American Decapitated

[sweetsugar]

I dunno who all saw the news about it but an american news reporter was decapitated in Iraq today. It's sad that things are turning to this.
Yet another reason why the news media shouldn't be over there. It's to dangerous.

[hXc_pwnage]

Yeah, it's horrible.

Just goes to show you that these stupid fucks ( the military guys ) are causing more trouble than people think.

[yeat182]

Yeah, it's horrible.

Just goes to show you that these stupid fucks ( the military guys ) are causing more trouble than people think.


which military guys? the terrorists?

[hXc_pwnage]

The people that humiliated the Iraqi prisoners. Stupid fucks.

http://www.davva.com/beheaded.wmv

That is gross.

[yeat182]

are you saying that the guy getting beheaded is the fault of the prison guards?

[sweetsugar]

The people that humiliated the Iraqi prisoners. Stupid fucks.

http://www.davva.com/beheaded.wmv

That is gross.
You dumbass, that body has been missing since April.

[yeat182]

my problem is that a day after the video came out, it changed from being this horrible thing, to people blaming the US for it, either because of the prison abuse, or because he was held in custody (supposedly by the US, but in reality by the Iraqi police). it's ridiculous how fast it turned from being this terrible crime,to another thing the US was to blame for.

[sweetsugar]

my problem is that a day after the video came out, it changed from being this horrible thing, to people blaming the US for it, either because of the prison abuse, or because he was held in custody (supposedly by the US, but in reality by the Iraqi police). it's ridiculous how fast it turned from being this terrible crime,to another thing the US was to blame for.
I agree.....that body has been missing since april. All these allegations about prisoner abuse just came out. It's sad that it happened. I guess barbarism is still prevelant in some parts of the world, it's hard to feel bad for a group of people (the terrorist) who value human life so little.

[Sinister Rouge]

The reason why terrorists exist is because we have a bad foriegn policy and we treat people like shit, like the prision torture that went on.

This american getting beheaded is just as bad as the prisioners that were beaten to death by the US. We are both committing crimes against humanity out there.

[Jim Morgan]

the prisoners being tortured didnt have any affect on this.

They hate us.

No matter what we do, they will still hate us.

Its shoot first, ask questions later, or be killed by a suicide bomber.

[xnotedgex]

no one but ignorants are blaming this on the us....why anyone would want to watch a video of the guy getting his head cut off is beyond me....you people are some sick fucks

i hope these people are caught and dealt with eye for an eye

[sweetsugar]

no one but ignorants are blaming this on the us....why anyone would want to watch a video of the guy getting his head cut off is beyond me....you people are some sick fucks

i hope these people are caught and dealt with eye for an eye

I didn't watch the video. I'm not into that kinda thing, I like happy stuff. Not faces of death style stuff.

[sweetsugar]

the prisoners being tortured didnt have any affect on this.

They hate us.

No matter what we do, they will still hate us.

Its shoot first, ask questions later, or be killed by a suicide bomber.
I agree.

[Safetyin#]

The reason why terrorists exist is because we have a bad foriegn policy and we treat people like shit,.

so now all terrorist exist because of america.....why then do they attack other countries and their own people? are they just confused as to where america is?

Or is it that blaming America fully is an easy way of justifying their actions without having to blame those directly responsible and that which they use to justify their hate…..Extremism would exist, and has existed, without America...

In the words of Bill Maher; "Attempts to lay all Muslim problems on "American foreign policy" is pathetic alibiing for not doing the hard work of fixing Muslim society (themselves)...."

[yeat182]

The reason why terrorists exist is because we have a bad foriegn policy and we treat people like shit, like the prision torture that went on.

This american getting beheaded is just as bad as the prisioners that were beaten to death by the US. We are both committing crimes against humanity out there.

it wasn't torture, it was abuse, and realistically, it was hazing.

and what prisoners were beaten to death?

[hXc_pwnage]

no one but ignorants are blaming this on the us....why anyone would want to watch a video of the guy getting his head cut off is beyond me....you people are some sick fucks

i hope these people are caught and dealt with eye for an eye
"Eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind." ~Gandhi

[UndefinedBoy]

it wasn't torture, it was abuse, and realistically, it was hazing.

and what prisoners were beaten to death?

