Dear Athiests/Agnostics

[howdydoody]

No.. this is not another religious debate thread!! I promise.
I've personally often wondered about a possible connection between people who are currently athiest or agnostic and a past of religion in their upbringing. In a handful of people i know of that have issues with believing in a God and lean more toward science, I've heard many mention that they either grew up 'religios' or went to a 'religios' school and changed their minds along the way. So this thread is moreso for my own study, if you will. I would not like to see any debate on who's right or wrong, or what belief is absurd or not. Rather, I would like to ask a couple of questions to those willing to answer.

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic?
2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination?
c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about?

Thank you for your time and consideration :-)

[Smash Adams]

I am borderline agnostic- want to believe in god don't know if I can, I was brought up Jewish and was bar mitzvahed, nothing really brought about any change- my parents weren't very religious and I'm someone who doesn't like abstract things

[fedhed7]

It's spelled "religious".
"c" is not a number.
I don't believe in God or any religion, but I was raised Jewish and went to Hebrew School when I was younger.

I am borderline agnostic- want to believe in god don't know if I can, I was brought up Jewish and was bar mitzvahed, nothing really brought about any change- my parents weren't very religious and I'm someone who doesn't like abstract things

Same here. I like to think rationally and believing in God is irrational to me.

[Scott Irvine]

believing in a God and lean more toward science

I believe the two go hand in hand.

[thejetstolehome]

1) i don't know what to call it but i guess it leans towards Agnosticism.
2) i was raised Catholic. i was never that devout and i don't really practice anymore. i'm still "cuturally" Catholic, i guess, in that i still "celebrate" Christmas and Easter but i do so more for family reasons than religious reasons.
3) when i was 17, i realized that religion and faith weren't for me. i understand why some people turn to those things but neither is really for me.

[takingbackrufio]

I don't necessarily "believe in God", but I do believe a force existed, at a time, that defied current laws of science to put the wheels in motion for what is now our Universe. The best way I can put this: I believe that "something" was responsible for "starting it all" -- and then science took over from there.

By the current definition, then, I guess you could say that I'm not religious or put my faith in a deity.

[Scott Irvine]

I believe that "something" was responsible for "starting it all"

Most believe it was started by these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branes

and they've got pretty good scientific support on it.

[howdydoody]

It's spelled "religious".
"c" is not a number.
I don't believe in God or any religion, but I was raised Jewish and went to Hebrew School when I was younger.



Same here. I like to think rationally and believing in God is irrational to me.
i had a typo.. my mistake
i was goofing with the "c" in attempts to make it a lighthearted thread so you guys wouldn't take it that seriously ;)
thank you for your input regardless.

[takingbackrufio]

Most believe it was started by these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branes

and they've got pretty good scientific support on it.
I'm not knowledgeable about that, nor does that very ugly article really teach me anything about them. However, I essentially think that "something came from nothing" (which violates the law of conservation of matter), which would imply that some sort of force existed back then that caused it.

I agree wholeheartedly with this perspective - I'm more of a "cosmologist" than an agnost, I think. I had no religious upbringing, other than going to Church with a friend's family multiple times throughout my childhood.

When I first started thinking about God in junior high I accepted atheism and was satisfied with that for some time, then I began to look deeper into things and try and find a personal meaning for my own benefit (and to satisfy my own curiosity) rather than adhere to an organized religion.
I agree. At one time I was fairly convinced that God doesn't, and has never existed, but that has changed since I desired to satisfy my own curiosity.

[charliewinn]

1. I can't say that i am athiest or agnostic because i still believe that their is some supreme being that controls my life.
2. I was born and raised a Buddhist in which i believed in reincarnation and the spirituality that all living beings are created equal, even animals, bugs or fishes. We never really had customs in which we practiced but me and my family did believe that karma existed.
3. I just started maturing and believing that only my actions control most of my life and that nothing can stop me from doing what i do. but i cannot rule out the fact that my life is still given to God.

i know this was only for athiests or agnostic but i decided to answer anyways.

[yourneck]

1. yes
2. my mother is Christian, but she rarely practices it and doesn't go to church anymore. My father was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, etc, but he turned Agnostic at a young age. His sister is actually a nun, haha, probably as a result as their Catholic upbringing
3. wellll I just thought a lot about religion and decided that I didn't agree with mine

[fenderkid212]

I am pretty much an Atheist. I went to Sunday School when I was young and that was about it. I have been to Church twice in my life.

[howdydoody]

Before this gets of on a hopefully steady foot.. a lot of responses to letter 'c' are.. 'well i thought about it and religion wasn't for me'.
i would like to know more detail if you don't mind :) There must be reason's why the idea of religion didn't agree with you. Similar to why the idea of not being religious did agree with you.

NOTE: I'm not trying to make anybody get on the defensive.. this is purely for my own knowledge.

[thejetstolehome]

Before this gets of on a hopefully steady foot.. a lot of responses to letter 'c' are.. 'well i thought about it and religion wasn't for me'.
i would like to know more detail if you don't mind :) There must be reason's why the idea of religion didn't agree with you. Similar to why the idea of not being religious did agree with you.

NOTE: I'm not trying to make anybody get on the defensive.. this is purely for my own knowledge.

for me, the answers i wanted out of life weren't in religion.

[tambam]

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic? I am an Agnostic.

2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination? Yes, I come from a Muslim family. However, I was never forced into it whatsoever. I was always encouraged to think for myself.

c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about? Well, as I grew up and was exposed to the rest of the world, I began to doubt a lot of what I heard growing up. I began to look at other religions, as well as how people of these other religions lived and what they believed. And then I began to wonder: If there are so many religions in the world, how do I know which is the right one? The more I examined these religions to find out what they stood for, I began to disagree. I big thing for me was how a lot of religious people treated homosexuals, for example. Also, the concept of 'hell' became a concern to me. I began to realize that religion is nothing but a man-made concept, and by the time I finished my philosophy course, I learned to be more skeptical of both religion and athiesm. I realized that we can never know what the truth really is, and I stand firm with that belief even now.

[leckomaniac]

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic?
I am an Athiest.

2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination?
I went to a Catholic grade school, high school, and currently attend a private Catholic University.

c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about?
For me, it was just a matter of following what made sense to me. I thought about it for a while and I realized that believing in a higher power did not seem logical to me. I couldn't reconcile it. It is as simple as that.

Thank you for your time and consideration :-)
You are welcome.

[thejetstolehome]

Because I am very confident that modern scientists with electricity, powerful technology, telescopes, complex mathematics etc.. know a lot more about the origins of our universe than a 2000 year old book.

to be fair, that's not the only thing the bible/religion are there for.

[lawofaverages]

I am an atheist. I was at first brought up catholic, but went into the church for my first communion, the place exploded. They dont allow me to enter churches anymore out of the fear of the apocalypse/the end of christianity. either one really. the pope hasnt decided yet.

[tambam]

I am an atheist. I was at first brought up catholic, but went into the church for my first communion, the place exploded. They dont allow me to enter churches anymore out of the fear of the apocalypse/the end of christianity. either one really. the pope hasnt decided yet.

I fucking hate how anal some catholics/christians are. It's such a turn-off.

[thejetstolehome]

I am an atheist. I was at first brought up catholic, but went into the church for my first communion, the place exploded. They dont allow me to enter churches anymore out of the fear of the apocalypse/the end of christianity. either one really. the pope hasnt decided yet.

lol, one Easter a few years ago, one of the last times i went to church regularlly/that wasn't for a funeral, i started bitching about the homily on the way back to the car and my mom said "okay. enough. you don't have to go to church anymore." oh happy day.

[thejetstolehome]

I know, but as you probably aware by now i am not a spiritual person, i never have been for some reason. I care about only one thing and that is the truth, which the i dont find in those pages.

right, right. just sayin'.

:beerbros:

[tambam]

I dislike the negative stereotype the threadstarter is protraying of us actually. We arent athiests/agnostics because of some childish rebellion against our parents or upbringing, we are that way because we use our brains.


Precisely.

[thejetstolehome]

I fucking hate how anal some catholics/christians are. It's such a turn-off.

you haven't been around a lot latey. :-/. wtf is that bullshit?

[tambam]

you haven't been around a lot latey. :-/. wtf is that bullshit?

Haha, I've been spending me some time in the General forum. Come to think of it, I haven't seen you around as much. :nono:

Let's not let this happen again. :-D

Haha, how've ya been?

[thejetstolehome]

Haha, I've been spending me some time in the General forum. Come to think of it, I haven't seen you around as much. :nono:

Let's not let this happen again. :-D

Haha, how've ya been?

haha, i guess i haven't been around that much but the Sports Forum is where i reside so that's why you don't see me.

eh, i've been alright, my grandmother died 2 weeks ago today which is obviously no good but otherwise okay. how about you?

[ESundy36]

1) Are you Atheist or Agnostic?
If I had to choose I'd say I lean towards Agnosticism.
2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination?
I've been raised as a Christian, went to Sunday school and was Confirmed. I went to one Catholic college and then transferred to another Catholic College but not at all for the religious aspect, it just so happens that both schools are Catholic.
3) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about?
A lot of things happened to me in a very short period of time that made me question everything. Since that time I have been searching for an answer but have yet to find one.

