Auto-Tune

[chipdip18]

Is Auto-Tune ever acceptable? If so, when? If not, why not? How can you tell if an artist uses it? Let's try to not make this a bashing thread. Discuss the ethics of it.

[versus_god]

Reminds me of the Brady bunch episode where Greg becomes Johnny Bravo.

[theguy77]

auto-tune is a cop out. sing like you mean it in the studio. if you cant sing on pitch then why are you a vocalist? granted its important to get the pitch tight especially for harmonies but most people with the capabilities to sing on key can manage it if they really focus.

[ShimmerAndSpill]

For quick recording jobs I think it's ok, but long term studio projects it shouldn't be used.

[Chris Fallon]

If you're T-Pain and you can't really sing well but are on every rap/r&B pop song... then it's pretty much your lifeblood.

[EchoPark]

There would not be any band release on any major or big independent record label that does not use auto-tune.

[Tyler Dumont]

auto-tune is okay when used for correcting small mistakes while under time constraints. It's also good for brainstorming for good backup harmonies.

Anyone who doesn't see the actual advantages and the good sides to it, doesn't understand how recording goes these days.

[Carlo Marx]

Anyone who doesn't see the actual advantages and the good sides to it, doesn't understand how recording goes these days.

you mean the advantages it has to record labels? so that now they can sign any talentless hack and mold him/her into whatever image the label so desires, have them sing whatever songs their label thinks will sell records, and earn money for they label? I'm sorry, but auto-tune is always a cop out. The imperfection of the human voice is what makes singing beautiful.

[CrenshawPunch]

Robert Plant never used auto-tune. So no one has an excuse now.

[absolutecrunk]

Thursday could use some serious auto-tune.

Say what you will about passion, dude's voice still sounds like someone deflating balloons to me.

[miketrondson]

So far, this is the first thread I've ever read where everyone who posted was completely correct.

I believe most bands that use, have singers who can sing really well. It's there as a cop out for some artists (I See Stars, Alesana). But I think for the most part it works out for a much neater recording.

T-pain doesn't use auto-tune. He actually IS a robot.

[SanePsychotic]

I'm not a fan of auto-tune and never will be. Personally I don't believe it should be used - if you want your voice to sound right then work hard to get it right.

[chipdip18]

I'm not a fan of auto-tune and never will be. Personally I don't believe it should be used - if you want your voice to sound right then work hard to get it right.


Haha i love this response, because it just makes me think about how much harder bands have to work now to make a living off touring and recording albums etc., and in a world where everything is about ease and convience, less and less people want to do that.

[ReadyForAction]

auto-tune is okay when used for correcting small mistakes while under time constraints. It's also good for brainstorming for good backup harmonies.

Anyone who doesn't see the actual advantages and the good sides to it, doesn't understand how recording goes these days.

qft

[ForeverDelayed]

I think it really depends on whether or not you see yourself as a studio entity or a live entity. The whole debate surrounding autotune is pretty similar to the debate surrounding overdubs a generation ago. I mean, why should a band layer on all these extra guitar tracks, right? If you can't perform all of them live, then you should write a different style of songs that doesn't require tons of tracks. And it takes away from the rawness of the recording. Yada yada yada... With autotune you're hearing the same thing.

Musicians excell at either the studio end of things or the live end of things. If you're someone who is going for technical perfection and huge orchestrated sounds and layers and effects and soundscapes and whatnot, then I don't see how a little autotune would be a bad thing. Crank out that perfect studio creation and don't be ashamed of it. There is an art to recording, and the studio is an instrument. But if you're more of a live musician, then you live and die by your tricks. If the focus of your band is its live show and not its recordings, then you shouldn't do anything on an album that you can't pull off live. And then you have those rare bands that manage to do both, Radiohead creates these ridiculous studio creations that they could never pull off live, but they reinterpret them in completely different ways live and have a reputation for putting on a great show.

