Anti-Smoking laws.

[the_champ_is_here]

As many of you may or may not know, Governor George Pataki of New York recently passed a bill that bans smoking in indoor private restaurants, bars, and pretty much everything. Since the bill went into effect, as many as 7 local bars and restaurants have gone out of business. Since I live fairly close to The PA/NY border, many people are taking their business to Pennslyvania. The same is Happening in New Jersey, Connecticut and elsewhere. This is horrible for local and state-wide economies, and makes me wonder whether Politicians think about the complete effects of the laws they create.

[NOFXdesendents5]

hahaha, maybe for you

[Ronin]

In Canada, smoking has been banned in public places in a number of cities (including two cities I live in). As far as I know, it hasn't adversely affected any businesses.

Second hand smoke causes cancer, and people have the right to expect that they wont be exposed to hazardous chemicals in the places they frequent.

[Ronin]

Originally posted by cal1082
I heard the other day on talk radio that they looked at people who lived in a house with a smoker and people who didnt and they're risk of lung cancer was not signifcantly diffrent. I dont know how valid the study was but thats just what i heard.

Actually I spoke a little rashly. There's alot of solid evidence that second hand smoke does cause cancer, but there are also some studies that go against that, so the jury is technically still out.

I think somewhere here in Canada, a prison inmate is suing the government because they forced him to live with smokers, and now he has lung cancer. This case might put an end to smoking in public places in Canada.

[NOFXdesendents5]

Originally posted by Ronin
...There's alot of solid evidence that second hand smoke does cause cancer, but there are also some studies that go against that, so the jury is technically still out...

Dude, your saying there is intelligent evidence to support the idea that breathing in carbon monoxide is not harmful to your lungs. No offense intended but delete your two posts and come back to this thread with a semi-decent defense.

[the_champ_is_here]

Yes but the vast majority of closed places have been bars. I can't think of one person who goes to a bar not expecting second hand smoke. They wouldn't go to the bar if they were really opposed to second hand smoke. And it's not like most of the people that went to these bars/restaurants weren't smokers. There must have been an incredible drop-off in business in order to force closings in as little as two weeks.

[Ronin]

Originally posted by NOFXdesendents5
Dude, your saying there is intelligent evidence to support the idea that breathing in carbon monoxide is not harmful to your lungs. No offense intended but delete your two posts and come back to this thread with a semi-decent defense.

There is SOME evidence that second hand smoke doesn't cause cancer. It's DEFINITELY harmful to your lungs, that's never been up for debate. But there are even more studies (and better studies) that indicate that it does cause cancer. The only reason I threw out the disclaimer is because the findings aren't yet on completely solid ground.

But if you know anything about second hand smoke, you'd know it's actually more carcinogenic than first hand smoke. When someone inhales a cigarette, they inhale the main stream, which is heated to so many hundred degrees, which burns off some of the toxins. People inhaling second hand smoke are inhaling the side stream, which still has those toxins in it.

And as for people going to bars and expecting smoke, I don't know about that... I can't speak for the US, but here is Canada people (including many smokers) enjoy the smoke free bars, it's a way better atmosphere. I go to bars to drink, not inhale second hand smoke. Now that smokers are in the minority, they can't really dictate where they can light up. This is the best way to eradicate smoking, by changing social norms.

[yeat182]

i think its great law, why should everyone in a resteraunt be subjected to someone's filthy habit. cigarettes are disgusting and many people can't stand to be around them at all, especially when eating. there is no reason why you should have to smoke in a resteraunt. and the old way, with smoking and non-smoking sections was a joke, i could be in the non-smoking section, and the booth or table right next to me is in the smoking section...how does that possibly help me out? you think the smoke knows where it can and can't go within the confines of the room? show a little self control and smoke when you leave the reseraunt, smoke before you get there, smoke in your car...if you really can't go a whole meal with out a cigarette then you have serious addiction issues, and trying to make the reseraunts and society enable them is your problem not ours.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Ronin

And as for people going to bars and expecting smoke, I don't know about that... I can't speak for the US, but here is Canada people (including many smokers) enjoy the smoke free bars, it's a way better atmosphere. I go to bars to drink, not inhale second hand smoke. Now that smokers are in the minority, they can't really dictate where they can light up. This is the best way to eradicate smoking, by changing social norms.


i agree, and i hate going to the bars and coming home reeking of stale smoke...it's fucking disgusting.

