Brett Guerwitz calls conservative punk an oxymoron [Archive]

Sinister Rouge

04/14/04, 02:44 AM

Brett Guerwitz, guitarist of Bad Religion and founder of Epitaph

In Other Post About the Conservative Punk Rockers Mr Brett Wrote an Interesting Opjnion : " Jello Biafra and the Dead Kennedys had a song for conservative punk rockers. It went like this: "Nazi Punks Fuck Off". I agreed with it then and I agree with it today. The punk scene has always had an ugly side, a small nasty faction that threatened to undermine it's major ideals of free thought, dissent and indiviuality. There were racist skins like the band Screwdriver, and the nazi punks that used to plague DK and BR shows with their narrow mindedness and violence. This is the punk conservatism that I'm familiar with and it's still around today with a new gloss of respectablility thanks to the internet and a slick republican propaganda machine, more adept at manipulating mass media than any in history. Conservative Punk is an Oxymoron today just as Nazi Punk was when Jello wrote his song and it's no less insidious to our scene "

I completely agree...

Skrewdriver and bands like these make me vomit, there is still white power music.

I wish Jello and the other DK band memebers stop fighting and get back together, they were awesome.

yeat182

04/14/04, 08:15 AM

assuming that all conservatives are racists and skinheads makes me want to vomit.

Love As Arson

04/14/04, 10:06 AM

He is right about conservative punk being an oxymoron. Traditionally punk is based on more liberal ideas.

yeat182

04/14/04, 10:23 AM

i always thought "punk" was about being an individual and thinking for yourself and respecting other points of view...i guess not.

The Bled 13

04/14/04, 11:53 AM

i always thought "punk" was about being an individual and thinking for yourself and respecting other points of view...i guess not.

Punk is all about that. But what is punk about taking advantage of the week? Or strong corporate powers? How punk is that?

And I agree with you on the assumption part, that is just wrong.

Love As Arson

04/14/04, 11:56 AM

i always thought "punk" was about being an individual and thinking for yourself and respecting other points of view...i guess not.
It was about being an individual. If you look at when punk originated and what it stood for you will see that it was based on more liberal ideas.

logalog

04/14/04, 12:02 PM

Smalller govt. hands off and letting ourselves make upp our oown minds are what I like. I don't care what you waant to label me as.

yeat182

04/14/04, 12:27 PM

Punk is all about that. But what is punk about taking advantage of the week? Or strong corporate powers? How punk is that?

And I agree with you on the assumption part, that is just wrong.

see, that is the thing i have a problem with, not all conservatives (i would say the majority) "take advatage of the weak" or what have you, most like to see the people keep their rights by having a smaller government, lower taxes, etc. Saying that all conservatives are skin heads and racists is wrong, in fact most liberals do more to perpetuate discrimination and racism than conservatives...(not saying they are nessesarily racist but things like affirmative action can be seen as perpetuating the problem)

yeat182

04/14/04, 12:28 PM

It was about being an individual. If you look at when punk originated and what it stood for you will see that it was based on more liberal ideas.

perhaps, but those were diffrent times than they are today, you have to change your thinking with the times, and apparetly Bad Religion wants to live in the late 1970's/early 80's...

Sinister Rouge

04/14/04, 01:04 PM

Brett in this quote was answering a question from a poster who asked about what he thinked about conservativepunk.com. He is right...conservative punk is an oxymoron and supporting this president is NOT punk. Michael Graves and Dave Smalley are wrong. There is liberatarianism in punk, but there is alot of socialist ideas in punk..."anarchism". Punk was political in the 80's. Bands like the Clash, Minor Threat, Dead Kennedys, Bad Religion, and Crass were leftist bands in the 80's. Reagan and Margret Thatcher is the reason why the scene became political in the 80's. When punk music today is getting political and bashing Bush, its going back to its roots where its suppose to be and bands like Anti-Flag reminds me of the 80's.

