View Full Version : This Response Will Be Interesting ..
Jason Tate
02/09/04, 02:59 PM
If you are interested at all in politics, I highly recommend picking up the latest issue of Time Magazine (Feb. 9th issue) and reading the article on the 'WMD' that we were led to believe (in other words, lied to ..) were in Iraq. A very good, educated, well researched, and un-biased piece. And to think, Bill Clinton got impeached for getting a blow job, are we kidding?
Lemieux66
02/09/04, 03:06 PM
Bill Clinton got impeached for lying about it under oath. To the american public...right to their faces.
Aren't you pissed for Bush lying about WMD? Blowjobs or WMD's they're both liars. Welcome to politics 101.
fballstar7431
02/09/04, 03:12 PM
I really hope Kerry is elected president...from what I've heard from him, I really love most of his stances, and I hate almost all of Bush's. The only thing he ever did well was picking us up from 9-11. He handled that particular situation well, but after that everything went downhill, and continues to do so.
Jason Tate
02/09/04, 03:12 PM
yes lieing about sex in the white house (which is wrong, im not sticking up for him, in light of the fact he's not the first president to do so .. JFK im looking your way), and sending 100s of american boys to DIE are the same thing. not to mention ruining relationships with our alies, launching an unprecidented, and illegal (check the constitution), preemptive attack on another country, cranking up some huge deficit, and have you seen the latest budget? you kidding me?! ... i'd say they are the same thing. welcome to common sense 101. did you even watch him talk on dateline last night? how can you even watch 5 minutes of that guy talk without exploding!?
Trainsaw
02/09/04, 03:14 PM
Vote for Kerry in '04, he was in roanoke today and i missed him :(
Trainsaw
02/09/04, 03:15 PM
yes lieing about sex in the white house, and sending 100 of american boys to DIE are the same thing. not to mention ruining relationships with our alies, launching an unprecidented, and illegal (check the constitution), preemptive attack on another country ... i'd say they are the same thing. welcome to common sense 101.
right on mr. tate
absolutsweetnes
02/09/04, 03:16 PM
giving a blow job didn't put our country in billions of dollars in debt.
giving a blow job didn't kill hundreds of american soliders
giving a blow job didn't kill thousands of iraqi citizens
i agree lying is lying. But we have to take into account the severity of the lie and its effects. Politicans run their mouth like none other. Our job as american citizens is to make them accountable for their actions. This time last year our country was polarized. Either you were for the war and supporting our president and therfore patriotic, or you were against the war and the president and therefore, antiamerican. many people went along with the president because he is our president no matter what the consquence was. But he lied! What kind of affect is that on our faith for the office and our government as whole? Our generation and our children's generation will have to deal with the awful consquences of one man's lie.
punkmovieguys
02/09/04, 03:20 PM
vote bush.
yes lieing about sex in the white house (which is wrong, im not sticking up for him, in light of the fact he's not the first president to do so .. JFK im looking your way), and sending 100s of american boys to DIE are the same thing. not to mention ruining relationships with our alies, launching an unprecidented, and illegal (check the constitution), preemptive attack on another country, cranking up some huge deficit, and have you seen the latest budget? you kidding me?! ... i'd say they are the same thing. welcome to common sense 101. did you even watch him talk on dateline last night? how can you even watch 5 minutes of that guy talk without exploding!?
530
kylekillspeople
02/09/04, 03:23 PM
ok, clinton didnt get impeached for getting a hummer in the oval office. he was impeached for pergery (lying under oath). Nobody is certain whether there were ever WMD in iraq, i beleive there were and they were moved into syria. do i think we should go into syria anmd start a war? no. the fact is that just because some crack pot former inspector voices his opinion doesnt make that opinion fact. now everybody sit back and wait for the entire story to come out. even if there were no wmd in iraq, it looks as if the CIA (for those of who who dont know, bush is NOT the head of the cia. dont try and blame him for this one.) lied to our president along with us. We'll get the full story soon enough, so keep the bush bashing to a minimum, its going to look pretty bad if he is in the clear on this one. do what the media should be doing, STAY IMPARTIAL.
Bushs administration deliberately played off of post 911 fear by skewing the facts and telling the public iraq had wmd he sold the war on that and now it turns out there are none. THat liar should be impeached, their whole administration should be taken out
toddisawesome
02/09/04, 03:34 PM
not that im any kind of political guru or anything, so i could be wrong, but i don't think Bush lied to us about the weapons of mass destruction. I think it was our CIA who just passed along false information to him. Again, i dont think the CIA lied to Bush either, i just think that they told him one thing, and they were wrong about it, and since he relayed this to the public, he's the one who takes the blame for it. Bush wasn't flying in any spy planes over Iraq, so it was impossible for him to know if there are or there arent WMD's there, he just has to rely on the information that was given to him. I'm not defending him or anything, he's made some pretty bad decisions, but i think you have to sort of just realize it wasn't him that made up this information. Also, like I said, i could be way off base here, and if I am let me know.
falloutncambria
02/09/04, 03:40 PM
all you democrats need to shut your mouths. i couldnt imagine anyone possibly handling the sptember 11 situation any better with more posie and patriotism than george w bush. name one better war time president than him other than possibly abe lincoln. to say this war is unjust is preposterous. tell me the world is not a better place without saddam hussein in power. do you realize the amount of destruction this man caused to the human race?? and he clearly has had it out for the united states of america for years upon years. he was a known friend and confidante of osama bin laden. our country is in good shape right now and i cant imagine it being nearly on the same level with another man as our president after the destruction of 9-11.
Jason Tate
02/09/04, 03:50 PM
all you democrats need to shut your mouths. i couldnt imagine anyone possibly handling the sptember 11 situation any better with more posie and patriotism than george w bush. name one better war time president than him other than possibly abe lincoln. to say this war is unjust is preposterous. tell me the world is not a better place without saddam hussein in power. do you realize the amount of destruction this man caused to the human race?? and he clearly has had it out for the united states of america for years upon years. he was a known friend and confidante of osama bin laden. our country is in good shape right now and i cant imagine it being nearly on the same level with another man as our president after the destruction of 9-11.
uh, how about he could of listened to the CIA reports that have come forward saying they had advanced knowledge of Sept 11th.
second, uh .. do more research, there are buckets of documents recently released that say Bin Laden and Hussein had NO sort of ties at all, there were documents seized from Hussein's little rabbit hole thing that verify this as well.
wakepunk
02/09/04, 03:56 PM
name one better war time president than him other than possibly abe lincoln.
Does the name Franklin D. Roosevelt ring a bell?
venus/bacchus
02/09/04, 04:12 PM
uh, how about he could of listened to the CIA reports that have come forward saying they had advanced knowledge of Sept 11th.
second, uh .. do more research, there are buckets of documents recently released that say Bin Laden and Hussein had NO sort of ties at all, there were documents seized from Hussein's little rabbit hole thing that verify this as well.
No one EVER said he had ties to bin Laden. They said he had ties to terrorists, which is completely true. Paying families who give their children to be killed by strapping a bomb to their body is supporting terrorism. It says "go kill yourself and kill others, your family will be ok." It seems like a snap decision in the Iraq in which there are poor families around every corner to make a little money.
I still don't get how you can be completely ok with purgery, just as long as it's about lying to the American public about the right thing.
Everyone knows they had information about 9/11. That was never a debate. The problem was, they get threats every day! They have to have some sort of way to decipher which ones are going to be serious threats and which are fakes. Of course they knew, I'd lose hope in our intelligence if they didn't. They made a decision based on the information they had to act or not act, and it just so happened that we actually got attacked this time. With so few terrorist attacks in America up until then, they wre a little more relaxed, but now, any threat they get is an extremely serious one.
I'll read that article, but I highly doubt it's "unbiased" if you posted it.
saintjoel
02/09/04, 04:15 PM
Does the name Franklin D. Roosevelt ring a bell?
haha
dumbutt
02/09/04, 04:26 PM
I think Woodrow Wilson did a good job also. He was just ahead of his time with the fourteen points.
The problem is that WMDs were the main reason Bush took us to war, and since he is unable to prove to us that there were in fact in Iraq, this war is a failure. I don't think people even care that Saddam Hussein is captured already. Also what was wrong with that speech was that it was the state of the union speech. Thats a hugely important speech, that he should have done more research on if he was going to deliver it to the nation.
phoenixdown
02/09/04, 04:26 PM
Does the name Franklin D. Roosevelt ring a bell?
The same one that created the national debt and banned tens of thousands of Jews from immigrating here to escape the Holocaust?
Screw Bush, but screw the Dem candidates more. I hope there's a good third party running this year...
ClockWontFlush
02/09/04, 04:26 PM
Are you serious? Bush didn't know that that information was bullshit? All he had to do was look at the source. Yes, it is that easy. I'm sorry cause I hate to get into political arguments but honestly, this guy lies to you consistently. Yeah, FDR bounced back 10 times better, hell, even Hoover bounced back better, than this deceiving man in office. The entire story is already out there, he lied so he could kill people unnecessarily. I got an idea, we're so much more powerful than everyone else, we'll use that to our advantage and attack anyone we don't agree with,yeah, that'll work. Let's face it, we're like the bully in school that no one liked, all we have is Britain. And another thing, everyone needs to quit badmouthing the French, there's nothing wrong with not getting into a war, without knowing all the facts (ahem, Bush), and there is something wrong with going into a war you don't agree with, getting you're men killed, and losing money, just because we saved their asses in WWII. And back to handling the 9/11 thing better, what about al-Qaeda, have we forgotten them in our undying quest to defend Israel, that's right, Iraq is no imminent threat to America, they are an imminent threat to Israel, NOT US! By the way, if you want to get mad at someone, forget al-Qaeda, forget Iraq, think about Saudi Arabia, because they were the one's who flew that plane into the towers, but hey, they've got oil, so it's ok. Good shape? No our country is in decently good shape, Bill Clinton had the highest economy in HISTORY, that's good shape, yet Bush failed to maintain that. Once again, sorry, I hate to argue and that may have sounded like an attack, but that's not how it was meant. That all you democrats need to shut your mouth thing really got me going though.
ShShShakinUP
02/09/04, 04:27 PM
uh, how about he could of listened to the CIA reports that have come forward saying they had advanced knowledge of Sept 11th.
second, uh .. do more research, there are buckets of documents recently released that say Bin Laden and Hussein had NO sort of ties at all, there were documents seized from Hussein's little rabbit hole thing that verify this as well.
Okay so youre condeming Bush for taking action against a threat that the CIA proposed (Iraq, Hussein, WMD's , and their hatred toward america/Israel). Then on the other hand your'e saying he shouldve acted on reports about 9-11 that the CIA proposed beforehand. You cant be a monday morning quaterback, everyone made a mistake by letting 9-11 happen. Bush and his posse are not going to take something like that again lying down. He's acting on info that the CIA provides him, I totally think that is a breath of fresh air knowing that the President of USA isn't gonna take any more crap. Even if a few of our honerable military soldiers have to give their life for that, it is what they signed up to do. and God bless them.
dumbutt
02/09/04, 04:28 PM
Its called isolationism and he did try to tweak the immigration laws a little bit to allow more eastern european in.
this our government all you fucking assholes blindly follow bush like he is your fucking King. Get some fucking brains and realize the president serves you and not vice versa. President bush should be held accountable for seling a war to us on WMD and then finding none
nfggc10
02/09/04, 04:40 PM
I am so sick of democrats bashing Bush. First, who was the president who created the economic problems(that would be clinton). Second, Iraq obviously had these weapons but were moved before inspectors came in(u can't tell me that a dictator like saddam didnt have WMD). Finally, why is it that people always give Bush the blame but never give him credit for items such as this current economic turn around and ridding a country of one of the world's most dangerous and murderous rulers?
UndefinedBoy
02/09/04, 04:40 PM
Okay so youre condeming Bush for taking action against a threat that the CIA proposed (Iraq, Hussein, WMD's , and their hatred toward america/Israel). Then on the other hand your'e saying he shouldve acted on reports about 9-11 that the CIA proposed beforehand. You cant be a monday morning quaterback, everyone made a mistake by letting 9-11 happen. Bush and his posse are not going to take something like that again lying down. He's acting on info that the CIA provides him, I totally think that is a breath of fresh air knowing that the President of USA isn't gonna take any more crap. Even if a few of our honerable military soldiers have to give their life for that, it is what they signed up to do. and God bless them.
SOLDIERS DO NOT SIGN UP TO BE KILLED.
Clinton's lie was by no means acceptable, but he payed his price for it. Bush's lie is even MORE unacceptable, and he's had to answer to no one. I'm not defending Clinton, but you're damned right I'm attacking Bush. If you want some more varying opinions on topics like these, check out the Politics forum...
falloutncambria
02/09/04, 04:41 PM
i cant believe anyone would possibly believe that there was intelligenece about an imminent attack on our country and we did nothing to stop it. if the plane that crashed in pennsylvania was really headed for the capitol building like it has been reported and it hit the target, this country would be in complete shambles. thats the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard.
nfggc10
02/09/04, 04:44 PM
Glad somebody else has this opinion.
And to those who think military action was not required, country's can't solve every problem by diplomatic means. That's kinda why countries build up militaries(there's common sense 101 for ya).
Okay so youre condeming Bush for taking action against a threat that the CIA proposed (Iraq, Hussein, WMD's , and their hatred toward america/Israel). Then on the other hand your'e saying he shouldve acted on reports about 9-11 that the CIA proposed beforehand. You cant be a monday morning quaterback, everyone made a mistake by letting 9-11 happen. Bush and his posse are not going to take something like that again lying down. He's acting on info that the CIA provides him, I totally think that is a breath of fresh air knowing that the President of USA isn't gonna take any more crap. Even if a few of our honerable military soldiers have to give their life for that, it is what they signed up to do. and God bless them.
nfggc10
02/09/04, 04:45 PM
No they don't sign up to be killed, but they sign up knowing there's the chance they will.