[SonnyPunk]

Both sides have good points...but when I go to a bar or a club in the city I like to smoke, and I have no problem going outside. But when I go to a big club like Club Exit they wont let you back in if you go outside which sucks.
Bars in New York are definately losing alot of money...too bad they cant figure out a way to please both sides.

[Clarett'sGreyGoose]

Originally posted by Balderdash
Yes but the vast majority of closed places have been bars. I can't think of one person who goes to a bar not expecting second hand smoke. They wouldn't go to the bar if they were really opposed to second hand smoke. And it's not like most of the people that went to these bars/restaurants weren't smokers. There must have been an incredible drop-off in business in order to force closings in as little as two weeks.

Mike, I'm gonna have to put my 2 cents in on this, seeing as how I too, am from NY.

You're right. People walk into bars knowing there is going to be smokers in there. They walk in the doors KNOWING they're going to be breathing in second hand smoke. That's why in bars, smoking should still be allowed. If you went into any bar around here and looked at the people sitting at the bar itself....9 out of 10 of them will be smoking or are smokers. In the long run, New York will have few bars left in business, because the people that smoke will just go out, buy alcohol themselves, invite all the people they want to their house, and smoke all they want, in the comfort of their own home.

The only places in NY you can smoke anymore are private clubs, example: the 3F(Fin, Feather, Fur) Sportsman's Club that my dad is a member of. Since it's a membership club, you can smoke at the bar or in the building, with no restrictions. So now, basically, if you want to smoke and drink at a bar, you have to pay for it.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by PlaysWithFire
Mike, I'm gonna have to put my 2 cents in on this, seeing as how I too, am from NY.

You're right. People walk into bars knowing there is going to be smokers in there. They walk in the doors KNOWING they're going to be breathing in second hand smoke. That's why in bars, smoking should still be allowed. If you went into any bar around here and looked at the people sitting at the bar itself....9 out of 10 of them will be smoking or are smokers. In the long run, New York will have few bars left in business, because the people that smoke will just go out, buy alcohol themselves, invite all the people they want to their house, and smoke all they want, in the comfort of their own home.

The only places in NY you can smoke anymore are private clubs, example: the 3F(Fin, Feather, Fur) Sportsman's Club that my dad is a member of. Since it's a membership club, you can smoke at the bar or in the building, with no restrictions. So now, basically, if you want to smoke and drink at a bar, you have to pay for it.

i don't go to a bar to inhale someone else's cigarette smoke, i go there to drink. there is no reason that someone should have to put up with smoke. if you need a cigarette so bad that it can't wait until you get home, go outside and smoke. no one else should have to suffer based on your addiction.

and the bars will still thrive because it is a social atmosphere. you can go to the liquor store and buy all the alcohol you want and have a party at your house, but no one is going to want to do that every night of the week, nor will they want to do it because many people go to the bars to meet new people, which won't really happen when you invite people you already know to your house.

[Ronin]

And you wont get the girls to dress the same way at your house...

Bars don't exist to cater to smokers, they exist to cater to drinkers. And the bars in NY will recover quickly, just as they did here in Canada, because there's no real substitute.

[Clarett'sGreyGoose]

Originally posted by Ronin
And you wont get the girls to dress the same way at your house...

Bars don't exist to cater to smokers, they exist to cater to drinkers. And the bars in NY will recover quickly, just as they did here in Canada, because there's no real substitute.

haha, i like your first point. but the 2nd point is valid. sooner or later people will go back to bars and drink because thats what they have to do. i just think that they should have like a smoking "room" or what have you, some place in the building completely isolated from the bar itself. Like have one of those Smoke Eater things on the ceiling and windows in there and stuff...you understand?