Punk is left wing...

yeat182

04/14/04, 01:20 PM

hXc_pwnage

04/14/04, 04:08 PM

see, that is the thing i have a problem with, not all conservatives (i would say the majority) "take advatage of the weak" or what have you, most like to see the people keep their rights by having a smaller government, lower taxes, etc. Saying that all conservatives are skin heads and racists is wrong, in fact most liberals do more to perpetuate discrimination and racism than conservatives...(not saying they are nessesarily racist but things like affirmative action can be seen as perpetuating the problem)
I must say, I agree with yeat here.

hXc_pwnage

04/14/04, 04:10 PM

Sinister Rouge

04/14/04, 05:31 PM

If punk is about being left wing, than punk has lost the reason it started. It started because people wanted to be different. They didn't want to be one in the crowd. No where does it say anything about being conservative, liberal, anarchist, communist, etc. What about (I think it's DeeDee[excuse my spelling) Ramone...he's conservative. Is he no longer a punk?

Its Johnny Ramone thats conservative...I think Joey and Dee Dee were liberal.

Punk is left wing because being a lefitist radical is being different while being a capitalist is being with the crowd.

I did not make the difference between conservatives and neo-cons. Guerwitz didn't really make it either. I think he meant Bush supporters, because there are a lot of conservatives angry at Bush. I have no problem with people who want small government....its presidents who kill people and deny freedom punk has a problem with.

hXc_pwnage

04/14/04, 06:40 PM

Sinister Rouge

04/14/04, 07:00 PM

I always read liberals wanted smaller government...hmmm. I guess I agree with conservatives there.

Ok, Johnny...so is he not punk? Just because he is conservative?

Who is to say being conservative is going with the crowd? If you didn't notice...Gore won popular vote. Doesn't that make you think there may be more liberals?

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Most of punk is in the bottom left corner...they want small government (stay out of our business) and thats is really left wing, but punk believes in equality so punk is left on economics.

Usually conservatives are on the bottom right corner of the scale, but Bush is on the upper right portion of the scale.

I don't really care for the Ramones, but what idea Johnny is supporting is unpunk.

SwingingMics

04/14/04, 08:44 PM

Libs want big gov't, they want gov't to solve their problems for them.

hXc_pwnage

04/14/04, 08:57 PM

Libs want big gov't, they want gov't to solve their problems for them.
I think it's because I am Anarcho-Socialist...but I know it is like super idealistic so I just go with liberal.

I am a rebel.

Sinister Rouge

04/14/04, 10:52 PM

I think it's because I am Anarcho-Socialist...but I know it is like super idealistic so I just go with liberal.

I am a rebel.

I am also an anarcho-socialist, I am not a liberal.

yeat182

04/15/04, 05:43 AM

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

but punk believes in equality so punk is left on economics.

first of all, again you are insinuating that conservatives don't believe in equality, which is wrong, of course conservatives believe in equality. and even the more extreme conservatives believe that people should be treated equally rather than recieving some sort of hand out or entitlement from the government simply because they are "different".

Justin_stacy

04/15/04, 02:29 PM

Its funny that a person can be so ignorant as to imply that all “conservatives” are Nazis……This is like me implying that all “lefties” are Stalinists……To me it looks like we have a budding Moore coming out in Brett….

Sinister Rouge

04/15/04, 02:33 PM

Justin_stacy

04/15/04, 02:42 PM

He never called conservatives nazis.

and i didn't use the word "called".....

Sinister Rouge

04/15/04, 02:43 PM

He did not imply it either, he compared them, but he didn't imply.

Justin_stacy

04/15/04, 02:52 PM

He did not imply it either, he compared them, but he didn't imply.

" Jello Biafra and the Dead Kennedys had a song for conservative punk rockers. It went like this: "Nazi Punks Fuck Off". I agreed with it then and I agree with it today.

There were racist skins like the band Screwdriver, and the nazi punks that used to plague DK and BR shows with their narrow mindedness and violence. This is the punk conservatism that I'm familiar with and it's still around today with a new gloss of respectablility thanks to the internet and a slick republican propaganda machine, more adept at manipulating mass media than any in history. "

On top of that just bring up "nazism" when answer a question about Conservativepunk is implying a connection between the two.... so stop trying to play games to defend this idiot....

Sinister Rouge

04/15/04, 03:03 PM

" Jello Biafra and the Dead Kennedys had a song for conservative punk rockers. It went like this: "Nazi Punks Fuck Off". I agreed with it then and I agree with it today.

There were racist skins like the band Screwdriver, and the nazi punks that used to plague DK and BR shows with their narrow mindedness and violence. This is the punk conservatism that I'm familiar with and it's still around today with a new gloss of respectablility thanks to the internet and a slick republican propaganda machine, more adept at manipulating mass media than any in history. "

On top of that just bring up "nazism" when answer a question about Conservativepunk is implying a connection between the two.... so stop trying to play games to defend this idiot....

