Craig Biggio - HOF or not?

[Scott Weber]

Craig Biggio is about to cross the 3,000 hits barrier. However, he has had far from a spectacular career. Other than 2 great back to back years in the late 90s, it's safe to say he's never really put up HOF-caliber single season batting numbers. A very good but not spectacular career with the glove, he has only 4 gold gloves (worthless stat of the day),

Career .282 hitter, .365 OBP, 412 SB, 284 HRs, 1142 RBI.

The question is, is he a HOFer? Since 1999 Biggio has been downright mediocre at the plate, and from his rookie year to 1992 he was also pretty mediocre. Career stats here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biggicr01.shtml). So, a player who only had a stretch of about 6 real solid years a hall of famer? Is 3000 hits a lock for the hall for him? Does the legend of Biggio carry more weight than his actual numbers? Do we reward a player with a nod into the hall of fame just because he played a long time?

I say no way. If Biggio finished his career with 2800 hits and those numbers, nobody would even mention him as a hall of fame candidate. But because he plays an extra year or two, hitting .246 and .228, he gets in? Makes no sense. His numbers are not HOF-worthy, and he shouldn't be immortalized as one of the all-time greats just because he played into his 40s. Players that were better for a shorter period of time should be rewarded before Biggio. 3,000 hits shouldn't a lock and Biggio is the best example of this we'll have.

[xbrokendownx]

i go with yes, just because of his consistency

[Scott Weber]

i go with yes, just because of his consistency
What consistency? Can you back that up statistically?

[thejetstolehome]

since 2000, Biggio has been average as anything:

.266 avg., .354 obp, 132 homers, 436 batted in, 66 steals.

[Broken Parachute]

I said yes simply because everyone else is going to say no, and that's the truth haha I don't think he has any chance whatsoever, even if he does get 3000 hits.

[xbrokendownx]

not really, but i mean i feel like hes been doing well for such a long time

plus he'll have 3000 hits

[cooltobeyou]

Biggio is DEFINITELY a Hall of Famer. Those career numbers don't seem that spectacular, but they are pretty damn good for a second baseman from his era. If he played mostly outfield, first, or third base with those numbers then you can forget about the hall.

[Scott Weber]

not really, but i mean i feel like hes been doing well for such a long time

plus he'll have 3000 hits
the entire point of this argument is to show that 3000 is just a number.

[xbrokendownx]

i know, i understand that

[thejetstolehome]

not really, but i mean i feel like hes been doing well for such a long time

plus he'll have 3000 hits

he hasn't hit .300 since 1999. the highest he's done since then is .294 in 2000. after that, his highest BA is .281. aside from that, everything's between .240-.260...yeah, that's great. doin' real well. he's going to get rewarded for hanging on for way too long.

his fielding may help him, though. a .985 career FP at four different positions will give him a boost.

[startBBtoday]

i say yes, if you look at similar batters it's very interesting, his career numbers are all similar to hall of famers, but his single seasons are all similar to above average players. honestly, if you give cal ripken the nod into the hall of fame, you have to give it to craig biggio too. even since 2000 he's been good for 20 home runs and almost 70 rbis, he was a great base stealer in his younger days. he's a much better b.j. surhoff.

[deadstar]

He also adapted to playing numerous positions. Though he's been above average to average for many years, he'll still get in.

[startBBtoday]

i really wouldn't say that someone hitting between 15-26 home runs from 2b is hanging on too long.

[LeftWideOpen]

i dont believe in "barometers" as automatic HOF entries. His only case would be 3,000 hits ...nothing else is near HOF worthy. And I think the aura behind 3,000 hits is going to fade away just like 500 HR's is going to (due to the era we're in).

in reality, i think biggio may get voted in ..but i dont support him being inducted. The HOF isnt the Hall of Very Good.

[Scott Weber]

i really wouldn't say that someone hitting between 15-26 home runs from 2b is hanging on too long.
The point is that he's been completely average for 8 years now and he'll get in just because he played long enough to get 3000 hits.

[cooltobeyou]

Hold on a sec...compare his numbers to Hall of Famer Ryne Sandbergs numbers:

Click this link and scroll half way down the page:

http://few4th.wordpress.com/2007/05/21/future-hall-of-fame-second-basemen/

Its a no brainer that Biggio will be in the hall

[xbrokendownx]

well that didnt work out the way you planned

[deadstar]

He also is the all-time HBP leader and was a good leadoff hitter for many years.

