School Shootings

[thisisadisaster]

after hearing the news of the virginia tech school shooting, i thought i would try to start a discussion of school shootings. what drives a person to kill their friends, teachers, and many complete strangers? is it ever justified?

we have all been effected by school shootings. i remember when i was real young, hearing the news of a school shooting in jonesboro, the town i now live in, at westside middle school. i remember not knowing what a school shooting was and being confused about how someone could do such a thing. only a short time later, the columbine tragedy occured and it has seemed like a constant stream of school shootings ever since.

we have all been in a classroom at some point and time and looked at a kid in class being picked on. we have all wondered if that kid would go to such lengths to take revenge. we have all been afraid at times that something like this could happen. i think its safe to say many of us have attended schools where a hitlist surfaced. we have all been touched by this, and it can happen anywhere.

please, if you ever get to the point where you might consider something even remotely like this, please talk to your friends or family and try to get some help. if you cant trust them, turn to your teachers, a church official, or even professional help. and if you feel you have noone else to talk to, you can always pm me. ill listen to any problem, no matter how big or small, and ill try my best to help you out. im here for you guys no matter what. i love you all.

[Mercy Medical]

Here's another good question on this topic, what do you think the proper punishment for the shooters should be (that being if they get out of it alive)?

I've overheard discussions in my office today that went somewhere along the lines of "killing the person isn't enough..."

[Shatter590]

i remember post-columbine, the school turned into a fortress. tho we had never had school shootings, or even violence in general, suddenly anyone who wore black was required to get psychological counseling. it was an overboard response, to be sure.

[thatwasamoment]

some people are just greedy, and don't think of the repercussions of killing others. its truly sad.

[and we whisper]

Last year we had a hitlist surface and the girl who wrote it just got suspended because she claimed it was a game that she made up with her sister. that shit isn't a game...it was a hitlist. People aren't really too mean to this girl, she just has a huge anger problem.
as far as punishments go I don't believe in the death penalty and I don't think they should get as much punishment as other crimes (such as child molesters) but i do think, depending on what age this person is, they should be treated harshly. I mean, if it's a 7 yr. old kid, do you think they honestly know what they're doing, and if they do then they need to start therapy right away to see what caused this. but if it's a teenager, they know what they are doing and should be put in jail for this. just because they've had a few bad days doesn't give them the right to come and kill people who they blame for it. it's no excuse. people need to learn to control their anger and deal with it as it comes instead of letting it build up...

[deapcutz]

If you can just kill someone like that then there is something truely wrong and it should be resolved before it reaches the point of death.

[thisisadisaster]

Here's another good question on this topic, what do you think the proper punishment for the shooters should be (that being if they get out of it alive)?

I've overheard discussions in my office today that went somewhere along the lines of "killing the person isn't enough..."

i think spending the rest of your life in prision is enough. i dont want to get into a case whether the death penilty is acceptable or not, but life in prision would suffice me for one reason.

before columbine there was a school shooting at westside middle school in jonesboro where i now live. the laws on the book at that point and time said a minor must be charged as a minor. therefore, the punishment could not be tried for life or death because they were only being punished until they were 18.

so on their 18th birthdays, those bastards walked right on the street with new identities to protect them.

thats bullshit.

i remember post-columbine, the school turned into a fortress. tho we had never had school shootings, or even violence in general, suddenly anyone who wore black was required to get psychological counseling. it was an overboard response, to be sure.

exactly. we stay in constant fear, yet theres nothing that can truely be done to stop something like this from happening. if theres a will theres a way. you cant put metal dectors on a college campus, and you cant just assume because someone looks different they are going to do such a thing.

the only way is to completely change a constitutional right. and if you do that you could open up a world of possibilities.

[Shatter590]

i think spending the rest of your life in prision is enough. i dont want to get into a case whether the death penilty is acceptable or not, but life in prision would suffice me for one reason.

before columbine there was a school shooting at westside middle school in jonesboro where i now live. the laws on the book at that point and time said a minor must be charged as a minor. therefore, the punishment could not be tried for life or death because they were only being punished until they were 18.

so on their 18th birthdays, those bastards walked right on the street with new identities to protect them.

thats bullshit.



exactly. we stay in constant fear, yet theres nothing that can truely be done to stop something like this from happening. if theres a will theres a way. you cant put metal dectors on a college campus, and you cant just assume because someone looks different they are going to do such a thing.

the only way is to completely change a constitutional right. and if you do that you could open up a world of possibilities.

or you could just not live in fear. this is the same as terrorism, it happens, its tragic, but you cant live your life fearing it.

[thisisadisaster]

or you could just not live in fear. this is the same as terrorism, it happens, its tragic, but you cant live your life fearing it.

very true. its one of those frustraiting things that in all honesty, you can do very little if anything to prevent.

[theguilt engine]

i really wish i could tell what drives people to hurt others...in more general terms. If things are so hard for you, it's probably something that you are doing, and it's the person you are and the way you're treat people and they way you treat certain situations that puts you into a state of unhappiness.

[Shatter590]

very true. its one of those frustraiting things that in all honesty, you can do very little if anything to prevent.

thats why you shouldnt let it get to you. its like death and taxes, you cant change it, so dont worry over it.

[Iamhome]

If everyone was just nice to each other this would never happen.

Well, if everyone truly wanted peace. (that will never happen)

[thisisadisaster]

thats why you shouldnt let it get to you. its like death and taxes, you cant change it, so dont worry over it.

i try not to. its just one of those things that kind hit close to home.

i dont live in fear or anything like that, but i do think its really healthy to talk about everything and get everyones feelings on the matter.

