Free Trade

[open mind]

what do you guys think of the free trade agreements?
i don't think we should make any more agreements unless they come with regulations and standards that ensure good labor practices in the countries jobs would go to as a result of new agreements.
without proper standards everyone but the corporations and their stockholders lose, americans lose jobs and wages go down, the countries that the jobs go to don't profit and their people are taken advantage of, and the enviorment gets screwed even more.

[ohlookitspaul]

ehhh i agree with pretty much what you said

[yeat182]

government doesn't control those companies though, they are free to do what is legal to make money, and their only responsibility is to their stockholders. if they can find cheaper labor elsewhere then they will and should be able to. it is really up to the other countries to get their act together and pass better workers rights laws, but i suppose america could pressure them to do so a little more.

[open mind]

government does control what's signed into law, so they can control labor laws by refusing to sign agreements that they know will result in loss of jobs and lower wages for americans, and people in other countries being taken advantage of.
that is a way of controlling companies.

[yeat182]

government does control what's signed into law, so they can control labor laws by refusing to sign agreements that they know will result in loss of jobs and lower wages for americans, and people in other countries being taken advantage of.
that is a way of controlling companies.

except that the government doesn't control companies, so there is no reason for them to create laws allowing them to do so, it is not their responsibility to control private businesses.

[open mind]

it's the governments job to keep the economy in good condition and insure jobs (i know you don't think so but it is).something that can be controlled through good free trade agreements.it is the governments job to regulate buisness ever heard of anti-monopoly laws, anti-piracy laws, safety tests on various products,the fcc, and a host of other laws and regulatory organizations?

[ohlookitspaul]

it is really up to the other countries to get their act together and pass better workers rights laws

the thing is, though, some of these corporations have so much political and economic power in these other countries that they couldn't possibly do such a thing. i remember reading that wal-mart was the #1 driving economic force in a couple of 3rd world countries, though i can't remember which ones.

[yeat182]

it's the governments job to keep the economy in good condition and insure jobs (i know you don't think so but it is).

actually, it isn't. i know you think it should be, but it's not.

something that can be controlled through good free trade agreements.it is the governments job to regulate buisness ever heard of anti-monopoly laws, anti-piracy laws, safety tests on various products,the fcc, and a host of other laws and regulatory organizations?

and all of those push the limits of how involved government should be in private business, and you want them to create laws the give them more power over it?

[Sinister Rouge]

Fair trade before free trade.....exploitation of people and environment in the Third World for lower costs is not truly free and it is wrong.

[open mind]

actually, it isn't. i know you think it should be, but it's not.



and all of those push the limits of how involved government should be in private business, and you want them to create laws the give them more power over it?

do we have to go over why the economy and jobs are part of the governments job again? (we've talked it over before numerous times)
i don't like the fcc to much i'll admit, but the rest of those laws and regulatory organizations protect society they do the minimum of what it takes to keep big buisness in check.it's coming to the point (or maybe we're well past the point) where corporations are more powerful then any country, and buy what and who they want in order to fuck over the world.
the global economy is/was touted as the thing that would bring prosperity to the world, all it's brought is loss of jobs,lower wages, and people all over the globe being taken advantage of, somethings got to change before we open ourselves up to any further damage.

[yeat182]

do we have to go over why the economy and jobs are part of the governments job again? (we've talked it over before numerous times)
i don't like the fcc to much i'll admit, but the rest of those laws and regulatory organizations protect society they do the minimum of what it takes to keep big buisness in check.it's coming to the point (or maybe we're well past the point) where corporations are more powerful then any country, and buy what and who they want in order to fuck over the world.
the global economy is/was touted as the thing that would bring prosperity to the world, all it's brought is loss of jobs,lower wages, and people all over the globe being taken advantage of, somethings got to change before we open ourselves up to any further damage.


yes, all corporations are evil and out to destroy the world. [/sarcasm]

it hasn't brought the loss of jobs, in fact it has created millions more jobs world wide, all it did was balance those jobs out across many countries, rather than having them all located in a few major countries. and these lower wages that are being paid in other countries are low compared to our standards, but to the people working them they are normal. if you want these third world countries to improve their working conditons, then
they have to do something about it, it is not the responsibility of the US government. i know you'd like to add it to your list of things this country does wrong, but sadly, it is not the job of our government.

[sweetsugar]

I believe Free trade is what has led to our current unemployment rates. With factories moving to other countries for cheaper labor, that leaves us with less jobs.

[xnotedgex]

yes, all corporations are evil and out to destroy the world. [/sarcasm]

it hasn't brought the loss of jobs, in fact it has created millions more jobs world wide, all it did was balance those jobs out across many countries, rather than having them all located in a few major countries. and these lower wages that are being paid in other countries are low compared to our standards, but to the people working them they are normal. if you want these third world countries to improve their working conditons, then
they have to do something about it, it is not the responsibility of the US government. i know you'd like to add it to your list of things this country does wrong, but sadly, it is not the job of our government.

it has brought a loss of jobs when you're looking at the united states...the US government's responisibility isnt to make sure other countries have good emplyoment rates...its to make sure every american has access to a comfortable life...clearly free trade laws offer a slight barrier to that but i don't think too much blame should be placed there

[sweetsugar]

All I'm saying is.....America is a nation of consumers. To be consumed things have to be produced. It was all good when we were producing stuff and buying it, cuz the money kind of recirculates. My fear is that one day our days of a producer will be ended. Without producing a product to sell we make no profit, therefore we can't buy anything. Without something to produce what kinda jobs are we gonna have. Sure there are some things, but, not enough to keep us all employed. My concern isn't the present. It's 50 years down the road. The only thing that is going to bring out country down is ourselves. I fear that the American Infrastructure is slowly weakening and crumbling.