[startBBtoday]

he was a 2b, these are extremely good numbers for a 2b

[Broken Parachute]

Great player? No.

Pretty good player? Definitely.

HOF Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standards ): Batting - 54.9 (48) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor): Batting - 145.0 (84) (Likely HOFer > 100)

BaseballReference has him in surprisingly.

Brooks Robinson was not offensive Hall of Fame quality, but his decent stats and 16 Gold Gloves got him in. Joe Morgan was great offensively for two or three years but only decent the rest of his career with only 5 Gold Gloves, but his consecutive championships and clutch hitting in the playoffs got him in. Biggo is better offensively than both guys, but he has no championships, was never really clutch, and just sort of floated near the mediocre range his whole career.

What would it take for Biggio to get into the Hall of Fame? I'd say maybe if he manages to play one more year and ends up with 300 HR/300 SB plus the 3000 hits, the record for HBP, and if he gets 15 or more doubles before he retires, he'll be 5th all time. He's going to be an Astros HOF'er, he holds most of the team records...but all of baseball? It's tough to make any kind of case for him.

[LeftWideOpen]

He also is the all-time HBP leader and was a good leadoff hitter for many years.

HBP means nothing ..it's just a component of OBP. His OBP isnt really HOF worthy

and the good leadoff hitter for many years could describe hundreds of guys, many who arent in the HOF. Hell, you could say Kenny Lofton was a good leadoff hitter for many years.

[LeftWideOpen]

he was a 2b, these are extremely good numbers for a 2b

position shouldnt matter .. it all comes down to numbers. They arent going to let Varitek into the HOF because he was a Top 10 catcher for a decade.

[deadstar]

HBP means nothing ..it's just a component of OBP. His OBP isnt really HOF worthy

and the good leadoff hitter for many years could describe hundreds of guys, many who arent in the HOF. Hell, you could say Kenny Lofton was a good leadoff hitter for many years.
HBP is part of what makes him a great team player and upgrades his value as far as I'm concerned. Especially coming out of the leadoff spot when he knew it was his job to get on base.

[startBBtoday]

just so you guys know, in 230 something less games and 1000 less at bats, 150 more runs, 50 more doubles, 11 more triples, almost 400 more sbs, 20 more walks, 8 points higher batting average, 25 point higher obp than cal ripken

[deadstar]

position shouldnt matter .. it all comes down to numbers. They arent going to let Varitek into the HOF because he was a Top 10 catcher for a decade.

Come on. Position matters A LOT. Theres a reason everyone jizzes over Piazza being the greatest hitting catcher of all-time.

[Broken Parachute]

HBP means nothing ..it's just a component of OBP. His OBP isnt really HOF worthy

and the good leadoff hitter for many years could describe hundreds of guys, many who arent in the HOF. Hell, you could say Kenny Lofton was a good leadoff hitter for many years.If Lofton had a little more power, we'd probably be talking about him for HOF. He's not even close, now though.

[Scott Weber]

Great player? No.

Pretty good player? Definitely.

HOF Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standards ): Batting - 54.9 (48) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor): Batting - 145.0 (84) (Likely HOFer > 100)

BaseballReference has him in surprisingly.

Brooks Robinson was not offensive Hall of Fame quality, but his decent stats and 16 Gold Gloves got him in. Joe Morgan was great offensively for two or three years but only decent the rest of his career with only 5 Gold Gloves, but his consecutive championships and clutch hitting in the playoffs got him in. Biggo is better offensively than both guys, but he has no championships, was never really clutch, and just sort of floated near the mediocre range his whole career.

What would it take for Biggio to get into the Hall of Fame? I'd say maybe if he manages to play one more year and ends up with 300 HR/300 SB plus the 3000 hits, the record for HBP, and if he gets 15 or more doubles before he retires, he'll be 5th all time. He's going to be an Astros HOF'er, he holds most of the team records...but all of baseball? It's tough to make any kind of case for him.
Baseball Reference's monitor is flawed when it comes to people who've just played a long time. It takes into account the likelihood that he'll get it, but I was kinda hoping this debate would be about whether he BELONGS or not.

[Broken Parachute]

Come on. Position matters A LOT. Theres a reason everyone jizzes over Piazza being the greatest hitting catcher of all-time.No shit. It's 20412105121414 x 10^5 times harder to be a catcher. Your knees and hands become more fragile. Biggio played catcher for only a little bit, spending most of his career at 2B doesn't help his case.

