd keep it, no questions asked, even if i had to be a single mom.

[Hidenothing27]

He's not a big fan of facts, as you can see.


hahah right you are as dumb as your arguments... you do the math... Your article states that 40 million abortions have since it has been legalized.


so 40,000,000(abortions)/151,783,235 (women population) Now that population is a very generous one because does not even take into context the growth of the population and the women that died in the span that abortion has been legal. Let alone the countless women into the range of the 45 years.

Break out that caculator and see by dividing those numbers your percent is...... 26%

26% have taken an abortion... not 40% not MOST like you originally said..Your article is not a FACT... just because it is on some website does not make it a fact.. those sites provide no indication on how big the sample is and where and when it was taken.

[thejetstolehome]

I see this as in illogical view. It's saying two wrongs make a right.

so if your sister was raped and impregnated, you'd want her to keep the baby anyway?

[a speedo model]

so if your sister was raped and impregnated, you'd want her to keep the baby anyway?
I would be pissed off and I probably wouldn't want her to to keep it, but I would still believe that nothing that happend was in anyway the baby's fault and I still wouldn't believe killing it would solve a thing. Personal feelings do not change something that is simply wrong. It's still not right.

[icameonherface]

hahah right you are a dumb bitch... you do the math... Your article states that 40 million abortions have since it has been legalized.


so 40,000,000(abortions)/151,783,235 (women population) Now that population does not even take into context the growth of the population and the women that died in the span that abortion has been legal. now do the math

26% have taken an abortion... not 40% not MOST like you originally said..Your article is not a FACT... just because it is on some website does not make it a fact.. those sites provide no indication on how big the sample is and where and when it was taken.
151,783,235

you'll be banned.

[Hidenothing27]

I really do not care.. since 2004 i posted 300 some times.. I have nothing on the people who have 30,000-40,000 posts... and lets be honest its kinda scary that people spend have those kind of numbers.

[icameonherface]

I really do not care.. since 2004 i posted 300 some times.. I have nothing on the people who have 30,000-40,000 posts... and lets be honest its kinda scary that people spend have those kind of numbers.

she's a moderator.

[Hidenothing27]

she's a moderator.


that does not change a thing.

[icameonherface]

that does not change a thing.

its why her posts are so high.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

I really do not care.. since 2004 i posted 300 some times.. I have nothing on the people who have 30,000-40,000 posts... and lets be honest its kinda scary that people spend have those kind of numbers.


this is a discussion board
making fun of people for using it is idiotic

[thejetstolehome]

oh and i think we determined a few pages ago that what Eda was doing was sarcastic or satrical.

[Lueda Alia]

hahah right you are as dumb as your arguments... you do the math... Your article states that 40 million abortions have since it has been legalized.

Your article is not a FACT... just because it is on some website does not make it a fact.. those sites provide no indication on how big the sample is and where and when it was taken.
It's still statistics. If we go by your logic, we can't ever trust any statistics. That's just ridiculous and not true.

Do I think you're ignorant? Absolutely. Am I calling you any names? Absolutely not. If you can't do the same, then I suggest you leave the thread. I hate banning people, but if you don't stop calling me names and participate in this discussion in a civil way, then I'll be forced to ban you.
its why her posts are so high.
Where are you going with this? I'm a little confused. My post count is high because I've been on AP for years, so I don't know what you're talking about; unless you're being sarcastic for no reason.

oh and i think we determined a few pages ago that what Eda was doing was sarcastic or satrical.
Seriously.

[Lueda Alia]

I would be pissed off and I probably wouldn't want her to to keep it, but I would still believe that nothing that happend was in anyway the baby's fault and I still wouldn't believe killing it would solve a thing. Personal feelings do not change something that is simply wrong. It's still not right.
I think it's disgusting to force a woman to keep a "child" when she's been raped. I don't know how anyone can be OK with that.

[icameonherface]

Where are you going with this? I'm a little confused. My post count is high because I've been on AP for years, so I don't know what you're talking about; unless you're being sarcastic for no reason.


i was moreso defending you.

