An interesting thought.

[lew_1987]

I was watching the news earlier, and a commentator was talking about the SNP's (Scottish National Party) taking Labour's seat in Glasgow East, and relating it to Labour's position nationally. Basically, he said that the Government no longer 'represent' us, like they used to; instead they manage us. I think he's right. Thoughts?

[TeachBirds2Fly]

I was watching the news earlier, and a commentator was talking about the SNP's (Scottish National Party) taking Labour's seat in Glasgow East, and relating it to Labour's position nationally. Basically, he said that the Government no longer 'represent' us, like they used to; instead they manage us. I think he's right. Thoughts?

Well politicians are still elected on the views and policies which the people want. Anyway isn't that what good politics was always about, who can manage the economy or manage the people the best? If you look at the success of the SNP (although I don't agree with them on a lot) but you could say their success is due to their ambition and ability to represent Scotland more accuretly rather than merely manage.

[lew_1987]

Exactly. Another thing he was saying, that I forgot to mention was... The government used to change to suit our needs, whereas now we're being asked to change to suit the government's needs. I think that sums it up perfectly.

[TK]

I wish I knew about foreign policies and governments, sadly, I'm an idiot when it comes to them.

[TeachBirds2Fly]

Exactly. Another thing he was saying, that I forgot to mention was... The government used to change to suit our needs, whereas now we're being asked to change to suit the government's needs. I think that sums it up perfectly.


Don't really know what you mean by that, but a lot of people no longer demand from the government and are disingaged from politics altogether. If you look at the Glasgow vote there was a 42.25% turnout with around 26,219 votes cast, that is such a poor result, people argue that democracy no longer holds worth if the vote is below 50%, however I would prob say that the people who are not voting, prob hav not looked at the policies or understyand the arguments from all parties, they would just vote for some one becasue their father/mother did.

[lew_1987]

Don't really know what you mean by that, but a lot of people no longer demand from the government and are disingaged from politics altogether. If you look at the Glasgow vote there was a 42.25% turnout with around 26,219 votes cast, that is such a poor result, people argue that democracy no longer holds worth if the vote is below 50%, however I would prob say that the people who are not voting, prob hav not looked at the policies or understyand the arguments from all parties, they would just vote for some one becasue their father/mother did.

This is also true, but people tend to become apathetic about government, because they are told in the papers that 'everything is bad'. Seeing as for most people this is their only source of their opinion on government and current affairs, they choose to believe it out right and therefore they believe they don't need to do anything else about it apart from read the papers and then moan about the situation at work or down the pub with their friends.

[lew_1987]

I wish I knew about foreign policies and governments, sadly, I'm an idiot when it comes to them.

You could probably apply it to the American government too, but maybe to a lesser extent.

[TeachBirds2Fly]

You could probably apply it to the American government too, but maybe to a lesser extent.

Yeah in America for what I have seen, it goes from two extremes, large parts of the US have voting down at around 20%, but then if there is an issue they protest and start doing something about it, The UK is so subdued when it comes to these sort of thing, apart from the Iraq war which saw the largest EVER protest in the UK with hundreds of thousands protesting, but the government just ignored it so don't really know what my point is lol. But there are large groups like 9/11 truth and right to own guns groups who are very passionate about their cause, you just dont see that here.

[lew_1987]

I agree. I think most kids just don't give a shit about it over here. They're too busy getting wasted at 13 and getting knocked up.

[Post-me]

We have never ever had a highly politicised populace in the way France do.

You really think french people are highly politicised ? Maybe more than the UK, I don't know, but I don't think they're politicised.. They have strong syndical movements in some categories of profession but that's all, they don't massively vote-- except when they're finally scared 'cause some scary fascist dude may be their next president, like in '02.

[AnarchyintheUS]

I think he's right, Labour have lost the plot. Every minister they put on Question Time, Sky News, The Daily Politics, whatever... they sound like fucking robots doing management speak.

They should stop wasting time coming up with patronising slogans and relaunches every week and get the fuck out.

[lew_1987]

Yeah, I think Labour are really falling apart, and it's time for them to leave.

[lew_1987]

I heard this morning that Gordon Brown is proposing huge tax cuts (including fuel duty), in a ploy to keep Labour in power.

[TeachBirds2Fly]

French Revolution? Hugely powerful union movement? About half of all significant modern philosophers are French.

Voter turnout was 85% in the last election. We couldn't get that if we paid people to vote.

WRONG! France has a shit union movement at only 9% membership levels, thats below the US with 13% and is the worst level in the entire industrialised world! what are you talking about?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_tra_uni_mem-labor-trade-union-membership

Also the ideals of the French Revelotion were crushed long ago after the Paris Commune of 1871 which was a revival of the French Revolution ideas but was wiped out by the army and everyone involved was slaughtered.

