Emo's negative label

[Russ Hockenbury]

Labels have provided the ups and downs of the music industry, providing a sense of pride for some, shaming others into a corner of the room. To cite an example, classic punk bands will fully admit their punkness, as will the critics and fans alike. Pop artists, well, they’ve just received the backlash of the new musical millennium and are now doomed to relive their existence in the background of WB programs.

-Julia Conny

Full article at: http://www.upbeetmusic.com/articlesS.php?id=10

[towhatend]

No.

[SwingingMics]

No.
What he said.

[worldstheory]

This is an extremely touchy subject. I hate to say that I agree with that article, I also hate to say that I disagree. Because frankly, I'm not sure WHAT I think about it. Lately I've taken to the believe that only 80's hardcore emo bands are actual emo, such as Rites of Spring and Still Life. But I'm the farthest thing from the expert on the subject, and I of course have my doubts about whether my own belief is right.

Who decides what emo is anyway? If only the originators of emo are allowed to decide, then only bands like Fugazi, Rites of Spring, and Jawbreaker are emo. If any band who claims to be emo is really emo, then no band is emo. If MTV decides what is emo, then only Dashboard Confessional is emo. If the fans decide what is emo and what is not emo, then we end up with a black hole of contradiction that cannot exist or the whole space-time continuum will collapse. For instance, some people say that anything pop-punk is emo. Some say that any rock music that is "emotional" is emo.

Who decides anyway? I don't really know, so I don't think we should really talk about it.

Emotion is good, and perhaps this new found connection with the inner self is why the emo kids get all the ass. I love this line.

[still_life]

I decide, because I and other emo fans know what's up. That article was terrible. I wouldn't even want to wipe my ass with it. I love how they mention the roots of emo with Rites Of Spring, and say that they were similar to melodic hardcore bands, and then go on to name acoustic bands and pop-punk bands as emo. Nice way to completely ignore these roots you just spoke of. These articles are a dime a dozen anymore. Always the same bands being put in with a scene they have no part in. What that article described to you isn't emo. Emo is the most passionate form of hardcore music you'll ever listen to. Not these cookie-cutter bands who had their names dropped in that article.

[SwingingMics]

I decide, because I and other emo fans know what's up. That article was terrible. I wouldn't even want to wipe my ass with it. I love how they mention the roots of emo with Rites Of Spring, and say that they were similar to melodic hardcore bands, and then go on to name acoustic bands and pop-punk bands as emo. Nice way to completely ignore these roots you just spoke of. These articles are a dime a dozen anymore. Always the same bands being put in with a scene they have no part in. What that article described to you isn't emo. Emo is the most passionate form of hardcore music you'll ever listen to. Not these cookie-cutter bands who had their names dropped in that article.
And also what he said.

[archamedes]

http://www.upbeetmusic.com has alot of really cool stuff going on. That article is touchy - so many people feel on different side of it.

[13th hour]

I decide, because I and other emo fans know what's up. That article was terrible. I wouldn't even want to wipe my ass with it. I love how they mention the roots of emo with Rites Of Spring, and say that they were similar to melodic hardcore bands, and then go on to name acoustic bands and pop-punk bands as emo. Nice way to completely ignore these roots you just spoke of. These articles are a dime a dozen anymore. Always the same bands being put in with a scene they have no part in. What that article described to you isn't emo. Emo is the most passionate form of hardcore music you'll ever listen to. Not these cookie-cutter bands who had their names dropped in that article.

I agree with you, but I also think you have to consider people listening to those bands did other things musically, with the same lyrical message, and so it grew out and out until it has become such a popular genre. Im not saying that The Get Up Kids are "true" emo, but I think that the lyrical messages are very similiar, which just makes it another sub genre of a sub genre of a sub genre of a subgenre. Really, I dont care about what something is labeled as anyway, if I hear about it and I like it, I dont care if you call it "hardcore" or "fuckin flaming monkey farts", its all just music.

[still_life]

lyrics should have nothing to do with what a genre is like. Any band, no matter if they're hardcore, country, rap, or techno, can write any words they want for a song.

