Libya

[jwicklun]

Like Egypt, the situation currently in Libya deserves a thread and a discussion. Gadhafi's son just gave a very insinuating statement saying that Libya might erupt in civil war and vows to fight protesters till death. Over 200 have died and it's about to escalate.

[EchoPark]

al-Gaddafi is a Pan-Arabist. A secularist.

If he is overthrown, let's pray a hardline Islamist party does not take control of the state and create another Saudi Arabia in the region.

[secretsociety92]

Hope this goes well and it doesn't get any worse for the protesters. Always wondered what kind of impact protests like this would have over here.

[Junction183]

al-Gaddafi is a Pan-Arabist. A secularist.

If he is overthrown, let's pray a hardline Islamist party does not take control of the state and create another Saudi Arabia in the region.
couldn't agree more, I can only hope our media covers these protests responsibly and hesitate supporting "democratic" protests before knowing what's really going on.

[jwicklun]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/21/libya-protests-gadhafis-h_n_826080.html
Getting even more violent.

[J.C.]

We haven't been on good terms since Doc Brown stole their plutonium.

[caveBEAR]

al-Gaddafi is a Pan-Arabist. A secularist.

If he is overthrown, let's pray a hardline Islamist party does not take control of the state and create another Saudi Arabia in the region.

couldn't agree more, I can only hope our media covers these protests responsibly and hesitate supporting "democratic" protests before knowing what's really going on.

:squint:

[J.C.]

It can only be democracy if it's Bush-enforced.

[lordjedediah]

We haven't been on good terms since Doc Brown stole their plutonium.


amazing

[jwicklun]

I really cannot see anyone standing by his regime considering he's shooting down protesters with aircrafts.

[mattyrocks]

We haven't been on good terms since Doc Brown stole their plutonium.

spectacular.

[deFobbed14yrs]

couldn't agree more, I can only hope our media covers these protests responsibly and hesitate supporting "democratic" protests before knowing what's really going on.

???

[bandnamexmyname]

Gaddafi is fucking crazy.

[sweepthenation]

These revolutions are getting slightly more violent as they move from country to country. Although this was to be expected in Libya; there's no chance Gaddafi willingly gives up power without massacring a few thousand

[Buscemi Knows Best]

NDS81Ibazdk

[Buscemi Knows Best]

We haven't been on good terms since Doc Brown stole their plutonium.

just saw your excellent post once i already posted the scene above from back to the future. well done sir!

[Buscemi Knows Best]

We haven't been on good terms since Doc Brown stole their plutonium.

just saw your excellent post once i already posted the scene above from back to the future. well done sir!

[rawspinner]

We haven't been on good terms since Doc Brown stole their plutonium.

the greatest.

[TheWonderYears]

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE71K23020110221

Libyan airforce colonels ordered to attack protestors in fighter jets... instead they fly to Malta and defect.

[Machu505]

Ridding the world of Gaddafi would be a greater victory than either Tunisia's or Egypt's revolutions. Ben Ali and Mubarak are nothing compared to the Colonel.

[caveBEAR]

Ridding the world of Gaddafi would be a greater victory than either Tunisia's or Egypt's revolutions. Ben Ali and Mubarak are nothing compared to the Colonel.

Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, until we know what religion the new democracy may lean towards and what countries they're going to ally with, we're going to need to support al-Gaddafi. 'Evil you know' and all that.


:rolleyes:

[Machu505]

Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, until we know what religion the new democracy may lean towards and what countries they're going to ally with, we're going to need to support al-Gaddafi. 'Evil you know' and all that.


:rolleyes: Lord knows I love a good iron fist ruling my north African states.

[etheritcher]

Gaddafi is a madman.

[Under The Knife]

How long before the USA donates to Libya and gets us deeper in debt?

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

How long before the USA donates to Libya and gets us deeper in debt?

:hitself:

[bNz719]

Plenty of dumb comments in here. I feel the same that has applied to every other revolution applies to this. The success of a revolution depends on the intentions and effectiveness of the next government to tend to its people's needs. While I do feel that Gaddafi really needs to go, the last thing anyone, including the Libyan people, needs is an extremist party to fill the vacuum of power that would be left by the removal of this regime.

[saysmydoctor]

Really is not satisfying some people. A muslim state protests against a vicious, authoritarian government and immediately everyone presumes it's all down hill from there.

Is that what happened when the US broke away from Britain?

[caveBEAR]

Really is not satisfying some people. A muslim state protests against a vicious, authoritarian government and immediately everyone presumes it's all down hill from there.

Is that what happened when the US broke away from Britain?

Yes.

I miss tea and crumpets.

[CheckeredFloors]

http://www.petitiononline.com/01031988/

Link to sign a petition urging the UN to intervene.

[Machu505]

How long before the USA donates to Libya and gets us deeper in debt?
I know whenever I'm given the chance to free a nation of people, I always consider my checkbook first.

This is seriously the most irrelevent interjection to the discussion possible. The only thing worse would have been somebody worrying about the jobs of Gaddafi's female virgin bodyguards in this tough economy.

[Under The Knife]

They bombed the airports in Libya. Now they’re sure no other country will interfere and everyone can be killed.

[mattyrocks]

They bombed the airports in Libya. Now they’re sure no other country will interfere and everyone can be killed.

they wha??

[Under The Knife]

they wha??

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2011/02/benghazi-airport-runways/144054/1

[Simulcast]

Too bad the Romans lost control of this area.

[The_Blackout94]

Reports that the SAS is being sent in to 'help evacuate people'. You don't use the best special forces squadron in the world to 'evacuate' people. This means the UK is doing one of 2 things.

1) Trying to end it all before it gets out of hand. Gaddaffi needs getting rid of, and they're sending the SAS to do it.
2) Securing Oil. Very profitable area. They need the oil fields and can't afford for a civil war to happen.

Either way, brace yourselves for a huge cover-up.

[Simulcast]

Reports that the SAS is being sent in to 'help evacuate people'. You don't use the best special forces squadron in the world to 'evacuate' people. This means the UK is doing one of 2 things.

1) Trying to end it all before it gets out of hand. Gaddaffi needs getting rid of, and they're sending the SAS to do it.
2) Securing Oil. Very profitable area. They need the oil fields and can't afford for a civil war to happen.

Either way, brace yourselves for a huge cover-up.

As silly as this sounds, I'm pretty sure oil was the motivation for the early release of the Lockerbie Bomber. Thought the guy had a few months to live. Looks like a few years now.

[The_Blackout94]

As silly as this sounds, I'm pretty sure oil was the motivation for the early release of the Lockerbie Bomber. Thought the guy had a few months to live. Looks like a few years now.

Thats what everyone thinks. Wasn't there an inquest into it about a year ago? Cause the British Government came under fire for it as apparently they pressed them to release him early for oil. Something like that. I'm pretty sure BP got a bit of blame for it aswell. But this was just after the oil spill, so they were the scapegoats of the moment.

[saysmydoctor]

Too bad the Romans lost control of this area.
Yes, then Berlusconi could have fucked his way out of this problem.

[Simulcast]

Yes, then Berlusconi could have fucked his way out of this problem.

The Romans lost Rome too...

[saysmydoctor]

The Romans lost Rome too...
I was just looking for a reason to say "fuck his way out of <blank>."

[Simulcast]

I was just looking for a reason to say "fuck his way out of <blank>."

Hahahaha

[Simulcast]

Someone needs to kill Qaddafi quick (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/25/latest-updates-on-libyas-revolt-and-mideast-protests/#more-video-said-to-show-protests-and-clashes-in-tripoli).

[The_Blackout94]

Someone needs to kill Qaddafi quick (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/25/latest-updates-on-libyas-revolt-and-mideast-protests/#more-video-said-to-show-protests-and-clashes-in-tripoli).

