Monty Python writer's op-ed in The Guardian

[aminorthreat55]

Fucking brilliant. (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2047110,00.html)
I share the outrage expressed in the British press over the treatment of our naval personnel accused by Iran of illegally entering their waters. It is a disgrace. We would never dream of treating captives like this - allowing them to smoke cigarettes, for example, even though it has been proven that smoking kills. And as for compelling poor servicewoman Faye Turney to wear a black headscarf, and then allowing the picture to be posted around the world - have the Iranians no concept of civilised behaviour? For God's sake, what's wrong with putting a bag over her head? That's what we do with the Muslims we capture: we put bags over their heads, so it's hard to breathe. Then it's perfectly acceptable to take photographs of them and circulate them to the press because the captives can't be recognised and humiliated in the way these unfortunate British service people are.

It is also unacceptable that these British captives should be made to talk on television and say things that they may regret later. If the Iranians put duct tape over their mouths, like we do to our captives, they wouldn't be able to talk at all. Of course they'd probably find it even harder to breathe - especially with a bag over their head - but at least they wouldn't be humiliated.

And what's all this about allowing the captives to write letters home saying they are all right? It's time the Iranians fell into line with the rest of the civilised world: they should allow their captives the privacy of solitary confinement. That's one of the many privileges the US grants to its captives in Guantánamo Bay.

The true mark of a civilised country is that it doesn't rush into charging people whom it has arbitrarily arrested in places it's just invaded. The inmates of Guantánamo, for example, have been enjoying all the privacy they want for almost five years, and the first inmate has only just been charged. What a contrast to the disgraceful Iranian rush to parade their captives before the cameras!

What's more, it is clear that the Iranians are not giving their British prisoners any decent physical exercise. The US military make sure that their Iraqi captives enjoy PT. This takes the form of exciting "stress positions", which the captives are expected to hold for hours on end so as to improve their stomach and calf muscles. A common exercise is where they are made to stand on the balls of their feet and then squat so that their thighs are parallel to the ground. This creates intense pain and, finally, muscle failure. It's all good healthy fun and has the bonus that the captives will confess to anything to get out of it.

And this brings me to my final point. It is clear from her TV appearance that servicewoman Turney has been put under pressure. The newspapers have persuaded behavioural psychologists to examine the footage and they all conclude that she is "unhappy and stressed".

What is so appalling is the underhand way in which the Iranians have got her "unhappy and stressed". She shows no signs of electrocution or burn marks and there are no signs of beating on her face. This is unacceptable. If captives are to be put under duress, such as by forcing them into compromising sexual positions, or having electric shocks to their genitals, they should be photographed, as they were in Abu Ghraib. The photographs should then be circulated around the civilised world so that everyone can see exactly what has been going on.

As Stephen Glover pointed out in the Daily Mail, perhaps it would not be right to bomb Iran in retaliation for the humiliation of our servicemen, but clearly the Iranian people must be made to suffer - whether by beefing up sanctions, as the Mail suggests, or simply by getting President Bush to hurry up and invade, as he intends to anyway, and bring democracy and western values to the country, as he has in Iraq.

· Terry Jones is a film director, actor and Python
www.terry-jones.net

[cantnokdahustle]

Not novel or even particularly well executed satire, but basically states the obvious.

[captainhampton]

Fucking brilliant. (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2047110,00.html)

what's brilliant about trying to make a hostage situation not seem like a big deal?

[captainhampton]

And the way a "civilised" society treats prisoners in Guatanemo isnt serious??

You people are disgusting.
let's keep this focused on the British and Iran situation. start a new thread if you want to talk about the US treatment of prisoners. you are from the UK, what do you want to be done with this whole situation?

[Jason Tate]

let's keep this focused on the British and Iran situation. start a new thread if you want to talk about the US treatment of prisoners. you are from the UK, what do you want to be done with this whole situation?
This thread isn't about the British and Iran situation ... it's about this op-ed piece which includes many references to the US treatment of prisoners.

