"The Most Hated Family in America" (Video)

[lew_1987]

2QRyr3_nCF4

this was repeated on BBC2 late last night, god i was annoyed. infact i just got past the point of annoyed and i just became totally amused by the whole thing. if you wanna watch more, click on the video and then you can see the other parts in the related search.

PS. i enjoyed seeing the kid getting hit with the drink (if you watch it all you'll see what i mean)

[needles & pins]

One of my professors was using Theroux as an example of documentary/reality culture and played the Porn episode for us, then I went and watched this one and wow. These people are (or did, I'm not sure) going to picket one of the Virginia Tech funerals.

And the parts where the daughter (forget her name) was happy/laughing that Louis was going to hell and was happy that, if she were to be killed right then, her father would be pleased she would be going to hell... :-|

[lew_1987]

That is going to cause some shit, picketing the Virginia Tech funerals.

They certainly got some front.

yeah... if you watch the full thing, it shows them going to picket a funeral of an american soldier killed in iraq. they just don't know when to stop. and they see it as educating the family. whether their morals are right or not, do they really think the family are going to take on board anything that they say? because all they're gonna do is beat the shit out of them for being disrespectful.

and the kids doing the picketing with them don't even know what the signs mean.

this is wrong on so many levels x infinity.

[IAPAI]

they need to be assaulted in a hundred different ways.

[WingDings]

I watched this with my pre teen cousins and they were like "What? God hates ciggarettes?".

[CellarGhosts]

they need to be assaulted in a hundred different ways.
Word.

yeah... if you watch the full thing, it shows them going to picket a funeral of an american soldier killed in iraq. they just don't know when to stop. and they see it as educating the family. whether their morals are right or not, do they really think the family are going to take on board anything that they say? because all they're gonna do is beat the shit out of them for being disrespectful.

and the kids doing the picketing with them don't even know what the signs mean.

this is wrong on so many levels x infinity.
Very much so.

You know you're unpopular when you dont shut up about God and you hate gays, yet even Fox News can't stand you.
haha true.

[CellarGhosts]

But really, Fred Phelps and his gang of fucksacks are some of the saddest examples of the blind, hateful idiocy that this nation is infected with.

[jeremyfromva]

Thank God for Mike Gallagher...he did the same thing when they were going to picket at the Amish girls' funerals.

Virginia Tech Preaching Missions Cancelled

Westboro Baptist Church hereby cancels all pending pickets, and agrees not to schedule future pickets, related to The Virginia Tech Massacre, on the following terms and conditions; to wit: In consideration for 3 hours of national radio time with Mike Gallagher on his National Radio Show -- next Tuesday, April 24, from 9 a.m. to 12 noon New York time -- Westboro Baptist Church has agreed to cancel all pickets now pending and not to schedule future pickets related to The Virginia Tech Massacre. Westboro Baptist Church representatives will appear in studio with Mr. Gallagher, and will freely discuss WBC's religious position relative to such tragedies as The Virginia Tech Massacre.

[IAPAI]

Thank God for Mike Gallagher...he did the same thing when they were going to picket at the Amish girls' funerals.

Virginia Tech Preaching Missions Cancelled

Westboro Baptist Church hereby cancels all pending pickets, and agrees not to schedule future pickets, related to The Virginia Tech Massacre, on the following terms and conditions; to wit: In consideration for 3 hours of national radio time with Mike Gallagher on his National Radio Show -- next Tuesday, April 24, from 9 a.m. to 12 noon New York time -- Westboro Baptist Church has agreed to cancel all pickets now pending and not to schedule future pickets related to The Virginia Tech Massacre. Westboro Baptist Church representatives will appear in studio with Mr. Gallagher, and will freely discuss WBC's religious position relative to such tragedies as The Virginia Tech Massacre.

Wow, that's an awesome thing to do. Good call on his part.

[Thexhorde]

these people make me ashqamed to be a christian

[lew_1987]

But really, Fred Phelps and his gang of fucksacks are some of the saddest examples of the blind, hateful idiocy that this nation is infected with.

fucksacks, haha. read his page on wikipedia...

i'm sure there are tons of countries with a higher population of homosexuals than sweden. why target them specifically.... well more to point why target anyone. www.godhatessweden.com (http://www.godhatessweden.com)

[CellarGhosts]

fucksacks, haha. read his page on wikipedia...

i'm sure there are tons of countries with a higher population of homosexuals than sweden. why target them specifically.... well more to point why target anyone. www.godhatessweden.com (http://www.godhatessweden.com)

Haha yep...fucksacks...anyway Yeah I've read about this shit before on wikipedia, and such. I used to submit song parodies to AmIRight.com, and there were a fair share of parodies written in response to/against Phelps and his gang of douches. Seeing all those at first intrigued me to check out who he was, and when I read about his hate-smearing agenda, I was shocked and appalled. Really...it's pretty sickening indeed.

[atticus1492]

these people make me ashqamed to be a christian

These people are NOT Christians. They may say they are, but they are not.

[williek311]

if final judgement does come i hope god is like "you people are fucking retarted you are all going to hell"

[Sleepaway]

These people are NOT Christians. They may say they are, but they are not.


Well they are, just a ridiculous cult kind of christian.

[atticus1492]

Well they are, just a ridiculous cult kind of christian.

They are Christians.

Ha. These are both true. I was pissed off at the world last night. I am not really sure why I posted that.

[Shatter590]

one day theyre gonna wake up in hell and be like "oh damn...we were wrong?"

i love how she insists they theyre not a cult. theyre practically a textbook case of being a cult.

[PadraicPrincess]

wow yeah this thing actually made me sick to my stomach. I think i posted about it on AP once before.. but the creepiest part by far has to be the girls who are my age and to see them act so.. natural about it. espcially when he asks her "so if I don't believe in the bible what does that mean" and she just smiles and say well! you're going to hell! its just as simple as that! or something liek that anyways. but it was seriously like they were brainwashed. it makes me cringe to know there are groups out there like that.

[Hidenothing27]

They are Christians.


Please do not and be that gracious and give them that title, they ignore WAY TOO MANY VERSUS. They also missed the part a big chunk of what Jesus said, you know the whole love and compassion thing. That church if you can call it a church is made up of about 80 members, and they are all related to Fred, Fred also believes in limited atonement, which he is probably one of the few that does... I hope no one see's this guy and lumps him and his congregation in with other christians, its pretty scary how such hate can spew from his mouth..

[deadstar]

Please do not and be that gracious and give them that title, they ignore WAY TOO MANY VERSUS. They also missed the part a big chunk of what Jesus said, you know the whole love and compassion thing. That church if you can call it a church is made up of about 80 members, and they are all related to Fred, Fred also believes in limited atonement, which he is probably one of the few that does... I hope no one see's this guy and lumps him and his congregation in with other christians, its pretty scary how such hate can spew from his mouth..
Dont listen to lunchforthesky. He loves lumping in religious extremists with the obedient crowd to show why he thinks religion is wrong.

[deadstar]

They are without doubt a Christian group.

They follow the teachings of the Bible as they choose to interpret them, which is exactly what every other Christian group in society does. They just all have different interpretations.

The Westboro Baptist Church would of fit in nicely in the Middle Ages, so are you going to claim that religion in the middle ages was not Christianity?

Sure the Phelps family ignore large sections of the Bible, but so does everyone else, it's all part of the merry dance we call organised religion.
They are in the VAST minority. You fail to realize this. While most have differing views on minor issues, there are few who are this extreme.

[Hidenothing27]

I know they are in the minority, but they are still as much a Christian groups as Catholics, Protestants, Mormans etc..

Far from it, I dont think you realize how much a minority they are, they are not even a 100 people in the church, they all live in a compound, You cannot lump them in with christians, heretics maybe. Just because they claim to be christian does not mean they are, i dont lump you into stereotypical 'emo' dresser because of your ridiculous haircut..so dont lump them.

[Brokenhill]

They are going about expressing their views in a ridiculous, absurd manner...

They aren't going to get anywhere like that.

[MotionIsntMeaning]

I don't see why people keep putting this family on tv, it's just giving them the attention they so desire. Who gives a shit what a group of 80 redneck Americans say. Yes, their protesting is offensive and insensitive, but everytime they get media attention it just fuels their efforts.

[MotionIsntMeaning]

Far from it, I dont think you realize how much a minority they are, they are not even a 100 people in the church, they all live in a compound, You cannot lump them in with christians, heretics maybe. Just because they claim to be christian does not mean they are, i dont lump you into stereotypical 'emo' dresser because of your ridiculous haircut..so dont lump them.

hahaha..

[Hidenothing27]

That means absolutely nothing. Just because they are such a fringe movement is irrelevant. They follow what they believe to be the teachings of Jesus based on their interpretation of the Bible and that is the only qualification needed to be considered a Christian group. That is the only unifying factor amongst the rest of Christendom and just because they are extreme, unpopular and a horrible group in general does not mean they are not a Christian group.



When you believe everyone except yourself is going to hell, then being popularity is of little concern.


"They follow what they believe to be the teachings of Jesus based on their interpretation of the Bible", I know your an athiest and all and I respect your beliefs but read the gospels, what Jesus did and said is in no way shape or form what Fred says. "greatest commandment is love your neighbor..." ...yah i dont think fred likes that idea


Listen, I dont expect you to agree with whatever I say or anyone, and judging by your religious views, i doubt anything will, but i can tell you over here in the states, there is not a church in the world that agrees with this man.

