Kosovo Declares Independence From Serbia

[Love As Arson]

PRISTINA, Kosovo (AP) — Revelers fired guns, waved red-and-black Albanian flags and set off fireworks over Kosovo Sunday after parliament proclaimed independence in defiance of Serbia and Russia, which condemned the declaration of the world's newest nation.

A decade after a bloody separatist war with Serbian forces that claimed 10,000 lives, lawmakers pronounced the territory the Republic of Kosovo and pledged to make it a "democratic, multiethnic state." Its leaders looked for swift recognition from the U.S. and key European powers — but also braced for a bitter showdown.

Serbia called the declaration illegal and its ally Russia denounced it, saying it threatened to touch off a new conflict in the Balkans. Russia called for an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council, which met later Sunday.

In the capital, Pristina, the mood was jubilant. Thousands of ethnic Albanians braved subfreezing temperatures to ride on the roofs of their cars, singing patriotic songs and chanting: "KLA! KLA!" the acronym for the now-disbanded rebel Kosovo Liberation Army. They waved American flags alongside the red Albanian banner imprinted with a black, double-headed eagle.

Many dressed in traditional costumes and played trumpets and drums, and an ethnic Albanian couple named their newborn daughter Pavarsie — Albanian for "independence."

"This is the happiest day in my life," said Mehdi Shehu, 68. "Now we're free and we can celebrate without fear."

By contrast, police in the Serbian capital Belgrade fired tear gas and rubber bullets in skirmishes with protesters who opposed the declaration. Groups of masked thugs ran through downtown Belgrade smashing windows and ransacking tobacco stands. At least 30 people were injured, about half of them police officers, hospital officials said.

Hundreds of protesters rallied outside the U.S. Embassy in Belgrade. Others broke windows at McDonald's restaurants and at the embassy of Slovenia — which holds the European Union's rotating presidency. Later in the evening, police kept a group of protesters from approaching the Albanian embassy.

Kosovo had formally remained a part of Serbia even though it has been administered by the U.N. and NATO since 1999, when NATO airstrikes ended former Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic's crackdown on ethnic Albanian separatists.

Ninety percent of Kosovo's 2 million people are ethnic Albanian — most of them secular Muslims — and they see no reason to stay joined to the rest of Christian Orthodox Serbia.

The European Union and NATO, mindful of the Balkans' turbulent past, appealed for restraint and warned that the international community would not tolerate violence.

President Bush said the United States "will continue to work with our allies to the very best we can to make sure there's no violence."

"We are heartened by the fact that the Kosovo government has clearly proclaimed its willingness and its desire to support Serbian rights in Kosovo," Bush said while on a visit to Africa. "We also believe it's in Serbia's interest to be aligned with Europe and the Serbian people can know that they have a friend in America."

Underscoring fears of renewed unrest, an explosion lightly damaged a U.N. building housing a courthouse and a jail in Kosovo's tense north, home to most of its roughly 100,000 minority Serbs. No one was injured. An unexploded grenade was found near a motel that houses EU officials.

In the ethnically divided northern city of Kosovska Mitrovica, Serbs vowed never to let Kosovo go.

"The Albanians can celebrate all they want, but this stillborn baby of theirs will never be an independent country as long as we Serbs are here and alive," said Djordje Jovanovic.

Kosovo is still protected by 16,000 NATO-led peacekeepers, and the alliance boosted its patrols over the weekend in hopes of discouraging violence. International police, meanwhile, deployed to back up local forces in the tense north.

Sunday's declaration was carefully orchestrated with the U.S. and key European powers, and Kosovo was counting on international recognition that could come as early as Monday, when EU foreign ministers meet in Brussels, Belgium.

But by sidestepping the U.N. and appealing directly to the U.S. and other nations for recognition, Kosovo's independence set up a showdown with Serbia — outraged at the imminent loss of its territory — and Russia, which warned that it would set a dangerous precedent for separatist groups worldwide.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has argued that independence without U.N. approval would set a dangerous precedent for "frozen conflicts" across the former Soviet Union, where separatists in Chechnya and Georgia are agitating for independence.

Serbia's government ruled out a military response as part of a secret "action plan" drafted earlier this week, but warned that it would downgrade relations with any foreign government that recognizes Kosovo's independence.

Meanwhile, Serbia's government minister for Kosovo, Slobodan Samardzic, said Serbia would increase its presence in the roughly 15 percent of Kosovo that is Serb-controlled in an apparent attempt to partition the province.

Kosovo President Fatmir Sejdiu sought to allay Serbs' concerns, telling them: "I understand today is a fearful day for you all, but your rights and your property will be protected today as it will be always."

At a special session of parliament boycotted by 10 minority Serb lawmakers and televised live nationwide, sustained applause erupted after the rest of the chamber unanimously adopted the declaration of independence, which was scripted on parchment.

They also unveiled a new national crest and a flag: a bright blue banner featuring a golden map of Kosovo and six stars, one for each of its main ethnic groups. Few of the new flags were seen Sunday on Kosovo's streets, where the old Albanian banner still dominated.

"We, the democratically elected leaders of our people, hereby declare Kosovo to be an independent and sovereign state," the proclamation read.

"From today onwards, Kosovo is proud, independent and free," said Prime Minister Hashim Thaci, a former KLA leader. "We never lost faith in the dream that one day we would stand among the free nations of the world, and today we do."

"Our hopes have never been higher," he said. "Dreams are infinite, our challenges loom large, but nothing can deter us from moving forward to the greatness that history has reserved for us."

Like Sejdiu, Thaci reached out to ordinary Serbs, but he had stern words for the Serbian government.

"Kosovo will never be ruled by Belgrade again," he warned.

Thaci also signed 192 separate letters to nations around the world — including Serbia — asking them to recognize Kosovo as a state.

Kosovo's leaders signed their names on a giant iron sculpture spelling out "NEWBORN" before heading to a sports hall for a performance of Beethoven's "Ode to Joy" by the Kosovo Philharmonic Orchestra.

International officials warned their staff to stay indoors and avoid "happy fire" as some revelers shot handguns into the air.

"I feel stronger," said Ymer Govori, 36, carrying his daughter on his shoulders to celebrations downtown. "I have my own state and my own post code," he said, "and it won't say Serbia any longer."


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g1zMRGritCtusBjGtSPaGxk1ef-wD8USBI2G0

[open mind]

shitty.

[open mind]

Good stuff.

I can see another war coming but that's the Balkans for you.

why do you say that?

[mattybobviously]

Should be an interesting next few days.