[DeathCabForCoon]

Yeah I can hardly understand why something like this would happen at a big school like VT. In high school its easy to get alienated and cast as an outsider. But at a university there are so many people from so many different walks of life that it is next to impossible to not find a niche where you fit in.

I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't motivated by the conventional "he was an outcast, a loner etc." but for other reasons.

It's still pretty horrible, everyone in my class right now is on CNN.com reading about it...Except for the girl in front of me who's playing the Oregon Trail...

[DeathCabForCoon]

If everyone was just nice to each other this would never happen.

Well, if everyone truly wanted peace. (that will never happen)


Even so it would still happen. There are an infinite number of variables that could cause someone to do this. I'm afraid that it will always be around.

[thisisadisaster]

i didnt know people still played oregon trail....

ya thats the thing. a school shooting on a college campus is going to be mostly strangers. i go to a fairly small college, and i honestly dont see that many people i know. i just dont understand the mental state for something like this at all.

[Logan95]

A Quote from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:
"Everyone is saying that there was this guy who went there and shot his girlfriend and then shot the [residence assistant] who stepped in and reacted to the shooting," Mr. Dillie said.


What a surprise, there was a girlfriend involved.

Also, ABC news is confirming 29 dead with more expected.

[Shatter590]

That is such typical America, find yourself a scape goat and do nothing about the root of the problem.

You see it everywhere; war on drugs, war on terror etc..

passing the buck is our national pastime. dont criticize the parents, the kids, the people: blame the media, blame music, blame video games, etc etc etc. its easier that way


i try not to. its just one of those things that kind hit close to home.

i dont live in fear or anything like that, but i do think its really healthy to talk about everything and get everyones feelings on the matter.

yeah, it helps. after 9/11 there was a lot of that. i honestly think that NYC got over it faster than the rest of the country did

[thisisadisaster]

yeah, it helps. after 9/11 there was a lot of that. i honestly think that NYC got over it faster than the rest of the country did

i wouldnt doubt it. i think part of the country just likes to hold on to something to be angry about, while other parts are just overly sensitive and take things really hard.

i like to think that ive for lack of better words moved on from 9/11, but still when i see the footage i get a lump in my throat.

[Shatter590]

i wouldnt doubt it. i think part of the country just likes to hold on to something to be angry about, while other parts are just overly sensitive and take things really hard.

i like to think that ive for lack of better words moved on from 9/11, but still when i see the footage i get a lump in my throat.

i hear that a lot. but for me...well, i saw it happen, i saw the cloud that was there for 8 months, i smelled that awful odor for 3 weeks, and still...life goes on. no need to be scared about it, it happened.

[thisisadisaster]

i hear that a lot. but for me...well, i saw it happen, i saw the cloud that was there for 8 months, i smelled that awful odor for 3 weeks, and still...life goes on. no need to be scared about it, it happened.

thats so crazy. its just amazing the world we live in and what people are willing to do.

but at the same time, there are some great, amazing people in this world.

[Shatter590]

thats so crazy. its just amazing the world we live in and what people are willing to do.

but at the same time, there are some great, amazing people in this world.

the upside and downside to humanity. for every asshole theres someone great. karmic balance, yada yada yada lol

[Logan95]

The papers are saying that the shooter used two 9mm handguns, so I’m sure this is going to reignite the gun control arguments.

[RememberFminus2]

i go to virginia tech and have been suffering through my first detection of clinical depression and today this happened and this year is just seeming impossible to get through

[thisisadisaster]

the upside and downside to humanity. for every asshole theres someone great. karmic balance, yada yada yada lol

very true.

just like for every day something tragic happens, a day goes by that nothing horrific happens.

[Shatter590]

The government takes advantage of the general idiocy of the populace and instead of accepting the blame or god forbid actually doing anything they simply peddle a load of easy anwers, they arrest and or kill someone and were back where we started.

its because people dont like to take the blame. theres no personal accountability, so you look for something that cant defend itself to place the blame on. a "patsy" if you will.

[thisisadisaster]

i go to virginia tech and have been suffering through my first detection of clinical depression and today this happened and this year is just seeming impossible to get through

i know that we dont really know each other, but dude any time you need to talk seriously im here for you. you can always send me a pm or contact me in any way and ill listen to you and see if i have any advise.

just last week i realized how badly i suffer from depression. ive always been depressed, but refused to believe i suffered from depression. i sorta know what youre going through, and im here to help if you need it.

[RememberFminus2]

i know that we dont really know each other, but dude any time you need to talk seriously im here for you. you can always send me a pm or contact me in any way and ill listen to you and see if i have any advise.

just last week i realized how badly i suffer from depression. ive always been depressed, but refused to believe i suffered from depression. i sorta know what youre going through, and im here to help if you need it.


thanks dude, whats your name? my names zoey (yeah im a dude, blame my mom). anyways yeah ive been the same way i didnt believe it before but its gotten bad enough that its changing my life. now things like this happen and everything just seems to hard.

[thisisadisaster]

thanks dude, whats your name? my names zoey (yeah im a dude, blame my mom). anyways yeah ive been the same way i didnt believe it before but its gotten bad enough that its changing my life. now things like this happen and everything just seems to hard.

im wade. ya ive known for a long time i was depressed, but i was in denial about it. i came to terms with it next week, and once school is out im going to look for some professional help with it.

we will get through it with time. i seriously hate this for you and everyone involved.

i dont know if you are a religious or not, and im honestly not very religous at all, but ill keep you in my prayers.

and seriously anytime you need to talk, pm me on here or send me a myspace message or catch me on aim or msn.

