After 3 weeks, who is the best WR in the NFL?

[Drew Beringer]

Here's a little poll/debate to liven up the day.

[rcrook]

Fuck. I put T.O. because his performance last night was unreal. But if anybody says Randy Moss I will not argue against you at all. T.O. and Moss are by far the best 2 receivers thus far.

[Drew Beringer]

Ocho Cinco is the best thus far, followed by TO.

[Brownpants06]

Gotta be Randy. him and brady are the next culpepper to moss. wait a second

[xbrokendownx]

had andre johnson played yesterday and had a good game i wouldve said him, but ill go with Chad

[Scott Weber]

I'd have to go with Chad Johnson. He's been fighting off double coverage all year, been a target of defenses because of his trash talk and promises of celebrations, but has made incredible catches every week. Brady has been phenomenal and laid out some real pretty gems for Moss, but Chad has had to fight for his catches a bit more, plus he's taken a ton more contact.

[leftstranded]

just from watching over the past week, i think it's a really close race between chad johsnon and randy moss. i'm giving the edge to moss only because he seems to have had more big catches than chad johnson. granted as scott said, chad is having to fight for what he's gotten, moss seems to be having much bigger games, and it's hard for me to pick anyone else over him

[Scott Weber]

Chad Johnson has more receptions and yardage than Randy Moss...just less touchdowns.

[Drew Beringer]

And Chad Johnson has faced arguably better defenses.

[williek311]

No talk for Plax yet? The only reason why I mention him is because he is on my fantasy football team and has been money. This is a tough descision though.

EDIT: After I looked at the stats Plax doesn't have that many yards compared to Randy/Chad he just has 5TDs. I choose Chad Johnson as the best WR in the NFL.

[Drew Beringer]

If you voted other, please state who and why.

[marrost]

kgLNdaraAOk

[Drew Beringer]

kgLNdaraAOk
yeah I meant to add him to the poll. I would say he is definitely up there.

[marrost]

Yea not the best, but he's definitely in the top five thus far.

[xbrokendownx]

chris chambers!!!

somehow hes like 5th in the league in yards haha

[Joe DeAndrea]

Burress<3

[kbauer]

I accidentally clicked other somehow, but you cant argue with Randy Moss right now.

I will say that if CJ stays healthy and they throw to him more, look out. The catches hes made, and how he moves with the ball after the catch and initial contact...look out. Hes the real fucking deal. But he plays with the Lions so he'll have a career ending injury by week 10.

[hockey0001]

If i wasnt from mass. id say Chad Johnson, but i am so Randy Moss

[hockey0001]

Chad Johnson has more receptions and yardage than Randy Moss...just less touchdowns.


Its only 1 more catch a game, but Moss also has a higher ypc which is a minimal difference as well, theyve been virtually identical

[Scott Weber]

Its only 1 more catch a game, but Moss also has a higher ypc which is a minimal difference as well, theyve been virtually identical
Rationalize however you want.

[we are cured]

chad johnson. let's see how moss plays against the ravens defense...because i was really impressed with 85's outing that game.

[Scott Weber]

teams have also had years to prepare and scout Chad Johnson in that offense...Moss is new.

[rcrook]

Good arguments guy, youve got me hooked to Ocho Cinco. You have to respect the man, he talks so much shit but he backs it up.

[hockey0001]

Rationalize however you want.

It was basically supporting your argument that theyve been basically the same. Moss has more TDs which puts him ahead in my opinion. You could also make the argument that Moss has been more consistent. 100+ yards and atleast 1td each game.

[hockey0001]

teams have also had years to prepare and scout Chad Johnson in that offense...Moss is new.

Johnson has had years of playing with Palmer, they know each other. Moss and Brady are still getting used to each other.

[Scott Weber]

It was basically supporting your argument that theyve been basically the same. Moss has more TDs which puts him ahead in my opinion. You could also make the argument that Moss has been more consistent. 100+ yards and atleast 1td each game.
Brady's got a hell of a lot more targets/options than Palmer does. Moss hasn't seen nearly as much heavy coverage - and TDs are situational. How many of those were blown coverage and how many were created by Moss?

