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View Full Version : More obligated to defend foreign nations then our own borders...


Justin_stacy
05/20/04, 12:33 PM
As it stands America, do to treaties signed more then fifty years ago, sees any attack on these nation as an attack on America its self and that their security is vital to American security....

Canada, Iceland, England, France, Holland, Luxembourg, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Norway, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Turkey, Greece, Poland, Hungry, Czech Republic, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Slovenia, Ukraine, Israel, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Bahrain, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, Thailand, Pakistan, Australia, Argentina, Bahamas, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Trinidad and Tobago, Uruguay, Venezuela, Greenland (Denmark)..Even Antarctica, yes America, in all its intelligence is under treaty to protect Antarctica from foreign invaders!

My question is, Is the security of all these nations truly vital to American security? I mean yes an attack on London or Tokyo or Ottawa would probably be seen as a vital interest to America, but what about an attack on Warsaw or Riga or Vilnius or Prague? Are these nations really vital to America? Are they worth American deaths? Should we really be offering these countries total security, when they return nothing to us? Is this American money well spent?

Here are a few points of interest:

1) In the years leading up to the reunification of Germany and the "Liberation" of Eastern Europe, Russia was promised by the west and NATO, that NATO would not attempt to "expand" east.....But yet less then 10 years later Poland, Hungry, Czech Republic, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, and Slovenia are all now part of NATO, a direct contradiction of the 1991, closed door, agreement...

The question here is, What will happen when Russia regains her former power, which it will, and feels alienated or betrayed or threatened by these actions of Clinton and NATO? Will they attack these Baltic and land locked nations? If so America and NATO will have to respond, and inturn draw war on themselves from a Nuclear power......and for what I ask? What does Romania or Latvia offer America?

2) Before Germany was allowed back into "western society" and NATO it was cleansed of all Nazis officials and "substance".....But yet these former "Warsaw Pact" nations were never cleansed of their communist officials, nor were they driven from government, or the party its self "out lawed".....This mean America could be driven into war to defend a country controlled by those that once sided with Moscow and could possible still doing "business" with them...

3) Kalinsgrad, a Russian "Island," in central Europe, houses more Russian troops then that of the whole American army stationed in Europe. This means there is more Russian soldier within the boundaries of NATO, then there are Americans.

The question here is what will happen when Moscow demands a ground route, through Lithuania, to this 'island"? Will America or NATO stop this, is Lithuania's land "worth" American lives?

4) There are more retired Red Army soldiers and KGB officials living in Lithuania and Latvia, then their are actual soldiers....This means, in a war, America will be forced to "defend" the lives of long time enemy, and those that harbor more ties to Moscow, then to Washington.

5) In 1951 we signed a treaty with Philippines to "mutual security"....but in the 80's Manila expelled American soldiers from the Clark Airforce Base and the Subic Bay Naval Base...suggesting that Manila had chosen to renege of the agreement.....But in 1998, as China moved closer to setting up bases in the Spartly island chain, Manila's suggested that the treaty might be "invoked," "We don't think there will be a shooting war," said the Philippine Defense Minister, but, "as far as we see it, the mutual defense treaty may sill prove of value to us." This means America may be forced to defend a country that doesn't want our presence and wouldn't return the favor......

6) The Germany Chancellor ran on a ticket of "anti-American"...but yet found it insulting to Germany, when America announced that it might move bases out of Germany and into Poland....How can this be, we move base slightly to the east and its insulting, but a Chancellor running and winning based only on his promise of being anti-American not insulting?

The Question here is, why should we be obligated to defend nations that take us for granted and, nationally, treat us like shit?


7) America spends more on the Defense of South Korea, then the South Koreans do.

8 ) American military is to be cut from 2,070,000 to 1,453,000 soldiers....and is given only 3% of the GDP.....and all this is used, not to defend American soil, but to defend 58 different country most of which, like France, Japan, Korea, Latin America and the Baltic Nations...depend almost entirely on America for their defense and security.

The Question here is, Why should we defend these nations, with insufficient funds and man power, when we as a nations can't defend out own country along the Canadian and Mexican borders, Where we have a more direct worry for "national security"....?


I guess the point I’m trying to make, is that thanks to the treaties signed by past, and current, officials, future generations will be dragged into wars on land that has no relevency to America, and is in no way vital to American security.