Since when is it just "hazing?" Last I checked lawmakers were referring to recent photos as a glimpse of "hell," and "disgusting," "appalling," and "horrifying." Sounds like more than hazing to me.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the beheading was in part due to the prison abuse: "Berg's captors said his killing was in part a response to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad." - CNN.com.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/11/decapitation/index.html

[hXc_pwnage]

All in all, the cause isn't a huge factor. The fact remains that it happened, and it won't be the last time.

The problem is that both sides think they are right and will do whatever they can to prove it, some just go farther than others.

Nothing will be resolved if stunts like this keep happening. And we can't let it keep happening.

[dretti]

Since when is it just "hazing?" Last I checked lawmakers were referring to recent photos as a glimpse of "hell," and "disgusting," "appalling," and "horrifying." Sounds like more than hazing to me.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the beheading was in part due to the prison abuse: "Berg's captors said his killing was in part a response to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad." - CNN.com.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/11/decapitation/index.html

lawmakers need to grow some fucking balls. What are we supposed to do with the prisoners give them a cup of tea and let them relax. I hope not. These were mental tactics to fuck with their heads keep them on edge. I don't see anything wrong with what they did to the prisoners, no one was killed. If the sides were switched and the prisoners were american in iraq i am positive the same sick shit would be going on.

[Sinister Rouge]

All in all, the cause isn't a huge factor. The fact remains that it happened, and it won't be the last time.

The problem is that both sides think they are right and will do whatever they can to prove it, some just go farther than others.

Nothing will be resolved if stunts like this keep happening. And we can't let it keep happening.

This quote nails it

"The leaders of the empire, the imperial mafia - George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Cheney, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, et al. ... are as fanatic and as fundamentalist as Osama bin Laden."
William Blum

Fundamentalism is the common threat here, the common evil, the common terror....

[Safetyin#]

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the beheading was in part due to the prison abuse: "Berg's captors said his killing was in part a response to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad." - CNN.com.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/11/decapitation/index.html

so if this was just in response to the "hazing" or "torture," how do you explain Daniel Pearl or Fabrizio Quattrocchi, both were be-head by muslim fanatics before Abu Ghraib......the point is, is that these thugs can say what ever they want to try and justify their actions to those that opposed the "war"...but the truth still remains that they've done this before and they will do it again no matter the actions of the coalition...

[open mind]

lawmakers need to grow some fucking balls. What are we supposed to do with the prisoners give them a cup of tea and let them relax. I hope not. These were mental tactics to fuck with their heads keep them on edge. I don't see anything wrong with what they did to the prisoners, no one was killed. If the sides were switched and the prisoners were american in iraq i am positive the same sick shit would be going on.
rumsfeld has said to expect pictures of rape and murder coming out of abu gharib and that the first wave of pictures was just the begining.
what's wrong with this shit is the clear violations of international law.

[UndefinedBoy]

lawmakers need to grow some fucking balls. What are we supposed to do with the prisoners give them a cup of tea and let them relax. I hope not. These were mental tactics to fuck with their heads keep them on edge. I don't see anything wrong with what they did to the prisoners, no one was killed. If the sides were switched and the prisoners were american in iraq i am positive the same sick shit would be going on.

Yes, let us ignore the Geneva Convention. Forcing prisoners to sodomize themselves is perfectly reasonable.

[boysdontcry]

You dumbass, that body has been missing since April.
what the fuck are you talking about? his body was found and was already sent back to the US.

[open mind]

it wasn't torture, it was abuse, and realistically, it was hazing.

and what prisoners were beaten to death?
so really those soldiers were just indoctrinating those prisoners into phi beta capa?

[yeat182]

Since when is it just "hazing?" Last I checked lawmakers were referring to recent photos as a glimpse of "hell," and "disgusting," "appalling," and "horrifying." Sounds like more than hazing to me.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the beheading was in part due to the prison abuse: "Berg's captors said his killing was in part a response to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad." - CNN.com.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/11/decapitation/index.html

i'm refering to what has been released, if there is worse stuff than i'm sure it will be labled as such, but based on the naked pictures that were released, it is more or less hazing. don't get me wrong, its absolutely wrong, but i think we need to keep it in perspective. they didn't behead anyone, they humilated them.

as for bergs captors, i believe that berg was killed in april, before the abuse scandal, the tape was released in response to the abuse.