I only took a stance against this because I know a few people who run bars and who work at them and know they're not getting as much money as they used to or as much as they need.

[Ronin]

i just think that they should have like a smoking "room" or what have you, some place in the building completely isolated from the bar itself. Like have one of those Smoke Eater things on the ceiling and windows in there and stuff...you understand?

I agree, a smoking room away from everything else would be fine.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Ronin
I agree, a smoking room away from everything else would be fine.

yeah, i wouldn't have a problem with that, i just don't like when they have a smoking section right next to the non-smoking section and there is nothing that keeps the smoke out of the non-smoking section.

[Clarett'sGreyGoose]

Originally posted by yeat182
yeah, i wouldn't have a problem with that, i just don't like when they have a smoking section right next to the non-smoking section and there is nothing that keeps the smoke out of the non-smoking section.

that is honestly, retarted. i have always wondered why buildings are built like that.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by PlaysWithFire
that is honestly, retarted. i have always wondered why buildings are built like that.

seriously, like the smoke knows where it is allowed to go?

[Clarett'sGreyGoose]

Originally posted by yeat182
seriously, like the smoke knows where it is allowed to go?

i'm sure they know when they build them that the smoke's going to drift into the non-smoking section.

on an unrelated note, i should post here more often, but the extreme intelligence of most of you scares me.

[Alk3DCStars71]

I guess I'm split both ways. On one side, this is supposed to be a free country, and if a person doesn't smoke, and doesn't want to breathe in secondhand smoke, then why do they go somewhere that they know allows smoking and breathe it in? If they feel so passionately about anti-secondhand smoking, then they should avoid it, or go somewhere where they won't breathe it. Smokers are Americans too, they choose to smoke, and it's a free country, so they can. But is it such a free country when the government starts making laws against smoking in public property, which is supposed to be open to everyone? I think that rather ban smoking, governments should make facilities to accomadate smokers, that way they won't feel excluded from other people. Maybe they should have smoking only bars, or smoke rooms for restaurants.

On the other hand, I come from a long line of smokers, I've had to breathe that crap in every day, without a choice. My parents always told me that if I didn't like their smoking, I could move out. I really hate smelling like cigarettes because people give me dirty looks, like I've been smoking in a room all day long, and I'm contaminating their air. I can't help it, it's not my fault. Plus, I hate going to shows where everyone is smoking, and throwing their butts on the ground, or in the air. I've been burned twice by careless cigarette tossers. I think that clubs shouldn't allow smoking at all-ages shows, just because there are kids under eighteen there. They're young and impressionable, and when they see older people smoking they think it's cool, and they should actually see both sides of smokers.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Alk3DCStars71
I guess I'm split both ways. On one side, this is supposed to be a free country, and if a person doesn't smoke, and doesn't want to breathe in secondhand smoke, then why do they go somewhere that they know allows smoking and breathe it in? If they feel so passionately about anti-secondhand smoking, then they should avoid it, or go somewhere where they won't breathe it. Smokers are Americans too, they choose to smoke, and it's a free country, so they can. But is it such a free country when the government starts making laws against smoking in public property, which is supposed to be open to everyone? I think that rather ban smoking, governments should make facilities to accomadate smokers, that way they won't feel excluded from other people. Maybe they should have smoking only bars, or smoke rooms for restaurants.


you're correct, it is a free country. why should I, as a non-smoker, have to deal with someone else's filty addiction? I have every right to go out to dinner in a restaraunt, and i shouldn't have to breathe in the toxic fumes of someone else's ciggarette simply because they can't go 10 minutes without a nicotine fix. if you need a cigarette so badly, take it outside. It isn't the rest of the worlds fault that you are addicted, we shouldn't have to accomodate your addiction. You wouldn't want people booting up on heroine in a restaraunt, or snorting coke in the movie theater because they need their fix, why should we all have to put up with someones smoke? A smoker can go to a restartaunt and not smoke, and everyone is the healthier for it. I shouldn't have to avoid places because i don't want to inhale second hand smoke.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by yeat182
you're correct, it is a free country. why should I, as a non-smoker, have to deal with someone else's filty addiction? I have every right to go out to dinner in a restaraunt,

shouldn't that restaraunt owner have the freedom to pick whether or not he wants smokers or non-smokers for his business........

