Guns

[Jason Tate]

Joe Citizen's ancestors probably hunted for survival, and the tradition was passed through generations of his family. It's become a sport because hunting is no longer necessary to feed one's family. And, you know, he finds shooting things fun. Just look at the most popular video games, for example. Find the common element.
Tradition is not reason enough to keep anything going. This does nothing to answer my question of purpose. Because it's "fun"?

[<*)))><]

In places like upstate New York the closest supermarket is about an half an hour to an hour away and it far easier to shoot a deer, skin it and cook it then it is to go food shopping.

[Machu505]

Tradition is not reason enough to keep anything going. This does nothing to answer my question of purpose. Because it's "fun"? What's the purpose of football?

[Scrandon]

How are you drawing that conclusion?
The following countries all have a relatively equal amount of guns per capita. They also have homicide rates that are nowhere near equal to each other.

France: 1/3 as many guns per capita as U.S. - 1/17 homicide rate
Finland: 1/3 as many guns per capita as U.S. - 1/9 homicide rate
Greece: 1/3 as many guns per capita as U.S. - 1/13 homicide rate
Canada: 1/3 as many guns per capita as U.S. - 1/10 homicide rate
Sweden: 1/3 as many guns per capita as U.S. - 1/38 homicide rate.
If we had no guns, the homicide rate would drop for sure.
If we had "no guns", only criminals would have guns.

[Jason Tate]

What's the purpose of football?
Money.

[Love As Arson]

I'd say education was paramount to this ... but then laughed at the idea that we can barely teach safe sex in school, so the idea of educating our society into a new cultural direction -- seems like a pipe dream.
I do think controls need to be more strict. On the other hand, if violence wasn't paramount to the American way of life, then I doubt we would see this; there is also something to be said about the cutthroat way in which we assign status to people. There was a story recently about a guy who shot people in a workplace and committed suicide, and come to find out they were quite racist and disempowering. I don't think prohibition will fix any of this. Maybe, as you said, education and social reforms are the answer. I know, in the neighborhood I group in, having a gun is sort of like a right of passage and an economic tool for the only trades we had, e.g., drug dealing or robbery.

[Machu505]

Money. There's professional hunting. Midget league through college football doesn't pay.

[caveBEAR]

X-)

Can we ignore the people who actually hunt as part of their 'survival', and instead turn our attention to people hunting for 'fun' and assault rifles "for hunting" in suburbia?

[caveBEAR]

If we had "no guns", only criminals would have guns.

If we had no guns, there'd be no guns.

Jesus.

[Jason Tate]

The following countries all have a relatively equal amount of guns per capita. They also have homicide rates that are nowhere near equal to each other.

France: 1/3 as many guns per capita as U.S. - 1/17 homicide rate
Finland: 1/3 as many guns per capita as U.S. - 1/9 homicide rate
Greece: 1/3 as many guns per capita as U.S. - 1/13 homicide rate
Canada: 1/3 as many guns per capita as U.S. - 1/10 homicide rate
Sweden: 1/3 as many guns per capita as U.S. - 1/38 homicide rate.

If we had "no guns", only criminals would have guns.
The homicide rate is relative to the US (a standard number would be much easier to compare). And with the exception of one outlier (Sweden) they are all, statistically, very near equal to each other.

[Jason Tate]

There's professional hunting. Midget league through college football doesn't pay.
Yes it does. College football, alone, is a billion dollar a year business.

So what's the purpose of it? Why kill something for no other reason than it's "fun"? There has GOT to be a better reason for it than "fun."

[Machu505]

If we had no guns, there'd be no guns.

Jesus. Please, tell me how you aim to end the very existence of guns.

[Machu505]

Yes it does. College football, alone, is a billion dollar a year business. Not for the players. What's the point of my high school football team?

I'm not the person you want to talk to about the core emotional aspects of hunting, since I don't hunt.

[Jason Tate]

X-)

Can we ignore the people who actually hunt as part of their 'survival', and instead turn our attention to people hunting for 'fun' and assault rifles "for hunting" in suburbia?
Why in this day and age is it not considered a sign of mental illness to go kill animals for "fun" if you're doing it with a gun, beer, and camouflage on?

[Scrandon]

I imagine a War on Guns would be an even bigger failure than the War on Drugs. It doesn't address the root of the problem. Other industrialized countries are doing just fine with guns.

[caveBEAR]

Please, tell me how you aim to end the very existence of guns.

You can't, this is obvious, it was a point on gun violence in relation to gun ownership. Someone made a point that 'less guns =/= less gun violence', and I made the point 'no guns = no gun violence'.

I wasn't saying that we could get rid of all guns, just stating the obvious...if there were no guns, there would be no gun violence.

EDIT: As well, my comment of 'if we had no guns, there'd be no guns' was meant in response to his comment of 'the criminals having all the guns' - it didn't hold up in the hypothetical 'no guns' world.

[<*)))><]

I think it is a little crazy that you can have an assault rifle because that would completely destroy the deer.

[Jason Tate]

Not for the players. What's the point of my high school football team?

I'm not the person you want to talk to about the core emotional aspects of hunting, since I don't hunt.
Revenue for the high-school.

[Scrandon]

If we had no guns, there'd be no guns.

Jesus.
Right now, in America, we have "no weed". There is still weed, my friend. Same will easily happen with guns, probably worse.

[Jason Tate]

I imagine a War on Guns would be an even bigger failure than the War on Drugs. It doesn't address the root of the problem. Other industrialized countries are doing just fine with guns.
Which ones?

[Machu505]

I imagine a War on Guns would be an even bigger failure than the War on Drugs. It doesn't address the root of the problem. Other industrialized countries are doing just fine with guns. Take Switzerland (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stm) for example.

[<*)))><]

Revenue for the high-school.
Highschool sports cost the school money and do not create any revenue.

[Machu505]

Revenue for the high-school. Again, there are professional hunters. There are Olympic sports which require guns.

[Jason Tate]

Highschool sports cost the school money and do not create any revenue.
Football revenue crucial to other high school sports (http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayton-sports/high-school-sports/football-revenue-crucial-to-other-high-school-sports-882836.html)

High school football is an integral part of any rural economy ... (http://www2.starexponent.com/news/2010/sep/08/high-school-football-integral-part-any-rural-econo-ar-491315/)

:yawn:

Crowds at high school football games, such as those that begin throughout Ohio tonight, earn as much as half of an athletic department’s revenue for the year, making football attendance a prime concern for high school athletic officials.

[Jason Tate]

Again, there are professional hunters. There are Olympic sports which require guns.
And I'm not talking about professional hunters. They can kill the meat for all of us. Fine by me. Meaning, even less need for any sort of gun.

[Simulcast]

I never said I could, and this is so off-topic it's ridiculous. I made the point (that I feel) hunters should have to kill animals with weapons they crafted on their own, not guns they can buy at Wal-Mart. You then told me hunting is hard (so is foot racing, doesn't give me the right to ride in a car while everyone else runs), and bet I couldn't carve a steak.

Did you completely miss my point, or are you trying to steer the conversation away?


I got your point, but it was pretty ridiculous. My post was an extension of that.

Why do they need to create their own tools to hunt? If you don't like the sport, that's one thing but it's silly to criticize and make demands for something you have no experience doing. Are you going to tell me a fisherman should make his own rod and line to fish? Why?

[Machu505]

And I'm not talking about professional hunters. They can kill the meat for all of us. Fine by me. Meaning, even less need for any sort of gun. Then I don't even understand what you're arguing. Joe Citizen hunting for deer amounts to Joe Citizen playing touch football in his backyard.

[Scrandon]

The homicide rate is relative to the US (a standard number would be much easier to compare).
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7682/screenshot20100928at344.png

And with the exception of one outlier (Sweden) they are all, statistically, very near equal to each other.
No

[Jason Tate]

I got your point, but it was pretty ridiculous. My post was an extension of that.