I agree. If it goes on for another week, I can't help but think that the UN will get involved/ not get involved and let the US/ some other country do something about him.

They're talking about sanctions and things affecting trade. It's gone way too far for sanctions to affect him. The only way this can be stopped now is assassination, or him seeing sense for some reason and stepping down. But thats highly unlikely.

[saysmydoctor]

The US really should just stay the hell out of that. Just convey our support for the protesters. Boom. No need to involved in any other way.

[The_Blackout94]

I see where you're coming from. Lets not have another Iraq and all that, but I think they could do it in a way so that noone knows it was actually them. Like blame it on a rouge protester. Egypt was one thing. Mubarak could go just by supporting the protesters vocally, but Gaddafi is much stronger, and is better equipped to 'deal' with the protesters. Something needs to be done.

Edit: Fuck. Missed my 500th post. Damn.

[saysmydoctor]

If a President could speak honestly about Libya....
(http://www.cnas.org/blogs/abumuqawama/2011/02/if-us-president-could-speak-honestly-about-libya.html)

[gsplug]

I think the people in Libya can not overthrown the Gaddafi rule.
The reason is Libya is not Iraq and Gaddafi have well equopment force with loyalty.
If the protester can not get rid of his amy,then the army will get rid of them.

I think the democraty in Libya is hard to fufil.
So I back up the idea maybe Bush can settle the Gaddafi.But apparently,Obama do not want
himself involved in the battle.Because he do not have any good reason to attend the war.It's civil war.Not the war to fight terrorist.
So it's vain the Libya proteseter to fight the goverment even though they are fighting for democraty.
Fushi glow plug (http://www.cn-glowplug.com) and spark plug (http://www.cn-glowplug.com) staff write the message.

[J.C.]

Amazing.

[*crying stars*]

Hoping for the best and more civilians aren't killed.
President Obama: Gaddafi Must Leave Now. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/26/libya-protests-obama-gaddafi-leave-now_n_828712.html)

Lord knows I love a good iron fist ruling my north African states.

Yes, then Berlusconi could have fucked his way out of this problem.

HAHAHAHAH
Oh geez, I'm in hysterics.

[caveBEAR]

Democraty :lol:

[bNz719]

Holy spell-check. :crackup:

[jwicklun]

Fantastic.
:lol:

[perceptrons]

Well, he is from China apparently.

[Nuns On A Bus]

Things are getting even worse, with Pro-Gadhafi forces now starting to retake some cities. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/af_libya#mwpphu-container)

[Irishboyv2]

We better stay out of it, If we don't the US is going to have it's own national protests on its hands.

[Love As Arson]

I guess the answer to a region destabilized by imperialism is more imperialism.

[J.C.]

I guess the answer to a region destabilized by imperialism is more imperialism.

doublin' down

[GuitarR0cker1]

I'd support joint military action in Libya from NATO.

The region might be somewhat destabilized by "imperialism" but that isn't the root cause of this revolutionary wave, not even close.

[Love As Arson]

I'd support joint military action in Libya from NATO.

The region might be somewhat destabilized by "imperialism" but that isn't the root cause of this revolutionary wave, not even close.
The countries that are experiencing these waves have had strongmen supported by the United States and its European allies, whose oppression are eliciting protests now. The reason military intervention is now on the table is due to the fact that these revolutionary actions caught us by surprise and we'd like to get a handle on it before the people begin making decisions for themselves, which may run counter to our interests. In effect, military intervention would be counter-revolutionary.

[joeag1985]

I think the people in Libya can not overthrown the Gaddafi rule.
The reason is Libya is not Iraq and Gaddafi have well equopment force with loyalty.
If the protester can not get rid of his amy,then the army will get rid of them.

I think the democraty in Libya is hard to fufil.
So I back up the idea maybe Bush can settle the Gaddafi.But apparently,Obama do not want
himself involved in the battle.Because he do not have any good reason to attend the war.It's civil war.Not the war to fight terrorist.
So it's vain the Libya proteseter to fight the goverment even though they are fighting for democraty.
Fushi glow plug (http://www.cn-glowplug.com) and spark plug (http://www.cn-glowplug.com) staff write the message.


Is this Mr. Sparkle?

[saysmydoctor]

doublin' down
:lol:

[GuitarR0cker1]

The countries that are experiencing these waves have had strongmen supported by the United States and its European allies, whose oppression are eliciting protests now. The reason military intervention is now on the table is due to the fact that these revolutionary actions caught us by surprise and we'd like to get a handle on it before the people begin making decisions for themselves, which may run counter to our interests. In effect, military intervention would be counter-revolutionary.
Military intervention hasn't been brought up towards any other nations' unrest except for Libya for obvious reasons.

We haven't propped up Gadaffi. There's an argument that Italy, the UK and some European powers have been neutral towards mildly friendly towards him over the past 10 years but come on, now all of his international reputation has been destroyed. It's just intellectually dishonest to put forth the same arguments that you would make with regards to Egypt and Yemen towards Libya.

I don't support nation-building or any of that bullshit, I just think we should help the rebels remove Gaddaffi from power and spare the nation some continued bloodshit. Plus helping this situation come to a close would be nice for $$$ purposes via a reduction in oil prices from a more stable situation. It could increase goodwill with the new government in Libya too which is always a nice thing.

Edit: it doesn't even have to be direct intervention, we could just take down any Libyan military aircraft in their airspace and arm the rebels.

[saysmydoctor]

Comedic interlude: Qaddafis and Bluths.
(http://www.tnr.com/slideshow/world/84651/qaddafi-bluth-libya-arrested-development)

[Love As Arson]

We haven't propped up Gadaffi. There's an argument that Italy, the UK and some European powers have been neutral towards mildly friendly towards him over the past 10 years but come on, now all of his international reputation has been destroyed. It's just intellectually dishonest to put forth the same arguments that you would make with regards to Egypt and Yemen towards Libya.

After he indicated he'd no longer seek weapons of mass destruction, the United States provided him with legitimacy.

Military intervention hasn't been brought up towards any other nations' unrest except for Libya for obvious reasons.
What obvious reasons are those?


I don't support nation-building or any of that bullshit, I just think we should help the rebels remove Gaddaffi from power and spare the nation some continued bloodshit.

It is for the people of Libya to achieve their freedom. Only then will it be certain that, whatever comes out of it, it will be the interests of them and not of spoiled westerners who'd like cheaper oil prices.

[MoeWrites]

Well Arabs are crazy, nothing makes sense with us! (is it racist if i'm one?)

We don't want another Saudi Arabia, but we also don't want another Iraq...
We need Democracy but that doesn't mean it should be enforced by another country.

The solution must come from within.
but what do I know, i just live in the region.

[richter915]

I love how this stuff has taken a backseat to charlie sheen in the media's eyes.

Just to update, some sources have the death toll at around 6,000 (compared to less than 400 in egypt).

[The_Blackout94]

Apparently a team of SAS have been captured by rebels. Seems like the UK just got involved in something it really shouldn't have.

[saysmydoctor]

Apparently a team of SAS have been captured by rebels. Seems like the UK just got involved in something it really shouldn't have.
They were escorting a diplomat of some sort out of the country and the rebels were trying to confirm their identities before they released them. They weren't "getting involved."

[The_Blackout94]

They were escorting a diplomat of some sort out of the country and the rebels were trying to confirm their identities before they released them. They weren't "getting involved."

The diplomats were only there to try and negotiate with the rebels in order to topple Gafaffi and the SAS were their armed guards. Thus getting involved. They were arrested after they were found to be armed.

[Nuns On A Bus]

Obama asks Saudis to supply weapons to the rebels. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/americas-secret-plan-to-arm-libyas-rebels-2234227.html)

[knash9]

No fly zone

[saysmydoctor]

The diplomats were only there to try and negotiate with the rebels in order to topple Gafaffi and the SAS were their armed guards. Thus getting involved. They were arrested after they were found to be armed.
Wait, so your idea of getting involved is trying to communicate with the rebels?