But with all that being said, there's not really anything wrong with not being technically perfect, and I think that's what this current crop of musicians doesn't get. Screw up a little and you want to fix it with autotune? Sure, go for it. But if you're just not a good enough singer to survive without it, then why try to disguise yourself as a great singer? Find other ways to make up for it. Like someone else said, look at Robert Plant. Not a good singer at all from a technical standpoint, but an amazing frontman, full of charisma and energy. You don't have to be technically perfect if you truly have talent.

[SickOfStars]

solution: play in a hardcore band and yell

[CstrzRock]

Auto-Tune is acceptable in techno and electronic music. I has a robotic effect which many of those types of artists aim for. Listen to Eiffel 65 or any club artist nowadays.

[x togepi x]

auto-tune is a cop out. sing like you mean it in the studio. if you cant sing on pitch then why are you a vocalist? granted its important to get the pitch tight especially for harmonies but most people with the capabilities to sing on key can manage it if they really focus.

this isn't true at all. what if you happen to be sick when you're in the studio? It's not as if you can just be like "oh well guys, we'll just record when i'm not sick anymore, you guys at the studio do rainchecks right?" you yourself admitted in another thread that you have a hard time hitting notes after a long time (i think it's the tuning thread).

autotune is meant to fix a few small parts so that whatever you've done sounds as good as it could. that isn't to say people who can't sing should be using it, but just because people abuse it doesn't mean it's a cop out.

[SanePsychotic]

Haha i love this response, because it just makes me think about how much harder bands have to work now to make a living off touring and recording albums etc., and in a world where everything is about ease and convience, less and less people want to do that.

Well it's really the people who work hard (as well as being innovative) that deserve to be heard. I wouldn't think that everything would be worth it (as much) if you didn't have to put a lot into it.

In regards to auto-tune, I understand using it for small things here and there, but personally I wouldn't use it. I look down on those who use it for almost their whole albums, not select parts of certain tracks. But it should be stated that things can be edited without auto-tune and I think that while it may be harder, it's a cooler (i.e. more interesting to me) way to do it.

[thespearkid]

I personally don't like it when every single note is perfectly on pitch. Dats not punk rawk.

[x togepi x]

yeah you can edit it without autotune but that can take forever to get it perfectly, and when you're paying by the hour, I'm not entirely sure you want to spend a ton of extra cash that you, being a band member, probably don't have trying to get one little thing done when there's an easy fix.

[SanePsychotic]

I think it really depends on whether or not you see yourself as a studio entity or a live entity. The whole debate surrounding autotune is pretty similar to the debate surrounding overdubs a generation ago. I mean, why should a band layer on all these extra guitar tracks, right? If you can't perform all of them live, then you should write a different style of songs that doesn't require tons of tracks. And it takes away from the rawness of the recording. Yada yada yada... With autotune you're hearing the same thing.

Musicians excell at either the studio end of things or the live end of things. If you're someone who is going for technical perfection and huge orchestrated sounds and layers and effects and soundscapes and whatnot, then I don't see how a little autotune would be a bad thing. Crank out that perfect studio creation and don't be ashamed of it. There is an art to recording, and the studio is an instrument. But if you're more of a live musician, then you live and die by your tricks. If the focus of your band is its live show and not its recordings, then you shouldn't do anything on an album that you can't pull off live. And then you have those rare bands that manage to do both, Radiohead creates these ridiculous studio creations that they could never pull off live, but they reinterpret them in completely different ways live and have a reputation for putting on a great show.

But with all that being said, there's not really anything wrong with not being technically perfect, and I think that's what this current crop of musicians doesn't get. Screw up a little and you want to fix it with autotune? Sure, go for it. But if you're just not a good enough singer to survive without it, then why try to disguise yourself as a great singer? Find other ways to make up for it. Like someone else said, look at Robert Plant. Not a good singer at all from a technical standpoint, but an amazing frontman, full of charisma and energy. You don't have to be technically perfect if you truly have talent.