SOLDIERS DO NOT SIGN UP TO BE KILLED.
Clinton's lie was by no means acceptable, but he payed his price for it. Bush's lie is even MORE unacceptable, and he's had to answer to no one. I'm not defending Clinton, but you're damned right I'm attacking Bush. If you want some more varying opinions on topics like these, check out the Politics forum...
ShShShakinUP
02/09/04, 04:50 PM
SOLDIERS DO NOT SIGN UP TO BE KILLED.
Clinton's lie was by no means acceptable, but he payed his price for it. Bush's lie is even MORE unacceptable, and he's had to answer to no one. I'm not defending Clinton, but you're damned right I'm attacking Bush. If you want some more varying opinions on topics like these, check out the Politics forum...
Soldiers sign up to defend their country by any means necessary. Giving their life is unfortunately part of any means necessary. I have a cousin over there right now, they all know what they have at risk. I have much respect for them.
xxHOPESFALLxx
02/09/04, 04:50 PM
I highly doubt that Bush just decided to tell the U.S. people that we were attacking Iraq for WMD just as a cover up for him going in there "for fun." The man (Hussein) needed to be taken out anyway. Saddam has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi people. And don't play the U.N. card here either. Yeah, I know that the U.N. didn't want us to do what we did. I don't give 2 shits about that at all. If we wouldn't have done anything about Hussein, he'd still be dipping his citizens in acid baths over there right now. It WAS our responsibility, because almost every other country in the world lacks the sense (or balls, in France's case) to see the atrocites that this man was commiting on a daily basis.
HEY TATE: Look at it this way: If Bush or one of his officials came to your door tomorrow, and killed your siblings, killed your father, and killed your mother (after raping her) what would you think? If this was happening to you, and the rest of the country, and you couldn't do anything about it, wouldn't you want another country to help you? Also, you act as if Bush is some big, horrible, and evil person. Be glad that he doesn't have his officials come to your door and kill you for speaking out against him.
nfggc10
02/09/04, 04:54 PM
I highly doubt that Bush just decided to tell the U.S. people that we were attacking Iraq for WMD just as a cover up for him going in there "for fun." The man (Hussein) needed to be taken out anyway. Saddam has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi people. And don't play the U.N. card here either. Yeah, I know that the U.N. didn't want us to do what we did. I don't give 2 shits about that at all. If we wouldn't have done anything about Hussein, he'd still be dipping his citizens in acid baths over there right now. It WAS our responsibility, because almost every other country in the world lacks the sense (or balls, in France's case) to see the atrocites that this man was commiting on a daily basis.
HEY TATE: Look at it this way: If Bush or one of his officials came to your door tomorrow, and killed your siblings, killed your father, and killed your mother (after raping her) what would you think? If this was happening to you, and the rest of the country, and you couldn't do anything about it, wouldn't you want another country to help you? Also, you act as if Bush is some big, horrible, and evil person. Be glad that he doesn't have his officials come to your door and kill you for speaking out against him.
Awesome, I couldn't have said it any better.
stay8teen
02/09/04, 05:00 PM
Awesome, I couldn't have said it any better.
i'll second that
Chevyman803
02/09/04, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Jason Tate
cranking up some huge deficit
The deficit has to increase to encourage the economy to grow. Futhermore, his new policies, which probably mostly won't be passed, are to try and cut the budget in half over a 5 year span. Remember everyone, the decline of our economy occurred when Bush took office. The recession was brought about from his predecessors administration.
ShShShakinUP
02/09/04, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Jason Tate
The deficit has to increase to encourage the economy to grow. Futhermore, his new policies, which probably mostly won't be passed, are to try and cut the budget in half over a 5 year span. Remember everyone, the decline of our economy occurred when Bush took office. The recession was brought about from his predecessors administration.
True. And another fact: Under the current administration, unemployement is at an all time low at 6.2%
Slighty better than Clintons 7.1%
venus/bacchus
02/09/04, 05:20 PM
i'll second that
I'll third it
TENCopeland
02/09/04, 05:20 PM
Some of you are ridiculous. I am biased but the arguments against Bush are just dumb. Most of the time you just call him stupid because his pronounces a word incorrectly, maybe if the entire world listened to every word you said you might mess up too. And how has Bush constantly lied to us? I understand how you may think the WMD argument was a lie, but he was given false information, and still there is no proof that there arent WMDs. Bush has done a terrific job leading our nation but i know some of you will never admit that.
wakepunk
02/09/04, 05:30 PM
The same one that created the national debt and banned tens of thousands of Jews from immigrating here to escape the Holocaust?
Screw Bush, but screw the Dem candidates more. I hope there's a good third party running this year...
Yes, he had his screw ups, but every president does, and you can't just focus on his negative aspects (I know that will probably cause plenty of "But we're only focusing on Bush's negative aspects blah blah blah..." comments, so just shut the hell up before you even start). FDR went through a national depression and a world war, all the while battling polio...you just try to tell me he wasn't a tough man. Anyone who's elected for 4 consecutive terms is probably doing something right.
jchausow
02/09/04, 05:47 PM
Does the name Franklin D. Roosevelt ring a bell?
We are the only nation to have ever used a nuclear weapon other than in testing. And twice! But it was a much better situation (war) that the current one, if good can come. Johnson would have rocked if it weren't for that whole vietnam war shizz bizzz....you know, before him, contraceptives were denied to the poor/unmarried so as to not cause socially unacceptable pregnancies.....you get it? I don't. And "chronic poverty leads to chronic chaos"...finally! Clinton was pretty tight for our economy and the job market, but we're learning more and more that some countries got fucked over during his presidency. I'll settle for anything over trickle-down economics...but what do I know? I'm undeclared.
I'll third it
I'll fourth it.
The Bush Administration needed to go into Iraq. They campaigned for the war on the wrong issue though. It shouldn't have been about the WMD, but instead the atrocious crimes committed by Saddam, and the 12 years of violations committed by Iraq against UN sanctions.
haha stop watching CNN 24/7 you brainwashed dipshits
coandca33
02/09/04, 06:08 PM
hey, you said clinton was impeached...he never was impeached, he never even went on trial for it, there was just a private investigator, but no trial, no impeachment.
Trainsaw
02/09/04, 06:09 PM
Bush's days are numbered. And anyone who thinks bush didn't go into iraq for his own personal reasons is a dumbass. I don't believe they have proven any of his claims of WMD's and Ties to Bin Laden.
hey, you said clinton was impeached...he never was impeached, he never even went on trial for it, there was just a private investigator, but no trial, no impeachment.
Actually, he was impeached by the House, but wasn't impeached by the Senate.
NetNerdsRevenge
02/09/04, 06:20 PM
to whoever said we were ruining our allies, were not. Allies are supposed to back each other. France didnt have to give troops, but they could of donated money or supplies to the war. Same with Germany and Russia, but wait...we find that these same 3 countries have been giving money and equipment to iraq.
No one shoul be praising bush either. he has spent more money then bill gates and has very VERY stupid immigration laws. He has turned the economy around tho, i will give him that.
As far as the war goes.....i never knew it was wrong to take out a man who kills his own people. We know he had/has wmd's. he has used them!! He had to be hiding something since inspectors had to sit outside of iraqi compounds for 2 to 3 hours. Colin powell showed high military activity where suspected wmds were. Dont forget that clinton bombed iraq because they wouldnt let inspectors in and because he feared they were starting a wmd program. Saddam even tried to kill the first bush, isnt that reason enough to get rid of him? All in all he was a bad guy and should be stoned by his own people
UndefinedBoy
02/09/04, 06:42 PM
to whoever said we were ruining our allies, were not. Allies are supposed to back each other. France didnt have to give troops, but they could of donated money or supplies to the war. Same with Germany and Russia
Who says Allies have to support you when you're wrong? If a friend of yours told you to hit someone because they wanted you to, would you do it just because they told you to? Give those countries some credit, they stood up to the World's biggest bully because they didn't agree with the way we were doing what we were doing.
Also, I forget who said it but I don't recall ever bashing FDR. He created a lot of problems in the government in the long-term, but he did what was right at the time for the country. Also, since when did Bush turn the economy around? Oh wait, he did...he put it right in the shitter.
Very few of us are saying Bush sucks because he can't pronounce words (although thats a quality I like in the leader of the free world). I don't like him because I find him to be a shitty President.
I'd appreciate it if some of you Pro-Bush folk would at least admit he was at fault with the whole lying abotu WMDs. Its nice that now that its come out that there are none that your whole argument is that "Oh well, Saddam should have been taken out anyway..." Yeah, blame it on the CIA if you'd like, but there's a lot more to it than that. If Bush was at all thinking, or had thinking people around him (besides Dick....but all he's thinking about is Halliburton) he'd have more thoroughly investigated that claim before telling the world.
And stop pulling that bullshit about Bush killing our families, I've heard that way too many times...No one is saying Bush is worse than Saddam...jesus...
nfggc10
02/09/04, 06:59 PM
Oh, you're talking about Iraqis wanting us to help them? That has nothing to do with lies about weapons of mass destruction, nuclear programs, and nuclear weapons, does it? It's a questionable statement at best, really, but it has nothing to do with the intelligence failure that Bush should be held accountable for. Yes, the CIA fed the administration SOME information, but if you unjustly kicked someone's ass because someone "told you to", who would be held accountable? You? Or the person who told you?
Honestly, how could anyone believe that Iraq did not have WMD? Just look at their former leader who was accountable for AT LEAST hundreds of thousands of deaths in his country. Your view point is typical of liberals who can't see the big picture, which is that we are trying to save a country. Basically, Bush has spent the last few years cleaning up the mess of poor foreign policy issues that Clinton left this country with.
maledixtion
02/09/04, 07:18 PM
I love this post. The republicans on here have made awesome points, all of the ones I was going to post. Lincoln is the the only president to handle a war the ideal way. FDR prevented Jewish refugees from coming to America, and dropped two nukes on two major cities. And don't say that 100s of Americans are going to their deaths in Iraq. The actual count is very low, lower than deaths that occur in non-war conflicts. Just because Clinton didn't declare war in Bosnia doesn't mean he never sent American soldiers to die. I also liked the point that you can't be "a monday morning quarterback" about this now. The information that our country has about Iraq has improved. I personally am glad that Bush didn't wait around for a hostile country with terrorist networks (Bush never said Al-Queda relations, just terrorist relations, he didn't lie) to target our soil again. If there's one thing I can say about Bush, it's that when he says he's going to do something, he does it. He doesn't dick around and waste time. Another thing about him is that you can read him by watching his face. Clinton had a knack of pulling the wool over our eyes. I'm voting Bush. This democrat bitching is getting old. The more you complain the more I want to vote the other side, your just lucky I wanted Bush to begin with. God himself couldn't have saved us after 9/11 if that robot Al "I invented the Internet" Gore had won.
okcomputer
02/09/04, 07:30 PM
"God himself couldn't have saved us after 9/1..."
Try again. He did, through Bush.
kevinw33
02/09/04, 07:39 PM
"God himself couldn't have saved us after 9/1..."
Try again. He did, through Bush.
i 2nd that. can you imagine what would have happened if gore was in office now??? he would have slapped osama's wrist and said, "now dont you do that again you bad boy." what a puss. now, osama is living in a hole regretting everything just like saddam was. ha! that is, if he hasnt been blown away by a bomb and we just dont know it. and to think that all the dem/lib idiots are just thinkin, "just let osama express himself, lets find out why he is angry, he is really the victim here." it is the grace of God that bush was elected. oh, and when bush wins again, do we have to listen to you idiots complain for another 4 years? i hope not.
p.s. just because you like nofx, doesnt mean you should let fat mike brainwash you and make you stupid. gather your own opinions off common sense, not him and cnn.
Sureshot182
02/09/04, 07:42 PM
clinton had the same intelligence bush did. clinton's intelligence showed the same thing (iraq had weapons of mass destruction). the difference is clinton never acted on anything. bush may not have gone about iraq the right way, but he stopped suddam hussein, who brutally murdered millions of his own people, and who did help terrorists. give it up , clinton is long gone, he's not coming back, and he wasn't a good president in the first place. you can say all you want about bush not stopping 9/11, but why wasn't clinton doing something about it for the previous 8 years?
maledixtion
02/09/04, 07:43 PM
"God himself couldn't have saved us after 9/1..."
Try again. He did, through Bush.
You have to read the "if" statement that followed that statement. It's a Pro-Bush statement, I'm on your side...
While I'm posting again, I might as well take this opportunity to make it clear that Bush is the ONLY president EVER to attain a Master's Degree. He isn't stupid. Pronouciation has nothing to do with brains. Mispronounciation doesn't make you a bad leader (spare me the wise ass comments of "it makes you a bad leader if people can't comprehend what you're saying", because everyone understands him). I was also going to say I hope a democrat wins so when the economy goes further in the hole, we can all point and laugh. When the country goes to shit, we can all point and say "I told you so" to all the democrats here. But I'd rather have my country intact in 2008 than to be able to laugh at the Democrats, so I won't tempt fate.
*Side Note* Look at what happened to California's economy with a Democrat behind the wheel. It doesn't get any worse than that.
Sureshot182
02/09/04, 07:43 PM
clinton had the same intelligence bush did. clinton's intelligence showed the same thing (iraq had weapons of mass destruction). the difference is clinton never acted on anything. bush may not have gone about iraq the right way, but he stopped suddam hussein, who brutally murdered millions of his own people, and who did help terrorists. give it up , clinton is long gone, he's not coming back, and he wasn't a good president in the first place. you can say all you want about bush not stopping 9/11, but why wasn't clinton doing something about it for the previous 8 years?
christxcore
02/09/04, 07:44 PM
all you democrats need to shut your mouths. i couldnt imagine anyone possibly handling the sptember 11 situation any better with more posie and patriotism than george w bush. name one better war time president than him other than possibly abe lincoln. to say this war is unjust is preposterous. tell me the world is not a better place without saddam hussein in power. do you realize the amount of destruction this man caused to the human race?? and he clearly has had it out for the united states of america for years upon years. he was a known friend and confidante of osama bin laden. our country is in good shape right now and i cant imagine it being nearly on the same level with another man as our president after the destruction of 9-11.
