Same-sex marriage

[NIFTYNICKO]

Same-sex marriage is a hot topic in politics today and will be for awhile. I believe it's important to get educated about it. Check out this site I made for more info on it http://www.freewebs.com/marriageforall/.

[thejetstolehome]

gay marriage should be legal.

[tambam]

This topic has been debated to death on here.

[thejetstolehome]

not in a while though. :shrug:

i don't see anyone who consistently posts here now that's against it, though. save for like 3 people.

[tambam]

not in a while though. :shrug:

i don't see anyone who consistently posts here now that's against it, though. save for like 3 people.

Yeah, and it usually ends the same way. We all gang up on said three people and drive them away. Haha.

[thejetstolehome]

haha exactly.

isn't that how your "God Debate" thread ended?

[tambam]

haha exactly.

isn't that how your "God Debate" thread ended?

Yeah, I think so. I don't remember who drove who out, though.

[thejetstolehome]

i just bumped it--the last few pages were Ghostbusters talk, haha. AWESOME!

[nfggc10]

Of course it should be legal and the only reason it probably won't be any time soon is because the U.S. is still a faith-based nation for the most part. It's sad but once again religious beliefs prove to be a hindrance in progressing this country into the future. It is quite humorous though listening to people try and defend their argument against its legalization.

[tambam]

i just bumped it--the last few pages were Ghostbusters talk, haha. AWESOME!

Haha, sweet. I'll go take a look, it's been a while.

[Jason Tate]

I judge anyone that doesn't think it should be legal.

[nfggc10]

I judge anyone that doesn't think it should be legal.As do I but then again I tend to judge people who aren't for the legalization of marijuana also.

[aminorthreat55]

As do I but then again I tend to judge people who aren't for the legalization of marijuana also.
I'm not but pretty much just because of the tobacco companies.

[trindaddy]

mary jane- yes
gay marriage- of course
weed wont be legal because of lobbying in congress and many conservatives.
gay marriage wont be legal (for awhile i think) because of christians and conservatives.

those are three things i'd like to see less of in the government right now.

[BlackButterfly]

norway will have legal gay marriage and adoption later this year if everything go after the plan...

[xBORNxFORxTHIS]

I would like to get married so it should be legal, im not going to never get married because some people dont like it, everyone should have the right to be married, We arent bothering anyone, so why does anyone care if we get married, almost all of the ones against it dont know us, so who are they to say i cant get married? I dont know them.

[nfggc10]

Gay marriage will be legal in the US eventually.

Its legal in Europe and socially we tend to lead the way, not always but usually. America will follow eventually.

It will be legal in the next ten years. Sooner if Democrats get into office.Yep, we're so far behind on many social issues and the main hindrance has always been the importance placed on religion and it's sad that such a ridiculous social concept is preventing us from moving into the future. It's just amazing to me how people could be so much against a legalization that will have zero effect on their own lives.

[Sleepaway]

Why is this even an issue?

[nfggc10]

Why is this even an issue?
Because christian nutcases make it an issue.

[Sleepaway]

Because christian nutcases make it an issue.

The thing about that is, that if you're a "christian nutcase" then obviously you are not gay. So, then why would you care if the gay people being married are "going to hell"?
I mean, they wouldn't be going to hell, so why do they care so much gay people do when they are consistantly condemming people for their sins?

Did that make sense?

[nfggc10]

The thing about that is, that if you're a "christian nutcase" then obviously you are not gay. So, then why would you care if the gay people being married are "going to hell"?
I mean, they wouldn't be going to hell, so why do they care so much gay people do when they are consistantly condemming people for their sins?

Did that make sense?Haha yeah that made sense. I've just never understood their stance on it when it would no effect on their lives. And the "seeing them in public arenas and being reminded of their sins" argument is just as ridiculous as anything else they believe.

[lew_1987]

i have gay neighbours and its quite funny cause my mum and dad are against homosexuality, so i hear some funny comments coming from them. i am not though.

[Shatter590]

my view: why should homosexual couples be denied the same torture as the rest of us. let them marry.

[Iamhome]

my view: why should homosexual couples be denied the same torture as the rest of us. let them marry.


Haha...
nice



I'm a 'christian nutcase' but I don't have a problem with gay marriage. I see christianity as a personal spiritual relationship and not a law written to control. The bible even says live in the world but not of the world - it never said 'use this book as leverage to control the government to be more religiously influenced.'

[Shatter590]

Haha...
nice



I'm a 'christian nutcase' but I don't have a problem with gay marriage. I see christianity as a personal spiritual relationship and not a law written to control. The bible even says live in the world but not of the world - it never said 'use this book as leverage to control the government to be more religiously influenced.'

see, that makes sense.

what i dont get is why the government and conservatives want to rid the world of islamist states based on their law code, but then rally round the bible for making our own laws? whats the differenced?

[Iamhome]

see, that makes sense.

what i dont get is why the government and conservatives want to rid the world of islamist states based on their law code, but then rally round the bible for making our own laws? whats the differenced?

Because 'our religion is better than theirs' (their reasoning)... Anyway, it makes sense if you think about it. A majority of the voters here in America are 'christian' or follow christian beliefs (claim to)... therefore if a lawmaker puts a christians spin on a law and shows how it is keeping christain beliefs in mind, they will have a large percent of people voting due to the group it is supporting. If I didn't have a personal relationship with God - christianity would not be for me. There is way to much politics in this sect of society today...

[Broken Parachute]

I couldn't care less about same sex marriage. I'm against it because it's totally against my beliefs, but if a law was passed that allowed it, it really wouldn't effect my life.

[Shatter590]

Because 'our religion is better than theirs' (their reasoning)... Anyway, it makes sense if you think about it. A majority of the voters here in America are 'christian' or follow christian beliefs (claim to)... therefore if a lawmaker puts a christians spin on a law and shows how it is keeping christain beliefs in mind, they will have a large percent of people voting due to the group it is supporting. If I didn't have a personal relationship with God - christianity would not be for me. There is way to much politics in this sect of society today...

but by that same token, the government is not allowed to have religion dictate social policy. it doesnt matter if 70% or even 80% of the country is christian, because that means that 20-30% is not and thus should not be bound by laws based in a religion they dont follow. anything else would fly in the face of every principle the country was founded on, including religious tolerance and diversity.

[nfggc10]

I couldn't care less about same sex marriage. I'm against it because it's totally against my beliefs, but if a law was passed that allowed it, it really wouldn't effect my life.As a person who opposes your belief system I definitely respect your point of view here. I just wish it were more widespread. And the last part of your post about it not affecting your life is something that seems to get lost among those that have problems with it.

[Broken Parachute]

As a person who opposes your belief system I definitely respect your point of view here. I just wish it were more widespread. And the last part of your post about it not affecting your life is something that seems to get lost among those that have problems with it.Yeah, I mean I know it's against my religion and I have never agreed with it...but even though I don't agree with it, who am I to stop people from doing it? I don't care about them, I worry about my own life.

[nfggc10]

Yeah, I mean I know it's against my religion and I have never agreed with it...but even though I don't agree with it, who am I to stop people from doing it? I don't care about them, I worry about my own life.Exactly. I'm not against it but I don't really feel anything for the issue. As long as it has no bearing on my life I really don't care. If people that are gay wish to be married then by all means go right ahead. If they want to adopt children then go right on ahead.

[thejetstolehome]

my favorite argument against it is the "slippery slope" argument. according to it, if we allow gays to marry, then people will start marrying their pets. :rolleyes:

[Khaos]

Middle america (red states) is hindering this country and involving way to much religion into politics and press their views on others. Just let people live there lives as long as they are doing no harm to you others or themselves than who cares what they do. It's there life, if they want to marry a person of the same sex let them. If you can marry your guitar then you should be able to marry a same sex partner. People need to get over themselves. Shit if I could I would marry my iMac cuz it's just that amazing lol.

[nfggc10]

my favorite argument against it is the "slippery slope" argument. according to it, if we allow gays to marry, then people will start marrying their pets. :rolleyes:Well I do love my lab very much...

haha

But it's common for people with that point of view to use unrealistic thoughts to back up their arguments because all rational/fact based opinions kill them.

[Khaos]

my favorite argument against it is the "slippery slope" argument. according to it, if we allow gays to marry, then people will start marrying their pets. :rolleyes:

well until pets can speak and agree to marriage this won't be a problem, don't u have to say "I Do"?

[nfggc10]

Middle america (red states) is hindering this country and involving way to much religion into politics and press their views on others. Just let people live there lives as long as they are doing no harm to you others or themselves than who cares what they do. It's there life, if they want to marry a person of the same sex let them. If you can marry your guitar then you should be able to marry a same sex partner. People need to get over themselves. Shit if I could I would marry my iMac cuz it's just that amazing lol.
Agreed.

[Nevuk]

Come one, the animals argument is out of style now. The new one is objects, like a chair or lamp.

[Khaos]

Come one, the animals argument is out of style now. The new one is objects, like a chair or lamp.

i think some dude married his guitar (http://www.gibson.com/allaccessFeatures.aspx?aliaspath=/AllAccess/I%20Knew%20the%20Bride%20When%20She %20Used) last week lol

[nfggc10]

Come one, the animals argument is out of style now. The new one is objects, like a chair or lamp."I love lamp" was so 5 years ago...

[Iamhome]

but by that same token, the government is not allowed to have religion dictate social policy. it doesnt matter if 70% or even 80% of the country is christian, because that means that 20-30% is not and thus should not be bound by laws based in a religion they dont follow. anything else would fly in the face of every principle the country was founded on, including religious tolerance and diversity.

However we are still controlled (for the most part) by majority vote. Therefore the system is working for them. I'm not saying I agree with it - I just notice how they are/were/will be gaining control..

[Yes. And?]

gay marriage should be legal.
/thread

[Yes. And?]

i think some dude married his guitar (http://www.gibson.com/allaccessFeatures.aspx?aliaspath=/AllAccess/I%20Knew%20the%20Bride%20When%20She %20Used) last week lol
legal in the universal life church, not in the state, right?

[Shatter590]

However we are still controlled (for the most part) by majority vote. Therefore the system is working for them. I'm not saying I agree with it - I just notice how they are/were/will be gaining control..

if nobody is responsible to say "wait a second" then we will fall like rome did, and just as hard

[Nevuk]

You mean a gradual decline over several hundred years? I'm cool with that.

[Broken Parachute]

/thread..or not, because people have opinions, ya know?

[thejetstolehome]

..or not, because people have opinions, ya know?

the opinons of Mets fans don't matter.

[Broken Parachute]

the opinons of Mets fans don't matter.You're just mad because I turned down your proposal for a civil union between us.

[music3chick]

my favorite argument against it is the "slippery slope" argument. according to it, if we allow gays to marry, then people will start marrying their pets. :rolleyes:

I liked the segment on the Colbert Report about marrying snakes. Haha
"They can unhinge their jaws"

[thejetstolehome]

You're just mad because I turned down your proposal for a civil union between us.

Matt, like Jimmy, holds grudges.

[Broken Parachute]

Matt, like Jimmy, holds grudges.hahahaha

[Khaos]

legal in the universal life church, not in the state, right?

idk

[Iamhome]

if nobody is responsible to say "wait a second" then we will fall like rome did, and just as hard

Agreed - I watched the debate last night - It was pretty interesting on how much bullshit the politicians could feed us... "I am against descrimination - but I think marriage should be a bond between a male and female... not two people of the same gender"...

[nfggc10]

Agreed - I watched the debate last night - It was pretty interesting on how much bullshit the politicians could feed us... "I am against descrimination - but I think marriage should be a bond between a male and female... not two people of the same gender"...Haha it's never a good sign in a debate where you contradict yourself as blatantly as that. But you gotta love the "I am 100% against _________....but there are some instances where I find it acceptable" point of view.

[errricc]

honestly who gives a shit

[SubrosaSeductiv]

Slippery slope in marraige? Maybe in topics such as abortion. People have options. Animals on the other hand would not be able to confirm that they want to marry a person. Worst argument ever...

[nfggc10]

Slippery slope in marraige? Maybe in topics such as abortion. People have options. Animals on the other hand would not be able to confirm that they want to marry a person. Worst argument ever...
Yeah it's pretty much a way to dodge giving religion the basis for one's view point in a political arena. Therefore, they must use unrealistic scenarios to back that up but in turn makes them look even worse and displays blatant discrimination.