He is not calling conservatives nazis...he is calling both kinds of "punk" ignorant. He is calling the right wing ignorant which it is. A lot of conservatives are racists and their is still racist punks.

This "idiot" saved punk rock and if it wasn't for him, Dr. Graffin and Bad Religion, you would be listening to shittier music right now.

Sinister Rouge

04/15/04, 03:09 PM

first of all, again you are insinuating that conservatives don't believe in equality, which is wrong, of course conservatives believe in equality. and even the more extreme conservatives believe that people should be treated equally rather than recieving some sort of hand out or entitlement from the government simply because they are "different".

It seems their policies don't reflect their beliefs.

Justin_stacy

04/15/04, 03:26 PM

. right wing ignorant which it is. ..

Spoken by a true ignorant individual......veiws don't make a person ignorant its their reasoning for having them, that can put them into this category...

A lot of conservatives are racists ..

and lot of liberals, if not more, are just as racist; you think treating a minority "group" as a dependent class isn't racist?

This "idiot" saved punk rock and if it wasn't for him, Dr. Graffin and Bad Religion, you would be listening to shittier music right now.

It doesn't take the same type of intelligence to make music as it does to make a rational argument, Brett is able to do the first, but is obviously, from this article, lacking in the second..….and anyway ones musical ability doesn’t give one an automatic pass when they make a stupid comment……..

Sinister Rouge

04/15/04, 03:41 PM

Spoken by a true ignorant individual......veiws don't make a person ignorant its their reasoning for having them, that can put them into this category...

and lot of liberals, if not more, are just as racist; you think treating a minority "group" as a dependent class isn't racist?

It doesn't not take the same type of intelligence to make music as it does to make a rational argument, Brett is able to do the first, but is obviously, from this article, lacking in the second..….and anyway ones musical ability doesn’t give one an automatic pass when they make a stupid comment……..

Views can make a person ignorant...like racism...

Liberal's "racism" leads the minority groups to better lives, conservative racism seeks to bring them down.

It was not an article, it was a post on a message board..I would have asked him to clarify, but I knows he doesn't mean all conservatives are racist. His last line in the post is dean on correct. Dr. Graffin also said in an interview that true punks wouldn't vote for Bush, he wrote an AMAZING essay on Bad Religion's website about the meaning of punk.

PUNK IS: the personal expression of uniqueness that comes from the experiences of growing up in touch with our human ability to reason and ask questions.

PUNK IS: a movement that serves to refute social attitudes that have been perpetuated through willful ignorance of human nature.

PUNK IS: a process of questioning and commitment to understanding that results in self-progress, and through repetition, flowers into social evolution.

PUNK IS: a belief that this world is what we make of it, truth comes from our understanding of the way things are, not from the blind adherence to prescriptions about the way things should be.

PUNK IS: the constant struggle against fear of social repercussions

Justin_stacy

04/15/04, 03:48 PM

Liberal's "racism" leads the minority groups to better lives, conservative racism seeks to bring them down.

or we could be truthful and say that Liberal's racism keeps minority's as second class citizens and dependents....while conservative "racism" calls for minority's to be treated equally and not given any special "treatments" just because of their skin color...

hXc_pwnage

04/15/04, 03:51 PM

Saying conservatives can't be punks isn't equality. That is saying they aren't good enough.

Justin_stacy

04/15/04, 03:54 PM

It was not an article, it was a post on a message board..I would have asked him to clarify, but I knows he doesn't mean all conservatives are racist.

all i can go by, from not know this person directly, is what he wrote, and in this "posting" he made implication that made him look like an idiot....now this might not be true, but like i said all i have to go by is your posting...

Sinister Rouge

04/15/04, 04:02 PM

Conservative right wing racism...look up KKK. While its obvious that most conservatives aren't racist, conservative do it yourself policies don't give poor minorities really much of a chance. That is not equality.

Sinister Rouge

04/15/04, 04:09 PM

Saying conservatives can't be punks isn't equality. That is saying they aren't good enough.

