Define "Indie"

[alice+interiors]

The Indie genre tag is thrown around almost as much as "Emo" these days, and is now been labelled to different bands who have no distinctive similarities at all.

So how exactly do you define indie, and what kind of bands/examples should fit into this description?

"Genres are pointless" comments not wanted, thank you.

[Smash Adams]

the Garden State soundtrack duh

no I'd say any band who your average music consumer wouldn't know

[chaosB4storm]

the Garden State soundtrack duh

no I'd say any band who your average music consumer wouldn't know


genres are pointless


but really, indie is not a genre, Smash Proves this. The popularity of a band should not, and does not, determine the genre it fits into. Genre, as far as i know, refers to the style of the music, and popularity does not apply.

Therefore, although i mistakenly use it a lot in the wrong context, indie is not a genre. It just means the band has an independent label.

[alice+interiors]

genres are pointless


but really, indie is not a genre, Smash Proves this. The popularity of a band should not, and does not, determine the genre it fits into. Genre, as far as i know, refers to the style of the music, and popularity does not apply.

Therefore, although i mistakenly use it a lot in the wrong context, indie is not a genre. It just means the band has an independent label.
which is why I made this thread, so people can be told and learn the distinction.

[chaosB4storm]

lol i'm not bashing the thread, there is very good reason to make this thread. i was just trying to get my point across.

good thread. lol

[Praetor]

Indie in the truest sense is any band on a label that is not a major label.

However indie has began to encompass a certain sound - kind of folky, quirkier, mellower stuff. So for example, Say Anything is indie in the classic sense but not in the modern, looser sense.

[Thriftstoresuit]

Indie in the truest sense is any band on a label that is not a major label.

However indie has began to encompass a certain sound - kind of folky, quirkier, mellower stuff. So for example, Say Anything is indie in the classic sense but not in the modern, looser sense.

I totally agree.
death cab for example, despite having signed to a major label, are still regularly labeled as indie because of their sound

[chaosB4storm]

i do not believe in the modern sense you are talking about, however, i do believe *indie* gets MISUSED in that sense.

brand new is not indie, but they used to be when they werent attatched to a major label.

[chipdip18]

I Am Indie.

[Praetor]

i do not believe in the modern sense you are talking about, however, i do believe *indie* gets MISUSED in that sense.

brand new is not indie, but they used to be when they werent attatched to a major label.
Right, it started off as a misuse and kept getting misused but now I consider it a genre. Loosely, but I still consider it a genre.

[chaosB4storm]

I Am Indie.

nice contributing point to the discussion. It was very neccessary lol

[chipdip18]

nice contributing point to the discussion. It was very neccessary lol

Haha you know how i do. (catch the reference?) Well i think Matt made this thread out of disgust in the Taking Back Sunday thread. I would have to say indie is a loose concept associated with a particular musical sound, but not quite meeting the standards of a genre. The indie sound is sort of like keep distant with the current musical trends while maintaining some familiarity. Experimenting with familiar and cliche trends to make it different. It generally has a loose sound, perhaps a bit directionless. I think of midwestern indie when i think of indie for the most part. Such as Cap'n Jazz and such.

[micahistheballs]

Don't worry 'bout it.

[alice+interiors]

shut up and make a long post Micah

[Siren Silently]

Then theres the brit-pop crap like Arctics Monkeys that is regularly tagged as indie.

[chaosB4storm]

lol yeah everyone that has talked so far on here basically has the point.

[thespearkid]

People from Indiana are indie. :shrug:

[Chromefox]

I'm on a music forum larger and more genre-non-specific with a helluva lot more elitists, and they reckon that if you're on an independant label, you're indie, whereas if you're not, you ain't, regardless of sound.

It's a definition I tend to agree with.

[chaosB4storm]

same

[ThemChains]

Indie= a shortened version of the word Independent. Dictionary anyone?

[Reflecting]

Well, really, I use the term indie to refer to any band which is signed to a label that isn't mainstream.

Indie rock however is its own genre. Wolf Parade and Animal Collective are indie rock bands.

[chaosB4storm]

Well, really, I use the term indie to refer to any band which is signed to a label that isn't mainstream.

Indie rock however is its own genre. Wolf Parade and Animal Collective are indie rock bands.

I disagrizzle

[intl p]

Definitions are kind of...well...lame. But I have some thoughts on the subject. I think Indie is sort of synonymous with underground (to some people that may be a 'duh' ). It might be something like cancer or AIDs that you can't see just by looking but nevertheless...it is there. If I were to use the term 'indie', I would be referring to a status in the music biz, a certain style of rock or approach to music, or a sub-culture.

[Angylion Gefell]

Indie is anything that is individual, or holds individualistic values. Indie is anything that calls itself indie.

[chaosB4storm]

Definitions are kind of...well...lame. But I have some thoughts on the subject. I think Indie is sort of synonymous with underground (to some people that may be a 'duh' ). It might be something like cancer or AIDs that you can't see just by looking but nevertheless...it is there. If I were to use the term 'indie', I would be referring to a status in the music biz, a certain style of rock or approach to music, or a sub-culture.

lol any way you could have used a slightly happier simile there? lol

[3mpire]

Indie (the sound) in the mainstream over here is completely different to what it is over the pond. Stuff like Razorlight/Bloc Party/Arctic Monkeys are given the "indie" label and anything else that's featured in NME.

[AlternateToLife]

Indie= a shortened version of the word Independent. Dictionary anyone?