[open mind]

the serbians should be angry cause they're in the right for the most part.

genocide? 10,000 people dead isn't good but it's certainly not genocide and it didn't happen entirely without reason.
http://members.tripod.com/Balkania/resources/terrorism/kla-drugs.html

[Lueda Alia]

Serbian's are very angry about this and aren't prepared to let it go. If they didn't fear US wrath they'd be invading tomorrow.

Kosovan's are bitter about the genocide and will want revenge. Knowing they have American backing means they can do as they please. See Israel.
It's Kosovars, by the way.

I very much doubt Kosovo will do anything like that. Kosovars have wanted independence for God knows how long, and (as an Albanian) I am very happy that they finally got it. I couldn't care less about what Serbia wants. After what they did 10 years ago, they have absolutely no right to tell these people what to do.

[Lueda Alia]

shitty.
Haha seriously? What the hell?

[open mind]

Haha seriously? What the hell?

yeah.
i think i've got some decent reasons for not liking the idea of an independent kosovo.

[Love As Arson]

If the people desire to have an independent state, then I support them. It may or may not cause a conflict, however, both American and European powers could certainly help mitigate any problems that may arise.

[Lueda Alia]

yeah.
i think i've got some decent reasons for not liking the idea of an independent kosovo.
Yeah, as someone that actually lived through all that (when all the Kosovars came to Albania), I also think I have some pretty great reasons as to why the people there deserve independence.

[Lueda Alia]

Apologies, what a strange one.
Haha yeah. I think foreign people just call them "Kosovo Albanians." Either works, I suppose.

You don't think there will be border disputes about what is Kosovo and what is Serbia? And although "morally" Serbia don't have a leg to stand on I can't see them taking this lying down.
I'm sure it's not going to be easy, but I don't think Serbia will be able to do anything in the end. If they do anything like what happened 10 years ago, they will suffer the consequences, considering that pretty much all Western countries are supporting Kosovo in this.

I think it would be a very dumb move, but you never know. I just don't want to see another war.

[open mind]

Yeah, as someone that actually lived through all that (when all the Kosovars came to Albania), I also think I have some pretty great reasons as to why the people there deserve independence.

i'm willing to give my reasons if you give yours.

[Lueda Alia]

i'm willing to give my reasons if you give yours.
Sure, but before you do that, tell me what other solution is there besides this? You really think any Kosovar wants to live under Serbia's rule after what happened? Especially after they (Serbs) tried to wipe out each and everyone of them?

[Lueda Alia]

I think the chance of Serbian government action is unlikely but the chance of loose nationalist violence against the Kosovan's on the borders and in Prisitina is quite likely. I can see some car bombings, assasinations of kosovan politicians and kidnappings from guerilla gangs.
I'm sure something horrible along those lines is going to happen. It's inevitable. I do hope that Serbs get over it eventually, though.

[open mind]

Sure, but before you do that, tell me what other solution is there besides this? You really think any Kosovar wants to live under Serbia's rule after what happened? Especially after they (Serbs) tried to wipe out each and everyone of them?

the serbs did not try to wipe out each and everyone of the albanians, if that was the goal the death toll would have been alot higher then the 10,000 or so estimated to have died.
the serbian government didn't handle things in the best way, but they didn't act out over something as trivial as racism. kosovars shouldn't have turned to drug and weapons smuggling to fund thier war and terrorism network after all.

[Lueda Alia]

the serbs did not try to wipe out each and everyone of the albanians, if that was the goal the death toll would have been alot higher then the 10,000 or so estimated to have died.
the serbian government didn't handle things in the best way, but they didn't act out over something as trivial as racism. kosovars shouldn't have turned to drug and weapons smuggling to fund thier war and terrorism network after all.
Oh, I see. So because they chose that route to fight the Serbs, it's OK that thousands of innocent people died? Please.

How do you know the Serbs didn't try to wipe out everyone? Kosovo's population was only 2 million, or somewhere around that. So even if the death toll was only 10k, it's a high number considering that the population wasn't that even big to begin with.

Albanians and Serbs do not like each other. They haven't liked each other for God knows how long, so for you to say that it wasn't because of racism is wrong. If that wasn't the case, I don't think they would have gone after all the innocent people. They wouldn't have gone to house after house to murder innocent families. But I guess it's the Kosovars' fault, eh?

It's simply amusing to me that anyone could possibly think that Kosovo doesn't deserve Independence. Man, I would like to see how Quebec would react if we decided to invade them. I have a feeling they would want to separate more than they already do.

Look into Kosovo's history, especially people's rights there as Albanians. Once you do that, come tell me that they don't deserve Independence.

[Lueda Alia]

I think the chance of Serbian government action is unlikely but the chance of loose nationalist violence against the Kosovan's on the borders and in Prisitina is quite likely. I can see some car bombings, assasinations of kosovan politicians and kidnappings from guerilla gangs.
I guess it has already started:

Ethnic Albanians partied in the streets of the Kosovo capital Pristina, and in Tirana in neighboring Albania, but in Belgrade up to 2,000 angry Serbs converged on the U.S. embassy, hurling stones, smashing windows and lighting firecrackers.

article (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/080217/world/international_kosovo_serbia_dc)

[open mind]

Oh, I see. So because they chose that route to fight the Serbs, it's OK that thousands of innocent people died? Please.

How do you know the Serbs didn't try to wipe out everyone? Kosovo's population was only 2 million, or somewhere around that. So even if the death toll was only 10k, it's a high number considering that the population wasn't that even big to begin with.

Albanians and Serbs do not like each other. They haven't liked each other for God knows how long, so for you to say that it wasn't because of racism is wrong. If that wasn't the case, I don't think they would have gone after all the innocent people. They wouldn't have gone to house after house to murder innocent families. But I guess it's the Kosovars' fault, eh?

It's simply amusing to me that anyone could possibly think that Kosovo doesn't deserve Independence. Man, I would like to see how Quebec would react if we decided to invade them. I have a feeling they would want to separate more than they already do.

Look into Kosovo's history, especially people's rights there as Albanians. Once you do that, come tell me that they don't deserve Independence.

albanians were using terrorism to fight for independence...........talk about hypocrisy. how many have been confirmed as innocent?
because the albanians take up like 97% of the population in kosovo? it's not like serbs would have had a hard time finding albanians to kill.
please back these claims of all these innocents being killed with something.
haha.......you can't invade your own country. kosovo was a part of serbia, and still should be in my view.
being that i'm the only one backing my statements up with any sources up to this point it's kind of funny that your telling me to research this.