Neo-conservatism is NOT punk. But beliefs in a small government is a punk ideal, and if that is the definition of conservative, yes they are punk. But Bush supporters go against the punk ideal. There are many conservatives that will not vote Bush in this election. This is how out of touch with America Bush is.

I belief in small government and Big Brother too stay out of my business, but I also want the government to help the disadvantaged and I am for nationalized health care (but a fair HC with patients rights and allowance of patients to use private means). A lot of our money Uncle sams asks us for is going to needless military spending, not social services.

Justin_stacy

04/15/04, 04:25 PM

Conservative right wing racism...look up KKK. .
Liberal left-wing racism...look up Executive Order 9066.....but what real value does talking about this kind of past have on an arguement of current ideas?

That is not equality.
basing everything on the idea of skin color isn't equality either...infact its just the opposite...

BrandNew20

04/15/04, 04:37 PM

Sinister Rouge

04/15/04, 06:25 PM

I'm liberal, but to say that Conservatives can't be punk is stupid. Yes, Nazi Punks can fuck off as far as I'm concerned but no one here is a nazi punk and no one here is ignorant enough to think that they are better than someone based upon the color of their skin...

I think the words "liberal" and "conservative" have been overgeneralized. Conservatives can be punk, but neo-cons like Bush are not punk, here is why.

PUNK IS: the personal expression of uniqueness that comes from the experiences of growing up in touch with our human ability to reason and ask questions.

Bush and his administration doesn't want you to ask questions. His administration has attacked people that have raised questions or criticisms about him. He has ignored criticism and questioning on the Iraq war and we have payed dearly.

PUNK IS: a movement that serves to refute social attitudes that have been perpetuated through willful ignorance of human nature.

The Iraq War has been the result of an attitude of williful ignorance of human nature. War caused by human ignorace is a fair arguement, but the will to live in peace is also human nature. Authoritarianism like Bush and Saddam are willfully ignoring human nature. True conservatives don't like authoriatarianism...Bush is out of touch with the republican base.

PUNK IS: a process of questioning and commitment to understanding that results in self-progress, and through repetition, flowers into social evolution.

Bush's policies in reality kills social evolution. Creating more terrorists is not social evolution.

PUNK IS: a belief that this world is what we make of it, truth comes from our understanding of the way things are, not from the blind adherence to prescriptions about the way things should be.

Bush blindly does the latter.

PUNK IS: the constant struggle against fear of social repercussions

Bush causes fear of social repercussions. Many people in this country have fought against the social degration of this country like Emma Goldman and Martin Luther King. King didn't fear death, he was more concerned about social evolution and equality. He was more "punk" than anyone.

Justin_stacy

04/15/04, 11:19 PM

There are many conservatives that will not vote Bush in this election. This is how out of touch with America Bush is.
.

I think you failed to realize why most of those conservative are choose not to support him, and that’s because of his liberal stance on entitlements, education, spending and immigration......so the things that these conservatives dislike about him and the things you feel make him out of touch with America, are in fact things that the left tries to hold in their platform....so in turn does this mean liberals, too, are completely out of touch with Americans?

yeat182

04/15/04, 11:20 PM

Neo-conservatism is NOT punk. But beliefs in a small government is a punk ideal, and if that is the definition of conservative, yes they are punk. But Bush supporters go against the punk ideal. There are many conservatives that will not vote Bush in this election. This is how out of touch with America Bush is.

I belief in small government and Big Brother too stay out of my business, but I also want the government to help the disadvantaged and I am for nationalized health care (but a fair HC with patients rights and allowance of patients to use private means). A lot of our money Uncle sams asks us for is going to needless military spending, not social services.

frankly, i'd rather see the money spent on the military than wasted on welfare and other social programs that don't work or are easily abused. the government is here to protect the citizens, not give them handouts.

Sinister Rouge

04/15/04, 11:35 PM

I think you failed to realize why most of those conservative are choose not to support him, and that’s because of his liberal stance on entitlements, education, spending and immigration......so the things that these conservatives dislike about him and the things you feel make him out of touch with America, are in fact things that the left tries to hold in their platform....so in turn does this mean liberals, too, are completely out of touch with Americans?

Conservatives don't like him because he has continues to spend while compiling a record deficit. There is also a thing called the PATRIOT ACT......and also just being a bad president.

Sinister Rouge

04/15/04, 11:36 PM

frankly, i'd rather see the money spent on the military than wasted on welfare and other social programs that don't work or are easily abused. the government is here to protect the citizens, not give them handouts.