I feel, and this may be wrong of me, that anyone who agrees and adores the President the way so many Americans do is an uneducated dimwit who believes propaganda and thinks that Big Brother would be a good idea, cause hey, safety first. Bush is a hypocrite and a fraud, but I guess that just comes with beign a male cheerleader. If anyone of you support Bush you better have your facts right or else you are just being one of his little brain washed soliders
christxcore
02/09/04, 07:49 PM
"God himself couldn't have saved us after 9/1..."
Try again. He did, through Bush.
Oh and p.s.- war is not a christian value, but peace... umm, what about that whole turn the other check . God isnt American!
kevinw33
02/09/04, 07:53 PM
do not insult the soldiers who are dying to protect your sorry ass, move to france if you dont like it.
maledixtion
02/09/04, 07:54 PM
Hey ChristXCore, it was an analogy. Anyway, do you mean God wouldn't save the Christian Americans? Also, many wars have been fought in God's name. Keep in mind I NEVER said that the Iraqi War was in God's name, I said God couldn't save our country if Gore had been in charge during 9/11.
kevinw33
02/09/04, 07:56 PM
Oh and p.s.- war is not a christian value, but peace... umm, what about that whole turn the other check . God isnt American!
the Bible was full of wars. dont be an idiot. when war is necessary, it is not looked down on by God. going after a madman who killed thousands is necessary. why can we go after hitler and not saddam and osama? make sense? i didnt think so.
All I have to say "The French have no word for entrepreneur " - George W. Bush.
Nope they sure don't buddy, way to prove them wrong.......Complete Moron.
giraffeandahalf
02/09/04, 08:01 PM
HEY TATE: Look at it this way: If Bush or one of his officials came to your door tomorrow, and killed your siblings, killed your father, and killed your mother (after raping her) what would you think? If this was happening to you, and the rest of the country, and you couldn't do anything about it, wouldn't you want another country to help you? Also, you act as if Bush is some big, horrible, and evil person. Be glad that he doesn't have his officials come to your door and kill you for speaking out against him.
so you're saying the iraqi people would rather be killed by us than live under suddam's rule? cause you know, loads of innocent iraqis were killed by americans during this little war...
dumbutt
02/09/04, 08:05 PM
I don't know who I'm replying to but
1. FDR didn't drop the atomic bomb, it was Truman
2. The House are the one to decide if they want to impeach a President and the Senate rules whether or not the President is guilty of commiting such crimes.
3. You cannot say bad things about the troops. Have you not learn anything about what happened in Vietnam. More soldiers died in Vietnam b/c it didn't have the support of its people, and it lower their moral. So use your bills of rights to complain about the government but not the soldiers.
NeverForever
02/09/04, 08:25 PM
Point of clarification. Tate is right, Clinton was impeached just not removed from office. The House of Representatives impeaches and then the Senate must vote to remove the president from office, which never happened.
Sorry, but I actually am a poli sci major.
jchausow
02/09/04, 08:42 PM
Hey ChristXCore, it was an analogy. Anyway, do you mean God wouldn't save the Christian Americans? Also, many wars have been fought in God's name. Keep in mind I NEVER said that the Iraqi War was in God's name, I said God couldn't save our country if Gore had been in charge during 9/11.
Though I am not a Christian, I have a basic understanding of the fundamental ideas. There have been many wars in God's name, but not under his command. It is hypocrisy. "Thou shalt not kill." It can't be clearer. People are looking for divine justification for their own malice. Christianity is based upon the idea of an imminent apocalypse, and is very socialist in nature. The last commandment, as well as much of the the book of Matthews discusses the ethics of materialism. America is an ungodly country. You may be in favor of the death penalty, of war, of capitalism, and of any other aspect of the American system, but do not claim these people, especially not their leader, are in accordance with Christianity's ideas. And this idea carries on to homosexuality, sodomy, and other contraversial issues, yet the foundation of our country is blasphemy. It's picking and choosing. Please tell me that I'm wrong, because it's frustrating to think this way. By the way, I realize that you are not saying that this war is "in god's name." I 'm mostly referring to the "christian americans" question.
Logic929
02/09/04, 09:01 PM
HEY TATE: Look at it this way: If Bush or one of his officials came to your door tomorrow, and killed your siblings, killed your father, and killed your mother (after raping her) what would you think? If this was happening to you, and the rest of the country, and you couldn't do anything about it, wouldn't you want another country to help you? Also, you act as if Bush is some big, horrible, and evil person. Be glad that he doesn't have his officials come to your door and kill you for speaking out against him.
you are a fucking dickhead
Actually I am going to say something. After watching you all fucking argue over who's right did you ever think maybe no one is. Nukes in Japan, Agent Orange in Vietnam and now the war in Iraq. It now clear to me how American works. Let's do whatever we can no matter if its right or wrong or againt the beliefs your country was founded on to ensure that we live our rich ass lives to the fullest. Wow I mean September 11th was bad but come on its peanuts compared to what people all over the world have to go through in many countries everyday. Be thankful you don't live in a hut in Somalia thinking about where your next meal is going to come from. You live in America and you got everything you need in life at your finger tips. I mean we are that include me are all sitting on are asses infront of our computer's instead while some people don't even got running water. So maybe all of us should think about how your going to better the lives of people around the world instead making a mess. Sure Sadamm had to go but we could of done it the right way, now whats going to happen to Iraq? No one knows but I guess we are all going to forget about it right, hell if we all had to take a turn for 6 months and have to go into Iraq and rebuild what we did would you still be for the war???? Think about that! It's easy to say things when we arn't directly involved. Just because all our pretty little lives got a taste of the real world and what people have to deal with everyday in some countries doesn't mean its right to play the King of it.Yes the world can be an ugly place but America is supposed to represent freedom. For example by holding people hostege in Cuba isn't denying freedom then America should re-think what its based on. Some of those people do deserve to be there but I am sure many do not. Especially the way they are being held. Innocent until proven guilty is that not the way its supposed to be. I guess it's ok to pretend what we are doing is right as long as we all can sit on our asses and watch Friends every week. And now I will sit back and watch the abuse come my way. But at least I have balls enough to say what all of you know is true and that we take way to much for granted.
MattFCC
02/09/04, 09:11 PM
Pop quiz,
Who fits this discription:
1. has weapons of mass destruction
2. has known connections to the Bin Laden family
3. is responsable for the deaths of thousands of innocent people
4. has attacked and waged illigal war against other counties for no other reason than his own personal vendettas and potential gain.
give up?
George w. Bush.
just something to ponder, kids.
toddisawesome
02/09/04, 09:33 PM
I actually consider myself unbiased here, but there are a few things i have noticed...
First, it seems the majority of conservative posts are well thought out, legimate responses while the majority of liberal posts use a lot of swearing and rely more on bashing the other side than talking about the issues. Again, this is just the majority, because there were a couple conservatives who sounded like complete idiots, and there were some liberals who I felt represented a well-educated viewpoint.
Secondly, no one signs up for the millitary wanting to die for their country. But they know full well that it is a possibility, and since this is the life they chose, it's how it has to be. If there were to be a draft, this would be a completely different argument.
Lastly, we all know Bush has made some bad decisions. But regardless of his decisions, one thing you can say for him is that he takes action. This country wasn't built by leaders who were afraid to take action. This country was built by men who believed strongly enough to take the necessary actions, regardless if their fellow countrymen believed otherwise. Whether you believe going into Iraq was right or not, at least he didnt half-ass it. He went in based on information that was given to him, and he had no reason to believe that the information was false. Another thing is that Clinton had his chance to capture Bin Laden during his term in office, and he did not. A few short years later, Osama launches his attack on America. Sadaam was Bush's "Osama" so to speak. Had he not gone into iraq during his term, who wants to bet that if Sadaam launched an attack on the US in 2010 with a democrat in office, there would be a large outcry by the liberals saying that Bush should have gone into Iraq to capture him during his term.
...Did that make sense?? It's getting late and I didn't reread what I wrote, and I tend to ramble.
ilovedrugs
02/09/04, 09:35 PM
what is said below is very true...did you know that all of bin ladens family who resided in the USA post 9-11 was flown to pakistan on private jets provided by the president because they felt threatened here. the bush and bin laden families have known oil connections. also, if you read the book that has been put out by bush's first secretary of treasury, (i forget his name and what its called off hand) youll learn that bush wanted to go into iraq from day one. think about how much this country is goin to owe us in grants once we help them rebuild. how are they goin to repay us? oil. what business is george w. in? oil. how ironic. if you guys want to learn about how corrupt america is i suggest you all go to google and search "skull and bones society" and click the first link that comes up. the powers at be in this country and crazy fuckin bastards running everythin from behind the scenes. kerry is even a member of the skull and bones. that's probably why he has a shot. also read this article - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70B1EFB3F5D0C768 EDDA80894DC404482 . can we even trust that our vote will be counted fairly, the government wont disclose how votes are counted. moreover, post 9-11, there was little or no press on WHY this happened. if poeple out there hate us so fuckin much that they're going to make elaborate plans to kill us we must be doing something to them and the rest of the world. get a clue people, america is ridiculously greedy. we go into third world nations and sell rice to their peasants for cheaper than their own farmers can grow it for. thats just plain out of control. karma is a motherfucker and we as the united states have some serious shit coming back to us. the youth needs to seek the truth, unite and turn this country around before the powers at be blow it up.
Pop quiz,
Who fits this discription:
1. has weapons of mass destruction
2. has known connections to the Bin Laden family
3. is responsable for the deaths of thousands of innocent people
4. has attacked and waged illigal war against other counties for no other reason than his own personal vendettas and potential gain.
give up?
George w. Bush.
just something to ponder, kids.
venus/bacchus
02/09/04, 09:40 PM
Pop quiz,
Who fits this discription:
1. has weapons of mass destruction
2. has known connections to the Bin Laden family
3. is responsable for the deaths of thousands of innocent people
4. has attacked and waged illigal war against other counties for no other reason than his own personal vendettas and potential gain.
give up?
George w. Bush.
just something to ponder, kids.
1. We're allowed to have WMDs. Other countries are too. Iraq is not under the UN regulations.
2. Yes, so they were friends and were in the oil business together. Does that mean he has ties to Osama? No. Osama has been completely ostracized from the family.
3. There were very few innoncent casualties in the Iraq War. It was actually very well executed.
4. How is this war illegal? It was supported by Congress, which is more than enough. We don't need the UN's permission. What have we gained from this war? It definitely wasn't oil, seeing as how we're now in the process of turning it over to the Iraqi people. It wasn't land, because we're also turning the country over to the Iraqis. It wasn't adoration, as we've possibly lost some allies. There's no reason to believe it was only for personal vendettas either, other than that being a spin put on by people in opposition of the war.
I've pondered it
venus/bacchus
02/09/04, 09:52 PM
what is said below is very true...did you know that all of bin ladens family who resided in the USA post 9-11 was flown to pakistan on private jets provided by the president because they felt threatened here. the bush and bin laden families have known oil connections. also, if you read the book that has been put out by bush's first secretary of treasury, (i forget his name and what its called off hand) youll learn that bush wanted to go into iraq from day one. think about how much this country is goin to owe us in grants once we help them rebuild. how are they goin to repay us? oil. what business is george w. in? oil. how ironic. if you guys want to learn about how corrupt america is i suggest you all go to google and search "skull and bones society" and click the first link that comes up. the powers at be in this country and crazy fuckin bastards running everythin from behind the scenes. kerry is even a member of the skull and bones. that's probably why he has a shot. also read this article - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70B1EFB3F5D0C768 EDDA80894DC404482 . can we even trust that our vote will be counted fairly, the government wont disclose how votes are counted. moreover, post 9-11, there was little or no press on WHY this happened. if poeple out there hate us so fuckin much that they're going to make elaborate plans to kill us we must be doing something to them and the rest of the world. get a clue people, america is ridiculously greedy. we go into third world nations and sell rice to their peasants for cheaper than their own farmers can grow it for. thats just plain out of control. karma is a motherfucker and we as the united states have some serious shit coming back to us. the youth needs to seek the truth, unite and turn this country around before the powers at be blow it up.
Or maybe you just believe that because you're on drugs. Sorry, I had to do it, just kidding.
The Bin Ladens and Bushes have been good friends for a long time. That's no secret. If your friends were visiting you, and their psycho brother starting shooting up your neighbors, wouldn't you get them out before the neighbors started attacking them for recompense? I think it's good that he actually got them out instead of leaving them susceptible to an attack. I think what you meant to say is Bush used to be in the oil business. He and Cheney aren't now, but yet Cheney takes a lot of heat for Haliburton being involved in cleaning up Iraq. There is nothing wrong with a country repaying us for removing an evil dictator. Chances are, we won't see a lot of money or oil (that's how most rebuilding goes), but a little is a nice gesture, and we've just gained a new ally in the powder keg that is the middle east. To ignore the other factors that led to war is to follow blindly. Saddam is a horrible human being who was allowed to maintain power for years because everyone else was afraid to rock the boat.
FarPastGone
02/09/04, 09:53 PM
I support the troops...............I however think George W. Bush acted unneedingly.............and I think Clinton was a great president, most foriegn relations were awesome in his time in office.......
is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein in power?
you damn right it is.