[thejetstolehome]

i honestly don't know why gays haven't really come together to get rid of the whole crazy discrimination issue. if i were a lawyer and had a gay client who was discotent with not being able to be married, i would bring an argument to the state that civil unions create a "separate but equal" notion that we used back in the late 19th and early 20th century.

[SubrosaSeductiv]

Hah yeah I don't really see the problem with same sex marraige. Population control is a plus. I really only see benefits out of it. less competition for girls for me:-D . I guess from an economic stance with them not recieving the same s.s. benefits. But the social security pot is fucked in a few years anyways.

Also this country has become the biggest contradiction in the world. Home of the free? False. Gay people have rights as well.

[nfggc10]

i honestly don't know why gays haven't really come together to get rid of the whole crazy discrimination issue. if i were a lawyer and had a gay client who was discotent with not being able to be married, i would bring an argument to the state that civil unions create a "separate but equal" notion that we used back in the late 19th and early 20th century.Yeah I often wonder that as well. I just hate the argument that "marriage has always been the union between men and women." It's things like this that make other developed countries look at us and wonder what century we're living in because socially we've fallen so far behind it's scary.

[nfggc10]

Hah yeah I don't really see the problem with same sex marraige. Population control is a plus. I really only see benefits out of it. less competition for girls for me:-D . I guess from an economic stance with them not recieving the same s.s. benefits. But the social security pot is fucked in a few years anyways.

Also this country has become the biggest contradiction in the world. Home of the free? False. Gay people have rights as well.

The religious right is so incredibly well organized,

us Secular types really need to get our act together.
Agreed on both accounts. And yeah "home of the free" has become a very laughable phrase. It's really turned into "home of the free, well only to some people anyway"

[Iamhome]

Haha it's never a good sign in a debate where you contradict yourself as blatantly as that. But you gotta love the "I am 100% against _________....but there are some instances where I find it acceptable" point of view.


It was very interesting - I actually like mayor juliani (sp?)... I haven't followed him much - but I like what he was saying last night. I fucking HATE that Texas is represented by the old man that said '911 was brought upon us by our own actions. We've been invading their country for the last 15 years and they are tired of it. What would we do if someone was puting permanent military bases in our country?'... I think now that I'm older I'm going to follow politics much closer.

[nfggc10]

It was very interesting - I actually like mayor juliani (sp?)... I haven't followed him much - but I like what he was saying last night. I fucking HATE that Texas is represented by the old man that said '911 was brought upon us by our own actions. We've been invading their country for the last 15 years and they are tired of it. What would we do if someone was puting permanent military bases in our country?'... I think now that I'm older I'm going to follow politics much closer.Yeah I know I have started following very closely. I used to have very little interest in it but as I've noticed the scary direction that this country is heading towards I've been motivated to get much more knowledgeable in this area. I wish more importance was placed on increasing participation and awareness of what really is going on in our government and society rather than just taking the stance that "we've always been taught to believe we're the best country in the world and i agree." The fact is that we're in deep trouble and need progressive minds that aren't afraid to question the status-quo or religion, corruption, etc.

[Iamhome]

I'm going to see as much coverage of the debate as possible so I can actually make a vote I fully stand behind this time...

[nfggc10]

I'm going to see as much coverage of the debate as possible so I can actually make a vote I fully stand behind this time...Yeah I am as well. I definitely regret my decision last time around and I won't do that again.

[SubrosaSeductiv]

I'm going to see as much coverage of the debate as possible so I can actually make a vote I fully stand behind this time...

its hard man. Media is fucked. And even having a real inside view on politics will still have some sort of sway.

The religious right is so incredibly well organized,

us Secular types really need to get our act together.

Another hard task. Religious people are all held together by one common bond, fear. Free thinking people are relieved of that. You'll notice most people who are religious are socially and psychologically dependent. People lacking in theisms do not require a crutch, therefore they don't feel the need to organize.

[Shatter590]

Agreed on both accounts. And yeah "home of the free" has become a very laughable phrase. It's really turned into "home of the free, well only to some people anyway"

Leave no billionaire behind

[nfggc10]

Another hard task. Religious people are all held together by one common bond, fear. Free thinking people are relieved of that. You'll notice most people who are religious are socially and psychologically dependent. People lacking in theisms do not require a crutch, therefore they don't feel the need to organize.And yet they'll deny the fear argument to the end while at the same time stating that it's something only ignorant non-believers would say. There's no difference in people that have that outlook on the world and those in cults that use the same logic.

I have faith (no pun intended) that reason will win out in the long run.I do as well but unfortunately we're not even close. It's just shame that such a large group of people are raised thinking it's wrong to question. It's easier for them to create falsehoods in order to justify their beliefs. It just speaks volumes for how weak minded such a large part of society really is.

[a speedo model]

I believe it should be legal, since it goes against my religious beliefs I could not vote for it but I don't see why my beliefs should be forced on others who deny them.

[a speedo model]

Oh, shit. Sorry for bringing this back on topic...

[nfggc10]

I believe it should be legal, since it goes against my religious beliefs I could not vote for it but I don't see why my beliefs should be forced on others who deny them.Just curious, what's the difference in believing it should be legal versus officially declaring it via your vote?

Oh, shit. Sorry for bringing this back on topic...Haha yeah we kinda took it to a broader issue.

[SubrosaSeductiv]

Oh, shit. Sorry for bringing this back on topic...

Hahah yeah we went a little off topic. But really, for the topic we went to, I don't think you could've replied with a better response.

[theguy77]

limits on same-sex marriage are just an example of the politicians' policy of basing their laws on the bible. we're supposed to have freedom of religion. its only wrong to them because the bible says so. though i am a christian, i believe that the law only has the right to impose punishment on actions that are destructive to others, and anything that is supposedly morally wrong that doesnt really affect anyone else should be punished under God's discretion.

now a new spin on this viewpoint is i actually dont think God would punish such a thing, kind of like you probably won't go to hell for lying. i dont even feel like i have reason enough to believe homosexuality is a sin at all, because i dont believe FULLY in the bible. before others jump on my case, id like to point out that the bible has been changed and altered a lot, especially during medieval times, so the kings could do what they wanted--because religion was the only thing that governed thim. mankind generally spurns homosexuality so it would be no surprise to me if that was something we put in there. also, many real meanings are lost in translation of languages, and also when the bible is rewritten what is interpreted turns from a possible implication to a direct statement, when in truth that direct statement may have been misinterpreted.

[a speedo model]

Just curious, what's the difference in believing it should be legal versus officially declaring it via your vote?

Haha yeah we kinda took it to a broader issue.
I do believe it is none of my business to force my beliefs on others, which is why it should be legal, but I will not....support it since I do believe it is wrong. People can do what they wish they are not held to my religious beliefs, but I cannot vote for something that I believe is wrong.

As I see.

[a speedo model]

Hahah yeah we went a little off topic. But really, for the topic we went to, I don't think you could've replied with a better response.
Hey, anything I can do to help you out.

[nfggc10]

I do believe it is none of my business to force my beliefs on others, which is why it should be legal, but I will not....support it since I do believe it is wrong. People can do what they wish they are not held to my religious beliefs, but I cannot vote for something that I believe is wrong.

As I see.
Well part of your rights is the ability to vote, which is representative of speaking your beliefs to the population whether it's issues of gay marriage, abortion, political office or local initiatives. I just don't see why it would be wrong, if you think it should be legal, to vote for it's legalization. For instance, I do not condone marijuana use but if it's on the ballot I would vote to legalize it because it's my belief that it should be.

[SubrosaSeductiv]

I do believe it is none of my business to force my beliefs on others, which is why it should be legal, but I will not....support it since I do believe it is wrong. People can do what they wish they are not held to my religious beliefs, but I cannot vote for something that I believe is wrong.

As I see.

Hey, anything I can do to help you out.


Why exactly do you believe it is wrong. I don't really think you believe it is wrong, you may have been told it was wrong and through years of it being scolded into your ears you accepted it as such.

What is so wrong about loving someone? Nothing. God promotes that shit. And what is marraige aside from a proclamation of love and devotion? Nothing. Then what is the difference between a man showing that kind of love for another man, or a woman for another woman?

Here's a quote from jesus for you. "Love one another." not "love one another, but only girls to guys and guys to girls." not "Love one another, but not gay love" not "Love one another, only if it doesn't involve butt sex." not "Love one another, but only if it involves a male and a female."

No he simply states "Love one another" and the gays have the religious as well as the social right to do so. They would like to make that proclamation as well. So I say listen to Jesus. Your proclaimed savior and let them "Love one another"

[nfggc10]

Why exactly do you believe it is wrong. I don't really think you believe it is wrong, you may have been told it was wrong and through years of it being scolded into your ears you accepted it as such.

What is so wrong about loving someone? Nothing. God promotes that shit. And what is marraige aside from a proclamation of love and devotion? Nothing. Then what is the difference between a man showing that kind of love for another man, or a woman for another woman?

Here's a quote from jesus for you. "Love one another." not "love one another, but only girls to guys and guys to girls." not "Love one another, but not gay love" not "Love one another, only if it doesn't involve butt sex." not "Love one another, but only if it involves a male and a female."

No he simply states "Love one another" and the gays have the religious as well as the social right to do so. They would like to make that proclamation as well. So I say listen to Jesus. Your proclaimed savior and let them "Love one another"In a less explicit way I'll agree haha.


Side argument: I love how some people argue that people are not born gay thus it is something they chose to be. It's just as easy to argue no one is born straight either and that it forms within someone just as naturally. It just so happens that I became attracted to girls and not guys but it doesn't mean others can't feel the opposite and should be discriminated against. I think saying that sexual orientation being with someone since birth is ridiculous. There's too many phases we go through as babies and early childhood that back this up as well.

[a speedo model]

Well part of your rights is the ability to vote, which is representative of speaking your beliefs to the population whether it's issues of gay marriage, abortion, political office or local initiatives. I just don't see why it would be wrong, if you think it should be legal, to vote for it's legalization. For instance, I do not condone marijuana use but if it's on the ballot I would vote to legalize it because it's my belief that it should be.
I cannot in good conscious vote for something I do not believe in. By voting I am speaking my belief to the people on this issue, that is that I do not support it. I guess I'm different in my look on this in that I will not vote for something I do not believe in.
Why exactly do you believe it is wrong. I don't really think you believe it is wrong, you may have been told it was wrong and through years of it being scolded into your ears you accepted it as such.

What is so wrong about loving someone? Nothing. God promotes that shit. And what is marraige aside from a proclamation of love and devotion? Nothing. Then what is the difference between a man showing that kind of love for another man, or a woman for another woman?

Here's a quote from jesus for you. "Love one another." not "love one another, but only girls to guys and guys to girls." not "Love one another, but not gay love" not "Love one another, only if it doesn't involve butt sex." not "Love one another, but only if it involves a male and a female."

No he simply states "Love one another" and the gays have the religious as well as the social right to do so. They would like to make that proclamation as well. So I say listen to Jesus. Your proclaimed savior and let them "Love one another"
In those quotes from Jesus is he speaking of sexual relationships or general ones? Those are not in context and are not relevant to this discussion in how you are using them. I agree based on someone's beliefs we are not to look down on them and hate them. I do have several gay friends and I do love them. I do not look down on them, many people I know do things I disagree with not merely the homosexual.

And the Bible does state that it is wrong.

[theguy77]

I cannot in good conscious vote for something I do not believe in. By voting I am speaking my belief to the people on this issue, that is that I do not support it. I guess I'm different in my look on this in that I will not vote for something I do not believe in.

In those quotes from Jesus is he speaking of sexual relationships or general ones? Those are not in context and are not relevant to this discussion in how you are using them. I agree based on someone's beliefs we are not to look down on them and hate them. I do have several gay friends and I do love them. I do not look down on them, many people I know do things I disagree with not merely the homosexual.

And the Bible does state that it is wrong.

well im not trying to change your views if you dont want to change them but just to see other people's opinion it'd be nice if you could read my above post. :)

[nfggc10]

well im not trying to change your views if you dont want to change them but just to see other people's opinion it'd be nice if you could read my above post. :)Yeah pretty good post above. Just a comment on the bible issue: The opinions/beliefs stated in the bible have no more/less importance than those of individuals that oppose them. Again, as many times as it's been altered, judging an originally clouded view point with more of them doesn't help it's credibility to those who don't believe or follow it.