[yeat182]

This quote nails it

"The leaders of the empire, the imperial mafia - George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Cheney, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, et al. ... are as fanatic and as fundamentalist as Osama bin Laden."
William Blum

Fundamentalism is the common threat here, the common evil, the common terror....

that isn't even remotley true.

[open mind]

i'm refering to what has been released, if there is worse stuff than i'm sure it will be labled as such, but based on the naked pictures that were released, it is more or less hazing. don't get me wrong, its absolutely wrong, but i think we need to keep it in perspective. they didn't behead anyone, they humilated them.

as for bergs captors, i believe that berg was killed in april, before the abuse scandal, the tape was released in response to the abuse.
rumsfeld has said expect to see more videos and pics some depicting rape and murder.

[yeat182]

so if this was just in response to the "hazing" or "torture," how do you explain Daniel Pearl or Fabrizio Quattrocchi, both were be-head by muslim fanatics before Abu Ghraib......the point is, is that these thugs can say what ever they want to try and justify their actions to those that opposed the "war"...but the truth still remains that they've done this before and they will do it again no matter the actions of the coalition...

excellent point, no matter what we did, whether or not we abused the prisoners or gave them a carribean cruise, that guy was going to be killed, just as the guy from mississippi would have been had he not escaped.

[yeat182]

so really those soldiers were just indoctrinating those prisoners into phi beta capa?

the fact that you make a joke like that proves that it basically amounts to hazing. i personally have seen worse things happen during pledge week. (of course, i'm only refering to the pictures that have been released so far...) i mean, Fear Factor has had worse things...

[yeat182]

rumsfeld has said expect to see more videos and pics some depicting rape and murder.

well, then that is definetly something to complain about. that is unacceptable.

[open mind]

i'm glad you beleive that, some say that releasing the pictures of abuse in abu gharib endangered troops, when really our enemies were already our enemies, and while people don't approve of the actions of the military people involved in the abuse it's not going to make moderate iraqis radical iraqis

[open mind]

the fact that you make a joke like that proves that it basically amounts to hazing. i personally have seen worse things happen during pledge week. (of course, i'm only refering to the pictures that have been released so far...) i mean, Fear Factor has had worse things...
it wasn't a joke i was trying to point out that the abuse in abu gharib was not hazing, hazing is something you do to people who are either a part of your organization or those who are trying to be a part of it.

[yeat182]

i'm glad you beleive that, some say that releasing the pictures of abuse in abu gharib endangered troops, when really our enemies were already our enemies, and while people don't approve of the actions of the military people involved in the abuse it's not going to make moderate iraqis radical iraqis

yeah, i don't think the picutres will make our troops any less safe than they are now, but it certainly won't win us any friends in the middle east. but that speaks alot to the muslim community and how they don't condemn the actions of the terrorists, and they don't stand up to them...

[open mind]

if iraq or any other country came into our country blowing it all to hell and unseated our government on bad intelligence, killing thousands of innocent civilians, saying they were going to show us how to govern a country right, i don't think there would be widespread condemnation from us of people fighting back by any means neccasary.
that's because we're always right even when we're wrong.

[Sinister Rouge]

Zarakawi may be the one who decapitated Berg...I hope hell is too hot of him.

The UAE, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia have condemned this....and abusing and murding civilians like Berg is ultra-cowardly...just like the soliders and intellegence officers in our prisons (for international detainees) worldwide.

I do agree somewhat with open mind on this:

"i'm glad you beleive that, some say that releasing the pictures of abuse in abu gharib endangered troops, when really our enemies were already our enemies, and while people don't approve of the actions of the military people involved in the abuse it's not going to make moderate iraqis radical iraqis"

but this incident also has us take step backwards in winning the hearts and minds in the Arab world and it does provide some truth in Al Qeada's propaganda. The media is right though to release these pics...it exposes the US and hopefully the US fixes this ongoing wrongdoing.

[Safetyin#]

The UAE, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia have condemned this.....

when was this, becasue as far as i had heard no arab country had condemned the act yet...

[open mind]

Zarakawi may be the one who decapitated Berg...I hope hell is too hot of him.

The UAE, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia have condemned this....and abusing and murding civilians like Berg is ultra-cowardly...just like the soliders and intellegence officers in our prisons (for international detainees) worldwide.