[13th hour]

So are you saying that I could rap over some hardcore music (chug chug chug chug schreeee), and it wouldnt be rap, itd be hardcore? Even if I was rapping about fucking bitches, shooting cops, smokin joints and riding on twentys? Hardcore music has a message, all subgenres of punk do. Lyrics do matter. and if they dont, then I think its about damn time a hardcore - gangsta rap subgenre is started up.

[still_life]

whoa whoa whoa, you definitely misread me. You're talking about music there, I'm talking about just words in songs.

I know you know that there are christian hardcore and christian punk bands. Well, religion goes against the ideals of punk, so shouldn't christian hardcore be an oxymoron? See, lyrics aren't that important.

"You've got your roots in the streets - stretch almost four weeks deep. Straight out of Mayberry to claim these city streets. You've got your Nike's, your new-found families. Do what the fuck you please. Rock the spot with your G's with moneys from mommy's and daddy's. You're blowing up the spot, and you've shot up my heart. You make alleys pop. You make bodies drop. Please stop. I've been got. Emergency. "

Sounds like something not hardcore right? Wrong, that's an I Hate Myself song.

[FarPastGone]

I haven't liked any of your articles I have read..........Im sorry

[RefusedsXe]

Nah.

[MrChainsaw389]

There is no emo. after all, it is short for "Emotional." I can think of at least a dozen rap songs that are emotional. Much of Eminem's stuff is emotional. Is he emo? Hey Ya is about breaking up, is it emo? Emo got saddled with a label, when it's what you sing about. I believe that stuff like pop-punk, punk, and hardcore are labels, emo is a type of song. I think it's stupid to give a band a title they do not want, it's nothing but a whole word full of controversy. I'll say it one more time in case you didn't get it the first two times. Emo is a TYPE of song, not a LABEL.

[still_life]

Are you an idiot? It was called emocore before emo, because it's emotional hardcore. It is a sub-genre of hardcore that's 20 years old.

[MrChainsaw389]

:;sigh:: I'm aware of that...but mainstream emo goes from the term "emotional" not from emocore. The music mean obviously changes with the times, cause "emo" bands sound nothing like hardcore

[still_life]

No, mainstream emo doesn't exist. Dashboard Confessional is acoustic. Brand New and Taking Back Sunday are pop-punk. Sunny Day Real Estate and Bright Eyes are indie rock. Thursday and Thrice are melodic hardcore. Nothing to do with emo. You probably couldn't even name an emo band, so I'm not surprised you don't think they sound like hardcore. Listen and learn:

Navio Forge
Still Life
Indian Summer
Policy of 3
Swing Kids
Orchid
Saetia
Neil Perry
You And I
Maximillian Colby
City Of Caterpillar
Circle Takes The Square
The Assistant
Merel
Iconoclast
The Locust
pg. 99
Shotmaker
Cap'n Jazz
I Hate Myself
September
Off Minor
Hot Cross
Envy
Light The Fuse And Run
Racebannon
Clikitat Ikatowi
Transistor Transistor
Wolves
Ampere
Bucket Full Of Teeth
Panthers
Usurp Synapse
Examination Of The...
Portrait
Portraits Of Past
I Would Set Myself On Fire For You
A Petal Fallen
Jasemine
Finger Print
Frail
Embassy
Angel Hair
Heroin
Antioch Arrow
The Van Pelt
Unbroken
Channel
Forcefedglass
Yage
Yaphet Kotto
On The Might Of Princes
Encyclopedia Of American Traitors
Anasarca
End I
The Now
I, Robot
Joshua Fit For Battle
A Days Refrain
1000 Travels Of Jawaharlal
afterschoolknifefight
Amber Inn
An Albatross
Amanda Woodward
Anomie
Calvary
Current
Constatine Sankathi
Balboa
Cobra Kai
Cheerleaders Of The Apocalypse
Combatwoundedveteran
Reversal Of Man
Cowboys Became Folk Heroes
Julia
Kaospilot
Guyver-1
In Loving Memory
Ordination Of Aaron
La Quiete
Kite Flying Society
Love Lost But Not Forgotten
Moss Icon
Kerosene 454
Silver Bearings
Fuel
Makara
Mara'akate
Mohinder
Native Nod
Shikari
Sleepytime Trio
Song Of Zarathustra
The Blood Brothers
Standstill
Sweep The Leg Johnny
Stop It!!
Ten Grand
Lincoln
Hoover
The Hated
Embrace
Rites Of Spring

[towhatend]

I've never heard any of those bands.

well except Fuel, but i thought they were just a shitty rock band.