NOBODY WANTS WAR. we all agree war is absolutely horrible.
but am i going to go and stop these people..
who hijacked airplanes and FLEW THEM INTO SYMBOLS OF OUR NATION... and KILLED our neighbors, friends, relatives, fellow co-workers...
you cant not negotiate with terrorists. you can't. you need to stop them, before they get their hands on horrible weapons that would be disastrous to the country. you can not talk to these people that have proved that they are willing to kill themselves and innocent people , intentionally.
bush fucked up on the post-war planning and that is evident with the mess that is going on there right now. The country is getting better though, even ABC did a report on it.
any of you calling the president a liar on WMDs is is indeed himself lying, unless you call Clinton and Blair liars too.
Bush is doing what he needs to do - rather than hide away from the fact that obviously the public was mislead about the WMD issue.. did you people forget that the Clinton administration said the same exact thing? They TOO had the same faulty information from the CIA.
Tenet needs to resign, end of story.. the CIA needs to be re-organized and things need to chance so that the level of conflict between the agencies (Cia, Fbi, NSA, INS) is not nearly as high as it was pre-911.
HERES SOME HISTORY FOR YOU, JUST READ IT:
the clinton-gore administration which was consitutionally obligated to look after our national security, actively undermined our intelligence-gathering capabilities and demoralized our intelligence community...
in the wake of disclosures by Torricelli that a Guatemalan colonel linked to the murder of an American was on the CIA payroll, the agency FIRED ONE-THIRD OF ITS INFORTMANTS - roughyl 1,000 'assets' and instituted new rules on the recruitment of sources.
Robert Baer, former CIA operative in the Middle East, confirms the essence of the story. "in the mid-1990s" he assrts "the CIA underwent what we called an 'agent scrub.' That meant that we LET GO of approximately SIXTY PERCENT of our human sources, perhaps more, which seriously damaged the CIA."... The result: the US has even fewer human intelligence resources in the Middle East than we had at the start of the 1990s.
Copyright and exerted in poor fashion from Sean Hannity's book "Let Freedom Ring." Read up on Oliver North while you're at it too..
Also taken,
1999, a full 2 years before 9-11... "yet at the same time that his own State Department was identifying serious terrorist threats from bin Laden.. president Clinton was actually pARDONING TERRORISTS who KILLED innocent AMERICANS, includying New York City Cops... remember when President Clinton pardoned terrorists who were members of the radical Puerto Rican faction called the FALN, responsible for ONE HUNDRED bombings on American SOIL? we even have videotape of some of these guys making bombs, it was aired on Hannity and Colmes."
(also from Hannity's book): as well as this, and pay attention folks in case you didnt know, because anyone with any knowledge at all realizes this:
Clinton-Gore administration turned down getting Bin Laden from Sudan... 5 times.
february 1996, august1996, april 97, february 98, july 2000 - over a year before the 9-11 attacks. They were offered Bin Laden and could have took down and began unraveling his terrorist network a full SIX years before 9-11..
whats my point? dont blame Bush on 9-11.
9-11 couldnt really have been prevented, but you can't blame it on Bush, nor can you blame it on Clinton.
it was an agency mess... look at the justice system which is the cause of Carla Brucia's death (the 11 year old girl that was just found killed the other day)
Kerry is going to have a rough time winning, straight up. And oh ya Hillary Clinton? just remember this number: '08
thats al li need to say about that. and if kerry or any democrat wins this year, who can't run in 08? you got it, HIllary.
so it's going to be interesting to see what the dem's are going to do.
Bush is doing what he needs to do. he needs to speak to the American public and explain how this could have happened. more than anything it hurts our image with the rest of the world, as of right now... but we shall see. wait for al lthe facts to come out, that's all im saying.
is the world a better place without Saddam? once again,yes.
of course you have Kofi Annan demanding that Saddam not be executed... even though he allowed Saddam to give the death penalty to hundreds of thousands of people, and if Annan had backed up his word 5 years ago, that would have protected many, MANY lives.
also, we dont TARGET civilians by the way. its tragic that they die, but nobody authorizes that they be killed... OH WAIT, unless you were Saddam Hussein or any of the other vicious dictators till in power across the globe.
you do realize that the head of the BBC of Great Britainr esigned because they accused Blair of lying about WMD, the same unfounded charges that are against the Bush administration - of course, when the British government demanded any sort of proof of the charges, the BBC collapsed and couldn't prove any.
Clark screwed himself with his comments on Michael Moore and even Peter Jennings called him on it, and thus Clark who i thought would possssibly be a good candidate - i mean hell, on paper he's the best one out there, falls in my book.
America is a forgiving country but in order to be forgiven, you have to own up to your mistakes..
in the end, fair-minded Americans will decide if Bush did the right thing or not in Iraq... read Kay's report, just dont read it from CNN. look at other outlets, educate yourself from different perspectives and spin.
thats the beauty of this country, freedom of speech and thought.
just i urge you to read up and get some facts before you start ranting and raving about nothing at all. Every presidency has its faults obviously.
i didnt write this to shoot propaghanda at you, just throwing some alternate views that some of you might not have known. and if you knew them, hell.. great
im an independent. it just ticks me off when some people make bogus claims.
once again. believe what you want, this is the beauty of politics and America. dont shit talk me for just presenting some facts to you and some of my beliefs but not nearly even close to any of them.
and one more thing..
to the person who was all like 'the only thing bush did was go about the right way after 9-11'
are u kidding me? like, are you kidding me.
i cant even imagine what would have happened if Gore was the President.. in fact, i dont want to.
and heres another thing: Gore has to realize that he has lost all chances of getting to the big seat, please someone inform him of that.
Bush did exactly what America needed. he proved valiant credibility after 9-11.
and always, always remember our solders - our friends and family giving up their lives so we can sit here from our homes and universities and places across this country, and talk how freely we do.
tomtheav
02/09/04, 10:56 PM
First and foremost before I share my viewpoints we must realize one thing. Realize the type of country that we live in from these boards themselves. We live in a country where we are allowed to speak out on the issues we believe in. So when election time comes use the rights granted to us and VOTE. Historically, people between the ages of 18-24 do not vote. People our age leave their opinions on message boards and in college classrooms. This is a trend that needs to change if we ever expect our opinions to be heard and taken seriously. Next the Bush administration never claimed that WMD's were the only reason for going into Iraq. There were obviously many reasons. But, the fact remains that Saddam Hussein is no longer in power and that is a very good thing. No one can argue that. Thirdly. Yes, the lack of knowledgable intelligence by the CIA is in Bush's hands but that does not mean he lied or misled the American people. He acted on reports from what should have been a reliable and credible source. If anything people should be talking about how a reconstruction of the CIA needs to be undertaken. Bush had the same intelligenc that Clinton did, but the difference is he acted upon it. As others before me have said Bush does not screw around he makes a desicion and acts on it. Finally, even though the Iraqi war is what Bush will be remebered for he has also done many other things for our country. Just look at the job he has done turning around our countries economy. Please people make sure that your opinions are heard not only on boards like this but in places where it really matters. When it comes down to it one vote does not matter, but one vote times millions of people does. To change the mentality of this country we must also change our mindset. Realize that we are the future of this country.
grimis16biz
02/09/04, 11:07 PM
Well iv been in college for about 3 years now. I still dont know shit about politics, proud of it. But there is one thing i do know, democrats drive me fucking nuts! Im a independent that leans on the republican side, and yeah ill be voteing Bush, along with probably 54% of america. Fuck you Hippies! P.S. And you know what??? I have tons of friends that are in the army (best friend, and my brother to name 2) and they WANT TO BE THERE! So fuck you people that say "Bush is sending our troops, are children to die" Shut the fuck up already, almost all of the want to be there and want to fight.
heresforhoping
02/10/04, 02:52 AM
when i hear bush talk all i hear is, "9-11 9-11 9-11, wmds wmds wmds, terriorists terriorists. god bless america"
The funniest thing about this board is reading all of the highly-intelligent, well thought-out posts on this board. We have liberals calling conservatives names, and vice versa. But most importantly, we have people proudly proclaiming they don't care what's going on in their own country, and many of those that do care are spewing out false facts.
If there's one thing that's become painfully clear to me over the last few years, it's that the American media are not to be trusted. Sure this may sound a bit conspiracy-theory oriented, but think about it. How many times do you turn on the news to see some story that has been cleverly crafted to scare the shit out of you? A new disease (SARS), increasing coverage of crime (when crime rates were decreasing), or the current imminent threat of instant and total annihilation. I guarantee you it's far too often, but most of you probably don't even realize it.
A case-study for your consideration. I recently read a story about how mentally ill man had been executed in the United States (I want to say Texas, but I can't recall for certain). The article made obvious mention about the fact that he was mentally ill and even mentioned that the UN and Amnesty International showed strong disapproval that the state was carrying this out. I thought I'd see what an American-based news source had to say about the same story. First of all, I had to search a lot harder to find it on their website, but once I did, the differences were unsurprising, to say the least. The American article made absolutely no mention of the disapproval of world organizations and only made one brief mention of the fact that the man was mentally ill toward the end of the article, and even then, they tried to put a positive spin on it, saying that he was no longer in pain (the man had been diagnosed with multiple personality disorder, a condition that rarely includes pain as a symptom or result).
In light of this, the fact that the American media are now starting to catch onto the story about Bush's lies about WMDs leads me to believe that the situation is probably much worse than it really is. So, they run their damage control, where Bush actually handles himself uncharacteristically well, and all of a sudden...
OH MY GOD, THERE'S A NIPPLE ON MY TV SCREEN!
The country is caught up in this media circus and many have been successfully distracted from the real issue at hand here. It's happened many times before and this will be far from the last. So my message to you is stop reading your local newspapers, stop watching FoxNews, and stop checking cnn.com. Seek out a real news source from the outside. Unfortunately, Bush will not be impeached for his mistakes, which were far more atrocious than getting a blowjob, but such is this crazy little world of ours.
But I don't really care because deep down, I know that Bush will lose in November. Barring another stolen election, of course.
By the way, I think that more of my fellow liberals out there need to be more confident with your viewpoints and more eloquent in getting them across. "Fuck you" and "your a douchbag" aren't going to win any arguments.
-The proudest "hippie" you'll ever meet
Parade of Chaos
02/10/04, 04:54 AM
I highly doubt that Bush just decided to tell the U.S. people that we were attacking Iraq for WMD just as a cover up for him going in there "for fun." The man (Hussein) needed to be taken out anyway. Saddam has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi people. And don't play the U.N. card here either. Yeah, I know that the U.N. didn't want us to do what we did. I don't give 2 shits about that at all. If we wouldn't have done anything about Hussein, he'd still be dipping his citizens in acid baths over there right now. It WAS our responsibility, because almost every other country in the world lacks the sense (or balls, in France's case) to see the atrocites that this man was commiting on a daily basis.
HEY TATE: Look at it this way: If Bush or one of his officials came to your door tomorrow, and killed your siblings, killed your father, and killed your mother (after raping her) what would you think? If this was happening to you, and the rest of the country, and you couldn't do anything about it, wouldn't you want another country to help you? Also, you act as if Bush is some big, horrible, and evil person. Be glad that he doesn't have his officials come to your door and kill you for speaking out against him.
Damn straight dude. People need to sit back and realize that Saddam being gone is good. He was a fucking piece of shit. Bush didnt send soldiers to die. He sent them to save millions of Iraqis from dying. Granted weve lost a few hundred soldiers, but that could happens at any time anywhere.
I personally think the Democrats and liars and are full of bullshit. They cant find any real issues to hit on so they bitch about little issues that really mean nothing.
VOTE BUSH
kylekillspeople
02/10/04, 06:01 AM
tate, where are these documents which you speak of? The CIA reports that QUESTION, not deny or divulge any proof that we asa nation were mislead by intelligence gained by THE CIA (not G.w, i know it sucks you cant bash the guy for that one.) were leaked, released or whatever in mid january. someone as astute in bitching about the current state of our nation would obivously know that we have been at war in iraq since march and have been gathering intelligence on hussein and his regime for the past decade and a half. seems like there is alot more involved in this situation than a "dumb spoiled brat texan".
kylekillspeople
02/10/04, 06:07 AM
i really agree with nfggc in the sense that president bush has spent alot of his fisrt teerm as president mopping up after clinton. Clinton, while i hate him, did great things for social programs in our country. AS good as he was in the homeland his foreign policy left our country susceptible to attacks like 9/11. you forget that when the sudan kicked osama bin laden out of its nation he was offered to the united states. OFFERED! what did slick willy do? he refused him. what happens next is bin laden goes to afghanistan, becomes buddy buddy with the taliban and the rest is history. and bush is the idiot right?
Originally posted by Jason Tate
The deficit has to increase to encourage the economy to grow. Futhermore, his new policies, which probably mostly won't be passed, are to try and cut the budget in half over a 5 year span. Remember everyone, the decline of our economy occurred when Bush took office. The recession was brought about from his predecessors administration.
During times of war, our country will be in deficit spending mode. During WWII, weren't we close to spending almost double what the gov't made/took in? I think we're a helluva lot lower than that right now.
And John Kerry isn't a fucking hero. He threw his medals at the White House, therefore flipping off the memory of all previous winners of the silver star. John Kerry also wanted to disband the CIA and put all of our armed forces at the beck and call of the UN.
so you're saying the iraqi people would rather be killed by us than live under suddam's rule? cause you know, loads of innocent iraqis were killed by americans during this little war...
Holy balls, batman! Were you there? Did you serve over there? Did you see the people come up to you and call you "Freedom Man"? Happened to me while I was stationed over there. Yes... they hate not living under Saddam. No offense, but people shouldn't comment on things they don't know anything about.
Originally Posted by giraffeandahalf
so you're saying the iraqi people would rather be killed by us than live under suddam's rule? cause you know, loads of innocent iraqis were killed by americans during this little war...
Maybe you're right. This "suddam" might have been a better guy than Saddam. We'll never know, until Suddam shows up and leads the Iraqi people to a brighter future.
I'm an ass. Sorry. I know it's just a typo.