[cfear]

1) I am an atheist.
2) I was religious for about a four month period when I was in sixth grade b/c all my friends were. I quickly realized it was stupid.
3) I've never really believed in any deity, so nothing has really changed.

[lawofaverages]

I fucking hate how anal some catholics/christians are. It's such a turn-off.

I'd rather they not allow me into churches anymore, unless Satan comes up from the ground to tell me to wage war.

[Brianfarg]

1. Agnostic
2. Raised somewhat Catholic, never went to church on a regular basis
3. Like someone said previously, the answers in life I was looking for weren't in religion.

[combinement13]

1. I am an atheist
2. I was not raised religious, my dad is not religious at all and my mom stopped going to church around the time she married my dad
3. As for my beliefs changing for a while I read through all of the major religion, I read the bible, Koran and other religious documents like that and decided that religion was not for me.

[wev]

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic?
athiest is how i'd classify what i believe
2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination?
nope, my grandfather published a "free thought" 'zine until he died, my dad gave me a copy of "letters to the earth" when i was 12. my mom believes in something, but it's not going to church on sunday.
c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about? when i was 13 i wanted to fit in my small mississippi town. i tried to go to church, but i was disturbed by it being more of a social outlet than a place to learn about a spiritual/relig. path. so i quit going. when i was 20 i knew i needed to explore the world of faith, i went to lots of different kinds of churches and read everything i could get my hands on, from an introduction to Islam back to King J's book. I found Humanism, and decided enough of it clicked with me that I didn't need to keep trying to believe in everyone else's imaginary friend.

and i strongly disagree with the saying "there are no athiests in foxholes". i've had two incidents in the past 12 months that involved guns being pointed directly at me. i did think about praying, i thought about living and not breaking eye contact.

[Praetor]

Borderline Christian / agnostic.

[Iamhome]

I am determined not to go for any death bed conversion cop-out.

If, to be fair to you all, God did exist, I don't think a death bed conversion would work.

But that's one of the loosely defined parts of christianity.

[Ambulance X]

This might help people better show what their beliefs are...

Theist/Atheist scale from 1.00-7.00

1.00: Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, 'I do not believe, I know.'

2.00: Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto theist. 'I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there

3.00: Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. 'I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.'

4.00: Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. 'God's existence and non-existence are exactly equi-probable.'

5.00: Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. 'I don't know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical.'

6.00: Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'

7.00: Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung "knows" there is one.'
___________________________________ ___________________________________ __________

I personally was raised a Catholic but never really believed any of it. I went to Catholic school for 12 years and never really had a firm position on god. Now that I am out of that environment, I place myself at level 6.00 on the scale.

[Buried A Lie]

Atheist, went to Catholic school pre-school until 8th. About 7th grade I stopped being religious, I realized it was no different then any other cult.

[charliewinn]

Why do you believe in reincarnation?

Just the way i was raised. but i dont anymore.

[myplasticyou]

1. long time agnostic now bordering on atheist
2. presbyterian upbringing
3. i grew up and started thinking for myself

[lawofaverages]

On that scale I would be a 7.56

[dai the flu]

I dislike the negative stereotype the threadstarter is protraying of us actually. We arent athiests/agnostics because of some childish rebellion against our parents or upbringing, we are that way because we use our brains.
how about if you stop the stereotype that all religious people are uneducated sheep that can't think on their own. if you could just state your opinion without trying to throw in some subtle insult to believers with every post, i wouldn't be so completely disgusted by you.

[x togepi x]

how about if you stop the stereotype that all religious people are uneducated sheep that can't think on their own. if you could just state your opinion without trying to throw in some subtle insult to believers with every post, i wouldn't be so completely disgusted by you.

he didn't imply that you're a sheep. he just said his brain makes him agnostic/atheist...just like how your brain makes you whatever religion you are.

[dai the flu]

he didn't imply that you're a sheep. he just said his brain makes him agnostic/atheist...just like how your brain makes you whatever religion you are.
read it again slick. he says atheists don't believe in god because they use their brain. i don't know how you can misinterpret that, or any of his other posts as well.

[dai the flu]

why didnt i ever see this 'ignore' function before? this is amazing.

[gonz]

1) Agnostic
2) nope, parents mostly just spiritual and practice meditation, but no religious affiliation
3) like other people have said, just started thinking for myself and came to conclusions that made sense to me

[AP_Punk]

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic? Atheist.


2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination? I was brought up with the Christian religion, attended church regularly.


c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about? Around when I turned 16 I started to question my beliefs and religious teachings. It didn't make sense any more. I realized the flaws and denounced organized religion.

[Danny Schme]

Double Postttttt

[Danny Schme]

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic? Atheist.


2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination? I was brought up with the Christian religion, attended church regularly.


c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about? Around when I turned 16 I started to question my beliefs and religious teachings. It didn't make sense any more. I realized the flaws and denounced organized religion.

Same exact post but Agnostic and around age 15. Only reason I say Agnostic is for that very small percentage that this very... concocted story actually bares some truth.

[thejetstolehome]

why didnt i ever see this 'ignore' function before? this is amazing.

fuckin' best thing on AP, haha.

[FondestMemory]

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic?

atheist.

2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination?

i was raised going to a brethern church by a very religious mother. when i was 13, the pastor said something about all gay people going to hell, and this didn't make any sense to me. i questioned my mom how the pastor could say that without knowing every gay person in the world. she said i was clearly intelligent enough to make my own decision on the matter, so left it up to me whether or not i would continue going to church. i stopped going but remained a believer, thinking maybe it was just that church that was so judgemental. when i was about 18 i started going to different churches to see if they were all the same or see if i could find one i felt comfortable in. i couldn't, so i stopped going but still remained individually religious.

c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about?

i looked at the world that we live in. i saw all the horrible things happening to great people. i realized that if there is a god pulling the strings and allowing all this to happen, then he isn't somebody i'm willing to dedicate my life to. why live my life for him when he's taking innocents in horrible ways every day? so i just grew away. i still live with a strong moral code and do my best to be as good of a person as i can be. i don't need a figure to guide me to that.

that's my personal reasoning behind it.

[walking_person]

i would say i'm agnostic. i haven't been brought up in a religious family at all. we don't go to church, but celebrate christmas with our relatives. i go to public school. i like evolution and find religion interesting.

[tambam]

haha, i guess i haven't been around that much but the Sports Forum is where i reside so that's why you don't see me.

eh, i've been alright, my grandmother died 2 weeks ago today which is obviously no good but otherwise okay. how about you?

Yeah, that's probably why. Haha.

And I'm really sorry to hear about your grandmother. :-(

And I'm okay, trying to enjoy my spring break whilst working on projects. :)

[thejetstolehome]

Yeah, that's probably why. Haha.

And I'm really sorry to hear about your grandmother. :-(

And I'm okay, trying to enjoy my spring break whilst working on projects. :)

nice, i just got back to school from my spring break. did jack shit all week, haha. it was so relaxing.

[notoaststereo]

I am borderline agnostic- want to believe in god don't know if I can, I was brought up Jewish and was bar mitzvahed, nothing really brought about any change- my parents weren't very religious and I'm someone who doesn't like abstract things

that pretty much the same for me.

[TxRepresent]

a) i am agnostic
b) i was raised baptist but never went to church a day in my life
c) sophomore year in high school i started the debate with myself and this made the most sense.

[lawofaverages]

Hail Satan.

[howdydoody]

howdydoody wrote:
No.. this is not another religious debate thread!! I promise.
I've personally often wondered about a possible connection between people who are currently athiest or agnostic and a past of religion in their upbringing. In a handful of people i know of that have issues with believing in a God and lean more toward science, I've heard many mention that they either grew up 'religios' or went to a 'religios' school and changed their minds along the way. So this thread is moreso for my own study, if you will. I would not like to see any debate on who's right or wrong, or what belief is absurd or not. Rather, I would like to ask a couple of questions to those willing to answer.

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic?
2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination?
c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about?

Thank you for your time and consideration :-)


I dislike the negative stereotype the threadstarter is protraying of us actually. We arent athiests/agnostics because of some childish rebellion against our parents or upbringing, we are that way because we use our brains.


How was anything in the introductory post a negative sterotype?
I'm sorry if any of the above mentioned statement portrayed athiests/agnostics in a negative light. I was unaware any of my words did such. Like i said, i have been curious about how many that are athiest/agnostic were raised in a belief system as opposed to those who were not. I'm wondering of those who had a religious upbringing, what religion/denomination and what caused a turning point (i'm not implying a 'rebellion' as you mentioned.) I think you may be reading more into my words than what is actually there.

[Sleepaway]

1) I want to believe in god, I really do. But I just can't commit to it. I guess I'm agnostic? I need to read the bible again.

2) I'm baptised as a Roman Catholic, and raised that way my entire life. I didn't really believe in anything, as far as I can remember, until around 6 months ago.