[a speedo model]

limits on same-sex marriage are just an example of the politicians' policy of basing their laws on the bible. we're supposed to have freedom of religion. its only wrong to them because the bible says so. though i am a christian, i believe that the law only has the right to impose punishment on actions that are destructive to others, and anything that is supposedly morally wrong that doesnt really affect anyone else should be punished under God's discretion.

now a new spin on this viewpoint is i actually dont think God would punish such a thing, kind of like you probably won't go to hell for lying. i dont even feel like i have reason enough to believe homosexuality is a sin at all, because i dont believe FULLY in the bible. before others jump on my case, id like to point out that the bible has been changed and altered a lot, especially during medieval times, so the kings could do what they wanted--because religion was the only thing that governed thim. mankind generally spurns homosexuality so it would be no surprise to me if that was something we put in there. also, many real meanings are lost in translation of languages, and also when the bible is rewritten what is interpreted turns from a possible implication to a direct statement, when in truth that direct statement may have been misinterpreted.
I agree with this first part.

I agree to an extent with some of your reasoning. I agree that all sins are equal and none are a one way ticket to hell, as in all homosexuals go to hell and all liars go to hell.

[a speedo model]

The Bible says a lot of things are wrong. Such as working on a sunday, but you catch people banning that now do you.
Do you mean "but you DON'T catch people banning that now do you"? If so, then I agree with the sentiment of your statement.

[pilot_light_out]

a speedo model you are a fucking asshole. i wont get anywhere by saying that, i know, it doesnt pertain to the thread, i know, its out of context, i know

but seriously. FUCK YOU. wake up and smell humanity. get your head out of the fucking religion, and just fucking look around. we're all human, and it does not fucking matter about who we fuck or why. homosexuality is a natural part of the human condition, not a fucking sin.

i dont know why people are still so fucking blind.

[Love As Arson]

i honestly don't know why gays haven't really come together to get rid of the whole crazy discrimination issue.
The homosexual rights movement has embraced electoralism. I recall going to a protest for gay marriage, and the general message was that one must vote for democrats in order to gain anything.

[SubrosaSeductiv]

I cannot in good conscious vote for something I do not believe in. By voting I am speaking my belief to the people on this issue, that is that I do not support it. I guess I'm different in my look on this in that I will not vote for something I do not believe in.

1. In those quotes from Jesus is he speaking of sexual relationships or general ones? Those are 2. not in context and are not relevant to this discussion in how you are using them. 3. I agree based on someone's beliefs we are not to look down on them and hate them. 4. I do have several gay friends and I do love them. I do not look down on them, many people I know do things I disagree with not merely the homosexual.

5. And the Bible does state that it is wrong.

1. So are you against gay sex or gay marraige?

2. How are those not relevant? It clearly portrays Jesus stating that he wants us to love one another. It doesn't matter whether its a sexual or general relationship. Jesus wants us to love one another, and gay people can love as well. This ties into marraige because of what marraige stands for. Which is a declaration of love and devotion.

3. Looking down on someone implies that you have to be of an elevated position to do so. Elevated positions include those of higher states and higher privileges. Do you have the right to marry? Yes. Do gays have the right to marry? No. Do you think you should have the right to marry? Yes. Do you think gays should have the right to marry? No. Therefore "I agree based on someone's beliefs we are not to look down on them" thats bullshit.

4. Hahah you're gay...
kidding

5. The bible also states that I can and should own slaves. I tried to buy some mexicans but my parents told me not to. My morality teacher also told me that I am a horrible person for attempting to do so. Why can't I buy people? The bible said I can.

-Because its wrong to own people. The bible states things that are wrong. And the bible states things that are right. All I was trying to say is that religion should not be the basis for social issues.

[Love As Arson]

I think it is worth noting that Christ never suggested that Christians must institute his word as law. His was a spiritual message regarding one's own behaviour and sharing the philosophy, but never forcing it upon another, as it interferes with the foundation of the church. Of course, this all changed when the church became fused with the Roman state.

[thejetstolehome]

The homosexual rights movement has embraced electoralism. I recall going to a protest for gay marriage, and the general message was that one must vote for democrats in order to gain anything.

that might work if Democrats actually supported gay marriage--or at least said they did.

[Love As Arson]

that might work if Democrats actually supported gay marriage--or at least said they did.
Exactly. The movement would be better off working outside of the two-party framework.

[CountMeOut923]

i fully agree that same-sex marriage should be legal. We've made so much progress as a country but yet so many people are still so conservative. Everyone needs to just have an open mind to things.

[a speedo model]

a speedo model you are a fucking asshole. i wont get anywhere by saying that, i know, it doesnt pertain to the thread, i know, its out of context, i know

but seriously. FUCK YOU. wake up and smell humanity. get your head out of the fucking religion, and just fucking look around. we're all human, and it does not fucking matter about who we fuck or why. homosexuality is a natural part of the human condition, not a fucking sin.

i dont know why people are still so fucking blind.
Thank you.

One could say that the human condition is naturally sinful. But I refuse to argue if you won't add something meaningful and/or well-thought out.
I cannot in good conscious vote for something I do not believe in. By voting I am speaking my belief to the people on this issue, that is that I do not support it. I guess I'm different in my look on this in that I will not vote for something I do not believe in.

1. In those quotes from Jesus is he speaking of sexual relationships or general ones? Those are 2. not in context and are not relevant to this discussion in how you are using them. 3. I agree based on someone's beliefs we are not to look down on them and hate them. 4. I do have several gay friends and I do love them. I do not look down on them, many people I know do things I disagree with not merely the homosexual.

5. And the Bible does state that it is wrong.

1. So are you against gay sex or gay marraige?

2. How are those not relevant? It clearly portrays Jesus stating that he wants us to love one another. It doesn't matter whether its a sexual or general relationship. Jesus wants us to love one another, and gay people can love as well. This ties into marraige because of what marraige stands for. Which is a declaration of love and devotion.

3. Looking down on someone implies that you have to be of an elevated position to do so. Elevated positions include those of higher states and higher privileges. Do you have the right to marry? Yes. Do gays have the right to marry? No. Do you think you should have the right to marry? Yes. Do you think gays should have the right to marry? No. Therefore "I agree based on someone's beliefs we are not to look down on them" thats bullshit.

4. Hahah you're gay...
kidding

5. The bible also states that I can and should own slaves. I tried to buy some mexicans but my parents told me not to. My morality teacher also told me that I am a horrible person for attempting to do so. Why can't I buy people? The bible said I can.

-Because its wrong to own people. The bible states things that are wrong. And the bible states things that are right. All I was trying to say is that religion should not be the basis for social issues.
1. Both.

2. Yes, but the type of usage of the word "love" is being taken out of context. He is not saying we should all love one another in the orgy sense, but in the same sense of love your neighbor. When he says that we are to love our neighbor what is he referring to? It is meant in the sense of when I say I love my mother, a sense of respect I guess. There is nothing in that quote that is tied to a physical, sexual relationship.

3. You must not have read what I said. I said I believe gays should be allowed to get married, I merely said that by disagreeing with it I could not support it. I have no problem with them being allowed to marry, but I will not vote for something that is against a belief of mine.

4. Hahahaha

5. I'm unsure what you're referring to seeing as I've read the Bible 3 times the whole way through and remember nothing of that. Must've been in the book of Maccabee.

[thejetstolehome]

Exactly. The movement would be better off working outside of the two-party framework.

it's sad, really. i wish at least some Democrats would come out and say "yes, i support gay marriage." this matter isn't being treated as it should be--a civil rights issue.

[Love As Arson]

it's sad, really. i wish at least some Democrats would come out and say "yes, i support gay marriage." this matter isn't being treated as it should be--a civil rights issue.
Do you recall when General Patraeus said homosexuality was immoral? The democrats were silent about the comment until the gay activists pressured them. As has been said before, they're a essentially right-wing party. We need genuine leftists in America.

Also, Luncheonthesky illustrates why it is necessary to understand the bible in context regarding such issues.

[nfggc10]

Can you really put slavery in context? Yet think the same book contains the ultimate truths of the universe and that it is a good guide for how to live ones life.Apparently haha

[thejetstolehome]

Do you recall when General Patraeus said homosexuality was immoral? The democrats were silent about the comment until the gay activists pressured them. As has been said before, they're a essentially right-wing party. We need genuine leftists in America.

Also, Luncheonthesky illustrates why it is necessary to understand the bible in context regarding such issues.

yes, sir. also, HeyCoffeeEyes made a great point in a different thread about how gays are feminized and "hyper-masculinized" at the same time in terms of being denied entry to the military.

[Love As Arson]

Can you really put slavery in context?
It is important to understand ideas within the context of their time period.

Yet think the same book contains the ultimate truths of the universe and that it is a good guide for how to live ones life.
One can do so if they recognise it is a flawed document.

[Love As Arson]

How could the work of God be anything other than timeless, how could a just God condone slavery. I know that many people think God didnt write the Bible and his influence ranges depending who you ask but slavery? That is just not accetable and no just God would want anything to do with it.
Levitical law was cultural law, which was never meant to be made permanent; that is, it corresponded to the condition of the Israelites at that particular moment in time. The author's views in the New Testament were also informed by their historical circumstances. As to your argument regarding what is just, it would not apply to slavery in ancient times, because it was not a moral issue. The people viewed it as we view taking the bus. That does not provide it with a justification, but it does explain why the biblical authors wrote in the way that they did about the topic.

[Love As Arson]

The alternative is to approach a document anachronistically.

[SubrosaSeductiv]

1. Levitical law was cultural law, which was never meant to be made permanent; that is, it corresponded to the condition of the Israelites at that particular moment in time. The author's views in the New Testament were also informed by their historical circumstances. 2.As to your argument regarding what is just, it would not apply to slavery in ancient times, because it was not a moral issue. The people viewed it as we view taking the bus. That does not provide it with a justification, but it does explain why the biblical authors wrote in the way that they did about the topic.


I go to a catholic high school. I've read the bible more times than I can count. I've taken 6 christian theology classes and two christian morality classes. I'm an active member in our christian moral debate club. And all I can tell you sir, is that statement screams fabrication.

1. Leviticus is the word of God. God's word is permanent and infallible. The bible is said to be inspired by God and written by the "breath of God". In other words: Gods told the suckers writing it what to write.

2. Society's morals change with time. Do God's?

[concernedparent]

I would like to get married so it should be legal, im not going to never get married because some people dont like it, everyone should have the right to be married, We arent bothering anyone, so why does anyone care if we get married, almost all of the ones against it dont know us, so who are they to say i cant get married? I dont know them.
If you want to be respected, don't write in oversized or colored font. Just a tip for you.

[SubrosaSeductiv]

LMAO^^^

Way to fufill every gay steroetype ever.

But its cool man whatever floats his boat.

[concernedparent]

This thread belongs in the personal life forum.


Yes this has more than one meaning.

[SubrosaSeductiv]

Plenty of none gay people write it that stupid font until we tell them not to and the only other two kids of here who i know are gay type normally.

I understand that. Just a few posts back someone wrote that gays are constantly stereotyped as feminine. And well that font is extremely feminine.

[nfggc10]

Just curious, has anyone ever discussed this with anyone who was against its legalization whose views weren't based on their religious beliefs?

[thejetstolehome]

nope.

[nfggc10]

Yeah i think i have.

It was just purely based on them being an anti gay moron although in truth they were semi joking.
Yeah that's the only type of person I've encountered that wasn't using faith as their foundation. I just find it weird that no one opposing its legalization can come up with valid reasons that are bound by realistic thoughts/actions/consequences.

[nfggc10]

There really is no basis for excluding them any more than there is for people of different races, religions or classes.Not only legalization of marriage but the fact that homosexuals aren't a protected class is also ridiculous. Whether people believe it or not being gay is not something you choose to do and I don't understand why that's not an accepted truth.

[tambam]

Just curious, has anyone ever discussed this with anyone who was against its legalization whose views weren't based on their religious beliefs?

Nope, it was all based on religion. Sadly, that's the only reason a lot of people have.

[nfggc10]

Nope, it was all based on religion. Sadly, that's the only reason a lot of people have.I just find it ironic how something such as religion, which is learned and acquired, is protected yet something that forms naturally within someone isn't.

[Nevuk]

I did hear one non-christian explanation, once. That money shouldn't be given to two people who weren't going to have children and make the country. Of course, with in vitro, adoption, surrogate mothers, etc., this is a really bad reason.