[Scott Weber]

Johnson has had years of playing with Palmer, they know each other. Moss and Brady are still getting used to each other.
It's the most physically talented wide receiver in the NFL and the smartest QB in the NFL. Not a big adjustment period there.

[looksthatkillbn]

had andre johnson played yesterday and had a good game i wouldve said him, but ill go with Chad

andre johnson was my first thought, but since he didn't play last week i've gotta give it to moss. i love andre johnson though, with him in the right system he's unstoppable

[Drew Beringer]

Again my rankings would be 1. Ocho Cinco 2. TO 3. Moss

Reggie Wayne had a great first week but the Indy offense has been kinda stagnant as of late.

[rcrook]

what statement do you guys agree with more?

Johnson makes Palmer look better than he really is or Brady makes Moss look better than he really is.

Or are both statements false and all 4 individuals are just that good regardless of their counterpart.

[Scott Weber]

All 4 are just amazing.

[hockey0001]

Brady's got a hell of a lot more targets/options than Palmer does. Moss hasn't seen nearly as much heavy coverage - and TDs are situational. How many of those were blown coverage and how many were created by Moss?

Moss has made plenty of difficult catches. His touchdown against the Jets was after he beat triple coverage, and both touchdown catches yesterday was against basically perfect coverage. Maybe his 2nd td you in the SD game you can attribute to blown coverage, but thats it.

I agree that Brady has more weapons, but i dont think its by a lot. They both have 2 main targets at reciever, Moss-Welker and Johnson-Houshmanzadeh, TE id say is where the main advantage is and also when Faulk is in the backfield hes a better reciever. Stallworth has basically been non-existant so far

[hockey0001]

what statement do you guys agree with more?

Johnson makes Palmer look better than he really is or Brady makes Moss look better than he really is.

Or are both statements false and all 4 individuals are just that good regardless of their counterpart.

Id say Brady makes Moss better, and thats based on what Brady made Branch, Givens, Patten, Caldwell, and Gaffney all look like. But id also say that Brady doesnt make Moss significantly better. But it helps in cases like the 2nd td pass yesterday. The only other qbs that make that throw are Manning and Palmer.

All 4 are just amazing.

which is also true

[Scott Weber]

I don't really think Brady makes Moss all THAT better, certainly no more better than he was in Minnesota. He never had a future HOFer throwing to him there and he put up monster numbers.

[LeftWideOpen]

what statement do you guys agree with more?

Johnson makes Palmer look better than he really is or Brady makes Moss look better than he really is.

Or are both statements false and all 4 individuals are just that good regardless of their counterpart.

hard to say. they are all good regardless, but Palmer has never had to play without Johnson and Brady has never gotten to play with Moss (before now). It would merely be speculation to assert either statement.

[rcrook]

I'd like to see Carson Palmer's numbers without Chad Johnson. I'm not doubting Palmer. He is a top tier QB even without 85 but I'd like to see how significant CJ is to Palmer's success.

[mikeyxxcore]

Moss can do some great things but I like the Chad and TJ connection.

Sometimes a feel like TJ is a tad better because he always seems to make the more amazing catches.

[kshtoinks12]

Definitely a healthy Andre.

[LeftWideOpen]

as for the poll question, i'm on board with hockey0001. I think Johnson and Moss are just about dead even when you factor in all stats, but I voted Moss out of my love for the Pats.

This is a really difficult question to try and answer after only Week 3.

[we are cured]

tj isn't afraid to get his clock cleaned going across the field, that's why.

[Drew Beringer]

what statement do you guys agree with more?

Johnson makes Palmer look better than he really is or Brady makes Moss look better than he really is.

Or are both statements false and all 4 individuals are just that good regardless of their counterpart.
Moss proved in Oakland that he needs a good quarterback to be productive.