[captainhampton]

This thread isn't about the British and Iran situation ... it's about this op-ed piece which includes many references to the US treatment of prisoners.

alright fine. how is this piece brilliant? it makes the whole British/Iran deal seem like not a big deal. makes it seem like the Iranians are treating the hostages nice.

[cfear]

I love the Guardian. I read it online every fucking day. So many good editorials. The one George Monibot did a week or so ago, about bio fuels, was great.

[atticus1492]

alright fine. how is this piece brilliant? it makes the whole British/Iran deal seem like not a big deal. makes it seem like the Iranians are treating the hostages nice.

Are they not? :shrug:

[captainhampton]

Are they not? :shrug:

none of us know. we don't see what goes on.

[Sleepaway]

I don't like the Guardian at all, its too left wing, however I see the point the guy is trying to make.

[Jason Tate]

none of us know. we don't see what goes on.
Isn't the point being made that we know what is going on?

[thejetstolehome]

alright fine. how is this piece brilliant? it makes the whole British/Iran deal seem like not a big deal. makes it seem like the Iranians are treating the hostages nice.

i don't think it's trying to make light of the situation but merely satarize.

[x togepi x]

alright fine. how is this piece brilliant? it makes the whole British/Iran deal seem like not a big deal. makes it seem like the Iranians are treating the hostages nice.

compared to how we treat our POWs in the War on Terror, it isn't a big deal.

[captainhampton]

compared to how we treat our POWs in the War on Terror, it isn't a big deal.

neither of us see how the US or Iran treat their POWs, so we don't know. I'd guess that Iran treats theirs much worse than we do. just my opinion though.

[aminorthreat55]

what's brilliant about trying to make a hostage situation not seem like a big deal?
What's brilliant about Newt Gingrich. I figured with your low standards you'd at least agree with me on that part, but maybe not.

[thejetstolehome]

neither of us see how the US or Iran treat their POWs, so we don't know. I'd guess that Iran treats theirs much worse than we do. just my opinion though.

http://villagevoice.com/blogs/bushbeat/archive/images/hooded-prisoner-abu-ghraib-.jpg

http://rwor.org/a/1242/images/abu-ghraib-pyramid.jpg

yup, we treat POWs excellently.

[aminorthreat55]

neither of us see how the US or Iran treat their POWs, so we don't know. I'd guess that Iran treats theirs much worse than we do. just my opinion though.
Your opinion is wrong. Do you even read any real news sources? Abu Ghraib (http://www.salon.com/news/abu_ghraib/2006/03/14/introduction/) right a bell? How about Jose Padilla (http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2007/02/federal-judge-rules-padilla-military.php)? Or those several dozen missing people (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/02/26/usint15408.htm)?

[aminorthreat55]

alright fine. how is this piece brilliant? it makes the whole British/Iran deal seem like not a big deal. makes it seem like the Iranians are treating the hostages nice.
Well let's think about this, we've held hundreds (possibly over a thousand) people, many of whom have not committed any crime, for an indefinite amount of time, outside of any semblance of a fair legal system. Iran captured 15 sailors who were trespassing in foreign waters. This article makes it painfully obvious how hypocritical the American response to this incident is.

Basically what it boils down to is that it makes you a hypocrit.

[x togepi x]

neither of us see how the US or Iran treat their POWs, so we don't know. I'd guess that Iran treats theirs much worse than we do. just my opinion though.

Actually, I had the guy who ran Guantanamo Bay from 2002-2005 give a detailed explanation of how they treat the prisoners there to my international relations class and from his analysis i've decided that its human rights abuse.

[captainhampton]

Your opinion is wrong. Do you even read any real news sources? Abu Ghraib (http://www.salon.com/news/abu_ghraib/2006/03/14/introduction/) right a bell? How about Jose Padilla (http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2007/02/federal-judge-rules-padilla-military.php)? Or those several dozen missing people (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/02/26/usint15408.htm)?

do you really want to talk about human rights with the US and Iran? seriously, do you know anything about Iran and how people are treated there? or are you gonna sit here and act like it is the US who doesn't treat people right? there are occasions like the one you listed like Abu Ghraib where it was our fault and those people should be punished for those crimes. so you see some pictures where it shows that they aren't treating the Brits so bad. well then, of course they treat their prisoners better than us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Iran