3) I never really thought about it until I was around 12 or so, and then I thought the bible was a load of crap. However, recently I've started to think that maybe it is correct.

[and we whisper]

1. Agnostic. as of now anyway.
2. I have always attended church, since i was a baby. my mom tended to switch churches a lot, for whatever reason, we just did. when i was about 12 or so i just got sick of switching churches and i didn't like the one my mom was attending so i started attending a luthern church on my own. I also got confirmed at this church and continued to attend services there and helped to teach sunday school classes. So, to answer the question, I've always had a religious upbringing and it was all Luthern.
3. change in belief...hmmm. Well I really started to question it when I realized that a lot of the things that I believe in really contradicted the bible and were really looked down upon by the church, which I don't understand. Then, after researching a little bit, I began to question things more and more. Then one day I found out that a family member is agnostic, which made me look into that and that's pretty much how my change in belief came about. I still haven't talked to my mom about it, she still attends church and is an avid christian, so i'm a little shakey about that one but once i understand completely what i think and feel i hope i'll be able to tell her.

[cantnokdahustle]

1) Atheist

2) No, but I was "spiritual" until about the age of 11.

c) The Change occurred when I stopped being a selfish little cunt. The problem of Evil will get ya every time.

[PDon11]

1) A Deist/agnostic I guess

2) Raised Catholic, but my parents never beat it over my head.

3) Just watch cnn or read a newspaper. If there is a God, he either A) doesnt give a shit about us or B) is an asshole.

I'm going to hell:hitself:

[lawofaverages]

I'm going to hell:hitself:


its okay, ill put in a good word with the big guy downstairs for you

[cantnokdahustle]

its okay, ill put in a good word with the big guy downstairs for you

Who the hell would want to go to that "other place" anyhow?

[AnF1500]

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic? I used to consider myself an atheist, but my views are starting to change slightly. I do believe in spirituality, just not necessarily organized religon or anything so structured.
2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination? Not really, my father was brought up Catholic but my mother never involved herself in any religon. We didn't attend church or anything like that.
c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about?
When I was growing up, my dad had basically taught me the basics of Catholicism...and it just never made any sense to me. Plus, my mom had alot of gay friends and I never understood how my dad could say they were going to hell. How can anything that is love be a sin? So since a young age....I've decided to not partake in any religon.

[Smash Adams]

1) A Deist/agnostic I guess

2) Raised Catholic, but my parents never beat it over my head.

3) Just watch cnn or read a newspaper. If there is a God, he either A) doesnt give a shit about us or B) is an asshole.

I'm going to hell:hitself:

if it doesn't exist you can't go there- and based on your logic it doesn't

[PDon11]

if it doesn't exist you can't go there- and based on your logic it doesn't

IF being the key word. I personally think it doesn't exist. But if it does, IMO, it was created by and is run by God. The idea of a Satan is retarded.

[tambam]

The idea of an afterlife is retarded.

A creator maybe, but an afterlife is ridiculous.


In my opinion, it's the other way around. I believe in ghosts. I've seen them before. And so, to me, the idea of an afterlife is very possible. The fact that I've had ghostly encounters kind of keeps me from being an athiest. It's why I stick to agnosticism.

[senatorlamb]

I'm starting to think we need a separate or different forum for religion. The politics forum is becoming less and less about politics and more about God. Not trying to be mean or anyting, but I prefer political discussion to endless and unwinnable debates involving something you can't prove or disprove to begin with.

:spider:

[jsteil]

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic?

I was both for about 4 years each, It was like a transition from being Agnostic to becoming Athiest. Now Im 24 and have been practicing Deism / Free Thinking for the last 8 years.

2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination?

I was brought up with my mom practicing the Church of England and my father being a Presbyterian. I grew up going to my dads church though for the begining of my up bringing.

c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about?

Basically it went like thist I left my fathers faith (Christianity) to say, "Hey I think im going to figure this out myself", to "I dont take sides", to " I don't believe in god", to "Nature proves that god exists, but I don't think god is involved in my life decisions". For the most part it came down to saying, When I die I hope theres better than this, but science and what I know tells me that we live, we die, we become matter, and we become part of the earth. What we do before we die will be passed on (children, etc) and thats how we live on forever. No one can prove there is hell, heaven, but most humans hope that there is something better after death.


A question though to those who are christian. Lets say there is an afterlife, what is the purpose of it? Besides the you get to be with god, but other than that what does the bible say you are doing? I've never been able to find an answer to this.

[concernedparent]

I'm totally undecided on my beliefs. Deism makes most sense to me, I have a hard time believing God has active participation in the world. For example, people who claimed they were saved of being gay by the power of god or whatever, I find that completely retarded and I don't believe it for one second.

[fifpb99]

I don't know if I'd call myself agnostic, just confused. Since I was about 7 I think I was raised as a non-denominational Christian. (Protestant, just no real affiliation to any denomination.) Anyways, I didn't really change my mind. I still believe in God. But I also mostly believe in science. So obviously my predicament is if God created the Earth and all life on it, how can there be fossils from millions of years ago? Did God purposely want us to have these scientific facts to test our faith? Is Christianity not the 'right' religion? So I choose to lead as good of a life as possible, and believe in God, even if it means I'm confused all the while.

[Ms Smurf]

1. Atheist.
2. Parents are catholic. Go to a Catholic school.
3. Realised I didn't believe in God and that ( I think) it is quite irrational. That and I think organised faith is a murdeous institution and I've seen first hand the damage it does. Not that it doesn't do some good but the bad completly outwieghs the good.

[fifpb99]

I'm totally undecided on my beliefs. Deism makes most sense to me, I have a hard time believing God has active participation in the world. For example, people who claimed they were saved of being gay by the power of god or whatever, I find that completely retarded and I don't believe it for one second.

It doesn't matter if you believe it, if they feel that way that's their right to feel that way. I'm not going to debate homosexuality, I'm just going to simply state that despite the common belief people are born homosexual, that doesn't mean some people choose to be homosexual, whether it be conciously or not. So, maybe it took God for them to realize they aren't homosexual. But, again, no one can say for sure because I do not know what it is like to be gay or what impact God had on them, if any.

People say religion can trick / brainwash people to "be saved" from homosexuality, but can't modern society also trick and / or brainwash people to do things they normally wouldn't consider? And so it goes...

[jstames]

whats the one about not believing in anything?
i get those two confused...
but dont you believe in something...for instance when a light turns red, you believe that the other cars will stop...its confusing to me but thats legit.

and then-another thing
i was just wondering how can you want to believe in something, but you dont know if you can?
thats confusing to me
but its ok


and someone mentioned that they were "borderline" agnostic.
i dont quite understand how thats possible.

its saying i dont believe in anything...sometimes.

i guess its weird, like picking and choosing what is rational and what isnt

[thejetstolehome]

whats the one about not believing in anything?
i get those two confused...
but dont you believe in something...for instance when a light turns red, you believe that the other cars will stop...its confusing to me but thats legit.

and then-another thing
i was just wondering how can you want to believe in something, but you dont know if you can?
thats confusing to me
but its ok


and someone mentioned that they were "borderline" agnostic.
i dont quite understand how thats possible.

its saying i dont believe in anything...sometimes.

i guess its weird, like picking and choosing what is rational and what isnt

are you capable of forming a logical thought? it really doesn't seem like it.

[fifpb99]

That and I think organised faith is a murdeous institution and I've seen first hand the damage it does. Not that it doesn't do some good but the bad completly outwieghs the good.

I agree for the most part. Some religious organizations aren't, but many of them are. Catholicism to me is blasphemy. People begin to worship a man, the Pope, rather than worshiping God. If I do choose to follow a certain religion again, it is going to be me and only me dissecting the Bible or whatever book it may be and interpreting it my own way. Not someone feeding me the information they think pertains to my life and is important.

[Ms Smurf]

It doesn't matter if you believe it, if they feel that way that's their right to feel that way. I'm not going to debate homosexuality, I'm just going to simply state that despite the common belief people are born homosexual, that doesn't mean some people choose to be homosexual, whether it be conciously or not. So, maybe it took God for them to realize they aren't homosexual. But, again, no one can say for sure because I do not know what it is like to be gay or what impact God had on them, if any.

People say religion can trick / brainwash people to "be saved" from homosexuality, but can't modern society also trick and / or brainwash people to do things they normally wouldn't consider? And so it goes...

I don't understand that. Why would anyone choose to be any sexuality, what could the motivation possibly be? Maybe if you were raped as a child by a man you would choose only to have sex with women but I still don't think that would happen, why would you put yourself through that?
The people who claim to be "un-gay" have obviously gone though a lot of mental torture to get there, it's not healthy.

[thejetstolehome]

I agree for the most part. Some religious organizations aren't, but many of them are. Catholicism to me is blasphemy. People begin to worship a man, the Pope, rather than worshiping God. If I do choose to follow a certain religion again, it is going to be me and only me dissecting the Bible or whatever book it may be and interpreting it my own way. Not someone feeding me the information they think pertains to my life and is important.