I do agree somewhat with open mind on this:

"i'm glad you beleive that, some say that releasing the pictures of abuse in abu gharib endangered troops, when really our enemies were already our enemies, and while people don't approve of the actions of the military people involved in the abuse it's not going to make moderate iraqis radical iraqis"

but this incident also has us take step backwards in winning the hearts and minds in the Arab world and it does provide some truth in Al Qeada's propaganda. The media is right though to release these pics...it exposes the US and hopefully the US fixes this ongoing wrongdoing.
of course these pictures aren't going to help our cause in iraq (or anywhere else in the mid east for that matter).
also not to be a smart ass but why not mix it up a little and say we're not winning minds and hearts once in awhile (see how i reversed them there)? you know just to keep us on our toes.

[Alex Djaferis]

i'm refering to what has been released, if there is worse stuff than i'm sure it will be labled as such, but based on the naked pictures that were released, it is more or less hazing. don't get me wrong, its absolutely wrong, but i think we need to keep it in perspective. they didn't behead anyone, they humilated them.

.


for many arabs, it is worse to be humiliated in such ways then be killed.

[advent tears]

what the fuck is all this bullshit?! i couldn't even read this whole thread because it's all such bullshit! not a one of you knows what the fuck they're talking about, you don't even try to see the truth. and you don't know a damned thing about any other country in the world because you're all too caught up in this country's self-indulgent enterprise to know anything beyond immediate concerns for yourself. i saw maybe 2 things posted here that made any sense or showed any actual thought...

[advent tears]

and yet i must make amends, there are in fact a few people here who know what they're talking about; it just never ceases to amaze me how ignorant the people of this country are.

[open mind]

I dunno who all saw the news about it but an american news reporter was decapitated in Iraq today. It's sad that things are turning to this.
Yet another reason why the news media shouldn't be over there. It's to dangerous.
another reason why media shouldn't cover the war from iraq? what the fuck are you talking about? if terrorists killed a busdriver in bummblefuck missouri would you say it's yet another reason why busdrivers shouldn't drive kids to school?it ammounts to the same thing, both people doing their jobs.
why is media coverage on the war bad? is it because the media doesn't always stick to the official story(although that's pretty rare)?because they are willing to call bullshit from time to time on our leaders (also rarely)?is showing two sides to a story really a bad thing?
i just don't get your view that the media is a bad thing when it comes to war coverage (especially considering they are usually more pro-war like yourself then anything else)freedom is worthless without the chance of making an informed decision.

[hXc_pwnage]

and yet i must make amends, there are in fact a few people here who know what they're talking about; it just never ceases to amaze me how ignorant the people of this country are.
That's nice. Sorry not all of us are up to your par. I haven't heard you say anything, so why don't you show us just how smart and all-knowing you are?

[xnotedgex]

for many arabs, it is worse to be humiliated in such ways then be killed.

thank you for making this point...in case no one has noticed...muslims aren't afraid to die...death is not the ultimate punishment for them...they would be martyrs in their mind...it would be a reward...sexual humiliation is far worse than death to muslims

[xnotedgex]

and yet i must make amends, there are in fact a few people here who know what they're talking about; it just never ceases to amaze me how ignorant the people of this country are.

thank you for making not a single statement of any significance

[cal1082]

rumsfeld has said to expect pictures of rape and murder coming out of abu gharib and that the first wave of pictures was just the begining.
what's wrong with this shit is the clear violations of international law.

I think the point should be that this is accepted by them, and we condemn it. We are punishing the few troops who participated in the actions. On the other hand, millions of Arabs are supporting there actions.

[yeat182]

thank you for making this point...in case no one has noticed...muslims aren't afraid to die...death is not the ultimate punishment for them...they would be martyrs in their mind...it would be a reward...sexual humiliation is far worse than death to muslims

which could mean that this may have been used as a method of interrogation, rather than just a bunch of idiots being assholes. stripping people naked to get them to talk is much more humane than breaking knee caps and holding a gun to their head (which wouldn't be effective to someone that isn't scared to die). just a thought.

[open mind]

I think the point should be that this is accepted by them, and we condemn it. We are punishing the few troops who participated in the actions. On the other hand, millions of Arabs are supporting there actions.
you've got me confused here who's them?and there?

[open mind]

which could mean that this may have been used as a method of interrogation, rather than just a bunch of idiots being assholes. stripping people naked to get them to talk is much more humane than breaking knee caps and holding a gun to their head (which wouldn't be effective to someone that isn't scared to die). just a thought.
yeah stripping down groups of prisoners and having them make human pyramids is great for interrogation (as is stripping them and attaching leashes to them) :fuckyou: .