[hockey0001]

I don't really think Brady makes Moss all THAT better, certainly no more better than he was in Minnesota. He never had a future HOFer throwing to him there and he put up monster numbers.

thats basically what i said. He doesnt make Moss significantly better.

[rcrook]

tj isn't afraid to get his clock cleaned going across the field, that's why.


only when marlon mcree comes in for a late hit....marlon mcree is a douchebag....and he is on my own team

[Drew Beringer]

as for the poll question, i'm on board with hockey0001. I think Johnson and Moss are just about dead even when you factor in all stats, but I voted Moss out of my love for the Pats.

This is a really difficult question to try and answer after only Week 3.
I'm going to revisit this in late November/early December. But seeing Moss, TO, Ocho Cinco, and other receivers put up huge numbers thus far, I thought it would be fun to discuss.

[rcrook]

Good Poll Drew. Im surprised to see that the top 3 big name receivers in the game. TO, Moss and CJ are all performing well. Normally one of the three is slacking but not this year.

[Scott Weber]

jesus I always forget how many Pats fans we have on this board.

[rcrook]

yeah the east coasters mob it in the sports forum. defintely a lot more east coasters in here than west coasters.

[hockey0001]

I'm going to revisit this in late November/early December. But seeing Moss, TO, Ocho Cinco, and other receivers put up huge numbers thus far, I thought it would be fun to discuss.

I dont see Moss's number dropping at all, in fact they could even get better with the next 2 teams pats face cincinatti and cleveland

[mht]

Antonio Gates


if D-Hall didn't shut down Steve Smith yesterday, I would have said him.

[mht]

Oh and Kevin Curtis lollll

[Drew Beringer]

I dont see Moss's number dropping at all, in fact they could even get better with the next 2 teams pats face cincinatti and cleveland
Yeah, I don't see them dropping either, at least against those two teams, but you never know, he could have a meltdown, same thing with TO. But right now TO and Moss are the happiest they've been in a long time.

[hockey0001]

Yeah, I don't see them dropping either, at least against those two teams, but you never know, he could have a meltdown, same thing with TO. But right now TO and Moss are the happiest they've been in a long time.

agreed, over the course of the season i think they will be lower than they are now, especially once they start playing the cold weather. And it seems like at this point it will have to be some major to set either one of them off

[crit]

Itt's gotta be Chad. Randy would have to be #2.

[Chris M.]

Steve Smith

Didn't play to well yesterday, but the guy is amazing.

[hockey0001]

Steve Smith

Didn't play to well yesterday, but the guy is amazing.

so hes had 2 good games out of 3, therefore not the best receiver of the season so far. Everyone in the argument has had three real good-great games

[preppyak]

Antonio Gates
I'd put him up there right now...seeing as LT has been stagnant and no other WR on that team is putting up even half his numbers. Not the top to me, but, after I put Chad and Randy, I might put Gates and TO tied at 3

I expect Kellen Winslow to become even more of a focal point for his team (like Gates), so I wouldn't be surprised to see him break through with his #'s either.

[AshesAshes]

Im undecided but I would throw roy williams and steve smith on the poll but you added an other option so I cant complain

[bigmike]

It's the most physically talented wide receiver in the NFL and the smartest QB in the NFL. Not a big adjustment period there.
I haven't seen every WR ever, but I cannot imagine a more physically gifted and talented wide reciever to ever play in the NFL then Randy Moss. Ideal size, runs like a gazelle, great hands. He is the guy if you were to just create a WR to be the best of all time, he is essentially what one would make.
Moss proved in Oakland that he needs a good quarterback to be productive.
Oakland also proved that Moss does want to win and that they have no offensive line so no QB would've been able to get Moss the ball. I give him a pass for his time in Oakland -- who else would've been good in that situation?

[Vincewithouthee]

If we're talking about talent, Randy Moss will always win this debate. TO comes in at second to me as well.

If we're talking about who's looking the best so far this year, has the best stats, and who will be the best the rest of the year then it's Chad Johnson.