[nfggc10]

I did hear one non-christian explanation, once. That money shouldn't be given to two people who weren't going to have children and make the country. Of course, with in vitro, adoption, surrogate mothers, etc., this is a really bad reason.Haha yeah that's exactly what I was thinking when I read the middle sentence. So that voids yet another argument against the legalization.

[Nevuk]

Not necessarily, as not every gay couple has the desire to have children, I'm sure. However, in order for that to be valid, benefits would need to be taken from infertile couples as well.

[thejetstolehome]

Not necessarily, as not every gay couple has the desire to have children, I'm sure. However, in order for that to be valid, benefits would need to be taken from infertile couples as well.

or married couples who don't want to have kids.

[nacho libre]

Hmm, odd, I always thought the western form of marriage came from a religious binding of two people, how weird that gay marriage should be challenged on the grounds of religion.

I mean seriously, how ridiculously absurd.

[nfggc10]

Hmm, odd, I always thought the western form of marriage came from a religious binding of two people, how weird that gay marriage should be challenged on the grounds of religion.

I mean seriously, how ridiculously absurd.But that doesn't mean it hasn't evolved into something different which it has. There's also a difference between civil marriage and religious marriage. So in today's society, the institution of marriage is not necessarily a foundation based upon a religious union.

[nacho libre]

All Im saying is that I would think a religious argument to it would be the most viable since it's beginnings seem to be in religion. Civil Unions are legal in america aren't they?

[Shatter590]

All Im saying is that I would think a religious argument to it would be the most viable since it's beginnings seem to be in religion. Civil Unions are legal in america aren't they?

nope, not yet at least. only in a few places so far

[nacho libre]

I wouldnt be surprised if it is soon... Anyway, what Im getting at is why is it so important for homosexuals to be recognised as "married" when marriage is essentially a construct of the church to indicate a lasting union, perhaps this debate should be about same sex civil unions?

[Shatter590]

I wouldnt be surprised if it is soon... Anyway, what Im getting at is why is it so important for homosexuals to be recognised as "married" when marriage is essentially a construct of the church to indicate a lasting union, perhaps this debate should be about same sex civil unions?

actually, marriage is a legal, binding contract. the ceremony might be religious, but its still a legal construct in this day and age. thats why a homosexual couple can get married in a church by a minister, but it doesnt mean anything

[nfggc10]

I wouldnt be surprised if it is soon... Anyway, what Im getting at is why is it so important for homosexuals to be recognised as "married" when marriage is essentially a construct of the church to indicate a lasting union, perhaps this debate should be about same sex civil unions?Well it's more of a legal union now so that's why the religious argument against legalization isn't valid.

[Shatter590]

Well it's more of a legal union now so that's why the religious argument against legalization isn't valid.

yeah, like i said, the religious overtones arent what make marriage binding, its the license.

[nacho libre]

Im not talking about the legality Im talking about the personal significance of Marraige vs. Civil Union to a gay couple, providing ofcourse that they recieve the same benefits for both.

[nfggc10]

yeah, like i said, the religious overtones arent what make marriage binding, its the license.Exactly. Thus the legalization of gay marriage has nothing to do with one's religious beliefs at all yet people still choose to ignore that.

[Shatter590]

Im not talking about the legality Im talking about the personal significance of Marraige vs. Civil Union to a gay couple, providing ofcourse that they recieve the same benefits for both.

well, thats the other thing: civil unions dont equate the same rights as full marriage.

the reason ppl hang on to this is because of the connotation of marriage and what it entails. remove that emotional connection, and nobody would care.

[nfggc10]

Im not talking about the legality Im talking about the personal significance of Marraige vs. Civil Union to a gay couple, providing ofcourse that they recieve the same benefits for both.
Well originally you were wondering why people think it's wrong to backup one's opinion that gay marriage shouldn't be legalized upon their religious beliefs. The issue of gay marriage that we're discussing is strictly that of a legal recognition of marriage and the union of homosexuals as a part of that definition.

[nacho libre]

well, thats the other thing: civil unions dont equate the same rights as full marriage.

Really, Im pretty sure that here it is close to, if not the exact same, recognition by the state.

the reason ppl hang on to this is because of the connotation of marriage and what it entails. remove that emotional connection, and nobody would care.
That was part of my original premise for challenging gay marriage on the basis of religion, the emotional connection comes alot from (I believe) the social aspect which has evolved from the religious theme. But yeah, it is an old argument which is getting less and less relevant in a western setting.

[Shatter590]

Really, Im pretty sure that here it is close to, if not the exact same, recognition by the state.


That was part of my original premise for challenging gay marriage on the basis of religion, the emotional connection comes alot from (I believe) the social aspect which has evolved from the religious theme. But yeah, it is an old argument which is getting less and less relevant in a western setting.

civil unions are close, but not the same, the reason gays wish to marry is also because of the connotation: its marriage.

and yeah, within recorded history much of marriage is religious. but the base concept is part of monogamous mating, which isnt religious at all.

[nacho libre]

and yeah, within recorded history much of marriage is religious. but the base concept is part of monogamous mating, which isnt religious at all.

The base concept has changed alot then, if you think back to some of the Jewish leaders in the bible... haha.

civil unions are close, but not the same, the reason gays wish to marry is also because of the connotation: its marriage.

I know that the connotation has significant meaning personally to the people involved but I dont see how time should be put into legislation unless there is an actual difference in how they are treated.

How do civil unions differ in america?

[Shatter590]

The base concept has changed alot then, if you think back to some of the Jewish leaders in the bible... haha.


I know that the connotation has significant meaning personally to the people involved but I dont see how time should be put into legislation unless there is an actual difference in how they are treated.

How do civil unions differ in america?

the base concept hasnt changed, just our interpretation of it.

id need to look it up, which i have no desire to right now lol. im sure you can wiki it or something. im working on a massive paper

[nacho libre]

Whats your paper on?

There were alot of bigomists back when it was socially acceptable... Although I suppose the women are committed to a monogamous relationship.

[Shatter590]

monogamy is an interesting thing.

did you know that out of all primates, only humans and gibbons are monogamous? and with gibbons, they have extra pair copulation, so while the pair is mated for life, they actually can go out and fuck whoever they want and the mate doesnt even care!

the paper is on viking religion. its around...30 pages.

[nacho libre]

Sounds interesting atleast, Ive just finished a 3000 word textual analysis of a passage from one of the most boring books of all time.

A Fringe of Leaves by Patrick White - DO NOT READ

[Shatter590]

Sounds interesting atleast, Ive just finished a 3000 word textual analysis of a passage from one of the most boring books of all time.

A Fringe of Leaves by Patrick White - DO NOT READ

lol

i had to read a bunch of viking sagas totaling about...900 pages. thank god its a fast read.

[Love As Arson]

1. Leviticus is the word of God. God's word is permanent and infallible.
The law served a cultural purpose, and was fulfilled by Christ, therefore eliminating the necessity to follow it. Pauls speaks about this:

Galatians 3:23-25

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.


The bible is said to be inspired by God and written by the "breath of God". In other words: Gods told the suckers writing it what to write.
The bible never claims inerrancy. Moreover, one must discern the divine dictation from divine inspiration. The people who wrote the Bible, that is, the authors, the editors, the scribes were inspired by events of historical revelation and were guided by the Holy Spirit. However, this does not create a text that is factually accurate, rather, the bible is infallible with regard to its intended subject.


2. Society's morals change with time. Do God's?
No, but, as I said, the author's were influenced by their historicla period.

That would how the Bible suggests it should be.
I would disagree with regard to the cultural laws the text puts forth.

[Khaos]

If marriage is all about religion then how do atheist get married? And marriage isn't just Christian, you can get married by a justice of the peace which has no religious affiliation.

[nacho libre]

If marriage is all about religion then how do atheist get married? And marriage isn't just Christian, you can get married by a justice of the peace which has no religious affiliation.

Marriage evolved from a religious background...

[nacho libre]

i had to read a bunch of viking sagas totaling about...900 pages. thank god its a fast read.
This book was about 400 pages but I swear it took me more then an a week to force myself to sit through more then a couple of pages in one sitting.

Anything particularly significant in viking religion?

[Love As Arson]

Marriage evolved from a religious background...
The institution of marriage had little to do with religion in its inception. It was simply an economic contract, which preserved private property within the family.

[nacho libre]

The institution of marriage had little to do with religion in its inception. It was simply an economic contract, which preserved private property within the family.

Oh really, what culture first instituted marriage?

[Shatter590]

This book was about 400 pages but I swear it took me more then an a week to force myself to sit through more then a couple of pages in one sitting.

Anything particularly significant in viking religion?

plenty of things. but im doing an overview. i could have done a few just on the conversion angle.

[Love As Arson]

Oh really, what culture first instituted marriage?
It arose in many ancient societies.

[open mind]

people should be able to marry who they want, any religous arguments should be ignored simply because we have seperation of church and state in america (at least we should).

[Jason Tate]

Marriage evolved from a religious background...
No it didn't.

[Jason Tate]

Oh really, what culture first instituted marriage?
This book will enlighten you (http://www.amazon.com/History-Marriage-Edward-Alexander-Westermarck/dp/1402185480/ref=sr_1_1/002-2083961-0072050?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179444634&sr=8-1).

But almost every culture/society has had some form of marriage.

[Nevuk]

I've always wondered .... is monogamy natural or a societal institution? Its so rare in the wild that it would seem to be a societal institution, but almost every society has upheld monogamy.

[nacho libre]

How does it feel to be wrong almost all the time?


I wouldnt know, Im only blinded on subjects that relate to religiousity :-p

And sorry, American Marriage may not have come from what was a religious background at its inception but since St. Paul compared the relationship of a husband and wife to that of Christ and his church (Eph. v, 23-32) there has been a religious element to what developed into Americas form of marriage.

Also, in the 1500's the council of trent instituted a policy that a priest must be present at a marriage aswell as two witness'. This carried over to America and so I think its important to note that alot of the form of an American marriage does come from a religious background.

"By many uncivilized races, and by most civilized ones, the marriage ceremony (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03538b.htm) is regarded as a religious rite (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13064b.htm) or includes religious features, although the religious (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12738a.htm) element is not always regarded as necessary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10733a.htm) to the validity of the union. Under the Christian dispensation (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm) marriage is a religious act of the very highest kind, namely, one of the seven sacraments (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm)."

There is definitely a religious element in the background of American marriage - then again maybe Im always wrong eh.


As to monogamy

This is something I found

"The researches of several recent writers, notably those of Starcke and Westermarck, confirming in part and further developing the earlier conclusions of Darwin and Spencer, have established a probability that marriage or pairing between one man and one woman (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm), though the union be often transitory and the rule frequently violated, is the typical form of sexual union from the infancy of the human race (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm)"

Although I read somewhere that there were communities which practiced line marriage and group marriage aswell as monogamous marriage's.

[SubrosaSeductiv]

This book will enlighten you (http://www.amazon.com/History-Marriage-Edward-Alexander-Westermarck/dp/1402185480/ref=sr_1_1/002-2083961-0072050?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179444634&sr=8-1).

But almost every culture/society has had some form of marriage.


Dude, you read... alot.

I thought I did. But clearly I'm pretty far behind.

[Jason Tate]

Dude, you read... alot.

I thought I did. But clearly I'm pretty far behind.
I read too much according to my girlfriend.

:shrug:

By comparison - my grandfather has read 60 books (updated me during our mother's day brunch) since the beginning of the year. So, I guess it's genetic -and I have nothing on him.

[tambam]

I just find it ironic how something such as religion, which is learned and acquired, is protected yet something that forms naturally within someone isn't.

Very good point. Never thought of it like that, but it's true.

[nfggc10]

Very good point. Never thought of it like that, but it's true.Yep and I haven't under good authority that anyone that tries to argue they were born with any religious beliefs can officially be written off as being completely brainwashed.

[tubasam]

I like the saying "Don't like gay marriage? Then don't get one and shut the fuck up" :P

[nfggc10]

I like the saying "Don't like gay marriage? Then don't get one and shut the fuck up" :PHaha never heard that one actually.

[thejetstolehome]

lL4L4Uv5rf0

[nfggc10]

Hahahahahaha. I haven't watched that episode in a few weeks. Gonna have to pull it up this weekend at some point.

[Mercy Medical]

Did anyone in here say they were against gay marriage?

I want to know so I can find their post and flame them....