Although you make a valid (yet seemingly obvious) point here, I think that a lot of terms in music get stretched beyond their original meaning. I'm liking the modern vs. classic point going through here. Because a lot of people would still consider bands like Death Cab or Say Anything Indie despite no longer being independent. I think what had originally started as a way to label popularity, it's becoming a genre thanks to the increase in acceptance of that type of music into the mainstream.

[brentkid]

A bullshit label to make people feel special.

[sugarcoatedlies]

A bullshit label to make people feel special.
QFE

[Machu505]

That's Dr. Jones to you.

[lovely864md]

I don't consider bands like Say Anything or DCFC indie. I consider bands whose sound is not very mainstream indie. Say Anything and DCFC may not have been mainstream sounding to begin with, but they've become prolific enough to inspire plenty of copycats. Usually like was said, indie is thrown around more with lesser known folky and quirkier stuff.

In the purest sense however it's anything that's not signed to a major label.

[KidRobot]

I disagrizzle

What genre is Neutral Milk Hotel then?

[Machu505]

What genre is Neutral Milk Hotel then?

Neo-folk?

EDIT: Wikipedia says "Psych-folk".

[chaosB4storm]

What genre is Neutral Milk Hotel then?

lol not sure, not something i really lose sleep over.

i just dont think indie is a genre, but im really bored of this discussion, cuz like 5 ppl have already said the correct answer to the proposed question.

[AlternateToLife]

lol not sure, not something i really lose sleep over.

i just dont think indie is a genre, but im really bored of this discussion, cuz like 5 ppl have already said the correct answer to the proposed question.

But I think the point people still writing are trying to make is that it may not be entirely correct.

[lovely864md]

lol not sure, not something i really lose sleep over.

i just dont think indie is a genre, but im really bored of this discussion, cuz like 5 ppl have already said the correct answer to the proposed question.

K bye.

[Praetor]

I don't consider bands like Say Anything or DCFC indie. I consider bands whose sound is not very mainstream indie. Say Anything and DCFC may not have been mainstream sounding to begin with, but they've become prolific enough to inspire plenty of copycats. Usually like was said, indie is thrown around more with lesser known folky and quirkier stuff.

In the purest sense however it's anything that's not signed to a major label.
Moot point because Say Anything and Death Cab For Cutie are names that are known in the mainstream.

[lovely864md]

Moot point because Say Anything and Death Cab For Cutie are names that are known in the mainstream.

What point exactly is moot?

[versus_god]

A moo point. Like a cow's opinion: it just doesn't matter. It's moo.

[brentkid]

Moot point because Say Anything and Death Cab For Cutie are names that are known in the mainstream.
The hell are you talking about?

[brentkid]

A moo point. Like a cow's opinion: it just doesn't matter. It's moo.
Can't tell if that's funny or not but a "moot point" normally means something you can debate - not something that is irrelevant or doesn't matter.

[nonamesleft]

Indie
<3

[teenagetwilight]

Indie is the new shittzle around here. Just so you know how far ahead of your time we are.

not

[SureAsRain]

indie is experimental music that still follows a formula.
new but not
different but still the same
just enough to get a small mainstream success
but not enough to get everyone to love

[The_kok]

indie is the stage where a music fan feels so much superiority, he has to express it every second of his glorious, supreme life. His superiority comes from knowing bands who sound nothing like each other and who never wear the same tight pants. ever.

[AlternateToLife]

Indie is the new shittzle around here. Just so you know how far ahead of your time we are.

not

I'm not entirely sure I understood what you just said. Can you clarify please?

[Praetor]

What point exactly is moot?
The hell are you talking about?
This:
Say Anything and DCFC may not have been mainstream sounding to begin with
Not only are they incredibly mainstream-sounding (opinion) but they are well-known in the mainstream (fact).

EDIT: My bad, I misread.

[SickOfStars]

"it's like watching a bunch of retards try to fuck a doorknob"


indie = independent. You can throw it front of a bunch of other genres.

Indie Pop

Indie Rock (note: this seems to have developed a distinct, yet somehow amorphous sound. This results in MTV telling you Arctic Monkeys is "indie," as their music, while extremely accessible, has some "indie rock" sensibility about it. Sadly, so does a lot of FUSE video bullshit airing these days)

... and I could continue the list. But that's it, cut and dry. Not really an argument.

[brentkid]

This:

Not only are they incredibly mainstream-sounding (opinion) but they are well-known in the mainstream (fact).

EDIT: My bad, I misread.
I disagree severely that Say Anything is well known in the mainstream.

[SickOfStars]

I disagree severely that Say Anything is well known in the mainstream.

let me tell you how many sorority-looking girls at my school are sporting their t-shirts while playing frisbee or wearing big sunglasses or getting iced coffee or doing all three at once.


a lot.

[brentkid]

That's surprising. Out of everyone I know, maybe two people have heard of them.

I've never even heard them on the radio or seen their music videos anywhere but online.

[SickOfStars]

That's surprising. Out of everyone I know, maybe two people have heard of them.

I've never even heard them on the radio or seen their music videos anywhere but online.

if you had the misfortune of seeing more of various music television channels, you would be mighty surprised.

[x togepi x]

they're not "mainstream". They're mainstream for people who think they listen to underground music when they really don't, if that makes any sense.

[SickOfStars]

they're not "mainstream". They're mainstream for people who think they listen to underground music when they really don't, if that makes any sense.

http://www.dailylist.org/images/scene.jpg
music for THIS guy

[x togepi x]

maybe like a year ago, but they're a little too mainstream for that guy. he has to bump dance gavin dance.

[SickOfStars]

maybe like a year ago, but they're a little too mainstream for that guy. he has to bump dance gavin dance.

true



http://www.dailylist.org/images/scene.jpg
music FORMERLY for this guy. Now for Jenny Sorority and the boy that was obsessed with video games in Jr. High but now thinks he is cool for buying his first pair of "skinny jeans" at pac sun.