[Brokenhill]

...those peopel are definitly not christians

[lew_1987]

...those peopel are definitly not christians

i agree with ben (if you don't mind me calling you by your first name?), they are christians because they follow the bible to their own interpretations.

[Shatter590]

But that doesn't mean anything.

In fairness to them The Bible does say homosexual is a sin.

But the only requirement to be Christian group is to follow your interpretation of The Bible and they do that.

the bible does, the ten commandments doesnt

[smokedsanity]

See, I don't really consider them 'Christians', because they seemed to be twisting things far beyond what I would consider to be logical. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not. I'm not big on organized religion anyway, but I think that these people are too far out to really associate them with the more traditional Christians.

[Hidenothing27]

But that doesn't mean anything.

In fairness to them The Bible does say homosexual is a sin.

But the only requirement to be Christian group is to follow your interpretation of The Bible and they do that.


I can understand where your coming from, i just think its a shame that such a small percentage of "christians" can ruin it so much for other christians. I guess Fred is christianity's version of the crazy muslims that fly themselves into buildings, such a small fraction of the entire religion. Good talk..

[Shatter590]

But if we only went off the ten commandments then God's instructions would be pretty vague, not that they aren't anyway. Plus they are old testament so is the new testament not worth something? That would make you Jewish surely?

its an interesting point, actually, that one of the main reasons christianity began to spread is that it threw out many of the Jewish law codes and placed the Ten Commandments at the pinnacle of its law. If you were a Jew who became Christian, then you often followed both the old and new law codes, but if you were a gentile who accepted Jesus, then as often as not, you didnt know the other minor commandments and werent obligated to accept or follow them. same holds true for circumcision.

[Sleepaway]

I read somewhere that 80% + of American males are circumcised.

[Shatter590]

good point, in galations paul points out we arent even bond to the old testament law anymore..

it was a major conversion mechanism. look at how they synched the ressurection with the pagan holiday Aostre (Easter) and how Christmas was moved to december to coincide with Yule. They made the religion eays to follow so it would get more converts.


Isn't circumcision popular in America anyway?

Also Muslims circumcise they just dont have a bar/bat mitvah for it.



Thats pretty much my thinking on it.

well, muslims circumcise because Ishmael was, and Ishmael was both the son of Abraham and the founder of the line that Muhammad came from. they foundations of all three religions of the book are the same, just the prophets and ultimate truths are different. for example, muslims revere jesus as one of the great prophets, they acknowledge the ascension and study his teachings, but do not call him the son of god.

and circumcision is popular in America, though why I dont know. its become very secular here

[Brokenhill]

See im not sure if you quite get this yet.

but putting your opinion with no evidence to support it is not how things work in a politics forum.

i agree with ben (if you don't mind me calling you by your first name?), they are christians because they follow the bible to their own interpretations.



If you're a true christian your goal would be to convert others, help them change their sinful ways and get on + follow the path of righteousness

Which cleary wasn't her/their goal.

[Shatter590]

Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the entire Quran isn't he?

not the most, but hes pretty high up there.

its really interesting to read about his teachings from the muslim perspective. theres none of the glossing over you find in the bible. hes so much more human

[Sleepaway]

I've really understood the whole "lets convert people!" thing.

[Brokenhill]

The problem is...not everyone completely understand what a "Christian" actually is.

[thejetstolehome]

a Christian is someone who doesn't pervert the teachings of Christ to spread a message of hate.

[Sleepaway]

A Christian is someone who believes in the God written about in the bible.

[Sleepaway]

I agree completely.


Yeah, I really don't think that there is anything else to it.

[Shatter590]

I've really understood the whole "lets convert people!" thing.

its called evangelism: spreading the "good news" that christ died and was resurrected. in the early church, proselytizing was important, but not the be all and end all. it wasnt until after it became romanized that conversion became a major point, as it was used to spread the church of rome into conquered areas.

[thejetstolehome]

i'm okay with Christianity, i'm not okay with Evangelism.

[jacko86]

They are a group with thinks with Kindergarten logic, misuses fancy words, they make up propaganda and homophobic speech that they pass off as religious without theological proof. And that's just the start of it.

It doesn't really matter if they are Christian or not, but they aren't going to win over many peoples thought about them or Christianity.

I am a Christian, and I find them utterly disgusting.

[Sleepaway]

its called evangelism: spreading the "good news" that christ died and was resurrected. in the early church, proselytizing was important, but not the be all and end all. it wasnt until after it became romanized that conversion became a major point, as it was used to spread the church of rome into conquered areas.


I've glad you picked up on me missing out "never" in that quote.
I guess converting just goes against my whole world view.

[Sleepaway]

i'm okay with Christianity, i'm not okay with Evangelism.


I'll agree with that to an extent.

[Shatter590]

I've glad you picked up on me missing out "never" in that quote.
I guess converting just goes against my whole world view.

context.

evangelism is common even among sects of christianity. Jehovah's witnesses try to actively convert christians to their own brand, as do many established cults like the Moonies. There have also been instances of protestants trying to "convert" catholics. when it comes to interpretation, each sect views themselves as being the right one.

[Shatter590]

Is converting others not a neccessity of organised religion?

not for all of them. Parsee (Zoroastrianism) doesnt allow it at all, Judaism frowns upon in in the more orthodox sects. Any religion thats based around a certain family line or ethnic people often discourages it.

With CHristianity and Islam, they became more social orders than pure religion, and were used in the formation of state government, so conversion was a priority then. Befopre that point, they were proclaiming something that would be good for non-believers, and wanted to spread this good news to other people. Its the same concept the Buddhists use, but Buddhism isnt active in seeking converts- you need to come to them. With Islam and Christianity, it was very much "you have to convert, listen to what we say"

[thejetstolehome]

I'll agree with that to an extent.

Is converting others not a neccessity of organised religion?

to me, there are two types of conversion:

1. think Spanish Conquistadors--violent, forceful spreading of the word. this is what i don't like. though Evangalism isn't violent in its nature, it's still offered as an ultimatum--"follow Christ or you're damned--" and i don't approve of that.

2. say you're part of a religious group and one night, you invite me to a service and what not. i like what i hear and i end up converting--i'm okay with that.

[Sleepaway]

Is converting others not a neccessity of organised religion?


Well I think that most religious beliefs are passed through families from generation to generation, so people are raised as a certain religion rather than converted.

And I think that alot of athiests who turn to religion aren't necessarily doing it because of evangelism, but because it is their own personal choice.

[Shatter590]

Well I think that most religious beliefs are passed through families from generation to generation, so people are raised as a certain religion rather than converted.

And I think that alot of athiests who turn to religion aren't necessarily doing it because of evangelism, but because it is their own personal choice.

bingo. its often part of what otto calls religious experience, that one moment that drives you to believe.

thats what i had

[wesgemm08]

"natural disasters and that sort of thing.. are going to get more and worse, and its going to be awesome"

what idiots, even if they believe that homosexuality is a sin, I guess they missed the part of the bible where Jesus died for the sins of the world.

[thejetstolehome]

oh yea, Fred Phelps is now added to my list of people who could get a stroke and i'd be okay with it.

[Brokenhill]

A Christian is someone who believes in the God written about in the bible.



Not completely true.

[Shatter590]

Generally people turn away from religion rather than turning to it.

Althuogh there are lots of exceptions.

all depends on the person, but this has been discussed before

[thejetstolehome]

A Christian is someone who believes in the God written about in the bible.

well, that would make Jews Christians.

[Shatter590]

well, that would make Jews Christians.

i think the rule is one must believe that christ died for your sins and they must accept him as their personal saviour. as far as I can tell, thats the only requirement for being a christian

[thejetstolehome]

i think the rule is one must believe that christ died for your sins and they must accept him as their personal saviour. as far as I can tell, thats the only requirement for being a christian

winner.

[Brokenhill]

i think the rule is one must believe that christ died for your sins and they must accept him as their personal saviour. as far as I can tell, thats the only requirement for being a christian

winner.


A christian is one who follows in christ's footsteps...following God's word (New Testament) strictly, nothing more nothing less, including teaching others about the gospel.


According to the bible, to be apart of God's Kingdom...one must hear the word, believe, repent( state that they are going to change their life ), confess that they have sin, and finally be baptized for the remission of sins.

That is how it was done in every example ( throughout the book of Acts ).

[Shatter590]

A christian is one who follows in christ's footsteps...following God's word (New Testament) strictly, nothing more nothing less, including teaching others about the gospel.


According to the bible, to be apart of God's Kingdom...one must hear the word, believe, repent( state that they are going to change their life ), confess that they have sin, and finally be baptized for the remission of sins.

That is how it was done in every example ( throughout the book of Acts ).

that is indeed how it happened in the new testament, and is also part of the act of accepting jesus as ones personal saviour (much like the concept of being "born again")

[lew_1987]

If you're a true christian your goal would be to convert others, help them change their sinful ways and get on + follow the path of righteousness

Which cleary wasn't her/their goal.

you're exactly wrong, because they believe that is the path to righteousness, it is just THEIR path. like i was saying its just their interpretation, whether its wrong or not. if you listen to interviews they say they they go to peoples funerals to make them see that their way is wrong blah blah etc. search for "fuck westboro baptist church" on youtube and you'll see what i mean.

and how did my thread double in size over night???