PairADiceLost
02/10/04, 08:00 AM
If you are interested at all in politics, I highly recommend picking up the latest issue of Time Magazine (Feb. 9th issue) and reading the article on the 'WMD' that we were led to believe (in other words, lied to ..) were in Iraq. A very good, educated, well researched, and un-biased piece. And to think, Bill Clinton got impeached for getting a blow job, are we kidding?
I heard about this on the news the other day, and damnit that pissed me off. I had friends in Iraq that had gone through so much shit, all for nothing.
just to clarify, you were being sarcastic when you said "they hate not living under saddam," right?
and i really like the point about clinton and bosnia. sure he didn't declare war, but he definitely still sent tons of troops to war (not saying i didn't support it, i did, but it's hypocritical to glorify clinton and damn bush when they did basically the same thing).
Yes... I was being sarcastic. When you have people dancing in the streets because you're liberating them, you know you're doing the right thing.
Did you know that the "war" in Bosnia was stopped because Gore had to focus on his campaign to run for the White House. It was released in Gen. Clark's papers that came out last week. He was told "you don't have to win this thing. Just let it lie." Thank fucking god that man didn't become president.
And whoever said they didn't have spy planes flying over Iraq, you're wrong. We had unidentified aircraft on our scope (I'm a radar guy) about 80,000 -100,000 feet up. About the same height as a U-2 can fly.
What about Clinton's bombing of Iraq in 1998? Didn't Tom Daschle and John Kerry come out and say "We have to act on our own. We can't wait for the rest of the world to get on board"? How does someone's mind do a complete 180 degree turn on a subject in 5 years? Come on, people! The democratic party is flailing, trying to hit home on something.
PairADiceLost
02/10/04, 08:04 AM
when i hear bush talk all i hear is, "9-11 9-11 9-11, wmds wmds wmds, terriorists terriorists. god bless america"
Ever realize how Bush never speaks while Chaney is drinking water? Check that shit out! Coincidence? I think not! Robin Williams - Live on Broadway. He's such a damn genius.
keep dreaming, buddy. america is becoming increasingly republican. the majority on this website (a PUNK website) are republicans. and after bush caught saddam? pshhh. it's over.
and the way it looks like is kerry (an uber-liberal) is going to be the democratic elect. people will not vote for someone who is that liberal in the wake of a war with iraq. it just won't happen.
Well, I hope you're right. But the British in 1946 ousted Churchill's party in favor of the Left-leaning Labor party. It's not a guarantee that Bush will win.
InaGreendase
02/10/04, 08:05 AM
Iraq is no imminent threat to America, they are an imminent threat to Israel, NOT US!
And Israel is an emminent threat to Palestine, and vice versa. It's a never-ending cycle.
Okay so youre condeming Bush for taking action against a threat that the CIA proposed (Iraq, Hussein, WMD's , and their hatred toward america/Israel). Then on the other hand your'e saying he shouldve acted on reports about 9-11 that the CIA proposed beforehand. You cant be a monday morning quaterback
There's a difference between building airport security and sending military forces over to another country.
HEY TATE: Look at it this way: If Bush or one of his officials came to your door tomorrow, and killed your siblings, killed your father, and killed your mother (after raping her) what would you think? If this was happening to you, and the rest of the country, and you couldn't do anything about it, wouldn't you want another country to help you?
If that wasn't the first such occasion, I would've fled the country by then.
And I sure as shit wouldn't want the country that put that dictator in power to come 'liberate' us. 20 bucks says the next guy/girl we put in becomes a power-filthy dictator in twenty years and we have to go back in.
*Side Note* Look at what happened to California's economy with a Democrat behind the wheel. It doesn't get any worse than that.
That's bullshit, you can't fault the entire Democratic party on one occurrence.
Also, many wars have been fought in God's name.
Yeah, it's called terrorism. The phrase "G-d Bless America" is horseshit - it completely ignores separation of church and state foundations and basically says that we have a divine power backing whatever decisions we make. Aren't there this smattering of Muslim groups that feel the same way?
our friends and family giving up their lives so we can sit here from our homes and universities and places across this country, and talk how freely we do.
"Talk how freely we do?" You mean like that first amendment thing that through insane actions (Patriot Act, anyone?) Bush is trying to get removed? Oh? That right? Okay, just checking.
Fuck you Hippies! P.S. And you know what??? I have tons of friends that are in the army (best friend, and my brother to name 2) and they WANT TO BE THERE! So fuck you people that say "Bush is sending our troops, are children to die" Shut the fuck up already, almost all of the want to be there and want to fight.
So they want to blindly follow someone and go off killing strangers? Call me a "hippie," I just find that a little odd.
Granted weve lost a few hundred soldiers, but that could happens at any time anywhere.
I personally think the Democrats and liars and are full of bullshit. They cant find any real issues to hit on so they bitch about little issues that really mean nothing.
So a few hundred lives is a small issue? Way to go. I'd call you Adolf but I really don't want to resort to name-calling ad hominems.
The statement "God Bless America" is not bullshit. When our country, and our country's laws, were based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, you cannot deny that fact and say God does not have a part in our lives.
The separation of Church and state was to make sure that no theocracy would come into power, AND to make sure gov't will not corrupt religion, or bend a religion to it's own purposes (aka Church of England)
Most people in this country believe in God, and think that God plays a large part in their lives. You can't forget that. To penalize the majority of people because a few people are offended (not persecuted, offended), would be undemocratic.
So I'll wave my flags (United States Colors and USMC), and keep on saying "God Bless America", thank you.
BTW.... when did God become a swear, where you can't even write out the word on the board?
"Talk how freely we do?" You mean like that first amendment thing that through insane actions (Patriot Act, anyone?) Bush is trying to get removed? Oh? That right? Okay, just checking.
So they want to blindly follow someone and go off killing strangers? Call me a "hippie," I just find that a little odd.
So a few hundred lives is a small issue? Way to go. I'd call you Adolf but I really don't want to resort to name-calling ad hominems.[/QUOTE]
A few things....
First off, a question. How does the Patriot Act violate your first amendment rights? I'd really like to know that. If it did, all these people speaking out would be carted away. The Patriot Act is a good thing (in my eyes, at least), and has already led to the capture of a few people who fund terrorism. Without the patriot act, this wouldn't have been possible.
Secondly, I think your comment about "blindly following" is disgusting. I think all of the soldiers, airmen, sailors, and marines in theater are over there to protect America. True, they're "killing strangers", in the hopes of saving future American lives. I think the soldiers in WWII killed strangers. And so did people in the Civil War. And in the First Gulf War, and the Revolutionary War. You really should think about what you said. I volunteered to go to Iraq. Why? Because maybe in my actions, I'd protect the lives of innocent people further down the road. I'm willing to give my life to make sure no American is killed by a terrorist again.
Thirdly. What we accomplished with the minimal loss of live is amazing. We defeated a country with a loss of less than 500 people. It's an amazing military victory. Sure, every life lost is a tragedy. But if you take it into perspective, over 500,000 lives were lost at the Battle of the Somme in WWI, and 60,000 in the first hour. And at Normandy, we lost thousands of men to gain a foothold in mainland Europe.
Please don't say people in the military "blindly follow" the President. That's degrading to the men, and just flat out disgusting.
fballstar7431
02/10/04, 10:22 AM
I love this post. The republicans on here have made awesome points, all of the ones I was going to post. Lincoln is the the only president to handle a war the ideal way. FDR prevented Jewish refugees from coming to America, and dropped two nukes on two major cities. And don't say that 100s of Americans are going to their deaths in Iraq. The actual count is very low, lower than deaths that occur in non-war conflicts. Just because Clinton didn't declare war in Bosnia doesn't mean he never sent American soldiers to die. I also liked the point that you can't be "a monday morning quarterback" about this now. The information that our country has about Iraq has improved. I personally am glad that Bush didn't wait around for a hostile country with terrorist networks (Bush never said Al-Queda relations, just terrorist relations, he didn't lie) to target our soil again. If there's one thing I can say about Bush, it's that when he says he's going to do something, he does it. He doesn't dick around and waste time. Another thing about him is that you can read him by watching his face. Clinton had a knack of pulling the wool over our eyes. I'm voting Bush. This democrat bitching is getting old. The more you complain the more I want to vote the other side, your just lucky I wanted Bush to begin with. God himself couldn't have saved us after 9/11 if that robot Al "I invented the Internet" Gore had won.
First of all, I need to say that you are the smartest man in the world. Not only are all of your points incredible, but your information is 100% accurate. (That was sarcasm). First of all, FDR did not drop the atomic bombs on Japan. Yes, he did play a big part in the development of them, but it was Truman who actually went and ordered them to be dropped. FDR was a great president, as is evident from the 4 years that he served in office. If Bush had even 1/10th of FDR's accomplishments, I might be able to say he is a decent president at best. Bush will run this country into the ground, however none of you "patriots" see this. I love the fact that a lot of republicans say that I am not patriotic because I want Bush out of office. Maybe it's just the fact that I am educated and see how horrible of a job he is doing. That's all for now.
InaGreendase
02/10/04, 10:40 AM
BTW.... when did God become a swear, where you can't even write out the word on the board?
It's not a curse word. I spell G-d the way I do because it's an orthodox Jewish belief that prevents me from including the actual acknowledgment of His name. The belief goes that it should be only fully spelled out with the 'o' in prayer books.
FYI, I'm reform, not orthodox, but it's just a belief I stick by. I agree His name shouldn't be kicked around like a soda can.
SwingingMics
02/10/04, 10:59 AM
Voting Bush.
It's not a curse word. I spell G-d the way I do because it's an orthodox Jewish belief that prevents me from including the actual acknowledgment of His name. The belief goes that it should be only fully spelled out with the 'o' in prayer books.
FYI, I'm reform, not orthodox, but it's just a belief I stick by. I agree His name shouldn't be kicked around like a soda can.
I feel like an ass now. Sorry about that. Misinterpreted you.
First of all, I need to say that you are the smartest man in the world. Not only are all of your points incredible, but your information is 100% accurate. (That was sarcasm). First of all, FDR did not drop the atomic bombs on Japan. Yes, he did play a big part in the development of them, but it was Truman who actually went and ordered them to be dropped. FDR was a great president, as is evident from the 4 years that he served in office. If Bush had even 1/10th of FDR's accomplishments, I might be able to say he is a decent president at best. Bush will run this country into the ground, however none of you "patriots" see this. I love the fact that a lot of republicans say that I am not patriotic because I want Bush out of office. Maybe it's just the fact that I am educated and see how horrible of a job he is doing. That's all for now.
Yes. All people voting for Bush are unintelligent. You're the fucking Einstein of Politics. Can I rub your belly for political guidance, oh buddha of the ways of government? Can I sit under your bo tree and meditate for 40 days to become 1/10th as enlightened as you are?
Unpatriotic or not, calling yourself more educated than other people because they don't agree with your opinion makes you simple-minded.
SwingingMics
02/10/04, 11:46 AM
Yes. All people voting for Bush are unintelligent. You're the fucking Einstein of Politics. Can I rub your belly for political guidance, oh buddha of the ways of government? Can I sit under your bo tree and meditate for 40 days to become 1/10th as enlightened as you are?
Unpatriotic or not, calling yourself more educated than other people because they don't agree with your opinion makes you simple-minded.
Why are all people voting for Bush unintelligent? That might be the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.
UndefinedBoy
02/10/04, 12:01 PM
I don't quite understand all this talk of what we "accomplished." Most of you act like we're done over there. Sure, we got Saddam, now lets take out some of those troops, spread em out a bit, and take away the tanks...because it's so calm there now. Forget all the buses blowing up and all the innocent Iraqis being killed daily, because WE CAUGHT SADDAM, EVERYTHING IS JUST FUCKING PEACHY NOW. This isn't over, we can't just blow a country up and then leave it to itself to "self-govern." Soon enough we'll put a puppet in, let him fuck up the place, and then in 20 years we'll take him out put someone else in. It's the American way. Remember Afghanistan? We should clean that shit up too.
About the bin Laden family...I don't care how good of friends Bush is with them. AT LEAST HAVE THEM QUESTIONED about their son before flying them to safety (while all other flights were grounded, might I add). They might have known something, right?
Like others have said, the liberals on this board aren't presenting themselves too well (Tony's post was great, though). But that doesn't mean the conservatives are either. Like that one person who acted as though Bush was the human incarnation of God himself as he fought off the evil-doers in the wake of 9/11! Right.
I love how its always being said that Bush's information was the same as Clinton's, but at least he acted on it. You know the information was wrong, right? Don't praise him because he acted on false pretenses while Clinton "didn't have the balls to." That really doesn't help your case...at all.
We could not have prevented 9/11. We cannot prevent terrorism at all. With every new law we enact we piss off someone new, and every terrorist leader we bring to justice, another one pops up in his place. You all need to realize that a "War on Terror" is doing nothing other than creating more terrorists. Terrorism has always existed and will always exist and you cannot simply stomp it out as Bush thinks he can. He's only making our future more bleak.
Why are all people voting for Bush unintelligent? That might be the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.
Bro.... I'm voting for Bush. It was sarcasm. I really didn't want to rub the guys gut, and I don't think he's the einstein of American politics. He said that he was more educated than people who support the president. I said he's a dumbass.
Calm down. Bush in '04.
I am an idiot though.... I'll give you that.
SwingingMics
02/10/04, 12:13 PM
I don't quite understand all this talk of what we "accomplished." Most of you act like we're done over there. Sure, we got Saddam, now lets take out some of those troops, spread em out a bit, and take away the tanks...because it's so calm there now. Forget all the buses blowing up and all the innocent Iraqis being killed daily, because WE CAUGHT SADDAM, EVERYTHING IS JUST FUCKING PEACHY NOW. This isn't over, we can't just blow a country up and then leave it to itself to "self-govern." Soon enough we'll put a puppet in, let him fuck up the place, and then in 20 years we'll take him out put someone else in. It's the American way. Remember Afghanistan? We should clean that shit up too.