[Mercy Medical]

Yeah, I mean I know it's against my religion and I have never agreed with it...but even though I don't agree with it, who am I to stop people from doing it? I don't care about them, I worry about my own life.
Why do you believe it's wrong other then the fact that your religion is telling you so?

I don't believe in people using the argument "I believe same sex marriage is wrong because it's against my religion." Well why is it against your religion? Elaborate more or else it sounds like you're being spoon fed everything you've been told...

[SubrosaSeductiv]

The law served a cultural purpose, and was fulfilled by Christ, therefore eliminating the necessity to follow it. Pauls speaks about this:

Galatians 3:23-25




The bible never claims inerrancy. Moreover, one must discern the divine dictation from divine inspiration. The people who wrote the Bible, that is, the authors, the editors, the scribes were inspired by events of historical revelation and were guided by the Holy Spirit. However, this does not create a text that is factually accurate, rather, the bible is infallible with regard to its intended subject.


No, but, as I said, the author's were influenced by their historicla period.


I would disagree with regard to the cultural laws the text puts forth.

That really depends on what religious view you take on the bible. In a christian's sense yes that could be true. But even in doing so that creates a Paradox of Infallibility. Infallibility within a God is permanent, two infallible sources disagreeing is an impossible. And yes the Bible is claimed to be the work of God. The God portrayed in the Bible is known to be with without error. As an outsider looking in on the faith yes I agree with you that people's opinions change. I was simply pointing out a flaw in faiths derivitive of biblical ideals.

nfggc10Hahahahahaha. I haven't watched that episode in a few weeks. Gonna have to pull it up this weekend at some point.

what episode of what show?

[nfggc10]

Why do you believe it's wrong other then the fact that your religion is telling you so?

I don't believe in people using the argument "I believe same sex marriage is wrong because it's against my religion." Well why is it against your religion? Elaborate more or else it sounds like you're being spoon fed everything you've been told...I agree Kara and those two things I bolded go hand in hand. Using any religion as your reasoning against any legal matter violates one of the basic principles this country was founded upon. I just find it very weird that people can find a difference in the origins of one's sexual orientation. It is something that's born through one's emotional development and to say one result of that is acceptable and the other is not is ridiculous. Also, saying that it's "always been the union between a man and woman" just further proves the point of how long this discrimination has been occurring and how hypocritical our past leaders have been.

what episode of what show?the musical episode from this season of Scrubs.

[Mercy Medical]

I agree Kara and those two things I bolded go hand in hand. Using any religion as your reasoning against any legal matter violates one of the basic principles this country was founded upon. I just find it very weird that people can find a difference in the origins of one's sexual orientation. It is something that's born through one's emotional development and to say one result of that is acceptable and the other is not is ridiculous. Also, saying that it's "always been the union between a man and woman" just further proves the point of how long this discrimination has been occurring and how hypocritical our past leaders have been.

the musical episode from this season of Scrubs.
Here's the thing with my stance on this issue and my stance with religion in general...

I am a Christian, I have been since I was 5. I am also gay and have known so with confidence since last November. I hate when people take the stance of "I believe ____________ is wrong becuase the Bible says so." Well, why does the Bible say so? Why does your religion state that it is wrong? If you're going to use that excuse at least back it up with some knowledge other then "because that's what my religion says." How can you follow and feel strong enough about something to say it's wrong, when you have little to no knowledge of why your faith believes it to be that way. At least have solid information to back up your answers...and don't just sit and quote that one section from scripture where it says how a many shall not lay with another man. Once again, if you're going to feel strong enough to be against something, at least put a little research into it and gain some knowledge on the issue.

I believe what has been stated in the Bible about homosexuality has been horribly misinterpreted by society. Yes, it does state that a man shall not lay down with another man, but I believe it to be an issue of gender roles and not an issue of sexuality...

Either way, regardless of whether you believe it to be right or wrong, why does it honestly matter when it doesn't affect you personally at all? It doesn't. Yes, people use the whole "well next thing you know it will be okay to have sex with animals!" stance which is completely retarded. Or they use the decline of civilization stance. I highly doubt that's where allowing two people of the same sex to marry will cause.

I just want the same rights as anyone else. I just want to be able to call the woman I'm with my wife one day. I want the same financial and legal benefits as everyone else, is that so much to ask? Honestly, I couldn't care less if you want to call it "marriage" or "civil union", I don't care about the title...I just want the benefit that goes with it.

[nfggc10]

Here's the thing with my stance on this issue and my stance with religion in general...

I am a Christian, I have been since I was 5. I am also gay and have known so with confidence since last November. I hate when people take the stance of "I believe ____________ is wrong becuase the Bible says so." Well, why does the Bible say so? Why does your religion state that it is wrong? If you're going to use that excuse at least back it up with some knowledge other then "because that's what my religion says." How can you follow and feel strong enough about something to say it's wrong, when you have little to no knowledge of why your faith believes it to be that way. At least have solid information to back up your answers...and don't just sit and quote that one section from scripture where it says how a many shall not lay with another man. Once again, if you're going to feel strong enough to be against something, at least put a little research into it and gain some knowledge on the issue.

I believe what has been stated in the Bible about homosexuality has been horribly misinterpreted by society. Yes, it does state that a man shall not lay down with another man, but I believe it to be an issue of gender roles and not an issue of sexuality...

Either way, regardless of whether you believe it to be right or wrong, why does it honestly matter when it doesn't affect you personally at all? It doesn't. Yes, people use the whole "well next thing you know it will be okay to have sex with animals!" stance which is completely retarded. Or they use the decline of civilization stance. I highly doubt that's where allowing two people of the same sex to marry will cause.

I just want the same rights as anyone else. I just want to be able to call the woman I'm with my wife one day. I want the same financial and legal benefits as everyone else, is that so much to ask? Honestly, I couldn't care less if you want to call it "marriage" or "civil union", I don't care about the title...I just want the benefit that goes with it.Those are additional reasons why have problems with people against its legalization. There is no possible way that legalizing gay marriage will harm anyone. I can understand people making the argument against, say, legalizing pot or other drugs because there is the chance that they could drive under the influence and hurt someone but so can alcohol. Also, throwing out ridiculous scenarios such as the marrying of any other species outside of a human being is a waste of time. Hell, if there is that concern than just make marriage only legal for one human to another. And the decline of civilization isn't an issue because evidence shows and most likely will always show that there will be more heterosexuals than homosexuals but technology has already made it possible(as of recently) for women to become impregnated without a male's sperm. The fact is the argument against it has no foundation without religious beliefs and people's pure ignorance to the issue. And coming from someone who is not gay nor has ever had gay friends I can honestly say I've never seen the problem with legalizing it and don't understand why people could not feel that way.

[snowtires]

i don't understand why anyone would be against gay marriage. you're not the one marrying another dude or another chick, shut your fucking mouth

[Mercy Medical]

How exactly has that line been misrepresented by society? You saying that is easilly as big a cop out as those who say their religion is against it.
It is my belief from what I have researched and read that the whole issue over homosexuality isn't a sexuality issue, it's a gender role issue. 99% of what the Bible has to say about homosexuality is in relation to male homosexuality, not female. There are a few lines about women here and there, but I feel even those still support my case.

Back then gender roles was a much bigger issue then it is today. Men and women had very definitive roles in society. This comes into play in regards to homosexuality because when it comes to a male gay relationship, one of the men has to take the role of the women. To me this was more frowned upon then the fact that they were homosexual. It seems like such a double standard to me that the Bible basically has issues more so with men in gay relationships then women. Why else would that be unless it had to do with gender roles?

[snowtires]

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a286/a286_bm.gif

[snowtires]

You are putting the word of God in context, which is quite a slippery slope to go down seen as he is all powerful and well, God.

let's get things straight though: the bible we're reading today, if it truly is the word of god, is the word of god written and interpreted by man (who, being an imperfect and fallible creation, is physically incapable of comprehending the word of god) with almost 2000 years of translations, mistranslations and blatant edits and additions by various scribes and clergy.

it's absolutely unbelievable to me that people still follow the bible word for word. why do you think hell is supposedly a lake of fire and not a lake of sulfuric acid or, i dunno, dudes shooting you constantly? it's because fire was the worst shit that could happen to you 2000 years ago. i mean, gays are evil just like how women are supposed to be subservient to men, right? because that's what the bible says.

the bible is a set of 2000 year old beliefs that are, quite frankly, outdated. some of what it teaches will always be valid (love thy neighbor, etc), but some of what it teaches needs to be written off as the misogynistic bullshit it is. if you want to live in the fucking stone ages, you go right ahead, but humanity has grown a lot in 2000 years, even in the last 100 years, and there's a lot in the bible that is still stuck far off in the past.

[tambam]

let's get things straight though: the bible we're reading today, if it truly is the word of god, is the word of god written and interpreted by man (who, being an imperfect and fallible creation, is physically incapable of comprehending the word of god) with almost 2000 years of translations, mistranslations and blatant edits and additions by various scribes and clergy.

it's absolutely unbelievable to me that people still follow the bible word for word. why do you think hell is supposedly a lake of fire and not a lake of sulfuric acid or, i dunno, dudes shooting you constantly? it's because fire was the worst shit that could happen to you 2000 years ago. i mean, gays are evil just like how women are supposed to be subservient to men, right? because that's what the bible says.

the bible is a set of 2000 year old beliefs that are, quite frankly, outdated. some of what it teaches will always be valid (love thy neighbor, etc), but some of what it teaches needs to be written off as the misogynistic bullshit it is. if you want to live in the fucking stone ages, you go right ahead, but humanity has grown a lot in 2000 years, even in the last 100 years, and there's a lot in the bible that is still stuck far off in the past.

Exactly.

[Khaos]

let's get things straight though: the bible we're reading today, if it truly is the word of god, is the word of god written and interpreted by man (who, being an imperfect and fallible creation, is physically incapable of comprehending the word of god) with almost 2000 years of translations, mistranslations and blatant edits and additions by various scribes and clergy.

it's absolutely unbelievable to me that people still follow the bible word for word. why do you think hell is supposedly a lake of fire and not a lake of sulfuric acid or, i dunno, dudes shooting you constantly? it's because fire was the worst shit that could happen to you 2000 years ago. i mean, gays are evil just like how women are supposed to be subservient to men, right? because that's what the bible says.

the bible is a set of 2000 year old beliefs that are, quite frankly, outdated. some of what it teaches will always be valid (love thy neighbor, etc), but some of what it teaches needs to be written off as the misogynistic bullshit it is. if you want to live in the fucking stone ages, you go right ahead, but humanity has grown a lot in 2000 years, even in the last 100 years, and there's a lot in the bible that is still stuck far off in the past.

i second that, i have been staying that for years

[atticus1492]

Ban gay marriage. Ban straight marriage. Give civil unions all the power marriage used to hold, and give them to anyone who wants one.

[Mercy Medical]

They're are have always been a lot more gay men than women. Whether that is because less women are actually gay or less women realise/are open about their sexuality i wouldn't like to speculate. Also when does the Bible ever talk about women? It is an extremely male dominated book in general and i dont see why this would be any different.
I wouldn't necessarily say that there have always been more gay men than gay women. I think it's easy to say that because of the fact that I feel as though two gay men stand out a little bit more then two gay women. Women have a tendency to be more affectionate towards one another whether it be friends or more then men have ever been. For those reasons I think two gay men would stand out more significantly then gay women giving the impression that there are more gay men.

I think women in general have a tendency to be more open with their sexuality then men ever have. Homophobia is much more rampant among men then it is women.

That doesn't make any sense because in a women-women relationship a women would have to be a men if we suscribe to your genre roles theory. I think you fundamentaly misunderstand the nature of homosexuality and marriage in the 1st through to the 4th century. Marriagefor a served two interlinked purposes, to connect ones family to another and to procreate. It was not about love or any of that other jazz that you may or may not think it is about today. People lived in huge houses which housed thier whole families. So practicalities such as the wife cooking didnt really matter as chances are there were 2 grandmothers, 5 aunties, 4 sisters also in a position to cook and clean. Also it was extremely common for a married man to have homosexual relations with another man, this was not always even frowned in the Greek culture and pre-Christian Roman culture. Simply put relations with men were for fun, relations with women were for procreation. There was nothing like the definate line between sex with men and women as there is today. One was not purely gay or purely heterosexual, there was A LOT of crossover. By no means was this universal but it was extremely common.I realize that a large part of society back in the days of the Bible was about procreation. There weren't as many people on this earth then as there are today so the need for procreation was much more prevalent. They needed to "go forth and multiple" and obviously in the case of a homosexual relationship...that's not really going to work. So that gives another reason for the frowning upon of homosexuality back then. That issue isn't really apparent in today's society seeing how we are probably overpopulated, so in the case against homosexuality...how does that even really apply anymore?