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
shouldn't that restaraunt owner have the freedom to pick whether or not he wants smokers or non-smokers for his business........

well, its a health issue, so i guess not. i mean, they can't decide whether or not they want to allow rats in the kitchen or cockroaches in dinning room. I mean, i have no problem if they have a smoking room, sealed from the non-smoking section, but the way they do it now, where there is nothing seperating the smokers from the non-smokers is ridiculous. how can you sit in the non-smoking section and come home reeking of butts? it doesn't make sense.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by yeat182
well, its a health issue, so i guess not. i mean, they can't decide whether or not they want to allow rats in the kitchen or cockroaches in dinning room. I mean, i have no problem if they have a smoking room, sealed from the non-smoking section, but the way they do it now, where there is nothing seperating the smokers from the non-smokers is ridiculous. how can you sit in the non-smoking section and come home reeking of butts? it doesn't make sense.

If its a health issue only then most of the food that most restaurant serve wouldn't be allowed......and I agree with you that smoking section don't work, but its stupid to make bars smoke free when the whole point of going to a bar is to smoke and have a beer......so I think it should be left up to the owners to choose the clientele they want, and the law should be one or the other (smoking or non smoking), no combinations, and if you don’t like the way the restaurant is set up then you have to go to another one.......

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
If its a health issue only then most of the food that most restaurant serve wouldn't be allowed......and I agree with you that smoking section don't work, but its stupid to make bars smoke free when the whole point of going to a bar is to smoke and have a beer......so I think it should be left up to the owners to choose the clientele they want, and the law should be one or the other (smoking or non smoking), no combinations, and if you don’t like the way the restaurant is set up then you have to go to another one.......

well, its a health issue because it doesn't affect only you, it affects everyone in the room. a cheeseburger isn't going to make anyone second hand fat. And to me, the point of going to the bars is to drink and hang out with people. if you can't control your addiction for the few hours you're there why should everyone in the room have to put up with it? i guess its best to leave it up to the owners, but i think if they are going to have a combo, then they need a sealed area for smoking, either that or have it straight smoking or non-smoking.

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
If its a health issue only then most of the food that most restaurant serve wouldn't be allowed......and I agree with you that smoking section don't work, but its stupid to make bars smoke free when the whole point of going to a bar is to smoke and have a beer......so I think it should be left up to the owners to choose the clientele they want, and the law should be one or the other (smoking or non smoking), no combinations, and if you don’t like the way the restaurant is set up then you have to go to another one.......
I agree with you, not on the unhealthy food part however, because it solely affects the person eating it...

I say let the owner decide, because some people want to smoke...I personally am not one of them, nor plan on it either, but it is a free country, and it is a legal drug. But I understand that owners dont want to have their place filled with smoke and some customers dont want to breathe in a pack a meal, so thats fair too...

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by yeat182
well, its a health issue because it doesn't affect only you, it affects everyone in the room. a cheeseburger isn't going to make anyone second hand fat. And to me, the point of going to the bars is to drink and hang out with people. if you can't control your addiction for the few hours you're there why should everyone in the room have to put up with it? i guess its best to leave it up to the owners, but i think if they are going to have a combo, then they need a sealed area for smoking, either that or have it straight smoking or non-smoking.

society as a how pay a high price for fat people, so its not just an individuals problem.......but i know thats a strech when compaired to smoking......but i'm also glad you see that it is up to an owner to choice who they want as clients........