[Broken Parachute]

Baseball Reference's monitor is flawed when it comes to people who've just played a long time. It takes into account the likelihood that he'll get it, but I was kinda hoping this debate would be about whether he BELONGS or not.My response in short: He doesn't belong right now.

[startBBtoday]

just so you guys know, in 230 something less games and 1000 less at bats, 150 more runs, 50 more doubles, 11 more triples, almost 400 more sbs, 20 more walks, 8 points higher batting average, 25 point higher obp than cal ripken

so just because craig biggio didn't play in a bunch of games in a row you don't think he's hall worthy?

[deadstar]

No shit. It's 20412105121414 x 10^5 times harder to be a catcher. Your knees and hands become more fragile. Biggio played catcher for only a little bit, spending most of his career at 2B doesn't help his case.
Well, name other 2B with better career numbers than Biggio. There aren't too many. Also consider he was a converted catcher to 2B where he won 4 gold gloves (yea make the case gg's dont mean much).

[LeftWideOpen]

HBP is part of what makes him a great team player and upgrades his value as far as I'm concerned. Especially coming out of the leadoff spot when he knew it was his job to get on base.

his job as a leadoff man was to get on base and he did that successfully, but not near a level worthy of a HOF induction. He was a very good leadoff man for a while who has padded his hits total by playing into his 40's.

Player A: 8625 AB's 1282 R's 2573 H's 173 HR's 1186 RBI's .298 BA .365 OBP .418 SLG
Player B: 10574 AB's 1809 R's 2979 H's 284 HR's 1142 RBI's .282 BA .365 OBP .434 SLG

Biggio his player B. You know who Player A is? Julio Franco. I dont hear anyone even trying to make a case for Julio Franco.

[Scott Weber]

so just because craig biggio didn't play in a bunch of games in a row you don't think he's hall worthy?
Did anybody say Cal Ripken Jr. deserved to be in the hall in this thread?

[startBBtoday]

Did anybody say Cal Ripken Jr. deserved to be in the hall in this thread?

well, he's in

[cooltobeyou]

The funny thing about baseball is that POSITIONS do matter when people talk about Hall of Fame Baseball players. Look at Jeff Kent. If he played his entire career at 3rd Base there would be no way in hell that he would go to the Hall of Fame. However, he is going into the Hall just because he hit so many HR's while playing 2nd Base. It seems stupid sometimes.

Hero's and Zero's are definitely made every day in baseball just by the position players are put in. Eric Gagne would have never been a star if it weren't for that manufactured stat known as the "Save."

[deadstar]

his job as a leadoff man was to get on base and he did that successfully, but not near a level worthy of a HOF induction. He was a very good leadoff man for a while who has padded his hits total by playing into his 40's.

Player A: 8625 AB's 1282 R's 2573 H's 173 HR's 1186 RBI's .298 BA .365 OBP .418 SLG
Player B: 10574 AB's 1809 R's 2979 H's 284 HR's 1142 RBI's .282 BA .365 OBP .434 SLG

Biggio his player B. You know who Player A is? Julio Franco. I dont hear anyone even trying to make a case for Julio Franco.
Julio Franco played into practically his 50s. Talk about padding your stats haha.

[bigmike]

I say no, but does it really matter? Hall of Fames a running joke anyways. Not like it's an honor for the greatest players when it's enshrining "pretty good players" year in, year out. HOF's and awards in all sports are seemingly meaningless anymore.

[xbrokendownx]

is still playing*

[deadstar]

is still playing*
Yea. Didnt even realize. He could very well play into his 50s.

[cooltobeyou]

Hall of Fames a running joke anyways. Not like it's an honor for the greatest players when it's enshrining "pretty good players" year in, year out.

You're right. The Baseball Hall of Fame will be a complete joke until after Pete Rose dies and they actually put him in there.

[bigmike]

his job as a leadoff man was to get on base and he did that successfully, but not near a level worthy of a HOF induction. He was a very good leadoff man for a while who has padded his hits total by playing into his 40's.

Player A: 8625 AB's 1282 R's 2573 H's 173 HR's 1186 RBI's .298 BA .365 OBP .418 SLG
Player B: 10574 AB's 1809 R's 2979 H's 284 HR's 1142 RBI's .282 BA .365 OBP .434 SLG

Biggio his player B. You know who Player A is? Julio Franco. I dont hear anyone even trying to make a case for Julio Franco.
Had Julio Franco not been out of the major leagues and left to tear up the Mexican league (Hit .423 in 93 games there one year) and Japan and a ton other places around the world, he'd be in the hall of fame discussion as well.