And in regard to gender roles, I'm meaning much more towards the male role in society. Like you said, women weren't really talked about as much in the Bible as men. It almost comes across as us being second class citizens, so not much attention is going to be paid upon towards women in that regard. The men was looked towards as the head of the household. He had to hold a certain demeanor and status and obviously if he were to get down with another gay and play the role of the female in that relationship that wouldn't really be okay. I suppose what I'm saying is the role of the male in society was much higher and more significant back then than that of the female.

I think a lot of what the Bible has to say in regards to homosexuality is outdated and doesn't apply to modern times. I find it funny and amusing that we can throw out certain aspects of the Bible because they aren't applicable to today, but others we still have to have a firm grasp upon just because it's "not normal."

[Mercy Medical]

In my opinion most people dont hate homosexuality because of the Bible, they hate homosexuals and use the Bible to justify it. In Britain homosexuality is very prevelant amongst the working class yet very very few are at all religious, they are just naturally prejudiced for the same reason prejudice exists everywhere. Not everyone however fits this view and there will be many exceptions.I'll agree with you on that point. I think it's difficult for a lot of people to let go of what the Bible has to say about homosexuality just because it isn't in the norm and people have a difficult time adjusting to new things.

I just wish people would open their minds up a little bit more. It is possible to be homosexual and still have a firm belief in God and still be a faithful individual. I feel as though I am proof of that.

[snowtires]

I've never quite understood how the words of an omnipotent God who by default creates everything in perfection can be subject to such a supposed brutalisation.

take a non-biased history course. every bible had to be written by hand before the 1400s, there are plentiful examples where the monks wrote things in the margins of the bible they were translating as comments or questions, that were then added to the next copy that was made and several times verses were added that were not in a previous version of the bible. you're telling me god was cool with that? come on.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

take a non-biased history course. every bible had to be written by hand before the 1400s, there are plentiful examples where the monks wrote things in the margins of the bible they were translating as comments or questions, that were then added to the next copy that was made and several times verses were added that were not in a previous version of the bible. you're telling me god was cool with that? come on.

you're telling me that an all powerful God can't make sure that his message stays pure

just the same that you say "how can an all powerful God allow his word to be mistranslated" and all, i'd say how is it so hard to believe that an all powerful God is not going to be tripped up by the mistakes of his creation. especially if he knew they were coming anyway.

if you don't believe in God then thats another thing. But if God exists, then his eternal purpose certainly wasn't thrown off by a monk writing something in the margins.

[snowtires]

you're telling me that an all powerful God can't make sure that his message stays pure

just the same that you say "how can an all powerful God allow his word to be mistranslated" and all, i'd say how is it so hard to believe that an all powerful God is not going to be tripped up by the mistakes of his creation. especially if he knew they were coming anyway.

if you don't believe in God then thats another thing. But if God exists, then his eternal purpose certainly wasn't thrown off by a monk writing something in the margins.

i believe the bible is the word of man, not the word of god. yet i believe in god. does that help?

[Broken Parachute]

Why do you believe it's wrong other then the fact that your religion is telling you so?

I don't believe in people using the argument "I believe same sex marriage is wrong because it's against my religion." Well why is it against your religion? Elaborate more or else it sounds like you're being spoon fed everything you've been told...I think marriage should be between a man and a woman, but since I'm not gay it doesn't affect me and I won't try to change people's opinions.

Where did you lose me?

[Broken Parachute]

Who says it is between a man and women. There was a time when people claimed marriage was between men and women of the same race. What makes your distinction any more valid than theirs?Do you know what an opinion is? Apparently not.

I think marriage should be between a man and a woman, but since I'm not gay it doesn't affect me and I won't try to change people's opinions.

Where did you lose me?

Notice the "I think" in there, to point out that it's merely an opinion.

I don't care what you think. I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe and that's good enough for me.

[Jason Tate]

When opinions become guises for discrimination - I think it's safe to say the opinion is wrong. Just as someone holding the "opinion" that they should be able to own slaves, beat their wives, and so forth is viewed as "wrong."

[Broken Parachute]

When opinions become guises for discrimination - I think it's safe to say the opinion is wrong. Just as someone holding the "opinion" that they should be able to own slaves, beat their wives, and so forth is viewed as "wrong."Are you serious? Did you read my first post in this thread where I said that even though I think it's wrong, I don't care what the law is on gay marriages? It doesn't affect me, so if they want to make it legal I don't mind.

[Jason Tate]

Are you serious? Did you read my first post in this thread where I said that even though I think it's wrong, I don't care what the law is on gay marriages? It doesn't affect me, so if they want to make it legal I don't mind.
I was referring to the line, "I think marriage should be between a man and a woman."

[Broken Parachute]

I was referring to the line, "I think marriage should be between a man and a woman."I know you don't agree with that, and that's fine, but it's just the way I feel.

[Jason Tate]

I know you don't agree with that, and that's fine, but it's just the way I feel.
Hence my post:

When opinions become guises for discrimination - I think it's safe to say the opinion is wrong. Just as someone holding the "opinion" that they should be able to own slaves, beat their wives, and so forth is viewed as "wrong."

Now we're back at square one. Glad I could walk you through it.

[nfggc10]

Hence my post:

When opinions become guises for discrimination - I think it's safe to say the opinion is wrong. Just as someone holding the "opinion" that they should be able to own slaves, beat their wives, and so forth is viewed as "wrong."

Now we're back at square one. Glad I could walk you through it.
Haha, c'mon Jason. Saying "it's just my opinion" is a great way to argue when you have no valid reasons to back up your view...

[Broken Parachute]

Hence my post:

When opinions become guises for discrimination - I think it's safe to say the opinion is wrong. Just as someone holding the "opinion" that they should be able to own slaves, beat their wives, and so forth is viewed as "wrong."

Now we're back at square one. Glad I could walk you through it.Yeah, I'm glad too. Thanks.

[Jason Tate]

Haha, c'mon Jason. Saying "it's just my opinion" is a great way to argue when you have no valid reasons to back up your view...
Worked for what ... 225 years for slavery?

[Lueda Alia]

I think marriage should be between a man and a woman, but since I'm not gay it doesn't affect me and I won't try to change people's opinions.

Where did you lose me?
Can you tell me why you think marriage should be between a man and a woman?

[nfggc10]

Worked for what ... 225 years for slavery?Haha and it works even better on AP for some people as well. I would just like to know specific reasons why people are against it, especially when they state it has no effect on them personally either way.

[Broken Parachute]

Can you tell me why you think marriage should be between a man and a woman?It's how I was raised and it's just hard for me to change something I've believed in my whole life. Blame my parents, if anything. I have at least 5 gay cousins, too..so it's weird. Whatever.

[Jason Tate]

Haha and it works even better on AP for some people as well. I would just like to know specific reasons why people are against it, especially when they state it has no effect on them personally either way.
Working it out in their heads usually leads to one of two conclusions:

1) They really don't know why they old the opinion (passed down from parents?), and therefore I'd argue it should be dismissed.
or
2) They're ok with disenfranchising a group of people and don't like publicly admitting it.

Edit: I totally didn't see his above post before posting this. I win.

[nfggc10]

It's how I was raised and it's just hard for me to change something I've believed in my whole life. Blame my parents, if anything. I have at least 5 gay cousins, too..so it's weird. Whatever.
Just curious, what would you say to them if they asked you, once legally able to do so, to vote for the legalization of it? And do they know your stance on the issue?

[Broken Parachute]

It amuses me that we all know the answer is The Bible but he doesnt want to say it.It amuses me that you're an idiot.

Working it out in their heads usually leads to one of two conclusions:

1) They really don't know why they old the opinion (passed down from parents?), and therefore I'd argue it should be dismissed.
or
2) They're ok with disenfranchising a group of people and don't like publicly admitting it.

Edit: I totally didn't see his above post before posting this. I win.I'm not afraid to admit that my parents had the influence on me.

Just curious, what would you say to them if they asked you, once legally able to do so, to vote for the legalization of it? And do they know your stance on the issue?They can't make me vote against it if I don't want to..I'm only 17 I have a lot of life to live and a lot of decisions to make. My parents are devout Catholics so if I voted for it, I just wouldn't tell them because they'd haunt my dreams forever.

[nfggc10]

It amuses me that we all know the answer is The Bible but he doesnt want to say it.I'd hate to put a number on it but I have to assume that's at least 90% of the foundation for that view on the issue.

Working it out in their heads usually leads to one of two conclusions:

1) They really don't know why they old the opinion (passed down from parents?), and therefore I'd argue it should be dismissed.
or
2) They're ok with disenfranchising a group of people and don't like publicly admitting it.

Edit: I totally didn't see his above post before posting this. I win.
1) Yeah that's just like saying you're going to support whichever political party your parents did just because you "grew up with it." Apparently these parents don't encourage their kids to develop opinions of themselves on such important issues.

2) Yeah that's part of it as well. I just don't see how anyone can discriminate against something that the person has no control over such as race, age, sexual orientation, etc... Those others are among the protected classes and the latter should be as well.

[nfggc10]

They can't make me vote for it if I don't want to..I'm only 17 I have a lot of life to live and a lot of decisions to make. My parents are devout Catholics so if I voted for it, I just wouldn't tell them because they'd haunt my dreams forever.
I didn't say anything about them forcing you to vote for it. I was just wondering if they came to you looking for help in getting them rights they deserve or if you would legally (via voting) say you want to continue the discrimination against them.

[Jason Tate]

I'm not afraid to admit that my parents had the influence on me.

I know - I successfully predicted that response.

I'd hate to put a number on it but I have to assume that's at least 90% of the foundation for that view on the issue.

And those 90% drive me nuts.

1) Yeah that's just like saying you're going to support whichever political party your parents did just because you "grew up with it." Apparently these parents don't encourage their kids to develop opinions of themselves on such important issues.

Sad but true. I remember the first time I had the balls to argue with my dad over homosexuals. I completely changed his way of thinking by the end of the night -- he did a 180 after our discussion. Children can have an impact on parent's opinions of issues too. And they should - if more kids talked to their parents about this shit, maybe we'd be better off.

2) Yeah that's part of it as well. I just don't see how anyone can discriminate against something that the person has no control over such as race, age, sexual orientation, etc... Those others are among the protected classes and the latter should be as well.

Agreed. Basically the fundamentals of the argument right there.

[Broken Parachute]

Hey im not the one who hates 1 in 20 people off the cuff just cause its how he was brought up.hahahahahahahahahahahhaa

Did you read any of my previous posts? Did I not say I had gay family members and that gay marriage laws do not have an effect me, so it doesn't matter what I believe in because it has no bearing on my life?

Way to make a generalization that I "hate 1 in every 20 people off the cuff." Find where I used the word hate.

[nfggc10]

hahahahahahahahahahahhaa

Did you read any of my previous posts? Did I not say I had gay family members and that gay marriage laws do not have an effect me, so it doesn't matter what I believe in because it has no bearing on my life?

Way to make a generalization that I "hate 1 in every 20 people off the cuff." Find where I used the word hate.So you're completely satisfied with the effort to discriminate and deny rights to your cousins? I hope you're not too close because that doesn't say much for how you feel about them.

[Broken Parachute]

You would willingly deny these people a basic human right.

That suggests hate to me.Umm...no I said that since it has no bearing on my life, the legalization of it wouldn't bother me at all.

[Broken Parachute]

So you're completely satisfied with the effort to discriminate and deny rights to your cousins? I hope you're not too close because that doesn't say much for how you feel about them.Three of them are dead and the other has a boyfriend and isn't going to get married to him (he said it himself) because he's perfectly happy, so I'm not really denying them of much.

[nfggc10]

But you wouldnt vote for it. Because you dont believe in giving them that right.Haha someone else pulled that same stunt the other night in this thread. You can't say it doesn't bother you yet at the same time say when asked to vote for it you wouldn't. In a yes or no issue you're either for something or you're against it.

[nfggc10]

Three of them are dead and the other has a boyfriend and isn't going to get married to him (he said it himself) because he's perfectly happy, so I'm not really denying them of much.Well there's always the possibility they will and the fact that they cannot receive legal benefits probably has a big effect on his current decision. Given the benefits that marriage has, he would be wise to do so if it becomes legal. But either way you're saying you're against his lifestyle so it should have some effect on you unless you're completely heartless.