[captainhampton]

http://www.derechos.org/human-rights/mena/iran.html

"Twenty years after the "Islamic Revolution" the human rights situation in Iran remains poor. The Government restricts citizens' right to change their government, manipulates the electoral system and represses political dissidents. . Systematic abuses include extrajudicial killings and summary executions; disappearances; widespread use of torture and other degrading treatment; harsh prison conditions; arbitrary arrest and detention; lack of due process; unfair trials; infringement on citizens' privacy; and restrictions on freedom of speech, press, assembly, association, religion, and movement. Religious minorities, in particular Baha'is, have come under increasing repression by conservative elements of the judiciary and security establishment. The Government restricts the work of human rights groups. Women face legal and social discrimination, and violence against women occurs."

[captainhampton]

Iran leads the world in the execution of juveniles. These executions often follow secret trials that fail to meet minimum international standards. For example, in July 2006, an Iranian court sentenced 10 men to death following a one-day trial, all of whom have since been executed. The authorities also intensified their harassment of human rights defenders and lawyers in 2006, including declaring illegal the Center for Defense of Human Rights, led by Shirin Ebadi, the 2003 Nobel Peace Prize winner. Iranians detained for peaceful expression of political views have been subjected to torture and ill-treatment, and two prisoners held for their political beliefs died in prison under suspicious circumstances in 2006.

[captainhampton]

“I was held in solitary confinement in a secret prison for 86 days,” Rafizadeh told Human Rights Watch. “My cell measured barely 5 feet by 6 feet. The magistrate, Mr. Mehdipoor, was present in the detention center. He threatened me with execution if I didn’t confess to what he dictated. He told the interrogator, known as Mr. Keshavarz, he can do whatever he wants to me, such as ‘peeling the skin off my head.’ The interrogator beat me mercilessly while I was handcuffed and blindfolded. Interrogations continued under these circumstances for more than 40 days.”

Another former detainee, Mirebrahimi, told Human Rights Watch: “After 60 days of solitary confinement and ill-treatment, the interrogator informed me that I will be released if I sign a confession letter and publicly release it. One day after my release, I was summoned by Mr. Mortazavi’s office and he told me: ‘The release of your friends is dependent on publishing your confession letter. If you don’t do it, not only will they not be released, but we will put you back in prison.’ I was forced to send the confession letter, which Mortazavi dictated, to the news agencies.”

Memarian told Human Rights Watch that during their meeting with the head of Judiciary, Ayatollah Shahrudi told them “confessions in prison without the presence of your lawyers are not valid.”

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/12/12/iran14824.htm

[cfear]

It's legal to execute individuals under the age of 18 in the US. Just sayin'.

[captainhampton]

aminorthreat: I can go on and on.

[captainhampton]

IRAN
Torture and ill-treatment in detention, including indefinite solitary confinement, are routinely used to punish dissidents in Iran (http://hrw.org/reports/2004/iran0604/). Torture is often carried out in illegal and secret prisons and interrogation centers run by intelligence services, and has been used particularly against those imprisoned for peaceful expression of their political views.

The use of prolonged solitary confinement, often in small basement cells, has been designed to break the will of those detained in order to coerce confessions and provide information regarding associates. Combined with denial of access to counsel and videotaped confessions, prolonged solitary confinement creates an environment in which prisoners have nowhere to turn in order to seek redress for their treatment in detention. Severe physical torture is also used, especially against student activists and others who do not enjoy the high public profile of older dissident intellectuals and writers.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/04/27/china10549.htm


this one is a good read, if you notice aminorthreat, the US is not on this list.

[captainhampton]

Iran: Judiciary Uses Coercion to Cover Up Torture

On National TV, Journalists Forced to Deny They Were Tortured





Since September, more than 20 internet journalists and civil society activists have been arrested and held in a secret detention center in Tehran. Most have since been released on bail. In a public letter to President Mohammed Khatami on December 10, the father of one of those detained, Ali Mazroi—who is also president of the Association of Iranian Journalists and a former member of parliament—implicated the judiciary in the torture and secret detention of the detainees.

