Man fired for wanting to be a woman

[Praetor]

Steve Stanton loved this city he ran for 14 years. This week, he asked the city to love him back -- to accept his plans to pursue sex-change operation and let him keep his $140,000 job as city manager.

It didn't.

Almost 500 people packed into City Hall Tuesday night for a special meeting to decide if they would accept Susan instead of Steve as their top official.

And while many spoke eloquently in his defense, more called for his ouster.

``If Jesus was here tonight, I can guarantee you he'd want him terminated,'' said Pastor Ron Saunders of Largo's Lighthouse Baptist Church. ``Make no mistake about it.''

At the end of the 3-? hour meeting, the City Commission voted 5-2 to begin the legal process of firing Stanton, only a week after he was forced to reveal his secret by a local newspaper. He is on paid leave while the city begins the legal process to end his contract. He can appeal and the commission must vote again to formally fire him.

Transgender activists on Wednesday called Stanton's firing a ``shameful display of ignorance and bias.'' But they suggested Largo's quick decision to fire a respected government official may be the anecdote they need to convince Congress to extend employment protections to gays, lesbians and transsexuals.

``We think this is a really clear example of the type of employment discrimination that transgendered people face every day,'' said Simon Aronoff, deputy director of the National Center for Transgender Equality in Washington, D.C. ``By all accounts, he was doing a good job. The only reason he was fired is because he made the brave decision to live openly.''

Mathew Staver, founder of the conservative Liberty Counsel legal group, said the city had a duty to reconsider the employment of a top official planning such a drastic change.

``The city hasn't changed the work environment. He has changed the work environment,'' Staver said. ``He has to take into consideration the consequences of that personal decision. I think it would be more difficult for the city to retain this person because of how it might undermine the representation of the city in the eyes of the community. It could become very awkward.''

The vote to oust Stanton came only a day after a Christian university in Michigan fired a male professor living as a woman only days after she legally changed her name to something more feminine. The university claims the former John Nemecek did not honor the terms of her contract.

``I think they decided to terminate me rather than call me Julie,'' said Nemecek, an ordained Baptist minister who worked for 16 years on the faculty of Spring Arbor University. Both sides are scheduled to be in court ordered mediation in March. Despite such high-profile setbacks, Aronoff said the transgender movement is gaining ground.

``We think this is our year,'' he said.

Last summer, a judge ruled a Westchester, N.Y., cook who claims he was fired from an upscale restaurant because he was a woman living as a man was covered by the state's human rights law, even though it doesn't mention sexual orientation. The ruling cleared the way for a $3 million discrimination lawsuit to proceed.

The Human Rights Campaign Foundation, which also lobbies for gay, lesbian and transgendered rights, estimates 10 states and more than 90 local governments have included gender identity in their nondiscrimination policies.

Stanton supported a similar ordinance in Largo in 2003, but the fact he kept his personal life a secret then intensified the anger directed at him Tuesday night. Many in the crowd accused him of harboring a hidden agenda.

``I do not feel he has the integrity, nor the trust, nor the respect, nor the confidence to continue as the city manager of the city of Largo,'' said Commissioner Mary Gray Black, who introduced a resolution to fire Stanton.

Stanton listened with hands clasped throughout the 3? hour meeting.

``It's just real painful to know that seven days ago I was a good guy and now I have no integrity, I have no trust and most painful, I have no followers,'' Stanton told the crowd before the commission voted. ``Hopefully after all this is behind us, we'll be better for it.''

The surprise announcement stunned this city of 76,000 near St. Petersburg. Stanton said he had planned to reveal his secret this summer when his 13-year-old son was out of school.

Stanton, who is married, said he struggled with his secret desire to be a woman since childhood and hoped to ``outrun it.'' In 2003, he began counseling to deal with his feelings and ultimately decided to pursue a sex-change operation. He has not yet scheduled the surgery, but is undergoing counseling and hormone replacement therapy in preparation for the operation.