[howdydoody]

"natural disasters and that sort of thing.. are going to get more and worse, and its going to be awesome"

what idiots, even if they believe that homosexuality is a sin, I guess they missed the part of the bible where Jesus died for the sins of the world.
I like how ballsy they are to make the statement on natural disasters being God's right judgement, and they live in Kansas, aka a place you're most likely to have your ass handed to you by a tornado.

[Brokenhill]

you're exactly wrong, because they believe that is the path to righteousness, it is just THEIR path. like i was saying its just their interpretation, whether its wrong or not. if you listen to interviews they say they they go to peoples funerals to make them see that their way is wrong blah blah etc. search for "fuck westboro baptist church" on youtube and you'll see what i mean.

and how did my thread double in size over night???


God set up a plan to be followed exactly how he mapped it out...there is no "multiple paths" you can choose from.

Most people think everyone gets to heaven, but just take different routes there...

However, the bible does not teach that concept.

[lew_1987]

God set up a plan to be followed exactly how he mapped it out...there is no "multiple paths" you can choose from.

Most people think everyone gets to heaven, but just take different routes there...

However, the bible does not teach that concept.

yeah but theres so many ways to interpret it... theres no way someone is gonna read it and think exactly the same as another person.

[Brokenhill]

yeah but theres so many ways to interpret it... theres no way someone is gonna read it and think exactly the same as another person.


Actually the bible is very simple to understand...people just make it seem/believe its so complicated.

Which is even stated in the NT...I wish I remembered the ch. and vs. right now...

[lew_1987]

Actually the bible is very simple to understand...people just make it seem/believe its so complicated.

Which is even stated in the NT...I wish I remembered the ch. and vs. right now...

yeah... one would think its simple, but people need justification for the things they do. and if they can bend something to suit their situation, they will. ive seen the bible misquoted so many times. its actually quite funny how unrelated the quotes can get.

[Brokenhill]

yeah... one would think its simple, but people need justification for the things they do. and if they can bend something to suit their situation, they will. ive seen the bible misquoted so many times. its actually quite funny how unrelated the quotes can get.


Yes...so many people will take what they read and shape it into something completely different than the meaning...

..because its what they want to hear...

and that is why we have so many divisions in the world today pertaining especially to christianity based religions...

it seems every month there is some new church created by some group of people...

[Love As Arson]

The early church fathers had disputes regarding the nature of god, the books that were heretical, traditions, etc. As such, it would be presumptuous to posit that there is one particular brand of Christianity, which is distinct in its truth. This becomes an especially salient point when one observes how Christianity has developed throughout the years; that is, from a religion of slaves to a religion distorted by fusion with the Roman state.

[clace]

I really hope this woman gets shot by a gay soldier.

[Iamhome]

Christianity should be about kindness and forgiveness and acceptance and love...

Not protest and wishing death upon people. I'd love to have a chat with this dumb broad.

[lew_1987]

I really hope this woman gets shot by a gay soldier.

or even better a gay catholic swedish soldier

[clace]

What's worse is that she has reproduced.

[the thread]

What's worse is that she has reproduced.

too many times. some people cant find others to agree with them, and they go out and have huge families, so they can create their own cult, like this family. pretty impressive when you think about it.

[Spewk]

my brother first told me about these guys, i wrote them a very respectful email, and i got the reply of "YOUR GOING TO HELL." these are the sickest people i have ever seen. it can not be stressted enough that they are the biggest assholes in the world!

[the thread]

my brother first told me about these guys, i wrote them a very respectful email, and i got the reply of "YOUR GOING TO HELL." these are the sickest people i have ever seen. it can not be stressted enough that they are the biggest assholes in the world!

yeah. even if youre like the one older gentleman in the film who said he didnt agree with homosexuality, but that they were going to far, she basically just called him a *** and told him he loves the cock. these people are so volatile, yet you know they enjoy it. they almost dont want you to agree with them if youre not going to use hateful language or be pissed off and want to incite violence in other people. what garbage.

[Hidenothing27]

Christianity should be about kindness and forgiveness and acceptance and love...

Not protest and wishing death upon people. I'd love to have a chat with this dumb broad.


christianity is about that besides what the media says, you dont see the media showing how there are thousands of churches involved in prisons and churches doing fantastic missions work all over. What these extremist christians do quite sad and heart breaking and like i said before, there is less than 100 of them. I know it sucks that such a small amount of people can make a such a deep horrible impact.

[the thread]

christianity is about that besides what the media says, you dont see the media showing how there are thousands of churches involved in prisons and churches doing fantastic missions work all over. What these extremist christians do quite sad and heart breaking and like i said before, there is less than 100 of them. I know it sucks that such a small amount of people can make a such a deep horrible impact.

this is simply how media works. look at many of the "rough" neighborhoods you always see on the news and how dangerous these neighborhoods supposedly are. in reality, its very false (i know Michael Moore touched upon this) but our media is constantly searching for stories that will shock and awe, that will make people watch it, because like everything else, its still a service industry. they cant make money if they focus on your normal every day catholic church which holds mass, similar to every other day of the year. instead, we get to see images of what is essentially a cult, inciting and spreading hate, because thats what you and i and everyone else apparently want to watch.

its not a wonder i dont watch the news more often.

[dai the flu]

Have you ever read the old testament?
he said christianity. christianity isn't based on the old testament.

talking about the media spinning all religions this way...its a trend mirrored by this forum. there's dozens of christians on here who are very respectful of others beliefs, very intelligent people who accept other's differences and promote the christian standard of love, yet these people are completely ignored and overlooked in favor of the very few who give religion a bad name.
focusing on posters like 'a fatal goodbye' and branding all christians as having the same mentality is ridiculous. it needs to stop.

[thejetstolehome]

he said christianity. christianity isn't based on the old testament.

talking about the media spinning all religions this way...its a trend mirrored by this forum. there's dozens of christians on here who are very respectful of others beliefs, very intelligent people who accept other's differences and promote the christian standard of love, yet these people are completely ignored and overlooked in favor of the very few who give religion a bad name.
focusing on posters like 'a fatal goodbye' and branding all christians as having the same mentality is ridiculous. it needs to stop.

1. he said he was leaving last night so, if i may, thank fucking Christ.
2. doing that is incredibly unfair.
3. i'm glad most Christians/Catholics i know don't think like him.

[Shatter590]

1. he said he was leaving last night so, if i may, thank fucking Christ.
2. doing that is incredibly unfair.
3. i'm glad most Christians/Catholics i know don't think like him.

he has the ame interpretation of chritianity that caused me to turn my back on the church ten years ago

[Iamhome]

christianity is about that besides what the media says, you dont see the media showing how there are thousands of churches involved in prisons and churches doing fantastic missions work all over. What these extremist christians do quite sad and heart breaking and like i said before, there is less than 100 of them. I know it sucks that such a small amount of people can make a such a deep horrible impact.

I agree... It's okay, the people who care about christianity and are living the correct 'christian way' know they are in the wrong...

Have you ever read the old testament?
Yes I have, why do you ask?

[Hidenothing27]

Have you ever read the old testament?

Have you ever read the new testament, there is a reason why it comes after the old... Listen I hope your better educated than that to bring up the old testament, granted you will probably talk about leviticus and all the damning the book does but you won't talk about the new testament and why those no longer apply, mainly because that was the old covenant this is the new, God kicked some ass and took some names in the old thats for sure. Jesus whom I believe to be the son of god hung out with prostitutes, criminals, the lame, the leopards, all who at the time were despised, this man loved those people and would talk to them when no one would, THAT is what christianity is about, now I'm sorry there are a lot of people out there who take god's word and twist into whatever they seem fit, and i'm sorry if encounter people like that, but the fact of the matter is most christians try to do what he said. Additionally if you are going to use the old testament, please talk about some of the ridiculous laws in the OT, because some are quite funny. Always remember that the first Hermanutical principle is Context is King, remember the context of those versus

[Hidenothing27]

The old testament is a part of Christianity, or at least most sects of it and i'm sure we can all agree it's not exactly a great book, or collection of books from which to draw ones morality.


Wrong, please go read leviticus and throw is some galations afterword, because if you read levitiucs then according to the OT I cannot wear a old navy sweater because it is a sin, and I cannot cut my hair near my temple because that is a sin and I could go on for ever more ridiculous ones... You have to remember context, why does the OT say we need to sacrifice livestock and we don't? Just because its there does not mean you do it.

[Hidenothing27]

So Christians can pick and choose God's word? Surely God, being omnipotent and all would of made his words timeless rather than so many of them becoming so dated and frankly ridiculous, but apparently not.

Also please remember that when you are claiming things of Jesus, you are basing them off an incredibly unreliable source, and that is the only source we have for information on Jesus. The fact is that Jesus was probably very different to how the Bible discribes him, assuming he even existed at all in any recognisable form.

It is essentially the same as me describing at length what a terrible God Apollo is because he caused the death of Patroclus in Illiad, yet not within the context of the Iliad, but attempting to assume that because it is in a book it is certain when this really is not the case.


I did not want to learn about apollo, but I do thank you for the free of charge history lesson.

Your getting good, Christians cannot pick and choose that was point about leviticus, additionally why I asked you to read galations!! My guess though is you may not own a bible but there is always online... I do think god's timeless but I also think context is very important, just as somethings back then are no longer accpeted today and vica versa. Its how a culture works, you seem pretty educated you obviously know the bible is translated from greek, break out a lexicon (if you know what that is) and do some research into the words, mainly abomination... like how the word in greek means something untastefull at this time. I find it interesting that many religions awknowledge Jesus and as far as I have researched is one of the most historically accounted for person.