[cal1082]

I think the point should be that this is accepted by them, and we condemn it. We are punishing the few troops who participated in the actions. On the other hand, millions of Arabs are supporting there actions.

them= most of arab world

there= people who killed Berg and Pearl

[open mind]

i haven't seen widespread approval in the arab world about the berg and pearl killings.
you have any links or polls showing that millions of middle easterns approved of those killings?

[yeat182]

yeah stripping down groups of prisoners and having them make human pyramids is great for interrogation (as is stripping them and attaching leashes to them) :fuckyou: .

no, what i'm saying is, and i'm no interrogation expert, if they aren't afraid of dying, but they are afraid of being humiliated, then this might work better than threatening them with physical violence.

[open mind]

which could mean that this may have been used as a method of interrogation, rather than just a bunch of idiots being assholes. stripping people naked to get them to talk is much more humane than breaking knee caps and holding a gun to their head (which wouldn't be effective to someone that isn't scared to die). just a thought.
the way you said it seemed like you were saying the people who commited the abuse in abu gahrib may have just been interrogating the prisoners, for the sake of argument let's say that's what they were doing i'm still not really sure about the legality of such tactics (and it's clear they were not really interrogating those people)

[UndefinedBoy]

no, what i'm saying is, and i'm no interrogation expert, if they aren't afraid of dying, but they are afraid of being humiliated, then this might work better than threatening them with physical violence.

Unfortunately we have that whole Geneva Convention thing, making these actions ILLEGAL. You cannot possibly justify the actions of the soldiers, so I wouldn't attempt to.

[yeat182]

Unfortunately we have that whole Geneva Convention thing, making these actions ILLEGAL. You cannot possibly justify the actions of the soldiers, so I wouldn't attempt to.

i wasn't trying to justify anything, if you bothered to read the original post, i was trying to explain why they did it, instead of just saying they were a bunch of asshole prison guards...

[open mind]

i wasn't trying to justify anything, if you bothered to read the original post, i was trying to explain why they did it, instead of just saying they were a bunch of asshole prison guards...
so you think it was ordered and a systematically used practice?

[open mind]

i doubt if this shit was interrogation
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4968827

[cal1082]

i haven't seen widespread approval in the arab world about the berg and pearl killings.
you have any links or polls showing that millions of middle easterns approved of those killings?

Simply look at Iraq. Instead of condeming the bombings done on our troops there citizens jump on the military vehicles and cheer. Instead of governments hunting down members of Al-Qaeda they support them.

[cal1082]

read the report yourself. It was released back in March before the pictures came out.

[open mind]

Simply look at Iraq. Instead of condeming the bombings done on our troops there citizens jump on the military vehicles and cheer. Instead of governments hunting down members of Al-Qaeda they support them.
not millions of them like you'd like believe though,and it's no suprise why some are sympathisizing with the terrorists,we went into their country blew the place to shit,polluted the landscape,killed thousands of innocent civilians,and with the abuse scandal we don't look so much better than saddam to many.
saddam was a fuckin evil bastard, and now to some iraqi's we look plenty twisted and we've brought massive instability, you can say saddam was an evil fuck but he had a handle on the crime rate and the cities weren't having massive fire fights and bombs going off daily.

[open mind]

read the report yourself. It was released back in March before the pictures came out.
the report didn't cover everything, remember it's an ongoing investigation.

[yeat182]

so you think it was ordered and a systematically used practice?

if it was ordered, this might be why it was done. i don't know if it was ordered though, most of the accused guards say they were ordered to do it, while the guy that testified yesterday said they were not ordered. we'll see.

[yeat182]

i doubt if this shit was interrogation
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4968827


some of the things i can see working for interrogation purposes, like putting a naked prisoner next to a barking dog, but the rest is just inexcusable. but, i did notice there was no mention of pictures of murdered prisoners, as some have claimed.

[cal1082]

not millions of them like you'd like believe though,and it's no suprise why some are sympathisizing with the terrorists,

You explained my point for me.

Originally Posted by cal1082
I think the point should be that this is accepted by them, and we condemn it. We are punishing the few troops who participated in the actions. On the other hand, millions of Arabs are supporting there actions.

There's a huge diffrence between the two situations and most arabs are on the side that supports these acts.

[open mind]

You explained my point for me.