[rcrook]

I'd put him up there right now...seeing as LT has been stagnant and no other WR on that team is putting up even half his numbers. Not the top to me, but, after I put Chad and Randy, I might put Gates and TO tied at 3

I expect Kellen Winslow to become even more of a focal point for his team (like Gates), so I wouldn't be surprised to see him break through with his #'s either.


Well technically Gates is a Tight End who gets as many receptions as a top tier receiver. Who is the best TE in the NFL? All votes go to Gates.

[rosematter]

I voted for T.O, simply because I don't think he has the players around him that Chad Johnson and Randy Moss have. I mean Randy Moss as Tom Brady throwing to him, as wall as Wes Welker and Donte Stallworth so you can't just shut down Moss or the Pats will burn you in other ways. Chad Johnson has Palmer and T.J as well. T.O has Romo, who has played well but is still unproven, and Terry Glenn has been out of the lineup for the first three weeks, and none of the other receivers on their roster are anything to write home about. So my top 3 would be T.O, Chad Johnson, and then Randy Moss.

[Killadelphia]

roy williams or andre johnson.

[Scott Weber]

andre johnson is a sexy pick right now because of his fantasy stats, but dude. he missed week 3 and several of his touchdowns were wide open blown coverage. He's #4 or 5 at best.

[Killadelphia]

andre johnson is a sexy pick right now because of his fantasy stats, but dude. he missed week 3 and several of his touchdowns were wide open blown coverage. He's #4 or 5 at best.

I was basing it off who I think has the best talent, not just numbers.

It is Chad Johnson, Andre Johnson, or Roy Williams.

I do think if you inserted Andre Johnson or Roy Williams in the Bengals, Cowboys, etc lineups, they'd have similar numbers.

[Scott Weber]

Andre Johnson is just as talented now as he was last year, and the years before that. The only reason he's getting ANY recognition is because the Texans are 2-1 and he's been a nice fantasy surprise with his end zone receptions.

[Killadelphia]

Andre Johnson is just as talented now as he was last year, and the years before that. The only reason he's getting ANY recognition is because the Texans are 2-1 and he's been a nice fantasy surprise with his end zone receptions.

And when you play for a shitty team, with a shitty line, and a shitty qb, it hurts wr's #s.

See Randy Moss in Oakland.

[Scott Weber]

Don't care, Andre is not a top 5 receiver in terms of talent in this league.

I would put Chad Johnson, Randy Moss, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Steve Smith, Torry Holt, Roy Williams, T.O., Marvin Harrison all above him..and maybe a few more.

[IAmNietzche]

Top 5 Receivers "Talent Wise"

1. Steve Smith
2. Terrell Owens
3. Roy Williams
4. Randy Moss
5. Anquan Boldin

[Scott Weber]

steve smith lacks the size to be the most talented receiver in the league.

[yeknom]

Top 5 Receivers "Talent Wise"

1. Steve Smith
2. Terrell Owens
3. Roy Williams
4. Randy Moss
5. Anquan Boldin
I think you need to have CJ in there.

[we are cured]

scott, i respectively disagree. johnson has been a fantasy machine the past two years and he was doing it with david carr.

[Scott Weber]

scott, i respectively disagree. johnson has been a fantasy machine the past two years and he was doing it with david carr.
I also respectfully disagree with you. In order to be a fantasy machine, you have to find the end zone.

Last year, in standard Yahoo formats, Andre Johnson was the 18th ranked WR (total points) behind Joey Galloway, Laverneaus Coles (sp), and Darrell Jackson, among others.

The year before than he was barely ranked in the top 50...63 catches for 688 yards and 2 TDs.

So no, he wasn't. In fact, he was a poor WR1 option in 06, a mediocre WR2 in 06 as well, and a borderline WR3 in 05...

[Killadelphia]

i didn't know we're talking about fantasy #s.

[Scott Weber]

i didn't know we're talking about fantasy #s.
He was the one who brought it up in regards to Andre.

[deadstar]

steve smith lacks the size to be the most talented receiver in the league.
I'm just throwing this out there because I've seen you do this in another discussion.

