Why Racism in America will never be resolved

[Nevuk]

Alright, I'll open with a little story. Keep in mind, I live in the south.

I work in a fast food restaraunt, and if we have no customers around we play music. (I'm unsure as to whether this thread belonged in here or not). One of my coworkers decides to play some country music by a guy named David Allen Coan(sp?). I was rather shocked. Essentially, the person took old country classics and turned them into racist diatribes. Extremely racist. He had an entire mix CD of this stuff, and I really could not think of a thing to say to him. Eventually, I told him "I'm not racist, but I don't care, but I'm putting in some weird shit after this", and later on in the day put in the Blood Brothers. He told me a little story about one of the songs, he said his mother had played it to him when he was younger, but that he hadn't understood it at the time.

No one else where I worked batted an eye, well, my manager rolled his eyes and said "Dumbasses from New Orleans", but that was about it. My coworker's comment was "They can call us honky's but we can't call them" and well, you know what he said. My reply was "Why would they call me a honky, I'm not even white" (I'm mostly white, but I can pass for native american).
Anyways, this thread is my reply to those who say that racism is no longer an issue. We overact way too much to small issues, but when this still can occur, and none of the 8 people working comment negatively, it is a definite issue. And racism is definitely passed down from generation to generation in my area. Is this a political issue or a social one, or is there even a difference?

(And does anyone have any comments on what to do in similar situations?)

[Smash Adams]

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/50979/

when it gets to be like this it's political, I hope this is an appropriate response but people need to be aware

[Sleepaway]

That would make me laugh, if anything.

[Nevuk]

That would make me laugh, if anything.
I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry, as I actually think the guy is decent, one of the only people who I actually enjoy working with. (Oddly enough, he liked the Blood Brothers)

[Sleepaway]

His racial views shouldn't affect whether you like him or not.

[Nevuk]

What? The fuck are you talking about? Thats one of the few things that is indicative about a person. Racism is directly linked to low iq and etc., few racists are smart.
Its not like I'm going to up and hate the guy all of a sudden, but I'll be a lot more cautious about becoming better friends with him.

[Love As Arson]

There is no difference, for the political, social and economic are all part of one system. The ideology will continue to persist so long as we have a system which benefits from making individuals view one another as "the other", therefore preventing us from struggling together. The most salient example I can think of is the way in which we deal with the Middle East and the demonisation of illegal immigrants, both of which serve corporate ends, and alienate us from the groups in question.

[Sleepaway]

Be realistic.

Would you befriend a Hitler loving, Jew hating holocaust denier?


If he was a nice guy who I got along well with then sure.

[Nevuk]

Yep, he is a very nice guy, which is why I still got along with him after that.

[Nevuk]

This is what I think of the matter, possibly a dark truth. It's in humanity's nature to dislike those different from themselves.

[Sleepaway]

This is what I think of the matter, possibly a dark truth. It's in humanity's nature to dislike those different from themselves.


True dat.

[Love As Arson]

Capitalism is not the cause of racism though, and while it certianly benefits and contributes to its continuation there is definately a case to be made that it would continue to thrive long after its demise.
There was prejudice prior to capitalism, there is no doubt, however, it was predicated upon nationalism primarily. It was not until much later that the belief that skin color became a determinate for inferiority. This was necessary in order to reconcile the ideas of the Enlightenment, that is, all men are deserving of rights, and the necessity of slave labor. So, it was not as though color was always a determinate; in fact, there were black slave owners, but economic necessity created the invention of race. I concede that you are correct that there wwould be a struggle with racism after capitalism, and it would be far simpler to deal with, as it would not have a basis in the foundation of the new society.

[Nevuk]

Well, this next part is a comparison that may go further than is warranted. Racists are proven to have a lower IQ (not saying this is a true measure of intelligence, but...) than non racists. My theory on this is that this dislike is instinctual, and the more intelligent you are, the less you rely upon instincts.

[concernedparent]

Well, this next part is a comparison that may go further than is warranted. Racists are proven to have a lower IQ (not saying this is a true measure of intelligence, but...) than non racists. My theory on this is that this dislike is instinctual, and the more intelligent you are, the less you rely upon instincts.
Could you please link me to this statistic? I've never heard of such a thing.

[Sleepaway]

Well, this next part is a comparison that may go further than is warranted. Racists are proven to have a lower IQ (not saying this is a true measure of intelligence, but...) than non racists. My theory on this is that this dislike is instinctual, and the more intelligent you are, the less you rely upon instincts.


I want to see some evidence for that.

[CROMagnon]

This is what I think of the matter, possibly a dark truth. It's in humanity's nature to dislike those different from themselves.

i think the core issue is fear and creating a way to deal with that fear.
after all, you don't fear what you don't believe to be threatening.

[Nevuk]

I've heard it several times, and read something about a study a few months ago on it. If you are talking about the racists + low IQ thing, that is. The rest I just pulled out of my ass. I can go hunt down a link, if you want, but ... can't you use google?

[Nevuk]

Here :
http://www.clubs.psu.edu/up/sayar/riqs.htm
And it has a shitlooooad of sources if you doubt it.

Edit : Apparently, females are less likely to be racist than males in addition.

[concernedparent]

I've heard it several times, and read something about a study a few months ago on it. If you are talking about the racists + low IQ thing, that is. The rest I just pulled out of my ass. I can go hunt down a link, if you want, but ... can't you use google?
My searching has led me to one website which does not seem valid in the slightest of ways. I really doubt there's a valid statistic on this.

[Sleepaway]

Where do you BNP get all their support?

Council Estates.

Not exactly the bastien of enlightenment and intelligence.


Touche.

I hate the British working class.

[concernedparent]

I like them so long as i never have to talk to any of them. They are too stupid to make conversation with. Fortunately i live amongst students.
Just be flattered that you get to talk to British people in general. That's a luxury many Americans would crave, myself included.

[Sleepaway]

Haha, fortunately I live in one of the most afluent areas of the UK.

[Nevuk]

My searching has led me to one website which does not seem valid in the slightest of ways. I really doubt there's a valid statistic on this.
Quoted from the website I posted. "Studies going back over 50 years have repeatedly arrived at the same conclusion -- racists have lower IQs than non-racists. The average intelligence quotient (IQ) of all members of the human race is 100 on the Stanford-Binet scale, as illustrated in the bell curves in the figure below. The average IQ of racists is up to 4 IQ points less than this (Montagu 1952 & 1988, Allport 1946, Frenkel-Brunswick and Sanford 1945)."

They even provide sources. Of course, up to means that it could be the 1952 or 1945 study. However, one of those studies was recent.

[Love As Arson]

There is so a fine line between nationalism and racism. Jew's were discriminated against well before Capitalism although this was more to do with religious differences. Also before Capitalism there was not the melting pot of races we have in the modern world, without which it is difficult to have any formm of racism.
Each suppose inferiority on arbitrary terms, but they also serve the individuals holding the power. That is, in the competitive world before capitalism, it was necessary to make other nations the enemy. One could argue the suppression of the Jews, while having a religious aspect, also had its foundation in preserving power.


Valid point although i suggest that the racism came first and so it was uneccesary to redefine othe rraces as inferior as they were already considered so.
I agree insofar as the slavery was initiated first, then the ideological justification was developed.


Women were considered inferior to men and were excluded from the enlightenment as well. However the role of women was not redefined it was just naturally assumed they were not included in this revolution. The closest you get is Mary Wollenstonecraft and a few other but they were very much on the fringes.
The oppression of women goes farther back into history, around the time class society arose and the monogamous family was institutionalised as a means for the male to pass on property to a child he was certain was his own.


In my opinion it was taken for granted by this stage that other races were inferior and no re-defining was necessary.
It was necessary to redefine the properties of superiority, so that it was no longer determined by this ethnocentric, narcissistic basis, rather, biological features became the justification for repression.

[concernedparent]

You get in good in America because so long as you dont live in Florida, the only Brits you will ever see are the more wealthy and better educated ones.
I've never met a British person in my life. I don't think I'd like it though, I'd just feel extremely inferior throughout the whole conversation because they'd have a British accent.

[YOUWONTKNOW]

Honestly racism is everywhere. I mean it doesnt matter what color skin you are because its a two way street. Ive had a few situations where african americans have said really racist things against white ppl or another race etc. I mean there are guys like al sharpton going after what he calls "racism" yet in reality many of these cases are reverse racism. For example a few months ago a white guy got gun down in harlem bc of the color of his skin. Did you see sharpton running to rescue that injustice. NOPE! so its everywhere and i doubt it will ever end. Im not rascist but i am sick of ppl playing the rasicm card all the time.

[Sleepaway]

I've never met a British person in my life. I don't think I'd like it though, I'd just feel extremely inferior throughout the whole conversation because they'd have a British accent.


You would probably have a hard time understanding most of us because the only "British" accent you ever hear are those who speak like upper class Londoners.

[concernedparent]

You would probably have a hard time understanding most of us because the only "British" accent you ever hear are those who speak like upper class Londoners.
Yeah probably, I could probably figure it out though.

[Love As Arson]

Honestly racism is everywhere. I mean it doesnt matter what color skin you are because its a two way street. Ive had a few situations where african americans have said really racist things against white ppl or another race etc.
Yes, and their racism must be addressed as well. However, the reason that white racism is depicted as more hurtful is due to the fact that they represent the dominant culture.

I mean there are guys like al sharpton going after what he calls "racism" yet in reality many of these cases are reverse racism.
There is no such thing as reverse racism.
For example a few months ago a white guy got gun down in harlem bc of the color of his skin.
Provide me with a link to this story.
Did you see sharpton running to rescue that injustice. NOPE! so its everywhere and i doubt it will ever end. Im not rascist but i am sick of ppl playing the rasicm card all the time.
Al Sharpton is relevant. We must address racism whenever we see it, and should not let the hypocrisy of some individuals disuade us from doing so.

[YOUWONTKNOW]

The media overhypes all this kind of thing far more than it actually happens. Political correctness is 5% valid concerns 95% Conservative rubbish.

Also just because black people can be racist doesnt make it accetable for white to follow suit.


that wasnt my point at all. Im saying that racism is everywhere. Im saying that in some circumstances african americans carry an ethnic chip on their shoulder. They then use the injustices of the past or the color of their skin as a reason to get what they want.

[Sleepaway]

Yeah probably, I could probably figure it out though.


If you ever met someone from Glasgow, you'd have some serious trouble.

[Nevuk]

I have relatives with original irish accents. That are sort of southern influenced. Thats not anything like a british accent, is it?

[concernedparent]

If you ever met someone from Glasgow, you'd have some serious trouble.
Could I understand your accent?

[YOUWONTKNOW]

love as arson- if you want the article look for it. It was probably around december id say. There was a bit of tv coverage. I live in queens during the school year so it was broadcast a lot over there.

[Nevuk]

I was mostly joking about my irish relatives having a british accent comment, it pisses them off. (They hate britain, but in that case, it may be slightly more justified than this one)

[YOUWONTKNOW]

lunch for the sky- im not trying to start any trouble but living in the city and in the states in general. (i live in new york) its different. This tends to happen a lot. I happen to go to the 9th most diverse school in the united states. Its just different around here. It definetly happens

[concernedparent]

British accent is completely different depending where you are. As in people where i live sound nothing like Londoners.
It would probably sound the same to an ignorant american like myself. Or maybe not. Can most british people tell the difference between a new york accent and a californian?

[Love As Arson]

They then use the injustices of the past or the color of their skin as a reason to get what they want.
Like equal pay, affirmative action, fair treatment in the judicial system, etc.,?

[YOUWONTKNOW]

there arent any neo nazi gatherings by me...lol..but im just trying to address my point that whites are the only racist people out there.

[RomeoAGoGo]

Racism exists cross-culturally. It's unfair to single out America.

[YOUWONTKNOW]

Like equal pay, affirmative action, fair treatment in the judicial system, etc.,?

im so done with this thread. ignorant people like you are just ridiculous. you spit out all your liberal bullshit. Im not going to lie. Im moderate but i cant take this..ugh...im saying that in several circumstances they will use the idea that the white ppl owe us bc our ancestors were slaves and things to that extent. affirmative action is bullshit though im sorry. It should be the best man for the job, not lets hire a certain race so that we can fit our quotas. Come on now..im out

later

[concernedparent]

i dont know the difference right now but i could if i heard it. I can certainly tell the difference between New York and Alabama.
I probably could with varying British accents as well then. But just for the record, new york accent is like "cwafee" instead of "coffee". Californian is very plain, pretty much just like the dictionary says to pronounce words. Like on the OC.

[Nevuk]

I was referring to racism by both sides in my original posts. White racism justifies black racism, and vice versa, the guy even addressed that at my work ("They can call us honky's but we can't?" )

[Nevuk]

Racism exists cross-culturally. It's unfair to single out America.

Only reason I am is because I have never been to another country. And really, this is only confirmedly true for the south for me.

[concernedparent]

ugh i hate that show..
I've never seen it. I live within an hour of there though.

[Love As Arson]

im so done with this thread. ignorant people like you are just ridiculous.
Ad hominem.
you spit out all your liberal bullshit.
I'm not a liberal.
im saying that in several circumstances they will use the idea that the white ppl owe us bc our ancestors were slaves and things to that extent.
Are they incorrect in pointing out the repression, and the societal effects it had on African-Americans? That isn't to say any individual caucasian owes them anything, but that there must be some sort of program in response to the problems wrought by this country.

affirmative action is bullshit though im sorry.It should be the best man for the job, not lets hire a certain race so that we can fit our quotas.
Which it is, you simply misunderstand the meaning.

[Nevuk]

I probably could with varying British accents as well then. But just for the record, new york accent is like "cwafee" instead of "coffee". Californian is very plain, pretty much just like the dictionary says to pronounce words. Like on the OC.
What the hell are you talking about? Cwafee is actually a jersey accent. New York is the business men accent, very clipped and rapidly spoken. And you only think that about california as you live there. Its inbetween the rapid-fire northern yankee talk and the slowass southern drawl. There are a lot more people of different descent in california so it varies more.

[concernedparent]

What the hell are you talking about? Cwafee is actually a jersey accent. New York is the business men accent, very clipped and rapidly spoken. And you only think that about california as you live there. Its inbetween the rapid-fire northern yankee talk and the slowass southern drawl. There are a lot more people of different descent in california so it varies more.
My mom, grandma, and aunt are all from New York (long island) and have that "cwafee" type accent. I wasn't referring to the city. What's more plain than a california accent? I don't disagree with you, I probably just think it's normal because I'm used to living here, but give me an example.

[Nevuk]

The plainest accents are the ones used for TV newscasters. They are trained to have proper and precise diction. Ever watch the Colbert' Gravitas off? Also, some stage-actors have very plain speech. Almost no one does this, as it requires training and thinking about every word to do it.

(And that is odd, most of the people from NYC try and greatly repress that. If you've ever seen a new york politician on TV, or Trump, thats closer to what I've heard).

[concernedparent]

The plainest accents are the ones used for TV newscasters. They are trained to have proper and precise diction. Ever watch the Colbert' Gravitas off? Also, some stage-actors have very plain speech. Almost no one does this, as it requires training and thinking about every word to do it.

(And that is odd, most of the people from NYC try and greatly repress that. If you've ever seen a new york politician on TV, or Trump, thats closer to what I've heard).
Well ok, obviously tv spokesman have plainer accents, I mean is there a region you can think of that has generally plainer accents than California? It seems pretty much as plain as it gets, relatively.

[Nevuk]

I only have met about 5 people from california. All of them have different accents, but they really don't vary that much from the people who have only slight southern accents around here. Very easy for them to understand me and vice versa (I somehow don't have a southern accent, although it varies, I say southern words like ya'll but other than that it doesn't show).
However, the original topic is more important than a discussion about various accents haha... Is racism even a problem that has a solution?

[Sleepaway]

It would probably sound the same to an ignorant american like myself. Or maybe not. Can most british people tell the difference between a new york accent and a californian?


Most British people wouldn't have a clue. I can tell the difference.

And yeah, you could definately understand me.

[trindaddy]

his name is david allen coe, and he wrote the songs in prisons. i met a guy who played a song or two for me once. the first song he played for me was itty bitty titties, which i thought was humorous, then after that was called i think "white girl and a n****r" which was offensive to me due to the fact that i find no problem at all with interracial relationships. i have black friends who date white people, and vice versa. i think it's borderline retarded to make a song about it, let alone have radical opinions about it.

we've had kkk rallies in my home town before, and they usually take place in the downtown area, where a large population of the black community lives. it has yet to escalate into violence, but i wouldn't be too shocked if it ever did. i have black friends in toledo, and that nearly ended up being a riot when the kkk visited there. as much as i think they all just need to have their teeth knocked down their throats (i'm a person against violence outside of sport even) it only creates more problems when people do lash back at them. i hate racism. i know they are protected under the constitution to assemble peacefully, but i think there should be a limit to racism groups.

[Nevuk]

his name is david allen coe, and he wrote the songs in prisons. i met a guy who played a song or two for me once. the first song he played for me was itty bitty titties, which i thought was humorous, then after that was called i think "white girl and a n****r" which was offensive to me due to the fact that i find no problem at all with interracial relationships. i have black friends who date white people, and vice versa. i think it's borderline retarded to make a song about it, let alone have radical opinions about it.

we've had kkk rallies in my home town before, and they usually take place in the downtown area, where a large population of the black community lives. it has yet to escalate into violence, but i wouldn't be too shocked if it ever did. i have black friends in toledo, and that nearly ended up being a riot when the kkk visited there. as much as i think they all just need to have their teeth knocked down their throats (i'm a person against violence outside of sport even) it only creates more problems when people do lash back at them. i hate racism. i know they are protected under the constitution to assemble peacefully, but i think there should be a limit to racism groups.
Your experience is pretty much exactly like mine, except he played that one for me later. I did crack up about him telling the little kids they had to cover their ears while he played that non racist, sexual song. Thanks for letting me know the right name.

[thejetstolehome]

My mom, grandma, and aunt are all from New York (long island) and have that "cwafee" type accent. I wasn't referring to the city. What's more plain than a california accent? I don't disagree with you, I probably just think it's normal because I'm used to living here, but give me an example.

the Long Island accent is the worst thing ever.

[open mind]

racism will be around as long as there are idiots. sadly idiots breed alot more then people of intelligence.

[costello.]

the Long Island accent is the worst thing ever.

it really is. i never noticed until i moved away, but everyone here feels the need to inform me of how awful it is.

as for racism, i've never encountered so much of it in my life before i moved to "the south", and i really do not understand the logic behind it (or lack thereof) at all.

[chronomic]

its hard not to be racist when asian ladies try to kill you with their cars everyfreakinday.

[concernedparent]

the Long Island accent is the worst thing ever.
I'm so used to it I don't notice it anymore.