[Lueda Alia]

i was moreso defending you.
It was kind of hard to tell, but thank you. :-)

[icameonherface]

It was kind of hard to tell, but thank you. :-)

you're welcome.

[Love As Arson]

"Responsibility" is a term that is reoccurring in this debate, however, how can those in the self-responsibility camp be certain that abortion is not the most responsible action for a woman to take? Is it more responsible to bring a child that they've no emotional connection to and no ability to take care of into the world, or is the responsible thing to eliminate the fetus? Moreover, the moral argument is inapplicable, as the fetus is worth no more moral value than a tissue, therefore subject to the will of the individual upon which it relies. The ideology of life beginning at conception inevitably leads to an infinite regress, where even semen is as valuable as a child, or Holocaust victim as some pro-lifers like to compare. Furthermore, I tend to believe the pro-life advocates are completely disingenuous. That is, abortion is viewed as immoral, not because the existence of the fetus is put to an end, rather because it is quite a sloppy process. However, if abortions were able to be carried out simply through a shot in the arm and the fetus were to dissolve, I do not imagine many people would take issue with it, as it does not turn the stomach.

[Lueda Alia]

"Responsibility" is a term that is reoccurring in this debate, however, how can those in the self-responsibility camp be certain that abortion is not the most responsible action for a woman to take? Is it more responsible to bring a child that they've no emotional connection to and no ability to take care of into the world, or is the responsible thing to eliminate the fetus?

Exactly. That's what I was trying to say about abortion not being the easy way out or the irresponsible thing to do.

[IAPAI]

Personally, I am against abortion. I think if you don't take precaution and get pregnant because of your own actions then you need to get some resposibility and give the kid a chance at life.

Let's take a look at how well people "get some responsibility".

Police have charged an Ohio woman in the death, by microwave oven, of her one-month-old daughter, the Associated Press reports.

A West Prince man accused of putting a baby in a freezer last spring was in court in Summerside Wednesday to face more charges.

Derrick Leigh Hardy is now facing five charges, including abandoning a child, criminal negligence causing bodily harm and forcible confinement.

With a calm and dispassionate voice and a hymn playing in the background, Dena Schlosser (search) confessed to the unthinkable, telling a 911 operator she'd cut off the arms of her baby girl.

Sure, much of this can be attributed to Post-Partum depression, but the fact of the matter is that many women who have children are not mentally prepared for it. Why would you want to force unfit parents have children? If they were not financially stable, if they didn't have proper living arrangements, if they were so stupid that they didn't know they should have used protection? Do you want those kinds of people being forced to raise a child? I sure don't.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

hahah right you are as dumb as your arguments... you do the math... Your article states that 40 million abortions have since it has been legalized.


so 40,000,000(abortions)/151,783,235 (women population) Now that population is a very generous one because does not even take into context the growth of the population and the women that died in the span that abortion has been legal. Let alone the countless women into the range of the 45 years.

Break out that caculator and see by dividing those numbers your percent is...... 26%

26% have taken an abortion... not 40% not MOST like you originally said..Your article is not a FACT... just because it is on some website does not make it a fact.. those sites provide no indication on how big the sample is and where and when it was taken.


for the record, even though you edited it. you disgust me when you call any female that name.

[Lueda Alia]

for the record, even though you edited it. you disgust me when you call any female that name.
In my opinion, people resort to personal attacks when they have nothing better to say. Personal attacks should be left out of debates.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

In my opinion, people resort to personal attacks when they have nothing better to say. Personal attacks should be left out of debates.


word

[icameonherface]

In my opinion, people resort to personal attacks when they have nothing better to say. Personal attacks should be left out of debates.
tell that to Tate.

[thejetstolehome]

"Responsibility" is a term that is reoccurring in this debate, however, how can those in the self-responsibility camp be certain that abortion is not the most responsible action for a woman to take? Is it more responsible to bring a child that they've no emotional connection to and no ability to take care of into the world, or is the responsible thing to eliminate the fetus?

agreed in full.