[chipdip18]

true



http://www.dailylist.org/images/scene.jpg
music FORMERLY for this guy. Now for Jenny Sorority and the boy that was obsessed with video games in Jr. High but now thinks he is cool for buying his first pair of "skinny jeans" at pac sun.


This guy secretly listens to CIWWAF and Say Anything. But is in love with bands like Bring Me the Horizon. I used to work at Pac Sun!

[brentkid]

they're not "mainstream". They're mainstream for people who think they listen to underground music when they really don't, if that makes any sense.
Makes sense to me.

if you had the misfortune of seeing more of various music television channels, you would be mighty surprised.
I'm probably the worst person to speak about when it comes to seeing bands and exposure. I almost never listen to the radio and think FUSE or whatever is as shitty as MTV or other music channels.

[SickOfStars]

it's god awful, but lots of roommates I've had do not share that opinion.

[x togepi x]

true



http://www.dailylist.org/images/scene.jpg
music FORMERLY for this guy. Now for Jenny Sorority and the boy that was obsessed with video games in Jr. High but now thinks he is cool for buying his first pair of "skinny jeans" at pac sun.

dude i'm getting sick of the hate of skinny jeans because they're the only things that i can wear and not look like a nu-metal bastard in.

[SickOfStars]

dude i'm getting sick of the hate of skinny jeans because they're the only things that i can wear and not look like a nu-metal bastard in.

dude I wear them too don't worry about it, small legs happen. I just have to assert my toughness by disassociating myself with these fucks, who have normal christmas ham sized legs and look like they're wearing leotards when they slip those fuckers on.

[Praetor]

I disagree severely that Say Anything is well known in the mainstream.
Wow, I Can Get Sexual Too! has been quoted daily in my school ever since it hit MTV, and Alive With The Glory Of Love was big before that. I have also heard many mentions of Shiksa and Baby Girl. They are big.

[x togepi x]

dude I wear them too don't worry about it, small legs happen. I just have to assert my toughness by disassociating myself with these fucks, who have normal christmas ham sized legs and look like they're wearing leotards when they slip those fuckers on.

yeah some people look good in them, some look like assholes. it's amazing. the only thing that sucks is that since they're trendy, they cost more than everything else which punishes little guys.

[SickOfStars]

yeah some people look good in them, some look like assholes. it's amazing. the only thing that sucks is that since they're trendy, they cost more than everything else which punishes little guys.

on sale for 20 bucks at pac sun if you can go in there without vomiting blood.

34 bucks at JC penney if you can go in there without vomiting blood.

and it's okay because they're levi's 510 which are skinny, but not 511 which are like "super skinny stretch," which will make you look like ether a terrible crusty or the singer of From First to Last, Saosin, etc, etc.

[x togepi x]

on sale for 20 bucks at pac sun if you can go in there without vomiting blood.

34 bucks at JC penney if you can go in there without vomiting blood.

and it's okay because they're levi's 510 which are skinny, but not 511 which are like "super skinny stretch," which will make you look like ether a terrible crusty or the singer of From First to Last, Saosin, etc, etc.

oh shit. i'm going to see if my parents want to buy some jeans today.

[SickOfStars]

oh shit. i'm going to see if my parents want to buy some jeans today.

hopefully missouri and new hampshire are similar in their stock/sales/etc

[x togepi x]

well the last time i bought jeans it was for 34 bucks. and we're behind the times so they will still have them in stock.

[SickOfStars]

well the last time i bought jeans it was for 34 bucks. and we're behind the times so they will still have them in stock.

word up.

[x togepi x]

people here just got into the whole cowboy shirts thing.

[SickOfStars]

people here just got into the whole cowboy shirts thing.

I used to get made fun of for wearing those my freshman year of high school. I "wtf" that every day.

[SanePsychotic]

People from Indiana are indie. :shrug:

No, we're Hooisers!

Besides, it's Indy not Indie. Big difference.

[hockeyguitar99]

i don't look at indie as a genre, it's a type of label. So UnderOath is indie, and so are the Maine.

[hockeyguitar99]

Wow, I Can Get Sexual Too! has been quoted daily in my school ever since it hit MTV, and Alive With The Glory Of Love was big before that. I have also heard many mentions of Shiksa and Baby Girl. They are big.


I understand what your saying, but I wouldn't really describe them as big. MCR are big, Against Me! are big, Say Anything are big, but on a different scale. They're a very big "underground" band, but not in the mainstream. I've never heard any of their songs on normal radio, only satellite.

[Angylion Gefell]

Indie is the new shittzle around here. Just so you know how far ahead of your time we are.

not

The "not" was "not" necesseary.

[SickOfStars]

I understand what your saying, but I wouldn't really describe them as big. MCR are big, Against Me! are big, Say Anything are big, but on a different scale. They're a very big "underground" band, but not in the mainstream. I've never heard any of their songs on normal radio, only satellite.

that's odd, because I live in bumfuck New Hampshire and have heard them on the radio.

[handlikesecret]

Say Anything is pretty well known, but none of their really good stuff. which is kind of cool. aside from "Alive..." i don't care for any of their singles. they save the good stuff for the actual albums.

[Angylion Gefell]

Indie is what you call a shitty band that is too loud to be pop and too quiet to be emo. Or that falls into one of those categories, but wants to avoid it.

[handlikesecret]

http://images.absolutepunk.net/images/editor/separator.gifhttp://www.intternetti.net/%7Ejiri/motivation/rpg/denial.jpg

[Angylion Gefell]

I know that banana!

