Accused American testifies

[xnotedgex]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040514/ap_on_re_us/prisoner_abuse_sivits_5

Is anyone else skeptical about this? He saves his ass and the military's ass and fries the other guys accused, even though every other guy says the conduct was ordered.

Did a cow just have bowel movement?

[open mind]

it wouldn't be the first time someone got a sweetheart deal in exchange for what the prosecution wants to hear.

[Alex Djaferis]

it does seem a bit odd at times.

sivits was told not to report the abuse? by who? cuz that would mean that they did know...right? (im reading this real real tired.lol)

[hXc_pwnage]

I feel they should all have the same punishment. Anyone who witnissed it should be punished. They had the chance to stop it, and they didn't. The guy is also trying to put more blame on others, even though he was there WATCHING and even LAUGHING.

This is totally fucked up.

[sweetsugar]

I feel they should all have the same punishment. Anyone who witnissed it should be punished. They had the chance to stop it, and they didn't. The guy is also trying to put more blame on others, even though he was there WATCHING and even LAUGHING.

This is totally fucked up.
Warped.........views...........must .........be........ended...........

[open mind]

well he should definatley get some punishment he was an accessory to the crimes at the least, and maybe he was actively involved in the abuse but is getting a cooshy deal in exchange for favorable testimony.

[hXc_pwnage]

Warped.........views...........must .........be........ended...........
.....?

[xnotedgex]

.....?

he's a radiation expert in the military..he knows what he's talkin about man... :headshake

[cal1082]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=US&cat=US_Armed_Forces

Said in this article he recieved the maximum sentence.

[xnotedgex]

on a side note, apparently 75 prison abuse cases have been reported since the start of the war in afghanistan...how could this be when the 7 accused were just "rogue" soldiers?

[cal1082]

on a side note, apparently 75 prison abuse cases have been reported since the start of the war in afghanistan...how could this be when the 7 accused were just "rogue" soldiers?

Does reported mean accusations?

I think if you use the reasoning in the beginning that Sivits was saving his own ass by turning in others for less punishment, you should also look at the other side of the coin that Sivits was telling the truth and others were trying to get less of a prison sentence by blaming there actions on orders.

[yeat182]

who filed the report? was it amnesty international or the red cross? because they have a pretty strict defenition of abuse, technically speaking our own civillian prisons are guilty under their guidlines.

[open mind]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=US&cat=US_Armed_Forces

Said in this article he recieved the maximum sentence.
the maxixmum for what he was charged with, for some reason although he was there and took part in the abuse, he was not charged with the same crimes as the rest of the people in trouble for the abuse. coincidentally he's the only one not saying it was ordered.

[open mind]

who filed the report? was it amnesty international or the red cross? because they have a pretty strict defenition of abuse, technically speaking our own civillian prisons are guilty under their guidlines.
we are willing to treat iraqi's better then our own prisoners though,people spend years in solitary on u.s. soil, 30 days is the max for people in those prisons, one of the guards at the correctional facility i had the pleasure to stay in, beat a man confined to a wheelchair to death, instead of losing his job and going to jail they moved him to another facility.

[yeat182]

the maxixmum for what he was charged with, for some reason although he was there and took part in the abuse, he was not charged with the same crimes as the rest of the people in trouble for the abuse. coincidentally he's the only one not saying it was ordered.

because he was there it doesn't make him nessisarily equally responsible for what happened. this is the military, not the civillian world, and there are different rules. you are allowed to disobey an unlawful order, but you can't always tell a superior officer to stop what he/she is doing. there is still a chain of command. just witnessing something like this doesn't make you responsible for it.

also, i have less of a problem with this whole thing if it turns out that there were in fact orders given, becasue that means there was a purpose to this, and that the information these people had was important. if it was just a bunch of stupid soldiers trying to have a good time, then that is absolutely wrong, but if this was a method for extracting vital information i don't think its that bad at all.

[yeat182]

we are willing to treat iraqi's better then our own prisoners though,people spend years in solitary on u.s. soil, 30 days is the max for people in those prisons, one of the guards at the correctional facility i had the pleasure to stay in, beat a man confined to a wheelchair to death, instead of losing his job and going to jail they moved him to another facility.

then that should give you a better persepective that the way these Iraqi's were treated, wasn't really as bad as it was made out to be.