Well then, every single country in the world that has a stake in this is involved.

What fucking dumb logic.

[The_Blackout94]

Wait, so your idea of getting involved is trying to communicate with the rebels?

Well then, every single country in the world that has a stake in this is involved.

What fucking dumb logic.

Lol. The diplomats were there negotiating with the rebels. They were actively there, although in secret, to try to topple Gadaffi and help the rebels. Not getting involved would be doing nothing and letting it go to a natural end. I don't get how you don't understand that :/

And it doesn't matter now. The UN resolution has been passed to allow Britain and France to start bombing Libya. That's definitely getting involved. I would bet my life that SAS have been in the country, marking zones to be bombed and taking out anti air weaponry for the past few weeks as well, just in preparation for this happening.

[Posthardcore]

11 US ships involved.. Good job Obama

U.S. Launches First Missile Strike Against Qaddafi's Regime

[mattmatumbo]

Allez la France.

Old news, but French pilots have opened fire on military vehicles around Benghazi, US warships have launched Tomahawk cruise missiles, and David Cameron stated that UK war planes (probably Tornado class) are on their way to battle.

http://www.france24.com/fr/20110319-...rienne-kadhafi (http://www.france24.com/fr/20110319-revolte-libyenne-temps-reel-revolution-attaque-benghazi-onu-resolution-conseil-securite-zone-exclusion-aerienne-kadhafi)

[The_Blackout94]

Finally, something is being done. US ships, British Submarine and airforce, and French Airforce. Shit is going down. But seriously, it's about time. Also, what did Gadaffi mean when he said the UN will 'regret' taking action against him? Whats he going to do?

[Nuns On A Bus]

Finally, something is being done. US ships, British Submarine and airforce, and French Airforce. Shit is going down. But seriously, it's about time. Also, what did Gadaffi mean when he said the UN will 'regret' taking action against him? Whats he going to do?

Massacre more of his people, just to stick it to the UN?

[Posthardcore]

Obama better not fuck this one up.

[J.C.]

I'm sure you have an excellent grasp of the situation, Posthardcore.

[Buscemi Knows Best]

Obama better not fuck this one up.

the success and failure of this mission surely rests on his big picture decision making alone, and not on any of those actually involved in the strike...

[mattmatumbo]

Obama better not fuck this one up.

He already stated he's not sending ground troops.

[mattyrocks]

we arent sending ground troops as of now.

this could get out of hand very quickly.

[J.C.]

Let the French take this one. They seem like they really want it.

[Posthardcore]

He already stated he's not sending ground troops.
Unless Gadafi decides to attack the seas.

[saysmydoctor]

He already stated he's not sending ground troops.
This is really a bullshit claim by Obama. 11 ships are being sent into the area. On board some of them, it's guaranteed there are ground forces. Guaranteed. The ground forces are there. Sending them in? Perhaps not, but to say that there is no infantry support is complete bullshit.

[Hamlet]

Go rebels!

[maxvsmaradona]

Let the French take this one. They seem like they really want it.

I agree. They have the drive! To me, the French are like "Fuck yeah, let's go!" and we're like "Yeah, I guess we can fire the missiles"

or something

[saysmydoctor]

http://www.timesunion.com/mediaManager/?controllerName=image&action=get&id=667680&width=628&height=471

Bombs over Benghazi - Outkast

[mattmatumbo]

This is really a bullshit claim by Obama. 11 ships are being sent into the area. On board some of them, it's guaranteed there are ground forces. Guaranteed. The ground forces are there. Sending them in? Perhaps not, but to say that there is no infantry support is complete bullshit.

I'm hopeful. hahahahaha.

[*crying stars*]

A defiant Gadhafi said Libya will fight back against undeserved "naked aggression." His military claimed nearly 50 people, including, women, children and clerics, were killed in Saturday evening's attacks. (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/20/libya-live-blog-allied-airstrikes-continue-against-gadhafi-forces/)

[Nuns On A Bus]

Would anyone put it past him to shoot a few of his own civilians in order to make the UN look bad?

[bNz719]

Apparently, he's already ordered some of his soldiers to damage power generators in order to frame the air strikes. Definitely would not put it past him to do that, given his track record.

What I'm most concerned about regarding this U.N. resolution is when does it end? When Gadhafi is out of power or when the violence stops, at which point, the country is divided in two and both sides would be ready to take arms again in no time. What isn't clear is whether our (U.S., England, France, etc) aim to get rid of Gadhafi or protect his citizens?

[Mitch]

What isn't clear is whether our (U.S., England, France, etc) aim to get rid of Gadhafi or protect his citizens?

Is our goal ever actually to "protect citizens" by "instilling democracy"?

[bNz719]

Is our goal ever actually to "protect citizens" by "instilling democracy"?

This instance puts more emphasis on protecting citizens than other U.S.-involved conflicts.
While I do believe the U.N. is justified in intervening in the Gadhafi's violence against his citizens, it just worries me that there is no defined endgame at this point despite what Obama said.

[PunkInfluence09]

I believe the people of Libya do indeed need help, but I am not sure if it was right for America to provide such force so quickly. I do believe that Gafhafi needs to be out of power though.

America can not continue to play big brother to the entire world.

[bNz719]

I'm hoping that France, Jordan, the UAE, and England remain in charge of this operation. The U.S. would be best suited to remain in a supporting role.

[saysmydoctor]

I'm hoping that France, Jordan, the UAE, and England remain in charge of this operation. The U.S. would be best suited to remain in a supporting role.
I don't see the difference.

[bNz719]

I don't see the difference.

Yeah, I'm not sure what I was trying to say with that.
I guess the end result I'm looking for is for the immediate end to the violence against the Libyan people.
I do think the U.N. resolution was the only way to achieve that result immediately.
I'm just not sure what happens next.

[Irishboyv2]

Yeah, I'm not sure what I was trying to say with that.
I guess the end result I'm looking for is for the immediate end to the violence against the Libyan people.
I do think the U.N. resolution was the only way to achieve that result immediately.
I'm just not sure what happens next.

More deaths, bombings and bloodshed. I fear this is going to drug out just like the Iraq war.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I don't see the difference.
Optics.

[The_Blackout94]

I believe the people of Libya do indeed need help, but I am not sure if it was right for America to provide such force so quickly. I do believe that Gafhafi needs to be out of power though.

America can not continue to play big brother to the entire world.

That only happens because the US likes to think it is. Though it may shock you to hear, most countries don't want US help. They're perfectly content living within their means. The US needs to stop getting involved with countries that clearly don't need their 'help' or interference.

[GuitarR0cker1]

That only happens because the US likes to think it is. Though it may shock you to hear, most countries don't want US help. They're perfectly content living within their means. The US needs to stop getting involved with countries that clearly don't need their 'help' or interference.
You're a fucking idiot. I'm pretty sure that the rebels and families of the rebels and even innocent bystanders in Benghazi were begging for international aid so that they wouldn't be slaughtered. In fact there were huge celebrations and waving of French flags when the no fly zone went into effect. This isolationist schtick that has become popular lately is absurd, every nation wants some sort of help or aid in times of need and there's a definite advantage to nations that deliever for diplomatic purposes.

[PunkInfluence09]

That only happens because the US likes to think it is. Though it may shock you to hear, most countries don't want US help. They're perfectly content living within their means. The US needs to stop getting involved with countries that clearly don't need their 'help' or interference.

While many countries don't want the USA's help, saying that Libya didn't is just a tad on the ignorant side.

[open mind]

While many countries don't want the USA's help, saying that Libya didn't is just a tad on the ignorant side.

that depends on which libyans you talk to.