[MrChainsaw389]

I've heard of two or three of them...

[still_life]

They are. I'm talking about the Fuel from the 80's.

[still_life]

See, 2 or 3. And I listed mostly every essential band in emo's history. Yet, you've only heard 2 or 3, and you're going to try and teach me something about emo.

[MrChainsaw389]

I'm sorry...I'm not an emo expert...this is an opinion based forum isn't it. Chill out jackass.

[still_life]

It is, but it's too bad that you're trying to make your opinion (which is proven incorrect by factual information) fact.

"There is no emo. after all, it is short for "Emotional." I can think of at least a dozen rap songs that are emotional. Much of Eminem's stuff is emotional. Is he emo? Hey Ya is about breaking up, is it emo? Emo got saddled with a label, when it's what you sing about. I believe that stuff like pop-punk, punk, and hardcore are labels, emo is a type of song. I think it's stupid to give a band a title they do not want, it's nothing but a whole word full of controversy. I'll say it one more time in case you didn't get it the first two times. Emo is a TYPE of song, not a LABEL."

Does that really sound like an opinion to you?

[towhatend]

It's funny how this topic comes up at least once a month and everytime you end up setting everybody straight except for one kid who just keeps on going. It's like a reoccuring cycle.

[MrChainsaw389]

"I believe that stuff like pop-punk, punk, and hardcore are labels, emo is a type of song. I think it's stupid to give a band a title they do not want, it's nothing but a whole word full of controversy."

That sounds like an opinion to me.. and there are no "facts" about what is emo or pop-punk or whatever

[still_life]

I know, it's endless.

"I'll say it one more time in case you didn't get it the first two times. Emo is a TYPE of song, not a LABEL."
You're trying to force that way too much right there. And no, you just don't get it. Every emo article (except for this one really ridiculous one I've seen that said Weezer started it) says Rites Of Spring have started emo. Rites Of Spring also started something called the Revolution Summer, which was a bunch of bands coming out around 1984/85 that started playing this new style of hardcore that would become emo. Then in 88, Moss Icon took that sound to the next level and bands started playing it that way. I'm not going to keep going to present day, because you probably will refuse to understand anyway. But there has been distinct eras in emo where a band has come out and experimented with a sound a band before them did and started a whole new branch of emo. The problem with emo is that there aren't any real sub-genres in it. It's just one big mass of bands that play a style of hardcore that has nothing to do with regular hardcore, grindcore, or metalcore. It's it's own big sub-genre.

[MrChainsaw389]

And just like every other genre that I can think of, the "creator", in this case Rites of Spring, are terrible. This is because they were before there time and so they don't have the advantage other bands do of looking at there predicesors and learning from them. maybe I just havn't heard the best songs by Rites of Spring, but from what I've heard they arn't very good.

[worldstheory]

I'm glad we have still_life here. He's one of the few who knows what the fuck he's talking about.

[still_life]

What's that in your avatar, Northstar? And you have Copeland lyrics in your sig. Don't even diss Rites Of Spring. Guy Picciotto was the vocalist/guitarist, that guy is talented. They were great, but I like Embrace better. And they started right around the same time as RoS.

[MrChainsaw389]

All I meant is that Rites of Spring were way before there time so they didn't have the advantages other bands have.

[still_life]

If they didn't break up so quick I'm sure they could have produced another quality album or two.

[13th hour]

whoa whoa whoa, you definitely misread me. You're talking about music there, I'm talking about just words in songs.