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
society as a how pay a high price for fat people, so its not just an individuals problem.......but i know thats a strech when compaired to smoking......but i'm also glad you see that it is up to an owner to choice who they want as clients........

another reason its a health issue is because the waiters/waitresses/bartenders etc. that work there are exposed to smoke all day, and they don't have a choice in the matter, they have to work through it, and its very unhealthy for them. In a perfect world it would be up to the owner, and i don't really have a problem with it now, but i'm not complaining that they've banned smoking in bars and restaruants. in public buildings however, it should be smoke free.

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
society as a how pay a high price for fat people, so its not just an individuals problem.......but i know thats a strech when compaired to smoking......but i'm also glad you see that it is up to an owner to choice who they want as clients........ I dont know if that last statement was sarcastic in a sense, but just in case, its not the owners choosing their costomers, its the customers choosing the resturaunts, they dont have to smoke in the resturaunt....

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by yeat182
another reason its a health issue is because the waiters/waitresses/bartenders etc. that work there are exposed to smoke all day, and they don't have a choice in the matter, they have to work through it, and its very unhealthy for them. .

how do you figure that......no one is forced to work any place they don't want, and working in a restaurant is good money especially in a bar and grill.......if these people are worried about there health and they still wnat to work in the food industry they should go work at wendy's or burger king.......

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
how do you figure that......no one is forced to work any place they don't want, and working in a restaurant is good money especially in a bar and grill.......if these people are worried about there health and they still wnat to work in the food industry they should go work at wendy's or burger king.......
i would agree with that statement as well....

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
how do you figure that......no one is forced to work any place they don't want, and working in a restaurant is good money especially in a bar and grill.......if these people are worried about there health and they still wnat to work in the food industry they should go work at wendy's or burger king.......

you are proteced from harmful work environments, that's like saying people who get maimed at factories should have known it was dangerous and that its their fault because they could have worked somewhere else. most waiters and waitresses take whatever job they can, and you said it yourself its good money, much more that Wendy's. they shouldn't have to put their health in jeopardy in order to make a honest wage.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by yeat182
you are proteced from harmful work environments, that's like saying people who get maimed at factories should have known it was dangerous and that its their fault because they could have worked somewhere else. most waiters and waitresses take whatever job they can, and you said it yourself its good money, much more that Wendy's. they shouldn't have to put their health in jeopardy in order to make a honest wage.

harmful work environments happen all the time thats like saying a fireman shouldn't climb a ladder because he might fall, or police man shouldn't chase a criminal because he might get shot, or a builder shouldn't build homes because a nail or a hammer or a wall or beem or anything might hit him, or a doctor shouldn't practice medicine because he could catch a dissease or a cold.....there is always some dangers that come with every job especially those that pay well.....hell next year i'm going to start working at the burlington/santa fe railroad hub and there will be all can of dangers that i face daily, particularly in the first 2 years of work because i will be a grunt.....but hell $60,000 plus starting pay is well worth it..........

[Ronin]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
how do you figure that......no one is forced to work any place they don't want, and working in a restaurant is good money especially in a bar and grill.......if these people are worried about there health and they still wnat to work in the food industry they should go work at wendy's or burger king.......

Firemen take risks because they have to. Workers in a factory use dangerous machinery because it's the only way the job can get done. Smoking is a luxury, and you can still be an effective waiter/waitress without the smoke. Restaurants/bars do not exist because people need a place to smoke, they are for eating and drinking. People who work in a cigar bar aren't going to complain about the smoke, because obviously that's a part of the job. When I go to a restaurant, I'm going there for the food, not the cancer. If I wanted cancer, I'd swim in the Hudson River.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
harmful work environments happen all the time thats like saying a fireman shouldn't climb a ladder because he might fall, or police man shouldn't chase a criminal because he might get shot, or a builder shouldn't build homes because a nail or a hammer or a wall or beem or anything might hit him, or a doctor shouldn't practice medicine because he could catch a dissease or a cold.....there is always some dangers that come with every job especially those that pay well.....hell next year i'm going to start working at the burlington/santa fe railroad hub and there will be all can of dangers that i face daily, particularly in the first 2 years of work because i will be a grunt.....but hell $60,000 plus starting pay is well worth it..........

