Christian Hardcore.

[j_mason21]

Is the somewhat recent influx of Christian hardcore helping or hurting the religion?

As a non-Christian, who extremely enjoys Christian hardcore, but doesn't really feel swayed by it, I always wonder if it's helping the religion at all. What do you think?

[Machu505]

That's an oxymoron if I've ever seen one.

Neither.

[TwilightEpidemi]

i dont think the music u listen to can shape ones beliefs. if are not a christian and listen to christian music, i doubt it will sway your beliefs in any way. same with christians who listen to christian music, if any thing it will strengthen their beliefs.

[WTHMTH]

i think it can influence some people... obviously everyone is different so some people are not swayed by it

[loganmmm]

I dont think hardcore is influencing any non-Christians to the point of conversion. I also dont think the "Christian" label at the beginning of the word "Hardcore" is helping or hurting the belief.

Although, I do think some Christians can relate to "Christian Hardcore" on a deeper level, depending on the mood and lyrics of the music.

[Zach Cool]

Much like straight edge being trendy, I believe Christianity is trendy as well, and I think that there are some people who are ignorant enough to become a Christian (if they aren't already, that is) just because their favorite band preaches about it.

[adam289]

Neither.

[ForeverDelayed]

I consider myself a Christian, but my beliefs have changed a lot in recent years. When I was in school I was your typical fundamentalist brat, and I listened to mostly Christian music. Now I've really moved to the outside fringes of Christianity, and a lot of my old friends don't even consider me a Christian anymore, or they think I've "backslidden" and need to "come back to Jesus." But it's like, the more disenfranchised I've become with modern mainstream American consumer Christianity, the less and less I've been able to tolerate Christian music, especially when it's preachy. So I guess what I'm saying is I think Christian music of any kind hurts the religion, because it only accepts a very narrow definition of what Christianity is. When Christian bands cuss or drink or get a divorce they are shunned by the Christian music industry. If a band isn't straightforward in their lyrics people question if they really have faith or not. If a scene kid listens to more non-Christian bands than Christian bands people worry about him. The whole culture of separating the Christian from the non-Christian creates this narrow worldview which looks down on others who don't share your beliefs and separates and shelters you from the world at large. This is most definitely not the message of Christ himself, and any band or music industry that comes along preaching this message does a lot to discredit and damage Christianity.

[jjjkman]

I consider myself a Christian, but my beliefs have changed a lot in recent years. When I was in school I was your typical fundamentalist brat, and I listened to mostly Christian music. Now I've really moved to the outside fringes of Christianity, and a lot of my old friends don't even consider me a Christian anymore, or they think I've "backslidden" and need to "come back to Jesus." But it's like, the more disenfranchised I've become with modern mainstream American consumer Christianity, the less and less I've been able to tolerate Christian music, especially when it's preachy. So I guess what I'm saying is I think Christian music of any kind hurts the religion, because it only accepts a very narrow definition of what Christianity is. When Christian bands cuss or drink or get a divorce they are shunned by the Christian music industry. If a band isn't straightforward in their lyrics people question if they really have faith or not. If a scene kid listens to more non-Christian bands than Christian bands people worry about him. The whole culture of separating the Christian from the non-Christian creates this narrow worldview which looks down on others who don't share your beliefs and separates and shelters you from the world at large. This is most definitely not the message of Christ himself, and any band or music industry that comes along preaching this message does a lot to discredit and damage Christianity.
i agree with this!

[brokenwings]

Much like straight edge being trendy, I believe Christianity is trendy as well, and I think that there are some people who are ignorant enough to become a Christian (if they aren't already, that is) just because their favorite band preaches about it.

neither christianity nor straight edge can be called a trend...

anyway, if a band is christian to a degree that there is no other way to interpret their lyrics and the band says something like "we are doing this to spread the word about jesus" or whatever, then i personally will not be able to listen to their music because i can't relate to the lyrics or the band at all.
and i'm sure other non-christians will do the same... it's funny how extremely christian bands think that they are "spreading the word" (sorry, don't no a better way to put it right now), while they are actually just appealing to people who are already christians. this kind of music will in many cases also be just marketed towards christians and most non-christians will never even get to know about the band anyway. from an artistic point of view, i really can't find sympathy or understanding for those kind of bands. why would you want to make music that just appeals to a certain group of people...
but then again many christians like to be just among themselves, which again doesn't "help" the religion.