[Shatter590]

im wade. ya ive known for a long time i was depressed, but i was in denial about it. i came to terms with it next week, and once school is out im going to look for some professional help with it.

we will get through it with time. i seriously hate this for you and everyone involved.

i dont know if you are a religious or not, and im honestly not very religous at all, but ill keep you in my prayers.

and seriously anytime you need to talk, pm me on here or send me a myspace message or catch me on aim or msn.

wade, you are one remarkable individual

[Iamhome]

Even so it would still happen. There are an infinite number of variables that could cause someone to do this. I'm afraid that it will always be around.

I'm sure it will always be around. There is always a competition for something. There are always root causes. There is always greed, hate, jealousy, and everything else that causes someone to want to hurt another. The point is trying to get rid of those things - but that wont ever happen.

[thisisadisaster]

wade, you are one remarkable individual

thanks. that really means alot.

[RememberFminus2]

im wade. ya ive known for a long time i was depressed, but i was in denial about it. i came to terms with it next week, and once school is out im going to look for some professional help with it.

we will get through it with time. i seriously hate this for you and everyone involved.

i dont know if you are a religious or not, and im honestly not very religous at all, but ill keep you in my prayers.

and seriously anytime you need to talk, pm me on here or send me a myspace message or catch me on aim or msn.


you are a good man and it goes both ways dude

[Shatter590]

thanks. that really means alot.

i call it like i see it ;p

[thisisadisaster]

you are a good man and it goes both ways dude

i call it like i see it ;p

thanks guys.

*group hug*

im such an emotional case today.

now im in my super sensitive stage.

[Shatter590]

thanks guys.

*group hug*

im such an emotional case today.

now im in my super sensitive stage.



*group hug*

who says manly men cant also be sensitive

[WingDings]

I always thought it was either boredom, insanity or a general disgust at the world around them.
The ironic thing is everyone feels like that at some point, we just don't all go shooting our schools up to prove it.
I read an interview in which Chuck Fight Club Palahnuik was saying these boys (and it's always boys) did it (Columbine) because they had realised how vapid the American Dream is, they didn't want that life and knew that there was a very minute chance of escaping it.
It's kind of ignorant to say that "It wouldn't have happened if they were French!" but these shootings are so distinctly American it's hard to escape that fact.

[thisisadisaster]

*group hug*

who says manly men cant also be sensitive

terrorists.

and bradley hathaway.

I always thought it was either boredom, insanity or a general disgust at the world around them.
The ironic thing is everyone feels like that at some point, we just don't all go shooting our schools up to prove it.
I read an interview in which Chuck Fight Club Palahnuik was saying these boys (and it's always boys) did it (Columbine) because they had realised how vapid the American Dream is, they didn't want that life and knew that there was a very minute chance of escaping it.
It's kind of ignorant to say that "It wouldn't have happened if they were French!" but these shootings are so distinctly American it's hard to escape that fact.

i think it really does raise an interesting question when you point out that this is for the most part an american epidemic.

[WingDings]

I don't think it's happened anywhere else. Horrible things commited by teens go in Britain but it's never that senseless.

[youcomebeforeyo]

All I can say is there is something seriously wrong with the gun culture/culture in general of society in the USA. It's easy to purchase weapons here in New Zealand yet we have had one mass shooting in our nations history.

Gun control isn't the issue, something in society is. It's just saddening.

[music3chick]

Yeah I can hardly understand why something like this would happen at a big school like VT. In high school its easy to get alienated and cast as an outsider. But at a university there are so many people from so many different walks of life that it is next to impossible to not find a niche where you fit in.

I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't motivated by the conventional "he was an outcast, a loner etc." but for other reasons.

It's still pretty horrible, everyone in my class right now is on CNN.com reading about it...Except for the girl in front of me who's playing the Oregon Trail...


That's what I figured. But after talking to my mom, she said that the stress of college could take a toll, so I guess that could be another reason.

[Spewk]

i have a problem with the kids who kill everyone then kill themselves. while im not condoning suicide by any means, if your going to take your own life, why hurt others in the process?

[xjohnx]

Because he intended to kill his ex-girlfriend, that was his primary goal and killing himself was a necessity of this.


on a smalller scale have you ever been pissed at someone and punched a wall or lashed out at the closest person? thats what this guy did on a much larger field, this seems to have been a premeditated action, i.e kill the girlfriend and whoever she is with, the bit that people seem baffled by is that he had to kill all those other non related people lets put it this way if he thought he was justified in killing two people for his hurt then he musn't have been playing with a full deck anyways people should stop trying to analize the actions of someone who was pretty obvioudsly messed up.
i believe most of these shooters who go on these sprees only kill themselves because once the severity of what they've done hits them when the red mist clears they are scared of what will happen to them next.

[xjohnx]

I agree although maybe some of them plan to kill themselves in advance. It would seem seen as that is the most likely outcome of doing what he did, they would of thought about it at least.

Its interesting how we never have any survivors so we can quiz them on why they did what they did.


Exactly but think about it would they get a fair trial or treated as a normal inmate in prison. seeing as though these crimes are usually commited in america maybe its a good thing that they do kill themselves as at least that way they can't have the luxury of a very lengthy trial that will probably end in them being executed anyways or getting off on something like a plee of insanity.

[catscradle]

All I can say is there is something seriously wrong with the gun culture/culture in general of society in the USA. It's easy to purchase weapons here in New Zealand yet we have had one mass shooting in our nations history.

Gun control isn't the issue, something in society is. It's just saddening.

bingo.

[youcomebeforeyo]

Because he intended to kill his ex-girlfriend, that was his primary goal and killing himself was a necessity of this.

News reports said that it wasn't even his ex. Just a girl he was obsessed with.

[TheGhostOfPast]

The point being, bitches make us dudes do crazy shit. We should ban females.