those are totally different, fighting fires is dangerous, that is part of the job, you realize that going in, and that is why you are there. same with a cop. a waiter isn't there to inhale second hand smoke 8 hours a day, they are there to serve food. smoke has nothing to do with the job you are trying to preform, chasing a criminal or fighting a fire IS your job. and carpenters know how to hammer and nail properly and when something happens its an accident, they aren't exposed to nails being driven through their hands 8 hours a day.

and the job you are taking, those dangers are part of the job, you have to face them in order to complete your work, second hand smoke isn't part of the job, you could say that a waiter might burn his hand on a hot plate or somehting and that is a risk they run, or a chef might cut his finger off with a knife, but not smoke.

[Shatter590]

personally, there are risks to any job reagrdless of whatever you choose to do. But smoking shouldn't be one. Honestly, what purpose does smoking serve? Does smoking cigarettes improve your health? Does it make you smarter? Does it help you socially? No. What DOES it do then? It KILLS YOU. That is proven already. It's one of those things in society that only serves as a way to kill the user. Even alcohol has positive effects in small doses. But not cigarettes.

I applaud this new anti smoking initiative. I used to get tired of going to shoot pool and having to inhale those toxic fumes. I don't smoke, I never have and I never will, and I am certainly disgusted by people who think that because they elect to slowly poison themselves feel that everyone else should cater to them. Smoke on your own time, in your own property, your home, your cars, just leave the air clean for the rest of us.

And to those who gripe about what I may say, learn from my father. He smoked. He got cancer and emphysema from the smoking. He suffered and died from it too. Where did smoking and all these smokers rights get him? Right into the fucking ground. I refuse to make the same mistake, and I won;t put up with people who whine and moan about how they can't smoke in bars or places. THEN JUST DON'T LEAVE THE FUCKING HOUSE.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by yeat182
those are totally different, fighting fires is dangerous, that is part of the job, you realize that going in, and that is why you are there. same with a cop. a waiter isn't there to inhale second hand smoke 8 hours a day, they are there to serve food. smoke has nothing to do with the job you are trying to preform, chasing a criminal or fighting a fire IS your job. and carpenters know how to hammer and nail properly and when something happens its an accident, they aren't exposed to nails being driven through their hands 8 hours a day.

and the job you are taking, those dangers are part of the job, you have to face them in order to complete your work, second hand smoke isn't part of the job, you could say that a waiter might burn his hand on a hot plate or somehting and that is a risk they run, or a chef might cut his finger off with a knife, but not smoke.

when a person goes into a job, at a bar, they know exactly what there getting into, they know that theres smoking, drinking, maybe fighting, and a larger male to female ratio.....they know this and if they don't except it they shouldn't take the job and go to a smoke free restaurant that may or may not provide the same tips......

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by Ronin
. When I go to a restaurant, I'm going there for the food, not the cancer. If I wanted cancer, I'd swim in the Hudson River.

thats why there should n't be a combination of smoking and nonsmoking restuarants........it should either be one or the other.......but its not right to outlaw one completely.........

[yeat182]

so because a few people want to poison themselves you shouldn't be able to work a job that pays good money? that is their addiction, it shouldn't be everyones. why should they put their own employees health in jeopardy?

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by yeat182
so because a few people want to poison themselves you shouldn't be able to work a job that pays good money? that is their addiction, it shouldn't be everyones. why should they put their own employees health in jeopardy?

lifes not allways the fairest thing.......

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
lifes not allways the fairest thing.......

exactly, sometimes you can't smoke a cigarette.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by yeat182
exactly, sometimes you can't smoke a cigarette.

yep exactly, sometimes to make more money you have to except a bit of personal danger........

[Ronin]

So there are two conflicting thoughts here

a) People working in bars/restaurants should expect to inhale smoke as an occupational hazard and should simply deal with it or get another job.

b) People working in bars/restaurants are there to serve drinks/food and not to inhale smoke.