Originally Posted by cal1082
I think the point should be that this is accepted by them, and we condemn it. We are punishing the few troops who participated in the actions. On the other hand, millions of Arabs are supporting there actions.

There's a huge diffrence between the two situations and most arabs are on the side that supports these acts.
no i didn't, it's not millions supporting these killings i said some, and way to just cut off 90% of my post, couldn't respond to the whole thing?

[open mind]

some of the things i can see working for interrogation purposes, like putting a naked prisoner next to a barking dog, but the rest is just inexcusable. but, i did notice there was no mention of pictures of murdered prisoners, as some have claimed.
more pictures will come this is just the begining according to rumsfeld are you gonna dispute what he says on what to expect to come out?

[cal1082]

no i didn't, it's not millions supporting these killings i said some, and way to just cut off 90% of my post, couldn't respond to the whole thing?

I misread what you posted. I didnt see where you said "not millions"

Also What? I didnt care about the whole thing. I wanted to make with what you said in the first couple of sentences, but I misread them. I promise you just because I didnt quote the rest doesnt mean I couldn't respond. I simply didnt care to respond to the rest.

[open mind]

if the reverse was true and it was iraq or any other country who invaded us on bad intelligence, polluted the country side with radioactive matieral,blew the country up all to hell, killed thousands of our innocent civilians, shut down media outlets, abused us in prisons, and caused massive de-stabilization would you be suprised if some americans supported rebels fighting against the invaders by any means neccasary?

[open mind]

didn't think so.

[yeat182]

more pictures will come this is just the begining according to rumsfeld are you gonna dispute what he says on what to expect to come out?

i haven't seen a quote of him saying there were murders, but i'm not gonna dispute what is released.

[yeat182]

if the reverse was true and it was iraq or any other country who invaded us on bad intelligence, polluted the country side with radioactive matieral,blew the country up all to hell, killed thousands of our innocent civilians, shut down media outlets, abused us in prisons, and caused massive de-stabilization would you be suprised if some americans supported rebels fighting against the invaders by any means neccasary?

i don't totally disagree with you, but these sort of things have been going on long before the US invaded Iraq.

[UndefinedBoy]

if the reverse was true and it was iraq or any other country who invaded us on bad intelligence, polluted the country side with radioactive matieral,blew the country up all to hell, killed thousands of our innocent civilians, shut down media outlets, abused us in prisons, and caused massive de-stabilization would you be suprised if some americans supported rebels fighting against the invaders by any means neccasary?

Word.

[xnotedgex]

i haven't seen a quote of him saying there were murders, but i'm not gonna dispute what is released.

me either...if he said something about pictures of murder and rape can someone please post it?

[open mind]

i don't totally disagree with you, but these sort of things have been going on long before the US invaded Iraq.
yeah but saddam didn't go into iraq saying he was saving iraqi's from bad treatment like we did, and saddam was bad but iraq was pretty stable in terms of fighting on the streets and the crime rate when he was in power

[open mind]

me either...if he said something about pictures of murder and rape can someone please post it?
looks like i misread it, it wasn't rumsfeld but senator lindsey graham r-s.c. who was given a classified briefing on the situation, who cautioned reporters the pictures may depict rape and murder.
sorry, my bad, but here's the link
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4932565

[advent tears]

That's nice. Sorry not all of us are up to your par. I haven't heard you say anything, so why don't you show us just how smart and all-knowing you are?

as much as i would truly love to, it's a bit hard for me, as i am on the other side of the world and by the time i have logged in again, there are pages between where i left off and would pick up again. so it's hard for me to keep up with the conversation. lame excuse, eh?

[cal1082]

yeah but saddam didn't go into iraq saying he was saving iraqi's from bad treatment like we did, and saddam was bad but iraq was pretty stable in terms of fighting on the streets and the crime rate when he was in power

i dont see why that matters if they were stable in terms of fighting on the streets, and crime rate?

[open mind]

it matters because we said things were going to be so much better for iraqi's but the crime rate and fighting in the streets (something that wasn't as big a problem under saddam) brings down the quality of life.

[cal1082]

it matters because we said things were going to be so much better for iraqi's but the crime rate and fighting in the streets brings down the quality of life.

It's only been liberated for a year. I'll agree that many things were under estimated by the government but it's not exactly fair to assume that everything would be back to normal in a year. Also in many terms things are better and the Iraqi poll numbers show they believe this as well.