[open mind]

because he was there it doesn't make him nessisarily equally responsible for what happened. this is the military, not the civillian world, and there are different rules. you are allowed to disobey an unlawful order, but you can't always tell a superior officer to stop what he/she is doing. there is still a chain of command. just witnessing something like this doesn't make you responsible for it.

also, i have less of a problem with this whole thing if it turns out that there were in fact orders given, becasue that means there was a purpose to this, and that the information these people had was important. if it was just a bunch of stupid soldiers trying to have a good time, then that is absolutely wrong, but if this was a method for extracting vital information i don't think its that bad at all.
he's convicted of abuses, he was there and didn't report anything which makes him a accessory or an accomplice to the other abuses, he was far from not taking a part in the abuse because he plead guilty on abuse charges, and there are photos of the guy laughing when others were doing the same sort of things.
if it was ordered then people higher up should lose their jobs and go to jail also, although not the same in terms of magnitude, just for comparison i'll use the nazis to illustrate my reasoning, just because hitler and company didn't auctually the kill the jews with their own hands they are just as responsible, and the people who auctually did it were not given a pass because they were just taking orders.

[open mind]

then that should give you a better persepective that the way these Iraqi's were treated, wasn't really as bad as it was made out to be.
no that should give you a better perspective that the way america handles prisoners is fucked through and through, just because we do it to our own doesn't excuse it, i'd say we should clean up our own prisons just as much as we're doing in iraq.

[yeat182]

he's convicted of abuses, he was there and didn't report anything which makes him a accessory or an accomplice to the other abuses, he was far from not taking a part in the abuse because he plead guilty on abuse charges, and there are photos of the guy laughing when others were doing the same sort of things.
if it was ordered then people higher up should lose their jobs and go to jail also, although the same in terms of magnitude, just for comparison i'll use the nazis to illustrate my reasoning, just because hitler and company didn't auctually the kill the jews with their own hands they are just as responsible, and the people who auctually did it were not given a pass because they were just taking orders.

if they were ordered to do it, then there would be no need for him to report it.

and while i agree those that give the orders should be held accountable, in this case i don't think that should be the case because, IF this was a method of interrogation (and assumeing that this is as bad as it gets, no rape or murder or anything like that) then i think they were doing their jobs and i don't think they should be held criminally responsible. in nazi germany people were being killed, murdered, slaughtered, what have you, this is a series of photos of Iraqis in humilating and frighting situations. (i know you weren't equating the two situations, but i think that in the case of mass murder and genocide everyone involved should be held responsible, in this case, i think it is diffrent and should be viewed differently).

again, if this is just a bunch of sick fucks trying to have a good time, then throw them all in jail and throw away the key.

[yeat182]

no that should give you a better perspective that the way america handles prisoners is fucked through and through, just because we do it to our own doesn't excuse it, i'd say we should clean up our own prisons just as much as we're doing in iraq.

i would agree with that. but we shouldn't blow this out of proportion, when in fact it isn't even as bad as what goes on in our own prisons.

[open mind]

i would agree with that. but we shouldn't blow this out of proportion, when in fact it isn't even as bad as what goes on in our own prisons.
so bush was lying when he said this is not how we treat our prisoners wasn't he?

[open mind]

if they were ordered to do it, then there would be no need for him to report it.

and while i agree those that give the orders should be held accountable, in this case i don't think that should be the case because, IF this was a method of interrogation (and assumeing that this is as bad as it gets, no rape or murder or anything like that) then i think they were doing their jobs and i don't think they should be held criminally responsible. in nazi germany people were being killed, murdered, slaughtered, what have you, this is a series of photos of Iraqis in humilating and frighting situations. (i know you weren't equating the two situations, but i think that in the case of mass murder and genocide everyone involved should be held responsible, in this case, i think it is diffrent and should be viewed differently).

again, if this is just a bunch of sick fucks trying to have a good time, then throw them all in jail and throw away the key.
if these "interrogation methods" were ordered, then it points to a massive cover-up because all the higher ups have consistently said none of the abuse was ordered. which would be another reason why they should lose their jobs.

[yeat182]

so bush was lying when he said this is not how we treat our prisoners wasn't he?

I would hardly hold bush responsible for what goes on in an american prison.