[thejetstolehome]

I'm so used to it I don't notice it anymore.

i went to Hofstra in 2005-2006 and wanted to kill myself every time i heard it. so, a lot.

[nfggc10]

I disagree with Affirmative Action on the basis that it recquires an admission on the part of the purpotrator that treating people of different races differently is an acceptable way to do business. Which i whole heartedly reject. It seems self defeatist to the goals of social equality, at least in principle if not in practice.100% agreed.

[AP_Punk]

Alright, I'll open with a little story. Keep in mind, I live in the south.

I work in a fast food restaraunt, and if we have no customers around we play music. (I'm unsure as to whether this thread belonged in here or not). One of my coworkers decides to play some country music by a guy named David Allen Coan(sp?).

It might've been Johnny Rebel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Rebel_%28singer%29) playing? Some recordings by him have been mistakenly attirbuted to David Allan Coe.

I despise racism.

[Love As Arson]

I disagree with Affirmative Action on the basis that it recquires an admission on the part of the purpotrator that treating people of different races differently is an acceptable way to do business. Which i whole heartedly reject. It seems self defeatist to the goals of social equality, at least in principle if not in practice.
I support affirmative action the basis of class. With that said, affirmative action aims to achieve social equality, which requires such programs due to the repression conducted against individuals on the basis of race and gender. How is equality to be achieved if there is institutionalised repression that has kept a people/gender down for hundreds/thousands of years? Consider that it has only been forty years since some groups have been granted full human rights. Does that not demonstrate the necessity of those programs?

"Whenever this issue of compensatory or preferential treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but he should ask for nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man enters the starting line of a race three hundred years after another man, the first would have to perform some incredible feat in order to catch up."

[Shatter590]

The idea of equal opportunities needs to be instigated from birth up through the early schooling systme allowing everyone the capacity to achieve. It should not be thrown in some 20 years down the line allowing lesser qualified individuals preferential treatment over those more capapble. That is not a fair system. A fair system allows for people to reach their potential but doesn't subsidise.

agreed.

[Love As Arson]

The idea of equal opportunities needs to be instigated from birth up through the early schooling systme allowing everyone the capacity to achieve.
That does not address three hundred years of repression. Some form of redress must be made available for the centuries of denied wealth and quality education. One cannot simply provide a group with rights, and say that they are equal in standing when the institutions still harbor unofficial barriers.

It should not be thrown in some 20 years down the line allowing lesser qualified individuals preferential treatment over those more capapble.
Then, you are misunderstanding affirmative action. It does not provide unqualified individuals access to opportunities, rather, it provides those who are qualified access. So, for example, in a pool of equally qualifed candidates, a minority is chosen.
That is not a fair system. A fair system allows for people to reach their potential but doesn't subsidise.
A fair system provides opportunities to those who previously had no access to them. I would go further to say that affirmative action must be expanded in its scope, though it would be along class lines.

[Nevuk]

It might've been Johnny Rebel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Rebel_%28singer%29) playing? Some recordings by him have been mistakenly attirbuted to David Allan Coe.

I despise racism.
Highly possible, he found them on some filesharing service (Even here, you can't exactly walk into the mall and buy shit like that).

[concernedparent]

It might've been Johnny Rebel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Rebel_%28singer%29) playing? Some recordings by him have been mistakenly attirbuted to David Allan Coe.

I despise racism.
haha, I just downloaded this, interesting.

[kshtoinks12]

Show me a man that believes that racism anywhere can be eradicated and I will show you a man that is wrong.

[Nevuk]

Are you dissin Colbert?

[catscradle]

I disagree with Affirmative Action on the basis that it recquires an admission on the part of the purpotrator that treating people of different races differently is an acceptable way to do business. Which i whole heartedly reject. It seems self defeatist to the goals of social equality, at least in principle if not in practice.

The idea of equal opportunities needs to be instigated from birth up through the early schooling systme allowing everyone the capacity to achieve. It should not be thrown in some 20 years down the line allowing lesser qualified individuals preferential treatment over those more capapble. That is not a fair system. A fair system allows for people to reach their potential but doesn't subsidise.

holy crap, i never thought i'd see the day where i agreed with you on something, haha. I agree with both of your statements completely and have nothing to further add on that subject.



My feelings on racism are that it is a natural part of the human psyche. It is rooted in the human mind's natural tendency to group things, as our minds sort out indivduals into groups and categorize people into different categories of friend or enemy. In this pattern our minds view skin color to be different and therefore naturally view skin color as a seperate group. I think the only way to overcome this is through rational discourse, and since we all know that not ever human is a rational one, racism will continue to exist.

[Nevuk]

Eh, I went back into work today and he started singing one of the songs to me. It was really freaky because I had my arms wrist deep in chicken gore, and heard him going "I wish i was a " and talking about getting thrown out of heaven and hell because they were only taking blacks. The logic to rationalize that is beyond me.
I am reminded of my AP USH teacher, he always quoted Gandhi "Poverty is the worst form of violence" (If its a gandhi quote, if not, its a damn good one) and applied it directly to the fact that the poorest in US history have always been the most racist. He used it most specifically about rosewood. And since I work at a fast food restaraunt this fits.

[AP_Punk]

Eh, I went back into work today and he started singing one of the songs to me. It was really freaky because I had my arms wrist deep in chicken gore, and heard him going "I wish i was a " and talking about getting thrown out of heaven and hell because they were only taking blacks. The logic to rationalize that is beyond me.
I am reminded of my AP USH teacher, he always quoted Gandhi "Poverty is the worst form of violence" (If its a gandhi quote, if not, its a damn good one) and applied it directly to the fact that the poorest in US history have always been the most racist. He used it most specifically about rosewood. And since I work at a fast food restaraunt this fits.

Curbstomp the fool.

[Nevuk]

Sad part is, he is by far the least open racist at my work. You get the feeling that he says it to try and be funny, even though he actually believes it. A black guy started working, and my coworker who is my age leaned over and whispered "This is an issue, as I'm racist". I shrugged and said "i'm not" and just kept working. This guy at least has the respect or intelligence to wait til they leave before saying stupid shit like that.

[Love As Arson]

Eh, I went back into work today and he started singing one of the songs to me. It was really freaky because I had my arms wrist deep in chicken gore, and heard him going "I wish i was a " and talking about getting thrown out of heaven and hell because they were only taking blacks. The logic to rationalize that is beyond me.
I am reminded of my AP USH teacher, he always quoted Gandhi "Poverty is the worst form of violence" (If its a gandhi quote, if not, its a damn good one) and applied it directly to the fact that the poorest in US history have always been the most racist. He used it most specifically about rosewood. And since I work at a fast food restaraunt this fits.
Frederick Douglass spoke of the origins of this:

The slaveholders, with a craftiness peculiar to themselves, by encouraging the enmity of the poor, laboring white man against the blacks, succeeds in making the said white man almost as much a slave as the black slave himself. The difference between the white slave, and the black slave, is this: the latter belongs to one slaveholder, and the former belongs to all the slaveholders, collectively. The white slave has taken from him, by indirection, what the black slave has taken from him, directly, and without ceremony. Both are plundered, and by the same plunderers. The slave is robbed, by his master, of all his earnings, above what is required for his bare physical necessities; and the white man is robbed by the slave system, of the just results of his labor, because he is flung into competition with a class of laborers who work without wages. The competition, and its injurious consequences, will, one day, array the nonslaveholding white people of the slave states, against the slave system, and make them the most effective workers against the great evil. At present, the slaveholders blind them to this competition, by keeping alive their prejudice against the slaves, _as men not against them as slaves. They appeal to their pride, often denouncing emancipation, as tending to place the white man, on an equality with Negroes, and, by this means, they succeed in drawing off the minds of the poor whites from the real fact, that, by the rich slave-master, they are already regarded as but a single remove from equality with the slave.

[Nevuk]

Thats like how the Civil War was mostly fought by poor white non-slave owners. Not that the Civil War was ever about slavery, that is one of the biggest fucking myths ever, but they were fighting for the cause of the rich aristocrat who generally avoided service. (Hey, sound familiar?). The aristocrats in the south who did serve turned out to be military geniuses (Nathan Bedford, Robert E Lee, etc.), so its an overlooked aspect of the war in most circles.

[open mind]

how was the civil war not about slavery? i don't wanna hear the "it was about states rights" argument because the states rights issue was only important because of slavery.

[Nevuk]

how was the civil war not about slavery? i don't wanna hear the "it was about states rights" argument because the states rights issue was only important because of slavery.
State's rights was the idealogical issue, but there was far more. Understand, no one fights a 4 year war that totally breaks themselves over just an idealogical issue. It was economics, the north was seen as holding the south down/back, due to this:
Straws that almost broke the camel's back were the cotton tariffs and other pro-northern economic policies. Essentially, the north and south had different economic styles, but as the north had more people, they were able to write pro-northern economic laws. The reason they had a different economic style could indirectly be related to slavery, but its a stretch to say thats the only reason why it was fought. Mostly seeing as, the majority of those on both sides of the war didn't care about that issue. The poor whites in the south fought as they saw the north holding them back. Really, it was southern aristocrats doing this, so they were fighting the wrong enemy.

Notice how Lincoln didn't issue the emancipation proclamation until years into the war? And even then, it was forced as a reason to prevent Britain and France from entering the war. Also seeing as how he issued it only for the region where he didn't have the policy to enforce it.... yes, slavery is a bit of a moral highground, used to justify the brutality of reconstruction. The north's actions in the war set the stage for the extreme level of brutality displayed in later wars.

Its like saying that no taxation without representation was the sole reason for the declaration of independence. Meaning, its a useful thing to tell people to justify the war in 3rd grade, but its an extreme oversimplification.

Edit: Even this is an extreme oversimplification, just look at the length of the wiki article on it, this is an issue most have differing opinions on : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_American_Civil_War

[Iamhome]

I just think it's bullshit how some people out of every race have their hatred toward others. We live in America where everyone really does have the same opportunities. I mean, for the most part. It's so stupid for someone to bitch about not getting a job because the interviewer was rascist instead of continuing to search for a job. I just hate how lazy ass people like to use racism as a crutch.

[nfggc10]

I just think it's bullshit how some people out of every race have their hatred toward others. We live in America where everyone really does have the same opportunities. I mean, for the most part. It's so stupid for someone to bitch about not getting a job because the interviewer was rascist instead of continuing to search for a job. I just hate how lazy ass people like to use racism as a crutch.That's my biggest problem with the perception about racism. Just this week my brother who works for Coca Cola was accused of being a racist for reporting one of his subordinates for lackluster work ethic and failure to show up on time, etc. The guy had already been written up several times before for similar offenses yet this guy claimed my brother was being racist for reporting him. I'm just so sick of people using the race card to cover up their own failures. I've known several managers for companies like Cingular and Lockheed say they have to be careful about reporting or firing black employees because more often then not it will be seen as a racial issue rather than productivity. It's just sad to see this being abused and all that does is just make the problem that much worse. If everyone is forced to walk on eggshells then what does that say about our society? Not much...

[nfggc10]

Because the girl from the single parent family in Compton has the same opportunities as the son of a lawyer in Beverly Hills right?



This does not happen as often as Fox News would have you believe.
1) Yes she does. There have been success stories that have started out from poor/troubled childhoods. Using that as an excuse just covers up character flaws that keep them from working their asses off to make a life better than what their parents could give them.

2) It happens alot more than even Fox News leads you to believe.

[nfggc10]

Well people from the ghetto arent born less intelligent than those in Beverly Hills so how do you explain the fact that those born from middle class/upper class families are far more likely to earn more money?

Of course there are exceptions but no way is their equal opportunities. Not even close.Well there's a difference between earning money (work) and acquiring it(stocks, funds, etc). Obviously the poor children aren't going to be able to invest at an early age like the upper class but they have the same opportunity to earn the same if not better education. But it all depends on one's intelligence and will to succeed which are not determined by wealth at birth.

[Iamhome]

Because the girl from the single parent family in Compton has the same opportunities as the son of a lawyer in Beverly Hills right?
Opportunity was the wrong word. Chance to be successful, yes. If she tried her hardest and did everything she possibly could - she could be just as successful as the son of a lawyer in Beverly Hills.

This does not happen as often as Fox News would have you believe.

I'm speaking from my own experience - not from what I have seen on TV. I'm not saying ever ethnic group doesn't have their reason for why they can't get jobs or why they are lazy. I'm saying that if certain ethnic groups would stop using racism as a crutch they'd have more time to do something promising with their time. I only mentioned this because it is a thread about rascim, not drug use, or disability, or anything of the sort. Just racism - and that is my view on it.

[Iamhome]

That's my biggest problem with the perception about racism. Just this week my brother who works for Coca Cola was accused of being a racist for reporting one of his subordinates for lackluster work ethic and failure to show up on time, etc. The guy had already been written up several times before for similar offenses yet this guy claimed my brother was being racist for reporting him. I'm just so sick of people using the race card to cover up their own failures. I've known several managers for companies like Cingular and Lockheed say they have to be careful about reporting or firing black employees because more often then not it will be seen as a racial issue rather than productivity. It's just sad to see this being abused and all that does is just make the problem that much worse. If everyone is forced to walk on eggshells then what does that say about our society? Not much...

You know who hates it more than we do? Successful people of the same race - Because they use the system to their advantage yet some people still group them with the people we are speaking of. I only have issues with those who will accuse you of being racist just for leverage against you. I'm not a racist and I feel everyone has the same chance to succeed here in America. Of course, everyone has to find their own way - but welfare lines should be there for those who really need it. There is always an option available and people shouldn't jump at the first chance to get 'free' money.

Also, If a certain ethnic group wants to be put on the same level as others - shouldn't they quit acting like the other owes them something?

[nfggc10]

The standard of education is not as good in poor areas as paid education for the wealthy.I was talking more about college educations and the scholarship opportunities available.

Opportunity was the wrong word. Chance to be successful, yes. If she tried her hardest and did everything she possibly could - she could be just as successful as the son of a lawyer in Beverly Hills.
Correct.

[nfggc10]

You know who hates it more than we do? Successful people of the same race - Because they use the system to their advantage yet some people still group them with the people we are speaking of. I only have issues with those who will accuse you of being racist just for leverage against you. I'm not a racist and I feel everyone has the same chance to succeed here in America. Of course, everyone has to find their own way - but welfare lines should be there for those who really need it. There is always an option available and people shouldn't jump at the first chance to get 'free' money.

Also, If a certain ethnic group wants to be put on the same level as others - shouldn't they quit acting like the other owes them something?Agreed. I'm not a racist either but when I see it occurring on either side I have very strong opinions about it. As for your last comment, I bring that up in every discussion about this issue yet for some reason people don't see the logic in it. All of these groups that magnify the issue or bring attention to it in any light only serve to make the problem worse. It's nothing that can be solved overnight or with statistical data or anything other than time. Honestly, do we really need a black history month, black radio stations and television channel or black award shows, etc? I just find the hypocrisy funny because if any blatant white versions of what I just mentioned were created there would be chaos. People want to make it into a complex issue but it's really not.

For instance, instead of talking about how there's a lack of black baseball players in the MLB, why don't those groups discuss how they make up over 70% of the NBA. I just don't agree with them trying to force "equal" numbers in everything.

[nfggc10]

By that stage its too far gone though.Not really. If the poor children prove that they can make good grades and do well on the SATs or ACTs then will have great opportunities available to them.

[Love As Arson]

You know who hates it more than we do? Successful people of the same race. Because they use the system to their advantage yet some people still group them with the people we are speaking of.
Successful individuals in our society tend to have more prejudice, because their conception of the system is that, since it has worked in their benefit, it must work for everyone, which is fundamentally wrong. Statistically, they are an aberration.

I only have issues with those who will accuse you of being racist just for leverage against you.
How often does this happen?

I'm not a racist and I feel everyone has the same chance to succeed here in America.
That is not the case. As Luncheonthesky said, there are inequities in every facet of our society that prohibits individuals from being able to achieve their full potential.

Of course, everyone has to find their own way
The country must provide them with the tools to do so.

but welfare lines should be there for those who really need it. There is always an option available and people shouldn't jump at the first chance to get 'free' money.
Welfare must be extended. In fact, I'd get rid of the five year limit instituted by Clinton.


Also, If a certain ethnic group wants to be put on the same level as others - shouldn't they quit acting like the other owes them something?
Read "certain ethnic groups" as "Blacks". In any case, the American government systematically repressed a group of people, denied them wealth, justice, quality education,etc., which is directly linked to its current circumstances. Is it not the case that the government must offer up something in order to redress its crimes?

Opportunity was the wrong word. Chance to be successful, yes. If she tried her hardest and did everything she possibly could - she could be just as successful as the son of a lawyer in Beverly Hills.
If that is truly the case, and the chance to be successful is equally distributed, then why isn't it the case that more people shift from lower classes to upper classes? Either they are simply deficient in the equal field of chance, or one must come to the conclusion that the system is built in the interests of maintaining wealth within a specific group, so that opportunity is restricted from lower classes.

I'm speaking from my own experience
Personal experience is irrelevant.


I'm not saying ever ethnic group doesn't have their reason for why they can't get jobs or why they are lazy. I'm saying that if certain ethnic groups would stop using racism as a crutch they'd have more time to do something promising with their time. I only mentioned this because it is a thread about rascim, not drug use, or disability, or anything of the sort. Just racism - and that is my view on it.
Minorities are disproportionately given higher prison sentences than caucasians, far longer sentences, more likely to be harassed by police officers and less likely to be hired if they have a name that is out of the ordinary. Perhaps their grievances should be addressed rather than discounted as something illusory.

[Love As Arson]

Honestly, do we really need a black history month, black radio stations and television channel or black award shows, etc?
Yes, because African-Americans aren't represented very well in education, radio or television. It stands to reason, then, that they would develop their own institutions in order to respond to that lack of representation.
I just find the hypocrisy funny because if any blatant white versions of what I just mentioned were created there would be chaos.
See the rest of the history lessons taught, all other television stations and other radio hosts.

[nfggc10]

How often does this happen? More often than you think. Although there's many occasions where people are treated poorly because of race but it's generalized way too much in the black community as a general excuse. People take advantage of it the same way others do of welfare.


That is not the case. As Luncheonthesky said, there are inequities in every facet of our society that prohibits individuals from being able to achieve their full potential.Not necessarily. You make it seem like it's impossible to succeed when you're born into a poor family but it's not.


The country must provide them with the tools to do so.And the government tries to but unfortunately the amount of money going to people who take advantage of the system could be used for others who need it and can't gt it for various reasons.

[nfggc10]

Yes, because African-Americans aren't represented very well in education, radio or television. It stands to reason, then, that they would develop their own institutions in order to respond to that lack of representation.

See the rest of the history lessons taught, all other television stations and other radio hosts.
1) Well they also don't represent a majority of the population either but that's not our fault.
2) As for our history, it's also not out fault that most of our history revolves around the actions of predominately caucasians.