``I'm going to be embarrassed if we throw this man out on the trash heap after he's worked so hard for the city,'' said Mayor Patricia Gerard, one of a few Stanton chose to share his secret with before last week. ``We have a choice to make: We can go back to intolerance, or we can be the city of progress.''

Commissioner Gay Gentry praised Stanton, but supported his firing.

``I sense that he has lost his standing as a leader among the employees of the city,'' Gentry said. ``We have need of an organizational leader that employees will follow.''

Stanton left the room before the votes were cast, head down.

Gerard and Commissioner Rodney J. Woods _ the first black commissioner in the city's 102-year history _ cast the only votes in his favor.

Source (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-228sexchange,0,3703874,print.story? coll=sfla-home-headlines)

[aolsux]

America is fucked up, the quote that made me actually laugh out loud was:
"If Jesus was here tonight, I can guarantee you he'd want him terminated"
I find it so ironic how devout religious officials do nothing that the bible says they should do, like not judge and accept people for who they are. People like Ron Saunders, Mary Gray Black and Fred Phelps (the man who supported protesting against homosexuality at funerals of soldiers) deserve nothing better than a bullet in the face.

[Praetor]

America is fucked up, the quote that made me actually laugh out loud was:
"If Jesus was here tonight, I can guarantee you he'd want him terminated"
I find it so ironic how devout religious officials do nothing that the bible says they should do, like not judge and accept people for who they are. People like Ron Saunders, Mary Gray Black and Fred Phelps (the man who supported protesting against homosexuality at funerals of soldiers) deserve nothing better than a bullet in the face.
Well, I don't agree about the bullet part, but I do agree that these people are the definition of the word 'hypocrite.' What happened to acceptance? What happened to not being judgmental? It makes me ashamed to be a Christian.

[tambam]

America is fucked up, the quote that made me actually laugh out loud was:
"If Jesus was here tonight, I can guarantee you he'd want him terminated"
I find it so ironic how devout religious officials do nothing that the bible says they should do, like not judge and accept people for who they are. People like Ron Saunders, Mary Gray Black and Fred Phelps (the man who supported protesting against homosexuality at funerals of soldiers) deserve nothing better than a bullet in the face.

I completely agree with you.

[Praetor]

Link. (http://www.largo.com/index.cfm?action=contact)

[x togepi x]

this is america. you have the freedom to do whatever you want as long as other people don't think it's weird.

[Praetor]

I assume he can sue the city for firing him based on his trans gender status rarther than his imcompetance. So he should make a lot of money out of this hopefully.
I hope he does as well. This is blatant discrimination.

[x togepi x]

if it goes to the right court he will win.

[Trainsaw]

there's a guy at work (Mike) who is changing over to a woman (Michelle) its very odd to see him enter the womans bathroom, he's got the boobs and hair but i think he's still packing down under from what he's been telling folks

[Ambulance Y]

Yeah, this guy is obviously mentally unstable and is not in any state of mind to be a part of government.

[Smash Adams]

Yeah, this guy is obviously mentally unstable and is not in any state of mind to be a part of government.

I hope you're being sarcastic- it sounds like it

I read this yesterday and it definitely upset me- I guess people don't realize how hard this is to accept and to do, and I want to give this (wo)man a high five and possibly a hug

[Love As Arson]

He will have an excellent case if he decides to go to court.

[Praetor]

Yeah, this guy is obviously mentally unstable and is not in any state of mind to be a part of government.
Then, by your logic, women who get boob jobs are mentally unstable and should be fired from government positions.

[and we whisper]

it's weird that they said they were firing him because it would make it awkward and "because of how it might undermine the representation of the city in the eyes of the community." they don't care how people see them.

[Beloved Broken]

I'd love to hear directly from the priest where in the Bible is it said that people following their heart should be exterminated.

[Trainsaw]

Then, by your logic, women who get boob jobs are mentally unstable and should be fired from government positions.

I would think a more suitable comparison would be a woman wanting to become a man, the woman getting a breast enhancement is still staying the same gender.

[Praetor]

I would think a more suitable comparison would be a woman wanting to become a man, the woman getting a breast enhancement is still staying the same gender.
They're unhappy with the way their body is, and they undergo a procedure to change it. Sounds pretty similar to me.