For some historical comments, I will let my brother write because, well he is quite the history major, and he could help you with your same 'outdated' arguments...first of all the bible is extremely reliable, actually it is probably the most reliable piece of historical documents we have for a number of reasons. One of the first reasons we know jesus exsisted is through secular historians works. Joespheus, a jewish historian, who wrote a history of the jewish people. his interperative framework would suggest leaving jesus out, but he mentions him, which states that Jesus had to have some sort of impact on this society. Another historian, that was not a christian, and would not have a reason to support jesus was a roman historian named tychus...might have spelled that wrong. he states that there were a great number of people that would not convert to the roman pantheon religion due to their severe devotion to christianity, even under tremendous torture, and death. nero for example used christians as torches in his garden. we also know that christ existed by looking at the 12 disciples lives. historical record shows that 11/12 first apostles died horrific deaths. Peter was hung upside down on a cross, for example. The bible is also reliable by looking at four certain things. the first one is manuscripts. by looking at early manuscripts of scripture, some as early as 100 years after christ's life on earth ( 100 years later and we would consider the declaration of independence or the constitution still valid and unchanged...ie the scriptures were more important to these people and thus would have copied carefully) that are 99 percent the same. Some translations do differ, for example one might use servant, or bondservant, however both are the same. the second way we know scripture is authoriatitve is by artifacts. for years many scholars believed that the hititates mentioned in the bible that these people did not exist, however after careful archeology, this has been proven untrue ( harvard now has an exhibit, or they did, to these people) third is the prophecy. there are 330 prophecys concerning christ alone. such as where he would be born, and what line he would descend from that are not controllable, nor the way that he was put to death. look at eziekial 30, you will see prophecy fulfilled in the establishment of israel in 1948. Jesus and daniel both predicted the temple would be destroyed again, which it was in 70 ad, 35 years after christs life. the last way we know the bible is authoritative is through statistics. for example the chances of evolution happening without god is about the same as a 747 being built by a tornado..not happening. also the chances of Jesus fulfilling all 330+ prophecys is mind boggling. So yes the bible does have a reliable story and we must take it as such. In doing so realize that we can not get to heaven without a savior, and jesus is that savior, without placing trust in him there is no other way. The bible is also timeless, as a I read it I can see how it has an impact on my life in many areas. areas such as obeying authority, or trusting god with my money--which he always gives back double fold. Lastly i Have a personal relationship with jesus christ, and no one can tell me that i dont. I hope in the future you will a. read the bible, b. do research before making that arguement.

[Shatter590]

hey ben, for perspective (as you asked earlier about another view of Jesus), check out the quran. I think the way they describe him there is a bit more accurate

[rikfrommf]

these people make me ashqamed to be a christian

Dont be ashamed you KNOW God is going to be pissed. Its false prophecy. And putting words in Gods mouth.

[Shatter590]

That is my thinking personally. That Jesus was probably a good man, but not the son of God.

EDIT: I got a Quran a few months ago (translated obviously) and am currently working my way through it.

ahmed ali did the best one ive ever read.

outside of christianity, a lot of religions view jesus as a good man who deserves to be emulated and listened to. islam quotes him frequently and praises his teaching, but goes no further than that, which is why i like that interpretation of it. I place Jesus alongside Buddha in that regard.

[Shatter590]

People do take on Jesus' teachings indirectly, I believe it is called Socialism.

which is ironic seeing as how socialism is tied to marxism, which was decidedly anti-Jesus, god, etc

[Shatter590]

It is rather, socialism in general is pretty anti religion, particularly the organised variety. Althuogh Tolstoy is of course partial to some Bible thumping.

lol, not til particularly late in life though. the confession was after he was 50 i think, and even then it didnt make him a bible thumper, rather just open to belief

[Shatter590]

Yeah i wonder if he was playing that deathbed conversion angle?

I suspect he was too intelligent for it though and could easilly spot the fallacy of such an approach.

i know it wasnt deathbed. have you ever read "Confession?" thats pretty much his conversion story.

[Brokenhill]

I dont mean to troll constantly but isn't the Bible a classic example of men putting words in God's mouth?


The Bible was written by men, however ispired by God...therefor it is the literal words of God, just copied down through men.

However, many people today take things from the bible, and change it to make it say what they want it to...

[Hidenothing27]

As an Atheist i appreciate all too well the issues with translations, my question would be if the Bible is open to change like this, does that not make it pretty worthless, unlesss you are reading the original manusrcipts, and i assume you can only speak English?

Secondly if such a travesty can happenb through translation imagine what happen in the decades and decades when the stories supposedly told by Jesus were never written down.

Also this poses in my opinion an even more serious question. It is widely accepted throughout Christendom that God in someway influenced the bible. This ranges from "Divinely Inspired" to God having practically written the books, depending on who you ask. But if God is omnipotent and perfect surely he could have forseen his work would be misrepresented/mistranslated etc.. yet he allowed this to happen. The Bible is therefore an imperfect work, that in its modern form it deceives people into following a way of life that reasonable Christians say God would not of wanted. In the current Bible it describes homosexuality as an abomination and surely God in his infinite forsight could of seen this occuring yet he allowed it, and thus allowed his message to be corrupted. Why? Is it because God does genuinly think homosexuality is an abomination? Or is it because God did not have quite the influence on The Bible that is claimed on him. Then of course we have the free will argument, but is it not slightly unfair and bad judgement of God to allow the flaws of the past generations to bind future generations to the the bad translations of old? One can't be expected to pay for the failures of people in a time when they themselves weren't living. Especially when God supposedly judges us all equally and more importantly seperatly after we die. Yet in this case he is treating us as a collective. Why the double standards, they dont seem to me the work of a just God.



I think you are referring to Tacitus. Both Tacitus and Josephus did not live when Jesus was alive and this is absolutely key to the reliability of thier testimony. Jesus died whilst Tiberius was Roman Emperor from AD14 - 47. Nero did not take to the Principate until AD54 a good twenty years after the death of Jesus. Tacitus himself didnt write his histories until under the reign of Domitian approxiamtely 96AD and so that is good sixty years after the death of Jesus, Josephus wrote around 75AD which is forty years after Jesus's death.

Now that may not seem like much now, but if you were writing your History report on the 1940's when the only reports were spoken word and no eye witnesses still lived that would hardly make for a valid History report.

And most importantly is that Tacitus never wrote about the life of Jesus himself ever. He only ever wrote about the activities of early Christians approximately twenty years after Jesus died. Never does he report on the activities of Jesus himself. Josephus' account is plagued by partial forgeries and is highly sceptical with even the church having admitted sections were altered in the middle ages. To rely on that for factual evidence is to make a huge leap of faith, rather than to suscribe to the scientific method, which is the only valid way.

Also im not sure how much you know about Roman History but it was very different to the way we conduct History. The focus was on telling an interesting story and creating a moral message rather than Historical accuracy. This makes any Ancient History hugely unreliable from the beginning. For exaple Tacitus makes ridiculous claims of sexual preversion of many of the figures in his book that almost certainly never happened merely because it maked for a better and more interesting story when he came to read his story aloud, as was the tradition.

Practically all Ancient History is based on specualtion, we can assume for example that Julius Caesar lived and existed because of the weight of evidence, but so much to do with his life may never of happened and that is simply the unfortunate truth about Anceint and Early Medieval History.




I dont have time for Bible codes, they are very very silly.

Wasn't the world supposed to end in 2006 based on a Bible Code?

Hmmm.

and didn't someone predict a similar number of accurate events using Moby Dick instead of the Bible?



Completely irrelevant. People thought they had a personal relationship with Thor, Wotan, Zeus, Shiva, Vishnu, Bhramin, Zeus, Apollo, Hecabe, Poseidon and so on.



first, never mentioned anything about bible code...i dont know a thing about it, what i do know is that there are a ton of prophecys that were fulfilled.some of which i mentioned...take a look at psalm 22 and isiah 53...which explain the suffering of christ and were written hundreds of years before...which gives weight to the bible over any other book. secondly, titicus and joespheus were what we call secondary sources. No they were not eyewitnesses, but oral history can be considered a primary source, which both use. the fact that titicus mentions christians and their activity means that they must have been influenced by something that was not shakeable. so it is significant to note. you have to understand that 60 years is hardly anything in history. especcially when copies werent made. in cultures like these, story telling would have been corrected if it was out of place. How come jews of the time knew the old testament well? but all of a sudden they mess up facts?
As far as ancient history was concerned, the jews of the time were also interested in keeping a recorded fact, as well as the greeks, pheopholus was one of the first historians and he was not so concerned with story telling like homer was.

heres some better questions
Atheism . hence in the word....saying that someone knows everything and knows for a fact that there is no god, so do athiests know everything? including the fact that a God can not exist?

one also has to take in account for morality. logically we have law, therefore, there must be a law giver.

secondly one has to account for asethitics, how do we know what beauty is? the same can be said for love.

there are just a few things that it can not account for. obviously christianity cant either like where did god come from. However it is very rooted in history ( ask a historian with a phd) and in science, the medical explainations of crucifiction explain what the bible tells us about it. also if the earth is off by 1 degree it would simply be too cold or too hot, the chances of life forming out of a ooze that apparently in the beginning of the world is highly unlikely considering how toxic it really was. this is a good discussion however, i wont be responding so enjoy, id encourage you to look at some books by the following, lee strobel and josh mccdowel, both former athiests who set out to prove christianity wrong, but ended up believing otherwise, however one does need to be humble, if one is to read this with a prideful heart, youll miss the point

[Brokenhill]

Evidence?