I know you know that there are christian hardcore and christian punk bands. Well, religion goes against the ideals of punk, so shouldn't christian hardcore be an oxymoron? See, lyrics aren't that important.




Sorry if I misread you, I guess you cant really have one on one intelligent coversations on a message board huh? Im interested in hardcore, but I wouldnt call myself a hardcore kid, and Im sure most of the people who know me wouldnt call me one either. But the thing is, is that (in my limited experience anyway), hardcore has a certain style to it. And what you said about hardcore christian bands, it doesnt seem like an oxymoron to me. One of my favorite hardcore bands (theyre extremely influenced by Poison the Well, Nodes of Rainer and Rights of Spring), is a christian band. Theyre not blatantly christian, but the point is, they have a message, which is what punk is about. In my opinion, Punk has two rules, 1) have a message and 2) there are no other rules. This band has a message, and theyre spreading it to others, who cares if theyre christian or their message is a christian one? the style is the same, the lyrics are emotional and personal, if sometimes on a more religious scale, so I dont think that people should shun them from the scene because of that. From the hardcore bands that Ive seen at a local level here in Omaha, at least Barter the Trigger has a message, most of these other bands dont, and yet they shut out the one that does. To me, that is very un-punk.

[still_life]

But punk and hardcore is about non-conformity and being yourself. Religion wants you to be like everyone else in your select religion and to live your life by their guidelines. That's why I think religion has no place in this kind of music. That's not to say I don't like christian bands, I just don't agree with their messages.

[MrChainsaw389]

I agree, you can't be a non-conformist and believe in a religion.

[13th hour]

But punk and hardcore is about non-conformity and being yourself. Religion wants you to be like everyone else in your select religion and to live your life by their guidelines. That's why I think religion has no place in this kind of music. That's not to say I don't like christian bands, I just don't agree with their messages.


Ive never thought about punk as being non-conformist, because that means that people would be different from other people, just to be different. I think punk is about being who YOU are, and if people like it, cool, but if people dont, then the other part of punk comes in, and that says, "who gives a fuck what they think? This is what I think."
And I wouldnt say all religions want you to be just like everyone else. Religions have rules, because theyre interpreting what God said, in their different forms. Its totally up to you though if you want to follow those rules. I personally think that it takes balls to be in the punk scene, and stand up and say, "yes, I believe that Jesus was the son of God, and I believe that he died for our sins". Most People would rip you a new asshole if you did that. So to me, being religious in the punk scene is just as punk rock as saying that all religions want you to be uniform with the other practicioners of that religion. But maybe Im a little biased, ive been on a religion kick lately, im still figuring things out for myself...

but I think punk and all its subgenres come down to just this: Have a message. It doesnt matter what it is, as long as youre taking the time to promote something that you believe in. Human Rights, Politics, Drugs, Religion. It doesnt matter. But thats just me, and you know more about hardcore than I do, so I respect your opinion.

[em0]

This is an extremely touchy subject. I hate to say that I agree with that article, I also hate to say that I disagree. Because frankly, I'm not sure WHAT I think about it. Lately I've taken to the believe that only 80's hardcore emo bands are actual emo, such as Rites of Spring and Still Life. But I'm the farthest thing from the expert on the subject, and I of course have my doubts about whether my own belief is right.

Who decides what emo is anyway? If only the originators of emo are allowed to decide, then only bands like Fugazi, Rites of Spring, and Jawbreaker are emo. If any band who claims to be emo is really emo, then no band is emo. If MTV decides what is emo, then only Dashboard Confessional is emo. If the fans decide what is emo and what is not emo, then we end up with a black hole of contradiction that cannot exist or the whole space-time continuum will collapse. For instance, some people say that anything pop-punk is emo. Some say that any rock music that is "emotional" is emo.

Who decides anyway? I don't really know, so I don't think we should really talk about it.

I love this line.

i really like what you said. where did that quote come from??

[In Your Eyes]

lyrics should have nothing to do with what a genre is like. Any band, no matter if they're hardcore, country, rap, or techno, can write any words they want for a song.