This is a good response.

[bobby runs]

Robert Plant never used auto-tune. So no one has an excuse now.
Have you heard the BBC Sessions CD?

Listen to it and tell me the dude needs to lay off the alcohol

and

Nowadays I feel it make it sound crisper but that's all it should be used for. Or to teach the vocalist to sing better

[SanePsychotic]

yeah you can edit it without autotune but that can take forever to get it perfectly, and when you're paying by the hour, I'm not entirely sure you want to spend a ton of extra cash that you, being a band member, probably don't have trying to get one little thing done when there's an easy fix.

This is true of artists that have to use other people's studios. But those who have thier own (wether it's a shitty studio or it's actually very nice) it just might be something they'd do. I mean, there's not that many artists now who would do things like that since it's easier to use auto, but I'm sure that there's some people who are weird (like me) who'd want to do things the hard way.

[x togepi x]

This is true of artists that have to use other people's studios. But those who have thier own (wether it's a shitty studio or it's actually very nice) it just might be something they'd do. I mean, there's not that many artists now who would do things like that since it's easier to use auto, but I'm sure that there's some people who are weird (like me) who'd want to do things the hard way.

I'm not sure who uses autotune in their own studio since studio tricks generally require someone who knows what they're doing behind the soundboard.

[SanePsychotic]

I'm not sure who uses autotune in their own studio since studio tricks generally require someone who knows what they're doing behind the soundboard.

Some select people who play music acutally have an idea of what they're doing in regards to recording and manipulating things. Not many, but some.

[x togepi x]

Some select people who play music acutally have an idea of what they're doing in regards to recording and manipulating things. Not many, but some.

well sure, but don't you think those people would be smart enough to realize that you can't solely rely on studio tricks to sound good?

[lew_1987]

I don't think it's ever acceptable. It takes the feeling out of the songs sometimes, and its just generally a cop-out. If you can't sing, don't bother.

[SanePsychotic]

well sure, but don't you think those people would be smart enough to realize that you can't solely rely on studio tricks to sound good?

Yeah, but most likely those are also the people who just like to screw around in the studio just for the hell of it.

[CrenshawPunch]

Have you heard the BBC Sessions CD?

Listen to it and tell me the dude needs to lay off the alcohol

and

Nowadays I feel it make it sound crisper but that's all it should be used for. Or to teach the vocalist to sing better


Listen to Since I've Been Loving You, and find me a modern artist on this website that can kill it the way Plant and Page did on that song. You won't be able to.

[ForeverDelayed]

This is a good response.
Thanks...

[Anthony Lutz]

What bands come to mind that obviously use it? Either way, if you can't sing with the voice you record with, then you have no business singing out on tour.

[ForeverDelayed]

What bands come to mind that obviously use it? Either way, if you can't sing with the voice you record with, then you have no business singing out on tour.
As much as we all hate to admit it, I'm guessing probably about 90% of everything released on major labels and maybe a quarter to half of everything on bigger indie labels uses Autotune. But as I said before, it doesn't bother me, because in my opinion recordings and live shows are two completely different entities.

[lew_1987]

As much as we all hate to admit it, I'm guessing probably about 90% of everything released on major labels and maybe a quarter to half of everything on bigger indie labels uses Autotune. But as I said before, it doesn't bother me, because in my opinion recordings and live shows are two completely different entities.

Personally, I think that being in a studio is a big enough advantage. Being able to stand still on the spot, hearing the other instruments perfectly in your ears, having superior equipment to a live setting, superior acoustics, etc. etc. It already gives enough of a different feeling to a show without autotune, to me.

[SLoT]

There is nothing wrong it. Ever. It may get annoying if it's used in the Cher effect, but other than that it's acceptable. Your voice is your instrument and sometimes you need to fine tune things. For those of you who play instruments you should be smart enough to realize it's the same thing as a tuner in some cases. Other cases where they over due it, you could say the same thing for bands that use effects pedals. There's nothing wrong with distortion, wah, phaser, flanger, etc... why can't a vocalist use auto tune?