[TheGhostOfPast]

please, if you ever get to the point where you might consider something even remotely like this, please talk to your friends or family and try to get some help. if you cant trust them, turn to your teachers, a church official, or even professional help. and if you feel you have noone else to talk to, you can always pm me. ill listen to any problem, no matter how big or small, and ill try my best to help you out. im here for you guys no matter what. i love you all.


Shut up. Churches spawn half of these loose cannons, what with their anti-sexuality doctrines.

[deadstar]

It amuses me how already America is trying to shift the blame away from itself.

This time because the guy wasn't born it means it has nothing to do with us whilst he lives. Its all those Koreans fault.

Never mind that the guy had been in America since he was and new nothing of his nation of born. The guy was an American, America made him this ways, not on purpose but there is something in American culture which encourages this.

I wonder how many more shootings before America realises this and does something about it?
You're seriously fucking retarded if you're blaming this kid's mental illness on America. Have you seen the kid's videos?

[thejetstolehome]

alright, obviously there is something fucked about or society/its obsession with violence but something tells me this dude would've been fucked in the head regardless of what country he grew up in.

[joeag1985]

I know it sounds very idealistic and stupid in many peoples eyes, but why is it still so important for ordinary American citizens to have the right to bear arms? The United States Military is surely well equipped to deal with any security threat?! I know its easy to say but wouldn't the confiscation and destruction of all firearms currently in the hands of ordinary civilians make your country a much safer place to live in? I can't think of any other country on the planet with such relaxed gun laws and relating gun related massacres... i don't know, you just wish there was an easy solution to shit like this.

[thejetstolehome]

Possibly, although nothing suggests he was that way before entering America.

Additionally his ability to easilly obtain weapons allowed his infactuation with violence to grow and when he finally went over edge he handily had a room full of guns to play with.

I wouldnt even say it was America's obsession with violence because British people play all the same video games, watch the same movies etc..

i agree with you on the second point about the ability to obtain guns; but we can't blame movies, we can't blame music, we can't blame video games, we can't blame just the culture and society in whole--we have to blame the crazy fucker who pulled the trigger and whatever was ailing him.

[thisisadisaster]

Shut up. Churches spawn half of these loose cannons, what with their anti-sexuality doctrines.

so let me get this straight.

i offer MULTIPLE places people can look for help and even myself if they hit rock bottom, and you tell me to shut up because of one of my suggestions?

despite whatever you believe, some people do turn to the church and do actually get help for their problems. i relize that many churches are fucked up and some do supress people into horrific actions, but i also live in the real world and relize some churches (shocker here) actually do some good from time to time.

way to come into a thread that has nothing to do with religion, find one thing that you disagree with, and showing your immaturity.

ill shut up now.

[youcomebeforeyo]

i agree with you on the second point about the ability to obtain guns; but we can't blame movies, we can't blame music, we can't blame video games, we can't blame just the culture and society in whole--we have to blame the crazy fucker who pulled the trigger and whatever was ailing him.

I think there must be some complex in American society that alienates these youth to an extreme degree. Though this is true across the Western world (look at the high rates of youth suicide across the OECD and last year we had school shootings in Germany) there seems to be something especially potent in the USA.

Possibly this complex mixed with the relative ease of purchasing weapons leads to a higher rate of school shootings in the US while in other countries youth may be forced to look elsewhere.

It's amazing that this guys pshyciatric history didn't even register on the background check at the gun store.

[Justin_stacy]

's amazing that this guys pshyciatric history didn't even register on the background check at the gun store.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting_weapons

[untilyoubelieve]

alright, obviously there is something fucked about or society/its obsession with violence but something tells me this dude would've been fucked in the head regardless of what country he grew up in.

true story.
though a lot has to do with environment and all that, people who are messed up are usually messed up for an internal reason... whether it be self-induced (drugs) or caused by outside influence (parents, abusive relationships)... and they were messed up to being with. you can't take the trailer park out of the trash but you can take the trash out of the trailer park, figuratively speaking.

[thejetstolehome]

You are an idiot.

He moved to America when he was eight. He was not fucked up when he moved as he was a little child. America caused this, it isnt their fault but people are not born this way. He is a product of the American social and cultural enviroment.

Character is a product of your enviroment.

do you understand psychology? most mental health issues don't start showing themselves until adolesence anyway. if he were still in South Korea, these problems would have happened.

[thejetstolehome]

Any evidence?

People are not born murderers.

Sure he may have already developed some issues (possibly) but to claim he still have commited this act in South Korea is pretty far fetched.

evidence? take a psychology class. i'm not sure which disease he had but it was probably some form of depression or extreme anxiety and it's hard to detect those things in an eight year old. while things to which he was introduced here may have contributed to his mental state, they did not completely do it.

i'm not saying he would've done it in South Korea--i'm saying he probably would've had the mental issues.

[thejetstolehome]

If he moved at say 12 i would agree but at 8 he's just a little boy.

I wouldnt say what i was like when i was 8 has had much to do with how i am now. Children that young dont have depression and there is nothing to suggest he did. You're just speculating.

i'm speculating because they didn't name what he had in an article. if they had named what he had, i could look up the symptoms, when they start presenting, etc. mental health issues are things that develop over time, they don't just pop up because you move from country to country.

you're also speculating just as much as i am that it's American culture that made him do what he did. while i will say that definitely played a factor, it is not the only thing to blame.

[thejetstolehome]

But i have evidence American culture causes this.

The fact that 80% maybe more, of school shootings occur in ther United States.

and all of the kids that have done them have had some mental issues. yes, the culture is part of it but it does not deserve all the blame. part of it can definitely be attributed to our culture and society but part of the blame has to go on the people that do the shootings.

[thejetstolehome]

Well yes you couldnt do this without mental issues but it is your culture that encourages mental issues and embraces the idea that violence is an acceptable way to solve problems. This way surpasses what is acceptable of course.