I know you don't believe that bullshit you wrote about us not having done anything to clean up Afghanistan, BUT, in case you did, here is what we, the US have done:
Rebuilding Afghanistan Fact Sheet
The United States and Afghanistan share a common vision for an Afghanistan that is prosperous, democratic, self-governing, market friendly and respectful of human rights
Health
Afghanistan has improved its health care system, with the help of $23 million from the U.S. Since April 2002, Afghanistan has:
Improved access to primary health care for 2 million Afghans living in rural areas
Vaccinated 4.3 million children against measles and treated 700,000 cases of malaria
Rebuilt 72 hospitals, clinics, and women’s healthcare centers
Planned to build or rehabilitate 550 health care centers
Provided medicine and equipment to 68 clinics
Provided 120,000 insecticide-treated bed nets
Revitalized the polio eradication program’s surveillance system
Revised the national curriculum for midwives
Infrastructure
The U.S. has pledged $80 million to help Afghanistan rehabilitate the main road connecting Kabul, Kandahar, and Herat. Construction of the Kabul-Kandahar portion is slated for completion next year. The U.S. is also helping to:
Repair and reconstruct 31 bridges and more than 2,485 miles of roads
Provide $1.6 million to winterize the Salang tunnel/highway
Repair more than 6,000 water wells, canals, dams and water systems
Education
The UN expects 4 million to enroll for the new school year that begins in March. Today, 3 million are enrolled. Most Afghan children didn’t attend school in 2001. Afghanistan has, with U.S. assistance:
Provided more than 15 million textbooks
Provided 30,000 instructional kits
Offered salary supplements to more than 50,000 teachers
Rebuilt or rehabilitated more than 250 schools
Provided refresher training to 1,360 teachers and trained 60 teacher trainers
Empowering Women
Afghanistan is dedicated to improving the lives of women. The U.S. is helping by:
Providing $8 million for women’s resource centers
Afghan National Army
The Afghan government plans to create an army of 70,000 to defend their country. The 6th Battalion, Afghan National Army finished basic training on February 9, yielding nearly 600 more troops for the central government. The U.S. is:
Providing assistance for military infrastructure, training, and equipment, utilizing $150 million from the Afghan Freedom Support Act
Alternated with the coalition military partners as trainers for each class of Afghan recruits trained at the Kabul Military Training Center
Read up before you write a comment.
I don't quite understand all this talk of what we "accomplished." Most of you act like we're done over there. Sure, we got Saddam, now lets take out some of those troops, spread em out a bit, and take away the tanks...because it's so calm there now. Forget all the buses blowing up and all the innocent Iraqis being killed daily, because WE CAUGHT SADDAM, EVERYTHING IS JUST FUCKING PEACHY NOW. This isn't over, we can't just blow a country up and then leave it to itself to "self-govern." Soon enough we'll put a puppet in, let him fuck up the place, and then in 20 years we'll take him out put someone else in. It's the American way. Remember Afghanistan? We should clean that shit up too.
About the bin Laden family...I don't care how good of friends Bush is with them. AT LEAST HAVE THEM QUESTIONED about their son before flying them to safety (while all other flights were grounded, might I add). They might have known something, right?
Like others have said, the liberals on this board aren't presenting themselves too well (Tony's post was great, though). But that doesn't mean the conservatives are either. Like that one person who acted as though Bush was the human incarnation of God himself as he fought off the evil-doers in the wake of 9/11! Right.
I love how its always being said that Bush's information was the same as Clinton's, but at least he acted on it. You know the information was wrong, right? Don't praise him because he acted on false pretenses while Clinton "didn't have the balls to." That really doesn't help your case...at all.
We could not have prevented 9/11. We cannot prevent terrorism at all. With every new law we enact we piss off someone new, and every terrorist leader we bring to justice, another one pops up in his place. You all need to realize that a "War on Terror" is doing nothing other than creating more terrorists. Terrorism has always existed and will always exist and you cannot simply stomp it out as Bush thinks he can. He's only making our future more bleak.
We're not done. Not by a long shot. We shouldn't pull out as soon as we are. That's the president's opponents saying "he doesn't have a way out". So the President is acting. Wrongly, but he's acting. You know, no one ever asked about our "out strategy" for Japan and Germany. Wait a minute.... we're still there!
What we have accomplished:
1) Hospitals are operating at levels unseen in the history of Saddam's rule
2) Schools are at a better level than before Saddam.
3) Women can actually live their lives now, without fear of rape or torture for speaking their mind. They can also get an education.
4) Saddam is out of power
5) The terrorists in Iraq are running scared.
Seems like alot in the past 8 months to me. Maybe the UN could have done a better job. Or not. We'll never know, because they never acted.
About the suicide bombings..... You know that Germany had hold-outs in the black forest and in the mountains that killed Allies well into 1946. Not as severe as in Iraq, but it still occured.
InaGreendase
02/10/04, 12:24 PM
I feel like an ass now. Sorry about that. Misinterpreted you.
NP. I'm not well-informed on many non-Judaic beliefs. Let's agree to disagree.
open mind
02/10/04, 12:38 PM
We're not done. Not by a long shot. We shouldn't pull out as soon as we are. That's the president's opponents saying "he doesn't have a way out". So the President is acting. Wrongly, but he's acting. You know, no one ever asked about our "out strategy" for Japan and Germany. Wait a minute.... we're still there!
What we have accomplished:
1) Hospitals are operating at levels unseen in the history of Saddam's rule
2) Schools are at a better level than before Saddam.
3) Women can actually live their lives now, without fear of rape or torture for speaking their mind. They can also get an education.
4) Saddam is out of power
5) The terrorists in Iraq are running scared.
Seems like alot in the past 8 months to me. Maybe the UN could have done a better job. Or not. We'll never know, because they never acted.
About the suicide bombings..... You know that Germany had hold-outs in the black forest and in the mountains that killed Allies well into 1946. Not as severe as in Iraq, but it still occured.
the only reason the hospitals are running at a such high level is that they are packed with wounded iraqi civilians thanks to our bombing (including illegal cluster bombs)and shooting.
how do you know schools are better now? because our government which hasn't exactly been 100 percent accurate when it comes to iraq told you?i doubt if we've done alot of teacher training in the time we've been there.
if the terrorists are running scared why is it that we've been hit with more terrorist attacks in the last year than in the entire history of our nation?
the baathist party that along with saddam was running one of the loosest (as in least radical religiously) islamic governments in the mid east,the women had it better under them than saudi women do now.
NP. I'm not well-informed on many non-Judaic beliefs. Let's agree to disagree.
I agree.
the only reason the hospitals are running at a such high level is that they are packed with wounded iraqi civilians thanks to our bombing (including illegal cluster bombs)and shooting.
how do you know schools are better now? because our government which hasn't exactly been 100 percent accurate when it comes to iraq told you?i doubt if we've done alot of teacher training in the time we've been there.
if the terrorists are running scared why is it that we've been hit with more terrorist attacks in the last year than in the entire history of our nation?
the baathist party that along with saddam was running one of the loosest (as in least radical religiously) islamic governments in the mid east,the women had it better under them than saudi women do now.
Because...... I was fucking there!!! I was fucking there, sweet Jesus, I was fucking there! That's why I know. I'm doing the "I was fucking there!!!" Dance right now. It involves lots of pelvic thrusts.....I also know people there who are involved in the infrastructure rebuilding (schools, etc.). They're doing very well.
Anywho... an international court declared cluster bombs illegal. Which might be against the Geneva Conventions, but we never signed them. So our so-called "illegal" munitions were legal to use.
The women might have had more rights in Saudi, but that's like saying "This dude was beheaded, while this other dude was suffocated". And even though Saudi Arabia is horrible when it comes to woman's rights, you still had fucking rape rooms over there with those good old lovers of humanity, the Baathists.
Imagine if the hosiptals were still in the conditions they were in before. Imagine how many more would have died. And the ones in the hospital right now aren't from our cluster bombs. They're from their own neighbors there, buckshot.
I really don't think "we", meaning America, has been hit by any terrorist attacks this year.... sans the Ricin attack. Those bastards attacking our troops need to get hit, and hit hard.
open mind
02/10/04, 01:15 PM
Because...... I was fucking there!!! I was fucking there, sweet Jesus, I was fucking there! That's why I know. I'm doing the "I was fucking there!!!" Dance right now. It involves lots of pelvic thrusts.....I also know people there who are involved in the infrastructure rebuilding (schools, etc.). They're doing very well.
Anywho... an international court declared cluster bombs illegal. Which might be against the Geneva Conventions, but we never signed them. So our so-called "illegal" munitions were legal to use.
The women might have had more rights in Saudi, but that's like saying "This dude was beheaded, while this other dude was suffocated". And even though Saudi Arabia is horrible when it comes to woman's rights, you still had fucking rape rooms over there with those good old lovers of humanity, the Baathists.
Imagine if the hosiptals were still in the conditions they were in before. Imagine how many more would have died. And the ones in the hospital right now aren't from our cluster bombs. They're from their own neighbors there, buckshot.
I really don't think "we", meaning America, has been hit by any terrorist attacks this year.... sans the Ricin attack. Those bastards attacking our troops need to get hit, and hit hard.
suicide bombers in palestine are considered terrorists but they aren't when they are in iraq?
you weren't there before we went into iraq were you so how do you know it's so much better now?
if giving women there rights is such a big deal why aren't we fighting for their rights in saudi arabia,another country with a fucked up human rights record.
so there are no citizens who are in the hospitals now who have been hit by our bombs or been shot with our guns?i find that impossible to believe.
open mind
02/10/04, 01:23 PM
another thing shit in iraq was in poor condition because of us.
remember the first gulf war,and then all the sanctions we imposed on them?
another thing shit in iraq was in poor condition because of us.
remember the first gulf war,and then all the sanctions we imposed on them?
All Saddam had to do was show any records of his WMD's. Did he do that? No. Did he violate countless UN SC resolutions? Yes. If he didn't do this, would sanctions have been lifted? Yes. If sanctions were lifted, would Saddam have used the money he made on helping the population. Probably not. He would blame horrible living conditions on us anyway.
And it wasn't just us. It was the United Nations doing the whole sanctioning thing, buckshot. And they could have repealed it. They actually repealed part of it (Oil for Food program), but Saddam didn't use the money to feed his people, did he?
open mind
02/10/04, 01:52 PM
All Saddam had to do was show any records of his WMD's. Did he do that? No. Did he violate countless UN SC resolutions? Yes. If he didn't do this, would sanctions have been lifted? Yes. If sanctions were lifted, would Saddam have used the money he made on helping the population. Probably not. He would blame horrible living conditions on us anyway.
And it wasn't just us. It was the United Nations doing the whole sanctioning thing, buckshot. And they could have repealed it. They actually repealed part of it (Oil for Food program), but Saddam didn't use the money to feed his people, did he?
it's funny that the body that had the sanctions put in place didn't think it was worth going to war over huh?
why do we act so high and mighty about international law when we've broken a few just starting this war but i don't see any countries threatening war on us for it?
suicide bombers in palestine are considered terrorists but they aren't when they are in iraq?
you weren't there before we went into iraq were you so how do you know it's so much better now?
if giving women there rights is such a big deal why aren't we fighting for their rights in saudi arabia,another country with a fucked up human rights record.
so there are no citizens who are in the hospitals now who have been hit by our bombs or been shot with our guns?i find that impossible to believe.
Ok... I guess the cafe downtown in your hometown was blown up by a suicide bomber today. America (the country where freedom prospers), hasn't been hit by a terrorist attack since Sept. 11th. Our troops are fighting a war. They're getting hit with terrorist attacks.
How do I know it's better now? Because their living conditions have gotten better. Go ask them. Talk to them. Wait.... I don't think you're able to. You haven't talked to an Iraqi Citizen. You don't know what they went through.
I have an idea.... Let's blame America for everything wrong in Iraq. It can't be Saddam's fault. Or his loyalists fault. Or Al-Qaeda's fault. It's all our fault. Can you name the last time we dropped bombs in Iraq? Do you know over 95% of our munitions used were GPS or laser guided? I'm sorry to say this, but people die in wars. That's what happens. If people die, and this will sound really callous, so be it. It happens. If you lived through WWII, would you be whining about the "poor German population, who is in hospitals because of our bombs and bullets. Our bombs that were illegally dropped on population centers!" Give me a break.
I'd say the majority (well over 85%) of Iraqi Citizens in hospitals were put there by an attack by an Arab brother. If we put someone there, sorry... shit happens. It's a war. Casualties happen. It's horrible, but it happens. Deal.
it's funny that the body that had the sanctions put in place didn't think it was worth going to war over huh?
why do we act so high and mighty about international law when we've broken a few just starting this war but i don't see any countries threatening war on us for it?
Because the UN isn't relevant anymore. It couldn't enforce it's own resolutions. Just like the League of Nations.
Because we don't theaten peaceful people and nations. Give it a rest with "we break laws too". Don't compare the United States to Iraq
open mind
02/10/04, 02:11 PM
Ok... I guess the cafe downtown in your hometown was blown up by a suicide bomber today. America (the country where freedom prospers), hasn't been hit by a terrorist attack since Sept. 11th. Our troops are fighting a war. They're getting hit with terrorist attacks.
How do I know it's better now? Because their living conditions have gotten better. Go ask them. Talk to them. Wait.... I don't think you're able to. You haven't talked to an Iraqi Citizen. You don't know what they went through.
I have an idea.... Let's blame America for everything wrong in Iraq. It can't be Saddam's fault. Or his loyalists fault. Or Al-Qaeda's fault. It's all our fault. Can you name the last time we dropped bombs in Iraq? Do you know over 95% of our munitions used were GPS or laser guided? I'm sorry to say this, but people die in wars. That's what happens. If people die, and this will sound really callous, so be it. It happens. If you lived through WWII, would you be whining about the "poor German population, who is in hospitals because of our bombs and bullets. Our bombs that were illegally dropped on population centers!" Give me a break.