[hockeyguitar99]

that's odd, because I live in bumfuck New Hampshire and have heard them on the radio.


well they don't get played on the normal radio stations in illinois, at least not where i live. Then again, all our rock station plays is grunge and metallica.

[handlikesecret]

I know that banana!
i'm impressed.

speaking of "impressive":

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb44/spadum/de-motivational%20posters/denial.jpg

[GuitarR0cker1]

i'm impressed.

speaking of "impressive":

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb44/spadum/de-motivational%20posters/denial.jpg
lolz

[SanePsychotic]

The banana is better, just because I've been the Star Wars one too many times before.

[SickOfStars]

Indie is what you call a shitty band that is too loud to be pop and too quiet to be emo. Or that falls into one of those categories, but wants to avoid it.

that's stupid. I bet you wear plaid shorts.

[stfu_man]

Lame.

[stfu_man]

that's stupid. I bet you wear plaid shorts.

Idk why but this made me laugh, haha.

[chaosB4storm]

that's stupid. I bet you wear plaid shorts.

What the person said was pathetically stupid for sure, but can we leave plaid shorts out of this? lol

[intl p]

I didnt mean to sound so dreary with the cancer/AIDS comparison. it's kind of funny now that i think about it. but what I really want to know is why Say Anything is the most mentioned band in this thread. I love that band but are they really the beastiest indie band. are they really quintessential?

[x togepi x]

I didnt mean to sound so dreary with the cancer/AIDS comparison. it's kind of funny now that i think about it. but what I really want to know is why Say Anything is the most mentioned band in this thread. I love that band but are they really the beastiest indie band. are they really quintessential?

no because they suck and aren't indie.

[chaosB4storm]

plaid shorts don't suck. thats all i have to say.

[IWasaCamera]

Indie = independent but I constantly misuse the term when describing bands to people.

Say Anything is huge.

Plaid shorts suck.

[chaosB4storm]

Indie = independent but I constantly misuse the term when describing bands to people.

Say Anything is huge.

Plaid shorts suck.

lol 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

[Praetor]

I understand what your saying, but I wouldn't really describe them as big. MCR are big, Against Me! are big, Say Anything are big, but on a different scale. They're a very big "underground" band, but not in the mainstream. I've never heard any of their songs on normal radio, only satellite.
Then you are wrong.

[Pluto.]

Idk why but this made me laugh, haha.

Hah, me too. Simply because the entire male population that attend my school wear those basted shorts.

[kwsqd]

out of curiosity, how did you come up with 700?

[hockeyguitar99]

Any band that can headline shows of over 700 people or so is big.

So if a band has seven hundred fans in a city of a milliom people they're big.

[AlternateToLife]

So if a band has seven hundred fans in a city of a milliom people they're big.

I don't think we can argue that 700 people is a big crowd. It's a big crowd. However I'm not sure if that is what the original argument.

[kwsqd]

One of the venues where bands play here Manchester Academy 2 has a capacity of 700. Bands such as The Decemberists, Thursday, Alexisonfire, Underoath play there. They are about the basement in my eyes of what I consider a mainstream band to be.
Okay, I see where you're going. There's quite a difference between seeing Thursday in a club and Pearl Jam in a stadium.

[kwsqd]

Well there is but I see it like this. Say I earned £75,000 a year I'd consider myself pretty damn rich, if I earned £500,000 a year I'd be even richer but that doesn't mean I wasn't rich at £75,000.
Good point. We're talking about the threshold for "big" then, regardless of an actual comparison of bands.

[hockeyguitar99]

I don't think we can argue that 700 people is a big crowd. It's a big crowd. However I'm not sure if that is what the original argument.

It might be a big crowd but it doesn't make a band big. I think playing a place like the congress theatre which holds about fifteen hundred (I think) makes a band big. Like panic or mcr

[hockeyguitar99]

I don't think we can argue that 700 people is a big crowd. It's a big crowd. However I'm not sure if that is what the original argument.


It's a lot of people, but when it's put in perspective, I don't find it that impressive.

[SickOfStars]

Indie = independent but I constantly misuse the term when describing bands to people.

Say Anything is huge.

Plaid shorts suck.

thanks for, uh, being my wingman on this and stuff...


here

http://www.cardullos.com/10035_WB.jpg

[handlikesecret]

Well there is but I see it like this. Say I earned £75,000 a year I'd consider myself pretty damn rich, if I earned £500,000 a year I'd be even richer but that doesn't mean I wasn't rich at £75,000.
that's a good point, Ben.

[alice+interiors]

You're an idiot. These days? You're 14.
The scene can change in a matter of days.
You don't have to have been around for a long time to notice it.

[IWasaCamera]

thanks for, uh, being my wingman on this and stuff...


here

http://www.cardullos.com/10035_WB.jpg
After Eight, score.

[x togepi x]

It's a lot of people, but when it's put in perspective, I don't find it that impressive.

who's perspective?

You do realize most bands will never draw anywhere close to 700 people, right?

Oh wait. You're probably just some dude who talks about shitty bands on the internet without going to shows.

[hockeyguitar99]

who's perspective?

You do realize most bands will never draw anywhere close to 700 people, right?

Oh wait. You're probably just some dude who talks about shitty bands on the internet without going to shows.

right because you know me and stuff. I do know that, but it doesn't mean that it makes them big, considering most bans won't even record an album that statement is completely general and stupid. and perspective as in looking at the bigger picture

[handlikesecret]

who's perspective?

You do realize most bands will never draw anywhere close to 700 people, right?