If the colombine killers had lived here i am pretty convinced they would not of done what they did.

but that points to another issue--they wouldn't have becasue, as you've pointed out, they would not have been able to get their hands on the weapons they had. to blame these incidents on one thing is a horrible idea. there isn't one reason why this happend; if there were, it would be caught and, hoepfully, fixed before it became an issue again.

[deadstar]

Well yes you couldnt do this without mental issues but it is your culture that encourages mental issues and embraces the idea that violence is an acceptable way to solve problems. This way surpasses what is acceptable of course.

If the colombine killers had lived here i am pretty convinced they would not of done what they did.
How exactly does the culture encourage mental issues?

[untilyoubelieve]

You are an idiot.

He moved to America when he was eight. He was not fucked up when he moved as he was a little child. America caused this, it isnt their fault but people are not born this way. He is a product of the American social and cultural enviroment.

Character is a product of your enviroment.

why are you so anti-american? i've lived here my entire life and i'm not fucked up enough to go shoot 30 people. give me a break. it has nothing to do with your country or nationality. people in norway burn down chruches. because they're norwegian? uh, no.

[armegeddon]

Nationalities are a human construct and mean nothing at all. There is obviously a reason why 80% of school shootings occur in America, personally i lean towards the gun control argument but am exploring alternatives.

Never at any point have i said everyone in America is this way. It is just a few people but the evidence all points to their being something about America which causes this, be that relaxed gun control laws or some kind of social factor. If you cant see that then you must be very very blind to reality.

With regards to the Church burnings that is entirely different as they are carried out by a collective group rather than isolated individuals. It is also linked to the black metal scene and so where as they are a collective, the school shooters act alone and have no unifying charateristics or view points of the world.

The VTech shooter was a legal immigrant. He was pretty much sick of people making fun of him. America is not the only place in the world where its citizens make fun of others.

And yes, gun control would be very effective here in America (if it ever happened).

What kind of social factor in America do you think would result in school shootings? Just curious.

[deadstar]

I'm not sure you implying this but him being from South Korea did turn him into a killer it was his experiences in America which did that.

I guess its the American school culture. Of segregation from others unlike yourselves, ridicule for those different etc.. coupled with the theme that violence is an acceptable way to solve your problems.

Of course every case is highly specific, but it just way too coincidental that these almost always occur in America.
Yea blame everyone else for not associating with a kid who fucking stalked girls and just wanted attention. If the kid acted like a psycho, why would anyone want to associate with him? We're supposed to be accepting of kids who clearly have mental issues?

[armegeddon]

I'm not sure you implying this but him being from South Korea did turn him into a killer it was his experiences in America which did that.

I guess its the American school culture. Of segregation from others unlike yourselves, ridicule for those different etc.. coupled with the theme that violence is an acceptable way to solve your problems.

Of course every case is highly specific, but it just way too coincidental that these almost always occur in America.

Well, America is bigger than England, has more peoeple, and would more likely have more shootings.
The school culture? I have never been to England, let alone sit in its schools, but what makes American schools so vastly different from other countries' schools? I don't know what you mean whne you say violence to solve problems. I have never seen anyone promote violence.

Yea blame everyone else for not associating with a kid who fucking stalked girls and just wanted attention. If the kid acted like a psycho, why would anyone want to associate with him? We're supposed to be accepting of kids who clearly have mental issues?

He was just kinda weird. No one had much reason to think he was metally insane. It was more in his writings. I agree, though. If someone gives you the wrong vibe, you don't asscoiate with the person.

[armegeddon]

So he had mental issues when he was 8? oh right okay.

People develop these problems as a result of their enviroment.

Why does it have to be the American school environment? Why not his home? All the people could have had fucked up home environments.

[untilyoubelieve]

personally i lean towards the gun control argument but am exploring alternatives.

that's true but true gun control in america will never happen. the right to bear arms is written into the constitution which is a pretty solid argument against it. however, guns don't kill people. people with guns kill people.

[untilyoubelieve]

Why does it have to be the American school environment? Why not his home? All the people could have had fucked up home environments.

i agree with you. though i didn't have the greatest school experience because of my size, it wasn't going to make me hurt the people that said those things because i had a pretty ok homelife.

there are too many factors that have to be combined in order to make a person snap, and probably ALL psychological. you can't blame america, the american school system, or even him for that matter. he just had a psychological imbalance related to his environment and his mental state.

[armegeddon]

i agree with you. though i didn't have the greatest school experience because of my size, it wasn't going to make me hurt the people that said those things because i had a pretty ok homelife.

there are too many factors that have to be combined in order to make a person snap, and probably ALL psychological. you can't blame america, the american school system, or even him for that matter. he just had a psychological imbalance related to his environment and his mental state.

And I agree with you.

I do have a question, though. If he was mentally ill, how could he think and plan the massacre?

[untilyoubelieve]

And I agree with you.

I do have a question, though. If he was mentally ill, how could he think and plan the massacre?

he wasn't mentally retarded, just manic depressive or some other type of psychosis. you can be a fully functional member of society with extreme depression, you just have to be able to control yourself. and he seems to have gotten to the point where he could no longer do that.

[armegeddon]

he wasn't mentally retarded, just manic depressive or some other type of psychosis. you can be a fully functional member of society with extreme depression, you just have to be able to control yourself. and he seems to have gotten to the point where he could no longer do that.

Okay, thanks. Got it.

[untilyoubelieve]

Okay, thanks. Got it.

haha sarcasm?

[armegeddon]

haha sarcasm?