[PandoraMichael]

Like Egypt, the situation currently in Libya deserves a thread and a discussion. Gadhafi's son just gave a very insinuating statement saying that Libya might erupt in civil war and vows to fight protesters till death. Over 200 have died and it's about to escalate.
Really unbelievable thAT the USA now has put out so many army to the place and I think and have the kind of the prediction that the third world war is about to begin

[The_Blackout94]

You're a fucking idiot. I'm pretty sure that the rebels and families of the rebels and even innocent bystanders in Benghazi were begging for international aid so that they wouldn't be slaughtered. In fact there were huge celebrations and waving of French flags when the no fly zone went into effect. This isolationist schtick that has become popular lately is absurd, every nation wants some sort of help or aid in times of need and there's a definite advantage to nations that deliever for diplomatic purposes.

Ahaha. Did I say Libya didn't need or want the help? Exactly. The UN has agreed that Libya needed help and it is coalition forces, not just the US. The US, however needs to stop getting involved on their own in things that don't concern them. They took the Ruhr line on Libya, and took the right line on Egypt. However, they cannot go getting involved in other things. Pushing for democracy us one thing, having a constant military presence in a country is another. Why have bases in random countries that obviously don't want them? That's what I'm talking about. And the US needs to stop pretending it's so superior to every other country. It will only end badly. They are making too many enemies around the world, an with more countries having governments that, combined, could rise up, the US needs to shut their shit. It's not just my opinion either, I'm pretty sure it's the opinion of most of the globe.

[*crying stars*]

I think it's more of a double edged sword. If we get involved, it's us "playing big brother" in people's minds. But if we stay away from matters, everyone questions why "the Americans have done nothing".

If innocent people are getting killed, there is usually enough voices in the country/US that call for involvement.

[mattyrocks]

I think it's more of a double edged sword. If we get involved, it's us "playing big brother" in people's minds. But if we stay away from matters, everyone questions why "the Americans have done nothing".

If innocent people are getting killed, there is usually enough voices in the country/US that call for involvement.

thats exactly what it is.

damned if we do and damned if we dont.

[paper halo]

Ahaha. Did I say Libya didn't need or want the help? Exactly. The UN has agreed that Libya needed help and it is coalition forces, not just the US. The US, however needs to stop getting involved on their own in things that don't concern them. They took the Ruhr line on Libya, and took the right line on Egypt. However, they cannot go getting involved in other things. Pushing for democracy us one thing, having a constant military presence in a country is another. Why have bases in random countries that obviously don't want them? That's what I'm talking about. And the US needs to stop pretending it's so superior to every other country. It will only end badly. They are making too many enemies around the world, an with more countries having governments that, combined, could rise up, the US needs to shut their shit. It's not just my opinion either, I'm pretty sure it's the opinion of most of the globe.

You know where you live don't you?

[The_Blackout94]

You know where you live don't you?

The UK has accepted it's place as being an inferior country with a weaker economy, or at least the people have. the leaders still think were a major world player, for some reason.

[paper halo]

The UK has accepted it's place as being an inferior country with a weaker economy, or at least the people have. the leaders still think were a major world player, for some reason.

You haven't met enough conservatives/royalists/nationalists. Or I've met too many.

[The_Blackout94]

You haven't met enough conservatives/royalists/nationalists. Or I've met too many.

Ahh. That's it. I live in a super safe Labour seat and most people I know are against a monarch at all. I'm not, a good tourist attraction. I just think it's more that the north is almost a complete different political nation. Don't get much political debate round these parts.

[Nuns On A Bus]

"Well, we're in Libya because of oil. And I think both Japan and the nuclear technology and Libya and this dependence that we have upon imported oil have both once again highlighted the need for the United States to have a renewable energy agenda going forward," Rep. Ed Markey (D-MA) said on MSNBC.

[loveisdead]

Dennis Kucinich believes Obama's action towards Libya is an impeachable offense (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/dennis-kucinich-calls-says-libya-attack-an-impeachable-offense-for-obama.php).

[*crying stars*]

Dennis Kucinich believes Obama's action towards Libya is an impeachable offense (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/dennis-kucinich-calls-says-libya-attack-an-impeachable-offense-for-obama.php).

He got the idea from Ralph Nadar.

[GuitarR0cker1]

Dennis Kucinich believes Obama's action towards Libya is an impeachable offense (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/dennis-kucinich-calls-says-libya-attack-an-impeachable-offense-for-obama.php).
War Powers Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution)

[GuitarR0cker1]

Ahaha. Did I say Libya didn't need or want the help? Exactly. The UN has agreed that Libya needed help and it is coalition forces, not just the US. The US, however needs to stop getting involved on their own in things that don't concern them. They took the Ruhr line on Libya, and took the right line on Egypt. However, they cannot go getting involved in other things. Pushing for democracy us one thing, having a constant military presence in a country is another. Why have bases in random countries that obviously don't want them? That's what I'm talking about. And the US needs to stop pretending it's so superior to every other country. It will only end badly. They are making too many enemies around the world, an with more countries having governments that, combined, could rise up, the US needs to shut their shit. It's not just my opinion either, I'm pretty sure it's the opinion of most of the globe.
I'd argue that South Korea, Japan and Taiwan want our military bases there, I'm not so sure about the bases in Europe. It doesn't mean I support their existence or the fact that there's going to be long term troop presence in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm opposed (and was opposed) to both wars. What's happening in Libya is a completely different situation. It can never be repeated too much: what's happening in Libya has no similarities to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq or 2001 Invasion of Afghanistan.

I'm pretty sure nearly everyone on AP agrees with you there. Vitriolic nationalism just doesn't exist here. You're preaching to the choir.

[The_Blackout94]

I'd argue that South Korea, Japan and Taiwan want our military bases there, I'm not so sure about the bases in Europe. It doesn't mean I support their existence or the fact that there's going to be long term troop presence in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm opposed (and was opposed) to both wars. What's happening in Libya is a completely different situation. It can never be repeated too much: what's happening in Libya has no similarities to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq or 2001 Invasion of Afghanistan.

I'm pretty sure nearly everyone on AP agrees with you there. Vitriolic nationalism just doesn't exist here. You're preaching to the choir.

Wait, wait, wait. I'm not opposed to Libya. I've been saying we need to do something about it for weeks. I wasn't opposed to them doing absolutely anything, apart from using ground forces. But i think I agree with everything you've put there.

[Nuns On A Bus]

Glad to see that while lots of other countries aren't sure that they support the intervention in Libya, at least Al Qaeda (http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=212003) supports the rebels!

[SubStylee]

When you face a monster, do you think it's ok to kill it?
I do, so I support anyone who's trying to end his dictatorship.

[open mind]

When you face a monster, do you think it's ok to kill it?
I do, so I support anyone who's trying to end his dictatorship.

what about all the "monster" dictators and monarchs we support?

http://theweek.com/article/index/211722/5-dictators-the-us-still-supports

[crackedthesky]

When you face a monster, do you think it's ok to kill it?
I do, so I support anyone who's trying to end his dictatorship.

What the hell?
I feel like this analogy works best for those of us who either live in RPGs or in Stephen King novels...

[SubStylee]

What the hell?
I feel like this analogy works best for those of us who either live in RPGs or in Stephen King novels...

Wow, that's a typical absolutepunk.net reply.
Nothing new.

[SubStylee]

what about all the "monster" dictators and monarchs we support?

http://theweek.com/article/index/211722/5-dictators-the-us-still-supports

They should be torchered too.

[open mind]

They should be torchered too.

torture (if that's what you're talking about) is wrong.
i doubt if you'll find a whole lot of government support for the overthrow of the saudi government.

[SubStylee]

torture (if that's what you're talking about) is wrong.

lol I know, it's just that these people piss you off 24/7 and you can't do a thing about it.