[Broken Parachute]

Well, name other 2B with better career numbers than Biggio. There aren't too many. Also consider he was a converted catcher to 2B where he won 4 gold gloves (yea make the case gg's dont mean much).Rogers Hornsby and Bill Mazeroski are the only ones I can think of that probably do.

The funny thing about baseball is that POSITIONS do matter when people talk about Hall of Fame Baseball players. Look at Jeff Kent. If he played his entire career at 3rd Base there would be no way in hell that he would go to the Hall of Fame. However, he is going into the Hall just because he hit so many HR's while playing 2nd Base. It seems stupid sometimes.

Hero's and Zero's are definitely made every day in baseball just by the position players are put in. Eric Gagne would have never been a star if it weren't for that manufactured stat known as the "Save."Kent would probably be in the Hall of Fame no matter where he played for most of his career, he's probably one of the most consistent players in all of baseball, not just at 2B. You are definitely right, though..a lot of people do place emphasis on position.

[startBBtoday]

Had Julio Franco not been out of the major leagues and left to tear up the Mexican league (Hit .423 in 93 games there one year) and Japan and a ton other places around the world, he'd be in the hall of fame discussion as well.

agreed



also, position definitely matters in hof discussion, if ryne sandberg played in the outfield, there's no way he'd be in the hall

[Drew Beringer]

I say no, but does it really matter? Hall of Fames a running joke anyways. Not like it's an honor for the greatest players when it's enshrining "pretty good players" year in, year out. HOF's and awards in all sports are seemingly meaningless anymore.
100% agree. Who cares.

[bigmike]

You're right. The Baseball Hall of Fame will be a complete joke until after Pete Rose dies and they actually put him in there.
No, the HOF is a joke right now when it elects to enshrine members of the Negro Leagues and then explicitly denies Buck O'Neil from being enshrined and enshrining less qualified people and then ASKED HIM TO SPEAK ON THEIR BEHALF and he graciously accepted and told great stories. And now he's since died and he won't get into the hall of fame.

That is a bigger injustice then dickhead Pete Rose.

[Scott Weber]

well, he's in
and so is ozzie smith, and he doesn't belong either.

[startBBtoday]

Rogers Hornsby and Bill Mazeroski are the only ones I can think of that probably do.

Kent would probably be in the Hall of Fame no matter where he played for most of his career, he's probably one of the most consistent players in all of baseball, not just at 2B. You are definitely right, though..a lot of people do place emphasis on position.

no way

[Broken Parachute]

Never mind, Mazeroski doesn't have better numbers than Biggio. Hornsby does, though.

[bigmike]

And how does position NOT matter when it comes to this sort of thing? If someone's one of the best of all time at their position should they not be respected and have a place in the HOF for that?

[thejetstolehome]

Rogers Hornsby and Bill Mazeroski are the only ones I can think of that probably do.

Kent would probably be in the Hall of Fame no matter where he played for most of his career, he's probably one of the most consistent players in all of baseball, not just at 2B. You are definitely right, though..a lot of people do place emphasis on position.

Mazeroski should be no where near the Hall of Fame.

[xbrokendownx]

someone made a throwdown on fan nation saying that cal ripken was the greatest SS of all time, and that Ozzie Smith and him were both "way" better than jeter

[startBBtoday]

someone made a throwdown on fan nation saying that cal ripken was the greatest SS of all time, and that Ozzie Smith and him were both "way" better than jeter


ripken sucks

[Broken Parachute]

Had Julio Franco not been out of the major leagues and left to tear up the Mexican league (Hit .423 in 93 games there one year) and Japan and a ton other places around the world, he'd be in the hall of fame discussion as well.If he had been given a starting job from some team who needed a DH or 1B, he'd have 3000 hits by now. He's got like 2400 or something and the last time he had a serious starting job was like 1995 or something, then he started with the Braves for awhile but those years off hurt him.

No, the HOF is a joke right now when it elects to enshrine members of the Negro Leagues and then explicitly denies Buck O'Neil from being enshrined and enshrining less qualified people and then ASKED HIM TO SPEAK ON THEIR BEHALF and he graciously accepted and told great stories. And now he's since died and he won't get into the hall of fame.

That is a bigger injustice then dickhead Pete Rose.I agree 100%.

[deadstar]

Mazeroski should be no where near the Hall of Fame.
Yea. I'm a huge Pirates fan and can acknowledge that he's in the HOF because of 1960. Even if he was the greatest defensive 2B ever.