[Broken Parachute]

But you wouldnt vote for it. Because you dont believe in giving them that right.Who is to say that my opinion won't change, though? I mean..I said that I didn't believe in it because I've been told that my whole life. Inside, though, I've always felt bad for gays because I really never believed it was their choice. I'm going to be able to vote next year, so who says that I won't vote for the legalization of it?

I know my opinion is not very solid at all, but I never really payed much attention to politics until recently..so I'm not the best debater.

[nfggc10]

Who is to say that my opinion won't change, though? I mean..I said that I didn't believe in it because I've been told that my whole life. Inside, though, I've always felt bad for gays because I really never believed it was their choice. I'm going to be able to vote next year, so who says that I won't vote for the legalization of it?

I know my opinion is not very solid at all, but I never really payed much attention to politics until recently..so I'm not the best debater.Well like you said you're easily at an age where you can form your own opinions and should have long been questioning "what you've been told your whole life." But since you admit that being gay isn't their choice it doesn't really justify discriminating against them.

[Broken Parachute]

Haha someone else pulled that same stunt the other night in this thread. You can't say it doesn't bother you yet at the same time say when asked to vote for it you wouldn't. In a yes or no issue you're either for something or you're against it.I voted for it before I voted against it.

[Lueda Alia]

It's how I was raised and it's just hard for me to change something I've believed in my whole life. Blame my parents, if anything. I have at least 5 gay cousins, too..so it's weird. Whatever.
That sounds like you're saying that you don't really think so yourself - you're simply believing what you're told.

I figured I wouldn't get a real good reason behind these feelings you have. But if you could answer me, I would really like to know why you personally think marriage is better between a man and a woman.

[Smash Adams]

Who is to say that my opinion won't change, though? I mean..I said that I didn't believe in it because I've been told that my whole life. Inside, though, I've always felt bad for gays because I really never believed it was their choice. I'm going to be able to vote next year, so who says that I won't vote for the legalization of it?

I know my opinion is not very solid at all, but I never really payed much attention to politics until recently..so I'm not the best debater.

I've never got how anyone can think it's a choice, not to be mean but who would choose to be gay?
they have to go through so much extra issues it can't be easy

[Broken Parachute]

That sounds like you're saying that you don't really think so yourself - you're simply believing what you're told.I always have. Politics was always the last thing I ever thought about, until recently.

I've never got how anyone can think it's a choice, not to be mean but who would choose to be gay?
they have to go through so much extra issues it can't be easyI know.

[Lueda Alia]

I always have. Politics was always the last thing I ever thought about, until recently.
Well, it's a good thing that you at least admit this, but I also find it a little sad that you know you haven't formed an opinion and yet take such a stance on certain issues as this. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, but when it's not even really your opinion, why make such decisions at all? I hope you look into things and find out what you really believe in. Find your own truth because you can't live your life based on everyone else's thoughts and feelings.

[tambam]

Well, it's a good thing that you at least admit this, but I also find it a little sad that you know you haven't formed an opinion and yet take such a stance on certain issues as this. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, but when it's not even really your opinion, why make such decisions at all? I hope you look into things and find out what you really believe in. Find your own truth because you can't live your life based on everyone else's thoughts and feelings.

No kidding.

[Make Out Kid]

Who is to say that my opinion won't change, though? I mean..I said that I didn't believe in it because I've been told that my whole life. Inside, though, I've always felt bad for gays because I really never believed it was their choice. I'm going to be able to vote next year, so who says that I won't vote for the legalization of it?

I know my opinion is not very solid at all, but I never really payed much attention to politics until recently..so I'm not the best debater.

At least you realize one of the most astounding beliefs about homosexuals isn't true. I still don't understand how people can think it is a choice.

[tambam]

Who is to say that my opinion won't change, though? I mean..I said that I didn't believe in it because I've been told that my whole life. Inside, though, I've always felt bad for gays because I really never believed it was their choice. I'm going to be able to vote next year, so who says that I won't vote for the legalization of it?

I know my opinion is not very solid at all, but I never really payed much attention to politics until recently..so I'm not the best debater.

I was just wondering; you just said that you never believed it was a choice and that you've always felt sorry for them. Given that, how can you currently hold the opinion that you have now about marriage?

[concernedparent]

There's no valid arguments against gay marriage; in a free society it would be legal.

[Broken Parachute]

At least you realize one of the most astounding beliefs about homosexuals isn't true. I still don't understand how people can think it is a choice.Yeah, I know. I don't either.

I was just wondering; you just said that you never believed it was a choice and that you've always felt sorry for them. Given that, how can you currently hold the opinion that you have now about marriage?Just because I feel bad for the lifestyle and social stereotypes that being gay is associated with doesn't mean I can't oppose gay marriage if I wanted to.

[tambam]

Yeah, I know. I don't either.

Just because I feel bad for the lifestyle and social stereotypes that being gay is associated with doesn't mean I can't oppose gay marriage if I wanted to.

Sure. But if you know they can't help it like you said above, then I don't know why you would oppose it. You can't hold it against them if it isn't their choice.

[CountMeOut923]

i don't understand how anyone could be against marriage. the majority of people who are against it, don't have any valid opinion against it. It always kills me when people say they were taught that way and thats what their parents told them.

[Broken Parachute]

Sure. But if you know they can't help it like you said above, then I don't know why you would oppose it. You can't hold it against them if it isn't their choice.I'm not holding anything against anyone, I said that even though it was against the norm to me previously and not something I felt strongly about, if it were legalized I wouldn't mind. I said the same thing about abortion and every other political concern: I may not agree with it, but who am I to make choices for other people? If it concerns me, I speak out against it..if not, then it doesn't matter to me either way.

[Broken Parachute]

i don't understand how anyone could be against marriage. the majority of people who are against it, don't have any valid opinion against it. It always kills me when people say they were taught that way and thats what their parents told them.Do you want me to lie about it and make up stories? It's the way I was raised, how could I have changed that up until this point?

[concernedparent]

i don't understand how anyone could be against marriage. the majority of people who are against it, don't have any valid opinion against it. It always kills me when people say they were taught that way and thats what their parents told them.
But that reasoning works so well for racism too..

[Broken Parachute]

But that reasoning works so well for racism too..The only good negro is a dead negro.

[CountMeOut923]

Do you want me to lie about it and make up stories? It's the way I was raised, how could I have changed that up until this point?

No, I don't expect you to lie about it and make up stories because that would be just wrong. But, when your parents or whoever was telling you these things, did you ever think to question what they were saying? I understand that these people are obviously close to you and you like to respect their opinion but I believe you should always question what is being told to you. Plus, you are also only 17 which is still young. Your opinions on the issues that are going on in the world are just starting to form I'm assuming.

[CountMeOut923]

But that reasoning works so well for racism too..

very true. i'm just glad i grew up where i did and had a very open mind to things. after i moved out of new york, i met so many people who were so sheltered their whole lives and never experienced talking or "seeing" a gay person.

[Broken Parachute]

No, I don't expect you to lie about it and make up stories because that would be just wrong. But, when your parents or whoever was telling you these things, did you ever think to question what they were saying? I understand that these people are obviously close to you and you like to respect their opinion but I believe you should always question what is being told to you. Plus, you are also only 17 which is still young. Your opinions on the issues that are going on in the world are just starting to form I'm assuming.I just started paying attention to political issues maybe the last year or so. It never interested me at all. All I know is what people have told me..I don't know what are lies and what are truths.

[concernedparent]

very true. i'm just glad i grew up where i did and had a very open mind to things. after i moved out of new york, i met so many people who were so sheltered their whole lives and never experienced talking or "seeing" a gay person.
Word. I can't really go out feeling all superior to everyone else, because I'm sure had my parents been racist or homophobic I would have been too, since that's how the world works.

[CountMeOut923]

I just started paying attention to political issues maybe the last year or so. It never interested me at all. All I know is what people have told me..I don't know what are lies and what are truths.

that's what the good thing is now, your brain is a sponge at this point in your life. the best thing you can do is just try to read as much information as possible. but know that everything you read isn't true either. try to keep an open mind to everything though, probably the best thing you can do for yourself.

[tambam]

I'm not holding anything against anyone, I said that even though it was against the norm to me previously and not something I felt strongly about, if it were legalized I wouldn't mind. I said the same thing about abortion and every other political concern: I may not agree with it, but who am I to make choices for other people? If it concerns me, I speak out against it..if not, then it doesn't matter to me either way.

Sure you're holding it against them. You don't agree with them having a right that everyone else has, even though you admitted that you didn't think they had any control over the way they are. How is not agreeing with them to have this right not holding it against them?

[Broken Parachute]

Sure you're holding it against them. You don't agree with them having a right that everyone else has, even though you admitted that you didn't think they had any control over the way they are. How is that not holding it against them?Why is this so important to you?

[tambam]

Why is this so important to you?

I never said you hated gays, but you do disagree with the idea of them getting married even though you said a few pages back that you know they can't help it. That doesn't really make sense to me.

And this is a politics/debate form, I'm simply trying to see where you're coming from and what your reasoning is because I've seen little reason as to why you feel the way you do other than 'you were raised that way' even though that lacks logic and rationality. And I think this should be important to anyone who lives in a democratic country.

[Broken Parachute]

I never said you hated gays, but you do disagree with the idea of them getting married even though you said a few pages back that you know they can't help it. That doesn't really make sense to me.

And this is a politics/debate form, I'm simply trying to see where you're coming from and what your reasoning is because I've seen little reason as to why you feel the way you do other than 'you were raised that way' even though that lacks logic and rationality. And I think this should be important to anyone who lives in a democratic country.I don't hate gays. I don't like the idea of gay marriage. I won't make it illegal because I disgree with it though, because I have no right to make decisions for a way of life I am not a part of. In short, even though I don't agree with it, I won't vote against it.

That's....really all I've been saying for like 5 pages.

[CountMeOut923]

I don't hate gays. I don't like the idea of gay marriage. I won't make it illegal because I disgree with it though, because I have no right to make decisions for a way of life I am not a part of. In short, even though I don't agree with it, I won't vote against it.

That's....really all I've been saying for like 5 pages.

don't like the idea of gay marriage? does it just make you feel uncomfortable or..?

[Broken Parachute]

don't like the idea of gay marriage? does it just make you feel uncomfortable or..?Growing up knowing only one way of life (heterosexuality, of course), the idea of gays marrying just creeps me out now, I guess. It's not that important to me, though. Gays deserve the same rights as normal citizens do, I know that..but that doesn't mean gay marriage can't creep me out a little. That's what people are missing from what I'm saying.

[concernedparent]

Growing up knowing only one way of life (heterosexuality, of course), the idea of gays marrying just creeps me out now, I guess. It's not that important to me, though. Gays deserve the same rights as normal citizens do, I know that..but that doesn't mean gay marriage can't creep me out a little. That's what people are missing from what I'm saying.
It's ok to be creeped out by it, you can't help what you are, but being creeped out by it is not a valid reason to be against gay marriage. Not that you are. Just throwing it out there.

[tambam]

I don't know what's so creepy about two consenting adults that love each other, but okay.

[Broken Parachute]

It's ok to be creeped out by it, you can't help what you are, but being creeped out by it is not a valid reason to be against gay marriage. Not that you are. Just throwing it out there.I understand that.

I don't know what's so creepy about two consenting adults that love each other, but okay.You obviously have no clue what it is like to be raised Catholic, do you?

[CountMeOut923]

Growing up knowing only one way of life (heterosexuality, of course), the idea of gays marrying just creeps me out now, I guess. It's not that important to me, though. Gays deserve the same rights as normal citizens do, I know that..but that doesn't mean gay marriage can't creep me out a little. That's what people are missing from what I'm saying.

i see. i suppose you're young enough to still feel a little uncomfortable with the idea of same sex marriage. i understand that you are 'creeped out' about it but maybe its because you havent been around it much growing up. not much of it on staten island i suppose?

[Broken Parachute]

i see. i suppose you're young enough to still feel a little uncomfortable with the idea of same sex marriage. i understand that you are 'creeped out' about it but maybe its because you havent been around it much growing up. not much of it on staten island i suppose?Oh no, there is. It's not about Staten Island, I lived in Brooklyn up until I was 12. Since I'm in high school, an all boys high school no less, I've met at least three or four kids who are gays. Plus, I found out when I was like 13 or so that I had at least three gay cousins. There was also a gay guy where I used to work. I never really knew any gay people until I got a little older, so up until now I was pretty much narrow minded about it.