[brokenwings]

I consider myself a Christian, but my beliefs have changed a lot in recent years. When I was in school I was your typical fundamentalist brat, and I listened to mostly Christian music. Now I've really moved to the outside fringes of Christianity, and a lot of my old friends don't even consider me a Christian anymore, or they think I've "backslidden" and need to "come back to Jesus." But it's like, the more disenfranchised I've become with modern mainstream American consumer Christianity, the less and less I've been able to tolerate Christian music, especially when it's preachy. So I guess what I'm saying is I think Christian music of any kind hurts the religion, because it only accepts a very narrow definition of what Christianity is. When Christian bands cuss or drink or get a divorce they are shunned by the Christian music industry. If a band isn't straightforward in their lyrics people question if they really have faith or not. If a scene kid listens to more non-Christian bands than Christian bands people worry about him. The whole culture of separating the Christian from the non-Christian creates this narrow worldview which looks down on others who don't share your beliefs and separates and shelters you from the world at large. This is most definitely not the message of Christ himself, and any band or music industry that comes along preaching this message does a lot to discredit and damage Christianity.
pretty much nails it! i'm not christian anymore, but when i still was, i was in a similar situation to what you are in right now.

[AlkalineAvA]

Much like straight edge being trendy, I believe Christianity is trendy as well, and I think that there are some people who are ignorant enough to become a Christian (if they aren't already, that is) just because their favorite band preaches about it.

neither are trendy, i dont meet to many people that are that way. even if im at like a christian harcore concert.

but anyway, my thoughts on this are that it can help. i say this because sometimes kids at the show might hear something that really gets to them like something they needed to hear.

[offtheropes]

neither christianity nor straight edge can be called a trend...



not true. anything can become a trend, as long as there is some need for said subject and if it's marketed correctly.

on a separate note, to say that music doesn't have an affect on people isn't true. lyrics eventually are memorized, causing the listener to agree or disagree with the lyrics, but at that point, the listener has already thought about them. two examples of this in my life are circa survive and underoath.
with circa, their last album's lyrics totally had me thinking about the possibility of the afterlife. however, i was already in a point in my life where i was questioning those things, it only exacerbated that pov.
with underoath, that song "some will seek forgiveness, others escape" was completely relevant in another part of my life. two completely different stances, but both aided in what i was already thinking.

[crookhawk]

i think it hurts the religion but then again fuck christianity it took over peoples lives by force when the world was weak and stupid and now tries to maintain its stranglehold on what we should consider morally right

[crookhawk]

I consider myself a Christian, but my beliefs have changed a lot in recent years. When I was in school I was your typical fundamentalist brat, and I listened to mostly Christian music. Now I've really moved to the outside fringes of Christianity, and a lot of my old friends don't even consider me a Christian anymore, or they think I've "backslidden" and need to "come back to Jesus." But it's like, the more disenfranchised I've become with modern mainstream American consumer Christianity, the less and less I've been able to tolerate Christian music, especially when it's preachy. So I guess what I'm saying is I think Christian music of any kind hurts the religion, because it only accepts a very narrow definition of what Christianity is. When Christian bands cuss or drink or get a divorce they are shunned by the Christian music industry. If a band isn't straightforward in their lyrics people question if they really have faith or not. If a scene kid listens to more non-Christian bands than Christian bands people worry about him. The whole culture of separating the Christian from the non-Christian creates this narrow worldview which looks down on others who don't share your beliefs and separates and shelters you from the world at large. This is most definitely not the message of Christ himself, and any band or music industry that comes along preaching this message does a lot to discredit and damage Christianity.

word i was emo and straight edge once myself then one day i woke up and said fuck it im getting jeans that fitand listening to pantera. unless your straight edge a really good transition band i think is Leftover Crack and higher weed intake

[wewascontenders]

dumb

[amber3]

I really believe it depends who you are, in my life it doesnt change anything.