[nfggc10]

But that is far more difficult for them than it is for the offspring of a rich family.According to you it's not: "...people from the ghetto arent born less intelligent than those in Beverly Hills..." The amount of knowledge you wish to gain is up to you. Even if the standard of education isn't up to par doesn't mean that that same child can't go to the public library and gain however much knowledge they want.

[nfggc10]

Be realistic, thewy should be taught to the same standard in schools from the day they enter the system.Well of course they should be but if they aren't that doesn't mean they can't even the playing field on their own. You underestimate the desire of individuals and how much of a role that plays. It works the other way as well. I was lucky to be brought up going to really nice schools but there were kids there that had no motivation to learn at all and to this day probably aren't that intelligent. Just because you go to a poor school or a wealthier one doesn't mean you'll be a reflection of those standards as you grow.

[Love As Arson]

More often than you think. Although there's many occasions where people are treated poorly because of race but it's generalized way too much in the black community as a general excuse. People take advantage of it the same way others do of welfare.
It is a truth constructed to obfuscate the actual debate, which is that minorities have been repressed, continue to face institutional racism and something must be done to address. However, when one places the burden on the minority, they become the problem, therefore absolving the dominant group of any responsibility for their past crimes.


Not necessarily. You make it seem like it's impossible to succeed when you're born into a poor family but it's not.
Generally speaking, those born within a specific class stay within that class. So, one must either conclude that the majority of them are lazy or there is a systemic problems which prevents people from achieving what they want to.


And the government tries to but unfortunately the amount of money going to people who take advantage of the system could be used for others who need it and can't gt it for various reasons.
By introducing programs like No Child Left Behind, which enhances inequality, cutting the grants for college, shifting taxes onto the middle class, etc.? There was a recent study released that showed that college freshmen are wealthier than at any point in time, meaning that lower class individuals are being restricited to an even greater extent from receiving a college education. The argument of "people taking advantage of the system" is a strawman.

[Love As Arson]

1) Well they also don't represent a majority of the population either but that's not our fault.
The minority requires some representation. If the majority will not grant them it, they will develop avenues themselves. That does not mean that it is racist, or hypocritical, only that they are providing themselves with representation.


2) As for our history, it's also not out fault that most of our history revolves around the actions of predominately caucasians.
It is, however, our fault if we deny the role of blacks and other minorities in the history of the country. Considering that that is 300 hundred years of history, which is rarely covered, a month seems little to ask. Or, one could dispose of the need for such occassions by presenting a full view of history.

[Iamhome]

Successful individuals in our society tend to have more prejudice, because their conception of the system is that, since it has worked in their benefit, it must work for everyone, which is fundamentally wrong. Statistically, they are an aberration.
So use that reasoning as something to hold you back. Since it's not likely you wont make it out of your 'lower-class' bracket; might as well not even try.

How often does this happen? Enough for me to notice it.

That is not the case. As Luncheonthesky said, there are inequities in every facet of our society that prohibits individuals from being able to achieve their full potential. So are there not ways to work around the 'inequities?'

The country must provide them with the tools to do so.
How do they not have the tools? Anyone can get a scholarship if they try hard enough, anyone can get their business liscensed, anyone can hire marketing... it's the ones who push themselves to do better and go further in life that are successful. Yes society limits people, but you can break those limits by trying hard each day to better yourself. Give me one example and I will show you a way around it.

Welfare must be extended. In fact, I'd get rid of the five year limit instituted by Clinton. To give more people a reason to sit at home and collect taxpayers money?


Read "certain ethnic groups" as "Blacks". In any case, the American government systematically repressed a group of people, denied them wealth, justice, quality education,etc., which is directly linked to its current circumstances. Is it not the case that the government must offer up something in order to redress its crimes?
I didn't want to single out "blacks" because every ethnic group is guilty of the same thing - I wasn't calling out blacks in my statements. To redress its crimes? To the people who it commited crimes to; sure, and maybe even their kids, and maybe even their grandkids - But isn't the government doing that? I mean, of course everyone gets greedy and says 'it isn't enough.'

If that is truly the case, and the chance to be successful is equally distributed, then why isn't it the case that more people shift from lower classes to upper classes? Either they are simply deficient in the equal field of chance, or one must come to the conclusion that the system is built in the interests of maintaining wealth within a specific group, so that opportunity is restricted from lower classes.

Because there are more people like you than there are like me. If one person has shifted from the lower class to the upper class, than that proves that everyone is capable. Of course the statistics will stay the same because people think to themselves 'statistically I can never be an upper class citizen' yet their brother goes on to be a doctor, head up a hospital, and then starts a medical practice for athletes and works with Professional athletes with a 6 figure salary. You set your own boundaries, and for you to say "the system is built in the interests of maintaining wealth within a specific group, so that opportunity is restricted from lower classes' shows that people use this as a reasoning for not being successful.

Personal experience is irrelevant. IMO personal experience is far more relevant than a story shown on FOX news. It may not help my arguement but it does show a lot to me, personally.


Minorities are disproportionately given higher prison sentences than caucasians, far longer sentences, more likely to be harassed by police officers and less likely to be hired if they have a name that is out of the ordinary. Perhaps their grievances should be addressed rather than discounted as something illusory.

Higher prison sentences? Why would they be going to prison? Was it my choice for them to commit a crime? A police officer can harrass all they want, but if you aren't doing anything wrong they will find it much harder to charge you with something. I don't see how this is relevant to the topic at hand, but good point, I guess. You are just stating examples of things people have to work past to become successful. Everyone has their adversary; they can either succumb to it or they can beat it.

[nfggc10]

It is a truth constructed to obfuscate the actual debate, which is that minorities have been repressed, continue to face institutional racism and something must be done to address. However, when one places the burden on the minority, they become the problem, therefore absolving the dominant group of any responsibility for their past crimes.Well you can't make it an absolute issue either way. You can't deny that the race card is used many times when in fact they deserved to be treated a certain way. But, most black people have good character but unfortunately there's always exceptions in every group that hurt their reputations.


Generally speaking, those born within a specific class stay within that class. So, one must either conclude that the majority of them are lazy or there is a systemic problems which prevents people from achieving what they want to.Well those who are both lazy and born into troubled situations have no chance. But, those that have a tremendous will to succeed have a great chance to do so.



The argument of "people taking advantage of the system" is a strawman.If by strawman argument you mean a real problem that needs to be addressed then yes. My sister-in-law has worked/volunteered in numerous doctors offices and childrens medical facilities and encountered so many families/parents that abused the welfare system. I just hate that these people take away opportunities for those that need it.

[nfggc10]

The minority requires some representation. If the majority will not grant them it, they will develop avenues themselves. That does not mean that it is racist, or hypocritical, only that they are providing themselves with representation.And they are represented, just not equally in a pure numbers sense which is impossible.


It is, however, our fault if we deny the role of blacks and other minorities in the history of the country. Considering that that is 300 hundred years of history, which is rarely covered, a month seems little to ask. Or, one could dispose of the need for such occassions by presenting a full view of history.[/QUOTE]I am all for that but you would have to realize that a majority of it would still revolve around the actions of mostly caucasians as far as this country in the last 300 years is concerned.

[Iamhome]

Agreed. I'm not a racist either but when I see it occurring on either side I have very strong opinions about it. As for your last comment, I bring that up in every discussion about this issue yet for some reason people don't see the logic in it. All of these groups that magnify the issue or bring attention to it in any light only serve to make the problem worse. It's nothing that can be solved overnight or with statistical data or anything other than time. Honestly, do we really need a black history month, black radio stations and television channel or black award shows, etc? I just find the hypocrisy funny because if any blatant white versions of what I just mentioned were created there would be chaos. People want to make it into a complex issue but it's really not.

For instance, instead of talking about how there's a lack of black baseball players in the MLB, why don't those groups discuss how they make up over 70% of the NBA. I just don't agree with them trying to force "equal" numbers in everything.


I don't mind BET or Black History Month - but it is hypocrytical since if I was to start WET then I would be a racist.

[nfggc10]

I don't mind BET or Black History Month - but it is hypocrytical since if I was to start WET then I would be a racist.Exactly my point. I don't care that they have any of those types of things. It just unnerves me that if a WET type thing was created it would be deemed racist rather than a cultural symbol.

[Love As Arson]

So use that reasoning as something to hold you back. Since it's not likely you wont make it out of your 'lower-class' bracket; might as well not even try.
No, I am stating that we must fundamentally change the system, so that each individual is able to achieve their full potential. As it is currently, the majority do not.



So are there not ways to work around the 'inequities?'
The inequities shouldn't exist in the first place.


How do they not have the tools? Anyone can get a scholarship if they try hard enough,anyone can get their business liscensed, anyone can hire marketing
Inequality does not begin in high school, it begins much earlier, in the schools that are segregated along class lines and do not provide a high quality education.


it's the ones who push themselves to do better and go further in life that are successful.
Why are there so few of these people? Are the poor innately without ambition, or is there something that plays a greater role in the success of individuals?


Yes society limits people, but you can break those limits by trying hard each day to better yourself.
If you concede that society places limits on individuals, how can you maintain the position that everyone has an equal chance to become successful? It is a contradictory position.

Give me one example and I will show you a way around it.
Why? I do not think an individual should face any limitations.


To give more people a reason to sit at home and collect taxpayers money?
To provide people with a good standard of living. I have said in previous threads that I also believe there should be affirmative action along class lines, so that, in concert with these programs, the poor also have greater access to opportunities.



o redress its crimes? To the people who it commited crimes to; sure, and maybe even their kids, and maybe even their grandkids - But isn't the government doing that?
The government is guilty of the crimes of enforcing slavery, as well as other repressive laws, is it not? It has affected African-Americans through many generations, so why would one be opposed to the government facing up to its crimes. African-Americans still find themselves facing greater unemployment, many times due to prejudice, and there remains a gap between their income and that of caucasians. As such, it does not seem as though the government has fulfilled its responsibilities.


Because there are more people like you than there are like me.
Ad hominem.


If one person has shifted from the lower class to the upper class, than that proves that everyone is capable.
Then, why haven't more people done so? That is a simple question. If, as you say, everyone has an equal chance to become successful, then it stands to reason that one would see more individuals doing so. Instead we find that individuals born within a class stay within that class. Why do you suppose that such occurrences are treated with fanfare? If it were the norm for people to go from rags to riches, it wouldn't be treated as such.


Of course the statistics will stay the same because people think to themselves 'statistically I can never be an upper class citizen
Your reasoning is predicated upon the idea that the character of the lower class is uniform, which it is not.


yet their brother goes on to be a doctor, head up a hospital, and then starts a medical practice for athletes and works with Professional athletes with a 6 figure salary.
How often does this occur?



You set your own boundaries, and for you to say "the system is built in the interests of maintaining wealth within a specific group, so that opportunity is restricted from lower classes' shows that people use this as a reasoning for not being successful.
Or acknowledge reality. The fact is, the American state was set up by those with wealthy in a way that benefitted them. Indeed, one need only look at the school systems, the laws regarding labor and foreign policy to understand who it is that actually benefits from it.


IMO personal experience is far more relevant than a story shown on FOX news. It may not help my arguement but it does show a lot to me, personally.
All my life I have seen white people benefit from racism, and black people have typically never done so. Whose experience is more valid?


Higher prison sentences?
Yes, African-Americans are treated more harshly in the judicial system.


Why would they be going to prison?
A war on drugs, which is inherently racist.

Was it my choice for them to commit a crime?
Irrelevant. It illustrates the racism that remains present in our society.


A police officer can harrass all they want, but if you aren't doing anything wrong they will find it much harder to charge you with something.
The police are part of the systemic problem, and they should not be able to do as they wish.


I don't see how this is relevant to the topic at hand, but good point, I guess. You are just stating examples of things people have to work past to become successful. Everyone has their adversary; they can either succumb to it or they can beat it.
It is relevant in that it makes clear that racism is still present in the institutions of our society. Rather than ascribing it to part of the system, perhaps it must be extinguished from the system.


You are just stating examples of things people have to work past to become successful. Everyone has their adversary; they can either succumb to it or they can beat it.
It should not be in their way in the first place. But, again, you concede that individuals are treated unequally, and it contradicts the entire basis of your arguments, which is that everyone has an equal chance of being successful.

Well you can't make it an absolute issue either way. You can't deny that the race card is used many times when in fact they deserved to be treated a certain way. But, most black people have good character but unfortunately there's always exceptions in every group that hurt their reputations.
I deny the belief that mentioning historical trangressions is "using the race card".


Well those who are both lazy and born into troubled situations have no chance. But, those that have a tremendous will to succeed have a great chance to do so.
Why do so few go onto become successful?


If by strawman argument you mean a real problem that needs to be addressed then yes. My sister-in-law has worked/volunteered in numerous doctors offices and childrens medical facilities and encountered so many families/parents that abused the welfare system. I just hate that these people take away opportunities for those that need it.
By strawman, I mean a position used to obstruct the real argument. It has no validity other than to deter the debate.

And they are represented, just not equally in a pure numbers sense which is impossible.
In the areas you mentioned, they are not. You then went on to be critical of their decision to found institutions within the various medium, so that they may be represented. It is my position that this is not hypocritical, it is necessary.


I am all for that but you would have to realize that a majority of it would still revolve around the actions of mostly caucasians as far as this country in the last 300 years is concerned.
There are numerous important minorities and women in our history that are barely mentioned.

[Love As Arson]

Exactly my point. I don't care that they have any of those types of things. It just unnerves me that if a WET type thing was created it would be deemed racist rather than a cultural symbol.
WET = Every network. How many shows on the major networks have a cast made up of minorities? If it is the case that there are only one or two, is it racist to construct a network to deal with that?

[nfggc10]

I deny the belief that mentioning historical trangressions is "using the race card".yes but I'm talking about the present. See that's the problem with people who share your opinion on this issue. You are stuck in the past and use that to justify anything that is done to unjustly give minorities what turns out to be advantageous opportunities over the majority. The more you use the past to justify it you're only prolonging the time that this is still a major issue in society. Using that logic, racism will be just as big of a problem today as it will several centuries from now.

Why do so few go onto become successful?Because most grow up around parents and friends who believe they have no chance to succeed and that it would be a waste of time trying. This is part of the reason why inter-city gangs have become such a big part of that culture. It's just a product of weak-minded people influencing children who deserve to know that if they do work hard they can indeed be successful.


There are numerous important minorities and women in our history that are barely mentioned.You can make that argument for every race.

WET = Every network. How many shows on the major networks have a cast made up of minorities? If it is the case that there are only one or two, is it racist to construct a network to deal with that?Yes it is racist because minority groups will claim that a white-dominated network is being racist for not running more shows starring black actors. So it is indeed hypocritical for them to create a channel that features a minority dominated programming. What's the difference because as everyone knows racism does actually work both ways? There's always been black shows on major network television and in fact, many are regarded as some of the best sitcoms of all time.

[Iamhome]

No, I am stating that we must fundamentally change the system, so that each individual is able to achieve their full potential. As it is currently, the majority do not.
Fundamentally change the system... Good Idea. But until then people should make it work for them - while fighting it.



The inequities shouldn't exist in the first place. But they do, so people should find ways around them. It is survival.


Inequality does not begin in high school, it begins much earlier, in the schools that are segregated along class lines and do not provide a high quality education.
I agree with education being more available (in terms of better learning) to everyone...


Why are there so few of these people? Are the poor innately without ambition, or is there something that plays a greater role in the success of individuals?
There are so few because they believe they cannot do better, which is simply not true. They can if they actually try.


If you concede that society places limits on individuals, how can you maintain the position that everyone has an equal chance to become successful? It is a contradictory position.
It is not contradictory. I didn't say that society doesn't place any limits - of course it does - it is the world we live in. The successful people find ways to succeed.

Why? I do not think an individual should face any limitations. It woudl be nice if your perfect world could happen, but people would rather sit around and complain about how bad the world is instead of going out and doing something to fix it (the majority of people)...


To provide people with a good standard of living. I have said in previous threads that I also believe there should be affirmative action along class lines, so that, in concert with these programs, the poor also have greater access to opportunities.
Yes, greater access to opportunities may be provided, but the number of people abusing the system does more harm than good.



The government is guilty of the crimes of enforcing slavery, as well as other repressive laws, is it not? It has affected African-Americans through many generations, so why would one be opposed to the government facing up to its crimes. African-Americans still find themselves facing greater unemployment, many times due to prejudice, and there remains a gap between their income and that of caucasians. As such, it does not seem as though the government has fulfilled its responsibilities.
Back to my point - it doesn't seem like the government has fulfilled its responsibilities because no one is ever satisfied.


Ad hominem.okay.


Then, why haven't more people done so? That is a simple question. If, as you say, everyone has an equal chance to become successful, then it stands to reason that one would see more individuals doing so. Instead we find that individuals born within a class stay within that class. Why do you suppose that such occurrences are treated with fanfare? If it were the norm for people to go from rags to riches, it wouldn't be treated as such.
More people haven't done this because people believe that they are destined to be in a certain class. They are raised that way (parenting) and they feel that is the best they can ever achieve. I truly believe anything is achievable by pretty much anyone - they just have to keep fighting until they get what they want.

Your reasoning is predicated upon the idea that the character of the lower class is uniform, which it is not.

So the people in the lower class are all doing their best to find jobs and are all trying to further their knowledge to be more essiential to the ecomomy? I can't believe that is true. I'm sure some of them are - but for the most part they will be middle class in a few years - which leaves the ones with the 'this is the best I can do' way of thinking; in lower class. The ones that find excuses for why they are lowerclass - the ones who try to place blame of all of their failures on others...


How often does this occur? It occurs, which is reason enough for people to try harder.



Or acknowledge reality. The fact is, the American state was set up by those with wealthy in a way that benefitted them. Indeed, one need only look at the school systems, the laws regarding labor and foreign policy to understand who it is that actually benefits from it. Awknowledging 'reality' in its current state is a great way to let your life pass you by. To find reasons as to why you can't better yourself is a good excuse to be lazy.


All my life I have seen white people benefit from racism, and black people have typically never done so. Whose experience is more valid? Who can judge?


Yes, African-Americans are treated more harshly in the judicial system. I understand that. Since when I was in court I saw an african american get his case dismissed, when mine landed me 2 years of probation. There are exceptions to all generalizations.


A war on drugs, which is inherently racist. inherently racist because of choice - I got caught up in it as well - I'm not complaining that the law is holding me back, I'm bettering myself.

Irrelevant. It illustrates the racism that remains present in our society.
No one said racism didn't exist - people just need to stop using it as a crutch. If they are activly protesting instead of sitting in the welfare line complaining - I have no problem with them.