I find it odd that you equate talent with physical tools.

[Scott Weber]

I'm just throwing this out there because I've seen you do this in another discussion.

I find it odd that you equate talent with physical tools.
Why? Height is a gigantic advantage for the ideal, gifted WR. Steve Smith is certainly very talented, but limited when it comes to jump balls. That's not odd. Smith's small size prevents him from making certain catches and getting certain balls thrown to him - in my mind, that prevents him from being the most talented. How can he be the most talented if he can't catch the same balls Randy Moss can?

[deadstar]

I just consider talent to be different from physical tools. Thats all I was going for. I understand why Smith cant be considered in the same league as some of the other bigger WRs.

[Scott Weber]

I just consider talent to be different from physical tools. Thats all I was going for. I understand why Smith cant be considered in the same league as some of the other bigger WRs.
Talent is a direct result of physical tools, that makes no sense. Physical tools = size, speed, jumping ability, catching.

It's like saying Nate Robinson is more talented than say...Elton Brand. Faster, better vertical, better ballhandling...

[Killadelphia]

He was the one who brought it up in regards to Andre.

Ah okay. As a fantasy wr Andre is way down, but I think a lot of has to do with the Texans.

Talent wise, He's pretty damn good.

[Killadelphia]

Skills for a WR...Speed, Hands, Agility for after the catch, route running.

Now I don't think Steve Smith is the best WR, but I wouldn't say because he doesn't have the size to go for a jump ball, he can do other things that some wrs can't.

[mht]

Skills for a WR...Speed, Hands, Agility for after the catch, route running.

Now I don't think Steve Smith is the best WR, but I wouldn't say because he doesn't have the size to go for a jump ball, he can do other things that some wrs can't.



like this:

kjNqfshDTUI


"you're hung like a girl"

oh the originality of a drunk eagles fan.

[Scott Weber]

You can't just omit ability to catch jump balls from a WR skillset when it is a huge advantage to have, that's fucking retarded.

[Killadelphia]

You can't just omit ability to catch jump balls from a WR skillset when it is a huge advantage to have, that's fucking retarded.

I'm not omitting it, but there are plenty of wrs that have size and go up for the jump ball, it doesn't mean they're a good wr.

You said he doesn't have size, thats fine, but he must be doing something right to get open as much as he does on a team with no other wrs worth talking about.

[Scott Weber]

I'm not omitting it, but there are plenty of wrs that have size and go up for the jump ball, it doesn't mean they're a good wr.

You said he doesn't have size, thats fine, but he must be doing something right to get open as much as he does on a team with no other wrs worth talking about.
...

it's like talking to a brick wall.

Yes, Steve Smith has other abilities that are superior, but you cannot simply eliminate size from the equation or say that it is made up for by something else. It is a weakness. Period. In my mind that prevents him from being the most talented/hands down ideal WR. I am only disputing the fact that somebody called him the most talented in the NFL. He's easily top 5.

[Killadelphia]

...

it's like talking to a brick wall.

Yes, Steve Smith has other abilities that are superior, but you cannot simply eliminate size from the equation or say that it is made up for by something else. It is a weakness. Period. In my mind that prevents him from being the most talented/hands down ideal WR. I am only disputing the fact that somebody called him the most talented in the NFL. He's easily top 5.

just wondering who did you choose?

[Scott Weber]

just wondering who did you choose?
Moss. From a pure physical and talent standpoint.

[Chris M.]

If Steve Smith could keep the skillset he has now, and gain a couple of inches, he'd likely be the best talent wise. Right now, talent wise, I'd have to go with Scott and say Randy Moss. When he runs it doesn't even look like he's trying and he still outruns everyone on the field.