You mean like every Christian who has ever lived?



I can't give you scientific evidence, but scriptural. and yes I do know thats not good enough for you, but what do you expect when I am fighting for something based on faith?

If you don't believe that anything can exist without scientific evidence, then you will never believe in God, or some "higher power".

and you can't make that accusation without even knowing what a true christian is.

But yes, probably the majority of people will make something of a scripture that it completely isnt.

[Love As Arson]

one also has to take in account for morality. logically we have law, therefore, there must be a law giver.

secondly one has to account for asethitics, how do we know what beauty is? the same can be said for love.
How does one account for different stanrds of beauty and morality across cultures?


The Bible was written by men, however ispired by God...therefor it is the literal words of God, just copied down through men.

However, many people today take things from the bible, and change it to make it say what they want it to...
There are inconsistencies within the text, which would not be present if it were dictated word for word by god. Rather than view the author as a sort of secretary, one should view them as an individual inspired by god, through spiritual and historical circumstances, to develop the texts in their own words.

[Brokenhill]

Contrary to popular belief...the bible has no contradictions, that is why it is such a believable thing.

If you would actually take the time to read it, even the supposed contradictions, and look at the CONTEXT then you would see that certain things do not contradict.

Also, the bible has been translated many times form the original greek text...so some things aren't exactly perfectly alligned.

The closest version to the original greek/hebrew text would be the King James version.

But today their are so many versions of bibles out their....and allot of them have scriptures edited by men, which is a sad thing.

[Brokenhill]

i would if this higher power offered a shred of evidence for his/her/its existence



A book as vague as the Bible will always be down to interpretation and thus everyone who reads it fill sub conciously fit it to what they want it to be.


The bible is very straight foward and easy to understand if you take the time to read it.

and all those people "perverting" the bible to what they want it to say, and then spread that word: are false teachers...which we are notified in the Bible about.

I disagree with the bible being vague...and the only book that has a difficult interpretation would be Revalation...just becuse of the wording and location...etc.

And God did prove his existance by sending down prophets and leaders in earlier times...then sending Christ who performed many miricles to get the people to believe he was the true son og God...which then allowed for a physical form of the bible, which we have today...so we don't need those miraculous things to be done.

[Love As Arson]

Contrary to popular belief...the bible has no contradictions, that is why it is such a believable thing.
There are occassions where the text makes anachronistic claims.

If you would actually take the time to read it, even the supposed contradictions, and look at the CONTEXT then you would see that certain things do not contradict.
I agree there are instances in which individuals ascribe contradictions to the text when the context is quite important.

The closest version to the original greek/hebrew text would be the King James version.
Actually, many scholars castigate the translation for the style of language it was written in and find the text from which it was translated unreliable.

But today their are so many versions of bibles out their....and allot of them have scriptures edited by men, which is a sad thing.
The Oxford Study Bible is an incredible resource, with its accurate translations and annotations which provide insight into the texts. I recommend picking it up if you are looking for a reliable bible.

[Brokenhill]

That there is a thousand different sects of Christianity and that it leaves many, many thinking it to be false, suggests it is somewhat vague



Evidence for miracles? evidence they were sent by God?

You can't just claim someone carried out miracles and call it evidence. That's not how logic works, i'm afraid.


Thats not how human logic is...

but "Gods weakness is stronger than man" according to scripture.

because, God created man, and no creation can overpower its creator.


and once again...it is all based on faith my friend, God has given us the Bible as proof...he gives us that choice to believe in it or to not...

And yes...there are so many religious divisions today, which is truely sad. However, that is all man that has done that.

[Brokenhill]

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#genealogy

You're telling me every single one of those is completely wrong.

You're brainwashed.

Every single quote is from The King James version.

Seriously prove those contradictions wrong or else you have no case.


Its all in the conteext...

Also, you can't pull apart the bible , it must be taken as a whole.

I am not brainwashed I have seen it for myself...seeing as I chose to follow through with baptism...no one pressured me or forced me...

[Brokenhill]

So a child can't someday overpower it's parent?


God is omnipotent therefore he knew it would happen and when creating man created them in such a way as they could do such a thing.


he did know there would be so many divisions in the world...that is why he warns us about false teachings.

That is why one must read the Bible themself...and not take what the preacher, pastor, bishop, elder, deacon, next door neighbor, the pope, what ever so called "bible knowledgeable " people for what the bible actually says. You can get help from people who are more knowledgable about the bible thanyou, but you must look yourself for comformation.

[Brokenhill]

Therefore any form of organised religion is both pointless and encourages this kind of behaviour. I assume you dont go to church then? Or else you are being extremely contradictory.


I do...for that is required of me to worship God, and take part in the Lord's Supper every sunday...

...however we have a small congregation of 5 that was started by my father myself, and another family.

And I in no way contradicted myself.

[Brokenhill]

I was saying for people to just go sit in a catholic...or baptist...or any church building, and listen to what the preacher is saying, believing it but not making sure for themself that he (or she these days ) that they are speakign what the Bible actually says and means.

[Brokenhill]

How very cultish of you.



So do you or do you not disagree with organised religion?


What exactly are you asking...because there are many issues within organized religions...

And what type of organized religion?

[Brokenhill]

Our group of 5 believe in the same things...we base our worship and how we live on lives soley on the Bible itself...

We all came from bigger congregations ( Churches of Christ ) but formed our own congregation because of our location...

[Brokenhill]

Well all forms of organised religion involve one man interpretating the word of god for others, which you apparently dislike, so surely organised religion is corrupting the word of God?


In many cases I suppose, yes...

Take a catholic or baptists church...they create creeds based on *what they think, should be taught* from the bible, and teach it so tons of people..seeing as those are some of the biggest religions around.

[Nevuk]

No, he goes to the public library downtown, he walks there while casting his clothing to the beggars who need it more. Like the bible says to.

[Brokenhill]

So does every group ever, including your own church.



How about no...

[Brokenhill]

Jesus promoted living in an unmaterialistic, life of poverty. Yet you own a computer?

Sounds an awful lot like American capitalist christianity to me.


Yea he encouraged others to be generous, etc. But it doesnt say anywhere no one can have material things...

I don't even know where you came up with that...

[Brokenhill]

How can anyone possibly not teach what they want to teach?

it is a physical impossibility.



Well, what we teach and what we want to teach is alligned with God's word...

[Nevuk]

Yea he encouraged others to be generous, etc. But it doesnt say anywhere no one can have material things...

I don't even know where you came up with that...

Rich man into heaven, camel through the eye of the needle? Sound familiar?

[Nevuk]

I sometimes wonder if you do this for amusement or to try and convince each other who is right.

[Jason Tate]

"I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god."
Matthew 19:24

The Bible sure is contradictory.

[thejetstolehome]

In many cases I suppose, yes...

Take a catholic or baptists church...they create creeds based on *what they think, should be taught* from the bible, and teach it so tons of people..seeing as those are some of the biggest religions around.


isn't...that...the...point of...religion...?

[thejetstolehome]

Well, what we teach and what we want to teach is alligned with God's word...

and every single religion, or religious group, thinks their interpretation is aligned with their Gods' word.

[Nevuk]

The Bible sure is contradictory.
So true. And the popular interpretation is a tad off, the guy beat people with whips for caring more about money than religion in a temple (hilarious story, never comes up in a church). I've heard that Jesus' teachings imply with almost certainty that he is a socialist.

[thejetstolehome]

So true. And the popular interpretation is a tad off, the guy beat people with whips for caring more about money than religion in a temple (hilarious story, never comes up in a church). I've heard that Jesus' teachings imply with almost certainty that he is a socialist.

i remember seeing that picture illustrated in my church's Sunday Missal. i always thought "Jesus sure knew when to lay the smackdown."

[Brokenhill]

and every single religion, or religious group, thinks their interpretation is aligned with their Gods' word.



we know through comformation of the Bible...

and we always strive to be more perfect...if we are donig anything wrong, we would love someone to point it out to us, so we could correct it.

You dont see other religions doing that now do you?

Everyone in our congregation has a say in what goes on...their is no higher person only making decisions.

[Nevuk]

Yeah, its just bad to bring that story up right before asking for everyone to "tithe" to you. Cuz it might give them ideas. Especially after they sit through an hour long sermon on the importance of tithing.

[Brokenhill]

yep, but it was fun tricking him into basically rejecting the religion he's spent the past hour defending.


you didn't trick me into anything...

im glad you're proud of yourself for accomplishing nothing.

[thejetstolehome]

we know through comformation of the Bible...

and the guy who was the Pastor at the church i used to go to knew that too.

and we always strive to be more perfect...if we are donig anything wrong, we would love someone to point it out to us, so we could correct it.

You dont see other religions doing that now do you?

Everyone in our congregation has a say in what goes on...their is no higher person only making decisions.


i'm not saying you're doing anything wrong but you're not doing anything different than any other religious group. just becuase there are only five people doesn't make it any different.

[Brokenhill]

Its a long long book. You cant possibly teach everything. What about been stoned to death for starting a fire on a sunday? Do you talk at length about the ungodliness of such an act?

Or do you ignore it cause it's kind of silly.


Do you even know who got stoned? and why?

Those who were stoned to death, were disciples of Christ, spreading his word; and the people that discple was speakignto got angered for what he was teaching...and killed him.