The police are part of the systemic problem, and they should not be able to do as they wish. They cannot do as they wish - but if you're breaking the law and you get caught, racial profiling or not, who is to blame? The 'higher chance' of getting caught should be enough of a deterent to turn the tables and make it where black people aren't the main ethic group commiting crimes.

It is relevant in that it makes clear that racism is still present in the institutions of our society. Rather than ascribing it to part of the system, perhaps it must be extinguished from the system. ...


It should not be in their way in the first place. But, again, you concede that individuals are treated unequally, and it contradicts the entire basis of your arguments, which is that everyone has an equal chance of being successful. The basis of my arguments is not that people are treated equally - It is that people have the same opportunities. If one single person in a situation breaks a barrier, it is obviously capable of being broken. Why don't more follow suit?

[Love As Arson]

yes but I'm talking about the present.
The present is directly connected to the past. Is it your position that granting minorities full human rights only forty years ago is completely devoid of any reprecussions? That is merely a generation ago.

You are stuck in the past and use that to justify anything that is done to unjustly give minorities what turns out to be advantageous opportunities over the majority.
The majority, as the majority, enjoys advantages simply for belonging to that group. In fact, one finds the greatest instances of affirmative action when they investigate many colleges. The fact is, there is a deficit of opportunity for the poor and minorites, and these programs are meant to address this deficit. As such, it is not an issue of providing more advantages, but simply providing advantages at all when they were previously denied them.

The more you use the past to justify it you're only prolonging the time that this is still a major issue in society. Using that logic, racism will be just as big of a problem today as it will several centuries from now.
Racism will be a problem so long as we live under a system that benefits from it and individuals choose to ignore the very real reprecussions of centuries of repression. If one chooses to do the latter, then there is no hope for any progress, for there will be no understanding.


Because most grow up around parents and friends who believe they have no chance to succeed and that it would be a waste of time trying.
So, it is your position that, rather than a systemic problem, it is that their parents aren't very helpful? Again, that is a strawman. Why does such hopelessness exist? It is not that it simply arose independently of the material conditions of the are.


This is part of the reason why inter-city gangs have become such a big part of that culture. It's just a product of weak-minded people influencing children who deserve to know that if they do work hard they can indeed be successful.
Inner-city gangs are a product of the lack of economic opportunities in those communities; that is, it is not simply the idea that there are no opportunities, but the reality that there are very few.


You can make that argument for every race.
Yes, and they deserve to have their stories heard.


Yes it is racist because minority groups will claim that a white-dominated network is being racist for not running more shows starring black actors. So it is indeed hypocritical for them to create a channel that features a minority dominated programming.
That is not hypocrisy. They are not acting in opposition to their goal, they are creating their own way to break into an industry that will not feature them. According to your logic, the NAACP was racist in its conception, because it did not also focus on whites.


What's the difference because as everyone knows racism does actually work both ways?
The difference is that one instance is a response to the lack of representation.


There's always been black shows on major network television and in fact, many are regarded as some of the best sitcoms of all time.
Well, no, blacks shows didn't start appearing until the '70's. In any case, you are correct, but when one looks at the rest of television at the time those shows were on, they were the only shows featuring characters that were minorities. Can you name shows with minorities that are currently featured on any of the major networks?

[Iamhome]

Well, no, blacks shows didn't start appearing until the '70's. In any case, you are correct, but when one looks at the rest of television at the time those shows were on, they were the only shows featuring characters that were minorities. Can you name shows with minorities that are currently featured on any of the major networks?

Real World Colorado...

:)

[Nevuk]

Heroes has those japanese guys and the black guy.

[nfggc10]

So, it is your position that, rather than a systemic problem, it is that their parents aren't very helpful? Again, that is a strawman. Why does such hopelessness exist? It is not that it simply arose independently of the material conditions of the are.Yes that is part of the problem. People like severely underestimate the amount of impact one's own will and character have on their success regardless of their class. If someone is lazy and has no ambition and believe they will fail then it doesn't matter how much money they have. If poor children have the desire to make a life for themselves and their children that's better they will find a way to do so. But, it's always easier to blame the "system" than it is to look deeper at the individuals behind the statistics.


Inner-city gangs are a product of the lack of economic opportunities in those communities; that is, it is not simply the idea that there are no opportunities, but the reality that there are very few.No, they are the result of failing to look for such opportunities. If only one person has risen from absolutely nothing than anyone else can do the same.


That is not hypocrisy. They are not acting in opposition to their goal, they are creating their own way to break into an industry that will not feature them. According to your logic, the NAACP was racist in its conception, because it did not also focus on whites.How are they not acting acting in opposition to their goal. Their goal is eventually develop a society that views each race equally, not separately. So it's easy to argue that all of the things they create that are black-only serve to separate them from the rest of society. I agree with you that they're not proportionally represented properly on network televisions but we really don't have the knowledge behind how many of their pilots are done by/about minorities so it's hard to say haw racially biased they are.

[nfggc10]

Again, I'm all for racial equality as much as anyone else. However, I just feel that them shoving it down my throat every time I open a newspaper or turn on the tv is the wrong approach. Forcing it to happen isn't helping the problem and like LoveAsArson said we're not even that far away from the Civil Rights era so expecting it to be perfect isn't good either. It can only happen in time and realizing that changing people's views isn't going to happen over night and the more you tell people how they should feel the more inclined they'll be to do the opposite.

[Sleepaway]

I wholeheartedly agree with this guy.

[Love As Arson]

Yes that is part of the problem. People like severely underestimate the amount of impact one's own will and character have on their success regardless of their class.
One can maintain that it is a matter of personal responsibility, however, that is merely a superficial way in which to look at it which doesn't take into consideration the way society is set up.

If someone is lazy and has no ambition and believe they will fail then it doesn't matter how much money they have. If poor children have the desire to make a life for themselves and their children that's better they will find a way to do so.
The implict message is then that poor children are less ambitious than those at the top, rather than simply not being in the fortunate position of being born into a rich family.

But, it's always easier to blame the "system" than it is to look deeper at the individuals behind the statistics.
Actually, it is much more difficult to blame the system, as people tend to accept it willfully as somthing which is unchangeable. Further, there are apologists for the system that posit it cannot be the problem, and instead, it is the fault of the people for not being ambitious, though as I've pointed out, and you've not responded to, the system has cut numerous programs. Let us take your position at face value, though. It is possible for every individual to become a boss. Then, how would profit be produced? If there are no workers willing to work for menial wages, then the industry is unable to survive. Therefore, it is beneficial to reproduce a class of individuals that will work for those wages. The reason for this is that our economy is a social pyramid, in which there is very little room for individuals at the top, and a great deal of room at the bottom. In order to function as you say we do, the model would have to be changed.


No, they are the result of failing to look for such opportunities. If only one person has risen from absolutely nothing than anyone else can do the same.
Then, explain why it is that they arise in communities where it is noted that there are very few economic opportunities from the poor.

How are they not acting acting in opposition to their goal. Their goal is eventually develop a society that views each race equally, not separately. So it's easy to argue that all of the things they create that are black-only serve to separate them from the rest of society.
Their primary goal is to gain access to the industry, and if the industry does not provide them a way into it, then they will develop other avenues. Your reasoning denies this evident premise.


I agree with you that they're not proportionally represented properly on network televisions but we really don't have the knowledge behind how many of their pilots are done by/about minorities so it's hard to say haw racially biased they are.
We can infer that there aren't many pilots for minorities demanded by the networks by their line-ups.

[Love As Arson]

Again, I'm all for racial equality as much as anyone else. However, I just feel that them shoving it down my throat every time I open a newspaper or turn on the tv is the wrong approach.Forcing it to happen isn't helping the problem and like LoveAsArson said we're not even that far away from the Civil Rights era so expecting it to be perfect isn't good either.It can only happen in time and realizing that changing people's views isn't going to happen over night and the more you tell people how they should feel the more inclined they'll be to do the opposite.
The same position was taken by politicians/apologists for Jim Crow. They told civil rights leaders that they could not change, that it would take time and this turned whites off. The problem was, people that had to deal with insitutional repression did not want to wait, and viewed it as self-serving for individuals to request that they wait for minds to be changed. I tend to agree.

[nfggc10]

One can maintain that it is a matter of personal responsibility, however, that is merely a superficial way in which to look at it which doesn't take into consideration the way society is set up.How is that superficial? Superficial is the stance that you're taking assuming that their color/class is the reason why they aren't succeeding.


The implict message is then that poor children are less ambitious than those at the top, rather than simply not being in the fortunate position of being born into a rich family.Haha that is absolutely laughable. How many successful people do you know that have zero ambition? And there are too many people that have succeeded in all professions despite their financial status to deem that it is the sole factor in determining one's future which you're implying by that last statement.


Actually, it is much more difficult to blame the system, as people tend to accept it willfully as somthing which is unchangeable. Further, there are apologists for the system that posit it cannot be the problem, and instead, it is the fault of the people for not being ambitious, though as I've pointed out, and you've not responded to, the system has cut numerous programs. Let us take your position at face value, though. It is possible for every individual to become a boss. Then, how would profit be produced? If there are no workers willing to work for menial wages, then the industry is unable to survive. Therefore, it is beneficial to reproduce a class of individuals that will work for those wages. The reason for this is that our economy is a social pyramid, in which there is very little room for individuals at the top, and a great deal of room at the bottom. In order to function as you say we do, the model would have to be changed.Programs being cut don't stop people that have enough drive to succeed. It is in fact easier to blame the system because it is difficult to change and is the cop-out. And it's easy to argue that the workers you mentioned that have low wages are actually happy to have a job and contribute to society any way they can. However, those who strive to have better will do what they can to move up the ladder.


Then, explain why it is that they arise in communities where it is noted that there are very few economic opportunities from the poor.What? You're claiming that those nothing-to-success stories happen in communities where there are very few economic opportunities. That actually proves my point that it's possible regardless of where you're from.

Their primary goal is to gain access to the industry, and if the industry does not provide them a way into it, then they will develop other avenues. Your reasoning denies this evident premise.


We can infer that there aren't many pilots for minorities demanded by the networks by their line-ups.Um, pilots for minorities or any race aren't demanded by networks. Ideas are brought to them and then they narrow them down according to various things such as the idea, contract, producer/writer/director positions, the camera style, etc. Like the Braves general manager said the other week, the talent pool for great players, or in this case tv shows, isn't deep enough to eliminate shows based on the race of people pitching the idea. Trust me, network know about the success that certain black shows have had and if they come across a great idea involving black actor(s) they will not turn them away.

[nfggc10]

The same position was taken by politicians/apologists for Jim Crow. They told civil rights leaders that they could not change, that it would take time and this turned whites off. The problem was, people that had to deal with insitutional repression did not want to wait, and viewed it as self-serving for individuals to request that they wait for minds to be changed. I tend to agree.Well, in my opinion we've come further than even Civil Rights activists would've thought by now. To expect instant equality in people's viewpoints is very naive and indeed does take time. It's just as self-serving, if you want to argue that, that those who had to deal with the repression wanted instant change. Again, I'm all for equal rights and opportunities but the way they approach it and the things the NAACP focuses their efforts on are for the most part the wrong issues.

Honestly, can you really tell me that the lack of black players in baseball is important when they make up over 70% of the NBA? Is it really that important that they're aren't that many black-focused sitcoms on tv even though they're very prominent in reality shows? Why is it ignored that the current favorite to win the Democratic presidential nomination and has a great chance to win the election is an African American? To me, that says more about where this country has come than calling out the Braves' general manager for having only one black player on our baseball team.

[SubrosaSeductiv]

Racism is not apart of the human psyche...

Racism is nurture.

By saying that it is compressed in the human mind at birth to be racist, then you'd agree that if one were to take a new born white child. Put it in complete isolation of the world. Educate him in all subjects of academics aside from history. And then put a black child raised under the same circumstances. They would automatically start calling one another racial slurs?

No they wouldn't. Why? Because racism is not instinct, it is learned.

[Nevuk]

I don't think 2 people qualifies as a community. Try this one. Raise a community of black children that way, and a community of white children that way. Then put one from each into the other, and you'd see racism. On both sides.

[Love As Arson]

Well, in my opinion we've come further than even Civil Rights activists would've thought by now.
We have come far, but not far enough.

To expect instant equality in people's viewpoints is very naive and indeed does take time.
I do not expect instant equality, but I also do not expect individuals to castigate programs meant to achieve equality. Further, it is wrong to say to someone that is struggling that they must wait for people to change their mind. If the Civil Rights Movement has taught us anything, it is that, through struggle, people's minds are changed, and it is complacency, that is, waiting for people to change, which allows the problems in our society to fester.

It's just as self-serving, if you want to argue that, that those who had to deal with the repression wanted instant change.
Their struggle was for the welfare of a group. Of course, they wanted rapid change in the policies of the country, because waiting was not viable for them.

Again, I'm all for equal rights and opportunities but the way they approach it and the things the NAACP focuses their efforts on are for the most part the wrong issues.
Being silent is not the proper way to approach it. It allows intolerant attitudes to prosper.


Honestly, can you really tell me that the lack of black players in baseball is important when they make up over 70% of the NBA? Is it really that important that they're aren't that many black-focused sitcoms on tv even though they're very prominent in reality shows?
It seems unimportant if you do not recognise that it is part of a larger societal problem.


Why is it ignored that the current favorite to win the Democratic presidential nomination and has a great chance to win the election is an African American? To me, that says more about where this country has come than calling out the Braves' general manager for having only one black player on our baseball team.
In all honesty, Barack Obama's candidacy, in terms of a very material change for blacks, is minimal.

How is that superficial? Superficial is the stance that you're taking assuming that their color/class is the reason why they aren't succeeding.
I refer to it as superficial, because one does not go deeper, and question the organisation of society, the disseminated norms and structure of our economy. Instead, it simply looks at the individual as independent of their circumstances, and blames them for their poverty.


Haha that is absolutely laughable. How many successful people do you know that have zero ambition?
I know of many people that were born into well to do families, and had that as a basis for their success.


And there are too many people that have succeeded in all professions despite their financial status to deem that it is the sole factor in determining one's future which you're implying by that last statement.
Speaking strictly from a sociological viewpoint, the majority of individuals that are in positions where they're earning a good deal of money were born with wealth. That isn't to say that they were extremely rich, but that there were opportunities available to them at birth. It is my position that this should be the case for every child.


Programs being cut don't stop people that have enough drive to succeed.
It will inhibit many from realising their dream, not because they do not have enough drive, but because of the added economic hardship. Certainly, from a middle class viewpoint, it should not stop them from succeeding, however, reality does not correspond with middle-class idealist; being lower class, having your Pell grants cut, while also having to maintain a job to survive, sometimes having to support a family, is incredibly difficult. But, if you believe that cutting programs has little to do with the ability of kids to enter college, then I am uncertain as to what to tell you, because the truth is evident.


It is in fact easier to blame the system because it is difficult to change and is the cop-out.
It may be difficult, but that does not stop anyone from trying to change it, which is immensely difficult. Blaming the individual absolves the state and ourselves of any responsibility for one another.



And it's easy to argue that the workers you mentioned that have low wages are actually happy to have a job and contribute to society any way they can.
Ha. Yes, I am certain that they enjoy being part of the working poor.


However, those who strive to have better will do what they can to move up the ladder.
Again, you side-stepped my argument. Our economy is a social pyramid, so there is little room at the top, and it is necessary to have a wide base of low-level workers to support that few. If, in our system, opportunities were available to all, there would be no way to turn a profit.


What? You're claiming that those nothing-to-success stories happen in communities where there are very few economic opportunities. That actually proves my point that it's possible regardless of where you're from.
I was asking why it is that gangs arise in areas where it is known that very few economic opportunities exist.


Um, pilots for minorities or any race aren't demanded by networks. Ideas are brought to them and then they narrow them down according to various things such as the idea, contract, producer/writer/director positions, the camera style, etc. Like the Braves general manager said the other week, the talent pool for great players, or in this case tv shows, isn't deep enough to eliminate shows based on the race of people pitching the idea. Trust me, network know about the success that certain black shows have had and if they come across a great idea involving black actor(s) they will not turn them away.
Then, why is it that we do not see these shows? The pattern you seem to be falling in is blaming the victim.

[Spewk]

how can people still be this racist? it seems like a mental problem.....

[nfggc10]

LoveAsArson, I respect your opinions but most of them just aren't based in reality. To assume that society works as a robot and can offer the EXACT same to each and every person just isn't realistic. Of course there will always be lower level workers but what you deem successful seems to be the very top of the ladder. That is just not the case. Not many people view the middle class as being at the top of their company or profession. And to say that the possibility of a black President in our country just a few decades removes from the Civil Rights era isn't that significant is absurd. I'm all for reforming our system for helping those that actually need it but since that can't happen over night it's up to them to overcome it which they have the opportunity to do. As for the tv shows, there's very few new shows that networks even give funding to and order episodes for after pilots so the pool of them that actually get that chance is very small. It's also easy to argue that most writers are white and write from that perspective. People that have your view point seem to always point the finger at areas where little progress is being made yet shun those that have come along way and positively serve the black community.


I've got a tennis match to go play but it's been nice discussing this with you and I'm sure we'll pick it up again.

[Love As Arson]

To assume that society works as a robot and can offer the EXACT same to each and every person just isn't realistic.
Why?
Of course there will always be lower level workers but what you deem successful seems to be the very top of the ladder. That is just not the case.
The American dream, which is what I take to be your view, is that one can be successful by starting their own business, being their own boss, etc. Quite simply, it is not possible in our system for the reasons I've stated.

And to say that the possibility of a black President in our country just a few decades removes from the Civil Rights era isn't that significant is absurd.
I did not say it was insignificant, but that the gains for blacks as a result will be very small.

I'm all for reforming our system for helping those that actually need it but since that can't happen over night it's up to them to overcome it which they have the opportunity to do.
Deferring to the effected group will not help us. Rather, we should organise with them in order to demand the necessary policies.

It's also easy to argue that most writers are white and write from that perspective.
That should say something.

People that have your view point seem to always point the finger at areas where little progress is being made yet shun those that have come along way and positively serve the black community.
Where have I denied that blacks have made progress? I have conceded that progress has been made, but upon viewing the realities of inequality, much still remains to be done.

[nfggc10]

Love As Arson, your opinions are pretty much void because you apparently are living in a Utopian society where these issues aren't a problem. Unfortunately the rest of us live in a world where individuals exist with different views, beliefs, backgrounds, etc... Believing that some blacks don't take advantage of their being a minority is very naive and you're ignoring too much history where they've abused it. Just because they were once treated harshly does not give them the right to yes, play the race card, in situations where they deserved to be treated poorly, fired, written up, etc... And you say that most sitcom writers being white should say something and I say to you that shouldn't then, the amount of black basketball players say something as well? Yet, I don't hear any "white activist" groups calling for a balance of proportions in the NBA or college teams. And nowhere does it say the American dream is being your own boss and running a business. The American dream is one that involves achieving one's desired level of success, which varies because we are indeed individuals and not robots which you choose to believe. And for you to think the possibility of an African American occupying arguably the most powerful position in the world being insignificant as far as racial equality progress goes, that doesn't give you much credibility either.