[fenderkid212]

if it goes to the right court he will win.

yeah i think so too.

[Trainsaw]

They're unhappy with the way their body is, and they undergo a procedure to change it. Sounds pretty similar to me.

A boob job and a complete sex change are two different things.

He/She can do what ever they want to do, they have the freedom to do it, but i wouldn't classify those two things as similar. Anyone can be unhappy w/ their body, hell someone could be unhappy w/ their teeth and get them straightened but i wouldn't say that's on the same level as a full sex change.

[music3chick]

It's sad that people still treat others like that.
So what if he wanted a sex change? An operation just changes his physical appearance, not who he is as a person.

[trindaddy]

Well, I don't agree about the bullet part, but I do agree that these people are the definition of the word 'hypocrite.' What happened to acceptance? What happened to not being judgmental? It makes me ashamed to be a Christian.

i agree with you...

[x togepi x]

I would think a more suitable comparison would be a woman wanting to become a man, the woman getting a breast enhancement is still staying the same gender.

gender's a social construct.

if I decide to reject marriage, another social construct, does that make me somehow mentally unstable, like you're claiming this person is?

[Praetor]

gender's a social construct.

if I decide to reject marriage, another social construct, does that make me somehow mentally unstable, like you're claiming this person is?
This man took my argument.

The only reason that we think that a sex change is weird, is that society has deemed it weird. Straightening teeth, getting a boob job...we've become accustomed to things like that, so we deem it okay.

[Trainsaw]

gender's a social construct.

if I decide to reject marriage, another social construct, does that make me somehow mentally unstable, like you're claiming this person is?

show me where I said the person was mentally unstable

I never questioned the persons' mental state, I just made a comment that I don't see a sex change and boob job the same thing.

[Praetor]

show me where I said the person was mentally unstable

I never questioned the persons' mental state, I just made a comment that I don't see a sex change and boob job the same thing.
Both change something that they can't control about their body. Like I said, we've become desensitized to boob jobs, so we think it's okay, but transsexuality is still a 'weird' thing in our society.

[Trainsaw]

Both change something that they can't control about their body. Like I said, we've become desensitized to boob jobs, so we think it's okay, but transsexuality is still a 'weird' thing in our society.

I understand your point, i just don't agree with it, that's all. But I never said the person was mentally unstable

[Praetor]

I understand your point, i just don't agree with it, that's all. But I never said the person was mentally unstable
Oh, I know you never did...Togepi was the one who said you said that.

PS: Agreeing to disagree is fine by me. Haha.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

For the record, you should refer to someone who was born with a male body but wants to transition to a female body so as to unify physical and non-physical identities as SHE, not he, and certainly not He/She. Calling Susan a "he" in this case is a common mistake - the article did it, as most mainstream news articles would - but calling her a He/She just plays into the stereotype that transpeople are some kind of abberant monsters that defy categorization. We are talking about someone who self-identifies as a woman and feels that she can best express her identity by living in a female body. Respecting her choice means referring to her by the identity she has chosen.

I know that (most) of you have good intentions, and probably didn't know this was faux pax. I don't mean to lecture you, it's just important to know. I'm also glad there are so many people defending her. Even within the queer comunnity, transphobia and a generally appalling ignorance of trans issues is very common.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

Like, seriously the headline of this article itself is fucked up. This is not a man who got fired for wanting to be a woman. This is a woman who got fired for wanting a woman's body.

[catscradle]

Like, seriously the headline of this article itself is fucked up. This is not a man who got fired for wanting to be a woman. This is a woman who got fired for wanting a woman's body.

I'm not saying I agree with what happened here, but does having surgery to make a man physically look like a woman make that man a woman? Or do mammary glands, a uterus, fallopian tubes, vagina, clitoris, etc., make a woman a woman. Even if a man truly looks like a woman, he can't have baby, nurse one, ovulate or menstruate. Just because he looks like a woman doesn't make him one.