So which would be the easier compromise here? Either we could;

a) Ask patrons of bars/restaurants to either step outside, or to a small, seperate smoking area (contained from the rest of the patrons) when they want to smoke

or

b) Keep things as is, and pay the hospital bills for the waiter/waitress who gets cancer.


Really, is it such a problem to ask people not to smoke in a restaurant? We've been asking them not to smoke in every other type of institution, what makes restaurants/bars exempt? Like I said, their reason for being is NOT as a venue for cigarette smoking. A cigar bar would be different.

[yeat182]

yes exactly, just because it is expected doesn't mean it should be accepted, there is no reason why some high school kid that needs a part time job should have to inhale smoke all day just because some asshole is addicted to it. there is absolutly no reason for it. it isn't part of the job, and it isn't even comparable to other occupational hazards.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by Ronin

Really, is it such a problem to ask people not to smoke in a restaurant? We've been asking them not to smoke in every other type of institution, what makes restaurants/bars exempt? Like I said, their reason for being is NOT as a venue for cigarette smoking. A cigar bar would be different.


Because a bar is different from other institutions.... the whole concept behind them are vices....and just cause some asshole (s) doesn't like smoking doesn't mean that we need to totally prohibited it.....if the owners, the patrons and the employees all know that its a smoking establishment and except that its a smoking establishment then there should be no problem with it.....

[SonnyPunk]

Why cant they just have seperate types of bars...some were smoking is allowed, and others where it is prohibited...then the smokers have a place to go and the people who complain wont have to worry.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
Because a bar is different from other institutions.... the whole concept behind them are vices....and just cause some asshole (s) doesn't like smoking doesn't mean that we need to totally prohibited it.....if the owners, the patrons and the employees all know that its a smoking establishment and except that its a smoking establishment then there should be no problem with it.....

except that not all employees and patrons accept it.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by yeat182
except that not all employees and patrons accept it.

maybe the combination of both....which i have said im against.....but if we had the rule that it was either one or the other (smoking or non smoking) and a person went in to a place they didn't accept or got a job at a place they didn't accept then its there fault and they should have left or quit or gone down the street to the applebees that doesn't allow smoking........people are smart enough to leave a place they don't like.......

[Ronin]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
Because a bar is different from other institutions.... the whole concept behind them are vices....and just cause some asshole (s) doesn't like smoking doesn't mean that we need to totally prohibited it.....if the owners, the patrons and the employees all know that its a smoking establishment and except that its a smoking establishment then there should be no problem with it.....


But smokers are now very much in the minority. Majority rule, right? These laws have been passed because of public support for such bans. People are sick of dealing with smoke in venues where it doesn't need to be.

And it's not that "asshole's" such as myself have a problem with the habits of others, I have a problem with being exposed to some of the most noxious toxins and carcinogens that we've ever created. I didn't order formaldehyde with my burger.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by Ronin

And it's not that "asshole's" such as myself have a problem with the habits of others, .

that was intended more for yeats who called every smoker (which im included in) an asshole......sorry if it came off as i was refering to you....but i wasn't

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by Ronin
People are sick of dealing with smoke in venues where it doesn't need to be.


but a bar is a venue, probably the only one, where smoking is actually an excepted norm...go into any bar, not a restuarant, and you will most likely see more people smoking then not......

[Ronin]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
that was intended more for yeats who called every smoker (which im included in) an asshole......sorry if it came off as i was refering to you....but i wasn't

All good, intent gets distorted over the internet. I don't think smokers are assholes (except for my ex-girlfriend).

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by Ronin
But smokers are now very much in the minority. Majority rule, right?




A 1999 study released Thursday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said 23.5 percent of adults -- about 46 million people -- are regular smokers.

i would say that number is big then a small minority.....


oh ya and ALL woman can be assholes not just ex's......

[yeat182]

i didn't mean to say all smokers are assholes, obviously they aren't, all my friends smoke and i like them still. i was refering more to the asshole that blows smoke in your direction while eating or drinking or whatever...sorry.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Ronin
I didn't order formaldehyde with my burger.

"um, i ordered a Zima, not Emphazyma..."