Catholics don't worship the Pope. just becuase he's in charge doesn't mean they worship him. i was raised Catholic and was never once told to worship the Pope in place of God. i mean, it's all useless now as i don't practice or anything.

[Ms Smurf]

I agree for the most part. Some religious organizations aren't, but many of them are. Catholicism to me is blasphemy. People begin to worship a man, the Pope, rather than worshiping God. If I do choose to follow a certain religion again, it is going to be me and only me dissecting the Bible or whatever book it may be and interpreting it my own way. Not someone feeding me the information they think pertains to my life and is important.

Agreed. The Pope is just the most useless idea to ever walk the Earth. I remember my friend cried when the last Pope died, which I thought was hilarious. I mean, c'mon, the Church he led goes around Africa telling the men that condoms will give them HIV. It's disgusting.

[make_this_hurt]

Agreed. The Pope is just the most useless idea to ever walk the Earth. I remember my friend cried when the last Pope died, which I thought was hilarious. I mean, c'mon, the Church he led goes around Africa telling the men that condoms will give them HIV. It's disgusting.
Because laughing at the death of a man is so much better.

[thejetstolehome]

Agreed. The Pope is just the most useless idea to ever walk the Earth. I remember my friend cried when the last Pope died, which I thought was hilarious. I mean, c'mon, the Church he led goes around Africa telling the men that condoms will give them HIV. It's disgusting.

well, when the Church started to get power, it (the Vatican, i mean) was actually like a kingdom and the Pope was the head of said kingdom. before the Catholic Church lost its power, the Pope wasn't just a religious figure like he is now. he was a political presence. look at a map of Italy pre-unification and there's a region called the "Papal States."

[catscradle]

I agree for the most part. Some religious organizations aren't, but many of them are. Catholicism to me is blasphemy. People begin to worship a man, the Pope, rather than worshiping God. If I do choose to follow a certain religion again, it is going to be me and only me dissecting the Bible or whatever book it may be and interpreting it my own way. Not someone feeding me the information they think pertains to my life and is important.

Agreed. The Pope is just the most useless idea to ever walk the Earth. I remember my friend cried when the last Pope died, which I thought was hilarious. I mean, c'mon, the Church he led goes around Africa telling the men that condoms will give them HIV. It's disgusting.

wow, just wow. you both are extremely ignorant individuals.

[Ms Smurf]

well, when the Church started to get power, it (the Vatican, i mean) was actually like a kingdom and the Pope was the head of said kingdom. before the Catholic Church lost its power, the Pope wasn't just a religious figure like he is now. he was a political presence. look at a map of Italy pre-unification and there's a region called the "Papal States."

I don't see his pertinance these days.

[thejetstolehome]

I don't see his pertinance these days.

because Italy is unified. it's not a bunch of principalities anymore so he lost his political power. now he's just a religious leader who is head of the church.

[Ms Smurf]

Because laughing at the death of a man is so much better.

I was laughing at her at her mourning a man she had never met, a man who had never done anything that benifitted her life in any way and just the general over dramatic sense of grief everyone felt for a man who died quitely in his bed rather than giving one shit about all the other attrocities that go on in the world. I wasn't mocking his death, I was mocking everyones stupidity.

[thejetstolehome]

I was laughing at her at her mourning a man she had never met, a man who had never done anything that benifitted her life in any way and just the general over dramatic sense of grief everyone felt for a man who died quitely in his bed rather than giving one shit about all the other attrocities that go on in the world. I wasn't mocking his death, I was mocking everyones stupidity.

so it's stupid for the world to grieve over the death of one of the most influental and important men of the 20th century? christ almighty, i disagree with the Catholic church on just about everything and i don't go anymore but you're just ignorant.

and it's okay to see the lack of relavance the Pope may have today but to call it the "most useless idea ever" is ignorant of history.

[cantnokdahustle]

and it's okay to see the lack of relavance the Pope may have today but to call it the "most useless idea ever" is ignorant of history.

dude needs some papal history like a mother fucker.

Crazy ignorance of the idea in general. It can hardly be said to be the "most useless idea," given that it is in no way original. Many ancient Near Eastern religions had intermediaries on earth; Pharoah, Pythia, etc...

[sweet tragedy]

I was laughing at her at her mourning a man she had never met, a man who had never done anything that benifitted her life in any way and just the general over dramatic sense of grief everyone felt for a man who died quitely in his bed rather than giving one shit about all the other attrocities that go on in the world. I wasn't mocking his death, I was mocking everyones stupidity.

Oh, come on. Like that's the only time someone ever mourned the loss of some figure they've never met? I think not. It's a fairly common thing. If your favorite musician died, would you mourn that persons death?

[make_this_hurt]

I was laughing at her at her mourning a man she had never met, a man who had never done anything that benifitted her life in any way and just the general over dramatic sense of grief everyone felt for a man who died quitely in his bed rather than giving one shit about all the other attrocities that go on in the world. I wasn't mocking his death, I was mocking everyones stupidity.
Yea. Stupidity. The leader of the largest church in the world. No one should mourn him. Not at all.

You might be the most retarded cunt i've encountered in a long time. And fuck, I'm not even catholic. I'm just smart enough to realize the impact he has on millions of people's lives.

[concernedparent]

It doesn't matter if you believe it, if they feel that way that's their right to feel that way. I'm not going to debate homosexuality, I'm just going to simply state that despite the common belief people are born homosexual, that doesn't mean some people choose to be homosexual, whether it be conciously or not. So, maybe it took God for them to realize they aren't homosexual. But, again, no one can say for sure because I do not know what it is like to be gay or what impact God had on them, if any.

People say religion can trick / brainwash people to "be saved" from homosexuality, but can't modern society also trick and / or brainwash people to do things they normally wouldn't consider? And so it goes...

I'm not denying anyone the right to believe what they want, I'm just telling my beliefs. I don't believe God has active participation, like converting gays for example. What does happen, in my opinion, is the people are able to just pretend to be straight because of the fear of hell, or they weren't really gay in the first place. God has something to do with it, but it's not like God has an active role in it. Just my opinion.

[*crying stars*]

I was laughing at her at her mourning a man she had never met, a man who had never done anything that benifitted her life in any way and just the general over dramatic sense of grief everyone felt for a man who died quitely in his bed rather than giving one shit about all the other attrocities that go on in the world. I wasn't mocking his death, I was mocking everyones stupidity.

You are a complete moron.

Geez, you're such a badass for laughing at someone grieving.
That must up the punk cred you have.
People finding faith in something bigger than themselves? Laughable.
Cause all that matters is y-o-u.


How dare you?
A man who changed the course of history throughout the world, who was more tolerant than half of this world, a man who had a pure heart, that inspired faith in people across the globe, and you have the audacity to make fun of someone for mourning such a figure in their life?
He affected more lives than you think; even yours, whether you care or not.

Grow up, kid.
And when you find yourself believing in something or somebody and it or he/she dies, you'll know how it feels; and you can come up with some smartass remark but the fact remains that as you live your life ridiculing other people for their beliefs, you'll be alone.

[Shatter590]

ive been an atheist. ive been an agnostic. right now, im neither. I have faith, I know what i believe, and more importantly, what I dont believe.

my parents were raised without religion. i guess this is why they chose to raise me with it. i never went to religous schools, just church on Sunday. I was encouraged to learn about Jesus, but also to question what I learned, and to learn about other religions and beliefs. When I became an atheist, it was because that made sense to me. It no longer does.

I can tell you what drove me to atheism. But I cant exactly say what brought me out of it. All I know is one day I decided that atheism was wrong for me, and I wanted something else. It took me a few years, but I found what i was looking for.

[cantnokdahustle]

How dare you?
A man who changed the course of history throughout the world, who was more tolerant than half of this world, a man who had a pure heart, that inspired faith in people across the globe, and you have the audacity to make fun of someone for mourning such a figure in their life?
He affected more lives than you think; even yours, whether you care or not.


specifically John Paul the 2nd? Or do you mean the Papacy in general?

[tambam]

You are a complete moron.

Geez, you're such a badass for laughing at someone grieving.
That must up the punk cred you have.
People finding faith in something bigger than themselves? Laughable.
Cause all that matters is y-o-u.


How dare you?
A man who changed the course of history throughout the world, who was more tolerant than half of this world, a man who had a pure heart, that inspired faith in people across the globe, and you have the audacity to make fun of someone for mourning such a figure in their life?
He affected more lives than you think; even yours, whether you care or not.

Grow up, kid.
And when you find yourself believing in something or somebody and it or he/she dies, you'll know how it feels; and you can come up with some smartass remark but the fact remains that as you live your life ridiculing other people for their beliefs, you'll be alone.


Who cares? The fact that he's worshipped as if he's the closest thing to God is ridiculous. The Pope is just a person, like the rest of us. The fact that he may be a good person doesn't mean he should be given the kind of atteniton that he gets. What about the other great people that changed history all over the world? I don't see them being worshipped.