[Lueda Alia]

albanians were using terrorism to fight for independence...........talk about hypocrisy. how many have been confirmed as innocent?
because the albanians take up like 97% of the population in kosovo? it's not like serbs would have had a hard time finding albanians to kill.
please back these claims of all these innocents being killed with something.
haha.......you can't invade your own country. kosovo was a part of serbia, and still should be in my view.
being that i'm the only one backing my statements up with any sources up to this point it's kind of funny that your telling me to research this.
Wait, what? How many have been confirmed as innocent? Let me see: the brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers of all the people I have met who were killed during the war for absolutely no reason, as they were not part of the "terrorist group," (keep in mind that a terrorist - in your opinion - is also seen as a freedom fighter on the other side). I have friends here who have lost relatives when they all tried to escape. That's how I know they were innocent. How do you know they were not? Or were all 10,000 people "terrorists"?

Are you waiting for me to find you an article? Because most articles out there will tell you that civilians were killed, so I'm not sure what you're looking for?

How exactly are you backing up your statements? Oh, you found some articles online? Well, I'm pretty sure I can find you thousands of articles written by people that support Kosovo. Where would that take us, though?

You still haven't told me about your "soultion" to this problem, since you don't believe that Kosovo deserves independence. Also, I asked you to look things up because you would find out that Kosovars didn't have nearly as many rights as they should have. If Serbia really respected the Albanians in Kosovo, then they would have treated them the same way we treat Frenchies here in Canada. Hell, we treat them better than ourselves just because we really want them to be a part of Canada. The same could not be said about the situation in the Balkan.

[Lueda Alia]

Am I right to assume that you also opposed the independence of Bosnia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Slovenia, etc..? If not, then how is this any different?

[Love As Arson]

albanians were using terrorism to fight for independence...........talk about hypocrisy.
Hmm:

I'm of course opposed to terror, any rational person is, but I think that if we're serious about the question of terror and serious about the question of violence we have to recognize that it is a tactical and hence moral matter, incidentally tactical issues are basically moral issues, they have to do with human consequences. And if we're interested in let's say diminishing the amount of violence in the world it's at least arguable and sometimes true that a terroristic act does diminish the amount of violence in the world hence a person who is opposed to violence will not be opposed to that terroristic act.

[open mind]

Wait, what? How many have been confirmed as innocent? Let me see: the brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers of all the people I have met who were killed during the war for absolutely no reason, as they were not part of the "terrorist group," (keep in mind that a terrorist - in your opinion - is also seen as a freedom fighter on the other side). I have friends here who have lost relatives when they all tried to escape. That's how I know they were innocent. How do you know they were not? Or were all 10,000 people "terrorists"?

Are you waiting for me to find you an article? Because most articles out there will tell you that civilians were killed, so I'm not sure what you're looking for?

How exactly are you backing up your statements? Oh, you found some articles online? Well, I'm pretty sure I can find you thousands of articles written by people that support Kosovo. Where would that take us, though?

You still haven't told me about your "soultion" to this problem, since you don't believe that Kosovo deserves independence. Also, I asked you to look things up because you would find out that Kosovars didn't have nearly as many rights as they should have. If Serbia really respected the Albanians in Kosovo, then they would have treated them the same way we treat Frenchies here in Canada. Hell, we treat them better than ourselves just because we really want them to be a part of Canada. The same could not be said about the situation in the Balkan.

i don't know, i thought you might since your acting like such an authority on the subject.
civilians were killed on both sides. since you believe the serbs were trying to wipe out all the albanians i'd like to see something that backs that assertion.
articles by respected journalists citing established facts are not the same as random people saying what they feel.
the country should stay together, both groups are guilty of poor behavior (why is it that the albanians behavior is completely ok while the serbs is unforgivable?). breaking into 2 countries won't improve anything, and just sets up a much larger scale conflict. i also believe the kosovars will end up with an incredibly corrupt government that won't improve things for the albanians.
by the way eda i like you, and i hope i haven't offended you with this topic. if i have i apologize.

[open mind]

Am I right to assume that you also opposed the independence of Bosnia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Slovenia, etc..? If not, then how is this any different?

i don't know as i haven't really looked into those countries revolutions.

[open mind]

Hmm:

Quote:
I'm of course opposed to terror, any rational person is, but I think that if we're serious about the question of terror and serious about the question of violence we have to recognize that it is a tactical and hence moral matter, incidentally tactical issues are basically moral issues, they have to do with human consequences. And if we're interested in let's say diminishing the amount of violence in the world it's at least arguable and sometimes true that a terroristic act does diminish the amount of violence in the world hence a person who is opposed to violence will not be opposed to that terroristic act.

i think you missed my point. it's very hypocritical to cry foul over innocent people's death when you yourself are doing the same thing through acts of terror.....and in fact started the conflict.

[Lueda Alia]

i don't know, i thought you might since your acting like such an authority on the subject.
civilians were killed on both sides. since you believe the serbs were trying to wipe out all the albanians i'd like to see something that backs that assertion.
articles by respected journalists citing established facts are not the same as random people saying what they feel.
the country should stay together, both groups are guilty of poor behavior (why is it that the albanians behavior is completely ok while the serbs is unforgivable?). breaking into 2 countries won't improve anything, and just sets up a much larger scale conflict. i also believe the kosovars will end up with an incredibly corrupt government that won't improve things for the albanians.
by the way eda i like you, and i hope i haven't offended you with this topic. if i have i apologize.
The only reason that Kosovo was never able to develop is because Serbia never allowed them to.

As I said, I can find journalists that say the opposite of what they say. So what does that even matter? I'm aware that personal experience can't really be used when you want to really prove something; however, considering that every article out there has a bias, it is pointless to try and back up my thoughts with them. Of course the people I met had a bias too, but what reason did my peers (fellow 11 year olds at the time) have to lie about what had happened to them? Am I supposed to simply forget my personal experience during the war? I feel I have the upper hand in the argument simply because I lived through what happened, while many of those journalists (on either side) did not.

I really want to know what you think would be the best solution to this. Do you really think that things would work out if Serbia ruled Kosovo again? Because I can't see how anyone can believe that is possible in any way.

[Lueda Alia]

i don't know as i haven't really looked into those countries revolutions.
Well, they declared independence from Serbia too, and I don't see how Kosovo's case is any different.

[open mind]

The only reason that Kosovo was never able to develop is because Serbia never allowed them to.

As I said, I can find journalists that say the opposite of what they say. So what does that even matter? I'm aware that personal experience can't really be used when you want to really prove something; however, considering that every article out there has a bias, it is pointless to try and back up my thoughts with them. Of course the people I met had a bias too, but what reason did my peers (fellow 11 year olds at the time) have to lie about what had happened to them? Am I supposed to simply forget my personal experience during the war? I feel I have the upper hand in the argument simply because I lived through what happened, while many of those journalists (on either side) did not.