I agree with you totally right there... People always say that possibly emo is what it is because of their lyrics. Which is not true. You can look at a metal bands lyrics and its quite common that you;ll find the same material words and quotes. its all about presentation of yourself and how you make your music sound.

[still_life]

I'll quote someone else since I can't really say it better

"religion has no place in punk. never has and never will as it goes against every single thing punk stands for: equality, freedom & an end to those institutions & ideologies that enslave us..."

[worldstheory]

But punk and hardcore is about non-conformity and being yourself. Religion wants you to be like everyone else in your select religion and to live your life by their guidelines. That's why I think religion has no place in this kind of music. That's not to say I don't like christian bands, I just don't agree with their messages.I disagree about religion having no place in this type of music. You said yourself that "lyrics should have nothing to do with what a genre is like. Any band, no matter if they're hardcore, country, rap, or techno, can write any words they want for a song." I understand the obviousness of the fact that the punk culture was originated on ideals that contradicted religion, but in the end, punk is a genre... a musical style that is independent from its lyrical content.

[still_life]

The difference in opinions is because I see punk/hardcore as a cultural type thing. It's more than just music.

[worldstheory]

The difference in opinions is because I see punk/hardcore as a cultural type thing. It's more than just music.
But that seems to contradict your previous statement that I quoted within my paragraph...

[still_life]

I don't think so. It's still music, but there's more to it than that. It's not like metal or alternative. I don't exactly follow all of that punk shit, but I respect it.

[13th hour]

I don't think so. It's still music, but there's more to it than that. It's not like metal or alternative. I don't exactly follow all of that punk shit, but I respect it.


There is more of a sense of unity and culture in Punk and Hardcore, but that doesnt mean that the people in those scenes dont allow others to be themselves (such as, in the course of this conversation, have religious beliefs).

[still_life]

Exactly why religion has no place. So many religious people are close minded to people that believe in a different religion or no religion at all. They're unaccepting of others.

[worldstheory]

Exactly why religion has no place. So many religious people are close minded to people that believe in a different religion or no religion at all. They're unaccepting of others.
As are people who say that Christianity has no place in punk. You're excluding Christians because you assume that they're closed-minded and uneducated and brainwashed, simply based on a stereotype. If punk is accepting, then why wouldn't it be able to accept people who have given their lives to the one who they believe created them?

[MrChainsaw389]

Because most Christians are closed minded. The movie, The Passion of Christ got a bad rap from other christians, not from jews, about being anti-simatic. Why? Because unlike religions that fight wars and die for there religion in todays world, Christianity has become just like the American Government, afraid to step on the wrong persons toes.

[hopelessdesires]

Everyone complains about labels, yet everyone takes a part in labeling someone. I think if they are going to complain, they shouldn't write an article about labels, when in fact labeling people in their article. These people need to turn into decent journalists. They're fired.

[13th hour]

As are people who say that Christianity has no place in punk. You're excluding Christians because you assume that they're closed-minded and uneducated and brainwashed, simply based on a stereotype. If punk is accepting, then why wouldn't it be able to accept people who have given their lives to the one who they believe created them?


This is all I was trying to say. My best friend is religious, but you would never know unless you talked to him about it. Its not something that he advertises. Before I met some of the people that I know now, I was pretty anti- religion, but now I know that was because Id only met the extreme ones... You know, the ones who think that Harry Potter is a sign of the coming of the Anti Christ. I guarantee you, there are people who you know now who are religious and you dont even know it. Why? Because some of them simply dont fit the stereo type. I dont think the "stereo typical" or "extreme" christians have a place in hardcore or punk, but if someone wants to have a belief, and as long as they are open minded about other things, then I dont see how that is hurting anything.

[still_life]

But why would you want to accept someone that isn't accpeting of others? And face it, everyone that is religious (and I mean religious, not the ones that become religious every Sunday morning and then raise hell the rest of the week) will cling to and defend their religion. It's a touchy subject that always leads to negative actions. Christians just don't fit in with the ethics of hardcore. It's like a group of jews and blacks saying, "hey, that neo-nazi in the corner Steve can't be that bad of a person, let's study with him". Speaking of neo-nazis, there's a lot of crust punk and grind that's like that. Definitely a negative part of the "scene".