Why do they need to create their own tools to hunt? If you don't like the sport, that's one thing but it's silly to criticize and make demands for something you have no experience doing. Are you going to tell me a fisherman should make his own rod and line to fish? Why?
Yes. Because otherwise you're cheating. If it's a "sport" and all you do is use something someone else made ... it's like me having Peyton Manning play my pick-up game for me. What's wrong with asking those that want to kill things for "sport" to make the tools to do it themselves?

[Jason Tate]

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7682/screenshot20100928at344.png

No
That graph doesn't say anything about fire-arm per-capita ... what is the point of it? Put percapita fire arms, strength of their fire arm laws, and homicide rates together.

And, yes.

[Simulcast]

Yes. Because otherwise you're cheating. If it's a "sport" and all you do is use something someone else made ... it's like me having Peyton Manning play my pick-up game for me. What's wrong with asking those that want to kill things for "sport" to make the tools to do it themselves?


That's not all you do. That's like saying a football in your hands is going to let you throw 80-yard touchdowns all day long. Hunting is not easy.

[Scrandon]

Which ones?
All of the above mentioned countries, that had less than one homicide per 100,000 people in 1994.
Take Switzerland (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stm) for example.
A point I was trying to make.

[Jason Tate]

Then I don't even understand what you're arguing. Joe Citizen hunting for deer amounts to Joe Citizen playing touch football in his backyard.
What kind of fucked up logic is that?

[Jason Tate]

That's not all you do. That's like saying a football in your hands is going to make you throw 80-yard touchdowns all day long. Hunting is not easy.
No, it's like saying Peyton Manning as my stand in wiill make me throw 80-yard touchdowns all day long.

[Jason Tate]

All of the above mentioned countries, that had less than one homicide per 100,000 people in 1994.

A point I was trying to make.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_ho micide_rate

This is what you want.

Funny that the one with 0.0 has no military.

[Simulcast]

No, it's like saying Peyton Manning as my stand in wiill make me throw 80-yard touchdowns all day long.

A gun is not to hunting what Peyton Manning is to football. That doesn't make any sense at all.

[Jason Tate]

A gun is not to hunting what Peyton Manning is to football. That doesn't make any sense at all.
A gun is to hunting what Payton Manning's arm is to football. The means. Try throwing a bullet at a deer.

[Scrandon]

That graph doesn't say anything about fire-arm per-capita ... what is the point of it? Put percapita fire arms, strength of their fire arm laws, and homicide rates together.
I did that in an earlier post, I guess you didn't read it?
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7682/screenshot20100928at344.png
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8761/screenshot20100928at343.png

And, yes.
Earlier you said something like 2,000 is close enough to 2,200. That's a ten percent difference. I will not be taking your opinion of statistical matters.

[Jason Tate]

I did that in an earlier post, I guess you didn't read it?
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7682/screenshot20100928at344.png
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8761/screenshot20100928at343.png

Earlier you said something like 2,000 is close enough to 2,200. That's a ten percent difference. I will not be taking your opinion of statistical matters.
No you didn't. 2007 is not 1994. What the fuck!? Maybe you should take a statistics course then... and I didn't say "close enough" ... so maybe you should follow that with a reading course.

[Machu505]

A gun is to hunting what Payton Manning's arm is to football. The means. Try throwing a bullet at a deer.
Peyton's arm isn't necessary for football. A weapon is necessary for hunting.

[Jason Tate]

Peyton's arm isn't necessary for football. A weapon is necessary for hunting.
No it's not. But I say fine ... if you can make it yourself. The quality of the arm/weapon is what we're discussing.

[Machu505]

No it's not.
I invite you to hunt without any sort of weapon, just as I invite you to play football without a football.

[Jason Tate]

I invite you to hunt without any sort of weapon, just as I invite you to play football without a football.
I've caught fish bare handed before. Done.

Next?

The point isn't that it's going to be easy to do. And I love how easily you've equated killing something to football. Pretty fucked up.

[Scrandon]

No you didn't. 2007 is not 1994. What the fuck!?
It's not perfect, but the trend is still evident.

Maybe you should take a statistics course then... and I didn't say "close enough" ... so maybe you should follow that with a reading course.

The crime rates in the cities are virtually the same: 2,027 per 100,000 versus 2,268 per 100,000.

??

[myplanforescape]

I have a few friends into guns, but I'm not really into them personally. I understand it as a hobby, like for shooting competitions and hunting to some degree, and I don't really have a problem with them when considered in that light. But I've never really bought into the deterrence aspect of it though, and don't really support concealed or open carry. I'd say I probably even have a problem with people feeling more protected by owning a gun since it creates a false sense of safety. I'm sure it's been mentioned but there is a strong correlation between gun ownership and gun related crime and suicide. I'd definitely be in favor of stricter safety requirements for households that have guns and children, such as gun safes and strong gun locks (many are cheaply made and can be compromised with little skill).

I also really have a problem with the "If we outlaw guns then only outlaws will have guns" argument. Sure the argument is true at face value, but it's misleading. Unless someone is making a gun on their own in say like their basement all guns start out legal, and then enter the black market through things like theft or resell. Therefore if guns were outlawed you'd see a reduction in the ownership of guns by "outlaws."

I typed way more than I thought I would.

[Simulcast]

No it's not. But I say fine ... if you can make it yourself. The quality of the arm/weapon is what we're discussing.


If anything, you should be comparing the ability to operate a gun to the ability to throw a ball. Your comparison makes no sense.

[Jason Tate]

It's not perfect, but the trend is still evident.



??
No it's not.

for the most part; almost wholly; just about:

From a statistical standpoint: they are. A difference of 241 per 100,000.

[caveBEAR]

Right now, in America, we have "no weed". There is still weed, my friend. Same will easily happen with guns, probably worse.

This doesn't make any sense. Who in their right mind would ever say 'we have 'no weed' in America'?

My comment was meant to be taken as a hypothetical in a society with no guns. This means there would be...no guns.

[<*)))><]

Football revenue crucial to other high school sports (http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayton-sports/high-school-sports/football-revenue-crucial-to-other-high-school-sports-882836.html)

High school football is an integral part of any rural economy ... (http://www2.starexponent.com/news/2010/sep/08/high-school-football-integral-part-any-rural-econo-ar-491315/)

:yawn:

Crowds at high school football games, such as those that begin throughout Ohio tonight, earn as much as half of an athletic department’s revenue for the year, making football attendance a prime concern for high school athletic officials.
No highschool football game in my area charges it is all free. In a few of the schools you have to pay to be on the team because the school can't afford it.

[Jason Tate]

If anything, you should be comparing the ability to operate a gun to the ability to throw a ball. Your comparison makes no sense.
We didn't follow it very well, it was a dumb analogy to begin with. I'll simplify it: Want to hunt? OK. You gotta make your weapon.

It's not very difficult to kill someone/something with a gun. Why are you pretending it is?

[Jason Tate]

No highschool football game in my area charges it is all free. In a few of the schools you have to pay to be on the team because the school can't afford it.
You've got a sample size problem.

[caveBEAR]

I got your point, but it was pretty ridiculous. My post was an extension of that.

Why do they need to create their own tools to hunt? If you don't like the sport, that's one thing but it's silly to criticize and make demands for something you have no experience doing. Are you going to tell me a fisherman should make his own rod and line to fish? Why?

I just feel that someone shouldn't be able to go out and purchase something that can kill from long range like they would buy a bag of Cheetos. You can craft a gun/bow and arrow, go nuts.

[Scrandon]

This doesn't make any sense. Who in their right mind would ever say 'we have 'no weed' in America'?

My comment was meant to be taken as a hypothetical in a society with no guns. This means there would be...no guns.

All I'm saying is that a ban on guns would be very similar to a ban on weed. Largely ineffective and not addressing the root of the problem. If you weren't arguing against that, well, fine.

[Simulcast]

You didn't follow it very well. I'll simplify it: Want to hunt? OK. You gotta make your weapon.

It's not very difficult to kill someone/something with a gun. Why are you pretending it is?

I'm not pretending. You have never hunted with a gun before. How can you make that assumption? Do you think you can just walk up to a deer with a handgun and shoot it in the face?

[Scrandon]

No it's not.

for the most part; almost wholly; just about:

From a statistical standpoint: they are. A difference of 241 per 100,000.