[open mind]

lol I know, it's just that these people piss you off 24/7 and you can't do a thing about it.

huh?
getting the feeling that you're just trolling now.

[SubStylee]

huh?
getting the feeling that you're just trolling now.

You're getting the wrong feeling ;)

[crackedthesky]

Wow, that's a typical absolutepunk.net reply.
Nothing new.

Hate to break it to you, but... you're an absolutepunk.net member, too :shrug:

[SubStylee]

Hate to break it to you, but... you're an absolutepunk.net member, too :shrug:

Seriously?

[crackedthesky]

Seriously?

Yeah, dude, just check the address in your browser, it'll blow your mind

[SubStylee]

Yeah, dude, just check the address in your browser, it'll blow your mind

:O
Thanks for the discovery.

[mattyrocks]

im a little surprised at this... (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/24/us-libya-usa-poll-idUSTRE72N1JN20110324)

[open mind]

im a little surprised at this... (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/24/us-libya-usa-poll-idUSTRE72N1JN20110324)

why? the american public always gets behind a good war as long as we don't have a high number of casualties.

[mattyrocks]

why? the american public always gets behind a good war as long as we don't have a high number of casualties.


most people i know are against it.

and i just thought there was growing consensus that it was a bad move.

[open mind]

most people i know are against it.

and i just thought there was growing consensus that it was a bad move.

i'm sure there will be a backlash because of the costs, but as long as our involvement doesn't turn into a long and drawn out war it'll be all but forgotten by next year.

[mattyrocks]

i'm sure there will be a backlash because of the costs, but as long as our involvement doesn't turn into a long and drawn out war it'll be all but forgotten by next year.

lets just hope it doesnt become long and drawn out...

[loveisdead]

I'm under the impression this will be a pretty quick ordeal.

[thepianominstre]

I'm under the impression this will be a pretty quick ordeal.

I sure hope so. It's already been several days since this was supposed to take "days."

Bizarre that Obama's "coalition" speech came eight years to the day after Bush's Iraq coalition speech. And I can't help but think of our spotless history in arming random rebels who come back to kill us years later... Or all the other humanitarian crises that we're *not* intervening in. The whole thing seems bizarre and arbitrary and it may end up being Obama's downfall if it don't end quick. As if the Nobel Peace Prize wasn't a joke already...

[thepianominstre]

most people i know are against it.

and i just thought there was growing consensus that it was a bad move.

Same here. Surprised by that 60% poll. There are several reasons why I think this is a horrible move (previous post) but as has already been said if it's over quickly it will all be forgotten in a year. It's all gonna come down to how long this drags on. Gadafi's already lasted longer than some expected and I'm most concerned about the ensuing power vacuum (cough Iraq cough) but I'm plenty naive and I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Just not that optimistic.

[FNF]

Gaddafi needs to be overthrown. That much is a fact. Then someone needs to step in to make sure the new Libyan government turns out better. I don't think America is in the position to do this though, but perhaps France or Nato or the UN could do it.

[TheWonderYears]

ae-p5822Yew&feature=relmfu

[open mind]

if we're backing a group of rebels that doesn't have a large number of troops (i've seen reports that they have less then 2,000 fighters) are we fighting against democracy?

[bNz719]

Gaddafi needs to be overthrown. That much is a fact. Then someone needs to step in to make sure the new Libyan government turns out better. I don't think America is in the position to do this though, but perhaps France or Nato or the UN could do it.

Or the Libyan people. In order for the next government to be viewed as legitimate, it must be chosen by, and only by, the Libyan people.
To do otherwise would put the country in the exact situation that Iraq has/had found itself.

[FNF]

Or the Libyan people. In order for the next government to be viewed as legitimate, it must be chosen by, and only by, the Libyan people.
To do otherwise would put the country in the exact situation that Iraq has/had found itself.
I agree. An election has to be completely up to the libyan people, but we cant let just another dictator take power, if you ask me someones gotta make sure the election is fair and the leader is going to truly be a democratic one.

[bNz719]

I agree. An election has to be completely up to the libyan people, but we cant let just another dictator take power, if you ask me someones gotta make sure the election is fair and the leader is going to truly be a democratic one.

Agreed with all of that, but I don't think that "someone" should be any type of foreign entity. It should be the Libyan people that regulate and oversee their election and ensure that their future leader truly represents and acts upon the needs of the people. What some people don't seem to understand is that the Libyan people, along with the rest of the world, are like us. Sure, their country has its fair share of extremists, just as our country does. It isn't the majority, however. Not even close. If and when Gadhafi is out of power, all responsibility as to the future of Libya is up to its people (unlike what we did in Iraq).


if we're backing a group of rebels that doesn't have a large number of troops (i've seen reports that they have less then 2,000 fighters) are we fighting against democracy?

Source?

[anamericangod]

if we're backing a group of rebels that doesn't have a large number of troops (i've seen reports that they have less then 2,000 fighters) are we fighting against democracy?

What?

[Scrandon]

Source?
About the number of rebel troops?
They mentioned that number a couple of times on CNN.

[open mind]

What?

a "army" of around a 1,000 libyans currently makes up the rebel force.

if we're backing them over the millions of other libyans isn't that kinda anti-democratic?

[The_Blackout94]

a "army" of around a 1,000 libyans currently makes up the rebel force.

if we're backing them over the millions of other libyans isn't that kinda anti-democratic?

It's not anti democratic, since the Libyan government isn't democratic in the first place. It's more anti popular choice. Which it isn't that either.

[jawstheme]

It's not anti democratic, since the Libyan government isn't democratic in the first place. It's more anti popular choice. Which it isn't that either.

Democracy hinges on rule of the majority, so it is anti democratic in a way.

[open mind]

Democracy hinges on rule of the majority, so it is anti democratic in a way.

you get it.:-)

[The_Blackout94]

Democracy hinges on rule of the majority, so it is anti democratic in a way.

Hmm I agree with what your saying. But what I mean is that with all the conflicting reports coming from the country, how can we be sure who the majority supports? And whether Gaddaffi isn't just promising the citizens things, like releasing family etc., to be publicly supportive of him? I don't know.

[Scrandon]

Yea, I would think that those who aren't rebelling aren't necessarily doing so in support of the current dictatorship.

[open mind]

Yea, I would think that those who aren't rebelling aren't necessarily doing so in support of the current dictatorship.

it's hard to tell at this point.

i tried to find some (or at least one) poll on who the majority of the libyan public supports, but all i could find is polls on what americans think about our intervention.

if anyone finds one, please post it.

[jawstheme]

Yea, I would think that those who aren't rebelling aren't necessarily doing so in support of the current dictatorship.

Even if the majority wants him out, that doesn't mean they want a violent revolution, and US military involvement. False dichotomy.

[The_Blackout94]

it's hard to tell at this point.

i tried to find some (or at least one) poll on who the majority of the libyan public supports, but all i could find is polls on what americans think about our intervention.

if anyone finds one, please post it.

Theres no way in hell that a poll like that exists. I mean, the Libyan government would be too wary of the results. Yes, they let foreign journalists in to report on the situation, but let an independent polling organization in to possibly condemn their government? I don't know. I think it's too hard to tell at this point. I mean the cities are already divided up. Ask people in Tripoli? They'll say gaddaffi. Ask them in Benghazi? They'll say the rebels. The results would be too biased anyway. Surely?

[open mind]

Theres no way in hell that a poll like that exists. I mean, the Libyan government would be too wary of the results. Yes, they let foreign journalists in to report on the situation, but let an independent polling organization in to possibly condemn their government? I don't know. I think it's too hard to tell at this point. I mean the cities are already divided up. Ask people in Tripoli? They'll say gaddaffi. Ask them in Benghazi? They'll say the rebels. The results would be too biased anyway. Surely?

well if polling is out that leaves the number of rebels as the main indicator doesn't it?

there were a lot more protestors, but as jawstheme pointed out, that doesn't mean that they wanted or support civil war.