Every gun that is made. every warship that is launched, every rocket fires signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." -- President Dwight D Eisenhower

Eisenhower was a conservative.

Justin_stacy

04/15/04, 11:56 PM

Conservatives don't like him because he has continues to spend while compiling a record deficit. .

by participating in liberal practices...i already covered this...

Justin_stacy

04/15/04, 11:57 PM

......and also just being a bad president.

it could also be worse....look at who he ran against, is running against...

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 12:00 AM

by participating in liberal practices...i already covered this...

Lately, it was the conservative presidencies who had the big deficits and a democrat named Clinton had a budget surplus....

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 12:01 AM

it could also be worse....look at who he ran against, is running against...

He is running against a better candidate..not a good candidate, but a much better one.

Justin_stacy

04/16/04, 12:05 AM

Every gun that is made. every warship that is launched, every rocket fires signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." -- President Dwight D Eisenhower

Eisenhower was a conservative.

Eisenhower on military funding....

"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
- General Dwight D. Eisenhower

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 12:13 AM

Eisenhower on military funding....

"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
- General Dwight D. Eisenhower

We need military spending, don't get me wrong, the troops need protection...but we are wasting money still on Cold War projects...missle shield for example....last time I checked, China was becoming slowly a democracy.

If men can develop weapons that are so terrifying as to make the thought of global war include almost a sentence for suicide, you would think that man's intelligence and his comprehension... would include also his ability to find a peaceful solution.
Dwight D. Eisenhower

Justin_stacy

04/16/04, 12:18 AM

Lately, it was the conservative presidencies who had the big deficits and a democrat named Clinton had a budget surplus....

It is also a democrat, named Clinton, that was handed a recovered economy, from a republican, and turned around and handed a crumbling economy to a republican...that of course must be recovered at a cost...so if Kerry wins we could possibly see a cycle forming, couldn't we...?

And to play your little budget game who controlled both houses at the time of the Clinton era? And who was it that drugged him kicking and screaming to that balanced budget?

Justin_stacy

04/16/04, 12:21 AM

He is running against a better candidate..not a good candidate, but a much better one.

Did no stance Kerry drop out or something?.....I mean I haven't been around a TV for awhile due to prior engagements....but I still thought Kerry was the DNC's go to man....

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 12:25 AM

It is also a democrat, named Clinton, that was handed a recovered economy, from a republican, and turned around and handed a crumbling economy to a republican...that of course must be recovered at a cost...so if Kerry wins we could possibly see a cycle forming, couldn't we...?

And to play your little budget game who controlled both houses at the time of the Clinton era? And who was it that drugged him kicking and screaming to that balanced budget?

Clinton had a great economic team..he was not dragged kicking and screaming. The other republicans administrations had large deficits.

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 12:27 AM

Did no stance Kerry drop out or something?.....I mean I haven't been around a TV for awhile due to prior engagements....but I still thought Kerry was the DNC's go to man....

Bush has the conviction of a deer that doesn't get out of the road when a car is coming.

It is a bad thing, his "steady" leadership is a steady course off a cliff.

Justin_stacy

04/16/04, 12:29 AM

We need military spending, don't get me wrong, the troops need protection...but we are wasting money still on Cold War projects...missle shield for example....last time I checked, China was becoming slowly a democracy.

China isn't the only threat in the world, nor are they the only communist nation, or nation period, with missiles......nor is China anywhere near becoming a democracy, yes capitalism allows people to live better lives so of course the people of China want capitalism, but the Communist still hold true power, and they have no interest in giving up that control...

more proof of this is the current crack down that china is putting on Hong Kong....effectively ended the idea of one nation two systems...

Justin_stacy

04/16/04, 12:30 AM

Bush has the conviction of a deer that doesn't get out of the road when a car is coming.

:ernaehrun

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 12:33 AM

China isn't the only threat in the world, nor are they the only communist nation, or nation period, with missiles......nor is China anywhere near becoming a democracy, yes capitalism allows people to live better lives so of course the people of China want capitalism, but the Communist still hold true power, and they have no interest in giving up that control...

slowly - key word there. China is still held by the communist party but the people are slowly gaining more freedom and soon they'll ask for more. Democracy will be much slower coming than it was in Russia.