It's a ten percent increase.

[Jason Tate]

I'm not pretending. You have never hunted with a gun before. How can you make that assumption? Do you think you can just walk up to a deer with a handgun and shoot it in the face?
Why are you saying what I have and haven't done before. I just said in this thread I had. I'm not making any assumption. Of course I don't think you can walk up to a deer with a handgun and shoot it in the face.

[Simulcast]

Why are you saying what I have and haven't done before. I just said in this thread I had. I'm not making any assumption. Of course I don't think you can walk up to a deer with a handgun and shoot it in the face.

You said you've fired a gun before. Have you ever tracked and shot an animal?

[Jason Tate]

It's a ten percent increase.
Which on this scale is irrelevant. A difference of 241 per 100,000 is the correct way of looking at the difference.

[Jason Tate]

You said you've fired a gun before. Have you ever tracked and shot an animal?
Yes.

[Simulcast]

Yes.

Haha well, you must be pretty good then. This was not difficult for you to do?

[Jason Tate]

Haha well, you must be pretty good then. This was not difficult for you to do?
Point and shoot?

[Simulcast]

Point and shoot?

Was that all you did for the entire hunt? Got out of a car, pointed at an animal and shot? That doesn't sound like hunting to me.

[Jason Tate]

Was that all you did for the entire hunt? Got out of a car, pointed at an animal and shot? That doesn't sound like hunting to me.
No, most of the time was sitting on our asses and being bored out of my mind.

[Simulcast]

No, most of the time was sitting on our asses and being bored out of my mind.

That's how I feel when I have to play baseball.

Well, it sounds like it's not the sport for you then. A lot of people enjoy those aspects though, among the others, and I don't think we should take that away from them.

[Jason Tate]

That's how I feel when I have to play baseball.

Well, it sounds like it's not the sport for you then. A lot of people enjoy those aspects though, among the others, and I don't think we should take that away from them.
That's how I think most people feel when they play baseball.

I have no problem with them enjoying the sitting on their asses part ... it's the killing something for fun part I take issue with.

[caveBEAR]

Hunting is a sport like poker is a sport...

[Simulcast]

That's how I think most people feel when they play baseball.

I have no problem with them enjoying the sitting on their asses part ... it's the killing something for fun part I take issue with.

It's easy to picture a stereotypical hunter killing for "fun" with no respect for the animal. I don't think this is the case for many people though. Lot's of people respect and admire the animals they hunt.

[Simulcast]

Hunting is a sport like poker is a sport...

Spend a few days in the wilderness hunting, you'll find that's not the case.

[theguy77]

hunting is a sport like war is a sport. i feel it's pretty fucked up to view killing something as a fun game, yet a lot of ignorant redneck douchebags with way too much testosterone seem to think it is.

i mean, i play call of duty, so i understand what's supposed to be "fun" about it, but that aspect should completely disappear when real lives are at stake.

[Jason Tate]

It's easy to picture a stereotypical hunter killing for "fun" with no respect for the animal. I don't think this is the case for many people though. Lot's of people respect and admire the animals they hunt.
Sounds like an oxymoron.

I don't understand the need to do that when you can go to the store. Seems more like they just like killing things.

[Simulcast]

Sounds like an oxymoron.

I don't understand the need to do that when you can go to the store. Seems more like they just like killing things.

That is how you view it, and that's fine. That's not how a lot of hunters view it though. It's not just about killing the animal, or just about eating it.

[Jason Tate]

That is how you view it, and that's fine. That's not how a lot of hunters view it though. It's not just about killing the animal, or just about eating it.
So ... what is it about ... that's what everyone wants to know.

[caveBEAR]

It's easy to picture a stereotypical hunter killing for "fun" with no respect for the animal. I don't think this is the case for many people though. Lot's of people respect and admire the animals they hunt.

Exactly. I respect and admire my Grandmother. So I shot her in the heart, stuffed her and displayed her in my living room.

Spend a few days in the wilderness hunting, you'll find that's not the case.

Most 'hunters' I talk to don't spend 'days' in the wilderness, they spend part of a day in a specific hunting area, drinking beer and hanging out. There are of course very serious hunters, professionals, I'm sure, but there are plenty of drunk rednecks to offset them.

[caveBEAR]

hunting is a sport like war is a sport. i feel it's pretty fucked up to view killing something as a fun game, yet a lot of ignorant redneck douchebags with way too much testosterone seem to think it is.

i mean, i play call of duty, so i understand what's supposed to be "fun" about it, but that aspect should completely disappear when real lives are at stake.

Exactly. Paintball all the way. It's like 'Nam for pussies.

[theguy77]

Exactly. Paintball all the way. It's like 'Nam for pussies.

yeah see that's an ignorant redneck douchebag sport i'm all for! lol

i like to play laser tag so i guess that's for pussies squared?

[theguy77]

i mean, a lot of people im sure will think my opinion's dumb though. i dont even like to kill ants if i dont have to.

[Simulcast]

So ... what is it about ... that's what everyone wants to know.

It's about a lot of different things. Being out in nature is an obvious one. Typically you have to remove yourself from civilization to find game, giving you the chance to experience and appreciate nature. Tracking prey is another aspect; you have to outwit the animal you are hunting or else you won't be able to shoot at it, and that's not always easy. Shooting can be challenge depending on the conditions present, like distance, weather, and where you need to shoot to get a clean kill. Shooting with others also lends a sense of camaraderie as you spend time with family or friends, working towards a common goal. Much like a fishing trip, a big part of it is the people you are with. Cleaning your kill and turning it into food also brings a sense of satisfaction.

I realize it's not for you, but many hunters enjoy all of those aspects of the hunt.

[caveBEAR]

yeah see that's an ignorant redneck douchebag sport i'm all for! lol

i like to play laser tag so i guess that's for pussies squared?

Ha ha ha, yeah, but they always play techno music in the laser tag place, so I think that cancels out the second shot of pussiness.

[Simulcast]

Exactly. I respect and admire my Grandmother. So I shot her in the heart, stuffed her and displayed her in my living room.



lol

[Jason Tate]

It's about a lot of different things. Being out in nature is an obvious one. Typically you have to remove yourself from civilization to find game, giving you the chance to experience and appreciate nature. Tracking prey is another aspect; you have to outwit the animal you are hunting or else you won't be able to shoot at it, and that's not always easy. Shooting can be challenge depending on the conditions present, like distance, weather, and where you need to shoot to get a clean kill. Shooting with others also lends a sense of camaraderie as you spend time with family or friends, working towards a common goal. Much like a fishing trip, a big part of it is the people you are with. Cleaning your kill and turning it into food also brings a sense of satisfaction.

I realize it's not for you, but many hunters enjoy all of those aspects of the hunt.
I see none of this these feelings as needing to kill something in order to obtain.

[theguy77]

i just thought of something. i like to fish; when you're fishing you're basically hunting marine animals, and it's usually for fun. that could be perceived as hypocritical... kind of in the same sense that vegetarians push PETA and say DONT KILL ANIMALS but then they eat fish, because apparently they get to decide which living things have feelings and are worth protecting and which dont.

[caveBEAR]

Jeremy Grey: Mr. Environnmental is also a hunter. That's kind of an interesting combination.
Zack Lodge: I hunt quail, Jeremy. They're overpopulated in this region and they're decimating the grubworm population. You got a fucking problem with that?
Jeremy Grey: Not nearly as much as I do with the, uh, attire you have on or just your general point of view toward everybody, but let's go kill some birds. I'm psyched.

[Simulcast]

I see none of this these feelings as needing to kill something in order to obtain.

Still stuck on that part of it, eh? I know you don't appreciate it, but a lot of people do. They don't need to do it, bu they do enjoy it. If it brings them all of that and provides food for them, what's the problem?

[Jason Tate]

i just thought of something. i like to fish; when you're fishing you're basically hunting marine animals. that could be perceived as hypocritical... kind of in the same sense that vegetarians push PETA and say DONT KILL ANIMALS but then they eat fish, because apparently they get to decide which living things have feelings and are worth protecting and which dont.
Would be much cooler if you were hunting them with guns.