In my opinion, people resort to personal attacks when they have nothing better to say. Personal attacks should be left out of debates.

shut up, terrorist.

[tambam]

for the record, even though you edited it. you disgust me when you call any female that name.

:buddies:

[Shatter590]

pro choice.

tho i did find something interesting in a friend. I asked him to give me an argument against abortion that was not biblically motivated, and he made an interesting one:

According to the Decleration of Independence, every american is entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. By aborting, you're denying a future american those rights.

Im not saying I agree, just that I found it interesting how he justified his pro-life views.

[captainhampton]

Do I think you're ignorant? Absolutely. Am I calling you any names? Absolutely not. If you can't do the same, then I suggest you leave the thread. I hate banning people, but if you don't stop calling me names and participate in this discussion in a civil way, then I'll be forced to ban you.
Seriously.
do you have the ability to ban Tate? because if the person in charge of this site resorts to name calling on a daily basis can get away with it, then no one else should be banned for it.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

All of you pro-lifers are ignoring one fact. One day the fetus you save is going to want an abortion. There's only one way to end the cycle. Think about it. No babies = no abortions. Vote against life.

[Lueda Alia]

pro choice.

tho i did find something interesting in a friend. I asked him to give me an argument against abortion that was not biblically motivated, and he made an interesting one:

According to the Decleration of Independence, every american is entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. By aborting, you're denying a future american those rights.

Im not saying I agree, just that I found it interesting how he justified his pro-life views.
The same logic could be used about sperm. Should we make masturbation illegal too?

[Lueda Alia]

do you have the ability to ban Tate? because if the person in charge of this site resorts to name calling on a daily basis can get away with it, then no one else should be banned for it.
It's his own website, so he can do whatever he pleases.

[Shatter590]

The same logic could be used about sperm. Should we make masturbation illegal too?

i can see where you get that from, but sperm by itself cannot create life. Believe me, he had thought about that.

And again, im not saying i agree, just that it was an interesting argument.

[icameonherface]

The same logic could be used about sperm. Should we make masturbation illegal too?

no masturbation would be the same thing as the menstrual cycle.

[MusicalSpirit]

Pro-Choice.

Seriously, if a woman thinks she's not able, not fit, or not ready to have a baby...why subject the baby to the life that the woman thinks is unfit. The conditions could result in raising the child in a risky environment, and the chances that the kid will become a high school drop out, end up in jail, or wind up dead, drastically increase. Why chance putting a child through that?

I mean obviously, not always does the child end up in a bad family or under risky conditions just because the woman doesn't want to have a baby, but if women have the choice, and a woman's not ready, then so be it. She's NOT READY to handle or raise a child.

There should be less money and arguement put into the Pro-Choice/Pro-Life debates, and more put into ways to teach and allow teenagers and most women to use protection.

[Lueda Alia]

i can see where you get that from, but sperm by itself cannot create life. Believe me, he had thought about that.

And again, im not saying i agree, just that it was an interesting argument.
I see it the same way. You're wasting something that has the potential to be a life.

If you're going to argue that it's completely different, go read the other pages because my thoughts apply to this argument too. If you're saying that the fetus should have the same rights as me, that's fine. But the last time I checked, I didn't have the right to use my mom's body or her organs without her permission, so the fetus can't use mine either if I don't want it to.

[Lueda Alia]

There should be less money and arguement put into the Pro-Choice/Pro-Life debates, and more put into ways to teach and allow teenagers and most women to use protection.
Exactly.

Abortions rates are lower in Canada and I'm sure it's because we have a better education system when it comes to sex. We don't really bother teaching abstinence as much.

[Shatter590]

I see it the same way. You're wasting something that has the potential to be a life.

