not sure if "Hero" is too strong a word... [Archive]

yeat182

04/23/04, 08:47 AM

...but this man certainly deserves our respect.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/Sports/tillman_afghanistan040423-1.html

he gave up a 3 million dollar a year contract and a bright future in the NFL to enlist and serve his country as an Army Ranger, and he was killed today in Afgahnistan. how many actors or other "celebrities", or athletes for that matter, would give up millions of dollars and a chance for fame to serve their country? not many...

cantnokdahustle

04/23/04, 02:05 PM

Ted Williams did the same thing, but survived. And has more of my respect (for what ever that's worth) than anyother person in this world (save for my wife).

i respect the man's courage, and part of me wishes to have his character and his security with his primal instinct, yet think its said that this is the only soldier being deified.

UndefinedBoy

04/23/04, 02:48 PM

i respect the man's courage, and part of me wishes to have his character and his security with his primal instinct, yet think its said that this is the only soldier being deified.

Very true. Figures only celebrities are recognized in this kind of way. While he certainly deserves it, so does every other soldier who was killed.

yeat182

04/23/04, 03:32 PM

i think this story is getting this attention because it is so out of the ordinary, and i don't think anyone is trying to take away anything from the other soliders that have lost their lives, i know i'm certainly not.

scitsofreaky

04/26/04, 02:44 AM

I heard that he also refused to get paid by the Rams $9mil to stay in Arizona. I don't really understand why they would pay him, but whatever.

jgirv17

04/26/04, 12:04 PM

I understand why some people may think it's sad that he is getting so much attention, but the way I see it is this:

For many people, they aren't able to put a real face on any soldier over seas. They are more like numbers than anything else. This desensitizing(did I just make that word up?) is causing many people to almost grow apathetic to the war efforts. Pat Tillman, on the other hand, although not personably known by many, was at least a recognizable face. He almost seemed superhuman in the pictures they had of him in Time, etc. which is why I believe it was even more of a shock that he died. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but for those who don't know someone in the military, Tillman kind of gave them someone to relate to.

Plus, throw in the fact that he refused to do any interviews once he had left the Cardinals (he didn't want any more attention than a normal soldier) you have to have respect for the guy.

burntomorrow

04/26/04, 10:01 PM

I respect all that go over seas to fight for the idea of American liberty. They are all more than honorable people.

However, I wish it was George W. & Crew fighting instead.

As a guy in Stud Terkel's, "The Good War" said, he once heard Patton addressing some GI's with the phrase...

"My guts, your blood."

Mercy Medical

04/26/04, 10:05 PM

Where the hell did the majority of this thread go?

Sinister Rouge

04/27/04, 02:53 AM

yeat182

04/27/04, 07:07 AM

hXc_pwnage

04/27/04, 01:05 PM

yeat182

04/27/04, 01:11 PM

George claims the tag "war President."

If he hasn't even been in a war fighting for this country he loves so dearly...how can he get that tag?

It's so easy to put other people's lives on the line and not your own.

because he was the president during the war. again,that arugement is lame, there haven't been to many, if any, presidents that have actively served on the front lines while in office. also, it isn't as if he has jut pulled people off the streets and thrown them into combat, these were volunteers who knew full well that serving in the military may require them to fight and die for this country, it was a choice they made, and blaming someone else for it is irresponsible.

hXc_pwnage

04/27/04, 01:19 PM

yeat182

04/27/04, 01:28 PM

I am not just blaming Bush. I am just saying that he takes all this credit for things he doesn't even do. He didn't take out Saddam, the soldiers did.

Why shouldn't a President be on the front line? He loves this country so much, he should defend it just as much as the 20 year old next to him who was offered 6 million dollars to play football.

and Hitler didn't invade poland, his soldiers did.

bush is commander in chief, he is in command, he made the decision to go into iraq and remove saddam, he in essence, took out saddam.

and a president shouldnt' be on the front line because he could die, obviously. in a time of war we can't be going through presidents left and right. that is the most impractical, unrealistic thing i've heard in a while. the love of ones country doesn't require military service, as many anti-war protesters are keen to point out.

hXc_pwnage

04/27/04, 01:32 PM

and Hitler didn't invade poland, his soldiers did.

bush is commander in chief, he is in command, he made the decision to go into iraq and remove saddam, he in essence, took out saddam.

and a president shouldnt' be on the front line because he could die, obviously. in a time of war we can't be going through presidents left and right. that is the most impractical, unrealistic thing i've heard in a while. the love of ones country doesn't require military service, as many anti-war protesters are keen to point out.
But because I am against the war, I am in essence, not patriotic? That is so stupid. ( Not saying you said that, but people do. )

So...George Steinbrenner has won all these world series...not the Yankee team. Even though they were the ones on the field all the time. Even though they went through injuries, etc. Just like the soldiers. They were the ones with their lives on the line. They were the ones over in Iraq, not Bush. He deserves no credit for taking out Saddam. Sure, for ordering it, but not for doing it.

yeat182

04/27/04, 01:42 PM

But because I am against the war, I am in essence, not patriotic? That is so stupid. ( Not saying you said that, but people do. )

So...George Steinbrenner has won all these world series...not the Yankee team. Even though they were the ones on the field all the time. Even though they went through injuries, etc. Just like the soldiers. They were the ones with their lives on the line. They were the ones over in Iraq, not Bush. He deserves no credit for taking out Saddam. Sure, for ordering it, but not for doing it.