[caveBEAR]

i just thought of something. i like to fish; when you're fishing you're basically hunting marine animals, and it's usually for fun. that could be perceived as hypocritical... kind of in the same sense that vegetarians push PETA and say DONT KILL ANIMALS but then they eat fish, because apparently they get to decide which living things have feelings and are worth protecting and which dont.

Throwing them back is attempted murder.

[Jason Tate]

Still stuck on that part of it, eh? I know you don't appreciate it, but a lot of people do. They don't need to do it, bu they do enjoy it. If it brings them all of that and provides food for them, what's the problem?
There needs to be a better reason than "I enjoy it" to justify it. Waste of resources is one problem.

[Simulcast]

i just thought of something. i like to fish; when you're fishing you're basically hunting marine animals, and it's usually for fun. that could be perceived as hypocritical... kind of in the same sense that vegetarians push PETA and say DONT KILL ANIMALS but then they eat fish, because apparently they get to decide which living things have feelings and are worth protecting and which dont.

Fish breathe underwater. That's not natural. I say kill 'em all.

[caveBEAR]

There needs to be a better reason than "I enjoy it" to justify it. Waste of resources is one problem.

Jason, stop! 'I enjoy it' is my justification for raping male clowns! If 'I enjoy it' doesn't nullify something that's wrong, I'd be fucked!

[Simulcast]

There needs to be a better reason than "I enjoy it" to justify it.

...providing food? Animal population control? Not sure what you want here. I enjoy camping, do I need to justify burning wood to do it? It keeps me warm. I kill an animal, it keeps my belly full.

[Jason Tate]

Jason, stop! 'I enjoy it' is my justification for raping male clowns! If 'I enjoy it' doesn't nullify something that's wrong, I'd be fucked!
Some day maybe we'll evolve away from enjoying this ...

[Jason Tate]

...providing food? Animal population control? Not sure what you want here. I enjoy camping, do I need to justify burning wood to do it? It keeps me warm. I kill an animal, it keeps my belly full.
You can justify burning wood while camping -- which is no way near the same thing as killing an animal.

[Simulcast]

There needs to be a better reason than "I enjoy it" to justify it. Waste of resources is one problem.

Outlaw basketball then. Wastes tons of resources and exploits people in poor countries.

[Jason Tate]

Outlaw basketball then. Wastes tons of resources and exploits people in poor countries.
I'm not talking about guns in other countries. Just ours. And it doesn't waste resources. Someone playing basketball is not the same as someone killing something while the same food sits on the shelf ... playing basketball doesn't involve killing anything. What an awful false analogy. The burden of justification on an activity goes up when it involves killing something.

[Simulcast]

I'm not talking about guns in other countries. Just ours. And it doesn't waste resources. Someone playing basketball is not the same as someone killing something while the same food sits on the shelf ... playing basketball doesn't involve killing anything.

No, but it does involve giant stadiums and pretty rubber shoes. What could we do with all of that?

What does it matter where someone get's their food? Should I not grow vegetables in my garden because Albertson's has produce on it's shelf?

[Jason Tate]

No, but it does involve giant stadiums and pretty rubber shoes. What could we do with all of that?

What does it matter where someone get's their food? Should I not grow vegetables in my garden because Albertson's has produce on it's shelf?
There's an obvious economical benefit ... thousands of jobs.

The burden of justification on an activity goes up when it involves killing something. Apples and Animals.

[Simulcast]

There's an obvious economical benefit ... thousands of jobs.

The burden of justification on an activity goes up when it involves killing something. Apples and Animals.

Haha, nice.

Well this isn't going anywhere. Two different schools of thought. Thanks for the debate though, enjoyable as always.

[zion the lion]

I am going to have a gun to protect myself, I'll carry it on me, probably concealed, and I'll do that to keep myself safe. If someone is aggressive enough to try to rape me, I doubt pepper spray and calls for help are going to actually make him pause and realize that rape is wrong. In all honesty, pepper spray might just make him more angry in the long run. I'd want to immobilize him, and make sure he'll never rape again, by shooting him in the dick.

People arent doing much to prevent rape, the statistics for it are embarrasingly high, and at this point (for me at least) its more rare to meet someone who hasnt been sexually assaulted than to meet someone who has. It's up to me to protect myself.

[caveBEAR]

Oooh, zion.

[peder458]

I just read 6 or 7 pages of debate on fun ownership/control... and it ended like this. Somewhat comforting.

[zion the lion]

Oooh, zion.

Ohhh, whatever your name is.

[caveBEAR]

Ohhh, whatever your name is.

Your real name is zion?

[zion the lion]

Your real name is zion?

What did you think it was?

[loveisdead]

Ohhh, whatever your name is.

I told you his name in another thread.

[Scrandon]

I told you his name in another thread.

And it's on his freakin' profile. The rat is a troll.

[zion the lion]

And it's on his freakin' profile. The rat is a troll.

I dont stalk people's profiles. Sorry.

[caveBEAR]

What did you think it was?

I don't know...not 'Zion'?

[zion the lion]

I don't know...not 'Zion'?

I cant explain it well, but my aunt is super religious, so I have two sets of names, a god given name Zion Joy (and the last name), and my more legal name Ashley Rene (other last name). I let people pick which one they want to call me.

[mcm1610]

A "god given" name?

What?

[zion the lion]

A "god given" name?

What?

As in, my aunt said god gave told her the name which was intended for me.

And if anyone else needs my biography, or name...you can stalk my profile.

[Machu505]

This was fun.

[sjb2k1]

late to the party? no problem with the military and assault rifles - civilians, no way, obviously. i'm also fine with using guns for hunting, although coming from a family of archers i think bow hunting is preferable. handguns...i just think about VT. also, the closest i've come to shooting a gun is shooting a bb gun. i also probably won't ever own a gun, because i'm clumsy enough that i'd end up shooting myself by accident.

[caveBEAR]

Here's a Venn Diagram I whipped up to demonstrate the 'issue' I have with huntings general acceptance and legality;

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy340/beer4bear/Hunting.png

[loveisdead]

late to the party? no problem with the military and assault rifles - civilians, no way, obviously. i'm also fine with using guns for hunting, although coming from a family of archers i think bow hunting is preferable. handguns...i just think about VT. also, the closest i've come to shooting a gun is shooting a bb gun. i also probably won't ever own a gun, because i'm clumsy enough that i'd end up shooting myself by accident.

Haha I agree with all of this.

[zion the lion]

Here's a Venn Diagram I whipped up to demonstrate the 'issue' I have with huntings general acceptance and legality;

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy340/beer4bear/Hunting.png

You made that yourself?

[sjb2k1]

Here's a Venn Diagram I whipped up to demonstrate the 'issue' I have with huntings general acceptance and legality;

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy340/beer4bear/Hunting.png
is your issue with hunting with guns or hunting in general?

[caveBEAR]

You made that yourself?

Yup.

[Neo Cassady]

Here's a Venn Diagram I whipped up to demonstrate the 'issue' I have with huntings general acceptance and legality;

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy340/beer4bear/Hunting.png

It's only abuse if you don't use every part of the animal.

[caveBEAR]

is your issue with hunting with guns or hunting in general?

Hunting with guns. You want to take down a deer with a knife or a bear with a bow and arrow? Knock yourself out.

I don't feel, however that anyone should have the capacity to kill an animal from far away with a projectile that they bought at Wal-Mart. (To all those who want to quote me and tell me about how hard hunting is and I'll ignore you, I read all about it already...)

[caveBEAR]

It's only abuse if you don't use every part of the animal.

Is this a humorous quip or serious?

[sjb2k1]

Hunting with guns. You want to take down a deer with a knife or a bear with a bow and arrow? Knock yourself out.

I don't feel, however that anyone should have the capacity to kill an animal from far away with a projectile that they bought at Wal-Mart. (To all those who want to quote me and tell me about how hard hunting is and I'll ignore you, I read all about it already...)
gotcha.

[<*)))><]

Someone sounds grumpy

[Neo Cassady]

Is this a humorous quip or serious?