If you're going to argue that it's completely different, go read the other pages because my thoughts apply to this argument too. If you're saying that the fetus should have the same rights as me, that's fine. But the last time I checked, I didn't have the right to use my mom's body or her organs without her permission, so the fetus can't use mine either if I don't want it to.

i find that a bit extreme, but to each their own

[Shatter590]

Pro-Choice.

Seriously, if a woman thinks she's not able, not fit, or not ready to have a baby...why subject the baby to the life that the woman thinks is unfit. The conditions could result in raising the child in a risky environment, and the chances that the kid will become a high school drop out, end up in jail, or wind up dead, drastically increase. Why chance putting a child through that?

I mean obviously, not always does the child end up in a bad family or under risky conditions just because the woman doesn't want to have a baby, but if women have the choice, and a woman's not ready, then so be it. She's NOT READY to handle or raise a child.

There should be less money and arguement put into the Pro-Choice/Pro-Life debates, and more put into ways to teach and allow teenagers and most women to use protection.

they tried to do that in NY about a decade ago, and parents went ballistic over it.

[Lueda Alia]

i find that a bit extreme, but to each their own
How is it extreme? If you're telling me that it should be OK for the fetus to use my body while I can't use my mom's without her permission, then you're doing more than just giving it the same rights: you're putting it above the law and giving it more rights than me.

[MusicalSpirit]

they tried to do that in NY about a decade ago, and parents went ballistic over it.

Ballistic over what? Teaching their teenage daughter to use protection if she decides to have sex?

[Shatter590]

Ballistic over what? Teaching their teenage daughter to use protection if she decides to have sex?

i forget why, but there was a huge outcry over it. i think it was catholics and birth control or something, but there was a hullabaloo over it

[Lueda Alia]

i forget why, but there was a huge outcry over it. i think it was catholics and birth control or something, but there was a hullabaloo over it
Times change. I don't doubt that there will be people who oppose it, but that doesn't matter. People always oppose change even though it's for the better sometimes.

[Shatter590]

How is it extreme? If you're telling me that it should be OK for the fetus to use my body while I can't use my mom's without her permission, then you're doing more than just giving it the same rights: you're putting it above the law and giving it more rights than me.

i see your logic and i understand what youre saying. i just find your reaction a bit extreme, especially when I'm not pro life and simply expressing something i found interesting.

[MusicalSpirit]

lol...so don't get on birth control. Use condoms. Do something.

I don't know. I might sound really anit-catholic right now...and no offense to any catholics out there b/c I was raised as one when I was younger...but teaching their child that birth control is wrong is ridiculous to me. Teenagers are going to be teenagers no matter what religion you are. It sounds even more like a sin to have a kid at 13 than to just get on birth control to try and prevent it.

I don't know. Maybe I just don't have all the details. (Once again, not trying IN THE LEAST to sound offensive) I just don't get why it's such a big deal.

[Lueda Alia]

i see your logic and i understand what youre saying. i just find your reaction a bit extreme, especially when I'm not pro life and simply expressing something i found interesting.
Oh, I know it's not really what you believe in. I don't see how my reaction was "extreme" when I'm just debating. You brought something up and I told you what I think about it.

[Shatter590]

Oh, I know it's not really what you believe in. I don't see how my reaction was "extreme" when I'm just debating. You brought something up and I told you what I think about it.

i just felt a little, um...taken back. like you were yelling at me about it.

[icameonherface]

if it isn't a universal law, let the people who do it live with their beliefs whether it is a sin or not.

Lying is morally wrong, but people do it. There are no laws against it.

[Lueda Alia]

i just felt a little, um...taken back. like you were yelling at me about it.
I'm sorry. I wasn't though. How can you even think someone is yelling unless they're typing in caps? :-D

Oh well, I didn't anyway. :-)

[Lueda Alia]

if it isn't a universal law, let the people who do it live with their beliefs whether it is a sin or not.

Lying is morally wrong, but people do it. There are no laws against it.
That's what I think. Everyone should just decide for themselves.