Immediately afterwards, the chief prosecutor of Tehran, Judge Saeed Mortazavi, filed charges against Mazroi for libel. On December 11, Mortazavi ordered the detention of three of the released detainees—Omid Memarian, Shahram Rafizadeh and Ruzbeh Mir Ebrahimi—as witnesses for the prosecution in the case. These three journalists and Javad Gholam Tamayomi, a journalist who has been in detention since October 18, were brought to Mortazavi’s office.

Mortazavi threatened the four detainees with lengthy prison sentences if they did not deny Mazroi’s allegations. They were interrogated for three consecutive days for eight hours each day.

On December 14, the four detainees were brought in front of a televised “press conference” arranged by Judge Mortazavi, and forced to deny that they had been subjected to solitary confinement, torture and ill-treatment during their earlier detention. That evening, Iran’s government-controlled television news broadcast videotapes that showed the four detainees saying that their jailors treated them as “gently as flowers.”

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/12/17/iran9913.htm

[captainhampton]

no but we're the bad guys because Terrorists, people who are willing to kill innocent Americans, aren't getting due process.

[cfear]

IRAN
Torture and ill-treatment in detention, including indefinite solitary confinement, are routinely used to punish dissidents in Iran (http://hrw.org/reports/2004/iran0604/). Torture is often carried out in illegal and secret prisons and interrogation centers run by intelligence services, and has been used particularly against those imprisoned for peaceful expression of their political views.

The use of prolonged solitary confinement, often in small basement cells, has been designed to break the will of those detained in order to coerce confessions and provide information regarding associates. Combined with denial of access to counsel and videotaped confessions, prolonged solitary confinement creates an environment in which prisoners have nowhere to turn in order to seek redress for their treatment in detention. Severe physical torture is also used, especially against student activists and others who do not enjoy the high public profile of older dissident intellectuals and writers.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/04/27/china10549.htm


this one is a good read, if you notice aminorthreat, the US is not on this list.

The United States supports a few of those states. Israel gets unconditional support. The US is mentioned under the entry for Iraq, but you can't forget that the Iraqi Government is supported by the US Government. Egypt is one of the many countries we export prisoners to, so that those prisoners can be tortured.

Don't be an idiot and read only what you want to read. Every country on the planet is corrupt, and every country does bad shit. The US isn't exempt from that. Don't let the US-centric world view you believe cloud your judgment. Too many people let that happen, and it's part of the reason the US is not the best country in the world.

[x togepi x]

no but we're the bad guys because Terrorists, people who are willing to kill innocent Americans, aren't getting due process.

You're missing the point. All human rights violations are bad, Iranian or US. It's interesting since if you were Iranian, your logic would be DAMN THE US FOR GITMO YAY KEEPING THE 15 PRISONERS.

Either you accept that it's all bad, or people can justify all of Iran's human rights abuses.

You even ignore the fact that a large portion of people in gitmo aren't terrorists and were just picked up in random sweeps by northern alliance members paid to bring in as many people as they could.

[captainhampton]

The United States supports a few of those states. Israel gets unconditional support. The US is mentioned under the entry for Iraq, but you can't forget that the Iraqi Government is supported by the US Government. Egypt is one of the many countries we export prisoners to, so that those prisoners can be tortured.

Don't be an idiot and read only what you want to read. Every country on the planet is corrupt, and every country does bad shit. The US isn't exempt from that. Don't let the US-centric world view you believe cloud your judgment. Too many people let that happen, and it's part of the reason the US is not the best country in the world.

you are right, we are not exempt from that. but this is just for comparison between treatment of people and prisoners in the US and Iran. We are far from perfect, but Iran is just on whole different level.

[captainhampton]

You're missing the point. All human rights violations are bad, Iranian or US. It's interesting since if you were Iranian, your logic would be DAMN THE US FOR GITMO YAY KEEPING THE 15 PRISONERS.

Either you accept that it's all bad, or people can justify all of Iran's human rights abuses.