Maybe it's a bit exaggerated; however, it's serious in that I loathe people who hunt for sport, but have a ton of respect for people who use responsible hunting (along with gardening, et al.) to maintain a more independent lifestyle. Not to mention, wild game that has lived naturally is a whole lot healthier than the crap you can buy at the nearest Wal-Mart butcher.

That said, I don't own a gun, nor do I foresee myself owning one in the future. If I do, it will be a hunting rifle that will be rarely, if ever, used, and only then for the reasons stated above (though I'm not knowledgeable enough at this point to prepare and preserve meat). Handguns serve no useful purpose whatsoever.

edit: The above does not have to be accomplished with a gun, anyway. As you said, a bow and arrow work just fine.

[caveBEAR]

Maybe it's a bit exaggerated; however, it's serious in that I loathe people who hunt for sport, but have a ton of respect for people who use responsible hunting (along with gardening, et al.) to maintain a more independent lifestyle. Not to mention, wild game that has lived naturally is a whole lot healthier than the crap you can buy at the nearest Wal-Mart butcher.

That said, I don't own a gun, nor do I foresee myself owning one in the future. If I do, it will be a hunting rifle that will be rarely, if ever, used, and only then for the reasons stated above (though I'm not knowledgeable enough at this point to prepare and preserve meat). Handguns serve no useful purpose whatsoever.

edit: The above does not have to be accomplished with a gun, anyway. As you said, a bow and arrow work just fine.

Got it. I could get on board with all of that.

It's the redneck with the automatic killing something so he can stuff it in his living room that makes me furious.

[caveBEAR]

Someone sounds grumpy

Someone sounds inconsequential to the discussion at hand.

[theguy77]

i approve of neo cassidy's views -- killing animals for food necessity is a fact of life. doing it for sport is what disgusts me.

[zion the lion]

Yup.

So...you have a problem hunting, eating the meat, and maybe hanging the head or the antlers on the wall?

[caveBEAR]

So...you have a problem hunting, eating the meat, and maybe hanging the head or the antlers on the wall?

I don't have a problem with hunting should hunting be someone's primary source of food; however, I have a problem with people who hunt for 'game', 'sport' or 'fun', so those antlers on the wall would definitely irk me.

[Zeran]

No other industrialized nations have anywhere near the homicide rate as the U.S., even controlling for the massive number of guns we have. Gun ownership is certainly not the problem here. We seriously need to address the true cause, whatever it may be.

poverty? i honestly think this is one of the, if not the main cause behind the high amount of gun violence/crime.

[Scrandon]

poverty? i honestly think this is one of the, if not the main cause behind the high amount of gun violence/crime.

I'm sure a lot of gun-related crime is carried out for money.

[Zeran]

i think if poverty goes down, so too (probably) does violence/crime.

although i do think the country has too many guns, generally speaking.

[Skadrist]

i think if poverty goes down, so too (probably) does violence/crime.

although i do think the country has too many guns, generally speaking.

I am a liberal gun owner I enjoy shooting although it isn't something I do to often since it can be expensive. This past weekend I met up with a handful of guys who are trying to get a Liberal Gun Club off the ground here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. I won't lie that there are some knuckle-draggers in the gun owning demographic.

If you really want to decrease gun violence in this country start by ending the war on drugs.

[Jason Tate]

i think if poverty goes down, so too (probably) does violence/crime.

although i do think the country has too many guns, generally speaking.
This is very true. It's not a probably. Great economic study on 4 factors that reduce crime (http://neuro.bcm.edu/eagleman/neurolaw/papers/%5BLevitt%5D2004.pdf), and 6 that don't.

[Jason Tate]

"The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435,000 deaths; 18.1% of total US deaths), poor diet and physical inactivity (400,000 deaths; 16.6%), and alcohol consumption (85,000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial agents (75,000), toxic agents (55,000), motor vehicle crashes (43,000), incidents involving firearms (29,000), sexual behaviors (20,000), and illicit use of drugs (17,000)."

[Jason Tate]

Got it. I could get on board with all of that.

It's the redneck with the automatic killing something so he can stuff it in his living room that makes me furious.
This.

[Jason Tate]

Oooh, zion.
:lol:

Best response.

[caveBEAR]

Best response.

:bow:

"The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435,000 deaths; 18.1% of total US deaths), poor diet and physical inactivity (400,000 deaths; 16.6%), and alcohol consumption (85,000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial agents (75,000), toxic agents (55,000), motor vehicle crashes (43,000), incidents involving firearms (29,000), sexual behaviors (20,000), and illicit use of drugs (17,000)."

So, statistically, I have about the same odds of dying in an armed home invasion as I do ending life in my closet, belt around my neck, dick in hand?

Good to know.

[Skadrist]

:bow:


So, statistically, I have about the same odds of dying in an armed home invasion as I do ending life in my closet, belt around my neck, dick in hand?

Good to know.

The term "gun incidents" includes accidents, suicides and homicides so only about half of those deaths will be homicides.

[caveBEAR]

The term "gun incidents" includes accidents, suicides and homicides so only about half of those deaths will be homicides.

So, statistically I have a better chance of dying with a belt around my neck and dick in hand?

[theguy77]

"The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435,000 deaths; 18.1% of total US deaths), poor diet and physical inactivity (400,000 deaths; 16.6%), and alcohol consumption (85,000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial agents (75,000), toxic agents (55,000), motor vehicle crashes (43,000), incidents involving firearms (29,000), sexual behaviors (20,000), and illicit use of drugs (17,000)."

ahahahahhaha whattt? you'd think those would be rare freak accidents, not a leading cause of death.

[Skadrist]

So, statistically I have a better chance of dying with a belt around my neck and dick in hand?

Yup.

[zion the lion]

:lol:

Best response.

Yeah its a totally understandable response to someone who wants to be protected against sexual assault and home invasions. Its a great response to someone who right now can only sleep with a taser because she lives with someone who has sexually assaulted a minor. You're right I have no right to be afraid of what could happen to me. Its laughable.

[Jason Tate]

Yeah its a totally understandable response to someone who wants to be protected against sexual assault and home invasions. Its a great response to someone who right now can only sleep with a taser because she lives with someone who has sexually assaulted a minor. You're right I have no right to be afraid of what could happen to me. Its laughable.
Move.

[zion the lion]

Move.

If you want to maybe send me $1500 for a security deposit and $3000 for first and last months rent in a new place, I'd be very happy to. And maybe $30 for a uhaul...

[Jason Tate]

If you want to maybe send me $1500 for a security deposit and $3000 for first and last months rent in a new place, I'd be very happy to. And maybe $30 for a uhaul...
Move to a cheaper place.

[mcm1610]

There's no way Anchorage AK costs $1500 in rent each month.

[zion the lion]

Move to a cheaper place.

Then, send at least $750 for security deposit at a studio apartment, and $1500 for first and last months rent and 30 for a uhaul truck. Do you see what I'm getting at? I dont have the money to move, I have nobody to move in with, but I do have access to guns and I'd love to protect myself while I do stay here.

[Jason Tate]

Then, send at least $750 for security deposit at a studio apartment, and $1500 for first and last months rent and 30 for a uhaul truck. Do you see what I'm getting at? I dont have the money to move, I have nobody to move in with, but I do have access to guns and I'd love to protect myself while I do stay here.
Then get a job.

[zion the lion]

There's no way Anchorage AK costs $1500 in rent each month.

Its really expensive. I've looked around at places and yes, it is.

[zion the lion]

Then get a job.

I cant until my therapist says my schizophrenia is under control enough and we switch me to a better medication.

[Jason Tate]

There's no way Anchorage AK costs $1500 in rent each month.
For fun, I looked it up. You can get one for $665 with a $500 deposit.

[Jason Tate]

I cant until my therapist says my schizophrenia is under control enough and we switch me to a better medication.
I'm only going to pause on the, obviously, fucked up notion that your schizophrenia is apparently not under control enough and yet you " do have access to guns" ...

I'm taking a moment to pretend this doesn't mean what I just read.