[Scott Weber]

If Steve Smith could keep the skillset he has now, and gain a couple of inches, he'd likely be the best talent wise. Right now, talent wise, I'd have to go with Scott and say Randy Moss. When he runs it doesn't even look like he's trying and he still outruns everyone on the field.
Yeah, if Steve Smith was 6'1'' instead of 5'7'' (there's no way he's 5'9'') he'd be right up there with Moss. One thing Smith does struggle with though is breaking out of good coverage. When he's double teamed by 2 capable corners or covered by one talented corner, he can't do shit. (see - last week w/ Hall, 2005 NFC championship, etc etc). Guys like Chad Johnson, Owens, Moss - it doesn't matter as much who they're covered by, they get open and make plays.

[deadstar]

...

it's like talking to a brick wall.

Yes, Steve Smith has other abilities that are superior, but you cannot simply eliminate size from the equation or say that it is made up for by something else. It is a weakness. Period. In my mind that prevents him from being the most talented/hands down ideal WR. I am only disputing the fact that somebody called him the most talented in the NFL. He's easily top 5.

Its a very good point. I just dont consider height to be a part of a receiver's "talent".

[looksthatkillbn]

...

it's like talking to a brick wall.

Yes, Steve Smith has other abilities that are superior, but you cannot simply eliminate size from the equation or say that it is made up for by something else. It is a weakness. Period. In my mind that prevents him from being the most talented/hands down ideal WR. I am only disputing the fact that somebody called him the most talented in the NFL. He's easily top 5.

purely a question, how much weight do you give talent to being the "best" at the position?

[Scott Weber]

purely a question, how much weight do you give talent to being the "best" at the position?
I don't understand the question.

[mht]

If you guys actually watch the Panthers playbook, some of their passing plays are designed strictly for Steve Smiths "talents." They know he is small and they can't just lob it up in triple coverage like Tom Brady has been doing to Moss and bringing it for touchdowns. Steve Smith actually has reverses, screens, short passes and quick slants set up just to get him the ball and hope that he can do the rest of the work. But once Steve Smith plays a good shut down corner, he is out of the game and the Panthers having nothing else. Because good corners can bump and play that close line of scrimmage short passing. It's when they get out jumped by WR's like Moss, Johnson, TO, Williams etc that corners lose the battle.

[looksthatkillbn]

I don't understand the question.

well you guys are having quite the little discussion about talent, and who a top five talented wide receiver in the league is, but how much do you equate that to being the best? some guys are most definitely not the most talented but are still top wide receivers.

some people may rate talent differently to being the best, judging by your prior posts it's extremely important in your system of ranking wide receivers (presuming you have one, saying earlier moss was no 1 talented and no 1 this year, with steve smith being top five talent)

[mht]

Well if they didn't have "talent" they wouldn't be playing in the NFL would they?

[hockey0001]

talent = speed, acceleration, jumping ability, catching ability...basically anything that is considered "god given" but can still be improved, at least slightly, by working on it

Id consider height when dealing with who is the best overall at a position but not most talented. For the sake of argument, Smith and Moss are equally talented, but Moss is the better receiver because he can catch balls that Smith cant

[looksthatkillbn]

Well if they didn't have "talent" they wouldn't be playing in the NFL would they?

yeah that didn't get worded very prettily, but there are obvious examples, ie zach thomas

[Scott Weber]

well you guys are having quite the little discussion about talent, and who a top five talented wide receiver in the league is, but how much do you equate that to being the best? some guys are most definitely not the most talented but are still top wide receivers.

some people may rate talent differently to being the best, judging by your prior posts it's extremely important in your system of ranking wide receivers (presuming you have one, saying earlier moss was no 1 talented and no 1 this year, with steve smith being top five talent)
I don't know that I can provide an accurate sliding scale answer to your liking there. There is obviously some sort of balance between performance and pure physical ability.

[looksthatkillbn]

I don't know that I can provide an accurate sliding scale answer to your liking there. There is obviously some sort of balance between performance and pure physical ability.

well i didn't exactly expect you to say it's 63 percent talent lol, i was more looking at ballpark, simply as a way to facilitate my view on the previous discussion

[mht]

Are we actually giving like our own Madden ratings on players on a real life level now? I am lost.