[crookhawk]

dumb

wuts dumb ur beleifs or me accepting people for who they r unlike ur religion of fascists

[foreverSWEET]

How is [hardcore] music going to influence your beliefs when you can' understand a thing being said (with the exception of discernible lyrics which are sang instead of growled/screamed)? Whether you're Christian or not, I don't see how something you can't make out would either help or hurt the religion. For the fans who know the band and what they stand for, meaning might be lost in translation, even, because when you go to a hardcore show, rationality flies out the window (don't quote me on that, because there are those who listen to the music instead of thrash to it). I only think it pertains to the band itself, who are doing what they do for a reason, because its their religion and they feel a closer connection to God every time they play a song proclaiming His greatness.

Those who aren't religious go to hardcore shows because they're hardcore shows. So the situation neither helps nor hurts the religion. Christian Hardcore is not going to determine a person's faith.

[wewascontenders]

wuts dumb ur beleifs or me accepting people for who they r unlike ur religion of fascists

I wasn't actually talking to you before, but now after reading what you said I can see why you would think that. So now in response to what you said, are you dumb?

[foreverSWEET]

I wasn't actually talking to you before, but now after reading what you said I can see why you would think that. So now in response to what you said, are you dumb?

I really don't believe any of this is necessary. This is all of opinion, I don't see why it needs to be turned into an argument.

[Anthony Lutz]

That's an oxymoron if I've ever seen one.

Neither.

That's kind of what I was thinking - there really isn't anything "hardcore" about being a Christian.

Neither received my vote as well.

[etheritcher]

i think it helps and hurts in different ways
i feel that sometimes they alienate the kids who dont really have strong religious beliefs
for example, i was at a concert last november and before the last song the singer took the time out for a "jesus loves you" speech. at the time i was slightly embarassed and he really got a lot of snickering and booing for it but i guess thats cool
on the other side of the spectrum, at least there are bands with faith and if youre a kid with faith its a cool thing to be able to relate and have something like that
and now im rambling

[Yes. And?]

It sucks, that's all I know. :-p

[crookhawk]

true that if u listen to HxC (hardcore is for 80's punk i wont dignify u with it) pull ur head out of ur ass

[SethGrandpa]

Neither. But I just don't get the genre.

[wewascontenders]

I really don't believe any of this is necessary. This is all of opinion, I don't see why it needs to be turned into an argument.

I was insulted at complete random. I'm not just gonna sit there and take it. And even to that after reading the guys latest post we appear to have the same opinion.

[UKBoss44]

I think a lot of people are taking this entire discussion out of context. First off, I completely disagree with the idea the that Christian Hardcore is an oxymoron. Christianity in its some of its earliest forms (John the Baptist) was a straight up hardcore movement against tyranny itself. And as far as christianity within hardcore music having to follow narrow definitions of the religion, i would strongly disagree. Some of the bigger names in the genre like Norma Jean and mewithoutYou (I know they're not "hardcore" but i think they fit in this discussion) dont conform to a narrow minded/narrow defintion of the religion at all.

Personally I believe the music is good for the religion only because it allows christians to voice their concerns/struggles/beliefs through music. Most bands out there are trying to convert anyone at all, they're simply making music that's reflective of their life...which is basically what music is about.

[missbehavin']

I think, all things considered, that the lyrics to hardcore "Christian songs" are the same as some other song that say the same thing but since your pastor listens to so does the rest of the congregation. Its the hardcore artist way of praising God, not trying to convince other people to join there religion.
I think "mainstream" Christian music as well as hardcore Christian music do there damage.

[alex.parent]

I think in many cases "Christian hardcore bands" are that because the members in the band are Christians. I play in a band, and it happens to work that way for us. Sometimes at shows our singer will mention something, but not all the time. We didn't start our band to be a Christian band, nor do we really consider our selves a Christian band, rather a band with Christians in it. My vote went for helping, because even though many people may not be influenced, some people are. As long as somebody is noticing, that's a job well done, even if more people hate it than like it.

Also, I think it's funny how people associate Christianity and religion. It's too bad that most people think Christians and, say, Catholics are the same thing, because I honestly can't stand religion; however I'd say I'm a relatively devout Christian. I think a lot of these bands are probably the same way. They're not there to try and hammer God into your head until you give up and convert. They're there for that one person every once and a while who is thinking about trying to find God and needs help.