A quick google of the greatest 2B of all-time turned this in. Compare these guys numbers to Biggio.

http://www.baseball-statistics.com/Greats/secondbasemen.htm

[startBBtoday]

no way...there's a reason he was playing around the world and not in the mlb

whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhat?

you know he's currently playing in the mlb, right? and is therefore... good enough to play in the mlb.

[Broken Parachute]

Mazeroski should be no where near the Hall of Fame.Never looked at his numbers before tonight, always assumed he was a great second baseman. I was wrong, apparently.

[Broken Parachute]

Yea. I'm a huge Pirates fan and can acknowledge that he's in the HOF because of 1960. Even if he was the greatest defensive 2B ever.

A quick google of the greatest 2B of all-time turned this in. Compare these guys numbers to Biggio.

http://www.baseball-statistics.com/Greats/secondbasemen.htmNap Lajoie!

[deadstar]

Never looked at his numbers before tonight, always assumed he was a great second baseman. I was wrong, apparently.
1960. Hes the greatest defensive 2B of all-time and hit a walk-off home run against the Yanks in game 7 of the World Series. That was it. Its funny because it makes you consider position/era a lot more.

[Broken Parachute]

1960. Hes the greatest defensive 2B of all-time and hit a walk-off home run against the Yanks in game 7 of the World Series. That was it. Its funny because it makes you consider position/era a lot more.I meant offensively. I know about the whole 1960 thing, that's the exact reason I always thought he was a great offensive second baseman.

[bigmike]

no way...there's a reason he was playing around the world and not in the mlb
I'm sorry, aren't you the person who just said Roy Halladay is a better pitcher then Johan Santana? Yeah, not going to take anything you say seriously. Thanks for playin' though.

Franco in 1994 with the White Sox: Hit .319, .406 obp, .510 slg.

Next year, couldn't get a job. Hit .306 in Japan.


1996 in Cleveland: Hit .322, .407, .470.

1997: He was terrible in Milwaukee, turned it around after getting back to Cleveland.

1998, couldn't get a job. Went to Japan and hit .290/.307/.464 at the age of 40.

1999: Hit .423/.527/.656 in 93 games in Mexico. Got a job, played 1 game for Tampa Bay. He was 41 years old.

2000: Age of 42, went and hit .327 and slugged .509 in Japan.

Yeah, production wise, there were no reasons why he wasn't getting a job. Get a clue, idiot.

[Broken Parachute]

Robinson Cano is the best defensive 2B of all time.

[Broken Parachute]

I'm sorry, aren't you the person who just said Roy Halladay is a better pitcher then Johan Santana? Yeah, not going to take anything you say seriously. Thanks for playin' though.

Franco in 1994 with the White Sox: Hit .319, .406 obp, .510 slg.

Next year, couldn't get a job. Hit .306 in Japan.


1996 in Cleveland: Hit .322, .407, .470.

1997: He was terrible in Milwaukee, turned it around after getting back to Cleveland.

1998, couldn't get a job. Went to Japan and hit .290/.307/.464 at the age of 40.

1999: Hit .423/.527/.656 in 93 games in Mexico. Got a job, played 1 game for Tampa Bay. He was 41 years old.

2000: Age of 42, went and hit .327 and slugged .509 in Japan.

Yeah, production wise, there were no reasons why he wasn't getting a job. Get a clue, idiot.He's probably our most important pinch hitter right now.

[thejetstolehome]

Nap Lajoie!

he and the great Rocco are both from Woonsocket, Rhode Island.

[Broken Parachute]

he and the great Rocco are both from Woonsocket, Rhode Island.Woonsocket! I wish I lived in Woonsocket.

yeah and he sucks. the only reason he is on the team is because omar loves him and his experience. anyway...i was referring to the times that he was in mexico, japan, etc. he was clearly able to turn his game around there and make it back to the big leagues.Julio Franco does not suck.

[xbrokendownx]

Robinson Cano is the best defensive 2B of all time.







:drew:

[thejetstolehome]

Woonsocket! I wish I lived in Woonsocket.

Julio Franco does not suck.

who doesn't?

and you're right.

he had 26 RBIs in only 165 ABs last year--extrapolated out to his career average ABs, that's 87 batted in. yeah. horrible. espeically for a 89 year old pinch hitter.

[Broken Parachute]

:drew:He's in right now, first ballot.