Oh wait. You're probably just some dude who talks about shitty bands on the internet without going to shows.
unnecessary.

[x togepi x]

right because you know me and stuff. I do know that, but it doesn't mean that it makes them big, considering most bans won't even record an album that statement is completely general and stupid. and perspective as in looking at the bigger picture

The fact that Say Anything has recorded two albums that have sold a ton of units while most bands won't record anything is proof that say anything is big, dumb ass. If you look at the "big picture", you would be agreeing with us since in comparison to like 75% of bands playing music today, Say Anything is huge. Any idiot could trot out like Nickelback and be like "SEE SEE SAY ANYTHING IS SMALL AND INDIE DARLINGS", but one who actually goes to shows is going to realize that 700 people in one room is a big show, regardless if it the venue is sold out or whatever.

unnecessary.

what's really unnecessary is you being an apologist for idiocy.

[alice+interiors]

okay so how about a different aspect:

Say playing a show with under 700 attendees / never releasing an album which sells more than 1000 copies does definitively make you indie.

What do you categorize those previously labelled as indie by some (eg Death Cab for Cutie, Nada Surf, Say Anything), now?

[x togepi x]

If they're not an indie label, they're not indie. who cares how we classify those shit bands?

[hockeyguitar99]

The fact that Say Anything has recorded two albums that have sold a ton of units while most bands won't record anything is proof that say anything is big, dumb ass. If you look at the "big picture", you would be agreeing with us since in comparison to like 75% of bands playing music today, Say Anything is huge. Any idiot could trot out like Nickelback and be like "SEE SEE SAY ANYTHING IS SMALL AND INDIE DARLINGS", but one who actually goes to shows is going to realize that 700 people in one room is a big show, regardless if it the venue is sold out or whatever.



what's really unnecessary is you being an apologist for idiocy.

I got to plenty of shows fucker. I know that it's a lot of people. i was saying that most bands don't record anything because you were comparing them to all bands, but when you get rid of those bands it's less impressive. They aren't huge, when your playing like the fifth or sixth biggest venue in a city your not huge. you might be a bit popular, but saying they are huge is fucking retarded, just like you.

[handlikesecret]

what's really unnecessary is you being an apologist for idiocy.
i'm not, you didn't need to say anything in the first place.

no pun intended. :-D

[SickOfStars]

J records = major label

I have officially broken up this fight. If anyone continues to squabble over aspects of the issue that are, in fact, irrelevent, I will fuck them in the ear.

[x togepi x]

I got to plenty of shows fucker. I know that it's a lot of people. i was saying that most bands don't record anything because you were comparing them to all bands, but when you get rid of those bands it's less impressive.

oh, so if a band doesn't record an album, they're not really a band? You're just moving the goal posts so that you look like less of an idiot. You can't limit out essentially every band in existence just because you look like an idiot by saying Say Anything isn't big.

They are: thousands of people buy their records, they get on big tours, they get on the radio regularly, they can play big shows and headline them. Even one of these factors would make them big, but since they have all of them, how exactly can you say they're not big?

They aren't huge, when your playing like the fifth or sixth biggest venue in a city your not huge. you might be a bit popular, but saying they are huge is fucking retarded, just like you.

You have no idea what you're talking about here. The size of venue you play doesn't even correlate to the level of popularity your band is. There can be tons of reasons why a band might play a small venue, one being that the promoter didn't realize how popular the band was. but your argument is seriously like saying because the St. Louis Cardinals aren't selling out their home games every night in St. Louis (a city of millions) that they're not a popular baseball team.

But let's put this more into perspective: when i went to what was supposed to be Planes Mistaken For Stars last show and Christie Front Drive's reunion show, they only sold out a club of 500 people. PMFS and CFD are way more important to music than Say Anything will ever be. PMFS was a long running hardcore band and CFD were pioneers in the midwest emo scene. This was a once in a lifetime event, yet Say Anything packed 200 more people into a normal show. How can you seriously say they're not big then?

[handlikesecret]

J records = major label

I have officially broken up this fight. If anyone continues to squabble over aspects of the issue that are, in fact, irrelevant, I will fuck them in the ear.
is that the best you got?! :-p

[SickOfStars]

is that the best you got?! :-p

no, I've got much worse. But seriously, that's like the only criteria here.

[handlikesecret]

no, I've got much worse. But seriously, that's like the only criteria here.
lol, it didn't seem to phase togepi. i suggest you try something else.

[SickOfStars]

lol, it didn't seem to phase togepi. i suggest you try something else.

this is not togepi's prerogative anymore. it is now time for him to douse hockeyguitar99 in piss.

[x togepi x]

i would not waste a golden shower on a say anything fan.

[SickOfStars]

i would not waste a golden shower on a say anything fan.

I didn't say you were going to hose him down yourself. I pictured a large bucket of it, maybe from horses.

[x togepi x]

i would not waste a large bucket of horse piss on a say anything fan.

[handlikesecret]

this is not togepi's prerogative anymore. it is now time for him to douse hockeyguitar99 in piss.
oh dear. this won't be pretty. i've been fortunate enough to have only been in two "discussions" with him.

[x togepi x]

well if you didn't hate gay people i would be nice to you. maybe.

[SickOfStars]

oh dear. this won't be pretty. i've been fortunate enough to have only been in two "discussions" with him.

I'm his buddy, so I've never really found myself in these situations.

[handlikesecret]

I'm his buddy, so I've never really found myself in these situations.
i'm all for avoiding them, but they seem to find me, haha. i think i have bad timing or something. but with the exceptions of Ben and a couple people in the general forums, i've gotten along with pretty much everyone.