Does a CEO of a company deserve all the credit for the success of their bussiness, or an actor for the success of a film? by the same token, does Bush deserve all the blame for the economy? i don't think anyone is saying the soldiers don't deserve credit, but certainly Bush deserves some, he is commander in chief.

UndefinedBoy

04/27/04, 04:06 PM

Does a CEO of a company deserve all the credit for the success of their bussiness, or an actor for the success of a film? by the same token, does Bush deserve all the blame for the economy? i don't think anyone is saying the soldiers don't deserve credit, but certainly Bush deserves some, he is commander in chief.

I give him full credit for removing Saddam and proceeding to fuck up Iraq!

cal1082

04/27/04, 04:21 PM

I give him full credit for removing Saddam and proceeding to fuck up Iraq!

The people in Iraq living through it would disagree with your assesment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3515884.stm

What do you think?

UndefinedBoy

04/27/04, 04:54 PM

The people in Iraq living through it would disagree with your assesment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3515884.stm

What do you think?

I'm thinking they didn't poll anyone in Fallujah.

burntomorrow

04/27/04, 06:15 PM

you want a bunch of 50+ year old men with heart conditions fighting our wars for us?

Perhaps he'd realize how ridiculous it is if he had to fight it.

hXc_pwnage

04/27/04, 06:16 PM

The people in Iraq living through it would disagree with your assesment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3515884.stm

What do you think?
I think that the BBC took all the quotes from people who like the war.

cal1082

04/27/04, 08:02 PM

I'm thinking they didn't poll anyone in Fallujah.

lol, that's a good excuse.

cal1082

04/27/04, 08:03 PM

I think that the BBC took all the quotes from people who like the war.

what? If that's the case wouldnt have been aournd 100% lol

yeat182

04/27/04, 09:22 PM

I'm thinking they didn't poll anyone in Fallujah.

2/3rds of the citizens of fallujah have left the city, those that are causing the problems are terrorists. an estimated 10,000 foreign fighters have inflitrated the country over the past year, and they are holed up in fallujah and najhaf. they certainly don't represent the will of the average iraqi.

yeat182

04/27/04, 09:25 PM

Perhaps he'd realize how ridiculous it is if he had to fight it.

perhaps you'd reaize how ridiculous a premise that is...

yeat182

04/27/04, 09:27 PM

I think that the BBC took all the quotes from people who like the war.

i only read the first handful of quotes, but there seemed to be a good mix, for and against, also a good mix of people from different countries. also, the bbc is pretty blatantly anti-war, so they why would they only show pro-war quotes? the article itself seemed pretty fair and unbiased actually...

UndefinedBoy

04/27/04, 09:46 PM

2/3rds of the citizens of fallujah have left the city, those that are causing the problems are terrorists. an estimated 10,000 foreign fighters have inflitrated the country over the past year, and they are holed up in fallujah and najhaf. they certainly don't represent the will of the average iraqi.

Regardless of just who's blowing shit up, shit is still blowing up. My point is only that in some parts of Iraq, there is utter chaos and people are dying daily.

yeat182

04/27/04, 09:55 PM

Regardless of just who's blowing shit up, shit is still blowing up. My point is only that in some parts of Iraq, there is utter chaos and people are dying daily.

yes, but in the rest of the country things are much better than they were. and those that are doing the killing are foreign insurgents, not average iraqi's and not the americans (with the exception of the accidental civillian casualties)

besides, the marines are going to go in to fallujah and wipe out the terrorists, so that will be one less problem to worry about...hopefully.

UndefinedBoy

04/27/04, 10:08 PM

yes, but in the rest of the country things are much better than they were. and those that are doing the killing are foreign insurgents, not average iraqi's and not the americans (with the exception of the accidental civillian casualties)

besides, the marines are going to go in to fallujah and wipe out the terrorists, so that will be one less problem to worry about...hopefully.

One concept I don't think you'll ever understand is that you can't just go and wipe out "all the terrorists." Terrorism is a beast that can't be contained. For every head that's cut off, two more come up in its place. Sure, we can go slaughter everything that moves in Fallujah, but do you think that's going to make everything okay? I guarantee it will not.

cal1082

04/27/04, 10:17 PM

One concept I don't think you'll ever understand is that you can't just go and wipe out "all the terrorists." Terrorism is a beast that can't be contained. For every head that's cut off, two more come up in its place. Sure, we can go slaughter everything that moves in Fallujah, but do you think that's going to make everything okay? I guarantee it will not.