It's too bad that so many people see Christians as such bad people, but I can definitely understand why. I have friends that aren't even allowed into churches in towns a few hours from where I live, because they have tattoos and huge guaged ears. Then I have friends who go to churches where you get laughed at if you dress up. I think if more Christians were acting more Christian, things would be very different, but if Christians aren't accepting to people, of course people are going to hate it.

But, back to the topic, I do think "Christian Hardcore" helps the Christian faith, not religion though. I wish people would stop constantly connecting the 2. The huge number of Christian bands that I listen to and have met have definitely helped get me interested and finding God in my life, and eventually I made that decision on my own. I think many people have done the same thing, and like I said before, every person finding faith is helping Christianity.

[ForeverDelayed]

Also, I think it's funny how people associate Christianity and religion. It's too bad that most people think Christians and, say, Catholics are the same thing, because I honestly can't stand religion; however I'd say I'm a relatively devout Christian.
But Christianity IS a religion. It fits every characteristic of a religion. It's just become trendy in certain circles to use religion as a bad word. The Bible which Christians by definition follow is full of examples of both good and bad religion, and it makes it clear that God wants you to practice the good religion. Read the book of James and see what he has to say, it's pretty clear that the word religion is neutral and the characteristics of a religion are what we're talking about. When you say you don't like religion and Christianity isn't about religion, what you mean is that you don't like false religion and you consider Christianity to be a true religion. Any devout Christian is, by definition, a religious person.

And if you're trying to subtly bash Catholicism with what you're saying here, just don't. The fundamentalists might want you to believe otherwise, but Catholics are every bit as Christian as anyone else, and most are good devout people who believe in the same Jesus you do.

[ForeverDelayed]

wuts dumb ur beleifs or me accepting people for who they r unlike ur religion of fascists
Evidently you're accepting of everyone except Christians, and you're insulting Christians for not being as accepting as you? Yeah, no trace of irony there.

[alex.parent]

And if you're trying to subtly bash Catholicism with what you're saying here, just don't. The fundamentalists might want you to believe otherwise, but Catholics are every bit as Christian as anyone else, and most are good devout people who believe in the same Jesus you do.

Not trying to bash anything, just using it as an example. And you make a good point with the Christianity as a religion argument, but I think people definitely see all religion as being all the same, which as you said is not true.

[crookhawk]

Evidently you're accepting of everyone except Christians, and you're insulting Christians for not being as accepting as you? Yeah, no trace of irony there.

Why should i accept them if they dont except me

[myplasticyou]

ghey!

[UKBoss44]

i think music has been discussed about twice in this thread...

[crookhawk]

i think music has been discussed about twice in this thread...

thats because the underlying issue of religion is why many people shun Christcore or HXC as isay when making fun of it

[crookhawk]

ghey!


blaeuhahi

[UKBoss44]

thats because the underlying issue of religion is why many people shun Christcore or HXC as isay when making fun of it

but your opinion of christianity obviously comes from experiences outside of the music. youre arguing that because the religion is bad then so is the music. the question isnt about what your experiences have led you to believe about christianity and its music, but what effect the music has had on the religion.

[ForeverDelayed]

Why should i accept them if they dont except me
Why should they accept you if you don't accept them?

"An eye for an eye leaves us all blind." - Ghandi

If you want to criticize people for not being accepting, you should start by leading by example. Don't sink down to their level, show them that you're better than they are by backing up your talk. If you can't do that or you're not willing to do that, then you're just as bad as the people you criticize.

[ForeverDelayed]

Not trying to bash anything, just using it as an example. And you make a good point with the Christianity as a religion argument, but I think people definitely see all religion as being all the same, which as you said is not true.
Okay, sorry I assumed. I'm just so sick of the fundamentalist bullshit mentality that says Catholics aren't really Christians. The Catholics I've known (real Catholics, not the ones who only go to church on Christmas and Easter) have been so much more genuine and loving in their faith than the people I've known who go to hellfire-and-brimstone Bible-believing rolling-in-the-aisles churches.