[SickOfStars]

i'm all for avoiding them, but they seem to find me, haha. i think i have bad timing or something. but with the exceptions of Ben and a couple people in the general forums, i've gotten along with pretty much everyone.

a lot of people will grin and bear it with other people's views. There are people that will not.

You and I are as different as night and day.

Togepi's about the same belief wise as me, maybe slightly more extreme.

I'm just a passive fuck.

[handlikesecret]

a lot of people will grin and bear it with other people's views. There are people that will not.

You and I are as different as night and day.

Togepi's about the same belief wise as me, maybe slightly more extreme.

I'm just a passive fuck.
haha yeah seriously. and i appreciate that you're passive about it. it's cool.

[SickOfStars]

haha yeah seriously. and i appreciate that you're passive about it. it's cool.

it can be, but sometimes I have trouble standing up to people. I actually really need to work on that, hahaha. It drives my girlfriend crazy, especially when it's "what should we have for dinner?" or "do you want to go home now?"

[IWasaCamera]

Stop fighting it, Say Anything is huge.

[SickOfStars]

Stop fighting it, Say Anything is huge.

I'm terribly sorry sir, but it seems I have punctured your lung with my sexual apparatus

[alice+interiors]

hahaa

[handlikesecret]

it can be, but sometimes I have trouble standing up to people. I actually really need to work on that, hahaha. It drives my girlfriend crazy, especially when it's "what should we have for dinner?" or "do you want to go home now?"
hahaha oh man, i can be like that sometimes.

[IWasaCamera]

I'm terribly sorry sir, but it seems I have punctured your lung with my sexual apparatus
Racy.

[SickOfStars]

Racy.

you want to race? I can definitely do that.

[IWasaCamera]

you want to race? I can definitely do that.
I'm rather fleet of foot.

[SickOfStars]

I'm rather fleet of foot.

yeah, right. we are racing on gold-studded segways while eating quiznos sandwiches.

[handlikesecret]

i can't wait for Cross Country to start.

[SickOfStars]

i can't wait for Cross Country to start.

I started running/jogging my sophomore year of high school. Thought I did pretty good for myself. Then I tried out for Cross Country my senior year and threw up after the first day.

[handlikesecret]

I started running/jogging my sophomore year of high school. Thought I did pretty good for myself. Then I tried out for Cross Country my senior year and threw up after the first day.
haha oh dear. did you do Track? this will be my first year of CC, but i've done Spring/Indoor Track for the past two years.

[IWasaCamera]

yeah, right. we are racing on gold-studded segways while eating quiznos sandwiches.
I don't even care whether I win or lose if Quiznos is involved.

[SickOfStars]

I don't even care whether I win or lose if Quiznos is involved.

agreed. calling off the race so we can just get dinner.

win/win/win

[handlikesecret]

agreed. calling off the race so we can just get dinner.

win/win/win
can i be a third wheel?

[IWasaCamera]

agreed. calling off the race so we can just get dinner.

win/win/win
yesssssss
can i be a third wheel?
maybeeeee

[handlikesecret]

maybeeeee
haha wow, surprising answer. i actually always got the idea that you don't like me for some reason.

[IWasaCamera]

Why's that?

[SickOfStars]

Why's that?

he's apparently got the exact same level of social paranoia that I have, in which he will think everyone hates him, or at the very least highly suspect that they don't really like him, until it's irrefutably proven otherwise.

[handlikesecret]

Why's that?
in all honesty, i don't really know. i guess i just found myself as someone you wouldn't like. or maybe it's because i always peg you with Ben, and i always used to get the feeling that he didn't like me.

i don't know, i put way too much thought into that kind of stuff. i'm paranoid.

he's apparently got the exact same level of social paranoia that I have, in which he will think everyone hates him, or at the very least highly suspect that they don't really like him, until it's irrefutably proven otherwise.
there we go.

[IWasaCamera]

in all honesty, i don't really know. i guess i just found myself as someone you wouldn't like. or maybe it's because i always peg you with Ben, and i always used to get the feeling that he didn't like me.

i don't know, i put way too much thought into that kind of stuff. i'm paranoid.
I'm only really vocal about my views regarding music. I let Togepi, Ben, and so on take care of the other stuff. As a result, I don't really hate anyone; aside from idiots who think Elliott Smith is better than Nick Drake of course.

[handlikesecret]

I'm only really vocal about my views regarding music. I let Togepi, Ben, and so on take care of the other stuff. As a result, I don't really hate anyone; aside from idiots who think Elliott Smith is better than Nick Drake of course.
haha no worries, i don't listen to much of either, which i actually plan on changing. well i'm glad we have that settled, at least you feel flattered that you do intimidate me. haha i'm such a pushover.

[Reflecting]

I disagrizzle
Care to explain?

[alice+interiors]

haha awesome bump, props

[chipdip18]

The Phantom of the Opera Soundtrack defines Indie.

[chaosB4storm]

Care to explain?

Indie-rock is not its own genre because genres reflect the style of the music, and not the level of popularity or label a given band is under.

Rock is a genre, Indie is not

Therefore, an Indie-Rock band is a band under an independent label who's genre is rock music.

[chipdip18]

Indie-rock is not its own genre because genres reflect the style of the music, and not the level of popularity or label a given band is under.

Rock is a genre, Indie is not

Therefore, an Indie-Rock band is a band under an independent label who's genre is rock music.


Could we, just here and right now, make Indie-Rock a genre? I hereby declare Indie-Rock a genre!

[chaosB4storm]

handlikesecret:

i had to read "why so sirius black" a couple times before I believed it lol.

I say that SO much to people when I'm in a stupid mood. lol

Also, why so Sirius Satellite Radio? I love that one.