It is time, especially since the Iraq war, that America tell our government that its time to allow other nations to pick their own destiny. America can not continue to defend and occupy nations that; use us, betray us, deny us access to their land, and who intently breed hatred for us. Yes, American can not isolate ourselves completely from the outside world but we should not be a "guardian angel" for nations that take us for granted......France, Germany and the EU have the money to defend themselves, Why don't they? The Baltic Nations know the Enemy they face, to the east, and should prepare for it on their own, Shouldn't they? Japan has one of the wealthiest economies in the world and the technology to develop their own Nuclear weapons, Shouldn't they be expected to defend themselves and spend more then 1% of their GDP on it? Mexico, Pakistan, France, Panama, Venezuela, Oman and The Philippines are no friend(s) of America, Should we real be under obligation to defend them? Korea has had 50 plus years to create and fund an army big enough to defend against North Korea, Isn't time we left it up to them?

open mind
05/20/04, 06:45 PM
you really think we get nothing in return for securing the world? i don't think it should our job either, but it's not like being in charge of the security of the world doesn't have it's benefits.

Justin_stacy
05/20/04, 11:06 PM
you really think we get nothing in return for securing the world? i don't think it should our job either, but it's not like being in charge of the security of the world doesn't have it's benefits.
it depends on the place and the issue....Do we gain a benefit from defending Seoul? Probably yes, but should we be fronting the whole bill? No...Do we gain a benefit from protecting Warsaw? Probably not, and do we do ourselves more harm by "protecting" them? Yes...so see you have to look at each specific location individually and not make a broad statement like "you really think we get nothing in return for securing the world?" because in reality the "securing the world” statement is a myth, Russia could take back over the Baltic states in a week, china could take Taiwan in a day, Muslim fascist could take over the middle east without bloodshed and North Korea could destroy parts of Japan and South Korea before we could ever muster a response....But beyond that just looking at a what we invest monetarily and man power wise to "securing" these nations who carry known to little of the burden themselves…and then look at what they return to us, and you’ll see that we are getting very little back, in most cases, for our investment….

cal1082
05/20/04, 11:14 PM
I like these alliances. I think the sovereign entity that's the most powerful in the world should take on bigger responsibilities for protection. It helps secure there well being and your power.

Justin_stacy
05/20/04, 11:27 PM
I like these alliances. I think the sovereign entity that's the most powerful in the world should take on bigger responsibilities for protection. It helps secure there well being and your power.

but someone like open mind or sinister will say that the reason we are hated so much is because of our military presence around the world....which in fact might make the world a less secure place, wouldn't it?.....

and again I hate to bring this argument up but are you truly willing to fight for these "alliances"....do you really care to die for a promise Clinton made or Johnson made?....these alliances are going to bring us into wars that are not ours to fight, and because most of these countries have pushed the responsibility over to us we will carry most of the burden both man wise and financially...

cal1082
05/20/04, 11:32 PM
but someone like open mind or sinister will say that the reason we are hated so much is because of our military presence around the world....which in fact might make the world a less secure place, wouldn't it?.....

and again I hate to bring this argument up but are you truly willing to fight for these "alliances"....do you really care to die for a promise Clinton made or Johnson made?....these alliances are going to bring us into wars that are not ours to fight, and because most of these countries have pushed the responsibility over to us we will carry most of the burden both man wise and financially...

Well unless there are other stipulations this is why we would have to fight. We fight if "any attack on these nation as an attack on America its self and that their security is vital to American security.... ". I don't have all my books with me cause i'm at my parents, but if i'm not mistaken this type of alliance does not include if these countries attack first. It's kinda like an Iraq/Kuwait scenario. I took a class over alliances and I know it's in my book but I dont have access until Saturday to it and I dont remember off the top of my head.

Justin_stacy
05/20/04, 11:57 PM
Well unless there are other stipulations this is why we would have to fight. We fight if "any attack on these nation as an attack on America its self and that their security is vital to American security.... ". I don't have all my books with me cause i'm at my parents, but if i'm not mistaken this type of alliance does not include if these countries attack first.

that is a good point....but say Russia one day decides that she wants to do as Hitler in Austria, and annex Lithuania or Latvia, both of which have large and voiceful Russian populations....We would have to fight here because these two countries are both part of NATO...(of course by "we" I mean NATO (which of course by "NATO" I mean the USA)), and for what? To defend a country from what, in parts, more then half its population might want? On top of that, if we step in whose to say Russia won't declare war on us? and they have more troops, in Europe, then us and are a nuclear power, which means American civilization is on the brink of extinction because of an alliance we have with one, unimportant country, that most of America told Clinton not to allow to join NATO...