[Jason Tate]

Its really expensive. I've looked around at places and yes, it is.
I call bullshit (http://www.apartments.com/summary.aspx?property=221760.1&srank=1&area2=y&state=ak&rgn1=190&helicon=1&subarea1=y&rent_minimum=0&rent_maximum=99999&mode=6144&page=summary&prvpg=7&srt1=0.45&srt2=0.54&srt3=0.17).

And that's barely looking.

[zion the lion]

I'm only going to pause on the, obviously, fucked up notion that your schizophrenia is apparently not under control enough and yet you " do have access to guns" ...

I'm taking a moment to pretend this doesn't mean what I just read.

I'm not violent, I dont hallucinate, my meds on the other hand make me forget things, I get sick a lot, the side affects are bad. Thats what I meant.

I call bullshit (http://www.apartments.com/summary.aspx?property=221760.1&srank=1&area2=y&state=ak&rgn1=190&helicon=1&subarea1=y&rent_minimum=0&rent_maximum=99999&mode=6144&page=summary&prvpg=7&srt1=0.45&srt2=0.54&srt3=0.17).

And that's barely looking.

Icky side of town. it probably doesnt even have a dishwasher.

[Jason Tate]

I'm not violent, I dont hallucinate, my meds on the other hand make me forget things, I get sick a lot, the side affects are bad. Thats what I meant.



Icky side of town. it probably doesnt even have a dishwasher.
I rest my case.

[zion the lion]

I rest my case.

Are you resting your case for better gun control laws? Thats fine with me, I never said it was a good or bad thing that someone that has mental health problems should be able to have a gun. But since I can have a gun and carry it on me, I might as well keep one for emergency situations. If you want to talk to me about gun violence and the prevention of it, I'd love to make it so that carrying a gun on you is illegal, I've known people who were murdered (shot in the head) for basically no reason, and if I could prevent that somehow in any way, I would. But banning guns is never going to happen in this country. Never.

If you're talking about the house thing, yeah the house I wanted for 1500 was a 3 bedroom for me, my friend who is currently homeless, and the other girl who lives here who is in a bad spot right now. I want to take care of those two girls because they're important to me. I've looked at a lot of places for 450 that basically have communal kitchens. I have higher standards, I'd want a dishwasher so that I can get the germs off my stuff, I'd want a bathroom in my own apartment so that I can take showers in privacy. I'd want a place without roaches, that doesnt smell like piss in the hallways. Sorry.

and yes I know that I've sounded like a complete idiot.

[mcm1610]

They make soap and water that comes out in non-dishwasher forms and works just the same. Clearly your fear of whoever sexually assaulted you or whatever is not big enough to overcome your sense of entitlement.

[zion the lion]

They make soap and water that comes out in non-dishwasher forms and works just the same. Clearly your fear of whoever sexually assaulted you or whatever is not big enough to overcome your sense of entitlement.

He didnt molest me, I moved away from the guy who did that, this guy molested his step daughter...

And I wash dishes by hand, then put them in the dishwasher to make sure they're clean.

[mcm1610]

Ok, then guns are your savior I guess. There's certainly no other rational way to deal with your solution, because you've got an explanation for everything else.

[caveBEAR]

Yeah its a totally understandable response to someone who wants to be protected against sexual assault and home invasions. Its a great response to someone who right now can only sleep with a taser because she lives with someone who has sexually assaulted a minor. You're right I have no right to be afraid of what could happen to me. Its laughable.

'Oooh zion' was more in reference to you adding in the 'shoot his dick off' detail...

Just throwin' that out there.

[caveBEAR]

He didnt molest me, I moved away from the guy who did that, this guy molested his step daughter...

And I wash dishes by hand, then put them in the dishwasher to make sure they're clean.

This is obscenely redundant and a complete waste.

[Jason Tate]

This is obscenely redundant and a complete waste.
I wash my dishes by hand, after which I soak them in a bucket of bleach, before sterilizing them with boiling water, and then putting them in the dishwasher. I then take them out, jizz neomycin on them, and put them in individual protective plastic bags.

[caveBEAR]

I wash my dishes by hand, after which I soak them in a bucket of bleach, before sterilizing them with boiling water, and then putting them in the dishwasher. I then take them out, jizz neomycin on them, and put them in individual protective plastic bags.

:lol:

It's the only way you can really know they're clean.

[anamericangod]

He didnt molest me, I moved away from the guy who did that, this guy molested his step daughter...

And I wash dishes by hand, then put them in the dishwasher to make sure they're clean.

He molested his step daughter. You aren't his step daughter.

Your molestation logic fails.

[movingxpictures]

:popcorn:

[zion the lion]

This is obscenely redundant and a complete waste.

I'm disgusted by germs, I wash my hands in rubbing alcohol, I use bleach on my dishes, it makes me feel better and it makes me think the dishes are actually clean.

I wash my dishes by hand, after which I soak them in a bucket of bleach, before sterilizing them with boiling water, and then putting them in the dishwasher. I then take them out, jizz neomycin on them, and put them in individual protective plastic bags.

I actually do use bleach.

He molested his step daughter. You aren't his step daughter.

Your molestation logic fails.

I have no clue what you're even trying to say. be more blunt.

[caveBEAR]

I'm disgusted by germs, I wash my hands in rubbing alcohol, I use bleach on my dishes, it makes me feel better and it makes me think the dishes are actually clean.

If you rinsed your plates in bleach, then rinsed them with water, they'd be 100% germ free. Bleach kills germs. Quit wasting water.

[zion the lion]

If you rinsed your plates in bleach, then rinsed them with water, they'd be 100% germ free. Bleach kills germs. Quit wasting water.

And how would you know that the bleach is completely gone from the plate? Next you're going to tell me to stop wearing nitrile gloves because its not biodegradable.

[caveBEAR]

And how would you know that the bleach is completely gone from the plate? Next you're going to tell me to stop wearing nitrile gloves because its not biodegradable.

How would you know the bleach is gone from the plate? By rinsing it with water and drying it.

Jesus Christ, go work in a restaurant for a week.

[Jason Tate]

I feel like Zion's posts could be their own "failblog" website.

[zion the lion]

How would you know the bleach is gone from the plate? By rinsing it with water and drying it.

Jesus Christ, go work in a restaurant for a week.

I dont think you get what I mean, I dont want the smell of bleach on my plate or cup or bowl or whatever.

Why would I want to do that? my combo of meds make me pass out sometimes.

[caveBEAR]

I dont think you get what I mean, I dont want the smell of bleach on my plate or cup or bowl or whatever.

Then clean it with soap, add bleach to your water, use soap with bleach added...Jesus, it's not hard to get your dishes germ-free without hand-washing AND dish-washing them.

Why would I want to do that? my combo of meds make me pass out sometimes.

The restaurant comment was in regards to the proper ways to clean with bleach, and wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I find it hard to imagine you'd last more than an hour in the back of a kitchen.

[zion the lion]

Then clean it with soap, add bleach to your water, use soap with bleach added...Jesus, it's not hard to get your dishes germ-free without hand-washing AND dish-washing them.



The restaurant comment was in regards to the proper ways to clean with bleach, and wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I find it hard to imagine you'd last more than an hour in the back of a kitchen.

Why exactly does it matter to you that I use the dishwasher and hand wash my dishes?

[deFobbed14yrs]

^ :biggun:

So a gun would be super useful right now, see guns are good!

[caveBEAR]

Why exactly does it matter to you that I use the dishwasher and hand wash my dishes?

Because it's an unnecessary waste. I don't really give a fuck one way or the other, just thought you should know. I brought up bleach because it kills germs 100%, but you don't like the smell.

Do you pay your household's water bill?

[zion the lion]

Because it's an unnecessary waste. I don't really give a fuck one way or the other, just thought you should know. I brought up bleach because it kills germs 100%, but you don't like the smell.

Do you pay your household's water bill?

I brought up bleach. Its not like you live with me, you dont know me, you never ever will, my water usage is never going to be a problem for you. I could bump into you my next time in florida, and you wont know its me. I dont know why we even have to discuss it in such depth or why you have to be so rude about it.

I used to contribute to rent but right now I dont, and I dont do dishes as much either.