I really want to know what you think would be the best solution to this. Do you really think that things would work out if Serbia ruled Kosovo again? Because I can't see how anyone can believe that is possible in any way.

kosovo was serbia, so i don't get why that would be something they wanted....the entire region has been fucked up for quite awhile.
so you can find articles that say there's no link between the independence movement and drug and weapons smuggling? or that albanians didn't kill innocent people?
i get that living through the conflict gives you a certain perspective of things, but i have to think that that has led to some very one sided views on the situation.
yes, at this point i think that serbia should be in control of it's land and that would include kosovo.

[open mind]

Well, they declared independence from Serbia too, and I don't see how Kosovo's case is any different.

i'll have to take some time to research that before i can form a real opinion.
we'll either have to agree to disagree on this issue or continue this debate tomorrow cause i've gotta go.

[Lueda Alia]

yes, at this point i think that serbia should be in control of it's land and that would include kosovo.
Is that even a realistic solution?

If Quebec decided to separate because we treat them like crap, do you think anyone would be willing to go up there and fight just to keep the province as part of Canada (and kill innocents while doing so)? Better yet, do you think anyone would even dare to ask them to be a part of this country anymore?

All Serbia cares about is the land. They couldn't care less about the people and they have proved that time and time again. Albanians are not their people.

[selftitled85]

this should have happened years ago.

and open mind...the two sections are relatively different societies with an extremely volatile past to put it lightly. the best bet for both of them is a clean break. hopefully the leaders for both sides can put their problems to the side and be able to have amicable relations in the future. (although it is highly unlikely in the short term)

[Lueda Alia]

I'm reading articles on Yahoo! (and other sites) constantly, and some comments by Serbs really boggle my mind:

"This declaration is nonsense," said a 40-year-old man who gave only his first name, Dragan. "This is America building a Muslim state here. I feel as if someone broke into my house and robbed me."

article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080218/ap_on_re_eu/kosovo_serbs)

This, among other reasons, is why they should never be in charge of Kosovo. They have no idea what their neighbours are like, and their comments are simply laughable. I can't believe how many of them believe that Albanians are "Islamic" terrorists. If anyone knows anything about Albanians, the first thing they would know is that Albanians couldn't care less about religions. People claim to be "Muslims" or "Christians" just to simply belong to a religion, and nothing else. No one really practices religion seriously. Everyone celebrates every religious event - be it Muslim, Christian, etc.. because it's nice. That's one of the best things about my people: they are some of the most tolerant people regarding other religions that I have ever met. Of course there will be extremists, just like in any other country. However, most people will never make a negative comment about other religions.

So the Serbs that truly believe Albanians are "Islamic terrorists," should go take a few lessons and get informed because their ignorance is appalling.

If anyone has any doubts about what I'm saying, then please feel free to look this up because you will find out that my statements are backed not only by personal experience as an Albanian, but by facts as well.

[Love As Arson]

i think you missed my point. it's very hypocritical to cry foul over innocent people's death when you yourself are doing the same thing through acts of terror.....and in fact started the conflict.
I disagree. There is a difference between the violence of the oppressed and the violence of the oppressor. The former is justified.

As to the topic at hand, the US and EU are likely to use this development in order to provide a counter-balance to Russian influence in the region.

[open mind]

Is that even a realistic solution?

If Quebec decided to separate because we treat them like crap, do you think anyone would be willing to go up there and fight just to keep the province as part of Canada (and kill innocents while doing so)? Better yet, do you think anyone would even dare to ask them to be a part of this country anymore?

All Serbia cares about is the land. They couldn't care less about the people and they have proved that time and time again. Albanians are not their people.

well you are talking about canada.....so no.
if say native alaskans decided to secede from the u.s., armed themselves with money obtained by supplying let's say a quarter of the worlds heroin, and sideline of arms smuggling, then proceded to commit acts of terror in the name of independence because of past and ongoing mistreatment the u.s. government would certainly come in and crack alot of heads.

[open mind]

I'm reading articles on Yahoo! (and other sites) constantly, and some comments by Serbs really boggle my mind:



article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080218/ap_on_re_eu/kosovo_serbs)

This, among other reasons, is why they should never be in charge of Kosovo. They have no idea what their neighbours are like, and their comments are simply laughable. I can't believe how many of them believe that Albanians are "Islamic" terrorists. If anyone knows anything about Albanians, the first thing they would know is that Albanians couldn't care less about religions. People claim to be "Muslims" or "Christians" just to simply belong to a religion, and nothing else. No one really practices religion seriously. Everyone celebrates every religious event - be it Muslim, Christian, etc.. because it's nice. That's one of the best things about my people: they are some of the most tolerant people regarding other religions that I have ever met. Of course there will be extremists, just like in any other country. However, most people will never make a negative comment about other religions.

So the Serbs that truly believe Albanians are "Islamic terrorists," should go take a few lessons and get informed because their ignorance is appalling.

If anyone has any doubts about what I'm saying, then please feel free to look this up because you will find out that my statements are backed not only by personal experience as an Albanian, but by facts as well.

both sides have shown a great deal of intolerance for eachother. the serbs destroyed hundreds of mosques during the last conflict, and the albanians destroyed hundreds of churches after nato started it's bombing.

[open mind]

I disagree. There is a difference between the violence of the oppressed and the violence of the oppressor. The former is justified.

As to the topic at hand, the US and EU are likely to use this development in order to provide a counter-balance to Russian influence in the region.

what do you do when the oppressed become the oppressors (israel comes to mind)? subscribing to your line of reasoning just insures an endless cycle of violence in my mind.

[Lueda Alia]

both sides have shown a great deal of intolerance for eachother. the serbs destroyed hundreds of mosques during the last conflict, and the albanians destroyed hundreds of churches after nato started it's bombing.
That is exactly why Serbia should not control Kosovo. The people will never get along, and I especially don't blame Kosovars for not wanting to be under Serbia's rule any longer.

As I said, if Quebec were to vote in favor of separation, we would allow them to have their own country. Why can't Serbia do the same with Kosovo?

And by the way, Kosovo was never a part of Serbia originally. So, since borders have changed quite often throughout history, I don't see why this is any different.