I know it seems like I'm mad or something, but I couldn't be mad about this. I was just simply stating my opinion. Word.

[KatieKutthroat.]

Used in small amounts is acceptable, in my opinion, for fine tuning and such. The artist wants to make the recording sound as crisp as possible, while that isn't a priority when performing live.

[theguy77]

There is nothing wrong it. Ever. It may get annoying if it's used in the Cher effect, but other than that it's acceptable. Your voice is your instrument and sometimes you need to fine tune things. For those of you who play instruments you should be smart enough to realize it's the same thing as a tuner in some cases. Other cases where they over due it, you could say the same thing for bands that use effects pedals. There's nothing wrong with distortion, wah, phaser, flanger, etc... why can't a vocalist use auto tune?

I know it seems like I'm mad or something, but I couldn't be mad about this. I was just simply stating my opinion. Word.

hahaha i tune my guitar by ear too. and i can get it damn near perfect, with MORE precision than your run of the mill tuner -- some of the cheaper tuners arent precise enough and will tell you you're on pitch when its still not quite there. also if you tune by ear you can tune your guitar in a way that works with any slight intonation problems it has to find the best compromise.

[theguy77]

this isn't true at all. what if you happen to be sick when you're in the studio? It's not as if you can just be like "oh well guys, we'll just record when i'm not sick anymore, you guys at the studio do rainchecks right?" you yourself admitted in another thread that you have a hard time hitting notes after a long time (i think it's the tuning thread).

autotune is meant to fix a few small parts so that whatever you've done sounds as good as it could. that isn't to say people who can't sing should be using it, but just because people abuse it doesn't mean it's a cop out.

well sure this is a valid point but i personally would feel very disappointed with myself to use auto tune, especially after ive proven to myself through home recording that i can sing damn close to perfect notes by myself when i buckle down and focus on it. also as others have said the slight imperfections in your voice are what give integrity and feeling to the song.

[handlikesecret]

too much of a good thing is bad.

that's my opinion on the matter.

[x togepi x]

well sure this is a valid point but i personally would feel very disappointed with myself to use auto tune, especially after ive proven to myself through home recording that i can sing damn close to perfect notes by myself when i buckle down and focus on it. also as others have said the slight imperfections in your voice are what give integrity and feeling to the song.

it's not about buckling down and focusing when you've been trying to record the same part for a long time. one thing i learned pretty quickly in my recording classes was that there's a certain point musicians get to where the more takes they do, the worse take gets.

"integrity" and "feeling" really make no sense. You're telling me that if you recorded a take, and it was nearly perfect (in that, every single part sounds how you'd like it to sound, not necessarily technically flawless), but there was just one part that sounded really bad, that you'd feel so horrible if you autotuned? because that's such a ridiculous standard. there are so many reasons a talented musician has problems hitting notes in the studio that's out of their control.

besides, most studio recorded vocals end up having some sort of reverb and compression on them anyway. how exactly are those effects okay but autotune isn't? You all are acting like i'm suggesting let's use autotune like britney spears does, when i'm saying it's just another effect a band can use, like distortion or delay. you can't rely on a kick ass delay pedal to make your band sound good (sorry Anthony Green), but you can put it to good use.

[SLoT]

hahaha i tune my guitar by ear too. and i can get it damn near perfect, with MORE precision than your run of the mill tuner -- some of the cheaper tuners arent precise enough and will tell you you're on pitch when its still not quite there. also if you tune by ear you can tune your guitar in a way that works with any slight intonation problems it has to find the best compromise.
Some tuners i've used fucking suck. a kid who never heard music could get it closer than a shitty tuner. before i had a keyboard i tuned to whatever i thought E was (because i dont play to cds or anything) so i have a bunch of songs recorded with a tuning i cant get back. it's awkward having to sing complete steps up now.