[yeat182]

it has brought a loss of jobs when you're looking at the united states...the US government's responisibility isnt to make sure other countries have good emplyoment rates...its to make sure every american has access to a comfortable life...clearly free trade laws offer a slight barrier to that but i don't think too much blame should be placed there


where, on the government?

also, i'm not saying i wouldn't prefer that american companies hire american workers and pay them fairly, i just don't believe that it is the governments job to force them to do so. and i can't blame the companies for looking for cheaper labor because if their competition is paying workers 25 cents and hour, then they have to as well or they will go out of business. if i'm going to place blame with anyone, it is with the foreign countries that do not have decent workers rights, because if they changed their methods, everyone would be getting paid better, americans and foreingers alike.

[open mind]

yes, all corporations are evil and out to destroy the world. [/sarcasm]

it hasn't brought the loss of jobs, in fact it has created millions more jobs world wide, all it did was balance those jobs out across many countries, rather than having them all located in a few major countries. and these lower wages that are being paid in other countries are low compared to our standards, but to the people working them they are normal. if you want these third world countries to improve their working conditons, then
they have to do something about it, it is not the responsibility of the US government. i know you'd like to add it to your list of things this country does wrong, but sadly, it is not the job of our government.
all corporations are out to make a buck for their shareholders no matter what, that doesn't neccesarily make them evil for wanting to influence government if they can but it is still pretty shady.
i meant it's brought a loss of american jobs, look at our wages compared to corporate profit increases,the jobs gained in other countries through free trade have not helped those countries out of poverty,free trade was supposed to spread wealth around the globe not just jobs.children working for pennies an hour in dangerous work enviorments may be normal in any given country, but does that make it right?
the united states is the worlds superpower and doesn't need to sign any agreements until they ensure decent wages and working enviorments around the world,you could be thick headed and fail to realize it's not only the fault of those other countries, but it's ours to,we're the most powerful country in the world, we can make sure just agreements are put in place if we choose , i'm not about forcing companies to hire only americans,i'm about helping the world and at the same time helping ourselves.
there is more evidence then not that some of governments jobs are to regulate buisness, nurture the economy, and get people jobs, through programs it funds or runs, and various laws and governing boards.

[xnotedgex]

where, on the government?

also, i'm not saying i wouldn't prefer that american companies hire american workers and pay them fairly, i just don't believe that it is the governments job to force them to do so. and i can't blame the companies for looking for cheaper labor because if their competition is paying workers 25 cents and hour, then they have to as well or they will go out of business. if i'm going to place blame with anyone, it is with the foreign countries that do not have decent workers rights, because if they changed their methods, everyone would be getting paid better, americans and foreingers alike.

on free trade laws...i still think that if you want a job bad enough you can find one...it will probably just take a sacrifice on your part

[Sinister Rouge]

There is a new, downright ugly new trade agreement that Bush is trying to push, Central America Free Trade Agreement...or CAFTA. It is a nice fair free trade agreement (sarcasm), the corporations abuse Central American labor, the people in Central America are too fucking poor to buy any of our products, we Americans get our jobs outsourced, the corporate pigs get rich and oink wildly. Central American countries doesn't have the resources to enforce good labor standards.

Once again, Bush is pandering to the big corporations and the common people lose. This trade agreement is worse than NAFTA (one of Clinton's big mistakes).

[sweetsugar]

There is a new, downright ugly new trade agreement that Bush is trying to push, Central America Free Trade Agreement...or CAFTA. It is a nice fair free trade agreement (sarcasm), the corporations abuse Central American labor, the people in Central America are too fucking poor to buy any of our products, we Americans get our jobs outsourced, the corporate pigs get rich and oink wildly. Central American countries doesn't have the resources to enforce good labor standards.

Once again, Bush is pandering to the big corporations and the common people lose. This trade agreement is worse than NAFTA (one of Clinton's big mistakes).
This country is going to shit really fast. It's making me depressed to think about my future and my childrens future.

[UndefinedBoy]

This country is going to shit really fast. It's making me depressed to think about my future and my childrens future.

Who do you blame for that? I'm not referring to anyone specifically or just asking you...but I'm curious what everyone thinks. A good amount of us on here can agree things are going downhill pretty quickly, and who's fault is it? Hopefully it's not just evolution...

[yeat182]

Who do you blame for that? I'm not referring to anyone specifically or just asking you...but I'm curious what everyone thinks. A good amount of us on here can agree things are going downhill pretty quickly, and who's fault is it? Hopefully it's not just evolution...


i think it is a perception that the world is shitty, due largely to the media, because bad news sells newspapers. good news isn't considered "news". everywhere you look you are bombarded with bad news, so it skews your perception of the world.

[UndefinedBoy]

i think it is a perception that the world is shitty, due largely to the media, because bad news sells newspapers. good news isn't considered "news". everywhere you look you are bombarded with bad news, so it skews your perception of the world.

That's definitely true, but I still think that currently, the bad is outwaying the good. There will always be good things happening, but right now a lot thats going on is definitely bad.

[xnotedgex]

i think it is a perception that the world is shitty, due largely to the media, because bad news sells newspapers. good news isn't considered "news". everywhere you look you are bombarded with bad news, so it skews your perception of the world.

I agree with that but I don't think that you can argue that society as a whole lacks values that were prominent just decades ago...primarily respect. I think this depletion of values is the cause of society's downslide

[open mind]

loss of values and traditions, increased corporate power, and a general disconnect between people are some of the factors that contribute to western societies ills, still there's a whole host of things that have contributed to all the shit.