[Iamhome]

Love As Arson, your opinions are pretty much void because you apparently are living in a Utopian society where these issues aren't a problem. Unfortunately the rest of us live in a world where individuals exist with different views, beliefs, backgrounds, etc... Believing that some blacks don't take advantage of their being a minority is very naive and you're ignoring too much history where they've abused it. Just because they were once treated harshly does not give them the right to yes, play the race card, in situations where they deserved to be treated poorly, fired, written up, etc... And you say that most sitcom writers being white should say something and I say to you that shouldn't then, the amount of black basketball players say something as well? Yet, I don't hear any "white activist" groups calling for a balance of proportions in the NBA or college teams. And nowhere does it say the American dream is being your own boss and running a business. The American dream is one that involves achieving one's desired level of success, which varies because we are indeed individuals and not robots which you choose to believe. And for you to think the possibility of an African American occupying arguably the most powerful position in the world being insignificant as far as racial equality progress goes, that doesn't give you much credibility either.

Great point about the NBA. Why do no white people ask balanced proportions? Because they understand that the best athletes should play the game. Which can be said about anything - people get treated unfairly all the time - People treat me unfairly because I'm young, I look like I'm real young, I have tattoos, I am white, I do not have a degree...

Deal with it.

[nfggc10]

Great point about the NBA. Why do no white people ask balanced proportions? Because they understand that the best athletes should play the game. Which can be said about anything - people get treated unfairly all the time - People treat me unfairly because I'm young, I look like I'm real young, I have tattoos, I am white, I do not have a degree...

Deal with it.Exactly. I mean Jesse Jackson calling out the Braves' general manager because we only have one black player on our team really brought my opinion on this to a new level. Like the GM said, the talent pool of great players in baseball isn't large enough to be eliminating anyone based on race. I mean we just called up another black player who has been developing for a couple years and has done great so far. The issues they choose to attack just stump me and make me think even less of their cause. It's pretty sad that it's come to a point when black people even think people like Jackson are making a mockery of their fight.

[Love As Arson]

Love As Arson, your opinions are pretty much void because you apparently are living in a Utopian society where these issues aren't a problem.Unfortunately the rest of us live in a world where individuals exist with different views, beliefs, backgrounds, etc...
You are side-stepping the argument. Why is it impossible to provide each individual with the same opportunities? Considering the extensive wealth of the US, it seems entirely possible. There is nothing utopian about changing the way society works, as it has been done numerous times in the history of the world.

Believing that some blacks don't take advantage of their being a
minority is very naive and you're ignoring too much history where they've abused it. Just because they were once treated harshly does not give them the right to yes, play the race card, in situations where they deserved to be treated poorly, fired, written up, etc...Just because they were once treated harshly does not give them the right to yes, play the race card, in situations where they deserved to be treated poorly, fired, written up, etc...
Whether they do or do not is irrelevant, because this is a strawman, and as such, invalid.

And you say that most sitcom writers being white should say something and I say to you that shouldn't then, the amount of black basketball players say something as well? Yet, I don't hear any "white activist" groups calling for a balance of proportions in the NBA or college teams.
I think it is perfectly acceptable to question why it is that the NBA is made up primarily of minorities.

And nowhere does it say the American dream is being your own boss and running a business. The American dream is one that involves achieving one's desired level of success, which varies because we are indeed individuals and not robots which you choose to believe.
The American dream is the belief that one can work hard enough and gain prosperity. Now, this can be done by owning a business, being your boss, etc. I have submitted to you that this is not viable in our current economic model. You've yet to respond to the argument.

And for you to think the possibility of an African American occupying arguably the most powerful position in the world being insignificant as far as racial equality progress goes, that doesn't give you much credibility either.
Apparently, you are not reading the words that I have typed; I never said it was insignificant. I stated that the material conditions will not change fro blacks. That is, they will continue to be paid less than caucasians, disproportionately jailed at higher sentences, harassed, etc. Obama's presidency will do little to stop this. Have I clarified myself?

Which can be said about anything - people get treated unfairly all the time - People treat me unfairly because I'm young, I look like I'm real young, I have tattoos, I am white, I do not have a degree...
It is wrong for individuals to judge you by your looks, but let us not be intellectually dishonest, and presume to place it on the same level as that which minorities face.

[nfggc10]

Your arguments really aren't even worth responding to you but I will say that your "strawman" phrase isn't a valid form of response when you're negating factual situations of many people taking advantage of their being a minority. Past repression does not give a black person the right to claim racism when he's fired by a white boss despite having proved justification for the dismissal. Again, societies have indeed been changed but that has never occurred with the amount of people that are in this country and in the time frame of a few decades so to expect that we can all of the sudden change it and immediately give everyone the tools to succeed without doing so on their own is ridiculous. And you know why it's not acceptable to question why the nba is made up of minorities? Because no one on either side gives a shit. The numbers would indicate that a massive group of white fans haven't left the game because of it. The NAACP and other such groups have no interest in questioning it because it's exactly what they want to see. Yes, the American dream can be achieved by being your own boss and the reason it's not a viable option in our society is because everyone cannot work without a boss. There will always be lower level paying manual labor jobs and there will be high paying positions. However, the opportunities are there for someone with a drive to work there way up through such a system. The problem with your arguments is that you assume everyone is made up of the same desires, level of knowledge, etc. which we are not. Just because the opportunity is available to someone does not mean they will/want to take it.

[Iamhome]

It is wrong for individuals to judge you by your looks, but let us not be intellectually dishonest, and presume to place it on the same level as that which minorities face.

...It is the same thing. I've been turned down at jobs for who I am. People are prejudice against many things. I could've easily claimed unemployment, gotten on welfare, and gotten in a car with some friends, slam on my breaks in front of a wealthy looking person, crawl out of the car after they hit me saying I need to go to the hospital, and then say "Hey, if you give me $500 bucks we wont call the cops, we'll just take care of ourselves"... (this is actually something that has happened to a friend of mine...) But instead - I kept looking for a job until someone did hire me. There are many opportunities here - Yes even for minorities, they just have to want them bad enough.

[nfggc10]

...It is the same thing. I've been turned down at jobs for who I am. People are prejudice against many things. I could've easily claimed unemployment, gotten on welfare, and gotten in a car with some friends, slam on my breaks in front of a wealthy looking person, crawl out of the car after they hit me saying I need to go to the hospital, and then say "Hey, if you give me $500 bucks we wont call the cops, we'll just take care of ourselves"... (this is actually something that has happened to a friend of mine...) But instead - I kept looking for a job until someone did hire me. There are many opportunities here - Yes even for minorities, they just have to want them bad enough.Indeed it is the same thing. Prejudice is prejudice no matter how you look at it. To say one group deserves more of the attention for such discrimination is discrimination in of itself. There's no difference in a black man being turned away for his color and a guy with tattoos and piercing being turned away because of them.

[Iamhome]

Indeed it is the same thing. Prejudice is prejudice no matter how you look at it. To say one group deserves more of the attention for such discrimination is discrimination in of itself. There's no difference in a black man being turned away for his color and a guy with tattoos and piercing being turned away because of them.

Exactly... PROFESSIONAL black americans get hired all the time. People don't discriminate when someone carries themself well. It's the loose pants and loose polo shirt with a chain around your neck and a swagger in your speach that makes people not want to hire you - Even so, I have people like this working with me - And they are some of the best employees. The ones who aren't the best have already been fired - and it's not because they are black.

[catscradle]

Racism is not apart of the human psyche...

Racism is nurture.

By saying that it is compressed in the human mind at birth to be racist, then you'd agree that if one were to take a new born white child. Put it in complete isolation of the world. Educate him in all subjects of academics aside from history. And then put a black child raised under the same circumstances. They would automatically start calling one another racial slurs?

No they wouldn't. Why? Because racism is not instinct, it is learned.

Did you not understand a thing i wrote? Racism, in and of itself as a lone entity, is not part of the human psyche, but the tendency to categorize and group things as friend or foe is. Racism is a biproduct of such categorizations, thus making it a biproduct of the human psyche.

Yes, it is true that if you took a child and completely isolated them, race would not be an issue, but that child would still categorize the world around him in a manner of friend or foe. But in a real world situation, if you took a group of children of different ethnicities and seperated them into two groups based on their ethnicities, you would most likely discover that there would be a natural tendency for each one to view the other group as a seperate group, unlike their own. It's a part of our herd instinct to recognize different as bad.

[nfggc10]

Did you not understand a thing i wrote? Racism, in and of itself as a lone entity, is not part of the human psyche, but the tendency to categorize and group things as friend or foe is. Racism is a biproduct of such categorizations, thus making it a biproduct of the human psyche.

Yes, it is true that if you took a child and completely isolated them, race would not be an issue, but that child would still categorize the world around him in a manner of friend or foe. But in a real world situation, if you took a group of children of different ethnicities and seperated them into two groups based on their ethnicities, you would most likely discover that there would be a natural tendency for each one to view the other group as a seperate group, unlike their own. It's a part of our herd instinct to recognize different as bad.I completely agree.

[deapcutz]

Being born in America you are introduced to racism. Either you are being taught to be racist or being taught not to be! As a child i was taught never to judge by color- but to always be aware of it because so many people would judge me by mine. It sux that after all this time racism is just as big as just as real. But that is how it is and it will never go away. I live in the south and they really are use to racism like there is nothing wrong with it!(well some people anyway)

Racism is every where and every one should do there best to try and stop it. I don't want my children to grow up in a nation divied by color but i know they will and ther is nothing that i can do about it.

[Love As Arson]

but I will say that your "strawman" phrase isn't a valid form of response when you're negating factual situations of many people taking advantage of their being a minority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Past repression does not give a black person the right to claim racism when he's fired by a white boss despite having proved justification for the dismissal.
I never said that it did. I simply don't think it is particularly relevant in this discussion, nor is it a valid response to any of my crticism.

Again, societies have indeed been changed but that has never occurred with the amount of people that are in this country and in the time frame of a few decades so to expect that we can all of the sudden change it and immediately give everyone the tools to succeed without doing so on their own is ridiculous.
That is quite incorrect, as there have been many societies which have changed significantly over the span of a few decades. Further, I am still uncertain as to why it is ridiculous to provide everyone with the tools to achieve their full potential.

And you know why it's not acceptable to question why the nba is made up of minorities? Because no one on either side gives a shit.
I think it is worth studying why it is that minorities are drawn to sports. Is it something innate, a social construct, etc.?

The NAACP and other such groups have no interest in questioning it because it's exactly what they want to see.
Which is what?

Yes, the American dream can be achieved by being your own boss and the reason it's not a viable option in our society is because everyone cannot work without a boss.
Why?

There will always be lower level paying manual labor jobs and there will be high paying positions.
Why? If society is something that is made through human action, and is not independent of us, like a god of some sort, then it follows that we may configure it in any way we desire.

However, the opportunities are there for someone with a drive to work there way up through such a system.
I've already explained why I believe this is false. The very system within which we live presupposes a lower class, and as such, will have a wide base of lower-class workers.

The problem with your arguments is that you assume everyone is made up of the same desires, level of knowledge, etc. which we are not. Just because the opportunity is available to someone does not mean they will/want to take it.
That has never been my argument. Your argument, that is that the majority of the poor are simply taught to give up is the sort of argument you describe. In any case, my argument is that opportunity is disproportionately concentrated at the top, that the poor are subjected to worse schools, and as such, are deprived the opportunity to gain their full potential. What that may be, no one may say, but each person deserves an adequate standard of living, as well as all that society can provide for them, in order to make the best situation for themselves.

I will stop with this, which I'm not certain you will read, but I think it is pertinent to the discussion about inequality in our society:

Millionaires are so last millennium. The new Forbes 400 list of richest Americans is billionaires only.

If you're net worth is a mere $999 million, forget it. A billion means a thousand million, and that's the Forbes 400 minimum -- up from $900 million in 2005.

Donald Trump and two of his kids grace the Forbes 400 cover, but ranked No. 94 with $2.9 billion, Trump's a long way from No. 1 Bill Gates with $53 billion.

The combined wealth of the 400 richest Americans is a record-breaking $1.25 trillion. That's about the same amount of combined wealth held by the 57 million households who make up half the U.S. population.

The economy is booming for billionaires. It's a bust for many other Americans.

A record 400 Americans are billionaires -- and a record 47 million Americans have no health insurance.

America has 400 billionaires -- and 37 million people below the official poverty line.

The official poverty line for one person was just $9,973 in 2005 (latest data). That wouldn't cover the custom-made men's shoes ($4,128) and Hermes purse ($6,250) on the Forbes Cost of Living Extremely Well Index. The official poverty line of $15,577 for a three-person family is lower than the cost of the Patek Philippe men's gold watch ($17,600).

The Forbes 400 minimum is up $100 million since 2005, but the federal minimum wage has been stuck at $5.15 an hour -- just $10,712 a year -- since 1997. GOP leaders in Congress have been holding a raise for minimum wage workers hostage to more giant tax cuts for wealthy inheritors.

Wealth isn't trickling down. It's flooding up -- from workers to bosses, small investors to big, poorer to richer.

The heirs to Wal-Mart founders Sam and Bud Walton have a combined $82.5 billion -- while the children of Wal-Mart workers swell the ranks of state health insurance programs for the neediest.

In today's corporate America, workers see gutted paychecks and pensions despite rising worker productivity, while CEOs get golden pay, perks, pensions and parachutes. The pay gap between average workers and CEOs has grown nine times wider since the 1970s.

The number of billionaires is a record high, but the share of national income going to wages and salaries is at a record low.

U.S. corporate profits increased 21 percent in the past year, Market Watch reported in March. "Profits have been so high because almost all of the benefits from productivity improvements are flowing to the owners of capital rather than to the workers," said Market Watch.

The wealthiest 1 percent of Americans (minimum net worth $6 million) owned 62 percent of the nation's business assets, 51 percent of stocks and 70 percent of bonds as of 2004, according to the latest data from the Federal Reserve Survey of Consumer Finances -- which excludes the Forbes 400. That's way up from 1989, when the wealthiest 1 percent owned 54 percent of business assets, 41 percent of stocks and 52 percent of bonds.

Our growing economy is not producing a growing middle class, but a richer aristocracy.

The high point for median household income -- the income of the household in the middle -- was $47,671 in 1999, adjusted for inflation. In 2005, median household income was $1,345 less at $46,326. In the same period, the Forbes 400 gained more than 100 billionaires.
Government policies are fueling rising inequality. Taxpayers with incomes above $1 million will see their after-tax income grow by about 6 percent this year thanks to tax cuts the nation can't afford.

In an economy where money is flowing up to the very top, even college-educated workers are going backward. Inflation-adjusted median household income was lower in 2005 than 1999 even when the householder had a bachelor's degree, master's degree, professional degree or doctorate.

The problem is much bigger than the rich getting richer, while the poor get poorer. The really rich are getting richer at the expense of most everyone else.

Solutions include restoring the link between rising worker productivity and pay, raising the miserly minimum wage, narrowing the obscene pay gap between workers and CEOs, rolling back tax cuts for the wealthy -- and stop taxing income from work more than income from capital gains.

[Love As Arson]

Indeed it is the same thing. Prejudice is prejudice no matter how you look at it. To say one group deserves more of the attention for such discrimination is discrimination in of itself. There's no difference in a black man being turned away for his color and a guy with tattoos and piercing being turned away because of them.
Well, yes, there is. While the man may cover his tattoos, take out his piercings and revert back to his original hair color, an African-American cannot do the same thing. It may be the same thing, but they both contain very different ramifications, which should be evident.

...It is the same thing. I've been turned down at jobs for who I am. People are prejudice against many things.
Not all prejudice has the same effect, however. There is a difference between being racist against someone for the color of their skin, and disliking someone because they listen to Fall Out Boy. One has a larger social context, while the other does not.

There are many opportunities here - Yes even for minorities, they just have to want them bad enough.
I've addressed this argument a few times.

[nfggc10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


I never said that it did. I simply don't think it is particularly relevant in this discussion, nor is it a valid response to any of my crticism.


That is quite incorrect, as there have been many societies which have changed significantly over the span of a few decades. Further, I am still uncertain as to why it is ridiculous to provide everyone with the tools to achieve their full potential.


I think it is worth studying why it is that minorities are drawn to sports. Is it something innate, a social construct, etc.?


Which is what?


Why?


Why? If society is something that is made through human action, and is not independent of us, like a god of some sort, then it follows that we may configure it in any way we desire.


I've already explained why I believe this is false. The very system within which we live presupposes a lower class, and as such, will have a wide base of lower-class workers.


That has never been my argument. Your argument, that is that the majority of the poor are simply taught to give up is the sort of argument you describe. In any case, my argument is that opportunity is disproportionately concentrated at the top, that the poor are subjected to worse schools, and as such, are deprived the opportunity to gain their full potential. What that may be, no one may say, but each person deserves an adequate standard of living, as well as all that society can provide for them, in order to make the best situation for themselves.

I will stop with this, which I'm not certain you will read, but I think it is pertinent to the discussion about inequality in our society:haha dude you can't base your entire argument based on responding to every comment with "why." The workings of society are far too complex and you're far too naive and idealistic to form a respectable view on this issue.

[Love As Arson]

haha dude you can't base your entire argument based on responding to every comment with "why."
It is one of the most important questions one must ask, especially if someone supposes that something will always be a particular way. I find the argument that "Things will always be this way" particularly vacuous.. So, again, I will ask why society has to work this way? One finds that there have been numerous egalitarian societies, in which there was no boss per se, and individuals shared equally with one another.


The workings of society are far too complex and you're far too naive and idealistic to form a respectable view on this issue.
My assessment of society is rooted in historical materialism. That is, the suppositiion that economic basis for society determines the way in which individuals will relate to one another, and, morever, rather than society being an object independent of us, it is merely a sum of our social relations and can be changed if the people so desire it.

[nfggc10]

It is one of the most important questions one must ask, especially if someone supposes that something will always be a particular way. I find the argument that "Things will always be this way" particularly vacuous.. So, again, I will ask why society has to work this way? One finds that there have been numerous egalitarian societies, in which there was no boss per se, and individuals shared equally with one another.Of course it is one of the most important questions to ask but when using them as you sole defense it doesn't do much for you. Those societies you speak of never started from the point that the U.S. finds itself in so that's pretty much irrelevant. I never said things will always be this way but they can change but it's a difficult task that does not happen over night.