[The_Blackout94]

well if polling is out that leaves the number of rebels as the main indicator doesn't it?

there were a lot more protestors, but as jawstheme pointed out, that doesn't mean that they wanted or support civil war.

Oh yeah, I'm not debating that. I completely agree. However, when the US pilots went down in the plane, they were hailed as heroes and cheered upon arrival. Not saying anything is right or wrong, just putting it out there.

[anamericangod]

well if polling is out that leaves the number of rebels as the main indicator doesn't it?

there were a lot more protestors, but as jawstheme pointed out, that doesn't mean that they wanted or support civil war.

I'm not sure anyone wants civil war.

[GuitarR0cker1]

Yeah I'm sure most Libyans support the dictator that gunned down their friends and relatives in their streets because they were peacefully protesting...

I'm growing more uneasy about the intervention in Libya but hindsight is 20/20.

[open mind]

I'm not sure anyone wants civil war.

since we're probably going to be arming and training the rebel "army" we seem to want civil war.

[anamericangod]

since we're probably going to be arming and training the rebel "army" we seem to want civil war.

We are?

[The_Blackout94]

since we're probably going to be arming and training the rebel "army" we seem to want civil war.

We want to, but it's not allowed under the UN thing. There is an arms embargo on Libya, and that means for both sides.

[open mind]

We are?

al jazeera has reported we are.

i said we're probably going to be. i know obama has already ok'd cia contact with the rebels.

We want to, but it's not allowed under the UN thing. There is an arms embargo on Libya, and that means for both sides.

......as if we haven't ignored the u.n. when convenient in the past.

[The_Blackout94]

al jazeera has reported we are.

i said we're probably going to be. i know obama has already ok'd cia contact with the rebels.



......as if we haven't ignored the u.n. when convenient in the past.

It's true, but I don't think Obama has enough conviction in him to actually do it. Probably going to make myself unpopular here, but he really is quite weak when it comes down to it.

And tbh, we've been selling arms to Libya for years, which the Libyans are now using against their own people. So really, it's our fault this is happening. Aha.

[open mind]

It's true, but I don't think Obama has enough conviction in him to actually do it. Probably going to make myself unpopular here, but he really is quite weak when it comes down to it.

And tbh, we've been selling arms to Libya for years, which the Libyans are now using against their own people. So really, it's our fault this is happening. Aha.

you lost me. what is true? obama isn't really all that popular here.

i know we've been arming a lot of countries throughout the years, but i haven't heard that libya is one of them.

[anamericangod]

al jazeera has reported we are.

i said we're probably going to be. i know obama has already ok'd cia contact with the rebels.



......as if we haven't ignored the u.n. when convenient in the past.

I'm okay with the CIA working with the rebels. I'm not entirely supportive of supply the rebels with significant arms without a transition government in place.

[The_Blackout94]

you lost me. what is true? obama isn't really all that popular here.

i know we've been arming a lot of countries throughout the years, but i haven't heard that libya is one of them.

Like that the US has gone against te UN before, that is true. Sorry didn't make it clear. And really? I thought he wa still like a god to you guys aha.

I mean the UK. Over the last few years we've been exporting arms to Libya, Bahrain and Egypt, all of which have used those arms to kill their own citizens.

[open mind]

Like that the US has gone against te UN before, that is true. Sorry didn't make it clear. And really? I thought he wa still like a god to you guys aha.

I mean the UK. Over the last few years we've been exporting arms to Libya, Bahrain and Egypt, all of which have used those arms to kill their own citizens.

the right hates him, the left is moderately to severely disappointed in him, and the middle is mostly just a bunch of uninformed dipshits that can't make up their mind about anything.

yeah, that's my bad for failing to note your location.

[The_Blackout94]

the right hates him, the left is moderately to severely disappointed in him, and the middle is mostly just a bunch of uninformed dipshits that can't make up their mind about anything.

yeah, that's my bad for failing to note your location.


I knew the right hated him, but I though the moderates and most of the left loved him still. Hmm. I do like him, but I feel he's just kinda weak and indecisive especially in international issues such as the ones that have come up recently.

[Scrandon]

the right hates him, the left is moderately to severely disappointed in him, and the middle is mostly just a bunch of uninformed dipshits that can't make up their mind about anything.

yeah, that's my bad for failing to note your location.
“Actually, a recent poll showed President's support as higher among liberal Democrats than moderate Democrats... don't have the link but the poll was reported on one of the MSNBC shows last night .
Over 80% of liberal Dems support him; 70%+ moderate Dems.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/OneLiberalLady/jon-stewart-mocks-obama-2012-campaign-video_n_844868_83247440.html

Kind of a garbage source, but I saw it on MSNBC too.

[open mind]

“Actually, a recent poll showed President's support as higher among liberal Democrats than moderate Democrats... don't have the link but the poll was reported on one of the MSNBC shows last night .
Over 80% of liberal Dems support him; 70%+ moderate Dems.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/OneLiberalLady/jon-stewart-mocks-obama-2012-campaign-video_n_844868_83247440.html

Kind of a garbage source, but I saw it on MSNBC too.

support is different then liking, or being enthusiastic about his leadership.

i support obama over his current opposition, but i think he's soft.

[jawstheme]

Sometimes I think NATO just likes to bomb things:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/09/world/africa/09libya.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2

"This would be the second time in less than a week that NATO warplanes struck a rebel target. On Saturday, Western warplanes killed 13 rebels in the same region of eastern Libya, where the rebels have been fighting a seesaw battle for weeks with the better equipped and trained forces of Colonel Qaddafi. "

Inexcusable. Have some communication with the side you're trying to help. At least make it look like you care about the people and not the agenda.

[SmoothKing]

Gadhafi , will face his people shit and will totaly executed and the people will be killed , just like warzone

[caveBEAR]

Gadhafi , will face his people shit and will totaly executed and the people will be killed , just like warzone

Quoted for truth.

[CheckeredFloors]

totaly.

[chaostheory5]

it's going on for so long :(

[The_Blackout94]

it's going on for so long :(

It's going to be going on for a lot longer. Better prepare yourself. This is just going to be a bomb shit up and assassinate him thing, it's a bomb shit up and wait for the rebels to make the necessary advances. Could take weeks more. Maybe even months.

[chaostheory5]

It's going to be going on for a lot longer. Better prepare yourself. This is just going to be a bomb shit up and assassinate him thing, it's a bomb shit up and wait for the rebels to make the necessary advances. Could take weeks more. Maybe even months.

Might not even come to an end :/

[The_Blackout94]

Might not even come to an end :/

Well, no. It's going to come to an end. Gaddaffi can't stay in power. Even if he beats the rebels back, he will lose power. I imagine some European states will find a reason to send in ground troops and finish it, or even just the UK dispatch a small SAS squad and get it done quickly. My guess is there will be a result from the current conflict by about June/July, and then the Allies will move from there.

[Gagagareen]

NATO again put fight... I personally do not see the need

[JamesBond]

this is the saddest war in recent years. This guy has done nothing wrong to his people, all he is doing is wanting more for his people. Europe got caught a few times with lying about what he has done-Incubator story. Are people still so depraved that they will kill innocent people just for oil and money?...well yeah. But it's unfortunate, this guy is good and the EU/UN/NATO and the West is trying to say he's a new Hitler. Fuck that shit.

Khadafi orders mass raping! (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iDLbC17PLbfZIhQo1y4gA-diS_0Q?docId=CNG.bc5038d72752104d21 5a218741da85d3.3e1)

[caveBEAR]

:popcorn:

[joeag1985]

Alex Crawford has balls.

[Ferrari333SP]

this is the saddest war in recent years. This guy has done nothing wrong to his people, all he is doing is wanting more for his people.