[chaosB4storm]

Could we, just here and right now, make Indie-Rock a genre? I hereby declare Indie-Rock a genre!

It would be fine with me lol because most bands that I listen to that are under independent labels share musical/vocal/lyrical similarities with eachother.

[chipdip18]

It would be fine with me lol because most bands that I listen to that are under independent labels share musical/vocal/lyrical similarities with eachother.

Haha same here.


Indie-Rock is now a genre. No excuses, no complaints.

[chaosB4storm]

Haha same here.


Indie-Rock is now a genre. No excuses, no complaints.

I would agree to this if it didn't mean selling out on all of the opinions I've displayed previously lol

[chipdip18]

I would agree to this if it didn't mean selling out on all of the opinions I've displayed previously lol

Hahahah.

[hoods]

the Garden State soundtrack duh

no I'd say any band who your average music consumer wouldn't know

Yeah, but it also has a distinctive sound IMO.

Even though they are signed, Cursive and Bloc Party are two bands that I consider Indie.


But if you want to get technical, Indie stand for independent, so it's any band that isn't signed and what not. But I and many others don't go by that.

[versus_god]

It can be that a band isn't signed or that they're signed to an independent record label.

[theguy77]

indie has become a genre, therefore its kind of stupid to attatch the indie tag to bands signed to an independent label. genres are meant to describe music not a business status.

i agree with the statement about indie basically being quirky, mellow, semi-folky music driven mostly by pure creativity and not striving to adhere to the specific aesthetics of any particular genre. indie is a genre yes but one without specific aesthetics, it's unique because several aesthetics can be attained within it.

[hockeyguitar99]

It can be that a band isn't signed or that they're signed to an independent record label.

thtats the definition that I try to go by even though I've already said otherwise in this thread because it really can't be argued.

[Genuma]

thtats the definition that I try to go by even though I've already said otherwise in this thread because it really can't be argued.
Fuck you.

[hockeyguitar99]

indie has become a genre, therefore its kind of stupid to attatch the indie tag to bands signed to an independent label. genres are meant to describe music not a business status.

i agree with the statement about indie basically being quirky, mellow, semi-folky music driven mostly by pure creativity and not striving to adhere to the specific aesthetics of any particular genre. indie is a genre yes but one without specific aesthetics, it's unique because several aesthetics can be attained within it.

I'd say that normally I would agree with your last paragraph but people have too many different definitions of it so that I just use the first one.

[x togepi x]

indie has become a genre, therefore its kind of stupid to attatch the indie tag to bands signed to an independent label. genres are meant to describe music not a business status.

i agree with the statement about indie basically being quirky, mellow, semi-folky music driven mostly by pure creativity and not striving to adhere to the specific aesthetics of any particular genre. indie is a genre yes but one without specific aesthetics, it's unique because several aesthetics can be attained within it.

Indie stands for independent, it's a modifier in way more than just music. So to say "it's kind of stupid to attach the indie tag to bands signed to an independent label", you're basically ignoring the entire context in which one says "indie rock" which is completely asinine. It's just like indie films.

besides, your argument that it's now a genre is deeply flawed as the term "indie rock" doesn't even necessarily mean what you just said it is. I've heard way more than just "semi-folky" music called "indie", things like Maritime, Ted Leo, or Someone Still Loves You Boris Yeltsin.

[theguy77]

Indie stands for independent, it's a modifier in way more than just music. So to say "it's kind of stupid to attach the indie tag to bands signed to an independent label", you're basically ignoring the entire context in which one says "indie rock" which is completely asinine. It's just like indie films.

besides, your argument that it's now a genre is deeply flawed as the term "indie rock" doesn't even necessarily mean what you just said it is. I've heard way more than just "semi-folky" music called "indie", things like Maritime, Ted Leo, or Someone Still Loves You Boris Yeltsin.

i love this band.

so, it's hard to describe exactly what indie is. and maybe the term "indie" does originally come from a description of business status. but my case is that indie is now used as a genre, and better suited that way anyway. when you recommend indie music to people you cant possibly just be recommending every single artist not on a major label, theres too little accuracy to pinpoint the exact feel of the music you're talking about. it's already wide enough a genre as it is. i mean what, are metal bands indie? that just sounds ludicrous in the context of the word's current usage.

[IWasaCamera]

That's exactly his point isn't it? The current usage is incorrect.

[AP_Punk]

plan it x records.

[x togepi x]

i love this band.

they come see my band play sometimes, that makes me cool, right? haha.

so, it's hard to describe exactly what indie is. and maybe the term "indie" does originally come from a description of business status. but my case is that indie is now used as a genre, and better suited that way anyway.

no it's not. you say it yourself later that indie is a wide genre, which makes it essentially meaningless. if we're talking "genre"-wise all sorts of bands that don't really sound like each other get lumped in as indie: modest mouse, boris yeltsin, the shins, the strokes, almost any pitchfork band, etc. That's not a good basis for be a genre. there's no real way to define it. You say its semi-folky music but some kid in portland might say it's lo-fi garage rock. Who's definition do we prefer here? Since there aren't cut and dry genre rules for indie as a genre like there are for say crust punk, there's no way for us to really make this count as a genre that makes sense to use.

compare this to the original interpretation of indie, which is independent music. it's quite cut and dry: if you're on a major label, you're not an indie band. there's no real debate on the subject (aside what counts as an indie label but even with that debate, you can come up with clear standards).

i'm sorry but an interpretation with clear standards is always going to beat a vague, nebulous genre.

when you recommend indie music to people you cant possibly just be recommending every single artist not on a major label, theres too little accuracy to pinpoint the exact feel of the music you're talking about.