My assessment of society is rooted in historical materialism. That is, the suppositiion that economic basis for society determines the way in which individuals will relate to one another, and, morever, rather than society being an object independent of us, it is merely a sum of our social relations and can be changed if the people so desire it.These are not the same thing ad the basis for our social relations is dependent upon many factors and economic conditions is merely one of them. Again, your views are based too much on an idealistic point of view and you ignore how far off we are right now from what you envision to be possible and how difficult it would be to warp our society into that.

[Love As Arson]

Of course it is one of the most important questions to ask but when using them as you sole defense it doesn't do much for you.
When an individual makes matter of fact statements regarding the nature of society, it is the first question that comes to mind.

Those societies you speak of never started from the point that the U.S. finds itself in so that's pretty much irrelevant.
Its relevancy lies in the ability for humans to found and sustain an egalitarian society. Moreover, the world, with its vast amount of wealth and the productive tools which allow us to produce massive amounts food, is able to achieve this sort of thing worlwide.

I never said things will always be this way but they can change but it's a difficult task that does not happen over night.
There will always be lower level paying manual labor jobs and there will be high paying positions.


These are not the same thing ad the basis for our social relations is dependent upon many factors
All of which have to do with the material development of humanity.


Again, your views are based too much on an idealistic point of view and you ignore how far off we are right now from what you envision to be possible and how difficult it would be to warp our society into that.
I never ignored that. I made a statement earlier about struggling with one another in order to change things.

[Iamhome]

Well, yes, there is. While the man may cover his tattoos, take out his piercings and revert back to his original hair color, an African-American cannot do the same thing. It may be the same thing, but they both contain very different ramifications, which should be evident.
Not all prejudice has the same effect, however. There is a difference between being racist against someone for the color of their skin, and disliking someone because they listen to Fall Out Boy. One has a larger social context, while the other does not.

Much like I had to deal with the prejudice and go find a place that WILL hire me, someone else dealing with prejudice (racism included) should do the same. My only point is that you cannot get discouraged and use this for a reason as to why you CAN'T get a job. Because the truth is, you could, if you tried harder.

[Sleepaway]

Could this thread be any more full of marxist rhetoric.

[Iamhome]

Could this thread be any more full of marxist rhetoric.

I'm sure it could be, Mr. rhetorical question.

[Love As Arson]

Much like I had to deal with the prejudice and go find a place that WILL hire me, someone else dealing with prejudice (racism included) should do the same. My only point is that you cannot get discouraged and use this for a reason as to why you CAN'T get a job. Because the truth is, you could, if you tried harder.
Racism is thoroughly instilled within our society. With that said, shouldn't we enact laws to stop such prejudice? That is the point I am trying to elucidate.

[nfggc10]

Racism is thoroughly instilled within our society. With that said, shouldn't we enact laws to stop such prejudice? That is the point I am trying to elucidate.Racism along with every prejudice is a part of our society. But in reality, you cannot make laws that control people's own views of such subjects. I don't see why you can't understand that. There's no cure, except possibly time, that will rid society of prejudice thought.

[Love As Arson]

Racism along with every prejudice is a part of our society. But in reality, you cannot make laws that control people's own views of such subjects. I don't see why you can't understand that. There's no cure, except possibly time, that will rid society of prejudice thought.
You can, however, make laws to prevent those views from adversely affecting others, which lays the foundation for further progress.

[nfggc10]

You can, however, make laws to prevent those views from adversely affecting others, which lays the foundation for further progress.True but one could argue that the ease in which such laws can be abused negates some of the progress. The line that defines one's intent in such situations is too blurred to say that such laws will definitely lead to great progress.

[Iamhome]

Racism is thoroughly instilled within our society. With that said, shouldn't we enact laws to stop such prejudice? That is the point I am trying to elucidate.

You should quit thinking that racism is white on black 100% of the time - I would venture out to say that for every white person that hates black people there is an equal black person that hates white people, and a mexican person who hates el salvadorians, and a german who hates korean...

Are we going to create laws to prevent every type of racism or just the one that has a historical background that is not even in effect today.

[Love As Arson]

True but one could argue that the ease in which such laws can be abused negates some of the progress. The line that defines one's intent in such situations is too blurred to say that such laws will definitely lead to great progress.
The slippery slope argument is innately fallacious. A similar line of logic is used by right-wing Christians against gay marriage.

[Love As Arson]

You should quit thinking that racism is white on black 100% of the time - I would venture out to say that for every white person that hates black people there is an equal black person that hates white people, and a mexican person who hates el salvadorians, and a german who hates korean...

Are we going to create laws to prevent every type of racism or just the one that has a historical background that is not even in effect today.
No, quite simply, we may create a general law that prohibits any sort of prejudice from being used to deny people their rights. The reason for which I speak of caucasians is because they represent the dominant culture in our society.

[nfggc10]

The slippery slope argument is innately fallacious. A similar line of logic is used by right-wing Christians against gay marriage.Just because you put into laws that help curb racial prejudice doesn't mean people's views on it will change as well. Gay marriage is very similar in that if it is legalized there will still be those that think it is wrong but you will not change their minds.

No, quite simply, we may create a general law that prohibits any sort of prejudice from being used to deny people their rights. The reason for which I speak of caucasians is because they represent the dominant culture in our society.Which is why we are represented far more in most institutions. This is a primary problem in your thinking. Just because there's equal opportunity it doesn't mean that on a pure numbers basis minorities will be equal to whites.

[Iamhome]

No, quite simply, we may create a general law that prohibits any sort of prejudice from being used to deny people their rights. The reason for which I speak of caucasians is because they represent the dominant culture in our society.


There are already laws in place and if those aren't good enough - go to an 'equal opportunity employer'... The problem is when people abuse the system by creating false claims to further themselves, they ruin it for everyone else. Will this end? Maybe when people stop being so lazy and wanting everything given to them.

[nfggc10]

There are already laws in place and if those aren't good enough - go to an 'equal opportunity employer'... The problem is when people abuse the system by creating false claims to further themselves, they ruin it for everyone else. Will this end? Maybe when people stop being so lazy and wanting everything given to them.The fact that I know he'll come back and blame the "system" for their "laziness" still blows my mind. But. when the same system offers great opportunities to minorities and those that take advantage of them have no place in his responses. I'm not sure if he's ever addressed except for once when he claimed success stories occurred in communities that offered little to minorities which actually justifies our opinion while refuting his own.

[Love As Arson]

The fact that I know he'll come back and blame the "system" for their "laziness" still blows my mind.
I reject the notion that this is solely an issue of personal responsibility, that individuals are independent of their society and that there is no correlation between the extreme inequality which pervades our economy and the lack of mobility in our society.

But. when the same system offers great opportunities to minorities and those that take advantage of them have no place in his responses. I'm not sure if he's ever addressed except for once when he claimed success stories occurred in communities that offered little to minorities which actually justifies our opinion while refuting his own.
I responded to your argument earlier. It is indicative of the nature of the system that only one percent of individuals born into the bottom ten percent are likely to move out of their class.


There are already laws in place and if those aren't good enough - go to an 'equal opportunity employer'...
Apparently, they are not good enough, as we still find this:

A recent study shows that people with "white-sounding" names are 50 percent more likely to get a response to their resume than are those with "black-sounding" names.

It's true that minorities' share of the workforce grew over the decade, which could have led to a corresponding rise in clashes. Yet racial harassment charges have jumped by 100% since 1990, while minority employment grew by 36%. What's more, most charges involve multiple victims, so each year the cases add up to tens of thousands of workers--mostly blacks, but also Hispanics and Asians.

The problem is when people abuse the system by creating false claims to further themselves, they ruin it for everyone else.
Ah, so the inequality is founded within those who are most affected by it.
Maybe when people stop being so lazy and wanting everything given to them.
As I said earlier, either the vast majority of people are lazy, or there is a systemic problem.


Just because you put into laws that help curb racial prejudice doesn't mean people's views on it will change as well.
It will help establish norms regarding prejudice, just as the Civil Rights Movement did.


marriage is very similar in that if it is legalized there will still be those that think it is wrong but you will not change their minds.
By your logic, we should not do anything, as individuals will never change their mind.


Which is why we are represented far more in most institutions.Just because there's equal opportunity it doesn't mean that on a pure numbers basis minorities will be equal to whites.
My meaning when I refer to the "dominant group", is the group that tends to make up the economic, cultural and political power-structure. In any case, even if one adjusts by the percentage of the populace they make up, they are still not represented equally.

[nfggc10]

I reject the notion that this is solely an issue of personal responsibility, that individuals are independent of their society and that there is no correlation between the extreme inequality which pervades our economy and the lack of mobility in our society.I never said there was no correlation. However, my views are that it represents an overestimated amount in the ratio.


I responded to your argument earlier. It is indicative of the nature of the system that only one percent of individuals born into the bottom ten percent are likely to move out of their class."Likely" doesn't back up any of your points. "Likely" used in an argument is essentially as useful as throwing in a "should." If one percent of the bottom teo move out of that class than the opportunities are obviously there but the other percentage simply do not take advantage of them or in situations (such as single parents) that do not allow them to do so. Yes, the 'system" does play a role but not enough to justify the lack of movement from their class.



It will help establish norms regarding prejudice, just as the Civil Rights Movement did.Norms as in being a legally protected class. Not norms for how people develop their thoughts about other groups of people. That is a natural part of life and will always occur but it doesn't always end in being racist or sexist, etc. Just because you put laws into place doesn't mean the prejudices won't still occur in an informal social setting.



By your logic, we should not do anything, as individuals will never change their mind.That's not what I said at all and you're referring to my comment on gay marriage which is separate from this discussion. I said it should be legalized but there will always be people who oppose it and laws won't change that. It legalizes their "equality" as far as marriage goes but it won't affect people whose views are already decided.

[Iamhome]

Apparently, they are not good enough, as we still find this:
Did this study you found also take into account all of the qualifications needed to get these jobs? Or was this a biast study set out to prove something (like most are)...



Ah, so the inequality is founded within those who are most affected by it.

As I said earlier, either the vast majority of people are lazy, or there is a systemic problem.[/quote]
I am not saying the world is perfect. On a side note - I saw a documentary on the history of the KKK last night and I would like to mention - I am in no way prejudice against black people... I would just like to see the ones I am speaking about here get a breath of fresh air and start doing things to better themselves. I would like to see them motivated...

[Iamhome]

The fact that I know he'll come back and blame the "system" for their "laziness" still blows my mind. But. when the same system offers great opportunities to minorities and those that take advantage of them have no place in his responses. I'm not sure if he's ever addressed except for once when he claimed success stories occurred in communities that offered little to minorities which actually justifies our opinion while refuting his own.

He is full of what I like to call 'excuses'... I'm sure he wrote a book called 20 excuses as to why you can't get a job.

[nfggc10]

Did this study you found also take into account all of the qualifications needed to get these jobs? Or was this a biast study set out to prove something (like most are)...



As I said earlier, either the vast majority of people are lazy, or there is a systemic problem.
I am not saying the world is perfect. On a side note - I saw a documentary on the history of the KKK last night and I would like to mention - I am in no way prejudice against black people... I would just like to see the ones I am speaking about here get a breath of fresh air and start doing things to better themselves. I would like to see them motivated...
Well according to him free will plays no role in whether minorities can succeed, it's only a product of the system whether they do or. To place the blame on the system and disregard people's will/desire/heart is ridiculous. It's like placing blame on a manager in sports when players aren't performing. The only reason it's done is because it's always easier to blame/change one entity rather than the whole.

[Nevuk]

I am not saying the world is perfect. On a side note - I saw a documentary on the history of the KKK last night and I would like to mention - I am in no way prejudice against black people... I would just like to see the ones I am speaking about here get a breath of fresh air and start doing things to better themselves. I would like to see them motivated...
I'm a bit curious, what did you think of the history of the early KKK ? If memory serves, it was a slightly different movement from what it is now. Oh, its always been a racist organization, but in their earliest days it was just as much about northern carpetbaggers. And isn't it the most active/largest that its been since the 1920s?

And I'll be honest, most black people I know are hard workers, they just don't seem to think that school matters, and that it will never get them anywhere in life.

[SubrosaSeductiv]

I am not saying the world is perfect. On a side note - I saw a documentary on the history of the KKK last night and I would like to mention - I am in no way prejudice against black people... I would just like to see the ones I am speaking about here get a breath of fresh air and start doing things to better themselves. I would like to see them motivated...
Well according to him free will plays no role in whether minorities can succeed, it's only a product of the system whether they do or. To place the blame on the system and disregard people's will/desire/heart is ridiculous. It's like placing blame on a manager in sports when players aren't performing. The only reason it's done is because it's always easier to blame/change one entity rather than the whole.[/quote]


Poverty is cyclical by nature. I don't think people necessarily blame the system entirely for people being trapped within poverty, but it is a huge contributing factor. Pick up a book called Recent Discoveries in Psychology in case you haven't read this. Its pretty tight and has a great section on why people in extreme poverty can't escape it.

In summary of it. The section states that hopelessness, having no other options, and years of oppression are the main reasons for poverty still existing today. The sooner we understand and accept these reasons the sooner we can solve poverty.

[nfggc10]

In summary of it. The section states that hopelessness, having no other options, and years of oppression are the main reasons for poverty still existing today. The sooner we understand and accept these reasons the sooner we can solve poverty.You could say that but you could just as easily say that hopelessness is a state of mind that you have at least partial control over. There's usually options in any case but whether they're explored is another story. I don't really buy the years of oppressions argument either because it's a situational excuse. It's saying well minorities have a difficult time achieving success in a predominately white business culture but then disregard the millions of them that have steady jobs and have made a life for themselves and family. I'm going to Barnes and Noble later today though so I'll have to see if they have the book. I just prefer to base many of my opinions on the individual level rather than the "system" or "group" approach.

[Iamhome]

I'm a bit curious, what did you think of the history of the early KKK ? If memory serves, it was a slightly different movement from what it is now. Oh, its always been a racist organization, but in their earliest days it was just as much about northern carpetbaggers. And isn't it the most active/largest that its been since the 1920s?

And I'll be honest, most black people I know are hard workers, they just don't seem to think that school matters, and that it will never get them anywhere in life.

I came into the program a bit late so I only saw the 50's on... It showed the ups and downs, the reform of the KKK and the militaristic KKK of now. It was sickening; all of the hatred toward people just for being black. The leaders screaming "White Power" (Which Dave Chappell mimicks oh so well) and the murders of the confederate civil librities union members at their anti-KKK rally. The KKK came in a caravan of cars jumped out with guns and started firing on the peaceful protestors (there was actually live footage of this)... The KKK has no right for what they do - I'm all for empowering the people in whatever way neccessary - not hating a group because they, and I quote, 'were brought here as slaves and don't deserve to breathe the free air we've given them'... Sick.

[Iamhome]

And I'll be honest, most black people I know are hard workers, they just don't seem to think that school matters, and that it will never get them anywhere in life. I'll be honest - All of the black people I know are pretty damn hard workers themselves. My problem rests with going downtown and having to turn down 15 black people (5 white people and 7 hispanic people) all with their different stories on why they need cash, where they are coming from, where they are going, where their mom passed away and they trying to get a bus pass to her funeral. And then you offer to go to the bus station with them and they say, no that's okay I can go buy it I just need the money. I'm not fighting a stance on why racism is okay - I'm just saying if a certain group of people want another group of people to stop being racist - they need to clean up their act, as a whole. I do not judge ALL black people, or any other race for that matter, on the actions of a few of them - it's just that a lot of people are looking for a reason to hate black people, and instead of proving them otherwise a small or medium sized ammount of them still do the same things society hates. Crime. When I went to jail I was one of three white people in there (out of about 50). One white guy was a drunk who made up all kinds of stories of how rich he was (yet he seemed to me like a homeless person) and the other was too drunk to even talk. The conversations between the black people were interesting however - which is part of this argument. One guy said that the cop was racial profiling; yet he was carrying 50 pounds of weed in his car. That never came into his reasoning as to why he was in jail. I was in there for a certain reason - but I didn't blame the cop because he didn't read me my rights - or ask to search my vehicle - or even tell me I was being arrested. I was breaking the law and that was the sole reason that I was in jail.

It just seems to me like a certain few look for excuses to get out of their problems instead of placing blame on themselves and taking responsbility. I'm not saying this is only black people because everyone does it from time to time - I'm just stating what I have observed.

[Nevuk]

I came into the program a bit late so I only saw the 50's on... It showed the ups and downs, the reform of the KKK and the militaristic KKK of now. It was sickening; all of the hatred toward people just for being black. The leaders screaming "White Power" (Which Dave Chappell mimicks oh so well) and the murders of the confederate civil librities union members at their anti-KKK rally. The KKK came in a caravan of cars jumped out with guns and started firing on the peaceful protestors (there was actually live footage of this)... The KKK has no right for what they do - I'm all for empowering the people in whatever way neccessary - not hating a group because they, and I quote, 'were brought here as slaves and don't deserve to breathe the free air we've given them'... Sick.
Ah, yeah, the earliest incarnation of it was radically different than the later ones (The one that Nathan Bedford actually started). It was active directly after the civil war (1866-1871) and had a lot less to do with slaves than a bunch of people pissed off about reconstruction and northern politicians being granted full control of southern politics. Yeah, it was a racist organization, but that wasn't its real reason for existing. It was perverted pretty quickly from its roots, but its just an example of noble ideals easily going astray.

In 1915 it was revived to what we know today, by that film "Birth of a Nation".

[nfggc10]

I'll be honest - All of the black people I know are pretty damn hard workers themselves. My problem rests with going downtown and having to turn down 15 black people (5 white people and 7 hispanic people) all with their different stories on why they need cash, where they are coming from, where they are going, where their mom passed away and they trying to get a bus pass to her funeral. And then you offer to go to the bus station with them and they say, no that's okay I can go buy it I just need the money. I'm not fighting a stance on why racism is okay - I'm just saying if a certain group of people want another group of people to stop being racist - they need to clean up their act, as a whole. I do not judge ALL black people, or any other race for that matter, on the actions of a few of them - it's just that a lot of people are looking for a reason to hate black people, and instead of proving them otherwise a small or medium sized ammount of them still do the same things society hates. Crime. When I went to jail I was one of three white people in there (out of about 50). One white guy was a drunk who made up all kinds of stories of how rich he was (yet he seemed to me like a homeless person) and the other was too drunk to even talk. The conversations between the black people were interesting however - which is part of this argument. One guy said that the cop was racial profiling; yet he was carrying 50 pounds of weed in his car. That never came into his reasoning as to why he was in jail. I was in there for a certain reason - but I didn't blame the cop because he didn't read me my rights - or ask to search my vehicle - or even tell me I was being arrested. I was breaking the law and that was the sole reason that I was in jail.