I'd say the majority (well over 85%) of Iraqi Citizens in hospitals were put there by an attack by an Arab brother. If we put someone there, sorry... shit happens. It's a war. Casualties happen. It's horrible, but it happens. Deal.
soldiers getting attacked by terrorists are attacks on america.
alright who is gonna say we want saddam back to an american soldiers face,no one because that's sure to get them locked up for being a radical.
america has created the current situation first through lies to build up support for war,then through not having a real plan for post-war iraq in place,disolving the iraqi army was a mistake,and the state of the country was bad because we had blown it all to shit a decade earlier.
wwll and the war in iraq are completly different because hitler was auctually trying to take over the world,saddam was not in possesion of wmds.one war was fought for what the government said the other war was fought on the strength of what we now know to be bullshit.
you know what cracks me up? the other day bush was quoted as saying"no cause justifies the killing of innocent life" that my friend is priceless hypocrisy.
are you a statistician? no, so quit giving me guesstimates.
guided missles sometimes have a way of not going where you tell them.
open mind
02/10/04, 02:14 PM
Because the UN isn't relevant anymore. It couldn't enforce it's own resolutions. Just like the League of Nations.
Because we don't theaten peaceful people and nations. Give it a rest with "we break laws too". Don't compare the United States to Iraq
we've broken just as many international laws as iraq.
if the u.n. isn't relevant why are we using their resolutions as exuses to go to war?
open mind
02/10/04, 02:23 PM
apperently the u.n. is only relevant when we want them to be.
soldiers getting attacked by terrorists are attacks on america.
alright who is gonna say we want saddam back to an american soldiers face,no one because that's sure to get them locked up for being a radical.
america has created the current situation first through lies to build up support for war,then through not having a real plan for post-war iraq in place,disolving the iraqi army was a mistake,and the state of the country was bad because we had blown it all to shit a decade earlier.
wwll and the war in iraq are completly different because hitler was auctually trying to take over the world,saddam was not in possesion of wmds.one war was fought for what the government said the other war was fought on the strength of what we now know to be bullshit.
you know what cracks me up? the other day bush was quoted as saying"no cause justifies the killing of innocent life" that my friend is priceless hypocrisy.
are you a statistician? no, so quit giving me guesstimates.
guided missles sometimes have a way of not going where you tell them.
Number 1, I'm a Marine. Not a soldier.
Number 2, Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. We don't know what happened to them. They could be in Syria (my guess). They could be buried. He had them. He used them. Are you denying the fact?
Number 3, Innocent lives aren't soldier raising arms against the US. They aren't innocent. They're firing on our soldiers, for christs sake. If minimal civilian casualties die, that's a good thing. They're going to happen.
And I'll give you guesstimates, because they're ballpark figures. I don't think anyone in the public sector knows the exact percentage of guided vs. unguided munitions. And the actual number is probably classified.
Did I compare the wars? You'd be saying the same exact things you're saying about the war now.
And the accuracy of a guided bomb, missle, whatever... is now measured in feet (some are in inches). We can determine within a few feet what target we want to hit. Compare that to the hundreds of feet with unguided munitions.
And back to the cluster bomb "illegality".... do you know that we are now using weapons with GPS guided cluster munitons? This decreases the possibility of civilian casualties, and brings this illegality into question.
How did America lie? And I would like to know how this war affected you personally. Did you ration anything? Any hardships involved? Did you send anything to troops overseas, you caring person you?
open mind
02/10/04, 02:47 PM
Number 1, I'm a Marine. Not a soldier.
Number 2, Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. We don't know what happened to them. They could be in Syria (my guess). They could be buried. He had them. He used them. Are you denying the fact?
Number 3, Innocent lives aren't soldier raising arms against the US. They aren't innocent. They're firing on our soldiers, for christs sake. If minimal civilian casualties die, that's a good thing. They're going to happen.
And I'll give you guesstimates, because they're ballpark figures. I don't think anyone in the public sector knows the exact percentage of guided vs. unguided munitions. And the actual number is probably classified.
Did I compare the wars? You'd be saying the same exact things you're saying about the war now.
And the accuracy of a guided bomb, missle, whatever... is now measured in feet (some are in inches). We can determine within a few feet what target we want to hit. Compare that to the hundreds of feet with unguided munitions.
And back to the cluster bomb "illegality".... do you know that we are now using weapons with GPS guided cluster munitons? This decreases the possibility of civilian casualties, and brings this illegality into question.
How did America lie? And I would like to know how this war affected you personally. Did you ration anything? Any hardships involved? Did you send anything to troops overseas, you caring person you?
really? where were you stationed? i've got some buddies in the marines and my brother in law's a former marine.the guy still has nightmares.
it's proven he had them ten years ago show me the proof he had them last year.
yeah you did compare the wars when you brought up germany.no i wouldn't because a year after wwll there was plenty of proof backing the case for it.
ballpark figures given to you by your superiors,are more likely figures meant to keep up morale.
the biggest factor in building up support for the war was that saddam was in possesion of wmds something that has not been backed up by any proof without proof things are considered false.as in a lie.
guided munitions don't always work the way you want them to and sometimes stray off target or am i wrong.
One thing to throw out. You can hate the war. You can hate the methods to how we get there, and you can believe that Iraq was a peaceful nation that wanted to do no harm to anyone. Fine. Ok.
Don't tell me the Iraqi's were better off under Saddam. There is no way. The things we found there (mass graves, toture and rape rooms.... they actually existed. They were found by American forces, some of them personal friends) and the things we've done for the citizens are more than I can mention. We're doing a good job over there. I really wish you could experience it firsthand, but unless you've been there, you can't understand what the people over there are going through.
open mind
02/10/04, 02:51 PM
as a marine you are given a limited view of things in order to keep your head clear so you don't get your head blown off because your worried about morals,and the possibilitie that what you are doing is wrong.especailly if your a marine with basic training that includes brainwashing techniques and generally insists you don't question anything.
open mind
02/10/04, 02:54 PM
One thing to throw out. You can hate the war. You can hate the methods to how we get there, and you can believe that Iraq was a peaceful nation that wanted to do no harm to anyone. Fine. Ok.
Don't tell me the Iraqi's were better off under Saddam. There is no way. The things we found there (mass graves, toture and rape rooms.... they actually existed. They were found by American forces, some of them personal friends) and the things we've done for the citizens are more than I can mention. We're doing a good job over there. I really wish you could experience it firsthand, but unless you've been there, you can't understand what the people over there are going through.
so we're in people saving buisness now?i guess it's on to saudi arabia,korea,and the republic formerly known as burma then.
not gonna happen the war was simply a personel vendetta that bush wanted to settle no matter what the cost.
really? where were you stationed? i've got some buddies in the marines and my brother in law's a former marine.the guy still has nightmares.
it's proven he had them ten years ago show me the proof he had them last year.
yeah you did compare the wars when you brought up germany.no i wouldn't because a year after wwll there was plenty of proof backing the case for it.
ballpark figures given to you by your superiors,are more likely figures meant to keep up morale.
the biggest factor in building up support for the war was that saddam was in possesion of wmds something that has not been backed up by any proof without proof things are considered false.as in a lie.
guided munitions don't always work the way you want them to and sometimes stray off target or am i wrong.
Was stationed Marine Air Control Squadron 24. Over in Area of Operations for over 9 months. Discharged Sept, 2003 honorably.
I'm sorry to break the news to you, but figures don't help morale. You think we really cared how many Iraqis were in a hospital, or the % of them put in there by Iraqis or Americans? No. We were doing our job. The only figures we cared about were how many Americans were injured, captured or killed
I'm glad you knew my CO's mindset. And his ideas behind his actions. They didn't need to keep our morale up. We knew what we were there for, and we did it.
You are right. Guided munitions do stray off course. But it's very rare. And GPS' can be jammed (jammers sold by Russia were found in Iraq).
I saw some of the intelligence the Pres. saw (not all), and it was damning. Convincing. Even Saddam believed he had chemical weapons ready to launch at a moments notice. I think those weapons do exist. I don't know where they are. But they will show up sooner or later.
so we're in people saving buisness now?i guess it's on to saudi arabia,korea,and the republic formerly known as burma then.
not gonna happen the war was simply a personel vendetta that bush wanted to settle no matter what the cost.
That's fucking ridiculous. That's just fucking ridiculous.
as a marine you are given a limited view of things in order to keep your head clear so you don't get your head blown off because your worried about morals,and the possibilitie that what you are doing is wrong.especailly if your a marine with basic training that includes brainwashing techniques and generally insists you don't question anything.
Dude, your perception of the military is so off base. That is a fucking ignorant statement, and an insult to anyone who serves.
open mind
02/10/04, 03:04 PM
really?the only argument for war that has stood up to the test of time has been that saddam was bad to his people.so if having a bad human rights record was enough reason to go after saddam why isn't it a good enough reason to go after other countries?
open mind
02/10/04, 03:06 PM
Dude, your perception of the military is so off base. That is a fucking ignorant statement, and an insult to anyone who serves.
so questioning your superiors when in war is encouraged?that's a new one on me.
i know plenty of people currently serving and i know plenty of veterans,i go by what they tell me.
so we're in people saving buisness now?i guess it's on to saudi arabia,korea,and the republic formerly known as burma then.
not gonna happen the war was simply a personel vendetta that bush wanted to settle no matter what the cost.
Did I say we're in the saving business? NO! I said the Iraqis are better off now then they were before. Which they are.
so questioning your superiors when in war is encouraged?that's a new one on me.
i know plenty of people currently serving and i know plenty of veterans,i go by what they tell me.
Not questioning your superior is being brainwashed?
open mind
02/10/04, 03:08 PM
Was stationed Marine Air Control Squadron 24. Over in Area of Operations for over 9 months. Discharged Sept, 2003 honorably.
I'm sorry to break the news to you, but figures don't help morale. You think we really cared how many Iraqis were in a hospital, or the % of them put in there by Iraqis or Americans? No. We were doing our job. The only figures we cared about were how many Americans were injured, captured or killed
I'm glad you knew my CO's mindset. And his ideas behind his actions. They didn't need to keep our morale up. We knew what we were there for, and we did it.
You are right. Guided munitions do stray off course. But it's very rare. And GPS' can be jammed (jammers sold by Russia were found in Iraq).
I saw some of the intelligence the Pres. saw (not all), and it was damning. Convincing. Even Saddam believed he had chemical weapons ready to launch at a moments notice. I think those weapons do exist. I don't know where they are. But they will show up sooner or later.
why doesn't the world get to see this "damning intelligence" maybe because it won't stand up by itself?
open mind
02/10/04, 03:09 PM
Not questioning your superior is being brainwashed?
i didn't say you were brain washed i said the marines basic training includes brainwashing techniques,and teaches you not to question them.
open mind
02/10/04, 03:13 PM
Did I say we're in the saving business? NO! I said the Iraqis are better off now then they were before. Which they are.
being that the only reason for war that has stood up is that saddam was a bad guy,why did we only go after this one bad guy in a world full of them?
because bush wanted to,no more no less.
If you're worth a shit, the CO will take your opinions into consideration. Plus, I wasn't a ground pounder, I was a radar tech. I operate and maintain radars. So I'm only relied on for technical support. True, I can fire a rifle with the best of them, but they wouldn't put me on the front (I volunteered, but they said I was to valuable at the radar site).
being that the only reason for war that has stood up is that saddam was a bad guy,why did we only go after this one bad guy in a world full of them?
because bush wanted to,no more no less.]
Because he was a threat to America.
open mind
02/10/04, 03:16 PM
how so? he certainly doesn't appear to have been on the verge of attacking us like bush said he was.
open mind
02/10/04, 03:31 PM
look i'm sure you think i'm an ass but you should know i'm thankful for your service.my beef is with how your boss runs things.
UndefinedBoy
02/10/04, 05:14 PM
I agree with pretty much everything openmind has said. Saddam was not a threat to the US! Don't even pretend to believe that. We can't even FIND the supposed WMDs, how was he supposed to use them on us? They're obviously not ready to launch on the US...North Korea, however, can reach California. But I'm sure Arnold could take care of that if it ever happens.
And ok, Slater, but I'm not sure I understand all you're saying. You say Iraq is not a personal vendetta, but that Saddam was bad so we needed to get him out. Fine. Time to save the rest of the world if that's Bush's new stance. We can go try and stop the AIDS epidemic in Africa, talk to the Saudis about their human rights record (wait, scratch that, they're an ally so we HAVE to back them).
I'm glad you believed in what you fought for. That's fantastic. But it gets me down to know the US soldiers don't give a damn how many Iraqis are dying. I thought you were there to save them? And please, tell us more about this intelligence you saw.
I appreciate your service, but cmon, think about what you're saying.
farvaxrepublica
02/10/04, 06:21 PM
uh, how about he could of listened to the CIA reports that have come forward saying they had advanced knowledge of Sept 11th.
second, uh .. do more research, there are buckets of documents recently released that say Bin Laden and Hussein had NO sort of ties at all, there were documents seized from Hussein's little rabbit hole thing that verify this as well.
Okay if we're going to talk about "advance knowledge", what about when President Clinton knew Bin Laden's Al - Qaeda was behind the first WTC bombing, the bombing of the USA embassy of Kenya and the U.S.S COAL boming in yeman which killed innocent americans. You never do know mabe Sept. 11th won't be a national tragedy if Bill had the balls to do something like George W. did. I wish people didn't need to have WMD to make this a justified war. War isn't pretty,yes. But people were going to die anyway innocent people who lived under Saddam. I think thats wrong of use to say "well its not our people being killed by Saddam so we will just let him kill all his people". Thats what we'd be doing if we did not stop Saddam. Just think if you lived under Saddam waiting for freedom well your family members were killed.
look i'm sure you think i'm an ass but you should know i'm thankful for your service.my beef is with how your boss runs things.