[catscradle]

Because its common decency to treat people as they wish to be treated so long at it doesnt affect you, its called tolerance.

Your missing my point. If I dressed up/or had surgery to look like a dolphin, would that make me a dolphin and would it be acceptable to call me one since it doesn't affect anyone.

[Smash Adams]

Your missing my point. If I dressed up/or had surgery to look like a dolphin, would that make me a dolphin and would it be acceptable to call me one since it doesn't affect anyone.

I doubt they would give you dolphin genitalia though

[catscradle]

I doubt they would give you dolphin genitalia though

Haha, maybe for the right amount of money!! You never know with plastic surgery these days...

[catscradle]

What about women who are sterile they cant bare children but they're still women.

I understand they're not born as men but i see no harm in treating them as women later.

Do you seriously want me to tell you why women who are sterile are still women? maybe it has something to do with the fact that they are actually women with XX chromosomes and barr bodies...just maybe.

[catscradle]

Not really i was just being fascecious last time as your definition of women had serious omissions. Alternate question: Why shouldnt they be consider women if that if that is their wish. Would you not say that after the operation they have more in common with women than men even if it stops short of a full transformation.

They shouldnt be considered women regardless of their wishes/physical appearance, for the shear fact that they arent genetically women (no XX chromosomes, and no barr bodies). Once again if had surgery to look like a dolphin, that doesnt make me a dolphin just because I wish to be one. Same thing goes for a robot who wants to be human, no matter how much it wants to be a human it can never truly become one. So why acknowledge it as something its not?

[catscradle]

its not a man either.

Yea, its still a man. Theres no way around it, if you took a DNA sample the results would be that he had XY chromosomes. I know a guy who turned out to really be a girl. At some point she had plastic surgery, took testosterone to grow a strip of facial hair and deepen her voice and everything else you can think of to make her look like a guy (yes, she even wore a strap on dildo with fake pubes). Any guess what he/she was listed as on the official police report when he/she was arrested? She was listed as female, even though she looks like a boy and all that other mumble jumbo. So no matter how bad a guy wants to be a female, this can never be achieved in a literal/genetic sense.

[dai the flu]

can't anybody just think something is wrong anymore?

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

There's an online petition if you want to show your opposition to intolerance. I don't think online petitions are that effectie, but its something: http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/Petition.cfm


They shouldnt be considered women regardless of their wishes/physical appearance, for the shear fact that they arent genetically women (no XX chromosomes, and no barr bodies). Once again if had surgery to look like a dolphin, that doesnt make me a dolphin just because I wish to be one. Same thing goes for a robot who wants to be human, no matter how much it wants to be a human it can never truly become one. So why acknowledge it as something its not?

First off, comparing human beings to animals and machines is not acceptable.

Secondly, XX chromosomes are not even the definition of sex, let alone gender.

For example, some intersexed people are born with an underdeveloped penis and testes but have two XX chromosomes. Some are born with vaginas but have XY chromosomes. What are they? Sex is about physica qualities - so do we look at genetics or anatomy when they come into conflict? The first thing you learn from that is that SEX is a social construct inasmuch as gender is. It is the product of multiple and sometimes contradictory discourses on science and the body. The second thing you learn is that sex and gender do not determine one another. Sex refers to the properties of the body, gender refers to the socially assigned attributes of sexed bodies. Being female is a sex, being effeminite is a gender identity that has to do with social descriptions of how people who are feminine should act and look.That is why Simone de Beauvior said that "One is not born a woman, one becomes one" - gendering is a process of socialization.

The upshot of unraveling gender from the body is that people are whatever gender they understand themselves to be in light of a social situation. If we believe that the gender identity "woman" entails certain qualities, and a city manager says "Well, I think those qualities describe me and how I think of myself" then that person is a woman. Biologically, the person may be male (of the male sex), but the GENDER is female. This makes sense because the intersexed people described above will always have the sex of intersexed, but they will typically CHOOSE a gender to live as. They willd ress a certain way, behae a certain way, and live life as the gender identity that suits them best. They may even undergo surgery to make their body more like the body associated with their gender. Just like the woman this whole debate is about. Gender is about identity, and if someone identifies as a certain gender and wants to bring their body into accord witht heir comprehension of that gender identity, there is no reason to treat them as less than a person any more than we would mistreat someone who expresses their gender identity in choice of clothing, hairstyle, etc..

its not a man either.