first off, you could actually be reccomending random artists not on a major label, much like people who recc indie films are just picking films not done by a major studio. The difference between an indie film like "Margot and the Wedding" and the original "Dawn of the Dead" is just as big as the difference between some folky band and Fugazi.

secondly, you can't say that we're looking for an accurate standard to pinpoint the exact feel of the music you're talking about because indie, as you've admitted, woudl be considered a wide genre. It's not all folky stuff. A Twee band like Tullycraft is not going to sound much like Martime. A lo-fi garage band isn't going to sound like the Shins. Yet, as a genre, people still lump them in as indie. You can't really say there are theoretical rules defining this genre to make it accurate because there aren't.

it's already wide enough a genre as it is. i mean what, are metal bands indie?

yes, here's a list:

The Sword
old Mastadon
Municipal Waste
Pelican
Russian Circles
Isis
Neurosis
functionally every doom metal band

[alltimecam]

where do you guys live that say anything is big in your area
i guess being from the yay (or the bay area) the only thing people listen to are shitty gangsta rappas

[theguy77]

well, togepi, you're right, any genre that wide has no real usage, but its suited me in the respect that indie music is plainly creative quirky music that doesnt necessarily fit any other existing, more specific genre. that's not to say that all indie is the most creative music in the world and thats not to say that if its not indie its not creative. most post-hardcore will be more creative than most indie-pop, for example. anyway my argument sort of falls apart there, i mean the description is pretty vague and not even close to encompassing the trademarks of all bands considered indie. but to this point i tend to know what a person is talking about when they say indie, its given me means to separate those certain non-radio bands from other independent artists of genres like pop-punk, post-hardcore, folk, etc. how else do you suppose many of the bands put under this term be classified when they're all so different? you cant just make a genre for every band. i know there are a few people who would simply reply "you don't" but though they may not be necessary genres do make recommendations/description easier, and music discussion more interesting. it provides a realm through which music communities can connect on common ground. without those specific subgenres, appreciation of indie music remains less like a community and more like a big competition of which artists receive the most intellectual praise for creativity and lyrics, and who enjoys these artists on a supposed "higher level" than everyone else. this sort of elitism is bred because theres no separation between bands who write with different aims in mind, so its all about who writes it "better" rather than who writes it in their own preffered way. ive talked to my friend will about this and this is exactly why he hates britain's indie music scene, because the bands instead of trying to excel with their own standards and having a good time playing with other similar bands, they're more at each otehrs throats in an originality contest. and likewise he hates going to the shows because everyone's out there with their noses stuck up their asses acting like they know what no one else knows about this band, appreciates them better and more thoroughly, and just overall considering themselves better indie fans, rather than enjoying the community of other people who like the same band.

wow that was really long, and it got really fucking off-topic. i think i need to go to bed. if you want you can break it up into segments and reply haha.

[thesafeword]

where do you guys live that say anything is big in your area
i guess being from the yay (or the bay area) the only thing people listen to are shitty gangsta rappas
Well fuck you. Say Anything is pretty cool.

[alltimecam]

Well fuck you. Say Anything is pretty cool.

haha i agree i just wish the people i knew agreed to or had at least heard of say anything

[Reflecting]

Indie-rock is not its own genre because genres reflect the style of the music, and not the level of popularity or label a given band is under.

Rock is a genre, Indie is not

Therefore, an Indie-Rock band is a band under an independent label who's genre is rock music.

Yes, but indie-rock has a much different sound than "rock". Wolf Parade and The Rolling Stones don't really sound alike. "indie", when used in the phrase "indie-rock" refers to a sound and not a label or level of popularity.

[alice+interiors]

Solid bump.

[x togepi x]

Yes, but indie-rock has a much different sound than "rock". Wolf Parade and The Rolling Stones don't really sound alike. "indie", when used in the phrase "indie-rock" refers to a sound and not a label or level of popularity.

No, indie rock doesn't have a "much different sound", it just sounds different because of production values. like i said in my response to theguy77, indie rock isn't a specific sound because there are so many bands that sound completely different that get called indie like Wolf Parade and Fugazi not really sounding anything alike.

[chaosB4storm]

No, indie rock doesn't have a "much different sound", it just sounds different because of production values. like i said in my response to theguy77, indie rock isn't a specific sound because there are so many bands that sound completely different that get called indie like Wolf Parade and Fugazi not really sounding anything alike.

thank you

[kearn1tm]

It's a relative label.

Let's take the Arcade Fire; a band signed to an independent label (Merge in the states) and not nearly a household name nor a band who's music is widespread among the average music listener.

However, they've been on the cover of one of the most respected and well-circulated print periodicals, Time Magazine, they're consistently covered by music enthusiast press, ala' Rolling Stone, Spin, Blender and the Blogosphere as well as having their last album, Neon Bible, debuted at #2 on the American Billboard charts, going on to sell over 200,000 copies in the US. 200,000 is a considerable amount of units to push in the current album climate, especially for an "indie band."

So, is "Indie" a sound or a status predicated on popularity and recognition? Even if a band is on an independent label, are they still "indie" despite how well-known they are?

[versus_god]

Yes.

[theguy77]

i still like the idea of attatching other genres to the term indie to form subgenres. like arcade fire would be baroque-indie.

[x togepi x]

it'd be indie baroque because you wouldn't say Arcade fire is baroque independent.

[chaosB4storm]

i still like the idea of attatching other genres to the term indie to form subgenres. like arcade fire would be baroque-indie.

those would not be subgenres. Those would be ways of describing both the genre and the type of label.