And yes exactly, all religion is not the same, and people make the mistake of thinking it is. The goal of a religion (any religion) should be to make you a better person. If it isn't doing that, then either that's not the right religion for you, or that particular religion is crap. But if it is helping you to become a better person, then who are we to say anything? Everyone likes to point out all the horrible things religion has done over the years, but it's not cool to point out the good it has done. Religion itself is neutral, what people do with it and how it affects people determines whether it is good or bad.

[offtheropes]

i think there's a difference between religiosity and spirituality. religiosity to me, in the context of the bible, is the difference between the pharisees and jesus. the pharisees were people who knew the texts, but knew it for knowledge. to me, jesus talked about interpersonal relationships and an overall care for people. your opinion may differ, but that's cool.
i totally agree with foreverdelayed on the whole "catholics aren't christian" debate. good people are good people and that's where spirituality and religiosity also differ. love is love in all religions and tolerance is the same. each religion has their own form of extremism, which in the end is all based on hate.

[ForeverDelayed]

i think there's a difference between religiosity and spirituality. religiosity to me, in the context of the bible, is the difference between the pharisees and jesus. the pharisees were people who knew the texts, but knew it for knowledge. to me, jesus talked about interpersonal relationships and an overall care for people. your opinion may differ, but that's cool.
i totally agree with foreverdelayed on the whole "catholics aren't christian" debate. good people are good people and that's where spirituality and religiosity also differ. love is love in all religions and tolerance is the same. each religion has their own form of extremism, which in the end is all based on hate.
I totally get what you're saying, and I agree. But the thing is it's not about Jesus, it's about Christianity. While Jesus might have been very much about people, relationships, personal spirituality, society, politics, etc, what grew up around his followers became an institutionalized religion. Doesn't mean it's bad, just means it's different than plain spirituality. A spiritual person can go on whatever whim they feel the spirit directing them on, but a religious person is (at least to some extent) restrained by the rules and observances of his religion. So as long as we're talking about Christianity (and in this case it appears everyone has been) then you have to look at it from the religious angle, rather than some more vague concept of spirituality, even if that at certain times goes against the things Jesus said and did. Does that make sense?

Catholic mystic Thomas Merton once said something to the effect that the extremisists of each religion are closer to other extremisits of different religions than they are to the nominal members of their own religion. When you stop and think about it, he's 100% right. Most Muslims aren't terrorists, most Christians don't bomb abortion clinics. But is there really a heck of a lot of difference between Al Qaida and Westboro Baptist?

[crookhawk]

Why should they accept you if you don't accept them?

"An eye for an eye leaves us all blind." - Ghandi

If you want to criticize people for not being accepting, you should start by leading by example. Don't sink down to their level, show them that you're better than they are by backing up your talk. If you can't do that or you're not willing to do that, then you're just as bad as the people you criticize.


eye for an eye is wat they beleive so fuck em im doing wat they do to us(being those with open eyes) and dont bother quoting me cuz im not revisiting this thread

[alex.parent]

eye for an eye is wat they beleive so fuck em im doing wat they do to us(being those with open eyes) and dont bother quoting me cuz im not revisiting this thread

I'm quoting you anyway because I think it's kind of ridiculous for you to say "that's what they believe." You are generalizing every single person who is a Christian. That's not what I believe, nor what any of my Christian friends believe. So, no, you are wrong, that's not what "they" believe.

And as far as music goes (to bring this back to the real discussion). It must be making music better, look at how many Christian bands are on warped tour alone this year. It's making an impact, weather you like it or not, and lots of people recognize it and like it.

[offtheropes]

And as far as music goes (to bring this back to the real discussion). It must be making music better, look at how many Christian bands are on warped tour alone this year. It's making an impact, weather you like it or not, and lots of people recognize it and like it.


HOWEVER, do not mistake quantity for quality. just because there's a lot of something doesn't make it better.

[ForeverDelayed]

I'm quoting you anyway because I think it's kind of ridiculous for you to say "that's what they believe." You are generalizing every single person who is a Christian. That's not what I believe, nor what any of my Christian friends believe. So, no, you are wrong, that's not what "they" believe.