open mind
05/21/04, 12:00 AM
but someone like open mind or sinister will say that the reason we are hated so much is because of our military presence around the world....which in fact might make the world a less secure place, wouldn't it?.....

and again I hate to bring this argument up but are you truly willing to fight for these "alliances"....do you really care to die for a promise Clinton made or Johnson made?....these alliances are going to bring us into wars that are not ours to fight, and because most of these countries have pushed the responsibility over to us we will carry most of the burden both man wise and financially...
it's only the middle east that's a big problem when it comes to our presence, every other place is much more accepting of us, it's our policies in the middle east that most of the world has the big problem with.
i don't support us being all over the globe but i can see the logic in wanting to keep things stable, we're the wealthiest country in the world, keeping things stable helps ensure that it stays that way.

Justin_stacy
05/21/04, 12:30 AM
it's only the middle east that's a big problem when it comes to our presence, every other place is much more accepting of us, it's our policies in the middle east that most of the world has the big problem with..
the middle east is the most unstable place in the world, so inturn if were not their, militarily , it really defeats the majority of your goal doesn't it?

and most places are un-accepting of "Americans" and far more hostile to us then we are to them (but that is another issue) and they are only accepting of our military because, it avoids them having to pay for one on their own ($$), and because it brings economic power to location which would otherwise be depressed ($$)......see we don't only defend them but we also in a way prop up economies.....and all this for "one" country that elected a "president" solely because he ran on an anti-American platform...

i don't support us being all over the globe .
so you agree that we need to place "troops" and sign "alliances" based on how "vital" they are?

we're the wealthiest country in the world, keeping things stable helps ensure that it stays that way.

first, taking on the duty of stabilizing the world, alone, actually destables us....it hurts the economy, ties up resources and money, diverts attention, and breeds resentment...

on top of that the money we spend "stablizing" is spent, mostly, on two of the richest areas of the world europe and the north eastern pacific rim....

open mind
05/21/04, 01:22 AM
it's not my goal, remember i said i don't support policing the globe.
we prop up countries because their governments are pro-america, i don't agree with the tactics, but i see how it works in our favor.
how does my saying i don't think we should have troops all over the globe translate into me saying we need to place troops and make alliances based on how important they are?
it's all about keeping other countries where we want them so we can do what we want, it's a fucked up way of running things for sure, and i'm against it, but i can't argue that it works (at least until theres a big enough backlash which we're seeing now)

Justin_stacy
05/21/04, 09:36 AM
how does my saying i don't think we should have troops all over the globe translate into me saying we need to place troops and make alliances based on how important they are?

if you don't want troops all over the globe then shouldn't they be place where they serve a purpose, as opposed to a little here a little there, doesn't that make more sense?

open mind
05/21/04, 03:34 PM
being all over the globe does serve a purpose, the main one usually being the protection of an american companies investments which i'm not big on.

yeat182
05/21/04, 09:51 PM
while i don't really think we need all these alliances, i don't feel that they 'hurt' america. they were made more as a deterrent to other nations(i.e. if you mess with them you mess with us) and that in and of itself is pretty good protection. most of those countries don't have US soldiers or military in them at all, they are simply part of a larger group of nations. if any one was attacked, we would obviously respond, but so would the other nations in the alliance (obviously the US and UK would bear the brunt of the cost, but still...). I see your point in saying what do we care about Latvia or some other tiny country in the middle of nowhere that no one cares about, but i don't think those particular countries cost the US much more than our pledge to defend them, and that alone deters anyone else from trying to take them over.

Justin_stacy
05/21/04, 09:58 PM
(obviously the US and UK would bear the brunt of the cost, but still...).

thats the point i'm trying to make, US citizens are forced to pay the brunt of defending and "protecting" these nations, when 1. we can't defend or protect ourselves becasue we're so spread out, 2. most of these nations are the "richest" in the world and should be covering the "burden" themselves, instead of passing the money "we" save them off to their people or social programs....

open mind
05/21/04, 10:05 PM
and we get to do what we want and make big bucks, it's more corporate welfare, something our government is big on.

yeat182
05/22/04, 09:00 AM
thats the point i'm trying to make, US citizens are forced to pay the brunt of defending and "protecting" these nations, when 1. we can't defend or protect ourselves becasue we're so spread out, 2. most of these nations are the "richest" in the world and should be covering the "burden" themselves, instead of passing the money "we" save them off to their people or social programs....

thats true, but we don't really have to spend any money because the threat of US involvement keeps anything from happening. but i agree that this is a bit antiquated after the fall of the USSR.