[Lueda Alia]

well you are talking about canada.....so no.
if say native alaskans decided to secede from the u.s., armed themselves with money obtained by supplying let's say a quarter of the worlds heroin, and sideline of arms smuggling, then proceded to commit acts of terror in the name of independence because of past and ongoing mistreatment the u.s. government would certainly come in and crack alot of heads.
Serbia has a history of uh, you know, "cracking a lot of heads," but I guess it's still the fault of the Kosovars, Bosnians, etc.

Think about it - if Serbia really treated Kosovo fairly - like we treat Quebec - why would Kosovars want independence? They wouldn't. The reason they want to separate is because they have been mistreated under Serbia's rule. It's really that simple.

[Love As Arson]

what do you do when the oppressed become the oppressors (israel comes to mind)? subscribing to your line of reasoning just insures an endless cycle of violence in my mind.
We can objectively assess whether or not this is the case, and decide whether or not their violence is justified. The comparison to Israel, however, fails, since it began as an imperialistic outpost for the west.

[open mind]

Serbia has a history of uh, you know, "cracking a lot of heads," but I guess it's still the fault of the Kosovars, Bosnians, etc.

Think about it - if Serbia really treated Kosovo fairly - like we treat Quebec - why would Kosovars want independence? They wouldn't. The reason they want to separate is because they have been mistreated under Serbia's rule. It's really that simple.

the serbs have cracked heads sure, what else would you expect a government to do when faced with open revolt, acts of terror, and massive drug smuggling organizations? i guess my main point isn't so much that kosovo should remain a part of serbia but that things aren't nearly so black and white as you and most other people seem to believe them to be and that i don't see anyone really coming out ahead in this besides heroin smugglers.
a revived sense of nationalism is often enough to get a population to seek independence even if it's against the general populations best interest.

[open mind]

We can objectively assess whether or not this is the case, and decide whether or not their violence is justified. The comparison to Israel, however, fails, since it began as an imperialistic outpost for the west.

we can objectively assess violent conflicts, but the reality is we just about never do. those seeking to gain power and/or money from them see to that.
i probably should have initially pointed to this regions own history instead of israel since every ethnic group has at one point been both the oppressed and oppressors.

[saysmydoctor]

the serbs have cracked heads sure, what else would you expect a government to do when faced with open revolt, acts of terror, and massive drug smuggling organizations? i guess my main point isn't so much that kosovo should remain a part of serbia but that things aren't nearly so black and white as you and most other people seem to believe them to be and that i don't see anyone really coming out ahead in this besides heroin smugglers.
a revived sense of nationalism is often enough to get a population to seek independence even if it's against the general populations best interest.
Do you understand the region? Because they are certainly as a black and white as they appear. Kosovo is majority ethnic Albanian. Serbia is mostly Serbs who suppress these Albanians.

[Lueda Alia]

the serbs have cracked heads sure, what else would you expect a government to do when faced with open revolt, acts of terror, and massive drug smuggling organizations? i guess my main point isn't so much that kosovo should remain a part of serbia but that things aren't nearly so black and white as you and most other people seem to believe them to be and that i don't see anyone really coming out ahead in this besides heroin smugglers.
a revived sense of nationalism is often enough to get a population to seek independence even if it's against the general populations best interest.
First off, I'm not like other people, considering that I am from that region and I have lived through the whole ordeal.

Secondly, the part in bold is simply absurd. I don't even know what to say, really. I mean, you keep saying how I see things in black and white and that I am biased, yet all you do is believe the Serbian propaganda. What is next? Let me guess, Kosovars are Islamics that will turn the region into an Al-Qaeda haven? Because that's one of the BS reasons that Serbs give for wanting to hang on to Kosovo - besides the "fact" that all Kosovars do is smuggle drugs, arms, etc.

Oh, and I would like to point out that I don't expect anything different from the Serbs. They have proved throughout history that they believe military action is the solution to everything. Now, what I would expect from a decent and democratic nation is giving a region the right to choose. Do you see the difference there?

[Lueda Alia]

Do you understand the region?
It doesn't seem like it to me.

[open mind]

Do you understand the region? Because they are certainly as a black and white as they appear. Kosovo is majority ethnic Albanian. Serbia is mostly Serbs who suppress these Albanians.

thank you for proving my point about people seeing this conflict in black and white.

[open mind]

First off, I'm not like other people, considering that I am from that region and I have lived through the whole ordeal.

Secondly, the part in bold is simply absurd. I don't even know what to say, really. I mean, you keep saying how I see things in black and white and that I am biased, yet all you do is believe the Serbian propaganda. What is next? Let me guess, Kosovars are Islamics that will turn the region into an Al-Qaeda haven? Because that's one of the BS reasons that Serbs give for wanting to hang on to Kosovo - besides the "fact" that all Kosovars do is smuggle drugs, arms, etc.

Oh, and I would like to point out that I don't expect anything different from the Serbs. They have proved throughout history that they believe military action is the solution to everything. Now, what I would expect from a decent and democratic nation is giving a region the right to choose. Do you see the difference there?

your just like other people, if not more so.
your comments throughout this thread show that.......albanians are the most tolerant people in the world......nevermind the burning of hundreds of churches after nato started bombing....the serbs wanted to completely wipe out the albanians......so what if the reality is that the serbs killed a incredibly small percentage of the albanian populace?........every negative aspect i've pointed to about the kosovar independence movement is just serbian propaganda......it doesn't matter that it's various respected international agencies and media outlets who've reported on them.
why is it absurd to say heroin smugglers stand to gain the most from this when the heroin trade has exploded in kosovo since nato became involved in the region? it stands to reason that when any given country is unstable and/or rife with corruption criminals stand to gain the most from it.
it's not just a serbian thing to want to keep a country together. there is just about always some pretty horrible conflict when a large part of a nation tries to secede....so by your definition there are very few decent and democratic nations in existence.
i'm not even going to bother with responding to the rest of your post as it's just more assumptions (but for the record i don't believe kosovo is going to become a terrorist haven or that all kosovars are involved in the drug and arms trades) and completely one sided bias without anything to back it.

[ghostyouare]

Serbia has a history of uh, you know, "cracking a lot of heads," but I guess it's still the fault of the Kosovars, Bosnians, etc.

Think about it - if Serbia really treated Kosovo fairly - like we treat Quebec - why would Kosovars want independence? They wouldn't. The reason they want to separate is because they have been mistreated under Serbia's rule. It's really that simple.
The moors treated the spanish fairly but they still wanted freedom. Just putting that out there.

[saysmydoctor]

thank you for proving my point about people seeing this conflict in black and white.
Because it is that simple, these Albanians are the Kurds of the Balkans. Study up on the region. Stop going by your 'powder keg' high school curriculum.