Same argument could be made with the communist threat.

yeat182

04/27/04, 10:19 PM

One concept I don't think you'll ever understand is that you can't just go and wipe out "all the terrorists." Terrorism is a beast that can't be contained. For every head that's cut off, two more come up in its place. Sure, we can go slaughter everything that moves in Fallujah, but do you think that's going to make everything okay? I guarantee it will not.

it might not make everything ok, but it will make things better.

UndefinedBoy

04/27/04, 10:19 PM

Same argument could be made with the communist threat.

Which communist threat are you referring to exactly?

cal1082

04/27/04, 10:28 PM

Which communist threat are you referring to exactly?

well you said we can't wipe out all terrorists that it will just spread. Same could be said about the communist thread from USSR and Cuba

UndefinedBoy

04/27/04, 10:34 PM

well you said we can't wipe out all terrorists that it will just spread. Same could be said about the communist thread from USSR and Cuba

I suppose...you can't kill terrorists, only your actions. They're pissed at us for a reason, and if we could realize that, maybe we could change our foreign policy a bit as to not anger millions of people across the globe...

cal1082

04/27/04, 10:45 PM

I suppose...you can't kill terrorists, only your actions. They're pissed at us for a reason, and if we could realize that, maybe we could change our foreign policy a bit as to not anger millions of people across the globe...

What should we do to not anger terrorists? (what an absurd question, it's sad that this could be a topic)

UndefinedBoy

04/27/04, 10:53 PM

What should we do to not anger terrorists? (what an absurd question, it's sad that this could be a topic)

I'm not trying to make terrorists happy, of course thats impossible. I'm more saying that there are things our government could do that would prevent people from becoming so angry with the US that they'd resort to terrorism.

burntomorrow

04/27/04, 11:03 PM

perhaps you'd reaize how ridiculous a premise that is...

Yet I still wouldn't be supporting a war of attrition.

cal1082

04/27/04, 11:10 PM

I'm not trying to make terrorists happy, of course thats impossible. I'm more saying that there are things our government could do that would prevent people from becoming so angry with the US that they'd resort to terrorism.

like.......

yeat182

04/28/04, 07:41 AM

Yet I still wouldn't be supporting a war of attrition.

do you know what a war of attrition is? because this isn't it...

UndefinedBoy

04/28/04, 11:46 AM

like.......

Not go where we aren't wanted, for starters. Middle Eastern terrorists are killing us because they want us out of the Middle East...well maybe we should consider that next time we invade countries in the Middle East in an attempt to destroy all terrorists.

cal1082

04/28/04, 11:50 AM

Not go where we aren't wanted, for starters. Middle Eastern terrorists are killing us because they want us out of the Middle East...well maybe we should consider that next time we invade countries in the Middle East in an attempt to destroy all terrorists.

You do know why we were in Saudi Arabia, because Saddam had the bright idea to invade Kuwait.

UndefinedBoy

04/28/04, 11:51 AM

You do know why we were in Saudi Arabia, because Saddam had the bright idea to invade Kuwait.

After we gave him weapons to fight Iran...

yeat182

04/28/04, 11:57 AM

After we gave him weapons to fight Iran...

that has nothing to do with anything...it doesn't mean we shouldn't have been in suadi arabia when they asked us to protect them.

cal1082

04/28/04, 11:58 AM

After we gave him weapons to fight Iran...

lol,lol, What does that have to do with him invading Kuwait and us in Saudi Arabi???????

You've completely ignored the reason why our troops are in Saudi Arabi, by saying, "Well we gave Saddam weapons to fight Iran." That has nothing to do with it. Stay on point

burntomorrow

04/28/04, 03:53 PM

do you know what a war of attrition is? because this isn't it...

Yes, I suppose we haven't reached the point of attrition yet, but I believe it will get to that point.

UndefinedBoy

04/28/04, 05:32 PM

lol,lol, What does that have to do with him invading Kuwait and us in Saudi Arabi???????

You've completely ignored the reason why our troops are in Saudi Arabi, by saying, "Well we gave Saddam weapons to fight Iran." That has nothing to do with it. Stay on point

While it may not seem so unrelated, he did invade Kuwait with weapons we gave him...granted it's a bit off topic, but I guess I'm trying to make a different point. My bad.

cal1082

04/28/04, 05:59 PM

While it may not seem so unrelated, he did invade Kuwait with weapons we gave him...granted it's a bit off topic, but I guess I'm trying to make a different point. My bad.

What weapons did we give him that he invade Kuwait with?