I beg to differ; Gaddafi is a dictator with no care for his people. I've been following this conflict from day one, getting news reports from several sources, and I hope Gaddafi is caught and sent to the International Criminal Court to serve his arrest warrant that was issued. Tripoli has basically been cut off from all sides, so now it's just a matter of time. I'm giving it 2-3 more weeks until Gaddafi is out of power in some capacity.

[Nuns On A Bus]

I'd be shocked if he still isn't in power a month from now.

Edit: Never mind, I wasn't aware of how much progress the rebels had made since last I'd heard they were still getting their asses kicked. Good for them.

[Ferrari333SP]

So if any of you have heard in the last few hours, two of Gaddafi's sons, Saif and Muhommed, have been captured in Tripoli, and within the next few days Tripoli is likely to be completely taken.


Al-Jazeera English live stream: http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

[sweepthenation]

What're you guys talking about? A month? Tripoli's gonna fall tonight

[knash9]

I hate to get my hopes up but it's about damn time he goes.

[Ferrari333SP]

CNN has great coverage right now, of reporters in the Rixos hotel in Tripoli (where they've get journalists), waiting for the rebels to come into the hotel. The government minders have left, so now they're just waiting for rebels to come. Gunmen are still outside the hotel, but it's any time now before it's taken by the opposition.

[Love As Arson]

No tears for Qadhafi; no cheers for NATO posted by lenin

Qadhafi is finished, as I rashly predicted he would be. It looks like his personal bodyguards have surrendered, and rebels are marching through the centre of Tripoli. Moussa Ibrahim, performing this tragicomical Ali role, reportedly claims that the masses are on their way to Tripoli to protect the regime. Since he doesn't really believe this, no one else has to either. I have no doubt that there will be riotous celebrations in Benghazi, Tripoli, Zawiya and elsewhere tonight. The decomposition of the regime, just months after it seemed to have retaken control, will be what people are cheering for. And only a churl or a regime loyalist would begrudge it.

But mark the sequel. The rebel army is commanded by someone who is most likely a CIA agent. As far as I know, it has around 1,000 trained soldiers, within a total force of about 30-40,000 people (and within a population of 6.5m people). It is directed on the ground by intelligence and special forces. It isn't well armed, and it will probably now be either rapidly disarmed, or integrated into the post-Qadhafi state. There may be a small number of jihadis among them, but these will either adapt, integrate, or be hunted down and killed on the basis of the new Libya's remit of fighting 'Al Qaeda'. (Recall, preventing an 'Al Qaeda' takeover was one of the major justifications for intervention when the think-tanks started thinking tanks). There is as yet no political force through which the masses could act independently of the new government, were they even of a mind to do so. The rebels will be disarmed, and the initiative will rest with pro-US politicians and other ruling class spokespeople.

As a result, I would strongly caution against getting carried away with the prospect of permanent revolution here. I think the US and its allies will very quickly stabilise this situation. There will be no analogue to 'de-Baathification'. The old state structures will be preserved and adapted, and the new government will enjoy considerable legitimacy provided it delivers on a basic menu of elections and political rights. Moreover, the parties that win those elections will likely be the more pro-capitalist elements allied to the ruling class factions in the leadership of the transitional council. The government that now follows will be less oppressive and more democratic than the one it ousted, and it will probably be less sectional than the Qadhafi regime.

It would be hard for the coming government to do worse than Qadhafi. In one respect, however, they may do just that. EU powers will certainly demand that the new regime hold to their promise to continue Qadhafi's policy of containing immigration from Africa to the EU. Given the way that some elements in this rebellion have treated black and migrant workers - you know, lynchings and that - the EU can probably have full confidence in the new regime's handling of this remit. It always made sense, of course, for the bourgeois elements of the rebellion to scapegoat black workers as the 'alien' elements, the fifth column depended on by Qadhafi. In government, the temptation to resort to racist hysteria in order to frustrate and divide potential opposition will be magnified many times over.

So, I'm just saying, I don't think we're witnessing a revolutionary process here. I think that's been halted a long time ago. And it will take time and organisation before it resumes, if it does.

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/08/no-tears-for-qadhafi-no-cheers-for-nato.html

[Ferrari333SP]

A reporter for Sky News riding into Tripoli with the opposition:

fhc4-6gk9V8&feature=youtu.be

[soz]

What're you guys talking about? A month? Tripoli's gonna fall tonight

If not tonight, tomorrow morning our time. Can't see the Libyan government holding on for another 24 hours.

They have no resources, no leadership, and troops defecting left and right. For months the rebels and NATO slowly chipped away and now it's the breaking point.

[knash9]

Are we going to see Gadaffi try to put up a last stand or blow up oil fields?

[Nuns On A Bus]

Glad to see his rule is finally ending, one less tyrant for the world to have to worry about.

[Ferrari333SP]

Well practically all of the oil fields/refineries have been captured by the opposition already, so the blowing up of oil fields, like what happened in Iraq back in 1991, won't happen. Authorities aren't even sure Gaddafi is still in Tripoli anymore, so whether he can put up a last, formidable, stand of some kind isn't all that likely. Most civilians probably supported the opposition secretly anyway, so were just waiting for the opposition to reach the capital, and from initial reports/videos in the last day, it seems that is the case.

[Nuns On A Bus]

Draft constitution for the new state (http://www.scribd.com/doc/62823350/Libya-Draft-Constitutional-Charter-for-the-Transitional-Stage)

[GuitarR0cker1]

Draft constitution for the new state (http://www.scribd.com/doc/62823350/Libya-Draft-Constitutional-Charter-for-the-Transitional-Stage)
Article 1 makes me feel very skeptical about the rest of the constitution but that's probably just my ultra-secular Western bias.

[Simulcast]

Oh, a Sharia Islamic state. That reeks of democracy.

[Love As Arson]

Draft constitution for the new state (http://www.scribd.com/doc/62823350/Libya-Draft-Constitutional-Charter-for-the-Transitional-Stage)

Are you sure that is authentic? I cannot find this anywhere else.

[Nuns On A Bus]

Are you sure that is authentic? I cannot find this anywhere else.

Nah I'm not positive, I just saw a link to it so I thought I'd post it here. It wouldn't really surprise me if it wasn't real.

[knash9]

Read somewhere that one of gaddaffi's sons that the rebels claimed they captured was seen after they said that.

[knash9]

He was released I guess?

[UpperNinety]

http://www.france24.com/en/20110823-libya-saif-al-islam-gaddafi-appears-tripoli-hotel-arrest-rumours

[Ferrari333SP]

This is such a fluid situation at the moment. The ICC even said they confirmed that Saif was in custody, but apparently not anymore. Gaddafi's compound appears to be pretty well defended, but I feel over the next few days opposition fighters will begin pouring in from all directions, and pro-Gaddafi fighters will simply be snuffed out. The next week will be very interesting.

[bNz719]

I wonder whether Saif escaped and put on a brave face in order to rally pro-Gadhafi forces and instill fear into the rebels (at least, the ones who joined because they are on the verge of victory) or whether the rebels advancement isn't as profound as it has been made today. Not sure what to think of the situation at the moment, but it'll become clear in the next 24-72 hours most likely.