[theguy77]

it's not about buckling down and focusing when you've been trying to record the same part for a long time. one thing i learned pretty quickly in my recording classes was that there's a certain point musicians get to where the more takes they do, the worse take gets.

this is why during vocal recording you take breaks and record each song in increments -- first do the verse, short break, chorus, short break etc. and then when you finish the song take a 10 minute break before recording the next one. it can extend the stamina of performance quality. though there always will still be a point where the more takes you do the worse it gets but in that case if its at all a possibility i'd just attempt recording something else for the rest of the day and finishing up another day.

"integrity" and "feeling" really make no sense. You're telling me that if you recorded a take, and it was nearly perfect (in that, every single part sounds how you'd like it to sound, not necessarily technically flawless), but there was just one part that sounded really bad, that you'd feel so horrible if you autotuned? because that's such a ridiculous standard. there are so many reasons a talented musician has problems hitting notes in the studio that's out of their control.

the ways in which people hear integrity and feeling in music are highly subjective. but based on my preferences, if you just fixed a note or two it might not strip this aesthetic from the song too much. however i hate when the whole thing sounds robotically accurate. the only places its really important to get the frequencies like exact are in harmonies becuase slight pitch differences are much more noticable

besides, most studio recorded vocals end up having some sort of reverb and compression on them anyway. how exactly are those effects okay but autotune isn't? You all are acting like i'm suggesting let's use autotune like britney spears does, when i'm saying it's just another effect a band can use, like distortion or delay. you can't rely on a kick ass delay pedal to make your band sound good (sorry Anthony Green), but you can put it to good use.

the reason i dont accept this argument is becuase other effects modify sound only and are strictly components of making a mix sound "clean", or to add this cool sounding effect to what has already been performed well. auto-tune doesnt work like that because it modifies performance, unless you're using to have that techno sounding cher effect.

[x togepi x]

this is why during vocal recording you take breaks and record each song in increments -- first do the verse, short break, chorus, short break etc. and then when you finish the song take a 10 minute break before recording the next one. it can extend the stamina of performance quality. though there always will still be a point where the more takes you do the worse it gets but in that case if its at all a possibility i'd just attempt recording something else for the rest of the day and finishing up another day.

this doesn't really change anything that i've said. even if you're doing short parts of a song, don't short parts of a song for hours and still not getting it right is still wasting a lot of time and money. deciding to just record something else for the rest of the day also wastes a ton of time because it requires setting up the studio again for other instruments, which in itself is going to take a very long time.

this process could serve to not only piss off your bandmates for wasting studio time, but might also irritate the studio technicians, who then, might not be as perceptive as normal because they're so frustrated that they have to go out and tear down all the equipment in the isolation booth that they set up for you to do your vocals and have to set up a bunch of new mics, amps, etc, to record something else, when the fix could be as easy as autotuning one small part.

one thing people working in the studio really don't like is people acting like they're rock stars and messing with the process. your insistence that they don't use a basic studio effect can come off like that. while this might not matter 9 times out of 10, making a studio ally might help you out when you need an extra thirty minutes to finish up a song, but ran out of studio time. you get in well with the staff, they might let you stay that extra thirty.

the ways in which people hear integrity and feeling in music are highly subjective. but based on my preferences, if you just fixed a note or two it might not strip this aesthetic from the song too much. however i hate when the whole thing sounds robotically accurate. the only places its really important to get the frequencies like exact are in harmonies becuase slight pitch differences are much more noticable

but i'm not suggesting let's use it all the time on every note. i just pointed out that it's a studio effect. you don't hear people being like FUCK DISTORTION IF YOU USE IT, YOU'RE NOT A REAL MUSICIAN, yet you can use distortion or lots of reverb/delay to cover up sloppy playing.


the reason i dont accept this argument is becuase other effects modify sound only and are strictly components of making a mix sound "clean", or to add this cool sounding effect to what has already been performed well. auto-tune doesnt work like that because it modifies performance, unless you're using to have that techno sounding cher effect.