[yeat182]

if these "interrogation methods" were ordered, then it points to a massive cover-up because all the higher ups have consistently said none of the abuse was ordered. which would be another reason why they should lose their jobs.

the higher ups in the MP at the prison said it wasn't ordered, but i don't believe that military intellegence has made that claim. but i really don't know one way or the other, i'm simply saying that if it was the case that this was ordered as an interrogation method, i would have less of a problem with it than if it was done independently by the soldiers themselves.

[open mind]

I would hardly hold bush responsible for what goes on in an american prison.
i wasn't (although we hold other leaders of their countries responsible for the treatment of their prisoners) i was saying if we treat our own worse then the folks in iraqi prisons, but bush said that's not how we treat prisoners he was lying.

[open mind]

the higher ups in the MP at the prison said it wasn't ordered, but i don't believe that military intellegence has made that claim. but i really don't know one way or the other, i'm simply saying that if it was the case that this was ordered as an interrogation method, i would have less of a problem with it than if it was done independently by the soldiers themselves.
if it was ordered it's no better, it just means our entire system of holding prisoners is corrupt and inhumane.

[yeat182]

if it was ordered it's no better, it just means our entire system of holding prisoners is corrupt and inhumane.

i see your point but i disagree, i feel that if it was done in an attempt to gain vital information than those techniques are justified, if it is done for no reason then it is absolutley wrong. but that is just me personally, i don't expect everyone to agree with that, i just feel that if the knowelge gained by their interrogation prevents another 9/11 or some other attack then its worth their humiliation/embarrasment/discomfort. i'm not saying we should torture or kill them though, let me be clear about that.

[UndefinedBoy]

i see your point but i disagree, i feel that if it was done in an attempt to gain vital information than those techniques are justified, if it is done for no reason then it is absolutley wrong. but that is just me personally, i don't expect everyone to agree with that, i just feel that if the knowelge gained by their interrogation prevents another 9/11 or some other attack then its worth their humiliation/embarrasment/discomfort. i'm not saying we should torture or kill them though, let me be clear about that.

Nothing is justified! What the MPs did was ILLEGAL!!!!

[open mind]

no one has even hinted at the idea that the people who've been abused in abu ghraib were terrorists that were being interrogated about attacks on american soil.
we went in big on international law, it would be hypocritical to say it doesn't matter and we're free to just ignore the geneva convention.

[venus/bacchus]

Nothing is justified! What the MPs did was ILLEGAL!!!!
Technically, I'm not sure that it is. I think the Geneva Convention only applies to organized armies that are affiliated with a country. These prisoners were nothing more than terrorists or insurgents (as far as I've heard), so the Geneva Code might not be applied. It's definitely unethical, but not illegal.

[open mind]

there are clear guidelines on treatment of enemy forces and treatment of civilians in the geneva convention.
how do you know what they were being held for?

[venus/bacchus]

there are clear guidelines on treatment of enemy forces and treatment of civilians in the geneva convention.
how do you know what they were being held for?
I don't. But seeing as how the Iraqi military has been disbanded for some time now, and these are all semi-independent militias, it's hard to govern them by the same standards. And I don't think they could be considered civilians either. It's an awkward grey area.

[open mind]

okay here's the laws the geneva convention has in effect that cover the treatment of prisoners you will see there is no gray area when it comes to treatment of militias.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/geneva03.htm

[open mind]

if you want to save yourself some time read articles 4,13,14,17,and 89.

[venus/bacchus]

if you want to save yourself some time read articles 4,13,14,17,and 89.
thanks...that's the first time I've ever actually read the Geneva Code. I never knew it was so strict (I had an idea though). Basically, you can't do anything to your prisoners that would be construed as mental or physical torture. I have no problem with this, but it seems like almost everything could be considered illegal except for feeding and clothing the prisoners. But we chose to follow this, so we're stuck with it.

I fully support the Geneva Code, but at the same time, I want my country to be able to get as much information as possible when needed, without going far beyond normal means. Mental torture or mindgames would be completely ok with me.

[xnotedgex]

replying to the question about the 75 reported cases of abuse...i believe these are cases that have either been investigated or are under investigation, i don't recall...it was from a yahoo article so shouldn't be hard to find

as to whether these abuses are illegal or not, keep in mind that the geneva convention isn't the only law applicable here...Time listed all of the charters and such that were violated...I'll look it up when I get home and post more then

as to the stance of the administration...I know Bush initially said these were isolated incidents but that probably has to do with his lack of knowledge on the subject (sad that the president of the country had to learn about the pictures on tv isnt it)