[cantnokdahustle]

Who cares? The fact that he's worshipped as if he's the closest thing to God is ridiculous. The Pope is just a person, like the rest of us. The fact that he may be a good person doesn't mean he should be given the kind of atteniton that he gets. What about the other great people that changed history all over the world? I don't see them being worshipped.

ridiculous? Absolutely! but this does not change the fact that there has been a long standing tradition in the roots of western thought, on intermediaries between the gods and human beings. Again, it is not an original idea.

You have far too much confidence in human beings, if you think they should have outgrown this by now.

[thejetstolehome]

Who cares? The fact that he's worshipped as if he's the closest thing to God is ridiculous. The Pope is just a person, like the rest of us. The fact that he may be a good person doesn't mean he should be given the kind of atteniton that he gets. What about the other great people that changed history all over the world? I don't see them being worshipped.

well, when you're the head of one of the largest religious groups in the world, that's gonna happen.

[and we whisper]

are you capable of forming a logical thought? it really doesn't seem like it.

i'm glad someone said it....i was so confused, and i thought it was me.

[and we whisper]

ive been an atheist. ive been an agnostic. right now, im neither. I have faith, I know what i believe, and more importantly, what I dont believe.

my parents were raised without religion. i guess this is why they chose to raise me with it. i never went to religous schools, just church on Sunday. I was encouraged to learn about Jesus, but also to question what I learned, and to learn about other religions and beliefs. When I became an atheist, it was because that made sense to me. It no longer does.

I can tell you what drove me to atheism. But I cant exactly say what brought me out of it. All I know is one day I decided that atheism was wrong for me, and I wanted something else. It took me a few years, but I found what i was looking for.

how?

[*crying stars*]

Who cares? The fact that he's worshipped as if he's the closest thing to God is ridiculous. The Pope is just a person, like the rest of us. The fact that he may be a good person doesn't mean he should be given the kind of atteniton that he gets. What about the other great people that changed history all over the world? I don't see them being worshipped.

-Yeah, I guess a billion people follow him simply because they are indifferent.

-How else would we remember any great person in history?

[tambam]

I know it's a long standing tradition, I just don't think the Pope as a figure is necessary. I think it's extremely pointless, in fact. I don't expect people to outgrow him, but I can still disagree with why and how he's in the place that he is.

[thejetstolehome]

I know it's a long standing tradition, I just don't think the Pope as a figure is necessary. I think it's extremely pointless, in fact. I don't expect people to outgrow him, but I can still disagree with why and how he's in the place that he is.

if i were religious, i would definitely agree with you. i'd rather "communicate" with God by myself and not through somebody. but, what Catholicism offers that i like is a non-literal translation of the text of the Bible.

[Ambulance X]

The Pope is perhaps one of the most evil men in the history of the world. He has the blood of millions and millions of African AIDS victims on his hands; from past, current, and future generations.

[tambam]

if i were religious, i would definitely agree with you. i'd rather "communicate" with God by myself and not through somebody. but, what Catholicism offers that i like is a non-literal translation of the text of the Bible.

I'm not religious at all, but I still don't think he's necissary.

[matt_rawlings]

I would say I am agnostic. I want there to be a god, but am unable to give myself 100% to the concept of a god or higher power.

My parents never forced me into any religion ever, they always said that they wanted me to make that call on my own terms, which I did. Nobody in my family is very religious.

[Shatter590]

how?

the idea that being scientific and also faithful is incompatible is very false. while the cornerstone of religion is faith, often in things that are illogical or irreconcilible with science, the idea behind faith, that is, belief in something, is not. It is possible to have faith in science, faith in nature, faith in what you see. Belief need not be mutually exclusive to religion.

In my case, faith and a deep belief in both eastern spirituality and the non-quantifiable sciences (like astrophysics, which is all that much speculation and at times mimics metaphysics in its tenets) that brought back a return to faith. While the literal aspects of the bible and christianity are obviously disproven, the moral concept, mental and spiritual dogmas and ideas of personal responsibility are all things that can be altered and accepted to a science-minded individual. I do believe in miracles, I do believe in things greater than I (not God per se, but the idea of a mass consciousness or universal order as catalyst for existence- read Deepak Chopra) and I find that these things do not detract from a rational existence, but add to it, and enrich what I already know.

I also came up with this a few years ago when someone said the bible contradicts science: If man was made in God's image, and man is inherently lazy (if one disagrees, I direct them to studies on the Kalahari San, also known as the Bushmen. theyre as pure as we humans can get), would not God also possess such "laziness" and as such create science as a means for ordering and keeping the universe functioning?

On that same note, if you were God, despite being "Omnipotent and omnipresent," wouldnt you like to have a system of order in place to keep everything running smoothly.

Its the same concept, just phrased differently.

[Shatter590]

Are you a deist then?

Do you believe in an afterlife?

An afterlife, yes.

THE alfterlife, no.

If the universe is presented in cycles/circles, then why must we quanitfylife as what amounts to a straight line?

and i wouldnt say deist. I dont believe in any gods.

[Shatter590]

That wasnt the kind of afterlife i was implying, i was meaning the kind where we either chum it up with jesus for eternity or get fucked by the devil. All this takes place in our fully sentient capacity.

Which i assume by your last post you dont believe

the jury is still out. I dont believe in heaven or hell.

Im still mulling over the entire collective consciousness idea right now. I guess the closest dogmatic afterlife i subscribe to is reincarnation with if not full, at least most of the death of the self. Kind of like the Hun and Po souls of Taoism- one is your self, the other your base matter, which is influenced by right action and your moral standing in life.

[fedhed7]

Once you die, there is nothing. Your brain stops functioning, your blood stops flowing, and your heart stops beating. You don't float up into the heavens, walk on clouds, and talk to angels. You just die. The only thing that lives on is your legacy.

Heaven and hell were both invented by human beings to convince other human beings that if they are good Christians, they'll go to heaven. If they're sinful, they're sent to hell when they die.

[Shatter590]

Once you die, there is nothing. Your brain stops functioning, your blood stops flowing, and your heart stops beating. You don't float up into the heavens, walk on clouds, and talk to angels. You just die. The only thing that lives on is your legacy.

Heaven and hell were both invented by human beings to convince other human beings that if they are good Christians, they'll go to heaven. If they're sinful, they're sent to hell when they die.

the concept of afterlife and survival goes beyond mere heaven/hell discussions.

personally, i would like to believe in something. it makes life that much nicer.

[Ambulance X]

the concept of afterlife and survival goes beyond mere heaven/hell discussions.

personally, i would like to believe in something. it makes life that much nicer.

Just because it makes life nicer doesn't make it true.

[Shatter590]

Just because it makes life nicer doesn't make it true.

but let me ask you this: does it hurt any?

[Ambulance X]

but let me ask you this: does it hurt any?

Well, it can hurt, yes. For example, if someone wants to enter the Christian version of heaven, they will waste their Sundays kneeling in Church when they could be getting an education, or actually contributing to society in any little way. Maybe imagine how great it would be if instead of wasting their time kneeling on Sundays, millions of people instead went to work at soup kitchens for an hour, or visited nursing homes for that hour...

Now, if you were to make up your own personal Heaven and just believe that you will go there, I suppose it doesn't hurt, but I don't understand how you could just fabricate something...acknowledge that you fabricated it, and then put faith in it.

[Shatter590]

Well, it can hurt, yes. For example, if someone wants to enter the Christian version of heaven, they will waste their Sundays kneeling in Church when they could be getting an education, or actually contributing to society in any little way. Maybe imagine how great it would be if instead of wasting their time kneeling on Sundays, millions of people instead went to work at soup kitchens for an hour, or visited nursing homes for that hour...

Now, if you were to make up your own personal Heaven and just believe that you will go there, I suppose it doesn't hurt, but I don't understand how you could just fabricate something...acknowledge that you fabricated it, and then put faith in it.

well you see, therein lies the dilemma. church can lead to moral rightness: my church ran a homeless shelter for 25 years, and I volunteered constantly. I also like to view Jesus as a person of emulation- follow his actions. I pull from Christianity what makes sense to me, which is mostly moral text.

as for my "personal heaven"- as I said, I dont believe in it. Neither heaven nor hell. And Im fairly certain of the death of the self as well. But for the rest...I read enough books on the subject by everyone from scientists to spiritualists, and I can't say for certain what there is or is not. The concept of the wu from Taoism makes a lot of sense to me from a practical standpoint, as do the Hun and Po soul concept. Also, as i said previously, the idea of life being a linear process seems to conflict with the general cyclical/circular nature of the universe at large. Ive spent almost a decade reading arguments and counter arguments, native american spiritual journeys, soul seeking and everything else from respected physicists, humanists and even my own research as an anthropologist and come down to a simple doctrine:

Believe in what you believe in. Thats what makes it yours.

[Shatter590]

Jesus was an early socialist and a man of little possesions, where the hell has that message gone in America?

gone the way of "family values"

whenever a religion becomes codified as a state system, it loses something. personally, Jesus falls squarely in line with Siddhartha Gautama- man of right action and wisdom worthy of emulation.