We also pissed off the world withdrawing from the missle shield ban treaty, thats Dubya. Then we found out the threat was different.

Justin_stacy

04/16/04, 12:41 AM

slowly - key word there

a snails pace doesn't mean they cease to be a threat....the key word being threat...

and as the communist lose power, like you think they will, they will only become that much more volatile and their weapons will only become that much more dangerous…..

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 12:48 AM

a snails pace doesn't mean they cease to be a threat....the key word being threat...

China is not a big threat....maintain good relations and they aren't a threat and America shouldn't interevene in the Taiwan situation unless its at the negoiations table.

North Korea, thats a legitimite threat and Bush's axis of evil speech made things MUCH worse.

"and as the communist lose power, like you think they will, they will only become that much more volatile and their weapons will only become that much more dangerous….."

Not true....

Justin_stacy

04/16/04, 01:02 AM

China is not a big threat....

North Korea, thats a legitimite threat and Bush's axis of evil speech made things MUCH worse.

Well I mentioned north Korea above and the shelded isn't centered on all things Chinese either it is open to all foreigners who wish to confront it. And I completely disagree with your second comment, dong would have never opened up to talks with only the "all talk and do nothing" UN pestering him, sanctions don’t work on leaders who don't care about their people.....but of course your entitled to your opinion...

Justin_stacy

04/16/04, 01:08 AM

"and as the communist lose power, like you think they will, they will only become that much more volatile and their weapons will only become that much more dangerous….."

Not true....

its absolutely true, and part has been proven true...russian weapons are now far more dangerous to us then they ever were during the, so called, Cold War, because of who now control them and the mind set of these people and this would be the samething that would happen with the fall of China....and as the communist lose power they will become unstable and willing to reasort to any measure to try and keep power....

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 01:15 AM

Well I mentioned north Korea above and the shelded isn't centered on all things Chinese either it is open to all foreigners who wish to confront it. And I completely disagree with your second comment, dong would have never opened up to talks with only the "all talk" UN pestering him, sanctions don’t work on the insane.....but of course your entitled to your opinion...

The bigger nuclear threat is not by missle, its by terrorists. A missle shield doesn't do shit if a nuke in a package explodes in New York harbor. We need more spending on homeland security and not cold war projects. It is a waste of tax money.

The axis of evil speech was a blunder, it is not wise to make a paranoid nation more paranoid.

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 01:18 AM

its absolutely true, and part has been proven true...russian weapons are now far more dangerous to us then they ever were during the, so called, Cold War, because of who now control them and the mind set of these people and this would be the samething that would happen with the fall of China....and as the communist lose power they will become unstable and willing to reasort to any measure to try and keep power....

Russia is different, the communists lost their power quickly and the country split apart..that is different. If China's communist party slowly loses power, this won't be a threat like Russia. Russia is a different case because the change happened quickly, but if the change happens slowly, its less likely a threat. I also don't think the communist party would lose power totally.

Justin_stacy

04/16/04, 01:23 AM

The axis of evil speech was a blunder, it is not wise to make a paranoid nation more paranoid.
it is equally unwise to allow an insane regime to continue on a path towards developing more and more weapons of destruction....North Korea, has at the most two Nukes now, how many would they have if international attention hadn't been turn towards them and pressure been placed on dong?......

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 01:32 AM

it is equally unwise to allow an insane regime to continue on a path towards developing more and more weapons of destruction....North Korea, has at the most two Nukes now, how many would they have if international attention hadn't been turn towards them and pressure been placed on dong?......

I agree with the first part of the post, but it is unwise to make a blunt speech that angers a paranoid nation and causes them to speed up their program. And international attention was on them before the axis of evil speech. We had tons of troops and allies to protect so we could have worked with our allies on NK, without listing nations on the axis of evil speech.

Justin_stacy

04/16/04, 01:43 AM

Russia is different, the communists lost their power quickly and the country split apart..that is different. If China's communist party slowly loses power, this won't be a threat like Russia. Russia is a different case because the change happened quickly, but if the change happens slowly, its less likely a threat.