[13th hour]

I agree with the negative part of Nazis in the scene. They have no place in any scene, in fact, they have no reason to exist at all.

I see what you mean about people who call themselves christians but raise hell the rest of the week, but I dont necessarily agree. My best friend Tom, hes a christian, and he raises hell a good portion of the time, but hes not just religious on sunday, if you ever got in a conversation with him, youd see that he really believes. To me, itd be a shame if people decided that he (as being one of the most punk kids I know) didnt belong in the "scene" just because of his personal beliefs. Thatd be like saying anyone who didnt support a womans right to choose shouldnt belong in the scene...

[still_life]

It's not that people like that can't be into this music and play it, it's just kind of hypocritical for a religious person to be considered all punk or hardcore. Bah, I keep rambling with this. I think we know how each other feels on this topic by now.

[worldstheory]

But why would you want to accept someone that isn't accpeting of others?But a Christian who is truely Christ-like is accepting of others. He loves his enemies. He does good to anyone who hates him. He blesses anyone who curses him, and he prays for anyone who despitefully uses him. He also doesn't judge others, because he himself will be judged by those same standards.

[hXc_pwnage]

But punk and hardcore is about non-conformity and being yourself. Religion wants you to be like everyone else in your select religion and to live your life by their guidelines. That's why I think religion has no place in this kind of music. That's not to say I don't like christian bands, I just don't agree with their messages.
Ok, the whole conformaty thing is stupid. Everyone conformes. What clothes are you wearing? You probably found out about them from someone else or someone has that exact same shirt...conforming. You listen to punk? You are conforming with every other punk out there. Conformity is always going to happen, so don't say you are a non-conformist.

[still_life]

"But a Christian who is truely Christ-like is accepting of others. He loves his enemies. He does good to anyone who hates him. He blesses anyone who curses him, and he prays for anyone who despitefully uses him. He also doesn't judge others, because he himself will be judged by those same standards."

You actually think people like that exist? Christ-like christians, whatever.

I don't consider myself "punk". I don't live that lifestyle. I am wearing a Nike shirt right now. You wouldn't even guess that I listen to the music I do if you saw me. I do think the whole non-conformist thing is shaky, but I do have lots of respect for DIY, being yourself, etc.

[13th hour]

DIY is important. Im my opinion, thats the cornerstone of the scene.

[worldstheory]

You actually think people like that exist? Christ-like christians, whateverDo you think that "punk-like" punks really exist? Please don't think for one second that just because the ideals of punk are accepting, that anyone who considers themselves "punk" follows these ideals perfectly without fault. It's human nature to mess up and contradict one's own morals or values, whether they be the values of a religion or the values of a music scene. People mess up and act unloving or non-accepting of others or judgemental, even against their own ideals. But as a Christian I try my hardest to abide by these words of Jesus that I paraphrased above. It's just as impossible for a punk to live a perfect life as it is for a Christian.

[still_life]

No, but it'd be much easier to be a true punk than a Christ-like Christian. And I'm sure there are more people that are punks than there are devoted Christians like that (take age into account too to make it fair, I don't think there are many 80 year olds that think music should be DIY).

[worldstheory]

Regardless, if it's punk to have beliefs that are convictions, then being a convicted Christian is about as punk as you can get. And anyone who isn't willing to accept that isn't punk.

[aurora]

Regardless, if it's punk to have beliefs that are convictions, then being a convicted Christian is about as punk as you can get. And anyone who isn't willing to accept that isn't punk.
That sounded so 'he said she said' except with 'punk this punk that'.

[worldstheory]

That sounded so 'he said she said' except with 'punk this punk that'.
Ha! I actually physically stopped myself from using the expression "is totally punk" when I was typing that.

[aurora]

Ha! I actually physically stopped myself from using the expression "is totally punk" when I was typing that.
Hahahaha...It's probably for the best. :D