No....it was sincere

[youcomebeforeyo]

i agree with you. though i didn't have the greatest school experience because of my size, it wasn't going to make me hurt the people that said those things because i had a pretty ok homelife.

there are too many factors that have to be combined in order to make a person snap, and probably ALL psychological. you can't blame america, the american school system, or even him for that matter. he just had a psychological imbalance related to his environment and his mental state.

I'm going to take what I posted the page before and put it in again.

I think there must be some complex in American society that alienates these youth to an extreme degree. Though this is true across the Western world (look at the high rates of youth suicide across the OECD and last year we had school shootings in Germany) there seems to be something especially potent in the USA. As someone already pointed out, 80% of school shootings occur in a region with less than 5% of the world population.

Possibly this complex mixed with the relative ease of purchasing weapons leads to a higher rate of school shootings in the US while in other countries youth may be forced to look elsewhere.

Psychological factors are often directly related to the society one lives in. Why does the west have such giant rates of eating disorders? Because the society and culture we've adapted is one of unreasonable expectation and beauty. This is one example of a psyc factor related directely to a society. So no the USA didn't cause this killing but it is a fair assumption to make that the psychiatric problems Cho experienced were probably influenced and amplified by compelx within American society.

And even if they weren't American society still led to him being able to purchase a weapon far easier than in many other Western societies. Living in New Zealand I know the complete difference and extent of gun laws.

[hopeforthebest]

Why does it have to be the American school environment? Why not his home? All the people could have had fucked up home environments.

Because he was teased in school and not at home. A lot of people overlook bullying in school nowadays and i think it's a social issue that should be addressed in the media as teachers do nothing to help kids getting picked on in school. It's only a matter of time before someone just bursts.

but this is imo and it's not the only factor that caused the school shooting

[untilyoubelieve]

And people without guns dont kill people.

it makes it a little more difficult. there's always cars, crowbars, 'concrete shoes'... but those are either mostly accidents or the creativity can make it a little more legit. haha. if you have to use a gun, you're just a coward.

[untilyoubelieve]

Possibly this complex mixed with the relative ease of purchasing weapons leads to a higher rate of school shootings in the US while in other countries youth may be forced to look elsewhere.

this could result in more 'creative' ways of killing which also end up being more brutal and cruel. a gun is hardly the only thing you can kill a high number of people with. what about all the suicide bombers and people who hijack planes/busses? they are not american, have never lived in american society, aren't doing these acts against americans... those numbers are also pretty high for a pretty low population, am i right?

as far as not being able to easily purchase a gun in other countries, i don't think that's entirely true. sure you can't legitimately buy a gun very easy anywhere else than in america, but having more strict gun laws would open up the black market even wider than it already is. if he wasn't able to get a gun from the store, it would have been just as easy to steal one or buy one from the shady guy around the corner. being able to purchase the gun from the store also provided the police with some extra information given by the guy himself that may not have been so easily available otherwise.

[armegeddon]

Psychological factors are often directly related to the society one lives in. Why does the west have such giant rates of eating disorders? Because the society and culture we've adapted is one of unreasonable expectation and beauty. This is one example of a psyc factor related directely to a society. So no the USA didn't cause this killing but it is a fair assumption to make that the psychiatric problems Cho experienced were probably influenced and amplified by compelx within American society.

And even if they weren't American society still led to him being able to purchase a weapon far easier than in many other Western societies. Living in New Zealand I know the complete difference and extent of gun laws.
But then what in American society was he influenced by?

Because he was teased in school and not at home. A lot of people overlook bullying in school nowadays and i think it's a social issue that should be addressed in the media as teachers do nothing to help kids getting picked on in school. It's only a matter of time before someone just bursts.

but this is imo and it's not the only factor that caused the school shooting

Yeah, I was just pointing out that sometimes your home environment could be just as bad or worse than your school atmosphere.


this could result in more 'creative' ways of killing which also end up being more brutal and cruel. a gun is hardly the only thing you can kill a high number of people with. what about all the suicide bombers and people who hijack planes/busses? they are not american, have never lived in american society, aren't doing these acts against americans... those numbers are also pretty high for a pretty low population, am i right?

as far as not being able to easily purchase a gun in other countries, i don't think that's entirely true. sure you can't legitimately buy a gun very easy anywhere else than in america, but having more strict gun laws would open up the black market even wider than it already is. if he wasn't able to get a gun from the store, it would have been just as easy to steal one or buy one from the shady guy around the corner. being able to purchase the gun from the store also provided the police with some extra information given by the guy himself that may not have been so easily available otherwise.

That's a good point.

[untilyoubelieve]

Couldnt kill thirty people with a knife though could he?

Of course home made explosives may do the job but they are far more hap hazard than a gun and also far more difficult to make. They take preperation, planning etc.. where as with a gun you can kill on the spur of the moment.

if he was a ninja, he could've.


ok, that was a joke.

never forget that there are websites with step-by-step instructions on how to make that stuff. they're not that difficult.

[thejetstolehome]

like i've said a few times--there is not one thing that can take the blame for what happened. it's a combination of a lot of things.

[thejetstolehome]

I've maintained that from the start.

yet all your posts only blame American Culture...

[trindaddy]

like i've said a few times--there is not one thing that can take the blame for what happened. it's a combination of a lot of things.


exactly, some people are trying to put too much blame on gun control issue, or that it's just culture. the guy was already said to be depressed. also, after reading his letters and watching his tapes, i would say it's almost a fair assumption to say that he was in a state of psychosis, and was plain crazy. the access to guns worsened things, but if he really wanted to kill people, he didn't have to even have a gun.