Instability will follow in any nation that is ruled by force that changes "government", because the change will not come by any other means then force, even if "democratic" ideas are slowly spreading among the people, the people will still have to revolt and to win they will have to be armed....which will lead to a state of anarchy...or instability...

yeat182

04/16/04, 01:55 AM

Every gun that is made. every warship that is launched, every rocket fires signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." -- President Dwight D Eisenhower

Eisenhower was a conservative.

eisenhower is also played a major role in the creation of the "military industrial complex"

Justin_stacy

04/16/04, 01:57 AM

The bigger nuclear threat is not by missle, its by terrorists. A missle shield doesn't do shit if a nuke in a package explodes in New York harbor. We need more spending on homeland security and not cold war projects. It is a waste of tax money.
.

both should be funded, ignoring one problem to focus on another, does more to open us up for an attack then secure us.......

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 02:08 AM

Instability will follow in any nation that is ruled by force that changes "government", because the change will not come by any other means then force, even if "democratic" ideas are slowly spreading among the people, the people will still have to revolt and to win they will have to be armed....which will lead to a state of anarchy...or instability...

Instability will also follow in any nation where a minority is forcible suppressed, and like Russia, this is the same thing being doing in eastern (and northeastern) china, which is where, again similar to Russia, most of the weapons are keep....

If the change of government is slow and nonviolent, weapons will not be a problem....If it is fast and quick, I agree with you in that weapons are a problem. Democratic ideas have spread among the people already, but it is spreading into some of the leadership. China is slowly figuring out that the best interest for their economy is to allow more capitalism and more democratic ideas.

Justin_stacy

04/16/04, 02:13 AM

If the change of government is slow and nonviolent, weapons will not be a problem....If it is fast and quick, I agree with you in that weapons are a problem. Democratic ideas have spread among the people already, but it is spreading into some of the leadership. China is slowly figuring out that the best interest for their economy is to allow more capitalism and more democratic ideas.

i guess we'll have to leave this up to time.....although i think you under estimate the power communism gives to an elite few and i can't imagine a reason why this group would be willing to give up power with out a fight...

*also, i might add that i had quite an enjoyable time chatting with you, and hope that we can do it again in the near future....

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 02:22 AM

eisenhower is also played a major role in the creation of the "military industrial complex"

it helped cut national military spending...but now that the corporations influence our national security incredibily, its not the result that Eisenhower had in mind.

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 02:33 AM

i guess we'll have to leave this up to time.....although i think you under estimate the power communism gives to an elite few and i can't imagine a reason why this group would be willing to give up power with out a fight...

*also, i might add that i had quite an enjoyable time chatting with you, and hope that we can do it again in the near future....

They won't really give up power, they will evolve or risk having their country fall behind.

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 02:42 AM

both should be funded, ignoring one problem to focus on another, does more to open us up for an attack then secure us.......

Terrorism is a much bigger problem, so homeland security and funding our men and women in uniform should be the great majority of the defense budget, not cold war programs. It seems to me that the military in Iraq is not funded properly for protecting our troops and I have to place the blame on both Bush and Clinton.

Although there will always be some threats, good foriegn policy lessens these threats and I believe right now, we are not engaging in it. More threats = more spending.

Safetyin#

04/16/04, 01:31 PM

, they will evolve or risk having their country fall behind.
they don't care about the counrty nor its people, its The Power these communist care about and nothing else....look at the other countries in the world that have communist regimes, NK or Cuba or Albania or Mongolia...all these countries are ruled by people who act in their best interests not those of the people who have to suffer under them....

Safetyin#

04/16/04, 01:41 PM

Although there will always be some threats, good foriegn policy lessens these threats and I believe right now, we are not engaging in it. More threats = more spending.

Good foreign policy is important, but it is not a substitute for a strong defense.....Mainland Europe is proof of this, they are masters of "policy" but they lack the will to defend themselves, so in turn when "policy" fails or when a rational conclusion can't be made with irrational people (i.e. terrorist).... They are then at the will of those attacking and subsequently appeasement will be their only option, other then defeat...

Sinister Rouge

04/16/04, 05:14 PM

Good foreign policy is important, but it is not a substitute for a strong defense.....Mainland Europe is proof of this, they are masters of "policy" but they lack the will to defend themselves, so in turn when "policy" fails or when a rational conclusion can't be made with irrational people (i.e. terrorist).... They are then at the will of those attacking and subsequently appeasement will be their only option, other then defeat...

I never said we do not need a strong defense and just a good diplomacy would subistute. Good diplomacy lowers the number of threats and lowers defense spending.