Prog-influenced punk?

[davidsess]

I am researching a piece about punk bands who are incorporating prog elements (long songs, orchestration, concept albums, etc). Examples I'm thinking of would be Anberlin's "Fin," Relient K's new "Deathbed," the hidden track on the Red Jumpsuit album, etc. I thought it would be best to ask the people who would know best: why are they doing this? As fans of punk music, do you like the trend? Have other examples of this?

Post your thoughts or feel free to email me: david.sessions@slate.com

Thanks,

David Sessions
Slate Magazine
http://www.slate.com

[x togepi x]

how do you define punk? because none of those bands are punk...punk and prog are fairly diametrically opposed.

you might look into coheed and cambria or the mars volta. not punk exactly either, but they could help your article out.

[cfear]

Yeah. None of the bands you mentioned are punk...

[davidsess]

Anberlin is iffy, but Red Jumpsuit, Relient K, All-American Rejects, etc are all cut from the same pop-punk cloth. Think that way, not necessarily real punk...

[RomeoAGoGo]

Anberlin is iffy, but Red Jumpsuit, Relient K, All-American Rejects, etc are all cut from the same pop-punk cloth. Think that way, not necessarily real punk...

If you write an article about pop-rock acts such as RJA, Relient K, and AAR being prog influenced you're going to get a lot of shit. Just saying.

I'd recommend Tera Melos.

[lucasfcosta]

Brazil? they have some punk-ish background... and if you're calling RJA and anberlin punk, you're already using the term in the loosest way possible.

[davidsess]

Okay, it looked I confused matters by jumping out there with my 1) ignorance and 2) speculation. I have no idea if this has anything to do with prog, that was just a wild guess. Actually, I'm interested in why these radio-friendly rock bands like I mentioned above are going for the epic, orchestrated, 8-minute-plus song. Why do you think they're doing that, do people like it, and what do you think is motivating such a fad?

And just out of curiosity, I would love to hear how you guys define "punk" and how you would classify the top-40ish rock bands that everyone calls punk . . . like I said, I guess I'm rather ignorant on the subject.

[cfear]

Okay, it looked I confused matters by jumping out there with my 1) ignorance and 2) speculation. I have no idea if this has anything to do with prog, that was just a wild guess. Actually, I'm interested in why these radio-friendly rock bands like I mentioned above are going for the epic, orchestrated, 8-minute-plus song. Why do you think they're doing that, do people like it, and what do you think is motivating such a fad?

And just out of curiosity, I would love to hear how you guys define "punk" and how you would classify the top-40ish rock bands that everyone calls punk . . . like I said, I guess I'm rather ignorant on the subject.

We had an epic thread about this a few months ago. Does anyone remember what thread that was in? Basically, though, punk is adefinitional. You can't confine it to one set definition because it is 100% subjective. A lot of people aren't aware of many punk movements, so to people who see punk from a mainstream, consumer driven view punk is associated with the bands you mentioned. But not everyone has that same teenage "I want to be a rebel" connection to punk rock. A lot of people have a deeper connection with the movement that transcends fashion and music, but every single person as a different way of putting punk philosophy to practice in their life. Their isn't one set way to be punk. Fat Mike (Fat Wreck Chords) and Chris Clavin (Plan-It-X) look at punk in entirely different ways, but they each are considered, and consider themselves, punk. This is the way it goes. Everyone has the ability to arbitrarily decide what is and isn't punk, so punk can only be seen as an adefinitional, supra-subjective term.

That said, when it comes to punk music the best way to identify music as punk is to consider the musicians. Someone who doesn't live a punk lifestyle can't make punk music because the idea behind punk music is that it is music created by, and for, punks. The guys in the bands you mentioned are, to me, leading a life that is not punk in any way. Their music is marketed to mainstream society in an attempt to make money. That isn't punk. As PIX says, "If it ain't cheap, it ain't punk."

[Gumbyjag]

Actually, I'm interested in why these radio-friendly rock bands like I mentioned above are going for the epic, orchestrated, 8-minute-plus song. Why do you think they're doing that, do people like it, and what do you think is motivating such a fad?


No offense but I don't think you can consider it a fad because only a few popular bands are doing it, and on such a small scale (maybe a song or two per album). Maybe bands just wanna change it up. It's been said, real prog-influenced bands (The Mars Volta, Coheed And Cambria) do it regularly and Coheed is pretty radio-friendly (newer stuff). I guess it's something new to people who don't usually see that in popular bands but to most who are familiar with the scene, it's not as unique, definitely not enough to call it a fad or trend, popular bands especially.