It just seems to me like a certain few look for excuses to get out of their problems instead of placing blame on themselves and taking responsbility. I'm not saying this is only black people because everyone does it from time to time - I'm just stating what I have observed.Yeah I see what you're saying. I hate people that use argument that cops are racial profiling but they have little evidence to support that claim. The only reason is it's because when such instances occur they get media coverage or some type of attention. Yet, when the majority of them being pulled over have a justified reason for being so, those instances apparently are irrelevant. It's very similar to how younger adults are more likely to be pulled over than older adults but I would never claim that's solely because of age. More often than not those people are giving cops reason for pulling them over. Again, using the one size fits all argument is very weak as is denying the role of free will in determining the path one's life will take.

[Love As Arson]

I never said there was no correlation. However, my views are that it represents an overestimated amount in the ratio.
Your views conflict with reality. Further, you've yet to respond to the quotes I provided which speak of how inequality does fundamentally effect the ability of one to become a success in society.


"Likely" doesn't back up any of your points. "Likely" used in an argument is essentially as useful as throwing in a "should."
"Likely" infers probability, meaning that, as determined by various studies, the probability of an individual trascending class is incredibly low. One could toy with the terms, but the incredibly low chance for an individual to achieve the American dream remains.


If one percent of the bottom teo move out of that class than the opportunities are obviously there but the other percentage simply do not take advantage of them or in situations (such as single parents) that do not allow them to do so.
Either that, or the economic circumstances inhibit the vast majority from achieving what they could if provided the correct tools to do so. As I said, the "personal responsibility" argument is superficial and ultimately vacuous, because it does not take into consideration the conditions within which the individuals live.


Yes, the 'system" does play a role but not enough to justify the lack of movement from their class.
Considering the statistics that were posted a page or so ago, regarding the system, I would argue that the lack of movement is exactly the result of the failed model of the economy.


Norms as in being a legally protected class. Not norms for how people develop their thoughts about other groups of people. That is a natural part of life and will always occur but it doesn't always end in being racist or sexist, etc. Just because you put laws into place doesn't mean the prejudices won't still occur in an informal social setting.
The prejudices will not disappear, but laws do effect the accepted norms of the populace. The amount of racism that pervaded the country in the 60's was only stifled by, both work in the social sector and that of the law, that is, granting them rights, breaking up KKK, cracking down on businesses with prejudicial policies, etc. The main problem, however, is that they did not go far enough.


That's not what I said at all and you're referring to my comment on gay marriage which is separate from this discussion. I said it should be legalized but there will always be people who oppose it and laws won't change that. It legalizes their "equality" as far as marriage goes but it won't affect people whose views are already decided.
My comment is the logical extension of what you've been arguing. That is, the idea that individuals must deal with all sorts of prejudice, and changing the law will not do anything, so they must work around it.

[Love As Arson]

He is full of what I like to call 'excuses'... I'm sure he wrote a book called 20 excuses as to why you can't get a job.
Let us refrain from equivocating.

Did this study you found also take into account all of the qualifications needed to get these jobs?
The study was focused upon minorities with the same qualifications as caucasians not being hired due to "black-sounding" names.

Or was this a biast study set out to prove something (like most are)...
I believe it was conducted by Princeton as part of a study of unemployment in minority communities.


I would just like to see the ones I am speaking about here get a breath of fresh air and start doing things to better themselves. I would like to see them motivated...
First, we must provide them with the opportunities and tools to do so.

[theguy77]

racism is still here, yes, but very rare, and no longer in government but in society. that has to do with the ignorant public. and this is coming from a colored kid, ive never been stopped from anything because i have black in me. and ive lived in northern central florida previously for 10 years. (i had to specify northern central because its the only part of florida that really has the same southern cliches as georgia or alabama.) of course you cant completely get rid of prejudices, theres a worse prejudice for people considered ugly than for colored people.

[Love As Arson]

Well according to him free will plays no role in whether minorities can succeed, it's only a product of the system whether they do or. To place the blame on the system and disregard people's will/desire/heart is ridiculous
One's will is informed by society.

It's like placing blame on a manager in sports when players aren't performing.
A more accurate analogy would be a manager providing the sports teams with poor equipment, then expecting them to perform well.


The only reason it's done is because it's always easier to blame/change one entity rather than the whole.
I've been arguing in favor of transforming the whole of society.

You could say that but you could just as easily say that hopelessness is a state of mind that you have at least partial control over.
One could say that, but that treats the hopelessness as the disease rather than a symptom.

There's usually options in any case but whether they're explored is another story. I don't really buy the years of oppressions argument either because it's a situational excuse. It's saying well minorities have a difficult time achieving success in a predominately white business culture but then disregard the millions of them that have steady jobs and have made a life for themselves and family.
One can point to the success stories, but the data shows a lack of diveristy, as well as less wealth for minorities, despite the fact that they make up a signifcant portion of the populace.

I hate people that use argument that cops are racial profiling but they have little evidence to support that claim.The only reason is it's because when such instances occur they get media coverage or some type of attention. Yet, when the majority of them being pulled over have a justified reason for being so, those instances apparently are irrelevant.
Racial profiling is generally accepted, especially if the individual is an Arab. Further, it was/is very much a part of police work.

If you require support:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/racial_profiling/report/rp_report.pdf

At least 32 million (one out of nine) people in the United States report having been racially profiled.4 Additionally,on any day of the week,at least 87 million (almost one in three) people in this country are athigh risk of being victimized in this way because they belong to a racial,ethnic,or religious group whose members are commonly targeted by police forunlawful stops and searches.


The only reason is it's because when such instances occur they get media coverage or some type of attention.
It is derived from the notion that kids are irresponsible drivers.

More often than not those people are giving cops reason for pulling them over. Again, using the one size fits all argument is very weak as is denying the role of free will in determining the path one's life will take.
Generally, it tends to be the case that suspicion is already associated with the group, then they are stopped.

[Love As Arson]

Racism has decreased for blacks, but is as bad if not worse than ever for Mexicans and Muslims.
So much so that there has been a resurgence in groups like the KKK.

[theguy77]

Racism has decreased for blacks, but is as bad if not worse than ever for Mexicans and Muslims.

the racism for those two groups is just a cult. against mexicans because of the whole illegal immigrants issue and against muslims becuase supposedly muslim = terrorist even though the qur'an is anti-violence. however its not as widespread as you may imagine--theres still been no law preventing those groups from achieving anyhting nor any amendment allowing their prohibition--it still remains a relatively rare social issue.

[Iamhome]

Let us refrain from equivocating.

Apologies. It's just honesty.


The study was focused upon minorities with the same qualifications as caucasians not being hired due to "black-sounding" names.
I believe it was conducted by Princeton as part of a study of unemployment in minority communities.

This makes it more sound - it wasn't cited.


First, we must provide them with the opportunities and tools to do so.
Or they could work hard to find way to succeed like everyone else.

[Love As Arson]

Apologies. It's just honesty.
Equivocating is the method of argument, wherein an individual manipulates words in order to fashion an argument. For example, one uses the term "excuses" when an individual is speaking of the deeper social ramifications.


This makes it more sound - it wasn't cited.
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/mullainathan/papers/emilygreg.pdf


Or they could work hard to find way to succeed like everyone else.
Lower-class workers do work incredibly hard. Further, my point is that not everyone else is succeeding, rather, it is a small few, which must be dealt with.

[CountMeOut923]

I'm actually thinking about going through the 14 pages of this thread. I'm always interested in reading about the way people feel about racial issues in america. hmmm

[nfggc10]

Lower-class workers do work incredibly hard. Further, my point is that not everyone else is succeeding, rather, it is a small few, which must be dealt with.
1) Some lower class workers work incredibly hard.

2) Everyone in society cannot succeed no matter how much you "deal with it." You are under the incorrect assumption that each individual, regardless of class, has ambition or enough skills/knowledge to succeed. What does it say that even people who, at birth, have infinite opportunities available to them yet fail to take advantage of them?

[Love As Arson]

1) Some lower class workers work incredibly hard.
The working class is made up of individuals that do work hard in jobs that do not have very many benefits. Their productivity has steadily increased over the years, along with the hours they must work. Simultaneously, their wages have decreased over the decades.


2) Everyone in society cannot succeed no matter how much you "deal with it."
In class society, you are completely correct. However, I do believe that it is possible to construct an economy in which the interests of the people are served, therefore allowing them to draw out their potential, free from wage slavery with jobs they enjoy and a good standard of living.


You are under the incorrect assumption that each individual, regardless of class, has ambition or enough skills/knowledge to succeed.
My position, and I have reiterated it on several occasions, is that society does not provide individuals the opportunities to draw those things out.


What does it say that even people who, at birth, have infinite opportunities available to them yet fail to take advantage of them?
That their options are unsatisfying, or they can live comfortably without doing much work.

[ResideInMyMind]

I'm actually thinking about going through the 14 pages of this thread. I'm always interested in reading about the way people feel about racial issues in america. hmmm

find out if someone has mentioned how racist the death penalty is in america. if it hasnt been said, i think that needs to be addressed.

[Iamhome]

Equivocating is the method of argument, wherein an individual manipulates words in order to fashion an argument. For example, one uses the term "excuses" when an individual is speaking of the deeper social ramifications.


http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/mullainathan/papers/emilygreg.pdf


Lower-class workers do work incredibly hard. Further, my point is that not everyone else is succeeding, rather, it is a small few, which must be dealt with.

Interesting read (harvard)...

I'm saying that I honestly feel they are just excuses.

You should run for office.

[Nevuk]

I'm actually thinking about going through the 14 pages of this thread. I'm always interested in reading about the way people feel about racial issues in america. hmmm

It really is a fascinating read, it goes over a ton of different issues.

Oh, and racism is alive and very well in the south. It depends greatly on the area of the country, but I'd be hard pressed to name someone I know well who hasn't made some form of racist remark or other.

[Nevuk]

find out if someone has mentioned how racist the death penalty is in america. if it hasnt been said, i think that needs to be addressed.
Nope, we have gone over how more criminals in jail are minorities, but not that one yet. How so?

[nfggc10]

The working class is partially made up of individuals that do work hard in jobs that do not have very many benefits. Their productivity has steadily increased over the years, along with the hours they must work. Simultaneously, their wages have decreased over the decades.fixed.


In class society, you are completely correct. However, I do believe that it is possible to construct an economy in which the interests of the people are served, therefore allowing them to draw out their potential, free from wage slavery with jobs they enjoy and a good standard of living.I see it as next to impossible to construct something like that in the country we live in as it stands now. It's never a very realistic view if it depends on completely reforming the foundations of an entire society, nevertheless one as large and diverse as this country is.


My position, and I have reiterated it on several occasions, is that society does not provide individuals the opportunities to draw those things out.Ok, so to those who come from nothing and make a successful life for themselves they are apparently not provided with opportunities to achieve that status. Interesting. Perhaps you can talk to some who have done so and talk to them about how they shouldn't be in the class they now occupy and that others have no chance as well.



That their options are unsatisfying, or they can live comfortably without doing much work.Just because many middle to upper class jobs don't require manual labor like many lower paying jobs doesn't mean they "don't do much work."

[CountMeOut923]

It really is a fascinating read, it goes over a ton of different issues.

Oh, and racism is alive and very well in the south. It depends greatly on the area of the country, but I'd be hard pressed to name someone I know well who hasn't made some form of racist remark or other.

Once I moved to Chicago, I had class with tons of people from the midwest and the south. It definitely shocked me to hear their views on racism. It was great too because it was a sociology class so you really get to hear some great issues discussed.

[thejetstolehome]

find out if someone has mentioned how racist the death penalty is in america. if it hasnt been said, i think that needs to be addressed.

word.

[ResideInMyMind]

Nope, we have gone over how more criminals in jail are minorities, but not that one yet. How so?

While this site is obviously biased, there are some solid facts/statistics about racism and the death penalty.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=539#The%20Sounds%20of%20Racism

EDIT: of course, getting rid of racism in the death penalty won't make it any more justified.

[Nevuk]

Once I moved to Chicago, I had class with tons of people from the midwest and the south. It definitely shocked me to hear their views on racism. It was great too because it was a sociology class so you really get to hear some great issues discussed.
I'm from the south and not racist, but then I'm also a libertarian inclined towards anarchism. Both are about the same rarity here.

[CountMeOut923]

I'm from the south and not racist, but then I'm also a libertarian inclined towards anarchism. Both are about the same rarity here.

oh no, i'm not classifying everyone from the south/midwest as racist by any means. But, it was interesting to hear some of their viewpoints on the issues. There are plenty of people from both coasts that have interesting ones as well. It frightens me because I wonder when I'm my parent's age, what it will be like.

[ResideInMyMind]

I agree with the people who posted before me about that economics link. that was a good read man.

[Nevuk]

oh no, i'm not classifying everyone from the south/midwest as racist by any means. But, it was interesting to hear some of their viewpoints on the issues. There are plenty of people from both coasts that have interesting ones as well. It frightens me because I wonder when I'm my parent's age, what it will be like.
I've lived in the south all my life... I've gone to a church retreat, and watched in horror as some of my friends walked up to people they did not even know and started trading racial jokes. The worst part was, the people started trading them back. This on a CIY retreat(ugh, i hate christian shit) conference about being a good christian. I once was a christian, until I met other christians.

[Love As Arson]

fixed.
Where do you suppose record high profits are derived from? It is the working class. Your contention with my reference to their work seems to be done in order provide creedence to the belief that they are responsible for their poverty, rather than the reality that individuals work hard daily, and have little to show for it.


I see it as next to impossible to construct something like that in the country we live in as it stands now. It's never a very realistic view if it depends on completely reforming the foundations of an entire society, nevertheless one as large and diverse as this country is.
I agree in that I do not believe constructing such a society is possible currently, which is why reform is necessary in the short term, until there is focused effort to transform society. This has occurred many times throughout the history of the world and the US, despite, and even because of, the various differences between the populace.


Ok, so to those who come from nothing and make a successful life for themselves they are apparently not provided with opportunities to achieve that status. Perhaps you can talk to some who have done so and talk to them about how they shouldn't be in the class they now occupy and that others have no chance as well.
Apparently, you have failed to read the posts in which I have addressed your argument regarding those that have been successful. There is the one percent who does succeed in trascending class, but this cements my point, as it shows that social mobility is virtually non-existent in an unequal society.

Just because many middle to upper class jobs don't require manual labor like many lower paying jobs doesn't mean they "don't do much work."
I was referring to individuals that were born with various opportunities that simply chose not to do much of anything, because they do not have to worry about money.


I'm saying that I honestly feel they are just excuses.
What you feel does not always represent what is.

You should run for office.
I would never do such a thing.

[nfggc10]

Where do you suppose record high profits are derived from? It is the working class. Your contention with my reference to their work seems to be done in order provide creedence to the belief that they are responsible for their poverty, rather than the reality that individuals work hard daily, and have little to show for it.No, I never said they are completely responsible for their poverty. But I believe it's a primary component that their individual choices play a larger role.


Apparently, you have failed to read the posts in which I have addressed your argument regarding those that have been successful. There is the one percent who does succeed in trascending class, but this cements my point, as it shows that social mobility is virtually non-existent in an unequal society.No, I've read your attempted responses to this part of the issue. However, you've failed to come up with an explanation as to why such individuals are able to make successful careers for themselves coming from a background of poverty while others in the same area are not.

[music3chick]

Since I have been lurking in this thread for the last couple of days, I might as well post my opinion

If someone is born in a lower class status, the odds are already working against that person. Yes, there are the few individuals that can move toward the middle class or higher, but the majority stay in the lower class.

And education is not always the answer for a better life. For a person living in a poor neighborhood, more than likely, the local school is not going to be all that great. It is going to be in poor condition, textbooks will be out of date stating that Eisenhower is the current president, and the majority of the staff /teachers working there unmotivated about the future of the students themselves.

Basically, it is unfair to sit there and blame the poor for not working hard enough. There are so many problems that are keeping the poor in poverty and the rich wealthy. I am not implying that there are not the few who decide to sit around all day and do nothing, but I doubt the majority choose to be poor over having a better life for themselves and their family. Even though the federal minimum wage is slowly increasing, it's still not enough for a family to raise out of poverty.

Should I even mention insurance or that the blue collar jobs that require manual labor which can easily cause an injury for a family living from paycheck to paycheck? An injury can greatly set a family back and can eventually cause homelessness if no one is working soon enough.

[Iamhome]

What you feel does not always represent what is.
I was stating an opinion.

I would never do such a thing.
Well you're very opinionated.

[kofiadrian]

basically, the reason why i think racism exist is due to the fact that some people are faced with people, things, or customs that are new to them. because of the fact that it's new and unfamilar to them, they automatically don't trust such new thing. the premise of what i'm saying is that people hate things that they can't understand, or not used to.

[Love As Arson]

Well you're very opinionated.
Which is why I am an activist.

No, I never said they are completely responsible for their poverty. But I believe it's a primary component that their individual choices play a larger role.
I would disagree, as the individual's circumstances, that is, unequal schools, extreme poverty, hopelessness, having to work various jobs, and so on, play the largest role in one's ability to succeed.


No, I've read your attempted responses to this part of the issue. However, you've failed to come up with an explanation as to why such individuals are able to make successful careers for themselves coming from a background of poverty while others in the same area are not.
I have addressed it, but you consistently side-step the argument. You have yet to explain why it is that only one percent trascend class, which I would argue proves they are the exception to the rule. You have also failed to refute studies that show the lack of available opportunities correspond to class mobility. This shows that those individuals are the exception to the rule, rather than proving your rule.

[nfggc10]

I would disagree, as the individual's circumstances, that is, unequal schools, extreme poverty, hopelessness, having to work various jobs, and so on, play the largest role in one's ability to succeed.Well people really don't have much control over the schooling and poverty issues. However, hopelessness is a state of mind that can be controlled and just because those feelings are attempted to be passed on doesn't mean people have to believe that. Having to work various/multiple jobs are a way to make a living and experience in various situations is rarely a negative. You could also throw in that people living in poverty tend to give birth at an earlier age thus have to raise families at an early age but then again that is also something they have control over. As for the schools, if one's school does not allow them to gain the knowledge they seek they can go to libraries and such places if they want. Taking the initiative is never a bad thing yet someone with your point of view seems to think they should just sit back and bitch about the condition they were born into rather than striving to get out if.



I have addressed it, but you consistently side-step the argument. You have yet to explain why it is that only one percent trascend class, which I would argue proves they are the exception to the rule. You have also failed to refute studies that show the lack of available opportunities correspond to class mobility. This shows that those individuals are the exception to the rule, rather than proving your rule.I have side-stepped it because you're failing to address why there's people that can improve their status and what traits they possess that allowed them to do so. I don't care that it's a small percentage because that proves nothing to me except that it can happen. Again, if someone born into extreme poverty can come out of it ok then everyone has the same opportunity. There may some hindrances along the way such as poor schooling, having to work various jobs, raising a family but apparently those types of situations haven't stopped everyone.