SHE is a woman. Stop the "it" business, you ignorant sack of shit. Transpeople are not objects.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

can't anybody just think something is wrong anymore?

You are entitled to your opinion. But firing someone for their job and ruining their life because of your opinion is not okay if you can't articulate reasons why your opinion is valid and should be an acceptable reason for limitng the freedom of other people.

[dai the flu]

You are entitled to your opinion. But firing someone for their job and ruining their life because of your opinion is not okay if you can't articulate reasons why your opinion is valid and should be an acceptable reason for limitng the freedom of other people.
fair enough.

[Love As Arson]

I recommend reading this book:

"I know I'm not a man...and I've come to the conclusion that I'm probably not a woman, either...The trouble is, we're living in a world that insists we be one or the other." — Kate Bornstein in Gender Outlaw: On Men, Women, and the Rest of Us

[catscradle]

First off, comparing human beings to animals and machines is not acceptable.

Secondly, XX chromosomes are not even the definition of sex, let alone gender.

For example, some intersexed people are born with an underdeveloped penis and testes but have two XX chromosomes. Some are born with vaginas but have XY chromosomes. What are they?


SHE is a woman. Stop the "it" business, you ignorant sack of shit. Transpeople are not objects.

This man is as much genetically similar to a woman as one who would undergo my species altering surgery is to a dolphin, so i will continue to use that analogy.

[catscradle]

"One is not born a woman, one becomes one"
Biologically, the person may be male (of the male sex), but the GENDER is female. This makes sense because the intersexed people described above will always have the sex of intersexed, but they will typically CHOOSE a gender to live as. They may even undergo surgery to make their body more like the body associated with their gender.



One is born either male or female( hermaphrodites are a little different as their sex is more ambiguous),but to say biologically hes a male and say "of the male sex" and imply his gender is female is ridiculous. You are right though, one is not born a women, yet she is born female. This guy was born a male and will die a male, their is simply no way around it. You keep referring to hermaphrodites, but thats a whole different ballgame, they have choice (more so their parents) to become one sex or the other as they usually have predispositions that lean towards one sex or the other, but this guy is not intersexed. he is a male and will always remain a male until the day he dies as he was not born intersexed.

[catscradle]

I agree they are not scientifically women but i see no harm in treating them as women. Its what we do in an accepting society.

i'll agree with you there, but to get all up in arms if called a man, when they are actually a man just seems silly to me.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

Why is that we have to refer to people by their born sex rather than their chosen gender? The fact that you are willing to extend the freedom to identify otherwise to intersexed people (hermaphrodite is an archaic term that most people don't use any more) proves that there is nothing logically or morally preposterous about doing so.

Moreover, since you admit that gender is just how society interprets our bodies, why can't we have the freedom to reinterpret our bodies as we choose?

[Love As Arson]

One is born either male or female( hermaphrodites are a little different as their sex is more ambiguous),but to say biologically hes a male and say "of the male sex" and imply his gender is female is ridiculous. You are right though, one is not born a women, yet she is born female. This guy was born a male and will die a male, their is simply no way around it. You keep referring to hermaphrodites, but thats a whole different ballgame, they have choice (more so their parents) to become one sex or the other as they usually have predispositions that lean towards one sex or the other, but this guy is not intersexed. he is a male and will always remain a male until the day he dies as he was not born intersexed.
The way the body is interpreted is defined by society, making gender and sex completely fluid, rather than static as you argue.

[catscradle]

The way the body is interpreted is defined by society, making gender and sex completely fluid, rather than static as you argue.

i'm just trying to understand what you're saying exactly. so in a hypothetical world, if this society determines that it is in the proper social construct that men can bear children, then will men start to have children, as society has deemed the role of a male to include child birth?

i agree that society produces gender roles, but i do not think that it determines a sex. Animals do not share the same social constructs as humans, but they most definitely are male and are female and fall into gender specific roles. Maybe such roles have some type of genetic predisposition.