[Broken Parachute]

who doesn't?

and you're right.

he had 26 RBIs in only 165 ABs last year--extrapolated out to his career average ABs, that's 87 batted in. yeah. horrible. espeically for a 89 year old pinch hitter.I love Franco. He's probably 75 and he can still hit.

[xbrokendownx]

el duque and julio franco are probably like 100 years old combined

[Broken Parachute]

are you serious? he's so bad. dude, he's batting .184..he has 38 AB's and still managed to hit a HR and 8 RBI's at 50 years old.

And fuck the batting average, who the hell doesn't want him on their team as a player? He's technically a player/coach.

[startBBtoday]

no one wishes they were from rhode island.


and, no one ever said franco should be considered, they said if he played in the mlb when he was playing in japan and mexico, he would be considered.

[startBBtoday]

el duque and julio franco are probably like 100 years old combined

that's really not out of the question

[bigmike]

wow, are you crazy? is there a reason you took that so personally? anyway, i guess people just weren't hiring him in 1995, 1998, and 2000 because they didn't like him. i could care less what he did in mexico or japan. that is a joke if you think julio franco should be considered for the hall of fame.
I've already stated that I don't think biggio should get in, however, I said that if Franco had not been blackballed from MLB he would've had the same numbers and gotten in. Because I can admit someone would get in doesn't mean I think they should.

And you're right. Just discount what someone does because you didn't see it or it wasn't in America.

Do you wear a helmet to the mall?

[Broken Parachute]

El Duque is definitely wrong about his age. There's no doubt. 38 years old? No chance.

[startBBtoday]

El Duque is definitely wrong about his age. There's no doubt. 38 years old? No chance.

it's fair to add 3-5 years to all cuban ages

[startBBtoday]

El Duque is definitely wrong about his age. There's no doubt. 38 years old? No chance.

p.s. he's at least 41, his "real" birth year is 1965

[Broken Parachute]

it's fair to add 3-5 years to all cuban agesDefinitely. None of them have birth certificates. Oh, and Livan Hernandez? 32 years old? He's probably closer to 36 I'd say too.

[Broken Parachute]

p.s. he's at least 41, his "real" birth year is 1965Oh, I thought he was 38. Should have checked somewhere else other than Yahoo.

[Scott Weber]

you keep bringing up the age. if you think 50 is too old, then he shouldn't be on the team. i love julio but he's just been terrible, including his play in the field
Go back to the other thread, you never really responded to my direct statistical comparisons of Johan Santana to Halladay.

[startBBtoday]

you keep bringing up the age. if you think 50 is too old, then he shouldn't be on the team. i love julio but he's just been terrible, including his play in the field

he batted .273 last year

[Broken Parachute]

you keep bringing up the age. if you think 50 is too old, then he shouldn't be on the team. i love julio but he's just been terrible, including his play in the fieldWhat the hell do you want him to do? HE IS 50 YEARS OLD. THAT IS KIND OF RELEVANT TO THE WAY HE PLAYS. He is the oldest player in the league and can still swing a bat/play the field. He's good enough to play. he doesn't have to be like Albert Pujols to stay in the league ya know.

[xbrokendownx]

haha i love how this thread turned into a julio franco debate

[Broken Parachute]

Julio Franco > Craig Biggio

[bigmike]

i don't understand the personal insults, but fine. no one "blackballed" franco - if teams felt he was good enough to play for them, they would have signed him. and that whole comment about disregarding his play because i didn't see it or it wasn't in America is bs - the mexican league has nowhere near the level of competition that the mlb has - it is ridiculous to even insinuate that it does
His numbers all throughout his career have shown that he could've played when no one would sign him. Meaning, he was not getting offers because of reasons not related to his play. Anyone could've used a .300 lifetime hitter on their team -- even as a backup. Do you not comprehend that? I didn't think it was a hard train of thought to follow.

[Broken Parachute]

Were you dropped on your head frequently as a baby? You have made sense out of absolutely nothing tonight.

[xbrokendownx]

well i mean hes only had 38 at bats

[startBBtoday]

if you call batting .184 hitting, then okay, he's awesome. wait, wait i know - he's 50 years old though, right?

how old are you?

[Broken Parachute]

I'd say he's 12.

[xbrokendownx]

actually, hes making an out 81.6% of the time hes up.

[Broken Parachute]

Are you kidding me? I really don't know any Mets fans who think Franco has been good this year. He has been so bad. He is batting .184 and it seems like he makes an out every time he gets up. He should not be on this team.at bats = 38

YES, he sucks right now..but I don't know one team who would want him on their bench. He probably makes less money than my dad and he's good for advice and tips, and he's good for a couple of RBI's once and awhile. Not that hard to comprehend.