[thejetstolehome]

and here's me thinking Jesus wasn't a violent man...

eh, i always kinda wrote it off; Son of God or not, He (if real, etc.) was still just a man and could still snap.

[Brokenhill]

and the guy who was the Pastor at the church i used to go to knew that too.




i'm not saying you're doing anything wrong but you're not doing anything different than any other religious group. just becuase there are only five people doesn't make it any different.



How are we not? We follow the bible as God instructed...studying couple times a week, worshipping once a week...

While those other religions have these "higher people" ( which were never assigned by God in the bible )...and those higher people write creeds and such that tell everyoen how to follow God, but really what they are teachign isnt 100% true.

[thejetstolehome]

I really did but dont get your knickers in a twist.

haha, British idioms.

by the way, the phrase "takin' the piss" is awesome.

[Nevuk]

Oh, the ultimate way to knock down anyone's reverence of the bible is with the giants in genesis... three, I believe. No explanation is ever given, but it states that giant's do indeed exist.

[thejetstolehome]

How are we not? We follow the bible as God instructed...studying couple times a week, worshipping once a week...

While those other religions have these "higher people" ( which were never assigned by God in the bible )...and those higher people write creeds and such that tell everyoen how to follow God, but really what they are teachign isnt 100% true.

my god, how dense are you, dude? honestly, how dense?

EVERY. SINGLE. RELIGIOUS. GROUP. TO. EVER. EXIST. THINKS. THAT. IT. IS. FOLLOWING. THE. WORD. OF. GOD. TO. THE. LETTER. YOURS. IS. NO. DIFFERENT. REGARDLESS. OF. SIZE.

[Brokenhill]

eh, i always kinda wrote it off; Son of God or not, He (if real, etc.) was still just a man and could still snap.

Getting angry isn't a sin...scriptures say its ok to be angry, as long as you dont sin becase of your angryness.

Jesus himself "snapped" by turning over tables in a temple with I believe idols being sold and such...

He was never violent, as in inflicting pain on anyone.

[thejetstolehome]

Oh, the ultimate way to knock down anyone's reverence of the bible is with the giants in genesis... three, I believe. No explanation is ever given, but it states that giant's do indeed exist.

http://www.nba.com/media/Shaq_400_060208.jpg

this is who they were talking about. he spans all of time. ever.

[Nevuk]

Getting angry isn't a sin...scriptures say its ok to be angry, as long as you dont sin becase of your angryness.

Jesus himself "snapped" by turning over tables in a temple with I believe idols being sold and such...

He was never violent, as in inflicting pain on anyone.
It says he drove them from the temple with whips after that, you forget that part?

[Shatter590]

my god, how dense are you, dude? honestly, how dense?

EVERY. SINGLE. RELIGIOUS. GROUP. TO. EVER. EXIST. THINKS. THAT. IT. IS. FOLLOWING. THE. WORD. OF. GOD. TO. THE. LETTER. YOURS. IS. NO. DIFFERENT. REGARDLESS. OF. SIZE.

:clap:

[Brokenhill]

So you and your little group are the only ones allowed into heaven?

Interesting how this thread has come back to Westboro Baptist Church again.


No...I didn't say that...

Those who follow the God's word strictly will "receive the crown of life" Revaltions 2:10

and acheiving that goal of being with God in the end, is not a congregational thing, each person has to make that decision...

[thejetstolehome]

i really dont use them enough.

you should start doing more of it.

[Brokenhill]

It says he drove them from the temple with whips after that, you forget that part?



No it doesnt...

and you tink you're funny, but you arent.

[Shatter590]

No...I didn't say that...

Those who follow the God's word strictly will "receive the crown of life" Revaltions 2:10

and acheiving that goal of being with God in the end, is not a congregational thing, each person has to make that decision...

what i would like to askis how do you apply this to a: jews and b: everyone who lived before christ(and for that matter, abraham). according to your point, they were all sinners and are brungin in hell, a la dante.

[Nevuk]

http://www.nba.com/media/Shaq_400_060208.jpg

this is who they were talking about. he spans all of time. ever.

Nah, there are actually several different races in the bible, 3 secs of research reveals that. But wow at the passages statements and how whacked out they sound. Genesis 6:4:
" 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."
And thats not the last mention of giants either.
Numbers 13:32-33 "...All the people we saw there are of great size. We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.""

http://peter.chattaway.com/articles/giants.htm
Lol just some useless info.

[Brokenhill]

my god, how dense are you, dude? honestly, how dense?

EVERY. SINGLE. RELIGIOUS. GROUP. TO. EVER. EXIST. THINKS. THAT. IT. IS. FOLLOWING. THE. WORD. OF. GOD. TO. THE. LETTER. YOURS. IS. NO. DIFFERENT. REGARDLESS. OF. SIZE.


Size doesn't matter but state of mind does...

If your statement is true...which I disagree with...then you're saying nobody is right in the entire universe, and that no one will enter the kingdom of God.

[Nevuk]

No it doesnt...

and you tink you're funny, but you arent.
And you think you are intelligent and know verse and scripture so perfectly that no one can ever prove you wrong. I've got some fucking news for you : SCRIPTURE IS FLAWED.

[Shatter590]

Nah, there are actually several different races in the bible, 3 secs of research reveals that. But wow at the passages statements and how whacked out they sound. Genesis 6:4:
" 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."
And thats not the last mention of giants either.
Numbers 13:32-33 "...All the people we saw there are of great size. We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.""

http://peter.chattaway.com/articles/giants.htm
Lol just some useless info.

the nephilim- children of men and angels. theyre all over the book of enoch

[Brokenhill]

what i would like to askis how do you apply this to a: jews and b: everyone who lived before christ(and for that matter, abraham). according to your point, they were all sinners and are brungin in hell, a la dante.


The jews and gentiles were exposed to the teachings of Christ...

and people back before Christ such as abraham had to follow a different plan to reach heaven...that is why there is an old and new testament.

Everyman is a sinner, I am too...but Christ allows our sins to be forgiven...living under the new testament today.

[Nevuk]

Oh, and here is the whip. Its only in one of the gospels : John 2:13-16
" 13When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!""

[thejetstolehome]

Size doesn't matter but state of mind does...

If your statement is true...which I disagree with...then you're saying nobody is right in the entire universe, and that no one will enter the kingdom of God.

you have to be the densest person i have ever interacted with.

i thought i had spelled this out in the simplest terms possibe, but apparently not.

the state of mind of EVERY devout member of EVERY religious group ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH is that his or her group IS RIGHT. Catholics think they're right, Baptists think they're right, Presbyterians think they're right, Evangelicals think they're right, Buddhists think they're right, Jews think they're right, Muslims think they're right. it's really not a fucking hard concept to understand.

[Brokenhill]

But you follow his word strictly as you live a materialistic lifestyle driven by pursuit of wealth, which Matthew already dismissed with:

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Sorry man but it seems you aren't following God's word. No heaven for you i guess, but i hear hell is nice too. A lot more fun.


In the scriptures it states if God will provide for his flock...he takes care of his followers...if you follow God, you don't have to worry about when or what you are going to need...

Your refernce is actually irrelevant...and by the way im not rich...

[Shatter590]

The jews and gentiles were exposed to the teachings of Christ...

and people back before Christ such as abraham had to follow a different plan to reach heaven...that is why there is an old and new testament.

Everyman is a sinner, I am too...but Christ allows our sins to be forgiven...living under the new testament today.

that doesnt answer my question of the people before abraham, or of those from other areas of the world that could not through sheer geographic spacing,have known christ. and regardless of exposure to christ'steachings, judaism is still the purest form of the book religions.

[Nevuk]

the nephilim- children of men and angels. theyre all over the book of enoch
I didn't know enoch had a book...

[Love As Arson]

Size doesn't matter but state of mind does...

If your statement is true...which I disagree with...then you're saying nobody is right in the entire universe, and that no one will enter the kingdom of God.
Or, perhaps there is an underlying truth which is simply interpreted differently in the numerous cultures that populate the planet.

[thejetstolehome]

Or, perhaps there is an underlying truth which is simply interpreted differently in the numerous cultures that populate the planet.

yup.

[Shatter590]

I didn't know enoch had a book...

its jewish apocrypha. alot of timesits found in new age sections,but enoch and raziel were the two books of the torah that dealtwith mysticism and the like.they were moved because they can counter to ordained jewish though,despite being asold as the torah itself. enoch reads so close to revelations, its scary.

[Nevuk]

No it doesnt...

and you tink you're funny, but you arent.
Oh, and i'm not trying to be funny today. I'm pissed off, so no humor. But I don't particularly care if you find me humorous or not, I do shit like that to make myself laugh.

[Nevuk]

its jewish apocrypha. alot of timesits found in new age sections,but enoch and raziel were the two books of the torah that dealtwith mysticism and the like.they were moved because they can counter to ordained jewish though,despite being asold as the torah itself. enoch reads so close to revelations, its scary.
Thats tight, next time i'm in the new age section I need to pick up one of those and a copy of the anti-bible.

[Shatter590]

Or, perhaps there is an underlying truth which is simply interpreted differently in the numerous cultures that populate the planet.

thats what i think

[Brokenhill]

What about men who lived 50,000 years ago well before the old testament.

and what about those who live in non-christian nations are through no fualt of their own aren't exposed to Chrsitianity.


The Old Testament is the first covanent God set up with man kind...therfor existing since the begninng of time...