[open mind]

iraqi's wouldn't have had such high expectations if we hadn't said things were going to be so much better with us, but since we in went taking the moral high road, the crime rate and fighting are another reason why some iraqi's think we're full of shit.

[open mind]

some polls show that most iraqi's want us out of iraq to.

[cal1082]

In every poll I've seen when asked if they think they are better off now than under Saddam they have said they are. So I dont see where you're getting that Iraqis think we are full of shit and there quality of life is down?

[open mind]

your trying to change what i was agruing about here, the point i was making earlier was why some iraqi's (not a majority) think we're full of shit and don't condemn the insurgents and terrorists.

[cal1082]

your trying to change what i was agruing about here, the point i was making earlier was why some iraqi's (not a majority) think we're full of shit and don't condemn the insurgents and terrorists.

I'm not trying to change what you're arguing about. I'm simply saying most Iraqis believe that they are better off, so I dont think the crime rate and fighting in the streets really hurts our crediblity. Most condemn these attacks as well.

I just dont understand why more arent actively fighting against them, but I might be wrong on this because I dont know how many have been signing up to police and join the new military.

[open mind]

most iraqi's distrust us now according to this poll, with the majority citing security as their chief concern, which may be why some support insurgents and terrorists.
http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=4766
(edit the link doesn't work, but if you don't believe me go to occupation watch the article is in the what iraqis are saying part of the site)
(edit again never mind i got it to work)

[cal1082]

most iraqi's distrust us now according to this poll, with the majority citing security as their chief concern, which may be why some support insurgents and terrorists.
http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=4766
(edit the link doesn't work, but if you don't believe me go to occupation watch the article is in the what iraqis are saying part of the site)
(edit again never mind i got it to work)

That's fair if they dont trust us, but they still feel they are better off. And that is our goal to make sure they are better off.

[open mind]

and now most feel they would be better off if we left.

[cal1082]

and now most feel they would be better off if we left.

Yes, perhaps because they feel they are now better off. Yet you can't leave when you have ongoing violence from diffrent militias looking to take power.

[open mind]

but if our goal is to make them feel better like you said off we'd leave, although i realize it's not realistic at this point. (i mean really if we remove ourselves the insurgents would lose their main adversary and would lose most of the people their fighting)

[cal1082]

but if our goal is to make them feel better like you said off we'd leave, although i realize it's not realistic at this point. (i mean really if we remove ourselves the insurgents would lose their main adversary and would lose most of the people their fighting)

I didnt say our goal was to make them feel better. I said it was to make sure they are better off. Us leaving now does not make sure they are better off.

[open mind]

That's fair if they dont trust us, but they still feel they are better off. And that is our goal to make sure they are better off.
okay it counts when they say they feel better off, but not when they say they would feel they are better off if we left?

[cal1082]

okay it counts when they say they feel better off, but not when they say they would feel they are better off if we left?

What counts?

[open mind]

what iraqi's say.

[cal1082]

what iraqi's are saying.

i didnt say it counted one way or another.

You said they wanted us to leave, and i said yes, perhaps because they feel they are better off.

Then i said our goal is to make sure they are better off, and leaving now does not insure they will be better off because you have a power struggle with groups like Sadr's.

[open mind]

you argued that iraqis still feel better off now even if they don't trust us and used that as a point to justify our presence, but you dismiss what they are saying when they say they'd feel better off if we left.
maybe it's a HUGE leap in logic for me to say that your saying one counts and the other doesn't.

[cal1082]

you argued that iraqis still feel better off now even if they don't trust us and used that as a point to justify our presence, but you dismiss what they are saying when they say they'd feel better off if we left.
maybe it's a HUGE leap in logic for me to say that your saying one counts and the other doesn't.

I'm not using the first to justify our presence. I'm just saying that's how it is. I also think that even though they'd feel better off if we left now, I dont think they would be better off cause you have groups like Sadr there.

[open mind]

well if you don't really care what they think don't use the fact that they feel better off as an argument then.

[cal1082]

well if you don't really care what they think don't use the fact that they feel better off as an argument then.

I'm not?

[open mind]

It's only been liberated for a year. I'll agree that many things were under estimated by the government but it's not exactly fair to assume that everything would be back to normal in a year. Also in many terms things are better and the Iraqi poll numbers show they believe this as well.
oh no?