[amplific]

im sure those radio rock bands that are actually good musicians are sick of making the same old song over and over again, so they are trying to you know, actually play something that might challenge their writing ability, such as prog

[amplific]

ps David Sess, theres this sweet show at AU on thursday...you should come! Attrition (http://myspace.com/attritiondc) / Anchors (http://myspace.com/anchorsdc) / Mass Movement of the Moth (http://www.myspace.com/massmovementofthemoth). Theres going to be kickball and food and stuff going on too!

[drmsofpsilocybi]

Check out:
The Mars Volta (Deloused In The Comatorium)
Circa Survive (kinda)
Coheed And Cambria (Second Stage Turbine Blade)
Angels And Airwaves (ugh)
Cartel (chroma... yes, its pretty progressive)
The Early November (The Mother, The Mechanic and The Path)
Funeral For A Friend (Tales Dont Tell Themselves)
Green Day (double ugh)
Mae (The Everglow)
My Chemical Romance (Three Cheers and Black Parade)
The Receiving End Of Sirens
Underoath (Define The Great Line, pretty proggy IMO)

Those are all much better sources of proggy bands that have definite punk influences (at least somewhere in their career). I do believe prog will come out of any band lucky enough to record for awhile. Its true, they really don't want to play the same exact songs basically. And after years of playing they have become better, more mature musicians, so they most definitely want to push the envelope of their abilities, and prog is a great way to do this.

[SteveLikesMusic]

Boys night out - Trainwreck

concept record with prog/classic rock guitar solos, but mostly pop rock/punk music. the solos rule especially in 'dreaming' and 'dying'.

[Gumbyjag]

Cartel (chroma... yes, its pretty progressive)
The Early November (The Mother, The Mechanic and The Path)
Funeral For A Friend (Tales Dont Tell Themselves)
Green Day (double ugh)
Mae (The Everglow)
My Chemical Romance (Three Cheers and Black Parade)


How are these albums/bands progressive? Definitely questionable.

[Stephen Chamberlain]

How are these albums/bands progressive? Definitely questionable.

I think he's conceiving of these as progressive because the albums employ a concept or narrative trajectory, but prog is about more than just lyrics which tell a story; the music has to be experimental, too. Cartel and Green Day stand out as clear examples of non-prog music.

Coheed is definitely a great example of a band with punk origins playing progressive rock successfully. Their "Willing Well" songs on Good Apollo Vol. 1 demonstrate this well. Damiera is another band which comes to mind and also shows that a band's songs don't have to be long to be progressive. There is no way any members of Cartel, Green Day, My Chemical Romance, etc. could play their songs. I would consider Minus the Bear prog as well, but definitely not punk.

[TheSkunk]

We had an epic thread about this a few months ago. Does anyone remember what thread that was in? Basically, though, punk is adefinitional. You can't confine it to one set definition because it is 100% subjective. A lot of people aren't aware of many punk movements, so to people who see punk from a mainstream, consumer driven view punk is associated with the bands you mentioned. But not everyone has that same teenage "I want to be a rebel" connection to punk rock. A lot of people have a deeper connection with the movement that transcends fashion and music, but every single person as a different way of putting punk philosophy to practice in their life. Their isn't one set way to be punk. Fat Mike (Fat Wreck Chords) and Chris Clavin (Plan-It-X) look at punk in entirely different ways, but they each are considered, and consider themselves, punk. This is the way it goes. Everyone has the ability to arbitrarily decide what is and isn't punk, so punk can only be seen as an adefinitional, supra-subjective term.

That said, when it comes to punk music the best way to identify music as punk is to consider the musicians. Someone who doesn't live a punk lifestyle can't make punk music because the idea behind punk music is that it is music created by, and for, punks. The guys in the bands you mentioned are, to me, leading a life that is not punk in any way. Their music is marketed to mainstream society in an attempt to make money. That isn't punk. As PIX says, "If it ain't cheap, it ain't punk."

I think we cant define what punk is anymore because there is no punk genre now.. Instead its all offsprings of punk.. for example post-hardcore, punk-rock, prog punk etc. This becomes evident when you look at all of the "new" or current bands. No band is classified as punk. This is not nessecarily a bad thing.. We never use the word punk by itself now because we are becomming more exact (sorry cant think of the word) or narrower with the description of our music. Punk was a wide range of music before, now its split up into many different sub-genres,

[cfear]

I think we cant define what punk is anymore because there is no punk genre now.. Instead its all offsprings of punk.. for example post-hardcore, punk-rock, prog punk etc. This becomes evident when you look at all of the "new" or current bands. No band is classified as punk. This is not nessecarily a bad thing.. We never use the word punk by itself now because we are becomming more exact (sorry cant think of the word) or narrower with the description of our music. Punk was a wide range of music before, now its split up into many different sub-genres,

Punk isn't a genre of music. Punk music has no set genre. There is a wide variety of music that punks make for themselves from Black Flag to Charles Bronson to Armed Metropolis. If you step outside of mainstream circles you realize that, when it comes to music, there are many different classifications ranging from crust to folk, but that the artists who make the music are all punk (not "all," there are some fakers).