Yet he refined his plan, making it better, which is what the New Testament is...

and according to the bible...all have heard the teachings of Christ...being 2 thousand years...with a less populated earth...every man heard the word of God at that time, before Jesus ascended back into heaven...

..however, those people who ignored the word of God, of course wouldnt teach it to their children...becoming an crazy logn chain of people who didnt get to hear about God and Jesus...but that isnt God's fault...its the people who ignored the teachings.

[thejetstolehome]

Oh, and i'm not trying to be funny today. I'm pissed off, so no humor. But I don't particularly care if you find me humorous or not, I do shit like that to make myself laugh.

so that's why my Shaq reference was taken so seriously. :-/

[Shatter590]

Thats tight, next time i'm in the new age section I need to pick up one of those and a copy of the anti-bible.

ummm,i dunno if you were being serious about the anti-bible thing, but you can find enoch on sacred texts. just googleit,they do a good breakdown and the translation is excellent

[Bingham88]

these people make me ashamed to say that i have faith. they are why i hate the term "christian".

[thejetstolehome]

The Old Testament is the first covanent God set up with man kind...therfor existing since the begninng of time...

Yet he refined his plan, making it better, which is what the New Testament is...

and according to the bible...all have heard the teachings of Christ...being 2 thousand years...with a less populated earth...every man heard the word of God at that time, before Jesus ascended back into heaven...

..however, those people who ignored the word of God, of course wouldnt teach it to their children...becoming an crazy logn chain of people who didnt get to hear about God and Jesus...but that isnt God's fault...its the people who ignored the teachings.

so for not following a book that was written milenia after they were born, they're damned?

[Brokenhill]

Thing is he doesnt know scripture particularly well at all.


I know what i am talking about...but its easy to forget what chapter and verse goes along with every statement I use...because their are thousands and thousands....and me as a growing Christian still has more to learm...

it would be so much easier as well if I you were standing in fron of me...being one on one, rather than here, which is liek 10 on 1.

[Shatter590]

The Old Testament is the first covanent God set up with man kind...therfor existing since the begninng of time...

Yet he refined his plan, making it better, which is what the New Testament is...

and according to the bible...all have heard the teachings of Christ...being 2 thousand years...with a less populated earth...every man heard the word of God at that time, before Jesus ascended back into heaven...

..however, those people who ignored the word of God, of course wouldnt teach it to their children...becoming an crazy logn chain of people who didnt get to hear about God and Jesus...but that isnt God's fault...its the people who ignored the teachings.

you do realize thats impossible,right? if god madehis covenant with abraham,say 5000 years ago in the holyland, then theres no way the previous 40,000 of just plain human culture could have known. nor could it have magically appeared across the world without a conduit. also, by that logic,there would be recordings of it in otherplaces,and there are not

[Brokenhill]

so for not following a book that was written milenia after they were born, they're damned?


They were requred to follow God's plan at that time..because thats when they existed...the new covanent... has no affect on them whatsoever...

[thejetstolehome]

They were requred to follow God's plan at that time..because thats when they existed...the new covanent... has no affect on them whatsoever...

i'm talking about the Old Testament, champ.

[Shatter590]

They were requred to follow God's plan at that time..because thats when they existed...the new covanent... has no affect on them whatsoever...

your interpretations are based on blind faith and literal adherence to religious doctrine. even when it flies in the face of proven fact. it needs to be adaptedto the world welive in,not the world it was written in

[Love As Arson]

and what of Hindus and Buddhists?
Their systems are representative of a truth that permeates the universe as well. It simply manifested itself differently due to the cultural differences.

[Brokenhill]

The world is a lot older than the Bible. You're a complete idiot if you don't accept that.

And you didn't answer my question. Clearly those who lived in say America or Australia in 600AD never expereinced Christianity? Do they go the hell by default.


God created the world...and humans...and everything in the universe.

God spoke to men before the bible was written...after Adam and Eve drove themselves out of the garden of eden, God had to develop a plan for man to still be OK with God...

the first covanent included God's chosen people..the isrealites...the slaves in egypt..lead by Moses...and aaron. The first thing that was written down for them was the 10 commandments...but other things were taught to them pertaining what they could and couldnt eat, etc.

[Nevuk]

ummm,i dunno if you were being serious about the anti-bible thing, but you can find enoch on sacred texts. just googleit,they do a good breakdown and the translation is excellent
I'm serious about wanting a copy to read, for the other perspective. More christians have read it that I know than anyone else. I'm not christian, but that doesn't mean I haven't read the bible, you know what I mean? I'm a satanist, but not satanic (I don't believe in satan, its more of an extreme libertarian personal philosophy/idealogy. Not a religion).

Oh, and you are exactly right on AFG not knowing scripture. I know a person your same age who has studied the bible, thoroughly dissected it, owns hebrew translation thingys, has been to jerusalem, etc. All while he was 15. And he hasn't convinced me either. I'd call him in as backup for you, he likes this sorta thing, but ... he is busy and i no longer feel like doing it, even for the sake of a good spat. However, you will almost never catch him with an inconsistency like I just did with the whips. Or the nep. things.

[Shatter590]

and that truth?

that desire leads to suffering. one must remove themselves from human concern in order to breakfrom it.

[Shatter590]

I'm serious about wanting a copy to read, for the other perspective. More christians have read it that I know than anyone else. I'm not christian, but that doesn't mean I haven't read the bible, you know what I mean? I'm a satanist, but not satanic (I don't believe in satan, its more of an extreme libertarian personal philosophy/idealogy. Not a religion).

Oh, and you are exactly right on AFG not knowing scripture. I know a person your same age who has studied the bible, thoroughly dissected it, owns hebrew translation thingys, has been to jerusalem, etc. All while he was 15. And he hasn't convinced me either. I'd call him in as backup for you, he likes this sorta thing, but ... he is busy and i no longer feel like doing it, even for the sake of a good spat. However, you will almost never catch him with an inconsistency like I just did with the whips. Or the nep. things.

so are you a laVey satanist?embrace carnal desire as a means of being a wholeliving thing?

[Brokenhill]

i'm talking about the Old Testament, champ.


the Old Testament is the things recorded during the times before Christ, starting at the beginning of the world...

God's first plan for man, his first covanent was spread to man, before the writing of the Old Testament,because the writing can't come before the events took place...

[Shatter590]

God created the world...and humans...and everything in the universe.

God spoke to men before the bible was written...after Adam and Eve drove themselves out of the garden of eden, God had to develop a plan for man to still be OK with God...

the first covanent included God's chosen people..the isrealites...the slaves in egypt..lead by Moses...and aaron. The first thing that was written down for them was the 10 commandments...but other things were taught to them pertaining what they could and couldnt eat, etc.

you also havent answered the question yet

the bible doesnot take into account 100K years of human existence,nor the millions of years of evolution that preceeded it.it reflects the dogma of peopleliving in a single territory some 6000 years ago

[thejetstolehome]

God created the world...and humans...and everything in the universe.

God spoke to men before the bible was written...after Adam and Eve drove themselves out of the garden of eden, God had to develop a plan for man to still be OK with God...

the first covanent included God's chosen people..the isrealites...the slaves in egypt..lead by Moses...and aaron. The first thing that was written down for them was the 10 commandments...but other things were taught to them pertaining what they could and couldnt eat, etc.

and what of the people that lived before those "events?"

[Shatter590]

I really dont like Lavey, his ideas will just lead the world to be more selfish than it is already is. I'm much more of a collectivist.

well that was la vey's point- embrace every emotion fully or youreliving a restricted life.

[Brokenhill]

You can't prove that the world is billions of years old...

But, the age of the Earth has no relevance to this discussion. Why everyone brings that in, dont ask me, cuz I dont know...it doesnt pertain to the subject.

[thejetstolehome]

the Old Testament is the things recorded during the times before Christ, starting at the beginning of the world...

God's first plan for man, his first covanent was spread to man, before the writing of the Old Testament,because the writing can't come before the events took place...

the world existed long before the "events" that "happened" in the Old Testament "happened."

[Shatter590]

You can't prove that the world is billions of years old...

But, the age of the Earth has no relevance to this discussion. Why everyone brings that in, dont ask me, cuz I dont know...it doesnt pertain to the subject.

yes it does

and we can.its called radiometric dating

[thejetstolehome]

You can't prove that the world is billions of years old...

But, the age of the Earth has no relevance to this discussion. Why everyone brings that in, dont ask me, cuz I dont know...it doesnt pertain to the subject.

you're the one who brings up "the beginning of time" as being the time when the Old Testament "happened." there was a lot of time before then.

and as to not proving it--i guess we can ignore all the science of the 20th century? fuck the fossil record, fuck all of it, huh?

[Shatter590]

I always read it as do whatever you want no matter how it affects everyone else.

pretty much

respect your enemy,and if he crossesyou,destroyhim

[Brokenhill]

and what of the people that lived before those "events?"



What people? Everyone who has ever lived, has been affected by 1 of the 2 covanents God set up... there is no denying that.

There is nobody who lived before God designed a plan, and their will be no one who lives after his plans will end.

[Nevuk]

so are you a laVey satanist?embrace carnal desire as a means of being a wholeliving thing?
If you mean carnal as base instincts and not just sex, then yeah. I'm not an incredibly extreme one, but it fits me better than any other label I've seen.

[Love As Arson]

and that truth?
Are you inquiring about what the truth is? Or, what truth is it putting forth? If it is the former, I would refer to it as "god". As for the latter, I appreciate their contributions to self-revelation and the rejection of materialism as a mind-set which causes suffering, rather than happiness.