[ghostyouare]

Because it is that simple, these Albanians are the Kurds of the Balkans. Study up on the region. Stop going by your 'powder keg' high school curriculum.
I think he lived in russia for 5 years and from the talks ive had with him hes seems pretty fluent in the history, whereas you are 17, found out about a place called serbia 3 weeks ago and probably have read 3 to 5 news article on the subject matter.

[Lueda Alia]

your just like other people, if not more so.
your comments throughout this thread show that.......albanians are the most tolerant people in the world......

Concerning religion, yes they are very tolerant. If you are so informed and have all the facts, then you should know that. Go look it up, or I could always provide you links?

I actually think it's funny that you think I'm just like other people when I know the region and the people in that area better than you ever will. That's like telling an Iraqi that you know how the war in Iraq affects him/her better than he/she does. That is just absurd.

nevermind the burning of hundreds of churches after nato started bombing....the serbs wanted to completely wipe out the albanians......so what if the reality is that the serbs killed a incredibly small percentage of the albanian populace?

Wow. Seriously? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? So what that Albanians were killed? Well, that's why they want freedom, because they have been getting killed. What kind of question is that?

I don't know if I even want to respond to you anymore after that comment. What happened to having some regard for human life?

Oh and, 10,000 is not a small percentage of the population, when the whole population to begin with is only 2 million. But even if the number was only 100, then that is a pretty big number as well. That many people don't deserve to die.

why is it absurd to say heroin smugglers stand to gain the most from this when the heroin trade has exploded in kosovo since nato became involved in the region? it stands to reason that when any given country is unstable and/or rife with corruption criminals stand to gain the most from it.

But that is just not a good enough reason to not give the rest of the population the freedom that they want.

it's not just a serbian thing to want to keep a country together. there is just about always some pretty horrible conflict when a large part of a nation tries to secede....so by your definition there are very few decent and democratic nations in existence.

I said it's a Serbian thing to send in troops and use military force more often than they should.

Just because some Kosovars may have rebelled and done messed up things, that doesn't mean that the Serbian government had the right to go and kill other innocent people. That is not right, and if you can't agree with that, then I don't really have anything else to say.

i'm not even going to bother with responding to the rest of your post as it's just more assumptions (but for the record i don't believe kosovo is going to become a terrorist haven or that all kosovars are involved in the drug and arms trades) and completely one sided bias without anything to back it.
What do I need to back up, exactly? I am telling you what I have lived through, so I'm sorry that I have a bias? For you to completely ignore my experience in the region is really ridiculous, though.

I find it funny that you have a bias too though, unless your background is Serbian.

[Lueda Alia]

I think he lived in russia for 5 years and from the talks ive had with him hes seems pretty fluent in the history, whereas you are 17, found out about a place called serbia 3 weeks ago and probably have read 3 to 5 news article on the subject matter.
Living in Russia for 5 years does not equal knowledge when it comes to the Balkan.

[Lueda Alia]

The moors treated the spanish fairly but they still wanted freedom. Just putting that out there.
Sure, but that still doesn't change anything.

[Love As Arson]

we can objectively assess violent conflicts, but the reality is we just about never do. those seeking to gain power and/or money from them see to that.
Some do and some don't. We can personally assess it, and discern whether or not a group is worth supporting. In this case, I choose to support Kosovo's independence.

[saysmydoctor]

I think he lived in russia for 5 years and from the talks ive had with him hes seems pretty fluent in the history, whereas you are 17, found out about a place called serbia 3 weeks ago and probably have read 3 to 5 news article on the subject matter.
Let me show you a map first.

http://www.dunav.org.il/images/maps/map_yugoslavia.jpg

Notice that Russia doesn't even share a border with these states. Furthermore, the only former soviet blocs in that map are Hungrary and Romania, which with your clearly superior knowledge, you know aren't geographically considered part of the Balkans. So I'm not seeing why we should consider his knowledge more well-rounded than ours just cause he lived in Russia. If we were talking about the province of Chechnya (sp?) or Estonian-Lithuanian-Latvian-Russian relations or the Afghani occupation then maybe I would take his word for granted.

I actually didn't find out about Serbia three weeks ago and have actually done case studies on Balkan states for World History classes I've taken in the past. My age doesn't make me less knowledgeabe. Why don't you just stop talking, before I just continue ripping this new asshole? I mean clearly you totally ignored the powder keg remark probably because you don't know what it means.

[saysmydoctor]

Granted, Russia was heavily involved in Yugoslavia before the breakup, that was nearly 20 decades ago.

[open mind]

Because it is that simple, these Albanians are the Kurds of the Balkans. Study up on the region. Stop going by your 'powder keg' high school curriculum.

i'm sorry but it is not just that simple. the only way it's possible to consider it that simple would be to believe that the serbs are a group of people that oppress people for shits and giggles.....there are at least 2 sides to every story, completely ignoring one sides role in escalating a confilct is pure stupidity.

[open mind]

Concerning religion, yes they are very tolerant. If you are so informed and have all the facts, then you should know that. Go look it up, or I could always provide you links?

I actually think it's funny that you think I'm just like other people when I know the region and the people in that area better than you ever will. That's like telling an Iraqi that you know how the war in Iraq affects him/her better than he/she does. That is just absurd.



Wow. Seriously? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? So what that Albanians were killed? Well, that's why they want freedom, because they have been getting killed. What kind of question is that?

I don't know if I even want to respond to you anymore after that comment. What happened to having some regard for human life?

Oh and, 10,000 is not a small percentage of the population, when the whole population to begin with is only 2 million. But even if the number was only 100, then that is a pretty big number as well. That many people don't deserve to die.



But that is just not a good enough reason to not give the rest of the population the freedom that they want.



I said it's a Serbian thing to send in troops and use military force more often than they should.

Just because some Kosovars may have rebelled and done messed up things, that doesn't mean that the Serbian government had the right to go and kill other innocent people. That is not right, and if you can't agree with that, then I don't really have anything else to say.


What do I need to back up, exactly? I am telling you what I have lived through, so I'm sorry that I have a bias? For you to completely ignore my experience in the region is really ridiculous, though.