[caveBEAR]

I brought up bleach. Its not like you live with me, you dont know me, you never ever will, my water usage is never going to be a problem for you. I could bump into you my next time in florida, and you wont know its me. I dont know why we even have to discuss it in such depth or why you have to be so rude about it.

I used to contribute to rent but right now I dont, and I dont do dishes as much either.

I don't really care. Surprisingly, scientists recently discovered that typing takes very little effort.

[mcm1610]

The point is, she's too stuck up to live without a dishwasher, so she'll fear for her life living with a child-molester which she will defend herself against with the use of a gun.

Because there is no other way out of this situation than guns.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Why bother washing dishes with a sponge and soap when you can shoot your plates with guns to get them clean

[caveBEAR]

Why bother washing dishes with a sponge and soap when you can shoot your plates with guns to get them clean

:lol:

(EDIT: zion, I posted just a smiley because I thought Jake's post was funny and wished to convey this)

[zion the lion]

I don't really care. Surprisingly, scientists recently discovered that typing takes very little effort.

Is that true?

[theguy77]

Why bother washing dishes with a sponge and soap when you can shoot your plates with guns to get them clean

hahahahaha

[Jason Tate]

The point is, she's too stuck up to live without a dishwasher, so she'll fear for her life living with a child-molester which she will defend herself against with the use of a gun.

Because there is no other way out of this situation than guns.
That's what I learned.

[j-dogg_69]

To Zion,

1) Bleach is actually poisonous so I'd recommend not washing your dishes with it. I believe what you need is a disinfectant (not a concentrated one however) or an anti-bacterial.

2) There are other ways of protecting yourself against rape. Don't walk alone in quiet areas/dark areas, avoid bad areas of town. Use taxis (licensed taxis may I add) instead of walking. I could go on but I'm sure you get my point by now.

I don't understand guns. But that's possibly because I witnessed a drive by murder, or because I think rationally...

Relating to Jason's post on the previous page about causes of deaths; I'm assuming 'sexual encounters' includes AIDS and HIV, other STD's, etc? otherwise I'm well out the loop on sex games!haha

[Simulcast]

Any positive discussion garnered on the topic has been destroyed by the last few pages. Makes me sad.

[Scrandon]

Any positive discussion garnered on the topic has been destroyed by the last few pages. Makes me sad.

Never fails with that rat around.

[fightinirish217]

I can't believe that nutcase has 10,000+ posts.

[mcm1610]

Did you know she was named by God? Literally.

[loveisdead]

Did you know she was named by God? Literally.

It's true ya know.

[Greek]

zion, i've seen pictures. i don't think you have anything to worry about in regards to the molestation.

[Scrandon]

Needs a :zing:

[loveisdead]

Why bother washing dishes with a sponge and soap when you can shoot your plates with guns to get them clean

I want to like this.

[Zeran]

well, this thread sucks now.

[Jason Tate]

well, this thread sucks now.
:lol:

[movingxpictures]

Did you know she was named by God? Literally.

Thumbs up post.

Since all meaninglful discussion has been cast aside by the entrance of Zion, this thread needs more Tate vs. Zion and BEERfortheBEAR vs. Zion.

[caveBEAR]

Where does everyone stand on the legality of assault rifles? Do you feel they are protected by the 2nd Amendment, or do you feel the 2nd Amendment couldn't have known about the future of guns, and therefore should be altered/amended now?

[Jason Tate]

We should re-think things as we get more information/better technology.

[kofiadrian]

In a ideal world, there wouldn't be guns. or weapons of any kind.

[caveBEAR]

In a ideal world, there wouldn't be guns. or weapons of any kind.

Aaaah, Jesus, don't bring this up. It derails the thread when someone asks how you'd eliminate guns.

[caveBEAR]

We should re-think things as we get more information/better technology.

I agree. I don't feel assault rifles belong anywhere beyond the military, and...well, that's a whole seperate can of worms there.

[Simulcast]

I agree. I don't feel assault rifles belong anywhere beyond the military, and...well, that's a whole seperate can of worms there.

Eh, this is my argument against that:

North Hollywood bank shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout)

How do you combat this, if not by arming the police adequately?

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Where does everyone stand on the legality of assault rifles? Do you feel they are protected by the 2nd Amendment, or do you feel the 2nd Amendment couldn't have known about the future of guns, and therefore should be altered/amended now?

I'm against access for private citizens being able to own them. GWB shouldn't have let the assault weapons band expire

[caveBEAR]

Eh, this is my argument against that:

North Hollywood bank shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout)

How do you combat this, if not by arming the police adequately?

I'd be alright with police special forces (SWAT & the like) having them as well. I don't feel rank-n-file officers should have them, although I'm not sure if the currently are allowed to or not.

[Simulcast]

I'd be alright with police special forces (SWAT & the like) having them as well.

The problem though was that the regular police officers were unable to stop them with their sidearms until the SWAT team showed up. That took 15-20 minutes.

They are as far as I know. At least in California.

[Skadrist]

Where does everyone stand on the legality of assault rifles? Do you feel they are protected by the 2nd Amendment, or do you feel the 2nd Amendment couldn't have known about the future of guns, and therefore should be altered/amended now?


The same could be said about Free Speech and how it applies to the radio, television and the internet.

Assault Rifles are fully automatic and because of that are strictly controlled. I assume you mean assualt weapons?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_msb7eQA-RFY/Sh568VBkGdI/AAAAAAAABAk/nRzwv_mWlto/s400/malcolm-x-by-any-means-necessary-276x400.jpg

Opinions on the gun that Malcolm X is holding and would you consider it an assault weapon?

I have posted this before

Regulating assault weapons is nothing but ineffective feel good legislation. The first assault weapon ban was a complete failure and did not do much. Why? Because the most used weapons in crimes will always be pistols for every high profile shooting in some upscale white area dozens of people in the inner city die. Gun control isn't going to stop people from getting killed where I live here in the Pleasant Grove or other rough and tumble parts of Dallas or the country not until the war on drugs is ended along with efforts to combat poverty and a culture of violence that is prevalent in the inner city.

Yeah, I own a gun because I live in a rough area. Even if I didn't live in a rough area I would still have own them; I have always had an interest in them perhaps because my ancestors were riding and outshootting Huerta's cavalry a century a go during the Mexican revolution. I personally think target shooting is a fun hobby but hobbies themselves are subject to opinion. I don't ever see myself hunting and I am not a fan of trophy hunting. However, I do respect people who do it out of environmental reasons and I know a few hunters that do it because of that.

I know I don't fall in the typical gun owner demographic of what you expect being Mexican, working a unionized job, going to college and leaning way to the left. I also don't see myself supporting the idea of gun control since it has it's roots in suppressing minorities, unions and immigrants. I am certainly not one of those guns for everyone crazy NRA types.

I gotta go to work now but I will be back to see your guys is opinions later at night.

[caveBEAR]

The problem though was that the regular police officers were unable to stop them with their sidearms until the SWAT team showed up. That took 15-20 minutes.

They are as far as I know. At least in California.

I guess, I could just see officers having assualt rifles ending badly. All we need to do is look at what happens with officers and tasers; however, it could be argued that we have these problems with the tasers because they're non-lethal and officers are much more likely to use them.

Guns (themselves) are something I don't really care about, so I'm not anywhere near as versed in them (and legislation on them) as I should be.

[Simulcast]

I guess, I could just see officers having assualt rifles ending badly. All we need to do is look at what happens with officers and tasers; however, it could be argued that we have these problems with the tasers because they're non-lethal and officers are much more likely to use them.

Guns (themselves) are something I don't really care about, so I'm not anywhere near as versed in them (and legislation on them) as I should be.


They have them in California now, in part because of that incident. I think they are trained differently in the appropriate usage of tazers and assault rifles, and they also don't carry them on their person.

[caveBEAR]

The same could be said about Free Speech and how it applies to the radio, television and the internet.

How so? Free speech is kind of free speech no matter where the speech comes from.