[Shatter590]

I'm sorry. I wasn't though. How can you even think someone is yelling unless they're typing in caps? :-D

Oh well, I didn't anyway. :-)

its your fire Eda. One can feel it even over the internet ;p

[Lueda Alia]

its your fire Eda. One can feel it even over the internet ;p
It must be because I'm European... or maybe just a terrorist (as Matt likes to call me).

[icameonherface]

That's what I think. Everyone should just decide for themselves.

same thing goes for gay marriage, and stem cell research.

With regards to stem cell research, I don't think they're should be any federal law, but on the other side I don't think there should be federal funding.

I'd prefer it to be state voted funding because then at least actual people vote.

[Shatter590]

It must be because I'm European... or maybe just a terrorist (as Matt likes to call me).

lol. hopefully, i will die a European.

im all for less federal power, more state control. just makes more sense.

[icameonherface]

lol. hopefully, i will die a European.

im all for less federal power, more state control. just makes more sense.

in europe don't the European federals have more control?

[Shatter590]

in europe don't the European federals have more control?

i think so. but bear in mind, european nations are smaller, and more...homogenous than the US is. our very fabric of multiculturalism is what makes federal regulation a hard sell. what goes in one region often doesnt in another. European nations, with far smaller populations and regions, should have an easier time to regulating things federally.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

i can understand why people have a problem with abstinence only sex education
but why would you not teach abstinence as the safest way, when it clearly is
you dont have to bring religion into it at all for that to be true

[Shatter590]

i can understand why people have a problem with abstinence only sex education
but why would you not teach abstinence as the safest way, when it clearly is
you dont have to bring religion into it at all for that to be true

because sometimes logic doesnt apply to people in the world

[Lueda Alia]

i can understand why people have a problem with abstinence only sex education
but why would you not teach abstinence as the safest way, when it clearly is
you dont have to bring religion into it at all for that to be true
That's true, but I would guess that anyone in high school would know that you can avoid being pregnant by not having sex. I just don't see what there is to teach about it, I guess.

[Lueda Alia]

because sometimes logic doesnt apply to people in the world
The thing is, that kind of system is proving to be worse. As I said, abortion and pregnancy rates (among teenagers) are lower in Canada and I'm almost 100% sure that it's because of our education system.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

That's true, but I would guess that anyone in high school would know that you can avoid being pregnant by not having sex. I just don't see what there is to teach about it, I guess.


thats fair
i just think, for the sake of argument, that its worth mentioning as opposed to throwing it out in the name of sexual liberation.

and by the way, i dont for a second think that abortion is the "easy way out'.
just didnt want to get lumped in with that thought

[Shatter590]

The thing is, that kind of system is proving to be worse. As I said, abortion and pregnancy rates (among teenagers) are lower in Canada and I'm almost 100% sure that it's because of our education system.

of that i have little doubt. But ive also seen that Canadians are...how do i put this without sounding harsh...they have more common sense and are more open to education and listening that people in the US. Of the year i spent living there, I felt that the people (at least of Toronto) were more open and willing to discuss things, and less overtly adamant about views.

[Lueda Alia]

thats fair
i just think, for the sake of argument, that its worth mentioning as opposed to throwing it out in the name of sexual liberation.

and by the way, i dont for a second think that abortion is the "easy way out'.
just didnt want to get lumped in with that thought
In my experience, the nurse did mention abstinence but at the very end. She just said, "Only abstinence will protect you 100%." I think that's all there is to say about it. What more can you say, really? What can you teach about abstinence that people don't know?

I found Sex Ed so helpful. Of course I knew about condoms and the pills, but I didn't know about a lot of other methods that are available. I had no plans to have sex anytime soon back then, but I still found the information very important and useful in the future.

[Shatter590]

In my experience, the nurse did mention abstinence but at the very end. She just said, "Only abstinence will protect you 100%." I think that's all there is to say about it. What more can you say, really? What can you teach about abstinence that people don't know?