[thejetstolehome]

What people? Everyone who has ever lived, has been affected by 1 of the 2 covanents God set up... there is no denying that.

There is nobody who lived before God designed a plan, and their will be no one who lives after his plans will end.

people lived before the Old Testament was "published" or written or whatever we're calling it.

[Shatter590]

If you mean carnal as base instincts and not just sex, then yeah. I'm not an incredibly extreme one, but it fits me better than any other label I've seen.

lol

more power to you. la vey is...interesting.

[Brokenhill]

I leave with this statement...because its friday and im bored.

SCIENCE IS RARELY 100% ACCURATE, AND HAS MANY FLAWS. SAYS SO EVEN THE SCIENTISTS THEMSELVES.

[Shatter590]

What people? Everyone who has ever lived, has been affected by 1 of the 2 covanents God set up... there is no denying that.

There is nobody who lived before God designed a plan, and their will be no one who lives after his plans will end.

you needto take a class in astronomy and anthropology.

[Shatter590]

I leave with this statement...because its friday and im bored.

SCIENCE IS RARELY 100% ACCURATE, AND HAS MANY FLAWS. SAYS SO EVEN THE SCIENTISTS THEMSELVES.

this is true

but that doesnt mean that it is 0% accurate either

[Shatter590]

ok,i gotta get back to my satanic class (ie, bioanthro)

Ben, benny, wonderful debating alongside you guys. *tip of the hat*

[Shatter590]

it is not true at all there is an endless supply of scientific "theories" which are 100% accurate. Science is everything you see around you, everything you can measure with any instrument imaginable.

i know that

and you know that

but i was aiming for a nice parting shot lol

[thejetstolehome]

I leave with this statement...because its friday and im bored.

SCIENCE IS RARELY 100% ACCURATE, AND HAS MANY FLAWS. SAYS SO EVEN THE SCIENTISTS THEMSELVES.

no, science is not usually 100% accurate. but it has evidence that it has done via experiment. there is no experimentation in faith. the Bible has no standing in how old the world is.

[thejetstolehome]

Yeah cause gravity is such a flawed theory.

i don't know about you, but i definitely floated to class today.

[Nevuk]

lol

more power to you. la vey is...interesting.
It is, I had forgotten the technical term, so i'm just now looking up everything. Essentially, the reason I say I am is that I already followed the tenets of it when i had no clue what it was, so its naturally something I adhere to. What I meant by anti-bible I think was LeVay's book, actually. Only one I don't follow is thanking magic, but I'm not particularly supernaturally inclined to believe that that exists.

[Nevuk]

i don't know about you, but i definitely floated to class today.
Haha, i always love telling people I don't believe in the theory of gravity. When they ask me why i'm not flying i mutter something about "fucking witchcraft holdin us all down" and they shrug and tell me to stop smoking shit.

[IAPAI]

The Old Testament is the first covanent God set up with man kind...therfor existing since the begninng of time...

Yet he refined his plan, making it better, which is what the New Testament is...

and according to the bible...all have heard the teachings of Christ...being 2 thousand years...with a less populated earth...every man heard the word of God at that time, before Jesus ascended back into heaven...

..however, those people who ignored the word of God, of course wouldnt teach it to their children...becoming an crazy logn chain of people who didnt get to hear about God and Jesus...but that isnt God's fault...its the people who ignored the teachings.

In retrospect, do you find a flaw in this justification?

[Love As Arson]

Do you believe in a sentient higher power and an afterlife?
Yes.

[Shatter590]

How can both Hindus and Christians be correct about this higher power?

and the bible clearly states that Jesus is the only salvation so when these people reject Jesus either they are going to hell or you are accepting that a crucial part of the Bible isnt even true.

if i hadto choose,id pick hinduism any day

[Love As Arson]

How can both Hindus and Christians be correct about this higher power?
As I said, the Hindus and Christians are simply cultural interpretation of a deity. Each has a truth value, which leads back to that being. This goes back to my belief that faith/beliefs are simply philosophical frameworks, which humanity uses to discover truth. One may choose to ascribe to whatever system they like. In my case, I prefer the Christian framework.


and the bible clearly states that Jesus is the only salvation so when these people reject Jesus either they are going to hell or you are accepting that a crucial part of the Bible isnt even true.
Universal justification posits that salvation is given to all as a result of Christ's sacrifice. In fact, the early church fathers believed that all would be saved. There are also biblical passages, such as 1 Timothy 4:10, which sugges that as well.

[Love As Arson]

In a general sense that seems acceptable (although being an atheist i of course reject it) but when you enter the specifics of the religion they are too imcompatable for both religions to be correct simultaneously. I understand the hinduism is a polytheist doctrine wrapped in monotheism so i guess you could stretch that angle to your ends, but with regards to reincarnation and the one life doctrine of the Abrahmic religions, surely the two are simply imcopatable. Both parties could enter some kind of afterlife of course regardless of belief, but for that to happen surely their beliefs are so at odds that one or both of them simply has to be wrong?
Any truth, interpreted according to culture, will endure conflicts, but it is my position that there are underlying truths, within which one can derive commonalities.

And there are many biblical passages which state that Jesus is the only path the salvation right? I guess that's thing with the Bible, you can make it mean anything you like within reason, so long as you're reading the correct passages.
You are correct, however, if one reads above, it is my supposition that the differences regarding the truth are irrelevant when one compares the similarities of each prominent religious faith. Take, for example, the dangers of excess and caring for the unfortunate; they are values which one finds in many of the dominant religions today.

[rikfrommf]

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#genealogy

You're telling me every single one of those is completely wrong.

You're brainwashed.

Every single quote is from The King James version.

Seriously prove those contradictions wrong or else you have no case.

God be seen?

Exod. 24:9,10; Amos 9:1; Gen. 26:2; and John 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (Ex. 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen. 32:30)
God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)



No one can SEE God with his eyes face to face. When Moses was speaking to God he couldn't actually see his face, God was too large, but spoke in a whisper, read more than JUST the line you want. And in Gen. Jacob SAID he saw God face to face but he saw a man he was fighting, if you read the new testiment God is in everyone. It wasnt literal.




"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."
"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (James 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1 Chron. 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (Ps. 145:9)
"God is love." (1 John 4:16)



God of the old test vs. god of the new debate. God destroyed because nothing was given to him. Jesus came and died. He was the offering to God, the return of his sons innocent blood for our sins.

Tempts?

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (Gen 22:1)
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James 1:13)



These don't contradict. The word for tempt is the same as test. In this context it means that God tested Abraham by seeing if he would sacrafice his own son to him. read the context.



Judas died how?

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)
"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)



He hung himself and as he fell from the tree he burst asunder. connect the dots?



Ascend to heaven

"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)
"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (John 3:13)



Elijah didn't ascend, he never died, he was brought up to God. Ascention is death and a soul going to heaven after living on earth.



What was Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial?

Before the cock crow - Matthew 26:34
Before the cock crow twice - Mark 14:30



one explicitly states the number, the other doesn't. not a big deal.



thats all I have time for right now.

[TxRepresent]

i wonder whether if the Bible claimed gravity didnt exist but was replaced by some other stupid idea, whether Christians wouldnt believe in it.

:appl:

[TxRepresent]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0679805273.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

This is my bible.

[rikfrommf]

:appl:

I don't get the point? The bible isn't a science book. Do you know anything about Obama?

[rikfrommf]

They are Christians.

No, if anything they are a sect of Judism, they draw heavily from the Old Testiment and ignore the teachings of Christ. Christ said to Love God and your neighbor. They arent doing that. They have to follow those in order to follow christ. you arent christian and I respect that, but they aren't either.

[rikfrommf]

Have you ever read the old testament?

Have you ever read the new? that whole Jesus dying for sins to teach forgiveness thing, its KINDA important...

[TxRepresent]

I don't get the point? The bible isn't a science book. Do you know anything about Obama?

Why do I have to be a Christian to support Obama?

[youcomebeforeyo]

If I ever was to drive past such a group I would back track to the nearest mart, purchase all the eggs avaliable in store, pick up a few close mates and give them what is deserved.

They have the right to say this but it makes me ill seeing it.

[youcomebeforeyo]

Two hours later I have watched the entire doco and assortment of other clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8cN2pB3MCE&mode=related&search=

This is hilarious, a reporter hitting on one member.

[IAPAI]

Two hours later I have watched the entire doco and assortment of other clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8cN2pB3MCE&mode=related&search=

This is hilarious, a reporter hitting on one member.

haha, that was pretty entertaining. Although I think I prefer them being chased by an angry mob, like in this clip:
BZGKx2pTBQc

[lew_1987]

haha yeah both of those videos are good, especially to see their windows getting decked.

[youcomebeforeyo]

The only unfortunate thing about the windscreen smashing video is this is how the group seems to finance itself. All are highly trained attorneys and know the law inside out.

Though they probably didn't manage to capture whoever was responsible with that video footage the group usually profits from such violence against them.

[IAPAI]

The only unfortunate thing about the windscreen smashing video is this is how the group seems to finance itself. All are highly trained attorneys and know the law inside out.

Though they probably didn't manage to capture whoever was responsible with that video footage the group usually profits from such violence against them.

really, I didn't know that. Shit, that is even dirtier.

[Hobbs]

This is exactly why I'm Atheist. Religion fucks you up.

Don't get me wrong, that's not the only reason. I respect religious people.