[TeachBirds2Fly]

I heard this morning that Gordon Brown is proposing huge tax cuts (including fuel duty), in a ploy to keep Labour in power.

so will you be voting Conservative at the next election? if you don't mind me asking

[lew_1987]

so will you be voting Conservative at the next election? if you don't mind me asking

I've not decided yet. I would have a couple of years ago (if I was old enough), but I think David Cameron is a load of hot air and only says things to counter Labour's policies, or what he thinks the public want to hear, rather than what he believes is right for the country. I think if he actually got in he wouldn't have a clue what he was doing. Plus theres the whole thing about him riding to work on a bike and then having a car following with all his documents. I don't think I can forgive him for that, haha.

[TeachBirds2Fly]

lol and the webcam thing (get it... webCAM as in Cameron, how do they come up with this stuff?). I would never vote Conservative being scottish from a trade union family etc... but don't like SNP as like being part of the UK. But also dislike Labour over their image, war, policies etc...

[lew_1987]

I think when Labour originally came in I disliked them a lot because of my family being loyal Conservatives, and so I kind of just went on my Dad's opinions (I was young). But now I can look back and see that in the first 4 years they did a decent job, but after that it was dreadful. And Gordon Brown is a terrible Prime Minister, as I knew he always would be.

Whilst I agreed with invading Iraq originally, the way it has been handled has been shitty and has basically taken any credibility away from the actions.

[lew_1987]

I do history, no need for lectures. Irrespective of the course the revolution took it is evidence of France's very politicised past. Britain has never had any kind of significant revolution, never had a strong communist prescence, never been strong on philosophy or political thinking. We are a much more pragmatic people.

Would you not count the Peasants' Revolt? Or are you referring to more recently than that?

[AnarchyintheUS]

I heard this morning that Gordon Brown is proposing huge tax cuts (including fuel duty), in a ploy to keep Labour in power.

Won't work, Murdoch wants Cameron now, the Murdoch Press, and Sky News will be all over this with "desperate" and "cheap ploy" headlines.

And even if The Mirror and the Beeb try to paint this as brave and wonderful, I think the 10p tax U-Turn (and Crewe and Nantwich) shows even some of the staunchest Labour supporters are way too cynical now to buy into this.

[AnarchyintheUS]

They are still a strongly unionised/left wing country. For example their second biggest party is a socialist party, they work seven hour days as opposed to eight.


Didn't Sarkozy just abolish the 35 hour working week?

53% of French voters put him in power knowing this would happen.

[TeachBirds2Fly]

They are still a strongly unionised/left wing country. For example their second biggest party is a socialist party, they strike more often than almost any other western nation, they have strong labour laws, they work seven hour days as opposed to eight.


I do history, no need for lectures. Irrespective of the course the revolution took it is evidence of France's very politicised past. Britain has never had any kind of significant revolution, never had a strong communist prescence, never been strong on philosophy or political thinking. We are a much more pragmatic people.

What about the English Civil War? (or the English Revolution as it's called) Or Guy Fox? or before that the entire history of political struggle to form the UK? or more recently the suffragette movement? The Winter of Discontent? We are just as political. Also the labour party used to be very left, and people didn't want a communist revolution there was no foundation for it.

Also Philosophers, have you heard of: John Staurt Mill, David Hume, Adam Smith, Thomas Hobbes, Francis Bacon, John Locke, Mary Wollstonecraft = only the foundation of western philosophy (and don't come back and say actually ancient Athens was).

Also France Labour laws are a joke they never delete anything so it's thousands of pages of regulation and it's really hard to fire people so no one hires young people in the first place, starting a buisness in France is one of the hardest things to do in buisness. But they do get 5 week holidays.

[TeachBirds2Fly]

Most political philosphers have been British (apart from Rousseu), most others were not political philosphers but philosphers of the mind e.g. Satre, Decarte. They were not political philosphers!

[lew_1987]

I mean like the Russian Revolution, French Revolution, American Revolution, Nazism, Mussolini's fascist.

Revolutions that shook the world. Arguably the closest we came was Henry VIII's split from the Pope.

The Magna Carta? That brought us a step closer to democracy.

[Nevuk]

I mean like the Russian Revolution, French Revolution, American Revolution, Nazism, Mussolini's fascist.

Revolutions that shook the world. Arguably the closest we came was Henry VIII's split from the Pope.
That split was pretty major as it helped to remove the catholic church's power and is likely what lead to the depoliticization of the church. Of course, like all ancient history it was just so he could have sex... or something.

[lew_1987]

That split was pretty major as it helped to remove the catholic church's power and is likely what lead to the depoliticization of the church. Of course, like all ancient history it was just so he could have sex... or something.

Well it was... pretty much. Henry wanted to divorce his wife, but the church wouldn't let him. Being a King and all, he did a big fuck you to the Catholic church and made his own church. Not bad.

[Post-me]

They are still a strongly unionised/left wing country. For example their second biggest party is a socialist party, they strike more often than almost any other western nation, they have strong labour laws, they work seven hour days as opposed to eight.

The second party may be the Socialist Party but that's only since they took a center-left way.. Like british's Labour Party, they're really moderate, and they're still way behind the first party (Sarkozy's UMP) which is a right-wing party. They strike every week but win barely nothing and the 35h are in danger since 2006 and they do not mobilize properly to maintain their socials accomplishment.

They do have 3 or 4 communist party but a lot of people just make fun of them...