[startBBtoday]

how old are you?

...

[Broken Parachute]

You never said how old you were.

[Broken Parachute]

no, actually it is very hard to comprehend. i really don't think the mets, one of the best teams in baseball, need to carry a player "for good advice and tips."Jose Reyes? David Wright? Carlos Gomez?

Ever heard of these guys? They all can use tips from time to time. I would say I disagree with you.

[cooltobeyou]

That is a bigger injustice then dickhead Pete Rose.

hahah...this is something I can agree with. Pete Rose IS a dickhead...LOL.

Statistically speaking though, he should be in the hall with a little plaque that says "this dickhead gambled on baseball."

Just like Barry Bonds Hall of Fame plaque should say "this dick face used steroids"

[Broken Parachute]

O'Doyle rules.

[startBBtoday]

This is not AA or AAA. In the major leagues, every roster spot is valuable, and you do not carry a player because he can give some good pointers every now and then. If that's the case, make him a coach.

HE IS ONE YEAR REMOVED FROM A .273 BATTING AVERAGE!!!!!!

[Broken Parachute]

Why can't you just say how old you are? I don't get it.

[startBBtoday]

how old are you?

[bigmike]

HE IS ONE YEAR REMOVED FROM A .273 BATTING AVERAGE!!!!!!
No man, all pinch hitters should hit 1.000.

Nevermind the fact that Lenny Harris, the greatest pinch hitter of all time, hit under .270 for a season 11 times in his 18 seasons and was a career .269 hitter.

[Broken Parachute]

why do you keep acting like a .273 batting is something magnificant?Dare I bring up his age?

Year -- Batting Average
2001 - .300
2002 - .284
2003 - .294
2004 - .309
2005 - .275
2006 - .273

Oh, yeah..he blows.

[Broken Parachute]

stop asking how old i am and stick to the topic...you are the ones acting like juvenilesSo you are 12. It's alright.

[startBBtoday]

why do you keep acting like a .273 batting is something magnificant?

i have never ever ever said anything is magnificant.

but .273 is a great average for a 24 year old pinch hitter, not to mention one that just happens to be twice that old

[Broken Parachute]

i am talking about currently. he can't even hit the fastball anymore...

Yeah, 2006/2005 is awhile back, you're right. He lost his swing a long time ago.

[startBBtoday]

julio franco should not be on this time, no matter how much people may like him.

why do you keep using the wrong http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Martin-Gramatica-R.jpg

[Broken Parachute]

have you even been following the mets this season?No, not really.

[startBBtoday]

2006 isn't current. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY JULIO?!

http://rowlandsoffice.typepad.com/weblog/images/juliofrancodon.jpg

[bigmike]

julio franco should not be on this time, no matter how much people may like him.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/wasteofspace04/getoffthestageretard.jpg

[Broken Parachute]

then why are we having this discussion?..because you are too retarded to understand sarcasm.

[startBBtoday]

guys, i don't know if you caught the new york metropolitans game tonight, but jose reyes went 0-4. dude has totally lost his swing. get him off that team. i don't want him in my league.

[startBBtoday]

dude, soriano might have hit 3 home runs tonight, but did you catch his last two at bats? 0 home runs, dude lost his swing, why haven't the cubs cut him yet?

[Broken Parachute]

Why the hell are you acting like .315 is so magnificent.

[startBBtoday]

i wanna know how old this kid is

[Broken Parachute]

Ironically enough, he's probably like Julio Franco...doesn't know his real age.

[startBBtoday]

ahahaha nimrod is cuban, his birth certificate was lost.

[Broken Parachute]

I GOT IT! This kid is Elian Gonzalez! That makes him...like 14, which sounds about right.

[Broken Parachute]

We're giving you shit because your arguments make no sense. I couldn't care less whether you think he should be on the team or not, but he's good..and you're basically saying he's not.

[Broken Parachute]

actually...i am hispanic, and no, my birth certificate was not lost....Andres Galerraga? is that you? That explains why you're mad at Julio Franco, he took your starting job.

[startBBtoday]

you guys keep questioniong my maturity but then keep personally insulting me because i have a differing opinion...this is supposed to be a sports thread. anyway, you seem to be in agreement that it is basically a joke to think that franco shouldn't be on this team, but many, many mets fans actually think this. i won't post any links to any articles written or anything of that nature because i realize the moderator would not want that, but many mets fan believe that franco should not be on the team, not only myself.

why would scott not want that?