This is not true at all. Reverb and compression don't just "modify sound only", it changes the performance because it makes the vocals sound better after they've been recorded, just like an autone would. dry vocals sound weird in a studio, reverb/compression makes them sound better. much like this, missing a key note makes the song sound weird, autotuning it makes it sound much better. I'm not sure how you can't accept this argument.

[hockeyguitar99]

I think that it depends how they use it. If a band is using it because they don't have a singer that can hit the right notes, then they shouldn't use it. However, if a band is using to distort the voice, like the secret handshake where he wants his voice to sound abnormal. I think that in this case, its okay. So it all really depends on how they are using it.

[guitarpickheart]

solution: play in a hardcore band and yell

Yelling/screamo is actually pretty hard to do. I've done some and even if no one can tell if you're in tune, you still have to be able to scream/yell for the entirety of a show.

What bands come to mind that obviously use it? Either way, if you can't sing with the voice you record with, then you have no business singing out on tour.

qft.

hahaha i tune my guitar by ear too. and i can get it damn near perfect, with MORE precision than your run of the mill tuner -- some of the cheaper tuners arent precise enough and will tell you you're on pitch when its still not quite there. also if you tune by ear you can tune your guitar in a way that works with any slight intonation problems it has to find the best compromise.

I tune my guitar by ear most of the time and I can get it pretty accurate too. It's not hard to learn, it just took me maybe 3 months of tuning it to a keyboard. My tuner broke less than a month after I started but I've come to the conclusion that keyboards are better anyway because you can learn to tune by ear faster.

[theguy77]

this doesn't really change anything that i've said. even if you're doing short parts of a song, don't short parts of a song for hours and still not getting it right is still wasting a lot of time and money. deciding to just record something else for the rest of the day also wastes a ton of time because it requires setting up the studio again for other instruments, which in itself is going to take a very long time.

this process could serve to not only piss off your bandmates for wasting studio time, but might also irritate the studio technicians, who then, might not be as perceptive as normal because they're so frustrated that they have to go out and tear down all the equipment in the isolation booth that they set up for you to do your vocals and have to set up a bunch of new mics, amps, etc, to record something else, when the fix could be as easy as autotuning one small part.

one thing people working in the studio really don't like is people acting like they're rock stars and messing with the process. your insistence that they don't use a basic studio effect can come off like that. while this might not matter 9 times out of 10, making a studio ally might help you out when you need an extra thirty minutes to finish up a song, but ran out of studio time. you get in well with the staff, they might let you stay that extra thirty.

this makes sense but im making my points on the hope that it doesnt take me hours to get a single part haha. however if youve recorded all the vocals to a song in 30 minutes and have a bad part, and use autotune because you dont feel like doing that small part of one song in maybe 3 more takes, i view that as a cop out, and dont know why you wouldnt just go back in there and record it right.

but i'm not suggesting let's use it all the time on every note. i just pointed out that it's a studio effect. you don't hear people being like FUCK DISTORTION IF YOU USE IT, YOU'RE NOT A REAL MUSICIAN, yet you can use distortion or lots of reverb/delay to cover up sloppy playing.

i dont though and that ties into my opinion. i always feel like you should play it right and not lazily cover up your mistakes if its at all an option to redo it. simple.

This is not true at all. Reverb and compression don't just "modify sound only", it changes the performance because it makes the vocals sound better after they've been recorded, just like an autone would. dry vocals sound weird in a studio, reverb/compression makes them sound better. much like this, missing a key note makes the song sound weird, autotuning it makes it sound much better. I'm not sure how you can't accept this argument.

right but the vocals sound dry because of the recording. notes sound off because of the performer. if its something the performer can consciously fix i feel it is for him to fix it. he cant make the vocals sound wetter, thats the fault of the digital path from microphone to computer.