[drmsofpsilocybi]

How are these albums/bands progressive? Definitely questionable.

Chroma is progressive in the fact that its recorded to sound like a double sided LP record and A is a recapper track, just like Take The Veil Cerpin Taxt or any other closer track on a prog cd.

Three cheers is proggressive because it carries a singular storyline throughout about a man and his wife dying and being buried in the desert.

Black Parade is obviously progressive for its singular, unifying theme and the persona "The Black Parade" much like Sgt. Peppers.

Green Day's American Idiot is also a story teller about a kid wanting to get out of his town.

The everglow also has a singular unifying theme about a boy and a girl falling in love.

Funeral For A Friend's Tales Dont Tell Themselves not only has a singular theme, but has another prog rock staple, the divided song (All Hands On Deck 1 and 2).

Not to mention, the time signatures, guitar noodling, synthesizers and other effects in all of these cds are most definitely PROG.

[cfear]

Prague?

[Tyler Revolution]

Chroma is progressive in the fact that its recorded to sound like a double sided LP record and A is a recapper track, just like Take The Veil Cerpin Taxt or any other closer track on a prog cd.

Three cheers is proggressive because it carries a singular storyline throughout about a man and his wife dying and being buried in the desert.

Black Parade is obviously progressive for its singular, unifying theme and the persona "The Black Parade" much like Sgt. Peppers.

Green Day's American Idiot is also a story teller about a kid wanting to get out of his town.

The everglow also has a singular unifying theme about a boy and a girl falling in love.

Funeral For A Friend's Tales Dont Tell Themselves not only has a singular theme, but has another prog rock staple, the divided song (All Hands On Deck 1 and 2).

Not to mention, the time signatures, guitar noodling, synthesizers and other effects in all of these cds are most definitely PROG.

No.

[lezsolt]

Chroma is progressive in the fact that its recorded to sound like a double sided LP record and A is a recapper track, just like Take The Veil Cerpin Taxt or any other closer track on a prog cd.

Three cheers is proggressive because it carries a singular storyline throughout about a man and his wife dying and being buried in the desert.

Black Parade is obviously progressive for its singular, unifying theme and the persona "The Black Parade" much like Sgt. Peppers.

Green Day's American Idiot is also a story teller about a kid wanting to get out of his town.

The everglow also has a singular unifying theme about a boy and a girl falling in love.

Funeral For A Friend's Tales Dont Tell Themselves not only has a singular theme, but has another prog rock staple, the divided song (All Hands On Deck 1 and 2).

Not to mention, the time signatures, guitar noodling, synthesizers and other effects in all of these cds are most definitely PROG.You've obviously mistaken "concept album" for "progressive".

[kidofblackhole]

Progressive Punk doesn't make sense as a genre. Progressive music usually means the music is very technical and played with great skill. The idea behind punk is to disregard skill or technicality and everything in punk is done very primitively. However there are punk bands that are more progressvie than others, what you define as progressive is up to you, for the time i think that the likes of Adolescents, Fear, Flipper, (in some instances) Descendents, BigWig, bands who play with more musical skill or bands who do things more creatively and different than three chords really really fast. Take it or Leave it thats my theory.

[phoenixinflames]

I took a whole class on prog-rock in college. As much as I would like to not believe that bands like Cartel, Mae and the like are not progressive, they are. I love many of the bands mentioned, whether they could be considered progressive or not. The truth is that many of these bands' music contains progressive elements.

Key elements to prog music include (and is certainly not limited to) long song forms, conceptual songs/albums, synthesized sounds (including keyboards, and effect pedals), and varied or complex meter. I agree...Cartel's "Chroma" sounds about as far away from Genesis' "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" as you could get, but some more recent bands have been using progressive elements in their music. Can they be classified as "progressive" bands? I don't know, but I do know they are implementing techniques used by progressive bands.

[indexfor...]

i still have no idea how Funeral For a Friend are progressive but whatever

At the Drive-In Vaya era is fairly progressive and later Fugazi's The Arguement is good, but those are post-hardcore bands and not straight forward punk

i would try Q and not U or just check out the entire Dischord Records roster of bands

[cfear]

Progressive Punk doesn't make sense as a genre. Progressive music usually means the music is very technical and played with great skill. The idea behind punk is to disregard skill or technicality and everything in punk is done very primitively. However there are punk bands that are more progressvie than others, what you define as progressive is up to you, for the time i think that the likes of Adolescents, Fear, Flipper, (in some instances) Descendents, BigWig, bands who play with more musical skill or bands who do things more creatively and different than three chords really really fast. Take it or Leave it thats my theory.

Idiot.

[Yes. And?]

this thread is kinda funny.