And as far as music goes (to bring this back to the real discussion). It must be making music better, look at how many Christian bands are on warped tour alone this year. It's making an impact, weather you like it or not, and lots of people recognize it and like it.
Your first paragraph is spot on. But I'm quoting you and not him since he claims to not be coming back. But yeah... I don't know any Christians who believe such things, and if you consider me a Christian then I don't believe it either. In fact I would go as far as to say you can't really be a Christian in the literal sense ("follower of Christ") if you believe that, because Jesus specifically said that we have heard "an eye for an eye" BUT that he was comanding us to do the opposite - the whole "turn the other cheek" thing. If someone claims to be a Christian AND preaches "an eye for an eye" then they seriously need to examine their belief system, because it is completely at odds with the person they claim to follow.

As for your second paragraph, I don't think the number of Christian bands on Warped says anything about the effect of Christian music. As offtheropes said, it's about quality not quantity. But not only that, you have to look at it within the bigger context of trends within the music industry. Today's Christian bands have worked really hard to blend in with the mainstream, to the extent where sometimes it's pretty hard to tell who is Christian and who isn't. The music industry in turn has become much more accepting of Christian bands than it once was. Twenty years ago you had people like Stryper who threw Bibles into the crowd and you had every mainstream media outlet calling them idiots for doing so. Today you have bands like Underoath who sound pretty much the same as their mainstream counterparts and are very open about their struggles with faith, and you have mainstream media outlets falling all over themselves over people like Sufjan Stevens who are open about their beliefs. The number of Christian bands on any given tour is more an indication of the changes in the music industry than it is the impact of Christianity or Christian music.

[wtfmatt]

Even though I really dislike most christian rock, it -does- helps to get more 'youth' into the religion.

[offtheropes]

Twenty years ago you had people like Stryper who threw Bibles into the crowd and you had every mainstream media outlet calling them idiots for doing so.

ah ha! i haven't heard stryper's name in a while. good one.

see, i agree with most of what you said. however, i will argue that it's the job of any belief system to remain relevant to culture. i love what underoath and emery do. they share what they believe, but at appropriate times and in an appropriate manner. i saw that band this providence one time and during their set, they went on this rant about jesus and how he loves us/they love him kinda stuff. it seemed pretty preachy to me and i don't really think that the whole "street preacher" thing is very effective.
i'm not saying that people should be quiet about their beliefs, but there are appropriate times. people don't go to the movies to be interrupted halfway with a news brief, right?

[ForeverDelayed]

however, i will argue that it's the job of any belief system to remain relevant to culture.
I won't disagree with this at all. I just think that the whole concept of sacred vs. secular is running contrary to cultural relevance. How can you stay relevant if you cut yourself off from the culture at large? For me, being culturaly relevant means this - there is no "Christian music," only Christians making music. There is no "us vs. them" dynamic, everyone believes differently and by cutting yourself off from those who don't share your beliefs you end up preaching to the choir and driving away the ones you want to reach. And as for the music itself, God is the creator right? So the best way to glorify him is through creation. Christian music should be at the forefront of every musical movement, always pushing boundaries and being innovative, while at the same time being sincere and honest about things. Christian music that does all that is not only relevant to the culture, it's essential. All throughout history you've had Christians who were at the forefront of their fields, they shaped western culture as we know it. But these days it's a lot easier (and more marketable) to copy whatever is trendy, throw in some positive lyrics, and talk a bunch of shit in interviews. When Christian musicians get back to shaping culture instead of being shaped by it, then we won't even be having this discussion.

[PubeyLewis]

Ok as a Christian, and a punk I really really despise most Christian music. The problem is the lyrics suck, the music is sub-par and generally makes me actually question if there is a God. (that was a joke)

Christian hardcore is helpful if the bands are good. Good Christian bands that are down to earth are hard to come by. Plus there is the whole thing about marketing Jesus seems kind of funky. The problem is that American Christianity has become a social club that is segregated and hate fueled. The good news is we can change it.

I heard a guy shane claiborne said that the duty of the church is to remind people that yes they are ugly but they are also beautiful. If Christian hardcore is honest and makes some kid that doesn't fit the typical "churchy" mold then yah it works.

The sad thing is that I think that a lot of sub-par bands are big in Christian music industry only because they talk about Jesus and not on their quality of music.