[catscradle]

Well, it can hurt, yes. For example, if someone wants to enter the Christian version of heaven, they will waste their Sundays kneeling in Church when they could be getting an education, or actually contributing to society in any little way. Maybe imagine how great it would be if instead of wasting their time kneeling on Sundays, millions of people instead went to work at soup kitchens for an hour, or visited nursing homes for that hour...

Now, if you were to make up your own personal Heaven and just believe that you will go there, I suppose it doesn't hurt, but I don't understand how you could just fabricate something...acknowledge that you fabricated it, and then put faith in it.

I'm sure all the non-believers, including yourself, devote your free time to such things every chance you get, i mean you are contributing so much to society right now by posting on a message board and arguing. Honestly, if that hour spent in church makes that individual happy and excites their minds to get thinking about the things said during the homily and scripture readings, what is wrong with that? who are you to judge what makes a person happy? You need to stop worrying about the beliefs of other people and how they can make a difference, and focus on yourself and how you can make your own impact in the world.

[Shatter590]

I'm sure all the non-believers, including yourself, devote your free time to such things every chance you get, i mean you are contributing so much to society right now by posting on a message board and arguing. Honestly, if that hour spent in church makes that individual happy and excites their minds to get thinking about the things said during the homily and scripture readings, what is wrong with that? who are you to judge what makes a person happy? You need to stop worrying about the beliefs of other people and how they can make a difference, and focus on yourself and how you can make your own impact in the world.

thats the essence of what religion is/should be. from a biochemical perspective, faith and ritual activates parts of the brain that lead to positive emotions and actions. right action is the end result.

but you can get it from anything meaningful.

and of course, society forgets that and turns what should be a "mystical" experience into something its not by dogmatizing it.

[Shatter590]

Who's to say he can't do both.

and doing away with religion would improve the lives of many people.

from a social perspective yes.

but eliminating religion from a personal sphere might have adverse reactions on the psyche. like with me, when I had my nervous breakdown I had nothing to fall back on, just a sense of despair and the idea that my life was meaningless. if I had the faith that I have now, it might not have been as bad as it was.

[catscradle]

Who's to say he can't do both.

and doing away with religion would improve the lives of many people.

people like you are what make the world such a shitty place. You are just as bad as any other religious group trying to push their beliefs upon other people. It is not your place to judge somebody and act as if you are superior to others because you hold a different standard of beliefs. The moment you begin to think you are superior to someone else because you think you are wiser then them shows just how foolish you are.

[Shatter590]

people like you are what make the world such a shitty place. You are just as bad as any other religious group trying to push their beliefs upon other people. It is not your place to judge somebody and act as if you are superior to others because you hold a different standard of beliefs. The moment you begin to think you are superior to someone else because you think you are wiser then them shows just how foolish you are.

i agree with your ideas, but not your phrasing of them.

[catscradle]

i agree with your ideas, but not your phrasing of them.

feel free to phrase it as you wish appropriate, as i truly am struggling to find the right words to get my point across. i'm glad you still got the point though.

[Shatter590]

feel free to phrase it as you wish appropriate, as i truly am struggling to find the right words to get my point across. i'm glad you still got the point though.

its been one cornerstone of my existence for a while lol

[catscradle]

Your logic is flawed. It is perfectly acceptable to encourage others to enter a new way of thinking if it is for the greater good. Please try not spouting useless cliches and empty rhetoric that you've heard or read elsewhere and which think makes you seem big and intelligent, by using it, because believe me its neither endearing nor succesful.

Was it wrong for Lincoln to go to war with the south? Or should he not of forced his views of slavery onto other people?

Was it wrong for Britain to declare war on Germany in 1939 or was it wrong for us to tell people that fascism and genocideor actually not all that great even if they were awfully popular in Germany?

unlike you my friend, i don't think i am any wiser than the next person. I stand firm on the things i know and don't pretend to know otherwise. This is what sets me apart from the likes of you, as i try not to set myself apart from my peers.

Let me just say that there is nothing in the way you present your beliefs that is encouraging of a new way of thinking. You present your beliefs in a dichotomistic fashion that says your beliefs are wrong and mine are right and i am better than you for believing in those things. There is nothing admirable about that. It is foolish and arrogant.

And your examples are flawed as there are definite answers to what is right and wrong in those situations. When it comes to religion there is no definite answers to these type of questions. It comes down to the balancing of faith and reason and finding where one picks up where the other one ends.

[Siren Silently]

I'm athiest now, but I grew up a Christian (Attended Christian schools for the first 5-6 school years of my life). I used to grow up believing in god because I didn't know what else to believe in. After I grew up a bit, I began to analyze and speculate as to whether there really is a god and that the only reason why I believed was because I was too innocent and too young to know better.

[Vint]

All morality is subjective, there are those that believe Hitler was a great man and that Slavery was a good thing. They still exist today and at the time they actually had a majority of support. There is no right and wrong set in stone way of doing things, its all opnions and its only logical to think your own is the best.

it's*

opinions*

Unlike morality, grammar is pretty objective. ;-)


*returns to lurking*

[nonamesleft]

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic? Yes
2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination? Yeah, my parents were christian and we used to go to church some sundays, but quit because i play hockey and it was either or so, hockey was the obvious choice.
c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about? uhh, well, I just don't see how this whole God and Jesus thing works out.

[BitterBuffalo]

1. Agnostic.
2. My dad's a Roman Catholic and my mom is a Babtist. Thay are both very involved w/ their churches.
3. Too much violence happens because of religious views. I believe in something, whether it be a God or a spiritual force, I think life has to have more meaning than just right now.

[Nightfreak]

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic?

I'm an strong atheist.

2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination?

My mum claims to be Christian, but I can't remember any religious upbringing.

c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about?

I suppose I sort of believed in God until I got into secondary/high school, and that's when I started becoming more agnostic of the whole idea, until I had enough understanding of the world and what a god existing would actually entail, and now I just can't believe in a god of any sort, not without proof.

[Carlo Marx]

atheist. went to catcholic school from kindergarten up through my senior year of high school. I stopped believing in god sometime during highschool, when I realized that every religion claims to be right and how silly it would be for a "higher power" to actually favor one group of people over another. If there is such a thing as a benevolent god, then everyone is right.

[exxxoduss]

I believe the two go hand in hand.

explain how the two go hand in hand...you have god- created everything....science- everything came about through evolution...

[exxxoduss]

-athiest
-yes, my parents always made me go to church, under Lutheran
-i really don't think i've ever really believed in god

[deadstar]

That is where the atheist and the theist differ. An atheist cares about the unmovable truth, where as the theist will settle for a consensus of lies. Its not about conversion, its about what is correct ans what is not.

Faith is not a fact. If you want everything to be spelled out for you, then faith isnt for you. Why look down on those that believe something else?

[deadstar]

The same reason i'd look down on someone who believed in Zeus, Thor, Ghosts, Wotan and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Our beliefs aren't just made up unfounded things.

You're so contradictory. You claim that all morality is subjective. This isnt a moral issue to us. Its a question of intolerance. You're belligerance and unwilligness to be accepting of other people's beliefs is astounding. Intolerant people like you are the reason there will be wars in the furture. You are the hitler.

[deadstar]

Haha thats quite the accusation. There is a difference between accepting peoples right to hold a certain opinion and thinking that said opinion is unfounded, illogical and ridiculous.

People can think what they want but that doesn't grant them immunity from me or others questioning their beliefs.

And if your beliefs aren't unfounded give me some evidence as to why there aren't undounded.
I dont need to give you evidence. Your mind is already made up.

You liken you're right to question other people's beliefs to Lincoln quesitoning slavery and people questioning Hitler. This absolutely disgusts me. There is no moral question here. There is no mass mistreatment of equals or genocide of a race. This is just a matter of someone being able to tolerate and respect someone else's beliefs. It absolutely makes me sick that someone who claims to be "intelligent" can say the thigns you say.

[deadstar]

Errr what? Are you devoid of any brain whatsoever? Religious division is causing deaths across the globe and has done for thousands of years.

How is there not a moral question when people think it accetable to torture members of other sects (Iraqi Sectarianism) and fly planes into bulidngs in the name of religion, my morals say this is not acceptable and what is behind this? Religion. Sure these people are in the minority and sure they are taking their religion somewhat out of context but is that not what the medieval church did for 1500 years in the name of Jesus?

I am tolerating peoples beliefs. But that doesnt mean i cant question them. People can believe in the Protocols of Zion, they can believe in Nuwaubianism or whatever they want but that doesnt mean i cant say, "Hey, wait a second you honestly think that world Jewry is tied up in a plot to take over the world and enslave manking, thats pretty stupid." or alternatively, "You think a man in the first century who we know almost nothing about is the human son of a celestial being we cant see, thats pretty stupid too."

And who says my mind is made up, if there was any evidence for God i would instantly reconsider my views and make a new decision either way.
Well I'm done talking to you.

[deadstar]

Call it religion, call it whatever you want. People will still twist beliefs of people from the past/present into something to push their own agendas, religious or political. This is why your "religion is so bad" argument fails.

[deadstar]

Matter of opinion. Many think the same of you.

[deadstar]

My religion?

I edited it so the mentally challenged can understand.