You even ignore the fact that a large portion of people in gitmo aren't terrorists and were just picked up in random sweeps by northern alliance members paid to bring in as many people as they could.

look i won't criticize you and others so much if you occasionally admitted that Iran is wrong with how they treat people.

and with Gitmo, maybe you are right about people being held with no reason, but i'd be willing to bet that most the people there aren't so innocent.

[cfear]

look i won't criticize you and others so much if you occasionally admitted that Iran is wrong with how they treat people.

and with Gitmo, maybe you are right about people being held with no reason, but i'd be willing to bet that most the people there aren't so innocent.

Because they're Arab/Muslim?

[captainhampton]

Because they're Arab/Muslim?

because they have connections to terrorists.

[captainhampton]

df-uN5Cjg-0

[cfear]

The Heritage Fund on a Pentagon sponsored trip? Expectation of accuracy? ROFLMAO. I used internet slang. That's how hilarious I found that.

[captainhampton]

The Heritage Fund on a Pentagon sponsored trip? Expectation of accuracy? ROFLMAO. I used internet slang. That's how hilarious I found that.

have you been there?

[aminorthreat55]

aminorthreat: I can go on and on.
Thanks for wasting your own time. The point isn't that Iran does this, we all know that. The point is that the policies and opinions presented and executed by this administration and supported much of the general public are hypocritical in that they support, while to a lesser degree, the exact types of programs that we detest whenever it happens to our own people. For goodness sake, we've been accused of doing it to our own fucking citizens! Open your fucking eyes.
http://www.derechos.org/human-rights/mena/iran.html

"Twenty years after the "Islamic Revolution" the human rights situation in Iran remains poor. The Government restricts citizens' right to change their government, manipulates the electoral system and represses political dissidents. . Systematic abuses include extrajudicial killings and summary executions; disappearances; widespread use of torture and other degrading treatment; harsh prison conditions; arbitrary arrest and detention; lack of due process; unfair trials; infringement on citizens' privacy; and restrictions on freedom of speech, press, assembly, association, religion, and movement. Religious minorities, in particular Baha'is, have come under increasing repression by conservative elements of the judiciary and security establishment. The Government restricts the work of human rights groups. Women face legal and social discrimination, and violence against women occurs."
My point isn't that Iran doesn't do those things, it is that we do more than half of the things on that list, and then complain when another country does it to our citizens while we turn a blind eye when the roles are reversed.
look i won't criticize you and others so much if you occasionally admitted that Iran is wrong with how they treat people.

and with Gitmo, maybe you are right about people being held with no reason, but i'd be willing to bet that most the people there aren't so innocent.
because they have connections to terrorists.
This has not been proven for the vast majority of detainees. The detainment of the majority of the people currently in Gitmo has no legal basis and some of the allegations do not even constitute crimes under the law of the United States. Furthermore, detainees are being held indefinitely for crimes they committed prior to and not related to September 11th, which is in violation of the United States government's jurisdictional right to detain indefinitely. Anyone who committed a "crime" prior to and not related to September 11th must be arraigned and tried under due process of law, while only those who supposedly committed crimes during the times of war can be held indefinitely at Gitmo during a period of war.

[captainhampton]

"I'd guess that Iran treats theirs much worse than we do. just my opinion though."

you said I was wrong. this is not the case, that is why i posted all those examples.

[aminorthreat55]

"I'd guess that Iran treats theirs much worse than we do. just my opinion though."

you said I was wrong. this is not the case, that is why i posted all those examples.
I was referring to the first part of the quote regarding the U.S.'s treatment of detainees (which you didn't quote in this post). Iran is self-explanatory.

[thejetstolehome]

because they have connections to terrorists.

then why have most of them not been formally charged or tried with anything?

[Jason Tate]

no but we're the bad guys because Terrorists, people who are willing to kill innocent Americans, aren't getting due process.
They deserve due process. That's what separates "us" from "them."

[Jason Tate]

because they have connections to terrorists.
:wallbash:

[cfear]

Well...looks like Iran is letting the Brits go.

[aminorthreat55]

Well...looks like Iran is letting the Brits go.
Good, now if only we would follow suit.