I find it funny that you have a bias too though, unless your background is Serbian.

i believe i've already provided a link or 2 on the burning of churches by kosovars after nato started bombing.......if i haven't it won't take more then a minute to find one.
http://www.crosswalk.com/1346552/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkgHkxIfgBc&mode=related&search=orthodox%20church
your just like other people in that you only look at one side of this conflict, up to this point in this discussion you haven't agreed that the kosovars did one thing wrong during the course of this conflict.
i have no idea what point your trying to get across here.....my point was you said something that was obviously untrue, and i called you on it. don't act like citing statistics automattically equals my having no respect for human life. do the math eda, 10,000 is in fact an incredibly small percentage of 2 million......you seem to think that i'm saying 10,000 is good, when all i'm really saying is it's not genocide.
i'll concede that point. i've already said that my main point isn't that kosovo shouldn't be independent, and that it's that people need to stop looking at this conflict so one sidedly.
i'll be the first to agree that the serbs have used excessive force in the past. but you shouldn't act like there was no justification to use any amount of force either. just about any government in existence is willing to put down a rebellion through use of force after all.
when did i say or even infer that it was right to kill innocent people? oh that's right i didn't.
please back up this statement "They have proved throughout history that they believe military action is the solution to everything." to my mind that's a pretty impossible statement to back up.
i have taken issue with some of your statements that aren't supported by facts (although i let some factual inaccuracies slide to). i have pointed out that your biased to an extreme when it comes to this topic. i don't quite see how that equates into my ignoring your experience.
how exactly am i biased? because i've pointed out that the kosovar independence movement isn't without it's share of very serious crimes? it's not like i haven't agreed that the serbs have done some very fucked up shit, if i'm so terribly biased would i do that?
nope, i'm not serbian. i'm half yu'pik, a quarter german, and a quarter ukranian.

here's a pretty good example of the oppressed becoming the oppressors dom.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/784740.stm

just for the hell of it i'll add this little bit to.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/KLA-drugs.html

type kosovo into this sites search bar for a whole host of articles on the media's coverage of the conflict that i think is pretty enlightening......it could all just be serbian propaganda though.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=13

[Lueda Alia]

i believe i've already provided a link or 2 on the burning of churches by kosovars after nato started bombing.......if i haven't it won't take more then a minute to find one.
http://www.crosswalk.com/1346552/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkgHkxIfgBc&mode=related&search=orthodox%20church (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkgHkxIfgBc&mode=related&search=orthodox%20church)
Here, I will counter attack those links with this (http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=1591&l=1) article.

A simple page on Wikipedia will tell you about my country's religion:

he majority of Albanians today are either atheists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheists) or agnostics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostics). According to an official US Government Report [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania#_note-0): "No reliable data were available on active participation in formal religious services, but estimates ranged from 25 to 40 percent.", leaving 60 to 75 percent of the population non-religious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-religious) (or, at least, not practicing a religion in public).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania#_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania#_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania#_note-3)

The country does not have a history of religious extremism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_extremism) and takes pride in the harmony that exists across religious traditions and practices. Religious pragmatism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism) continued as a distinctive trait of the society and interreligious marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interreligious_marriage) has been very common throughout the centuries, in some places even the rule. There is a strong unifying cultural identity, where Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) and Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) see themselves as Albanian before anything else. This has been solidified historically by the common experience of struggling to protect their culture in the face of various outside conquerors.
From here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania). You will find the same type of information on your government's websites, as well.

So, if Kosovars burned churches, it wasn't because they're intolerant of other religions. But either way they weren't the only ones that destroyed religious buildings.

your just like other people in that you only look at one side of this conflict, up to this point in this discussion you haven't agreed that the kosovars did one thing wrong during the course of this conflict.
I'm not like "other" people. I'm Albanian, and unlike other people, I have first hand experience on this situation. I have the right to think and feel the way I do because of what I have been through. Again, for you to completely ignore my experience is ridiculous.

i have no idea what point your trying to get across here.....my point was you said something that was obviously untrue, and i called you on it. don't act like citing statistics automattically equals my having no respect for human life. do the math eda, 10,000 is in fact an incredibly small percentage of 2 million......you seem to think that i'm saying 10,000 is good, when all i'm really saying is it's not genocide.
No, in reality you said this:

so what if the reality is that the serbs killed a incredibly small percentage of the albanian populace?........
So what?! Seriously, come on. How am I supposed to believe that you have any regards for the lives of Albanians when you make such a comment? Maybe you worded it poorly, I don't know, but that comment was way out of line. 10,000 is way too many.

Terrorists killed 3,000 people on September 11th, and look what happened as a result. Now, that's just such a small number considering that your country has a population of well over 300 million people. So what was the big deal? Why did people get so up in arms and ready to crush everyone that threatened them in the slightest way?

I really don't know how you expect Kosovars to feel after what happened there. I'm telling you (and you can look this up), they did not have equal rights before the war started. They were oppressed and their Albanian heritage was not recognized the way it should have been. Eduction, media, etc were not allowed to be in Albanian. They did not have the rights they should have. So what were they supposed to do? They couldn't have just sat down and let Serbia take away everything. They did what every other group of people would have done had they been in the same situation.

i'll concede that point. i've already said that my main point isn't that kosovo shouldn't be independent, and that it's that people need to stop looking at this conflict so one sidedly. I could have sworn you were trying to prove why you don't support the independence of Kosovo in the first few pages, but I guess it has turned to this now.

i'll be the first to agree that the serbs have used excessive force in the past. but you shouldn't act like there was no justification to use any amount of force either. just about any government in existence is willing to put down a rebellion through use of force after all. No, not every government would go and kill innocent people as well. There is a difference between handling a rebellion and killing innocents. 10,000 people were not rebelling.

when did i say or even infer that it was right to kill innocent people? oh that's right i didn't.
You said this:

so what if the reality is that the serbs killed a incredibly small percentage of the albanian populace?........
So while you may not have said that it is OK to kill innocents, you clearly implied that it's not that big of a deal that 10,000 Albanians died. Again, maybe you just used the wrong words, but what you said just sounds really bad.

Imagine if I said, "So what if Canadians killed 10,000 people in Alaska? That's a small number." How would you feel? Especially if some of your friends and family had been killed?

Anyone would feel outraged after reading such a comment. Even as an Albanian, I wouldn't say, "Well, so what that 10,000 Serbs died?" Ever.

please back up this statement "They have proved throughout history that they believe military action is the solution to everything." to my mind that's a pretty impossible statement to back up.
You said that you weren't that familiar (or something along those lines) with the war in Bosnia, Croatia, etc.