[deadstar]

So people twist Fascism to justify awful things. Does that mean that Fascism is still Okay?
Your seriously comparing religions to facism? This is a joke. I'm done here.

[thejetstolehome]

honestly, no matter what side you're on, live and let live.

[JustAnotherPoet]

i'm agnostic, although becoming closer to the borderline of atheism everyday. my parents were raised lutheran and catholic and both felt suffocated by religions that they didn't particularly agree with, therefore wanted me to grow up more free-minded and continue to draw my own conclusions. i don't denounce faith or organized religion in any way, i just feel that the bible, torah and such are more closely related to mythology as opposed to raw facts. i would like to believe there is someone out there looking after me and guiding me in some way, but its hard to hang on to that when i've gone through many things that i wouldn't wish on even my worst enemy. i'm too logical to have faith in someone i can't prove exists but yet, i want to badly enough that i don't call myself an atheist up front

[thejetstolehome]

any ideology can be twisted to justify atrocities.

[thejetstolehome]

my point is that any ideology can be twisted to fit any number of political and social goals. it is not necessesarily the ideology that is bad but the person/people/group doing the manipulating. for example, you probably don't think that Islam is an inherently violent religion yet there are those that twist it to fit their goals.

[IAmNotJoeTrohmn]

I'm agnostic.
My father was raised Catholic, and my mother was raised Jewish. I was raised Jewish, but my family celebrates major Christian holidays as well. I had a bat mitzvah.
I personally don't see any proof that God exists, but I don't want to completely rule out the possibility, especially because I believe in some form of life after death.

[howdydoody]

thanks for turning the one thread that wasn't supposed to be debate related into a debate.
i'm 100 percent sure, based on the logic of what i've scene and the evidence put forth, that some people really don't care about anything more than being smarter than the next dude here at absolutepunk. If it weren't God, it would be something else. Some of the folks here that are around the 20 year mark actually show some maturity. Some have way too much intelligence its just overflowing like the poop monster from the toilet in the back. Maybe when those folks get some years of experience doing something besides living off mom and pop, marry and have kids, they can appreciate things a little more. The difference in the mature and the 'too big for their breeches' is astoundingly evident.

[howdydoody]

.. maybe some deeper life experiences can bless you with clearer sight and more open ears. I hope something wonderfully inexplicable happens to you that opens up new doors. I'm being serious and directing that toward you specifically. I've not agreed very much with your ways of wording things and have tried to be patient. But really.. I hope something astounding happens for you some day. :-)

[deadstar]

Well humans have been waiting 120,000 for God to make contact so the chances of happening to someone like me is unlikely, but thanks for the encouragement regardless.

You make it seem like i live my life with no direction and a miserable existence, which couldnt be futher from the truth, i am very happy to live my life without fairy tales thanks.

This comment is just so unneccesary. Show some maturity.

[Shatter590]

This comment is just so unneccesary. Show some maturity.

that WAS a bit harsh, yes.

[catscradle]

Well humans have been waiting 120,000 for God to make contact so the chances of happening to someone like me is unlikely, but thanks for the encouragement regardless.

You make it seem like i live my life with no direction and a miserable existence, which couldnt be futher from the truth, i am very happy to live my life without fairy tales thanks.

I try my best to take you seriously, but it's nearly impossible to when you continue to make posts like this.

[deadstar]

Little red riding hood is more likely to be true than the bible. Sure the story didnt happen but at least we know little girls and wolves exist. The bible claims a load of wild stories about beings which arent even real.

Plus the Bible thinks fairies are real anyway.
hahahaha. You have clearly learned nothing. You continually lump all the books of the Bible together when NUMEROUS people have explained this to you.

[howdydoody]

Well humans have been waiting 120,000 for God to make contact so the chances of happening to someone like me is unlikely, but thanks for the encouragement regardless.

You make it seem like i live my life with no direction and a miserable existence, which couldnt be futher from the truth, i am very happy to live my life without fairy tales thanks.

your welcome

i don't think you don't have direction.. its obvious you're very founded in your beliefs, which is fine by me. the only thing that leads me to believe you might not be all that happy is a somewhat percievable need to up yourself in the midst of others.

i don't necessarily think that God will make his voice evident to you in a thunderclap sort of way, but I still have hope that someday something will happen for you that may make it evident that there is 'movement' working around you. :-) That is my wishes for everybody who hasn't experienced it.

[deadstar]

You seem to understand nothing about religion or the Bible at all.

Here is how it works for your benifit.

The Bible is basically designed to be a handy guide that firstly (although it is more an assumption) proves God exists and then details what God expects of you and then what you will get in return for compliance or defiance of his actions.

all the bible stories are designed to fufill one of those two points.
Your Bible understanding is clearly not up to par if you cant understand basic beliefs of it. Please refrain on trying to give lessons when you yourself dont understand.

[deadstar]

Haha on a basic level how is it anything other than that?
Because the Bible is not basic. It cant be generalized and summed up with a sentence or two. Also, why would I listen to anything that you believe on it? Your beliefs are completely different than mine.

[howdydoody]

He's all about the thunder clap in the old testament so what has made God stop it with the fire and brimstone?

It seems you want to believe in God so make very large leaps of assumption to justify his involvement in things with a far more rational explanation which do nothing in reality to suggest his existence. No before you say i do the exact opposite and dont want to believe in God so i ignore the signs etc.. that is not true i enter with an open mind and if the "miracles" of the bible occured in real life or if God spoke to me etc.. then i would believe instantly. The Bible claims God is a constant and never changes, well if that is so then why does he no longer vent his fury for all to see. Where are the miracles? Why isnt anyone able to feed 5000 people with a loaf of bread or able to part the oceans with a stick?
The leaps aren't some sort of irrational way of thinking, its just experience I've had with spirituality over many years, moreso even as of late. I don't think you ignore signs on purpose, I just think the signs may be coming to you in ways that you might be looking in another direction for. I'm not trying to assume anything about you, but if I think of people that like to have things absolute, and logical, that is the way you search for answers. However, when something is out of the realm of absolution or logic, the signs would likely manifest in a similar way. As for ancient miracles on the level of parting seas or burning bushes, those miracles may have some scientific explanations for them, but it wouldn't mean that it still wasn't put into motion due to a higher intellience for a specific reason unknown to our mortal minds. It may also have something to do with that he reveals himself now via the Bible and thru faith, whereas during the times you speak of, there was no Bible.

[howdydoody]

there have been too many instances of answered prayer and good things in my life to sum it all up as 'grasping at straws'.

[catchmealone]

Haha well how many prayers have gone unanswered?

How many prayers of horrible people have been answered?

You dont think Osama hasnt prayed a fair few times to cause suffering on America? Well God sure answered his prayers, so God is now down with Al Quaeda seen as he answered Osama's prayers.

People pray every day and it rarely gets answered. You dont think that when it does it is just coincidence.

Sure a few cancer patients have gotten better but so have counless patients who didnt pray to any celestial beings. No amputees ever have their legs grow back do they? No matter how often they pray.

I bet there was a hell of a lot of praying going on in Austwich and Dakau but not all too many people being saved.
out of curiosity, how exactly did God answer Osama Bin Laden's prayers?

[catchmealone]

Being the hugely religious man he is, its safe to assume he prayed for the success of the 9/11 attacks and future insurgencies in Afghanistan and Iraq as did pretty much the whole of the muslim extremist movement.

By the logic HowdyDoody was using to prove prayer works, that being that if one prays for something and that then occurs it means that God answered said prayer, Osama's (and his followers) prayers were answered by God.

I dont accept this logic but i was just illustrating how foolish the logic is.
fair enough. I can't speak for howdydoody, but perhaps she meant God answers prayers(plural, meaning more than 1), and not God answers prayers(plural, meaning all)

I do think the 9/11 reference is a bit overboard, as was the Nazi Germany one. I don't think anyone here believes that those actions were the work of God.

[howdydoody]

I think that you might presume that I once prayed for something simple and it came to be and I was forever a believer. What I would like for people to understand about me specifically is that thruout my entire life, prayer has been answered. Not always in the specific way that I thought it would, but when time came to look back in hindsight, it was clear that everything came to pass the way it was better for me and other people involved. You have said again and again that there is no evidence to support these various things, and that there are all these negative cards stacked against having a spiritual life, but I can't reiterate enough that you will not find this 'evidence' and 'logic' in the ways you're thinking they are going to manifest. I'm not trying to argue with you at all, I just wish you might think of how argumentative you are coming across to someone (me) who is not wishing to argue, but peacefully state how I operate.

[katekate]

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic?
2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination?
c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about?

1. i'd say agnostic but i'm leaning towards athiest.
2. welll my family isnt really religious (my mum is catholic but we dont go to church or anything) but when i was about 11 i started going to youth group with my best friend and after a couple of years they converted me to christian.
3. thenn i started thinking about the science side of things when i was about 14 and realised i wasnt sure if i believed in god but i still went to youth group because my friends from primary school went and it was the only time we caught up. but the more i went the more i realised i didnt believe in god.
especially when they brought this lady in and spoke to us about how god talks to her.

anyway so i stopped going a few weeks later and ever since i guess i've been agnostic.