[Tom Good]

exactly, some people are trying to put too much blame on gun control issue, or that it's just culture. the guy was already said to be depressed. also, after reading his letters and watching his tapes, i would say it's almost a fair assumption to say that he was in a state of psychosis, and was plain crazy. the access to guns worsened things, but if he really wanted to kill people, he didn't have to even have a gun.I also just heard that he was autistic, any truth to that? That could explain a lot of things such as his anti social behavior and never looking people directly in the eyes. It could also account for some of his abnormal thoughts.

[bduke13]

I havent read anything in this thread but if you are interesting in why Americans are so violent and school shootings you should watch Bowling for Columbine. Even if you dislike Michael Moore it is still very informative and interesting

[trindaddy]

I also just heard that he was autistic, any truth to that? That could explain a lot of things such as his anti social behavior and never looking people directly in the eyes. It could also account for some of his abnormal thoughts.

i haven't heard that, but it could be a possibility.

[youcomebeforeyo]

That's a good point.

No it wasn't a good point.

Americans commit more school shootings per head than any other country in the world. School shootings against their own people. Iraqi's commit more suicide bombings per head than any other country. Bombings against their own people.

She pointed stupidly obvious examples that cannot be compared.

this could result in more 'creative' ways of killing which also end up being more brutal and cruel. a gun is hardly the only thing you can kill a high number of people with. what about all the suicide bombers and people who hijack planes/busses? they are not american, have never lived in american society, aren't doing these acts against americans... those numbers are also pretty high for a pretty low population, am i right?

as far as not being able to easily purchase a gun in other countries, i don't think that's entirely true. sure you can't legitimately buy a gun very easy anywhere else than in america, but having more strict gun laws would open up the black market even wider than it already is. if he wasn't able to get a gun from the store, it would have been just as easy to steal one or buy one from the shady guy around the corner. being able to purchase the gun from the store also provided the police with some extra information given by the guy himself that may not have been so easily available otherwise.

But are ANY of these suicide bombers doing this in stable social environments? Do we have suicide bombers in American schools? No. Suicide bombers in New Zealand, Australian, English, German, French, Spanish, Austrian, Swedish, Danish, Hungarian, Italian (or any other OECD/Western nation!!!) schools? How can you even compare the two when the societies they come from are POLAR opposities?

And can you show any examples of more brutal and cruel killings? Facts please.

And again. Prove that more strict gun laws equal a larger black market. Brazil has some of the most lax gun laws in the world and has the highest rate of illegal gun crime in the Americas. That in itself speaks against your point. Honduras, Columbia and El Salvador are more examples of high gun crime rates and easy access to weapons with booming black markets.

You come from a stable home life i'm assuming. Could you REALLY just go out and buy a gun around the corner? I highly doubt it. People like to make out that access to weapons in the US is ridicoulously easily on the black market. I don't believe that for the majority of middle class income earning people in the US this is true. Sure if you live in areas of higher crime or lower income i'm sure it's possible. Cho didn't. He came from middle class Virginia and was a loner. How he would have the connections when he has no friends or aqqauntinces himself, i'm intrigued to hear.

But then what in American society was he influenced by?

Superiority complex in high school socities. Pressure to conform to the American dream. Emphasis on sporting ability and high academia in American schools with little regard for those that don't fit these criteria? America is the number one country in the world and it is a soceity that echo's that belief in everything it does. When you're not at the top you're nothing. That's one complex documented by pretty much every famous playwright and writer in American history. (Of Mice and Men, Death of a Salesman are just a few pieces of literature illustrating the American Dream and it's failure to many).

There's a lot of rhetoric in this thread but the people who believe this man could have commited this exact same crime anywhere in the world haven't detailed one statistic or fact to back up their argument.

I look forward to seeing some.

[PunkDrums182]

I haven't been following this thread, but today my friend texted me and said " Did you go to school yet?" We go to different schools, but apparently her school was in lock down due to a shooting threat, and I guess my school got a threat about wednesday. It doesn't really phase me, because threats are normally nothing, it gets you thinking though, what if?

[Ambulance X]

I havent read anything in this thread but if you are interesting in why Americans are so violent and school shootings you should watch Bowling for Columbine. Even if you dislike Michael Moore it is still very informative and interesting

No. Bowling for Columbine is bullshit. In typical Moore fashion, it's one of the most dishonest documentaries ever.

Part 1:http://youtube.com/watch?v=q50ApLXqo4E

Part 2:http://youtube.com/watch?v=Rh0a7y511T8

Part 3:http://youtube.com/watch?v=zI_AYZHmQDc

Part 4:http://youtube.com/watch?v=-rCnRp_MffI

Part 5:http://youtube.com/watch?v=e4qtxNxD7Dw

Part 6:http://youtube.com/watch?v=ITsBnXu0sms

Part 7:http://youtube.com/watch?v=C76-l1GkTXM

Part 8:http://youtube.com/watch?v=EAeHbEjGScg

[deadstar]

His relatives reported odd behavior and signs of mental illness before he left Korea to come to America.

[AnF1500]

His relatives reported odd behavior and signs of mental illness before he left Korea to come to America.

Correct. The guy CLEARLY had previous pyschological problems, before you even focus on any of the societal issues that may be at fault. He didn't kill over 30 people because kids didn't include him in their games as kids or because he played a violent video game.

[untilyoubelieve]

I havent read anything in this thread but if you are interesting in why Americans are so violent and school shootings you should watch Bowling for Columbine. Even if you dislike Michael Moore it is still very informative and interesting

that movie is 50% opinion and 100% propaganda.

[armegeddon]

No it wasn't a good point.

Americans commit more school shootings per head than any other country in the world. School shootings against their own people. Iraqi's commit more suicide bombings per head than any other country. Bombings against their own people.

She pointed stupidly obvious examples that cannot be compared.