So here's an article to back up that claim that I made: C.I.A. Report on Bosnia Blames Serbs for 90% of the War Crimes (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE0DA163CF93AA 35750C0A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all)

i have taken issue with some of your statements that aren't supported by facts (although i let some factual inaccuracies slide to). i have pointed out that your biased to an extreme when it comes to this topic. i don't quite see how that equates into my ignoring your experience.
I already answered this.

how exactly am i biased? because i've pointed out that the kosovar independence movement isn't without it's share of very serious crimes? it's not like i haven't agreed that the serbs have done some very fucked up shit, if i'm so terribly biased would i do that?
nope, i'm not serbian. i'm half yu'pik, a quarter german, and a quarter ukranian.
I think you are biased because you refuse to see the other side of the story, too. You have posted many links that support only one side of the story and you have barely said anything about the horrible crimes that the Serbs have committed (although you are now saying that they have "done fucked up shit"). Also, all you keep doing telling me about how biased I am (even though I have a right to be), and how Serbs had the right to act the way they did.

I have never once said that Kosovars have not done bad things. They have, and while I'm not going to justify their crimes, I can understand why some people would resort to such measures when they are faced with the same situation that Kosovars were. Again, you can't expect a country's people to just sit and be controlled like puppets.

[open mind]

Here, I will counter attack those links with this (http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=1591&l=1) article.
A simple page on Wikipedia will tell you about my country's religion:
From here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania). You will find the same type of information on your government's websites, as well.
So, if Kosovars burned churches, it wasn't because they're intolerant of other religions. But either way they weren't the only ones that destroyed religious buildings. .
the majority of the population may not be very religious, but your not going to find many countries that have a worse record when it comes to recent religious intolerance. saying that burning churches isn't religious intolerance is completely ridiculous.
I'm not like "other" people. I'm Albanian, and unlike other people, I have first hand experience on this situation. I have the right to think and feel the way I do because of what I have been through. Again, for you to completely ignore my experience is ridiculous. .
my point is that being an albanian with first hand experience doesn't automattically mean that you don't have a very one sided view of the conflict........like most other people.
No, in reality you said this:
So what?! Seriously, come on. How am I supposed to believe that you have any regards for the lives of Albanians when you make such a comment? Maybe you worded it poorly, I don't know, but that comment was way out of line. 10,000 is way too many.
way to chop off the first half of what i was saying and totally ignore my point. of course 10,000 is way to many, but my point is that that number doesn't back up your assertion that the serbs tried to wipe out every albanian. i can see that when taken out of context that what i said could be taken as insensisitive and flippant though....so my bad.
Terrorists killed 3,000 people on September 11th, and look what happened as a result. Now, that's just such a small number considering that your country has a population of well over 300 million people. So what was the big deal? Why did people get so up in arms and ready to crush everyone that threatened them in the slightest way? .
i believe that the majority of actions that the u.s. has taken in response to 9/11 have been wrong, misguided, poorly planned, stupid, illegal, inhumane, or any other word that means fucked up. pointing to one horrible set of events to justify another doesn't make any sense to me.
I really don't know how you expect Kosovars to feel after what happened there. I'm telling you (and you can look this up), they did not have equal rights before the war started. They were oppressed and their Albanian heritage was not recognized the way it should have been. Eduction, media, etc were not allowed to be in Albanian. They did not have the rights they should have. So what were they supposed to do? They couldn't have just sat down and let Serbia take away everything. They did what every other group of people would have done had they been in the same situation. .
i don't expect them to be happy about what happened. i do sort of expect the kosovars to not do the exact same things the serbs were doing while screaming the serbs are so detestable for what they did. by your rationale the (very) small pockets of kosovo that have a serb majority should be able to break off from kosovo and become thier own independent states (something i doubt kosovo would allow). your one sided view of things pervades every part of this discussion. i don't believe that the serbs were right in treating kosovars the way they were before the war......but the treatment of serbs in kosovo during the 80's might have had something to do with the intolerance exhibited by the serbs.
I could have sworn you were trying to prove why you don't support the independence of Kosovo in the first few pages, but I guess it has turned to this now.
i don't support kosovo independence, but i can't really make a good argument for the country to stay together either. it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation from my point of view.
No, not every government would go and kill innocent people as well. There is a difference between handling a rebellion and killing innocents. 10,000 people were not rebelling.
yes, every government would kill innocent people putting down a rebellion. innocent people die in every large conflict. well over 10,000 people were rebelling all you have to do to find that out is to look at the numbers of the KLA (who themselves claimed to have 30,000 members).
You said this:
So while you may not have said that it is OK to kill innocents, you clearly implied that it's not that big of a deal that 10,000 Albanians died. Again, maybe you just used the wrong words, but what you said just sounds really bad.
Imagine if I said, "So what if Canadians killed 10,000 people in Alaska? That's a small number." How would you feel? Especially if some of your friends and family had been killed?
Anyone would feel outraged after reading such a comment. Even as an Albanian, I wouldn't say, "Well, so what that 10,000 Serbs died?" Ever.
the only way you can say i implied that is if you take what i said out of context and completely ignored the point i was making, which coincidentally you just did. i can still admit that i probably should have worded it better though.
You said that you weren't that familiar (or something along those lines) with the war in Bosnia, Croatia, etc.
So here's an article to back up that claim that I made: C.I.A. Report on Bosnia Blames Serbs for 90% of the War Crimes (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE0DA163CF93AA 35750C0A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all) .
yeah, serb conduct during that war was reprehensible but that does not prove a statement like "They have proved throughout history that they believe military action is the solution to everything."
I already answered this.
i don't think you have, you've admitted your bias, but you haven't admitted the factual inaccuracies of the statements you made that i took issue with.
I think you are biased because you refuse to see the other side of the story, too. You have posted many links that support only one side of the story and you have barely said anything about the horrible crimes that the Serbs have committed (although you are now saying that they have "done fucked up shit"). Also, all you keep doing telling me about how biased I am (even though I have a right to be), and how Serbs had the right to act the way they did.
how do i refuse to see the other side? i've agreed all along that the serbs have done wrong. everybody agrees that the serbs have done some very fucked up things so there hasn't been any need for me to post links about the atrocities they've committed. you have a right to be biased, but i don't believe it's smart right to use. i haven't said the serbs had the right to do what they did, i've merely pointed out the fact that thier actions weren't entirely without reason.
I have never once said that Kosovars have not done bad things. They have, and while I'm not going to justify their crimes, I can understand why some people would resort to such measures when they are faced with the same situation that Kosovars were. Again, you can't expect a country's people to just sit and be controlled like puppets.
no you didn't, but you did (along with everyone else) completely neglect to point out that they have. why is it that you can understand when kosovars kill innocents, commit acts of terror, and exhibit blatant religious intolerance but not when serbs do the same? if you say it's understandable for one side to do it, it logically has to be understandable for the other to do it to. otherwise your objections to serb behavior are just plain hypocritical.