[Ferrari333SP]

Top 10 Myths about the Conflict in Libya: http://www.arabianbusiness.com/top-ten-myths-about-libya-war-416983.html?page=0

[Ferrari333SP]

Extraordinary video coming out of Tripoli at the moment, on Al-Jazeera English, of the opposition now within Gaddafi's compound: http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

Also, recent articles from Foreignpolicy.com

Imagining Libya a Decade From Now: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/08/22/imagining_libya_a_decade_from_now

Triumph in Tripoli (Pictures): http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/08/21/triumph_in_tripoli


Conclusions and Implications of the fall of Gaddafi: http://rothkopf.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/08/22/this_is_not_the_endgame_in_libya_co nclusions_and_implications_of_the_f all_of_qaddaf


Libya Inspires the Arabs: http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/08/22/libya_inspires_the_arabs


Winners and Losers from Libya this week: http://drezner.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/08/22/winners_and_losers_from_libya_this_ week


Was Libya Worth it?: http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/08/22/was_libya_worth_it

[Nuns On A Bus]

Top 10 Myths about the Conflict in Libya: http://www.arabianbusiness.com/top-ten-myths-about-libya-war-416983.html?page=0

Quality article, thanks for posting this.

[Ferrari333SP]

A Libyan wearing Gaddafi's hat and gold necklace, from his bedroom:

YhoGNlWsObg

[soz]

With all this happening, good to know Obama is hitting the links for the 500th time this year.

I think he deserves a vacation, but fuck, get your priorities in order.

[caveBEAR]

With all this happening, good to know Obama is hitting the links for the 500th time this year.

I think he deserves a vacation, but fuck, get your priorities in order.

What should he be doing?

[paper halo]

What should he be doing?

LEADING.

[Mitch]

He should be right there on the streets of Libya, obviously.

[caveBEAR]

He should be right there on the streets of Libya, obviously.

Right? Now some god damn Libyan has Gaddafi's hat, necklace & staff. Obama should have snagged that for us...

[soz]

What should he be doing?

Anything but a vacation. Maybe talking with world leaders as to how they'll handle the transition when the NTC takes over?

In a time like this, when a country could be overthrown any day now...and our President is hitting around a golf ball...it's just ridiculous and indefensible.

Do you see other world leaders taking off right now? Did Cameron, after all the UK riots and hacking scandals, decide to take a vacation because he needed a break?

With all that's going on, you have to realize that things can reach a certain point where you need to end your leisure time and get back to work, as much as you don't want to. For Obama it looks like golf is more important right now.

[paper halo]

Anything but a vacation. Maybe talking with world leaders as to how they'll handle the transition when the NTC takes over?

In a time like this, when a country could be overthrown any day now...and our President is hitting around a golf ball...it's just ridiculous and indefensible.

Do you see other world leaders taking off? Did Cameron, after all the UK riots and hacking scandals, decide to take a vacation because he needed a break?

He was on holiday when the riots started. Then he came back and made a speech. It solved all our problems.

[soz]

He was on holiday when the riots started. Then he came back and made a speech. It solved all our problems.

But at least he came back and made an effort. Before the speech it wasn't a given that his words would have no effect.

[caveBEAR]

Anything but a vacation. Maybe talking with world leaders as to how they'll handle the transition when the NTC takes over?

In a time like this, when a country could be overthrown any day now...and our President is hitting around a golf ball...it's just ridiculous and indefensible.

Do you see other world leaders taking off right now? Did Cameron, after all the UK riots and hacking scandals, decide to take a vacation because he needed a break?

With all that's going on, you have to realize that things can reach a certain point where you need to end your leisure time and get back to work, as much as you don't want to. For Obama it looks like golf is more important right now.

You don't think that Obama's administration (and the countless people who work under them) already have this covered? You think they woke up one morning, read HuffingtonPost, said 'oh, shit! Libya's going nuts!', and started work on it then? You honestly believe that there's something Obama needs to be doing right now (or right that moment) that he can't do from his smartphone?

You have no idea what you're talking about, but enjoy the outrage over the 'indefensible' golf game.
:rolleyes:

[paper halo]

But at least he came back and made an effort. Before the speech it wasn't a given that his words would have no effect.

It really was. It was a situation completely outside of his control and influence.

[soz]

You don't think that Obama's administration (and the countless people who work under them) already have this covered? You think they woke up one morning, read HuffingtonPost, said 'oh, shit! Libya's going nuts!', and started work on it then? You honestly believe that there's something Obama needs to be doing right now (or right that moment) that he can't do from his smartphone?

You have no idea what you're talking about, but enjoy the outrage over the 'indefensible' golf game.
:rolleyes:
Haha. Look at you, diehard Obama fan, trying to defend your idol.

There's pretty much no way you can believe that golfing is better for him now than making public appearances on Libya.

[caveBEAR]

Haha. Look at you, diehard Obama fan, trying to defend your idol.

There's pretty much no way you can believe that golfing is better for him now than making public appearances on Libya.

Are you serious? I think Obama's done a piss-poor job. I'm not fan. I think he's miles above the trash that are being paraded around in the cornfield states as 'Presidential Nominees', but that doesn't mean I'm satisfied with him.

I'm going to bold this for you, just to let it sink in;
Obama doesn't need to say shit about Libya. It's not his country. Everything that needs to be accounted for towards Libya (whether Gaddafi remains in power or not) has been sorted out previously. The situation in Libya will continue - shockingly - with or without comment from Obama.

[jwicklun]

The situation didn't need an extreme amount of US involvement. This is they're own victory and lets leave it at that.

[bNz719]

I'm going to bold this for you, just to let it sink in;
Obama doesn't need to say shit about Libya. It's not his country. Everything that needs to be accounted for towards Libya (whether Gaddafi remains in power or not) has been sorted out previously. The situation in Libya will continue - shockingly - with or without comment from Obama.

:appl:

[knash9]

The situation didn't need an extreme amount of US involvement. This is they're own victory and lets leave it at that.

This

[Ferrari333SP]

Are you serious? I think Obama's done a piss-poor job. I'm not fan. I think he's miles above the trash that are being paraded around in the cornfield states as 'Presidential Nominees', but that doesn't mean I'm satisfied with him.

I'm going to bold this for you, just to let it sink in;
Obama doesn't need to say shit about Libya. It's not his country. Everything that needs to be accounted for towards Libya (whether Gaddafi remains in power or not) has been sorted out previously. The situation in Libya will continue - shockingly - with or without comment from Obama.


THIS.

I've been following the situation in Libya from Day 1, back when protests really started in March, and Obama has done everything he can to assist the opposition. NATO stepped up to the plate and actually took care of something for once, instead of the USA being relied on to do everything. Obama has made the required speeches, and got the UN resolutions passed. He rightly used Hillary Clinton, Secretary of State, to meet with other world leaders to communicate the US position, and overall a broad coalition has been amassed to assist the opposition in providing medical supplies, communication technology, arms, etc. Obama has had many things on his plate recently, and with the NTC finally having it's forces get into Tripoli and essentially capture most of the city, I think it's perfectly acceptable for him to take a vacation with his family. The NTC is taking the necessary steps to get the country back on it's feet.


Obama as a great foreign-policy president in the making: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/23/president-obama-s-libya-triumph-a-great-foreign-policy-presidency.html

[Ferrari333SP]

SkyNews live stream: http://go.sky.com/vod/page/playLiveTv.do

Al-Jazeera English live stream: http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

BBC live stream: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14610722

[KingsCrossing]

Multiple news sources are reporting Gaddafi is either captured or dead though it cannot be independently confirmed so far:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15385955

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/20/libyan-fighters-say-they-have-captured-gadhafi/?iref=BN1&hpt=hp_t1

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/10/20111020111520869621.html

[Ferrari333SP]

Good riddance.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

http://webmedia.newseum.org/newseum-multimedia/dfp/jpg21/lg/NY_NYP.jpg

[trolland10]

RIP carlos Santana

[caveBEAR]

:lol:

[KingsCrossing]

I had a journalism professor once who told me the NY Post was by far the best newspaper in New York. It's front page spectacles like that which have convinced me he was absolutely correct.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltf4tcdmVV1qztjn5o1_500.png

[popdisaster00]

LC1dm2kGL6A

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Awful 80s sitcom starring Matthew Perry predicted Gaddafi would die in July of 2011. They were three months off.

pGKK2zwKTsM