I found Sex Ed so helpful. Of course I knew about condoms and the pills, but I didn't know about a lot of other methods that are available. I had no plans to have sex anytime soon back then, but I still found the information very important and useful in the future.

this is where it gets weird with me. Sex Ed in my school was required, but so many parents objected to it. its like they felt the simple concept of sex was so taboo that they didnt want it taught in school.

[thejetstolehome]

i can understand why people have a problem with abstinence only sex education
but why would you not teach abstinence as the safest way, when it clearly is
you dont have to bring religion into it at all for that to be true

there's nothing wrong with teaching to abstain from sex but part of that should be instructing the kids, who are most likely going to have sex anyway, what to do/what to use as protection when they do.

sorry if that was said already.

[aolsux]

i can understand why people have a problem with abstinence only sex education
but why would you not teach abstinence as the safest way, when it clearly is
you dont have to bring religion into it at all for that to be true
because people like sex for sex purposes, teaching abstinence only sex ed, teaches people that the only course of action in a sexual situation is to abstain (wait until marriage), only increases the chance that the people taught "abstinence only" to have unprotected, birth control free sex

[icameonherface]

because people like sex for sex purposes, teaching abstinence only sex ed, teaches people that the only course of action in a sexual situation is to abstain (wait until marriage), only increases the chance that the people taught "abstinence only" to have unprotected, birth control free sex

i was never taught abstinence.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

because people like sex for sex purposes, teaching abstinence only sex ed, teaches people that the only course of action in a sexual situation is to abstain (wait until marriage), only increases the chance that the people taught "abstinence only" to have unprotected, birth control free sex


as I said I understand the problems with abstinence only sex education

[MusicalSpirit]

That's true, but I would guess that anyone in high school would know that you can avoid being pregnant by not having sex. I just don't see what there is to teach about it, I guess.

So maybe by the time you're in highschool, you do know that your supposed to use protection. The only problem is that girls don't. That's the problem.

[Jason Tate]

Three months after South Dakota voters rejected an abortion ban at the polls by a 56-44 margin, state legislators have introduced another “sweeping abortion bill (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/16592582.htm)…that supporters hope will lead to a legal challenge of Roe v. Wade.” The ban rejected in November was “extreme (http://www.msmagazine.com/news/uswirestory.asp?ID=10128), allowing for abortion only in instances to prevent the death of a woman. The revised ban, titled the ‘Women’s Health and Human Life Protection Act,’ offers additional exceptions, though they are very narrowly defined.”
Ms. Magazine reports (http://www.msmagazine.com/news/uswirestory.asp?ID=10128):
In addition to preventing the death of a woman, an abortion may be obtained in cases of rape or incest, but the victim must report the rape to the police within 50 days, the physician must obtain a copy of the report record, and the victim must provide either the name and last known address or a description of the alleged rapist to law enforcement. Furthermore, the physician would be required to take blood samples from the woman and the fetus to be submitted to law enforcement.
In the case of incest, a doctor “would have to get the woman’s consent to report the crime along with the identity of the alleged perpetrator (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/16592582.htm) before an abortion could be performed. Blood samples from fetuses would have to be provided to police in incest cases too.”
Also, the penalties outlined in the new bill are “much more severe than last year’s bill (http://www.msmagazine.com/news/uswirestory.asp?ID=10128). Any physician who performs an abortion outside the guidelines of the bill would be guilty of a class-four felony and could face up to 10 years in jail.”