[Broken Parachute]

that's fine - i respect your opinion.Be the better man.

[startBBtoday]

seriously dude, i won't even make fun of your age at this point, i just want to know

[Broken Parachute]

I was never going to make fun of his age. I seriously wanted to know because he didn't want to tell.

[startBBtoday]

How Old Are You?!

[Broken Parachute]

The batteries on your joke meter are really low.

[bigmike]

I don't care what his age is. he could be 91, his thoughts on baseball are ridiculous. "Halladay's the better pitcher then Santana despite worse numbers, worse durability. but hey, he had 6 more wins in a season then Santana did despite worse numbers across the board in every single statistical category, minus the completely team dependant stat of Wins."

[Scott Weber]

why would scott not want that?
BAN HAMMER
x

[thejetstolehome]

this thread made me lol a few times.

[phenomenalsmith]

Biggio is one of the ten best second basemen of all time, and one of the top 5 of the last 60 years.

[StandMyBrothers]

3,000 isn't an easy feat to do, he gets the nod

[Broken Parachute]

I like the way Tony Kornheiser put it. You gave your team 3000 opportunities to drive in a run or start a rally, that's pretty amazing.

[bigmike]

And in the last year and a half, he's probably killed 3000 rallies. Rumors are his playing time will be drastically cut when he reaches and passes 3,000. Like, might not be the starter type cut.

[Broken Parachute]

I saw that coming. He's old, who wants to watch him drag ass all year?

[Scott Weber]

3,000 isn't an easy feat to do, he gets the nod
It is when you play way past the point of being productive at an above average level.

[StandMyBrothers]

well most hitters in the majors didn't do it so thats why, sure he might be playing selfishly for his own reasons.

[Scott Weber]

well most hitters in the majors didn't do it so thats why, sure he might be playing selfishly for his own reasons.
His career numbers should not overshadow the fact that he has been a mediocre baseball player for the last 7 or 8 years. He had about 3 HOF caliber seasons. I don't think you should reward a guy for simply playing a long time.

[thejetstolehome]

His career numbers should not overshadow the fact that he has been a mediocre baseball player for the last 7 or 8 years. He had about 3 HOF caliber seasons. I don't think you should reward a guy for simply playing a long time.

word.

[StandMyBrothers]

I'm not going to argue that part

[+thecalisonme]

Great player? No.

Pretty good player? Definitely.

HOF Standards (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standards ): Batting - 54.9 (48) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_monitor): Batting - 145.0 (84) (Likely HOFer > 100)

BaseballReference has him in surprisingly.

Brooks Robinson was not offensive Hall of Fame quality, but his decent stats and 16 Gold Gloves got him in. Joe Morgan was great offensively for two or three years but only decent the rest of his career with only 5 Gold Gloves, but his consecutive championships and clutch hitting in the playoffs got him in. Biggo is better offensively than both guys, but he has no championships, was never really clutch, and just sort of floated near the mediocre range his whole career.

What would it take for Biggio to get into the Hall of Fame? I'd say maybe if he manages to play one more year and ends up with 300 HR/300 SB plus the 3000 hits, the record for HBP, and if he gets 15 or more doubles before he retires, he'll be 5th all time. He's going to be an Astros HOF'er, he holds most of the team records...but all of baseball? It's tough to make any kind of case for him.
Black Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink): Batting - 17 (130) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink (http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#gray_ink): Batting - 106 (199) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
just so you guys know, in 230 something less games and 1000 less at bats, 150 more runs, 50 more doubles, 11 more triples, almost 400 more sbs, 20 more walks, 8 points higher batting average, 25 point higher obp than cal ripken
dont forget the 150 less hr and 600 rbi

[bigmike]

Biggio was also a leadoff hitter, which would deflate any RBI totals compared to Ripken, who wasn't a leadoff hitter.

[youkwalks]

If he gets to 3000 he'll get in.

should he? the case could be made he was a top second basemen of his time, but who knows.

3000 is definite, though.

[youkwalks]

And maybe its been said...but Scott, if you have Sandberg in why do you have Biggio out?

[Scott Weber]

And maybe its been said...but Scott, if you have Sandberg in why do you have Biggio out?
Because I think career numbers are MASSIVELY overrated and we should look at a player's consistency and production throughout his entire career instead of what he ended up with. I also think there's a difference between justifying a player already in and if I would vote him in today, considering how much higher the bar is now than it was 10 years ago.