Ok, then I should have clarified what I thought was a good point - she pointed out that if we tighten the gun laws (which I believe they should), that maybe the black market would open up wider. Either way, if we leave our guns laws alone or tighten them, there will still be continued gun related deaths. I think that if we make it harder for people to get guns or recieve a license, it will be better for America.

[untilyoubelieve]

No it wasn't a good point.
She pointed stupidly obvious examples that cannot be compared.


no need for name calling. and i believe they can, because violence is violence any way you slice it.


But are ANY of these suicide bombers doing this in stable social environments? Do we have suicide bombers in American schools? No. Suicide bombers in New Zealand, Australian, English, German, French, Spanish, Austrian, Swedish, Danish, Hungarian, Italian (or any other OECD/Western nation!!!) schools? How can you even compare the two when the societies they come from are POLAR opposities?

what do you think made that society that way? it's in a cycle but cycles have to start someplace.

about the Hispanic lax gun laws... guns are easy bought but are very expensive as the economy is so off balance. it's the poor people who are getting the guns illegally.

You come from a stable home life i'm assuming. Could you REALLY just go out and buy a gun around the corner? I highly doubt it. People like to make out that access to weapons in the US is ridiculously easily on the black market. I don't believe that for the majority of middle class income earning people in the US this is true. Sure if you live in areas of higher crime or lower income i'm sure it's possible. Cho didn't. He came from middle class Virginia and was a loner. How he would have the connections when he has no friends or acquaintances himself, i'm intrigued to hear.

actually, i could... though i didn't say it was really easy, just very possible. i live in lower middle class area infested, for lack of a better word, with illegal immigrants. we have a relatively high crime rate, mostly gang related. i could go down the street and buy a wide assortment of illegal substances whether they be weapons or drugs. sure, issues in America (and maybe anywhere in the world) are a little exaggerated but unless you've been here and not in just the tourist parts, don't make assumptions. i've lived in upper class, lower class, and similar areas to where i live now and in any of those places, i've known or had suspicions of this type of activity. it's not just for poor people. that's a gross generalization and stereotype.
as far as Cho, who said he had to get it in his neighborhood? who said that you have to know someone to get something? a little research on his part would have gotten him anything anywhere. but he didn't get it black market, so that's not part of the issue.


of course, i'm basing my opinion all on personal experience, both as an "outcast" young adult and an American (who has traveled around the world and seen many other cultures - i don't believe i'm that ignorant to the rest of the world). that's why this is a discussion or debate. facts aren't necessary to state your opinion.

[untilyoubelieve]

Ok, then I should have clarified what I thought was a good point - she pointed out that if we tighten the gun laws (which I believe they should), that maybe the black market would open up wider. Either way, if we leave our guns laws alone or tighten them, there will still be continued gun related deaths. I think that if we make it harder for people to get guns or recieve a license, it will be better for America.

thanks for defending my opinion but you sorta contradicted yourself there. tighter gun laws IN AMERICA with our CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to bear arms would make the black market wider. other countries don't have that hundreds year old piece of paper to base their laws off of. that makes america's law process a little different than most other countries.
i do think it will be better for america because there won't be so many people who legally bought guns that shouldn't have been allowed to but there are always going to be those people (NRA members, crazy homicidal maniacs - one in the same? heh.) that are going to have a problem with it and get their guns elsewhere, illegally.

[untilyoubelieve]

Correct. The guy CLEARLY had previous pyschological problems, before you even focus on any of the societal issues that may be at fault. He didn't kill over 30 people because kids didn't include him in their games as kids or because he played a violent video game.

haha. true story.
rudolph didn't kill the other reindeers.

[untilyoubelieve]

I haven't been following this thread, but today my friend texted me and said " Did you go to school yet?" We go to different schools, but apparently her school was in lock down due to a shooting threat, and I guess my school got a threat about wednesday. It doesn't really phase me, because threats are normally nothing, it gets you thinking though, what if?

i don't know if it's like this in other states but on 4/20, tons of school all around the valley get prank calls and threats of that sort. kids always do it but nothing actually happens, so people never know when to take it seriously. i'm just afraid a "cry wolf" situation is going to happen one of these days.

[joeag1985]

that's true but true gun control in america will never happen. the right to bear arms is written into the constitution which is a pretty solid argument against it. however, guns don't kill people. people with guns kill people.

Constitutions are made to be changed when the cause is just and right. Its a 230 year old frame of mind thats so outdated it boggles the mind. Why would a person need to go out and buy any form of handgun or heavy automatic weapon if not for inhumane violence? If people don't have guns available to them so easily then there will be a sharp reduction in this bullshit. Some sort of referendum on the topic to see if harsh gun laws can be introduced,would be pretty helpful and insightful. There's no harm in trying. It's just bound to happen again unless something is done about it now.

[KrispyKunt]

Hello,
I haven't been on here long but i just so happened to come across this and thought about the day that the Westside Shooting happened, although I wasn't in middle school yet we still were affected by the whole thing being related to some of those people they were only preteens and I still don't understand how someone can allow a 13 year old to get a hold of such drastic weapons where are the parents? Ya' know what I mean...its just ridiculousX|

[anthony051]

I was nearly expelled in 7th grade because I bought a box cutter to school, a few weeks later Columbine happened and when I came back from my suspension people always said shit like I went to Columbine while I was gone... It was shitty.

But I think it takes a lot of hate to do something like what we hear about on the news. As far as how people get the weapons, you'd be very surprised.

[Occasional]

I think if RESPONSIBLE people were allowed to take weapons on campus, school shootings wouldn't be as common. Unfortunately, responsible people are hard to find these days . . .
but seriously, if one of the kids at V-Tech had a concealed weapon, they might have been able to stop the bastard.
*sigh*
Unfortunately, wishful thinking does nothing.