Regulating assault weapons is nothing but ineffective feel good legislation. The first assault weapon ban was a complete failure and did not do much. Why? Because the most used weapons in crimes will always be pistols for every high profile shooting in some upscale white area dozens of people in the inner city die. Gun control isn't going to stop people from getting killed where I live here in the Pleasant Grove or other rough and tumble parts of Dallas or the country not until the war on drugs is ended along with efforts to combat poverty and a culture of violence that is prevalent in the inner city.

How is it just 'feel good' legislation?

--------

I don't understand what this has to do with assault rifles;
Because the most used weapons in crimes will always be pistols for every high profile shooting in some upscale white area dozens of people in the inner city die.

I know that pistols are used much more frequently than assault weapons, but why does that mean we shouldn't crack down on assualt weapons?

[caveBEAR]

They have them in California now, in part because of that incident.

Hmmm. I guess, in my opinion, I'd rather have the 10-15 minute wait for the SWAT team than the possibility of some 'Rodney King' incident involving assault rifles; however, I'd assume that the regulation on those within the police would be much higher than regular firearms or tasers.

[Machu505]

Assault weapons fall within the regulatory authority of Congress, and I believe that they ought to be banned from public purchase. At the very least they should be subject to licensing requirements.

[loveisdead]

I really couldn't tell you my position on guns. I change my mind all the time.

[sjb2k1]

automatic weapons have no place in the hands of civilians.

[Alou]

Would prefer assault weapons be used only be people of the police force trained to use them. If that means just SWAT or the entire force I don't care as long as they're all trained and intelligent about the weapons they're using.

[Skadrist]

How so? Free speech is kind of free speech no matter where the speech comes from.



How is it just 'feel good' legislation?

--------

I don't understand what this has to do with assault rifles;


I know that pistols are used much more frequently than assault weapons, but why does that mean we shouldn't crack down on assualt weapons?

I brought up Free speech because it is a common argument against gun ownership that goes along these lines "If the founding father's foresaw what guns would be like in the future they would be against them." The argument could also be made that the founding fathers didn't envision the technology and the regulation we have now and that they would be against it.

I also need to say that since the Republicans have their party line based on a figurative three legged stool of "Gods, Guns and Gays" I would love to see the Democratic Party tone down the staunch anti-gun wing of the party because it could knock out a leg on the Republican stool and relegate the Republicans to the dustbin of history.

Also assault weapons are now more popular than ever and a ban on them would have way to much political fallout.

Here are murder stats for 2009 in the US
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_20.html
Murders Total- 13636
Murders with handguns – 6452 (47.32%)
Murders with rifles – 348 (2.55%)
Murders with shotguns – 418 (3.07%)
Murders with unknown firearms – 1928 (14.14%)
Murder with knives or cutting instruments – 1825 (13.38%)
Murders with other weapons – 1864 (13.67%)
Murders with hands, fists, feet etc.. – 801 (5.87%)Though unknown guns make up a significant portion smart money would indicate that if those unknown guns where to be broken down they would play out in a similar pattern.


An article on the effect of the ban.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/aug/16/20040816-114754-1427r/?page=1

It should also be noted that crime has gone down in the nearly 7 years since the assault weapons ban expired.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/01/AR2010010101829.html













Would prefer assault weapons be used only be people of the police force trained to use them. If that means just SWAT or the entire force I don't care as long as they're all trained and intelligent about the weapons they're using.

I personally think that the increasing militarization of this country's police forces is a scary thing now matter how you cut it.

automatic weapons have no place in the hands of civilians.

Automatic and by that I assume you mean fully-automatic weapons are exceedingly rare in civilian hands to begin with.

[sjb2k1]

Automatic and by that I assume you mean fully-automatic weapons are exceedingly rare in civilian hands to begin with.
well, i said in an earlier post that i'm fine with the military having them. i suppose i could have linked that instead ha...unless there's some type of distinction between automatic weapons and assault rifles? i know exactly nothing about guns except not to point one at my face no matter what.

really, the only type of gun i have no problem with at all is a hunting rifle...people have to eat. but even then i'd prefer bow hunting.

[Skadrist]

well, i said in an earlier post that i'm fine with the military having them. i suppose i could have linked that instead ha...unless there's some type of distinction between automatic weapons and assault rifles? i know exactly nothing about guns except not to point one at my face no matter what.

really, the only type of gun i have no problem with at all is a hunting rifle...people have to eat. but even then i'd prefer bow hunting.

An assault rifle can shoot fully automatically or in burst mode meaning that it can shot more than one bullet with pulling of a trigger. Assault weapons shot one bullet with each pull of the trigger and have these features if one goes by the 1994 Ban that described them will include these features per wikipedia:

* An assault weapon might look like a military weapon but it won't fire in fully automatic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_Weapons_Ban

Semi-automatic rifles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle) able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
Folding or telescoping stock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescoping_stock)
Pistol grip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_grip)
Bayonet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonet) mount
Flash suppressor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_suppressor), or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
Grenade launcher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenade_launcher) (more precisely, a muzzle device which enables the launching or firing of rifle grenades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle_grenade)) Semi-automatic pistols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol) with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor)
Barrel shroud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_shroud) that can be used as a hand-hold
Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm Semi-automatic shotguns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun) with two or more of the following:
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
Detachable magazineI have no problem with gun control as it stands now like I said I am not one of those NRA guns for everyone types. I primarily view it as a hobby.

[sjb2k1]

An assault rifle can shoot fully automatically or in burst mode meaning that it can shot more than one bullet with pulling of a trigger. Assault weapons shot one bullet with each pull of the trigger and have these features if one goes by the 1994 Ban that described them will include these features per wikipedia:

* An assault weapon might look like a military weapon but it won't fire in fully automatic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_Weapons_Ban

Semi-automatic rifles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle) able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
Folding or telescoping stock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescoping_stock)
Pistol grip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_grip)
Bayonet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonet) mount
Flash suppressor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_suppressor), or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
Grenade launcher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenade_launcher) (more precisely, a muzzle device which enables the launching or firing of rifle grenades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle_grenade)) Semi-automatic pistols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol) with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor)
Barrel shroud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_shroud) that can be used as a hand-hold
Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm Semi-automatic shotguns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun) with two or more of the following:
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
Detachable magazineI have no problem with gun control as it stands now like I said I am not one of those NRA guns for everyone types. I primarily view it as a hobby.
well damn, i have some reading to do in the morning.

[DrStrong]

I dont think people should be able to carry guns in public, but when the zombies come, i'll be heading over to Turners Outdoors and stealing some shit.

[caveBEAR]

I dont think people should be able to carry guns in public, but when the zombies come, i'll be heading over to Turners Outdoors and stealing some shit.

Yeah, so will everyone else in your city. Good luck with that one.

[DrStrong]

Yeah, so will everyone else in your city. Good luck with that one.

haha yea i know, gotta get there early.

[VIVALAMATT]

I'm almost certain I'll be buying a gun when I start a family. I'll get training, knowledge on them, the whole nine yards. This is, of course, depending on what county on live in. The attainability really varies in CA.

[girthman]

Look i completely support owning guns. i my self own several rifles and will be purchasing a hand gun when i turn 21. To every one who says guns should be outlawed Ben Franklin once said that If Guns are outlawed then only criminals will have guns. To those that say having guns will not deterr criminals take the city of Kennesaw Georgia as an example. They require every citzen, except for religous exemptions to have a gun and ammunition in their house. They have on of the lowest burglary rates in the country


agreed

[Neo Cassady]

automatic weapons have no place in the hands of civilians.

Nor do any other type of gun sans hunting rifles.

[domotime2]

stricter restrictinos on gun control. obviously. haha i like hearing "i own multiple guns" on this thread. I feel great hearing that.

[bojl]

If you want protection, then buy a fucking samurai sword.

[caveBEAR]

If you want protection, then buy a fucking samurai sword.

Those work great against other guns.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

http://images.free-extras.com/pics/h/homer_with_a_gun-1081.jpg

[mattyrocks]

Those work great against other guns.


this.

[anthonydarko]

I have no problem with people owning guns. Granted however, I do think that automatic weapons shouldn't fall in the hands of unregistered people and that people shouldn't be able to purchase something like a .50 caliber Barret rifle.