[MagicxMurderBag]

it is sad cause I watched that guy on the news the other day how this guy spent his whole life waiting to be himself only to be fired..that is horrible.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

Scientifically gender is a flat out male or female yes or no answer. A transexual will always be scientifically their original gender. I am more than happy to treat them as though they are whatever gender they wish but until science advances somewhat they will always be their original gender in a scientific sense.

Wrong. Gender is fluid and social. SEX is biological. And een that is not male/female/yes/no, read the above discussion of intersexed people. If someone has a penis but XX chromosomes, are they a man or a woman? Not so easy.

There are more than two genders, also. The idea that gender has 1:1 correspondence ratio with biological sex is not universal. Most native american tribes, for example, had "bardiche" members of society who were biologically men but wore "female" clothing and performed an entirely seperate set of roles in society than men and women. Sometimes they married men, sometimes women. So it wasn;t just "men acting like women" or "men who were attracted to men" - the bardiche held an antirely distinct gender category unrelated to sex.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

Who's to say that all transexuals have the mutated chromozones i imagine most are their original sex in all but thier own minds. Gender and sex are the same thing, the roles of these are social constructs but that does prevent there from being two basic genders/sexes which 99.99999% percent of people suscribe to.

I agree that most transfolk are not intersexed, and that most people are fine with the gender binary. But looking at fringe cases exposes how the whole system operates - like studying abberant mental conditions to learn more about how the brain typically works, yes?

But gender and sex are not the same thing. Gender is " Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture" wheras sex is "The property or quality by which organisms are classified as female or male on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions." So gender is more than just what you have in your pants, mkay?

And lastly, for the bajillionth time, just because a lot of people are okay with the binary system of gender as correspondent to one of two given sexes, doesnt mean we should ounish people who ARENT happy with it. They arent hurting anyone, so let them be.

[Love As Arson]

i'm just trying to understand what you're saying exactly. so in a hypothetical world, if this society determines that it is in the proper social construct that men can bear children, then will men start to have children, as society has deemed the role of a male to include child birth?
No, that is not what I am saying. In our society there is a social construct within which one's identity is designated by physical characteristics and, moreover, those same characteristics are directly linked to personality. That is an incorrect assessment, rather, what is male/female is not predicated upon those characteristics, but the state of mind of an individual. If one considers themselves a female, they are, as opposed to your argument that suggests these things are intrinsically linked to those body-parts. As you can see, my point of contention is not with the realities of the human body, it is with the illusory groups we assign our populace to without their consent.


i agree that society produces gender roles, but i do not think that it determines a sex. Animals do not share the same social constructs as humans, but they most definitely are male and are female and fall into gender specific roles. Maybe such roles have some type of genetic predisposition.
Actually, the same differentiations found in humanity, we find in the animal species.

[Love As Arson]

I still maintain that sex and gender is exactly what you were born with downstairs and you provided no evidence only opinion as the why i should change my mind.
Read works on gender theory. Most theorists have come to the conclusion that sex and gender are a determinant of the framework of a given society. Also, one should consider the other civilisations throughout the world which have had more than two gender system.

[halifaxonfire]

A little off topic maybe..but what would he legally be considered after the surgery?

[walking_person]

this is america. you have the freedom to do whatever you want as long as other people don't think it's weird.
correct, but shouldn't be that way. if people think you are weird it is their problem.

[halifaxonfire]

correct, but shouldn't be that way. if people think you are weird it is their problem.
Unfortunately, it most likely will remain that way. Like he said, this is America.

[walking_person]

Unfortunately, it most likely will remain that way. Like he said, this is America.

they really start to teach you this in kindergarden when one (or a small group of people) person ruin if for everyone. you don't always realize they teach the disappoint you may experience for the rest of your life at such a young age.

edit: i mean the group of people finding something that you do weird.