[Lueda Alia]

Three months after South Dakota voters rejected an abortion ban at the polls by a 56-44 margin, state legislators have introduced another “sweeping abortion bill (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/16592582.htm)…that supporters hope will lead to a legal challenge of Roe v. Wade.” The ban rejected in November was “extreme (http://www.msmagazine.com/news/uswirestory.asp?ID=10128), allowing for abortion only in instances to prevent the death of a woman. The revised ban, titled the ‘Women’s Health and Human Life Protection Act,’ offers additional exceptions, though they are very narrowly defined.”
Ms. Magazine reports (http://www.msmagazine.com/news/uswirestory.asp?ID=10128):
In addition to preventing the death of a woman, an abortion may be obtained in cases of rape or incest, but the victim must report the rape to the police within 50 days, the physician must obtain a copy of the report record, and the victim must provide either the name and last known address or a description of the alleged rapist to law enforcement. Furthermore, the physician would be required to take blood samples from the woman and the fetus to be submitted to law enforcement.
In the case of incest, a doctor “would have to get the woman’s consent to report the crime along with the identity of the alleged perpetrator (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/16592582.htm) before an abortion could be performed. Blood samples from fetuses would have to be provided to police in incest cases too.”
Also, the penalties outlined in the new bill are “much more severe than last year’s bill (http://www.msmagazine.com/news/uswirestory.asp?ID=10128). Any physician who performs an abortion outside the guidelines of the bill would be guilty of a class-four felony and could face up to 10 years in jail.”
I can't believe this.

[Sleepaway]

Let's take a look at how well people "get some responsibility".







Sure, much of this can be attributed to Post-Partum depression, but the fact of the matter is that many women who have children are not mentally prepared for it. Why would you want to force unfit parents have children? If they were not financially stable, if they didn't have proper living arrangements, if they were so stupid that they didn't know they should have used protection? Do you want those kinds of people being forced to raise a child? I sure don't.


I wasn't arguing anything in my post, I was just stating my opinion. I am pro-life because that is what I feel is the honourable thing to do. That will only change under extreme circumstances.

[thejetstolehome]

I wasn't arguing anything in my post, I was just stating my opinion. I am pro-life because that is what I feel is the honourable thing to do. That will only change under extreme circumstances.

what if the mother and father have no way of supporting the child that the zygote will eventually become? is bringing a child that they can't support into the world honorable?

[tambam]

what if the mother and father have no way of supporting the child that the zygote will eventually become? is bringing a child that they can't support into the world honorable?


Well, there's always adoption. I haven't really seen that spoken of much.

[thatwasamoment]

Well, there's always adoption. I haven't really seen that spoken of much.hm, who pays for the birth? the adopters? or the woman who gave birth?

[thejetstolehome]

Well, there's always adoption. I haven't really seen that spoken of much.

that's true but being raised by foster parents is always a little iffy.

[Lueda Alia]

Well, there's always adoption. I haven't really seen that spoken of much.
How many children do you and others plan to adopt? If everyone decided to give a child up for adoption instead of having an abortion, there would be too many children. I wish people would adopt more children, but the sad reality is that many don't.

Plus, you have to think about all the things the mother has to go through for 9 months. That's not easy because she won't be able to work, nor will she feel great or in good shape. Being pregnant is not easy, so you can't really force that on someone.

[tambam]

hm, who pays for the birth? the adopters? or the woman who gave birth?

I'm just saying that if they can't financially support the kid that they brought into existance, then adoption should be another option that is seriously considered.

[Lueda Alia]

that's true but being raised by foster parents is always a little iffy.
That's if anyone adopts you in the first place.

[tambam]

How many children do you and others plan to adopt? If everyone decided to give a child up for adoption instead of having an abortion, there would be too many children. I wish people would adopt more children, but the sad reality is that many don't.

Plus, you have to think about all the things the mother has to go through for 9 months. That's not easy because she won't be able to work, nor will she feel great or in good shape. Being pregnant is not easy, so you can't really force that on someone.

I'm not saying it should be forced, I just think it should be an option. And I also didn't say that everyone that has had an abortion should have given up the child for adoption. I just think it should be seriously considered, as I assume the couple would be fully aware of the consequences that comes out of having sex.

I don't know, I just personally would take being adopted over being aborted anyday. But that's just me. Don't get me wrong, though, I also don't think a woman should be forced to go through pregnancy if she doesn't want to.

[tambam]

that's true but being raised by foster parents is always a little iffy.

Well, there's a difference between foster parents and people that raise you permanently.