[CountMeOut923]

I understand that.

You obviously have no clue what it is like to be raised Catholic, do you?

i definitely have seen so much of it. i had plenty of friends that were raised roman catholic and it was definitely interesting to see growing up. I'm not sure since I never experienced it but, can't you still be raised roman catholic and respect your parents/religion and still be open to other things as well. i mean i know its kind of conflicting and perhaps confusing, but just saying. How did you start to realize that gays are normal people too and deserve to be treated as normal citizens as well? Just curious because it sounds like you are fresh to this and still going thinking a lot of things through.

[tambam]

I understand that.

You obviously have no clue what it is like to be raised Catholic, do you?

I don't think that should be an excuse, really. I was raised thinking it was a bit weird too, but there are tons of people that were raised one way and live another. Just because you were brought up Catholic doesn't mean you shouldn't have your own opinions on these things. And now that you've just admitted that you really don't think it's their choice and that they should have rights, you're already going against a lot of Catholic beliefs on this issue. I know that I grew out of being creeped out about it long before I was 17. It's not like you've lived in a bubble your whole life. You've seen the world beyond your backyard, I'm sure you've met people of different religions and backgrounds. And so your religion shouldn't be the only influence in your life, nor should your upringing. I know there are lots of things that my mom and I don't agree with, even though she's the one that raised me.

[concernedparent]

I understand that.

You obviously have no clue what it is like to be raised Catholic, do you?
No this is completely new thinking to you. Just admit it.

[CountMeOut923]

Oh no, there is. It's not about Staten Island, I lived in Brooklyn up until I was 12. Since I'm in high school, an all boys high school no less, I've met at least three or four kids who are gays. Plus, I found out when I was like 13 or so that I had at least three gay cousins. There was also a gay guy where I used to work. I never really knew any gay people until I got a little older, so up until now I was pretty much narrow minded about it.

ahh okay, just making sure. yeah well that's good that you are getting more and more exposed to it. a lot of people have felt the way you have because they had no exposure to it which is natural. Hopefully as you experience it more you'll become more open minded

[Broken Parachute]

i definitely have seen so much of it. i had plenty of friends that were raised roman catholic and it was definitely interesting to see growing up. I'm not sure since I never experienced it but, can't you still be raised roman catholic and respect your parents/religion and still be open to other things as well. i mean i know its kind of conflicting and perhaps confusing, but just saying. How did you start to realize that gays are normal people too and deserve to be treated as normal citizens as well? Just curious because it sounds like you are fresh to this and still going thinking a lot of things through.It's just really weird for me. When I was younger, being gay was weird and being straight was the norm. Now society is so open about it, with marriage and all that stuff..it just hits you in the face like a pound of bricks. Especially since I was never into politics, now gay marriage pops up everywhere.

[Broken Parachute]

No this is completely new thinking to you. Just admit it.I'll admit that I want to have sex with you, but that's it really.

[CountMeOut923]

It's just really weird for me. When I was younger, being gay was weird and being straight was the norm. Now society is so open about it, with marriage and all that stuff..it just hits you in the face like a pound of bricks. Especially since I was never into politics, now gay marriage pops up everywhere.

yeah it can be weird at first but remember the society we are living in. I remember going to a gay club when i turned 18 and it opened my mind even more. No, I am not gay but I was tagging along with a friend whose friend was gay. It just takes a little bit at a time for you to get used to it. But in all honesty, this is 2007 and we shouldnt be living the same way our parents did. I would like to think that our society has grown up at least a tiny bit and that we can be less squeamish about it.

[CountMeOut923]

I'll admit that I want to have sex with you, but that's it really.

hahaha

[nfggc10]

I don't hate gays. I don't like the idea of gay marriage. I won't make it illegal because I disgree with it though, because I have no right to make decisions for a way of life I am not a part of. In short, even though I don't agree with it, I won't vote against it.

That's....really all I've been saying for like 5 pages.Why do you keep saying that? And how selfish can you be to only look at issues that personally affect you? If this country was made up of people like you, which sadly there are way too many of, then hardly any issues would get passed in the area of human rights. And you can't use that you're only getting into politics and that you've just been absorbing spoon-fed garbage your whole like as crutches. I grew up in a household with Catholic parents and from the beginning I chose not to be a part of that. Even as you enter your teens it gets pretty easy to develop rational decisions/beliefs on some basic societal/governmental issues/policies. I'm honestly scared of where this country is headed when this generation starts to hold governmental positions because we're going to be screwed. The overwhelming sense of complacency among young adults/teens is unforgivable in a time like this when so much is going wrong and we're on the edge of either falling off the cliff or stay afloat and moving back in a better direction. You can just look at voter turnout which in a country that likes to pride itself on our level of "freedom" and "democracy" is an absolute joke and we're robbing on ourselves of chances to stop the bleeding. To have about half of the eligible voters actually take part really says alot about the last two generations and the lack of ideals/morals that were passed on to us. In fact, it feels weird that there hasn't been Vietnam-like protests around the country and on most college campuses like there were when people actually gave a shit.

[concernedparent]

I'll admit that I want to have sex with you, but that's it really.
That's sick dude, nothing's worse in the world than homosexuality.

[Broken Parachute]

Sometimes I feel like opposing my parents would make them really dislike me. I love my parents to death, but they are staunch Conservative Catholics. Most of my family is. It's just weird to have my own opinions now and feel like they're wrong because of the way I was brought up. I feel like an idiot..but it's just really weird for me thinking one way my whole life and now that I'm able to form my own opinions and they feel wrong. I can't explain it.

[tambam]

Sometimes I feel like opposing my parents would make them really dislike me. I love my parents to death, but they are staunch Conservative Catholics. Most of my family is. It's just weird to have my own opinions now and feel like they're wrong because of the way I was brought up. I feel like an idiot..but it's just really weird for me thinking one way my whole life and now that I'm able to form my own opinions and they feel wrong. I can't explain it.

You're not wrong for having your opinions. What is wrong is going along with the way you were raised without developing any opinions on your own. How can your parents dislike you for being your own person? And if that's the case, they wouldn't be very supportive parents.

[Broken Parachute]

Why do you keep saying that? And how selfish can you be to only look at issues that personally affect you?..because it's my life? If I'm happy with my life, I'm happy with it. I don't care if you think it's selfish or not. I said I would vote for gay marriage to be legalized whether I agree with it or not, because it doesn't affect me so if people want that right they should have it. That's wrong?

If this country was made up of people like you, which sadly there are way too many of, then hardly any issues would get passed in the area of human rights. And you can't use that you're only getting into politics and that you've just been absorbing spoon-fed garbage your whole like as crutches. I grew up in a household with Catholic parents and from the beginning I chose not to be a part of that. Even as you enter your teens it gets pretty easy to develop rational decisions/beliefs on some basic societal/governmental issues/policies. I'm honestly scared of where this country is headed when this generation starts to hold governmental positions because we're going to be screwed. The overwhelming sense of complacency among young adults/teens is unforgivable in a time like this when so much is going wrong and we're on the edge of either falling off the cliff or stay afloat and moving back in a better direction. You can just look at voter turnout which in a country that likes to pride itself on our level of "freedom" and "democracy" is an absolute joke and we're robbing on ourselves of chances to stop the bleeding. To have about half of the eligible voters actually take part really says alot about the last two generations and the lack of ideals/morals that were passed on to us. In fact, it feels weird that there hasn't been Vietnam-like protests around the country and on most college campuses like there were when people actually gave a shit.I'm sorry. I'll try to care a little more.

That's sick dude, nothing's worse in the world than homosexuality.Yeah, or being any color besides white. That's wrong too.

[USA_Underdog]

Same-Sex marriage should be legal, if they are happy with who they married. People are allowed life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness!

[concernedparent]

Yeah, or being any color besides white. That's wrong too.
Well that's taken for granted. White people are pure. Everyone else is bad.

[Broken Parachute]

Oh, and why are you telling me not to think that way, but you said you do too...

Page 1:
As a person who opposes your belief system I definitely respect your point of view here. I just wish it were more widespread. And the last part of your post about it not affecting your life is something that seems to get lost among those that have problems with it.

Exactly. I'm not against it but I don't really feel anything for the issue. As long as it has no bearing on my life I really don't care. If people that are gay wish to be married then by all means go right ahead. If they want to adopt children then go right on ahead.

And now..
Why do you keep saying that? And how selfish can you be to only look at issues that personally affect you? If this country was made up of people like you, which sadly there are way too many of, then hardly any issues would get passed in the area of human rights. And you can't use that you're only getting into politics and that you've just been absorbing spoon-fed garbage your whole like as crutches. I grew up in a household with Catholic parents and from the beginning I chose not to be a part of that. Even as you enter your teens it gets pretty easy to develop rational decisions/beliefs on some basic societal/governmental issues/policies. I'm honestly scared of where this country is headed when this generation starts to hold governmental positions because we're going to be screwed. The overwhelming sense of complacency among young adults/teens is unforgivable in a time like this when so much is going wrong and we're on the edge of either falling off the cliff or stay afloat and moving back in a better direction. You can just look at voter turnout which in a country that likes to pride itself on our level of "freedom" and "democracy" is an absolute joke and we're robbing on ourselves of chances to stop the bleeding. To have about half of the eligible voters actually take part really says alot about the last two generations and the lack of ideals/morals that were passed on to us. In fact, it feels weird that there hasn't been Vietnam-like protests around the country and on most college campuses like there were when people actually gave a shit.

[nfggc10]

Sometimes I feel like opposing my parents would make them really dislike me. I love my parents to death, but they are staunch Conservative Catholics. Most of my family is. It's just weird to have my own opinions now and feel like they're wrong because of the way I was brought up. I feel like an idiot..but it's just really weird for me thinking one way my whole life and now that I'm able to form my own opinions and they feel wrong. I can't explain it.Yeah that's understandable but it would also say alot about you as a person that you can think for yourself. Your parents should respect you moreso for that rather than being a clone of their ideals/beliefs. Trust me, as you get older it matters less and less what people think of you and what you stand for. Doing things based on other people also fades away and you become a better person for it. It's just always a good thing when you can question everything you're taught and then if you come back and still agree then that's ok but if you don't then stand by what you yourself believe.

[Broken Parachute]

Well that's taken for granted. White people are pure. Everyone else is bad.It's the truth.

[CountMeOut923]

Why do you keep saying that? And how selfish can you be to only look at issues that personally affect you? If this country was made up of people like you, which sadly there are way too many of, then hardly any issues would get passed in the area of human rights. And you can't use that you're only getting into politics and that you've just been absorbing spoon-fed garbage your whole like as crutches. I grew up in a household with Catholic parents and from the beginning I chose not to be a part of that. Even as you enter your teens it gets pretty easy to develop rational decisions/beliefs on some basic societal/governmental issues/policies. I'm honestly scared of where this country is headed when this generation starts to hold governmental positions because we're going to be screwed. The overwhelming sense of complacency among young adults/teens is unforgivable in a time like this when so much is going wrong and we're on the edge of either falling off the cliff or stay afloat and moving back in a better direction. You can just look at voter turnout which in a country that likes to pride itself on our level of "freedom" and "democracy" is an absolute joke and we're robbing on ourselves of chances to stop the bleeding. To have about half of the eligible voters actually take part really says alot about the last two generations and the lack of ideals/morals that were passed on to us. In fact, it feels weird that there hasn't been Vietnam-like protests around the country and on most college campuses like there were when people actually gave a shit.

couldnt have said it better myself. my name is felicia, let's be friends:wave: haha

[CountMeOut923]

Sometimes I feel like opposing my parents would make them really dislike me. I love my parents to death, but they are staunch Conservative Catholics. Most of my family is. It's just weird to have my own opinions now and feel like they're wrong because of the way I was brought up. I feel like an idiot..but it's just really weird for me thinking one way my whole life and now that I'm able to form my own opinions and they feel wrong. I can't explain it.

i can understand this but you are your own person. you can respect your parents' opinions and stil have your own. You shouldn't feel like an idiot at all for stating your opinions, that is who you are as a person. It's not like you are coming out to your family if you say these things. Who knows, maybe there are other people in the family who feel the same way as you but are too afraid to go against the grain of your family? ...