Wrong!!!! You're opinionated. Can't hate you for that. At least we can argue without resorting to name calling.
Good chat. It's a shame people like you are on the other side. Gives them cred!
I agree with pretty much everything openmind has said. Saddam was not a threat to the US! Don't even pretend to believe that. We can't even FIND the supposed WMDs, how was he supposed to use them on us? They're obviously not ready to launch on the US...North Korea, however, can reach California. But I'm sure Arnold could take care of that if it ever happens.
And ok, Slater, but I'm not sure I understand all you're saying. You say Iraq is not a personal vendetta, but that Saddam was bad so we needed to get him out. Fine. Time to save the rest of the world if that's Bush's new stance. We can go try and stop the AIDS epidemic in Africa, talk to the Saudis about their human rights record (wait, scratch that, they're an ally so we HAVE to back them).
I'm glad you believed in what you fought for. That's fantastic. But it gets me down to know the US soldiers don't give a damn how many Iraqis are dying. I thought you were there to save them? And please, tell us more about this intelligence you saw.
I appreciate your service, but cmon, think about what you're saying.
What in the blue hell (shades of the rock). I didn't care about how many iraqis were dying, during the beginning stages of the war. You have to understand how fluid a battlefield is. At a time when bullets and rockets are firing, are you supposed to care about the guy on the other side? I don't think you can relate. Until you've been in our shoes, you can't get a feel on the situation. Of course any and all lives lost are a tragedy. I think I should have clarified that fact. When shit hits the fan, it's you and your brothers against the bad guys. That's the way it is. Now in a peace keeping situation, you have to think differently. I left before the peace keeping ops began, since you don't need a RADAR to monitor ground traffic. I hope this cleared it up for you.
They had to share with us intelligence about WMD's because of our safety. We would't have our MOPP gear if there was no threat of its use. Up to the war, we were told they had the ability to lauch chemical attacks within 45 minutes of the word being given. This is now common knowledge, that we thought this. It's possible that Saddam's commanders lied to him, and therefore we were fooled, too. I still believe there were weapons.
And there are signs that North Korea and Iran are collapsing from within. Same signs in North Korea that occured in the Soviet Union. We'll see what happens to that, though.
Hope it cleared it up. We're not heartless bastards. We actually care. But the first thing on our mind is the man to our left and right, not the ones firing at us.
And ok, Slater, but I'm not sure I understand all you're saying. You say Iraq is not a personal vendetta, but that Saddam was bad so we needed to get him out. Fine. Time to save the rest of the world if that's Bush's new stance. We can go try and stop the AIDS epidemic in Africa, talk to the Saudis about their human rights record (wait, scratch that, they're an ally so we HAVE to back them).
We call Saudi Arabia out all the time for their human rights violations. The rest of the world really doesn't care what goes on there. They'd rather ask us for slave reparations then get Saudi Arabia to let their women talk in public.
Saddam was a threat, and even David Kay, the Arms inspector, said Iraq was more of a threat than he expected. True, the WMD's might be a question, but Iraq needed to be dealt with.
And about the terrorists being on the run.... Didn't an intercept in Iraq yesterday or today have a Top Al-Qaeda agent say we're suffocating them. They're desparate. They're reaching right now. That's why they are attacking. They want to get the people in Iraq to fight each other before they are united under one gov't (if it's possible. I don't know if it is. The people over there have a completlely different mindset than Americans)
UndefinedBoy
02/10/04, 07:07 PM
Hope it cleared it up. We're not heartless bastards. We actually care. But the first thing on our mind is the man to our left and right, not the ones firing at us.
Hey, I think we misunderstood each other. I didn't mean you didn't care about the guys shooting at you, I thought you were talking about Iraqi civilians whose percentages you didn't care about. Sorry bout that.
Also, I thought you did radar? How much actual combat did you see while doing that? I mean I know very little about the military so sorry if I sound like an ass.
xxHOPESFALLxx
02/10/04, 08:27 PM
you are a fucking dickhead
I'm a dickhead?? How am I a dickhead? What are you gonna cry about it or something? Either make a point worth sharing, or shut up.
NetNerdsRevenge
02/10/04, 08:52 PM
being that the only reason for war that has stood up is that saddam was a bad guy,why did we only go after this one bad guy in a world full of them?
because bush wanted to,no more no less.
I think breaking un resolutions and sanctions is a good enough reason to get rid of saddam. He should of been gone 12 years ago.
open mind
02/10/04, 09:03 PM
I think breaking un resolutions and sanctions is a good enough reason to get rid of saddam. He should of been gone 12 years ago.
i thought the u.n. was irrelevant and didn't matter?
oh that's right we pay attention when they agree with us.
dumbndumber
02/10/04, 10:24 PM
It was quite interesting to read a lot of these responses, but one in general really irked me, especially when it came from a military person (Slater)..."And John Kerry isn't a fucking hero. He threw his medals at the White House, therefore flipping off the memory of all previous winners of the silver star." So this goes out to Slater and anyone else who cares to read it...
The audacity for you to say Kerry "isn't a fucking hero" is incredible, and it is saddening, especially for all that Kerry did for his country during the Vietnam War. He fought in-country, faced the enemy on their turf, saved the lives of the men to his left and right, and came back home highly decorated. To say he isn't a hero because he "threw back" his medals is just plain wrong. There were many reasons why a great number of soldiers threw back their medals, and part of it was because these soldiers wanted to bring to light some of the horrible things that happened over Vietnam which were ignored by the public, and this included discussions about war crimes committed by American servicemen (including the Mai Lai massacre).
For a man to do all that he DID do and say that he is not a hero because he was doing something else he believed in is just wrong. And, the very fact that you are saying he is not a hero and sticking up for a man who served no time in-country at all because he was in the national guard (self-described as: “the Reserves and the Guard acquired reputations as draft havens for relatively affluent young white men,” (the Air National Guard says in a history posted on its Web site.)) is a disgrace to all veterans. Kerry volunteered his military services and actually talked the talk and walked the walk, whereas Bush hid in the National Guard, and as the records show, rarely did his required work, and was able to worm his way out of the required service time to "work" on election campaigns and to go to grad school. If he were a true patriot, he would have stayed in the guard and reported for duty as required (he lost his flying privileges for not showing up for required physicals and exams). and i'm talking kerry vs bush here, not clinton or anyone else... You, slater, owe an apology to the countless veterans who actually served in Vietnam for your distasteful comment. My Uncle was executed over in that country while Bush dicked around on political campaigns and who knows what else during the War. John Kerry is a hero for the real patriotic duties he performed in Vietnam and no medal-tossing can ever take that away from him. Shame on you.
It was quite interesting to read a lot of these responses, but one in general really irked me, especially when it came from a military person (Slater)..."And John Kerry isn't a fucking hero. He threw his medals at the White House, therefore flipping off the memory of all previous winners of the silver star." So this goes out to Slater and anyone else who cares to read it...
The audacity for you to say Kerry "isn't a fucking hero" is incredible, and it is saddening, especially for all that Kerry did for his country during the Vietnam War. He fought in-country, faced the enemy on their turf, saved the lives of the men to his left and right, and came back home highly decorated. To say he isn't a hero because he "threw back" his medals is just plain wrong. There were many reasons why a great number of soldiers threw back their medals, and part of it was because these soldiers wanted to bring to light some of the horrible things that happened over Vietnam which were ignored by the public, and this included discussions about war crimes committed by American servicemen (including the Mai Lai massacre).
For a man to do all that he DID do and say that he is not a hero because he was doing something else he believed in is just wrong. And, the very fact that you are saying he is not a hero and sticking up for a man who served no time in-country at all because he was in the national guard (self-described as: “the Reserves and the Guard acquired reputations as draft havens for relatively affluent young white men,” (the Air National Guard says in a history posted on its Web site.)) is a disgrace to all veterans. Kerry volunteered his military services and actually talked the talk and walked the walk, whereas Bush hid in the National Guard, and as the records show, rarely did his required work, and was able to worm his way out of the required service time to "work" on election campaigns and to go to grad school. If he were a true patriot, he would have stayed in the guard and reported for duty as required (he lost his flying privileges for not showing up for required physicals and exams). and i'm talking kerry vs bush here, not clinton or anyone else... You, slater, owe an apology to the countless veterans who actually served in Vietnam for your distasteful comment. My Uncle was executed over in that country while Bush dicked around on political campaigns and who knows what else during the War. John Kerry is a hero for the real patriotic duties he performed in Vietnam and no medal-tossing can ever take that away from him. Shame on you.
Shame on you for not even thinking about the people who did a hell of a lot more than John Kerry to get the Silver Star. There's a reason why veterans turn their back on the man whenever he speaks at the Vietnam Memorial. I owe no apology to any veteran who served honorably, and HONORED the history of the military. He spit in the face of any vet who won the silver star by throwing a faux medal at the white house, then hanging them on his walls whenever it gave him a political advantage.
And then to dishonor the people serving your country while they die is not "heroic". It's a shame your uncle died. He shouldn't have. But people like John Kerry were the ones who brought about the mindset that our troops were baby killers and cold-blooded murderers. No hero would ever do that.
Do you know any silver star winners? Or for that matter, any purple heart winners? They're proud of what they earned, and how they earned it. They would never, ever disgrace the magnitude of what they did. John Kerry was awarded a great honor, and disgraced it so much by using it as a political tool. Shame on him. And shame on you for defending him
Hey, I think we misunderstood each other. I didn't mean you didn't care about the guys shooting at you, I thought you were talking about Iraqi civilians whose percentages you didn't care about. Sorry bout that.
Also, I thought you did radar? How much actual combat did you see while doing that? I mean I know very little about the military so sorry if I sound like an ass.
We have to move forward to provide the best picture possible. They moved way too fast for us to set up, so for a while we were up with them. It was well planned, but things went too well.
So we saw actually little combat. Very little. We had scares, but nothing much else. The people over there now are seeing much worse than I have seen. But (cliche' time), it's better to fight it over there than on the streets here.
It's ok. We'd never, EVER, and I mean EVER EVER EVER target a civilian. No. Never. Whenever they were killed, like at the roadblocks they tried running, because they were scared of us, it's a horrible thing. Just horrible. You have to get the mindset that "things like that happen". You can't blame yourself. You just have to keep doing your job. It's a hard thing to explain, and probably even harder to deal with. I didn't have to worry about injuring Iraqi Civilians, since we had minimal relations with them.
open mind
02/11/04, 03:05 AM
it's to bad so many soldiers are put into that position in iraq especially when i think about the "reasons" that bush used to get the war started.
it's to bad so many soldiers are put into that position in iraq especially when i think about the "reasons" that bush used to get the war started.
Even after I came home, and looked at everything, I still think this war was justified. Saddams missile programs were at the levels our intelligence indicated (longer ranges than UNSCR's allowed, which was 150 km, or about 93 miles), and I still believe he had chemical weapons.
The UN proving itself irrelevant by it's actions (ie. not enforcing it's resolutions. It should have dealt with Iraq years ago when it threw out the inspectors the first time). UN provides great humanitarian services, even though I think it should be scrapped and started anew. It has become too partisan and biased to be an effective mediating body between disputing factions.
By the way, does Park remind anyone at all of Minus the Bear (off the topic... maybe should be posted in the music section)?
Just my two cents. Any comments on this?
dumbndumber
02/11/04, 05:55 AM
Slater, perhaps you should read a little more into the history of the Vietnam War. Then maybe you'd understand why a large number of veterans came home feeling betrayed by their government. (maybe read up on the Winter Soldier Investigation (1971) or the forming of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (1967)). And yes, I know people who have been decorated with such medals, including my own father and my deceased uncle. My father, and many veterans, can at least connect with Kerry because he fought along side them whereas Bush lived it up back stateside because of his family connections which helped him enter the national guard during a time when there was a long waiting list to get in. So the last thing I'll say in this little rift is that I do enjoy the irony of how you are so criticial of what John Kerry did during the Vietnam War era when you say nothing about George W. Bush and what he didn't do for his country during that time of war (again, what I said before about his National Guard membership). Have a good one (I don't plan on continuing to debate with you because it is obvious we both have our own strong opinions about such things, which is good because it shows we use our brains...)
Slater, perhaps you should read a little more into the history of the Vietnam War. Then maybe you'd understand why a large number of veterans came home feeling betrayed by their government. (maybe read up on the Winter Soldier Investigation (1971) or the forming of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (1967)). And yes, I know people who have been decorated with such medals, including my own father and my deceased uncle. My father, and many veterans, can at least connect with Kerry because he fought along side them whereas Bush lived it up back stateside because of his family connections which helped him enter the national guard during a time when there was a long waiting list to get in. So the last thing I'll say in this little rift is that I do enjoy the irony of how you are so criticial of what John Kerry did during the Vietnam War era when you say nothing about George W. Bush and what he didn't do for his country during that time of war (again, what I said before about his National Guard membership). Have a good one (I don't plan on continuing to debate with you because it is obvious we both have our own strong opinions about such things, which is good because it shows we use our brains...)
You're right. We're both very opinionated people, which is a good thing. If it wasn't for people like us, wouldn't it be a boring place?
I've read about it, and I've read General Giap's (Communist Vietnam's Military leader) 1985 memoirs about the war, and how if it weren't for groups like the Vietnam Veterans against the war (he mentions them by name), they would have given up and quit. That tells me that the blood of thousands of Americans is on this groups hands.
I'm not comparing Bush to Kerry. I don't really know where to stand on his personal record. Bill Clinton was a known draft dodger, running against 2 decorated war vets (Dole and G.H.W. Bush), and no one gave a damn. Now since Kerry is a war hero, and Bush served (I'm not going to comment about the National Guard. They do amazing work when called upon) but didn't go to Vietnam, it's an issue.
I believe Bush is carrying himself well, and I believe we should give him another 4 years in the White House.
But you have a good one, too. Thank your Dad for his service to his country, and once again, I'm sorry for the loss of your Uncle. God Bless.
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