[Ambulance X]

I think that you might presume that I once prayed for something simple and it came to be and I was forever a believer. What I would like for people to understand about me specifically is that thruout my entire life, prayer has been answered. Not always in the specific way that I thought it would, but when time came to look back in hindsight, it was clear that everything came to pass the way it was better for me and other people involved. You have said again and again that there is no evidence to support these various things, and that there are all these negative cards stacked against having a spiritual life, but I can't reiterate enough that you will not find this 'evidence' and 'logic' in the ways you're thinking they are going to manifest. I'm not trying to argue with you at all, I just wish you might think of how argumentative you are coming across to someone (me) who is not wishing to argue, but peacefully state how I operate.

Your prayers were not "answered" in the sense that God intervened in your life for the better because you asked "him" to. It just so happened that the things you prayed for coincidentally occured. The point that lunchforthesky was making was that Osama surely prayed to Allah for the success of 9/11; and just as your prayers were not answered by "God", his prayers were not answered by "Allah". The events just so happened to play out in a way that was congruent with your prayers and Osama's prayers.

Here's a good satire...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZEocOGeOcw

[howdydoody]

Its cool.. I understand how you guys feel.

[nowherestreet]

there is a purpose to everything in life, so what is the purpose of life itself?

[Nowisnotthetime]

1) Are you Athiest or Agnostic?
Agnostic
2) Did you have any religion in your past or current upbringing? If so, what religion/denomination?
Catholic church every week and Catholic school
c) How, if any change, did your change in beliefs come about?
I started questioning my faith wondering how people who don't believe in Jesus but are good people would not go to heaven (stated in the bible). This started because my Grandfather, who was an amazing person, died and I felt like it was ridiculous that my faith wouldn't go into heaven. I started reading and taking philosophy classes, Hume, Satre, lots of others, and came to the realization that there is no way to know. You can keep going back forever but you can't go infinitely back, at least not with our minds. We'll never know how or when things began and if there is a God. Who created God when did he come to exist. You see, there are certain unexplainable questions and I think if we live our lives the best we can that is all we can do. If there is by some miracle a heaven and God only let's people in who believed in the "right" religion, then I'd rather not go anyway.

[costello.]

1) Similar to the way some Christians are hesitant to call themselves that because of the example set by the extremists of their religion, I am always reluctant to call myself an Atheist...
2) Catholic school.
3) I started going to Catholic school, and being forced into learning these things really opened my eyes to how flawed it all was.

[Shatter590]

To do whatever makes you enjoy your one existence most.

and to procreate. the need to pass on genes is a biological context that is very hard to deny

[Shatter590]

I was thinking on a sentient conscious level rather than on a biological natural terms but your right.

whats interesting is when you look at primate behaviour, so much of it is derived from the simple need to pass on genes. And when taken into human contexts, a lot of our social and interpersonal relations revolve around sex and sexual actions.

[Shatter590]

It is interesting that despite our intelligence much of our social heirarchy is a more elaborate form of those employed by the apes and that our needs are much the same as theirs.

well, so much of our behaviour is genetic. While we learn culture from external and social sources, certain aspects are derived from our genes, like the need to breed, need to be comforted, etc etc. Aside from being distinctly mammalian, they are also more pronounced in primates due to brain size and other evolutionary mechanisms.

Besides...are we not merely the greatest of the great apes?

[thejetstolehome]

http://uranther.com/funnypics/jesus_lastsupper.gif

[deadstar]

http://uranther.com/funnypics/jesus_lastsupper.gif
Jesus > Sephiroth

[mps]

However, I essentially think that "something came from nothing" (which violates the law of conservation of matter), which would imply that some sort of force existed back then that caused it.



What's so hard to believe about that? Technicalities can get past that, many things do.

[mps]

the idea that being scientific and also faithful is incompatible is very false. while the cornerstone of religion is faith, often in things that are illogical or irreconcilible with science, the idea behind faith, that is, belief in something, is not. It is possible to have faith in science, faith in nature, faith in what you see. Belief need not be mutually exclusive to religion.

In my case, faith and a deep belief in both eastern spirituality and the non-quantifiable sciences (like astrophysics, which is all that much speculation and at times mimics metaphysics in its tenets) that brought back a return to faith. While the literal aspects of the bible and christianity are obviously disproven, the moral concept, mental and spiritual dogmas and ideas of personal responsibility are all things that can be altered and accepted to a science-minded individual. I do believe in miracles, I do believe in things greater than I (not God per se, but the idea of a mass consciousness or universal order as catalyst for existence- read Deepak Chopra) and I find that these things do not detract from a rational existence, but add to it, and enrich what I already know.

I also came up with this a few years ago when someone said the bible contradicts science: If man was made in God's image, and man is inherently lazy (if one disagrees, I direct them to studies on the Kalahari San, also known as the Bushmen. theyre as pure as we humans can get), would not God also possess such "laziness" and as such create science as a means for ordering and keeping the universe functioning?

On that same note, if you were God, despite being "Omnipotent and omnipresent," wouldnt you like to have a system of order in place to keep everything running smoothly.

Its the same concept, just phrased differently.

That is absurd! Do you even know what astrophysics is? Non-quantifiable science? The point of science is to be empirical!

[mps]

lunchforthesky - What's your name? I like you, haha.

Sorry if we've talked before, I have a habit of forgetting people!

[Peter Skulls]

1. I'm an athiest

2. Yeah, my parents grandparents are....well, they live out in the middle of the woods with a bunch of guns and make my female cousins wear head coverings....I don't think that there's a denomination for that. Maybe fuckedism...And my mom and step-father are both Baptists. I think that being brought up in very religious household had something to do with my not believing an a God. I mean, you hear, "You're going to Hell for those sinful thoughts" enough times and you eventually wonder if it's you or them that are fucked... As I found out, it was them.

[takingbackrufio]

What's so hard to believe about that? Technicalities can get past that, many things do.
Er .. I (think) I was saying, that's what I believe - that the Universe originated from that kind of phenomenon.

[Shatter590]

That is absurd! Do you even know what astrophysics is? Non-quantifiable science? The point of science is to be empirical!

im talking about sciences that are based in mostly speculation, where the observable can be seen but not measured or broken down. like the entire concept of "Dark Matter", "photonics" and how the structure of black holes changes ever few years but even the best astrophysicists cant exactly explain what the thing is.

[Aearwen1024]

I'm starting to think we need a separate or different forum for religion. The politics forum is becoming less and less about politics and more about God. Not trying to be mean or anyting, but I prefer political discussion to endless and unwinnable debates involving something you can't prove or disprove to begin with.

:spider:


Yeah, I agree with you, but unfortunately the big topics in the US today are the War, abortion, and homosexual rights. Most opinions on the last two topics are formed by religious views or the lack thereof. Though the Constitution states a seperation of church and state in gov't, there is no way to seperate them in politics.

[Aearwen1024]

The same reason i'd look down on someone who believed in Zeus, Thor, Ghosts, Wotan and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.


HOW DARE YOU BANDY ABOUT THE NAME OF THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER SO FOOLISHLY?????

[Aearwen1024]

1) I'm pretty much an agnostic bordering on an atheist. I think on that scale that people have been using, I'm a 6.5.

2) I had a Roman Catholic upbringing. I was baptized, recieved Holy Communion, and Confirmed while in public school (through CCD classes) and I now go to a Catholic high school. My grandparents and extended family are religious, and my parents follow RC rules during Lent and Advent and such, but we don't go to Church. In fact, it's Easter Sunday and we aren't going now.....>.>;

3) In CCD classes, I might have been 7 or so, and my teacher had said that 'God loves everyone more than your parents love you.' And my 7 year old mind was a) creeped out, and b) skeptical. How could someone whom I've never met love me? From there I just found more and more that I didn't agree with, both in the Bible and the Church as an insitution. Belief that women are lesser than men, that homosexuals are lesser than heterosexuals, etc., is complete bull to me. The Bible says that (in more words) and it was written by 'inspired authors', meaning that when they were writing, God was pretty much dictating. The Christian line of thought is hypocritical to me, and I don't believe a word of it. I also looked up other forms of belief and I have no faith in any of them.

Oddly enough, I still say 'What the hell?' and 'Oh my God.' It's really just a function of where I grew up. It's embedded in the NYC vernacular. I enjoy celebrating Christmas because in my family; it really isn't a religious holiday, it's more of a family-oriented one. I also tone down my views on the Church and all forms of standardized religion because my parents 'refuse to listen to you talk about it so you better shut up.'

I don't understand why different belief systems are so looked down on. Really, I think religions are wrong, but I don't tell people that they are wrong for believing it. I think we are all equal and should treat each other as such. I got mad when schools band religious symbols of one denomination but allow others. To me, you either allow every belief system in schools or you allow none. It's like 'One nation under God.' I don't agree with 'under God,' but that's the way the pledge has been for a long time, and to me, I just don't say that part. No need to go apeshit on people for saying it or not, just.......do what you want.

/rant.