[ResideInMyMind]

I have side-stepped it because you're failing to address why there's people that can improve their status and what traits they possess that allowed them to do so. I don't care that it's a small percentage because that proves nothing to me except that it can happen. Again, if someone born into extreme poverty can come out of it ok then everyone has the same opportunity. There may some hindrances along the way such as poor schooling, having to work various jobs, raising a family but apparently those types of situations haven't stopped everyone.

first of all, im no math major but 1% is hardly "the same opportunity." further, poorer schools, poorer areas, poorer family backgrounds, etc. are still in fact hindrances (as you have said) and do still stop most deprived humans from climbing the economic ladder.

and just because one's parent(s) is(are) impoverished, made mistakes, or were born into a poor family doesnt mean we shouldnt help him or her because people like you naively believe that they have "the same opportunity." im not saying that you were arguing this but if youre not willing to help the poor, you are still directly affecting their children- who are at no fault whatsoever.


Second of all, you are from america where we are supposed to take pride in equality of opportunity and meritocracy while we are so far from those ideals that it's disheartening to say the least. We are supposed to have- and should have- a meritocracy in america and yet its still very aristocratic.

Here is the basic article (with atrocious facts) by the economist dealing with this exact thing: http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2005/01/the_economist_o.html

if anyone is a subscriber to the economist, here is the actual article: http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3518560

[nfggc10]

first of all, im no math major but 1% is hardly "the same opportunity."You're twisting what the original intent of that statement. What I actually said that although the number is small it does represent those people that overcame their shortcomings to make a better life for themselves. Again, there's so much going on here that goes beyond our society's limitations that people don't focus enough attention on.

and second of all, you are from america where we are supposed to take pride in equality of opportunity and meritocracy while we are so far from those ideals that it's disheartening to say the least. We are supposed to have- and should have- a meritocracy in america and yet its still very aristocratic.Me being from America has nothing to do with this. In fact, I actually have just as many negative things to say about this country as I do positive ones and you can look around at a lot of my posts on this site to see that.

My whole point in this thread is to make people aware there's reasons behind the poor class movement statistics than solely the "system." I've never said that every single citizen here is open to the exact same opportunities but that there are, in most cases, certain opportunities open to people. However, whether those are explored and to what degree is a different issue.

[ResideInMyMind]

Well people really don't have much control over the schooling and poverty issues. However, hopelessness is a state of mind that can be controlled and just because those feelings are attempted to be passed on doesn't mean people have to believe that. Having to work various/multiple jobs are a way to make a living and experience in various situations is rarely a negative. You could also throw in that people living in poverty tend to give birth at an earlier age thus have to raise families at an early age but then again that is also something they have control over. As for the schools, if one's school does not allow them to gain the knowledge they seek they can go to libraries and such places if they want. Taking the initiative is never a bad thing yet someone with your point of view seems to think they should just sit back and bitch about the condition they were born into rather than striving to get out if.

-many children in poor families have to get jobs at early ages and thus have less time to "go to libraries and such."
-as for the second thing i pointed out, i bitch about it because it is economic injustice. rather than "sit back" (like, i would contend, you are essentially doing) we should help these deprived citizens escape poverty, not just be content with 1% or 10% (or w/e the # may be) working their way out of it.

[ResideInMyMind]

and i would still like you to read that article if you havent.

[nfggc10]

-many children in poor families have to get jobs at early ages and thus have less time to "go to libraries and such."
-as for the second thing i pointed out, i bitch about it because it is economic injustice. rather than "sit back" (like, i would contend, you are essentially doing) we should help these deprived citizens escape poverty, not just be content with 1% or 10% (or w/e the # may be) working their way out of it."Sitting back" would imply that I find nothing wrong with the statistics which is incorrect.

and i would still like you to read that article if you havent.
I scanned over them but they're based on the findings of economists which dismisses my point. I'm looking at it from a psychological/sociological view which examines the pieces of the whole. There's always reforms or such things that can be done at the state and federal level to help but I would like to open the issue up even more and explore what lies beneath. Again, it's always easier to blame/praise a system rather than breaking it down and looking at the opportunities/things that hinder progress on a more individual basis.

[ResideInMyMind]

so what can we do to fix the lack of economic mobility on an individual basis?

since this is where the argument is headed.

[nfggc10]

so what can we do to fix the lack of economic mobility on an individual basis?

since this is where the argument is headed.No, once again you're twisting what I'm saying. What I'm actually proposing, in addition to whatever reforms/regulations are passed, is to look at individual cases to see what allows those coming from poverty to succeed while others coming from similar/identical circumstances cannot or doesn't. Again, you seem to be under the impression that nothing is wrong which is incorrect. I'm simply stating that more needs to be done in the realm of examining the root causes under the surface for mobility and lack thereof.

[ResideInMyMind]

No, once again you're twisting what I'm saying. What I'm actually proposing, in addition to whatever reforms/regulations are passed, is to look at individual cases to see what allows those coming from poverty to succeed while others coming from similar/identical circumstances cannot or doesn't. Again, you seem to be under the impression that nothing is wrong which is incorrect. I'm simply stating that more needs to be done in the realm of examining the root causes under the surface for mobility and lack thereof.

oh alright that makes sense. im sure that there have been studies on this though... but maybe not the the extent that you would like. i wonder if anything like that is online.

and i still hold true to my earlier position, even if i misunderstood what you were getting at.

[Love As Arson]

Well people really don't have much control over the schooling and poverty issues.
They do, however, they are made to feel as though unequal schooling and poverty is their own fault.

However, hopelessness is a state of mind that can be controlled and just because those feelings are attempted to be passed on doesn't mean people have to believe that.
Hopelessness if fostered by those conditions.

Having to work various/multiple jobs are a way to make a living and experience in various situations is rarely a negative.
It is if they only allow one to barely subsist.

You could also throw in that people living in poverty tend to give birth at an earlier age thus have to raise families at an early age but then again that is also something they have control over.
I would argue that this goes to the state of education regarding the subject of sexual relationships.

As for the schools, if one's school does not allow them to gain the knowledge they seek they can go to libraries and such places if they want.
as another individual has said, the poor are forced to take on greater responsibilities at younger ages, and prevents them from doing as you suggest. Rather than finding ways around the problem, the schools could be made to finance equally and provide quality education. Moreover, the implicit message in the inequality in schools is that education is meaningless for these individuals, which is disseminated to the children.

Taking the initiative is never a bad thing yet someone with your point of view seems to think they should just sit back and bitch about the condition they were born into rather than striving to get out if.
My point of view is that one must work to change things on a broader level in order to find a salient difference in their conditions.


I have side-stepped it because you're failing to address why there's people that can improve their status and what traits they possess that allowed them to do so.
A series merit and non-merit related developments.


I don't care that it's a small percentage
It should be of some importance, as it shows how well the philosophy of personal responsibility bears out in reality.

because that proves nothing to me except that it can happen.
For a few individuals.

Again, if someone born into extreme poverty can come out of it ok then everyone has the same opportunity.
But, why can't the rest? Is it the case that every individual, aside from that one percent, is simply devoid of ambition?


There may some hindrances along the way such as poor schooling, having to work various jobs, raising a family but apparently those types of situations haven't stopped everyone.
Apparently, it has affected the vast majority, yet you continue to ignore this and place the blame on the people.

I recommend reading this article regarding the poor's attitude toward work:

http://www.ncsociology.org/sociationtoday/v2/wynn.htm

[open mind]

i support affirmative action, but got sick of debating why about 2 years ago because the people that don't like it never changed their minds. when confronted with logic and the idea of cause and effect they just fell back on calling me racist.

[open mind]

State's rights was the idealogical issue, but there was far more. Understand, no one fights a 4 year war that totally breaks themselves over just an idealogical issue. It was economics, the north was seen as holding the south down/back, due to this:
Straws that almost broke the camel's back were the cotton tariffs and other pro-northern economic policies. Essentially, the north and south had different economic styles, but as the north had more people, they were able to write pro-northern economic laws. The reason they had a different economic style could indirectly be related to slavery, but its a stretch to say thats the only reason why it was fought. Mostly seeing as, the majority of those on both sides of the war didn't care about that issue. The poor whites in the south fought as they saw the north holding them back. Really, it was southern aristocrats doing this, so they were fighting the wrong enemy.

Notice how Lincoln didn't issue the emancipation proclamation until years into the war? And even then, it was forced as a reason to prevent Britain and France from entering the war. Also seeing as how he issued it only for the region where he didn't have the policy to enforce it.... yes, slavery is a bit of a moral highground, used to justify the brutality of reconstruction. The north's actions in the war set the stage for the extreme level of brutality displayed in later wars.

Its like saying that no taxation without representation was the sole reason for the declaration of independence. Meaning, its a useful thing to tell people to justify the war in 3rd grade, but its an extreme oversimplification.

Edit: Even this is an extreme oversimplification, just look at the length of the wiki article on it, this is an issue most have differing opinions on : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_American_Civil_War

of course it was economics, when it comes down to it most every war is about them. let's face it having slaves instead of paid workers for employee's makes a hell of alot more sense if you're out to make money. so although slavery wasn't the only reason for the civil war, it amounts to the biggest reason, so in the end, when you cut through all the bullshit the civil war was about slavery.

[Nevuk]

of course it was economics, when it comes down to it most every war is about them. let's face it having slaves instead of paid workers for employee's makes a hell of alot more sense if you're out to make money. so although slavery wasn't the only reason for the civil war, it amounts to the biggest reason, so in the end, when you cut through all the bullshit the civil war was about slavery.
Fair enough, its just far more complex than the "Oh the north wanted to free the slaves and the south didn't, so they fought war about it!" that is taught in many schools.

[Iamhome]

Which is why I am an activist.

What do you do?

[oldwirehands]

Its a double edged sword in america. There are black people that hold a grudge against whites for what our ancestors did to them. No one likes to talk about that side. You always here people talk about white people being racist but its not just white people. I'm not a racist person by any means but I believe it is completely ignorant to bitch and complain about the past. Its funny how black people wanted to be treated as equals but now the generation now wants to be treated special or above everyone else. I don't care about the color of their skin, I'd be pissed if anyone acted this way.

The only way racism will cease to exist is if we get over what happened and just treated eachother as equals instead of requesting special attention. Unfortunately, I don't think its ever going to happen because people in america have an "I'm better than everyone." attitude. I hate this corporate culture and our society. It disgusts me. This country is full of itself and I'm almost ashamed to live in it.

[music3chick]

Its a double edged sword in america. There are black people that hold a grudge against whites for what our ancestors did to them. No one likes to talk about that side. You always here people talk about white people being racist but its not just white people. I'm not a racist person by any means but I believe it is completely ignorant to bitch and complain about the past. Its funny how black people wanted to be treated as equals but now the generation now wants to be treated special or above everyone else. I don't care about the color of their skin, I'd be pissed if anyone acted this way.

The only way racism will cease to exist is if we get over what happened and just treated eachother as equals instead of requesting special attention. Unfortunately, I don't think its ever going to happen because people in america have an "I'm better than everyone." attitude. I hate this corporate culture and our society. It disgusts me. This country is full of itself and I'm almost ashamed to live in it.

But what happened in the past is going to affect the future. Because of the discrimination in the past, the majority of African-American families were not able to build generations upon generations of wealth and family security. Civil Rights happened not that long along and they are still trying to build that same amount of success that other races were able to enjoy after settling in America. I don't see the problem with helping them toward that goal.

[oldwirehands]

But what happened in the past is going to affect the future. Because of the discrimination in the past, the majority of African-American families were not able to build generations upon generations of wealth and family security. Civil Rights happened not that long along and they are still trying to build that same amount of success that other races were able to enjoy after settling in America. I don't see the problem with helping them toward that goal.

But no one is holding them down, why should they get special treatment? Not all white families grow up in wealth you know. I use my parents for example because they both came from families with very little money.

My Dad's side were fresh out of Greece with not even a high school diploma. My Mom had six other brother and sisters and.. well lets just say that side is really messed. They had me early and got married a few weeks before I was born. From there they lived with my grandma, moved into an apartment, Mom had my little brother, lived with my grandma again, got a small house, and now live in a semi-big house. I'm sure it was hard enough to raise two boys let alone work your ass off for financial comfort. I just turned 21 so basically they went from poverty to decent wealth in 21 years. Neither of them have University degrees either.

No one is holding anyone back.

[music3chick]

But no one is holding them down, why should they get special treatment? Not all white families grow up in wealth you know. I use my parents for example because they both came from families with very little money.

My Dad's side were fresh out of Greece with not even a high school diploma. My Mom had six other brother and sisters and.. well lets just say that side is really messed. They had me early and got married a few weeks before I was born. From there they lived with my grandma, moved into an apartment, Mom had my little brother, lived with my grandma again, got a small house, and now live in a semi-big house. I'm sure it was hard enough to raise two boys let alone work your ass off for financial comfort. I just turned 21 so basically they went from poverty to decent wealth in 21 years. Neither of them have University degrees either.

No one is holding anyone back.

Yes, not all Caucasian families grow up in wealth, but they have more of an opportunity to gain some kind of stability because their race never faced discrimination in the United States. African-Americans have and still do to a point.

I agree that not many people are holding them back today as in the past. But I don't see what you mean by "special treatment". By giving them the same opportunities as other races?

[oldwirehands]

Yes, not all Caucasian families grow up in wealth, but they have more of an opportunity to gain some kind of stability because their race never faced discrimination in the United States. African-Americans have and still do to a point.

I agree that not many people are holding them back today as in the past. But I don't see what you mean by "special treatment". By giving them the same opportunities as other races?

They get more opportunities. Not to mention if something doesn't go their way they can always claim it to be a racism issues. It happens everyday and I don't see how its right in anyway. There's only one term to be used for these kind of people... white trash. I used that term because there are white people that try to take advantage of the system as well. It just so happens its easier for black people to do that.

I don't like trashy people. I'm not going to defend them.

[music3chick]

They get more opportunities. Not to mention if something doesn't go their way they can always claim it to be a racism issues. It happens everyday and I don't see how its right in anyway. There's only one term to be used for these kind of people... white trash. I used that term because there are white people that try to take advantage of the system as well. It just so happens its easier for black people to do that.

I don't like trashy people. I'm not going to defend them.

Maybe it "happens everyday" because racism happens everyday. And they get the same opportunities as other races. I don't see how demanding equal treatment is being "trashy".

Wow.

[oldwirehands]

Maybe it "happens everyday" because racism happens everyday. And they get the same opportunities as other races. I don't see how demanding equal treatment is being "trashy".

Wow.

You're completely oblivious and are apart of the problem. You'll one day see why certain poor people stay poor. White, black, latino, whatever. Trash is trash and America is full of it because, as a nation, we're spoiled and lazy.

[Khaos]

people shouldn't even focus on race, i don't look at people by their race but by their actions

[oldwirehands]

people shouldn't even focus on race, i don't look at people by their race but by their actions

Exactly.

[music3chick]

You're completely oblivious and are apart of the problem. You'll one day see why certain poor people stay poor. White, black, latino, whatever. Trash is trash and America is full of it because, as a nation, we're spoiled and lazy.

You are the one that is missing the point.

The fact is that racism still goes on. It's not fair to blame and punish the majority of the poor for the minority who do decide to the be lazy. Not everybody can simply raise out of poverty by just working hard. Because if that was the case, the income gap between the poor and the rich wouldn't continue to grow (http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/nation/16760690.htm?template=contentModule s/printstory.jsp) .

Another article that discusses poverty. (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4081/is_200601/ai_n17187830)
According to the Census Bureau, the poverty rate rose from 12.5 percent in 2003 to 12.7 percent in 2004. The Black poverty rate - 24.7 percent - is almost twice that of the general population. About 9.4 million African Americans, almost one-in-four, lived below the poverty line in 2004. That figure includes an increase of more than 1.4 million ., Black people (equivalent to the entire population of Phoenix, Ariz.) who have slipped into poverty since 2000.

the poor are disproportionately Black, women and children.

[chronomic]

http://www.allstates-flag.com/fotw/images/f/fic-spk2.gif

"and look, its even more less racist because theres another black dude there"

[oldwirehands]

You are the one that is missing the point.

The fact is that racism still goes on. It's not fair to blame and punish the majority of the poor for the minority who do decide to the be lazy. Not everybody can simply raise out of poverty by just working hard. Because if that was the case, the income gap between the poor and the rich wouldn't continue to grow (http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/nation/16760690.htm?template=contentModule s/printstory.jsp) .

Another article that discusses poverty. (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4081/is_200601/ai_n17187830)

I stopped reading after that. The majority of the people who continue to live in poverty for generations are lazy. And no one is punishing anyone. We live in a free country where the opportunities are endless. Everyone gets chances here.

[music3chick]

I stopped reading after that. The majority of the people who continue to live in poverty for generations are lazy. And no one is punishing anyone. We live in a free country where the opportunities are endless. Everyone gets chances here.

I guess you didn't read the articles then :rolleyes:

Those statements might be true in an utopia maybe

The majority of people who are poor work 9 to 5's,

anyone who works a 9 to 5 is far from lazy.

Exactly, and not to mention overtime too

[Lueda Alia]

I stopped reading after that. The majority of the people who continue to live in poverty for generations are lazy. And no one is punishing anyone. We live in a free country where the opportunities are endless. Everyone gets chances here.
Have you heard of the Cycle of Poverty?

[Nevuk]

Seriously, we keep bringing up the one percent who rise out of poverty.... how many of these are rap artists, drug dealers, or some other trade thats similar?

The incredibly low amount of people who rise out of poverty... there are 2 capitalist books on the subject. One is rather old, the other is based on it. "The Richest Man in Babylon" and "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" are two I've read on the subject. The latter is rather popular, and basically asserts that the poor are poor because they don't receive the life lessons that the rich do (essentially, save a certain amount of money and don't spend any money).

[oldwirehands]

I don't think anyone realizes that I am one of those people who live in poverty. Literally, I make under 10k a year. According to the government, I am extremely poor (trust me, I am). I'm selling all of my belongings now in an attempt to pay off my debt, so soon I won't have anything at all. Not to mention I'll be living in a car and random couches for who knows how long. I CHOOSE to live this way! I have my reasons. If I wanted to, I could get a good paying job and go to school. I could go to the local university, a community college, or go into a trade. Its hard work, I know because I lived that life for about eight months.

Nobody is stopping you from making money in this country. Its there, just work for it. These are my beliefs and its what I stand by. Maybe I am wrong but I don't care about the subject enough to read about it. I care enough to state how I feel, argue it to the best of my knowledge, and if you don't dig it, thats fine. I admit, my beliefs on the subject is weak, so you guys shouldn't make a big deal about it. I'm not some sort of biggot.

The whole point I was only trying to make is we should all be treated the same no matter what our race. There are black people, as well as whites to, who believe they should be treated as if they're better than the other. I find it more amazing how many people can completely ignore that races other than whites can be racist. That is pretty offensive to me.